Test Match Special - The art of spin bowling

Episode Date: April 27, 2026

Mark Chapman, Sir Alastair Cook, Jack Leach and, Phil Tufnell discuss the attitude towards spinners in England, how franchise cricket has affected the art of spin and whether England know what they want from their spinner heading into the summer.How do you become a spinner? Is it down to the player or coach? Jack Leach and Phil Tufnell give insight into how they found themselves becoming spinners and, whether a batters’ attitude changes as you get older and as they get older.As a spinner, what do you need from your captain? Is it blind faith? Is it protection if you are going for runs? The panel dive into the mind of a spin bowler and how they can adapt their game.TIME CODES: 00:00 Intro and London Marathon 01:50 County Cricket’s substitute rule 04:03 The art of spin bowling 05:30 Captains and spinners 15:32 The nuance of spin 17:30 How did it start? 25:05 English attitude towards spin 33:26 When were you at your peak? 35:00 What if you started as a spin now? 38:20 The mental side 41:40 What do England want this summer?

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Welcome to 5 Live cricket then. We're talking spin bowling with us, Jack Leach, England and Somerset Spinner, former England spinner Phil Toffnell, and London Marathon Runner, Alistair Cork. Is it, this isn't a typo in front of me here. Three minutes, three minutes, that would be a typo. Three hours, five minutes and 15 seconds. It was the five minutes.

15 which got away chaffers. Oh no, were you trying to break three hours? I, yeah, this is my second attempt at it. I had to go last year and I was 316 and I said right, I'm going to try and break 3. So didn't quite do it, but an amazing day and

so many people out there supporting, but unfortunately, the time doesn't lie and I wasn't good enough. It was hot though, wasn't it? Well, you don't want to start getting into that excuse-ridden thing of runners where something's not quite right. You know what you need, don't you?

To do it again? Well, yeah, but you need a pair of those shoes. Oh, they would help. I think, I think not even, not they would have helped me on it, isn't it? Yeah, it's just, yeah, I thought I'd have a good crack at it, and I wasn't quite there. Sorry, Tuffers, I let you down. Cookie, you were so confident, mate. We was right behind you.

Did you hit the wall? Yeah, the wall you know very well of all with the running you did. I was going to say Tupper's When you said you were right behind him You mean that figuratively, don't you? Yeah, yeah In a car, in a car I want to be right behind it

Well done Sir Alistair, hard lines Jack, how are you? Good, thank you Yeah, I think Toughers, that's why we became spinners, wouldn't it? So he didn't have to run much. Absolutely.

Not that I want to bang on about this for the whole of this season, but do you think it's easier to run a marathon than understand county cricket substitution rule, Joe. Oh, yeah, I would say definitely. I'm not a fan of that rule. It's, I mean, it seems made up as they go along, doesn't it?

Yeah, I don't know how it was come about, but for me, call me old school, but I think part of the long format of the game is that kind of being able to keep going and that's why you do all your training in the winter and you're trying to get one up on your opposition and then to be able to bring someone in sort of halfway through for me doesn't seem right. Unfortunate things happen and it's kind of how you get through them and things like Wokesy going out at the end last year

and stuff wouldn't sort of happen. So I think that's the sort of magic of cricket sometimes is 11v-11s. That's my personal opinion. But obviously things are changing. Well, would you scrap at Alistair? Because it just seems so. difficult to

I was never a fan when it first came in I of course there's always that thing while you lose it why is it the only sport you have an injury saying the third over of a bowler and for the next four and a half days you're hampered as a side

obviously in football or rugby you swap them but you know at the minute the rules it just clearly doesn't work you can't have a bowler coming in even for a legitimate reason you know three days I think we've had one example where a a fresh bowler comes in on the fourth day.

So he hasn't bowled him at all in the game. And suddenly he's bowling and he bowled the side of victory. No fault to his own because that's just the rules. So they are going to stick with it. You know, there's going to have to be a few adjustments. Like, I mean, I would scrap it because I think there's too many variables in the game. So it's amazing how many people have used the replacement already when it's there rather than just having to, you know, there's an example of a batsman saying,

I couldn't grit the bat properly and he was allowed a replacement. well, I'm not quite sure that that should be allowed and certainly if they're going to keep it, it should only be allowed until the first innings is finished. The whole idea of the show is the art of spin, the future of spin, how you start off as a spinner, how you captain a spinner, all subjects that we will get into. Let me take you back then.

And a lot of the spin questions, I suppose Alistair will go to Jack and Tuffers, but feel free to bring your own spin expertise into this at any point. Well, I have actually got three for 13 bowling on spin in the first class game. There we go, exactly. I might as well set it up for you right at the start. You absolutely let me walk straight into it, and me being who I am, couldn't resist the fact that three for 13 when it was ragging square and people played for spin.

I actually had three for one at one stage, and then bowled three of the worst balls in my third over and got taken off. And yeah, it was an easy game, Jack. Yeah, but you do joke there a little bit, though, chappers, but the captain has a big role to play, you know. With the seamers, it's a little bit straightforward, really, you know. If you've got a captain that doesn't sometimes necessarily think spinners are any good, if you know what I mean.

You know, well, they're not a great part of the side. Oh, crikey, we'll just let the spinner have a little go and over before lunch sort of thing. You know, it does become a bit hard work. So the captain has got a huge role to play. Well, let's deal with the captaincy first then. We'll come back to something as you brought it up. What have you always wanted, Jack, as a spinner, from your captain?

I think tough has kind of mentioned it is empathy of like the role, I guess. So you're usually only one, there's one of you in the team compared to maybe four seamers who can kind of all bounce off each other. so you need sort of that captain on your side sort of helping you out, I think, and also kind of seeing you as an aggressive option in the team, I think, and just the way they kind of manage you through spells, I think. I'd sort of talk about my first experience of Stokesy as captain, and sort of I was used to having maybe mid-off back

and sort of getting into my spell, and he would sort of know, say, now we're having him up, we're having him up, and I get hit over the top, and he would be there sort of smiling and clapping, like it was exactly part of the plan. And I think if you buy into that as a spinner and feel that backing from the captain,

that can go a long way. I think the other time I had it was Chris Rogers, who kind of at Somerset, and we played on some helpful wickets that year. And I think he sort of put a lot of faith in me, which was sort of the first time that I'd maybe had that in my career and that was just really sort of exciting to kind of play a more of a key role in a county team. Do you both think therefore, and you go first, Jack,

that you are the most vulnerable member of an attack? Yeah, maybe. I think, yeah, that kind of individual aspect, but also if you're playing on a wicket that's doing a bit, it for the seamers, then I think spatters really see you as a chance to target you and getting those first few overs right, I think is really important because otherwise you can sort of bowl yourself out of the game a little bit. I think there's, yeah, lots of obviously different situations that you're going to be bowling in, but sometimes, yeah, if it's a seeming wicket, I think it is

hard for captains to know when to kind of bring you on and how to kind of bring you into the game, I would say. offers? Yeah, I mean, the first thing Shane Warren always said about coming, you know, the first thing of a spinner, when you come on to bowl, is to be kept on. And so those first two or three

overs are absolutely crucial. I can remember when I sort of, when I played, I didn't necessarily didn't necessarily see myself as a weak link or the most sort of vulnerable link. If anything, I saw myself as something

as the person who could turn the game, if anything. Did you feel, Alessie, you had to captain your spinner differently? I suppose that depends on who the spinner was, does it? Well, it does is your captain in Monty, Panasar and Graham Swan, there'll be a very different, a very different people to captain. I think, you know, there's always, when we all talk about English and English spinners, I think at the minute it's an incredibly hard role to do,

and there's a number of factors for that. Firstly, the wickets that are played on is, you know, the drainage system at the minute means that you cannot have wickets which deteriorate like they used to do. So when it started off with, you know, a placid wicket which then turned later on in the game, wickets don't do that anymore. Whether it's the drains,

they've got to keep more moisture in it because it drains so quickly. They actually start wet, so it nips around a bit more. So spinners are kind of not used that well, not much in the first. And it doesn't deteriorate. Like they used to look at, I think Durham today chased 360 and two down. Like, you know, the pitches are getting better and better. And I'm convinced that's due to the drainage system. I'm sure groundsmen are shouting at me, say, makes no difference.

So I think spinners have it tough that way. I also think that the modern game of how people play has changed how spinners have to bowl, because hitting sixes now, and I know this is probably disrespectful, not disrespectful, it was changed with tough era a few years ago. Like, if the man was out of the boundary, you weren't allowed to take him on as a batter. Now it's a proper shot. It's a legitimate shot.

The man's out on the back. Their batters are backing themselves just to hit the ball 60 yards over them. So a spinner does have it tough. And then a young spinner comes into a game and you think there's an opposition tactic, you're going to put him under pressure. So for spinners to survive, they need so many skills. just to get him into the game these days because people are attacking them.

And the wickets are allowing that to happen. I think back, if the wickets do turn, and as Jack has said already on this thing, when Chris Rogers captained him at Somerset, when they were playing on spinning wickets, you can't attack like you can do on flat wickets. So a spinner has to have so many options and variety in how he bowls just to stay in the game to survive. and I think Graham Swan is a great example of that. He played in North Ants when he first started on spinning wickets.

Him and Monty and I think it was Jason Brown. They played three spinners. And he took loads of wickets. But he then moved to Trent Bridge and he said he learnt to bowl spin on a non-spinning wicket. And that was the development of his game to become arguably one of England's best ever off-spinners or best ever spinner.

And there's so much learning for spinners to do. And that's why you have to be really, really patient with them. How, you go back to what you said about Ben Stokes as well, and there's an element there, Jacket, of patience, but also an element of understanding, isn't there? And that's the bit of, you know, yes, we are going to bring mid-off up or whatever it may be, and you may go for some runs, and therefore there may be grumblings elsewhere,

but you have to, you in your head have to ignore the grumblings because your captain has given you a certain plan. Yeah, and I think in test cricket that was more possible because the wickets were very good and they were like five day games. So there's more time in the game for there to be a period of runs and you take that to try and get the wicket. So I think that kind of works a little bit more in that longer game. Whereas if you're playing on a county wicket that's set up for seeming first innings, it never really is so quick and it's moving so fast. that you can't afford five overs for 25 from a spinner, because then that's, that changes the game,

the way the game's going. So that's where it becomes hard for a captain to maybe in those kind of games bowl the spinner and give them a way into the game. Which captain got the best out of you, Tuffers? Well, it's funny, I've just listened to the end bit there saying that sort of like bowling to how the captain wants you to, Not many sort of captains really did that to me.

I sort of like had my own plans. I know when you first come in and you first start playing test cricket and you first start playing county cricket, especially as well as when you're a youngster, you know, you need that little bit of guidance about fields and about how to sort of like go about things and what have you. But then really, you know, all right, if you were told to bowl over the wicket, that's what you did.

But they didn't tell me how to go about thinking out. a player, you know, that was kind of my decision and sort of my craft and my mouse, really. So, you know, give me the ball and, you know, we'll have a chat about it. We'll work together as it and, you know, leave me to do the bowling a little bit. Obviously, when things started going a little bit wrong, you know, you start looking for a bit of help and what have you, but, you know, it's really down to you. You're the one with the ball in your hand. How hard is it, Alistair, and then we'll move away from the captain bit, but how hard

is it to not make the spinner feel like plan B if nothing else is working? Well, in England, not that easy, certainly if the ball is swinging seeming. I've had some great examples, you know, where, well, it clearly, we went to India in 2012. We won that series, and the reason we won that series is because our spinners outbold, India the spinners, you know, Monty and Swanee. were just brilliant. And, you know, they were, it was so easy to captain them because you were saying to Tuff, as Tuff as just said,

I just left them to it because that's when, you know, they are, they do. Spinners work over Batsman, I think, probably in one sense, a bit more than seamers do. You know, they've really got to use their skills to do it. And on spinning wickets, they use their variations, probably more than the seamer does. You know, when it's seeming,

they just literally bowl the same, try and ball the same ball over and over again. They have it. spinners, they're so varied. So on spinning wickets, you know, you just let the spinners, you let the spinners work their magic. They, they create the chances. I think the skill of a, of a captain when it's not doing anything, is really important

then, you know, to make an A-fill part of the game and they're not just bowling for the second new ball, or they're not just bowling to hold up an end. But guess what? Tactically, there is times where, you know, you have to, you throw the ball to toughers, they throw the baller jack and say, mate, just keep it tight for a bit. You know, you're bowling for the other end. And that's why the skill of a spinner has actually been able to recognize those moments. And actually a spell of seven overs for 21 or 25, no wickets, but not going, tying up an end,

is actually just as valuable sometimes. Well, the skill to do that is when it's ragging square and you're creating chance after chance. Such a varied role being a spinner. Yeah, no, there is indeed. The one thing about being a spin bow I think actually when it's spinning a bit That is when you do just try and hit the spot When you've got to use your little bit of now

Is when it's flat Otherwise then they can come for you a little bit You know but the whole art That I then sort of got as I got a little bit more mature And a little bit older You've got to make the batter think That you're sort of one step ahead of them You know what I mean

You've got to make them sort of think And that's a little bit of showmanship And a little bit of ooh ah you know what I mean? And perhaps bowling a ball that you think, you know, doesn't necessarily mean anything, but it's just going to keep them trapped in the crease if they're looking to come down at you or something like that, or they're looking to get on top of you. So you've got to sort of make them think that I know exactly what you're doing.

I've got your sort of worked out and sort of pull them around a little bit. And I think that that's the art. Is there a challenge to holding up an end, Jack? No, I like that challenge definitely. it's a role that still is definitely important. And I think, like, I was thinking actually that it used to be a positive thing to be boring, and that was a good, you know, sometimes you had to be boring.

And now it's kind of like, oh, you're not, nothing's happening. And so I think there's maybe a little change in how people view that kind of spell. But at the right time, I think it is still really very very, valuable to the game and sometimes you're just trying to give the seymers a rest and let them sort of recharge their batteries and and obviously meanwhile you're always trying to take a wicket you're trying to work out a plan to try and get a wicket but sometimes it's you know you are trying to just bowl a boring spell and see what comes of that and actually sometimes batters make

mistakes through through that rather than bowling a magic ball how did it all start for you Jack? Well, I've always bowled spin from when I can remember. My dad kind of decided that I was not, I wasn't very big kid and I wasn't going to be bowling seam and I wasn't bowling very fast. So yeah, it was, it was always spin really from when I can remember. Remember one net session, I got a shiny ball in my hand and I started bowling left arm swing and I got a few wickets and I went, I was going home with Dad and I said, oh, I think I might be a swing bowler. And he said, no, you're not.

You're not going to bowl fast enough. So, yeah, it was always spin from when I can remember and sort of going down to watch Somerset as a youngster and Mushhtak Ahmed was the spinner. And, yeah, so lots of memories down there, sort of watching spin. But when you took those wickets as a swing bowler, Yeah.

Did that seem more fun at the time? Yeah. I think it was just different to what I'd done up until that point. So yeah, it did. But yeah, I love bowling. I mean, apart from that one occasion, I've always loved bowling spin. I think back to club cricket and kind of, well, the game's changed so much, I think, about youth cricket then.

and actually if you just bowled it on the spot, I didn't spin it a lot when I was younger. I mean, I still don't spin it a lot now, but you put it on the spot and people would defend. And it was kind of like MCC manual, people would defend. You know, you watch youngsters coming through now, 15-year-old kids, and they're like got all the shots because they've watched Joss Butler and Ben Stokes

and Owen Morgan and all these guys and Alastair Cook, obviously. So I think the game has changed so much in terms of that And actually growing up it was all about, you know, line and length And, you know, a little bit of spin here and there And people really respected you. So that was kind of my memory, so kind of growing up. I always, from my recollection of certainly watching a lot of youth cricket, Alistair, even a decade ago when my son would have been 13

and playing representative cricket, spinners would always have quite a lot of success at that time. Spinner, and I would go even back that decade to back Jack's point up, that maybe the array of shots still wasn't there for 13-year-old batters as they are now because they're being exposed to a lot more. But young spinners, particularly leggy, seem to have a lot of success in junior cricket. Oh, it's light-uped in there as a young batter.

As a 13-year-old batter, you've got this spinner just lobbing them down there. You just think, I'm going to have a bit of that, and you can't help yourself. Suddenly you realize actually you haven't got the power of a Josh Butler, the guy you've been watching on TV or, I don't know, Chris Gale. So you go for the big shot and you just cloth it to mid-off, and Jack Leach has got another wicket. But absolutely, this pace off the ball is a mate in club cricket, in junior cricket.

It definitely does seem to be the way of, of taking a lot of wickets, or it did seem to the way I've taken a lot of wickets. I wouldn't know what the stats are now over the last, whether that's changed. But in every doubt, I do remember that in my club captains back in the day when I was 30 years ago,

that when everyone was getting whacked, they'd always bowl the slowest bowler they could find because, you know, they'd always slogging up in the air. Did you not find that tougher's growing up, that you had a lot of opportunities? Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I started off as a scene bowler. I was a fast and nasty,

and I can remember, a chap called him a Jack Robertson. He used to play for England and he went to a net and he showed me how a bowl spin. And he said, he said, well, he said, there's a lot of seamers out there. And he said, you got a very nice run-up, very nice rhythmical action.

And in fact, when things used to start sort of going slightly wrong in the action, not that I even now like to want to talk about it, the yips or whatever, you sort of then practiced just bowling little inswingers, you know, just to get yourself through your action. and go through the process of it and then, you know, sort of get the, get the ball spinning down and the change of grip and what have you.

But I look back and when I bowled, you know, I don't reckon that I bowled virtually two similar balls in and over sometimes, you know, whether that be a little bit of natural variation, a little bit of, you know, flight and guile, which I think has slightly gone out of the game. and a little bit of change of line and a little bit of change of length and you know and you pull the batsman around a bit the one thing that you've got to have with that is a control

of line and length so you know if you're going to bowl that slower one a little bit wider outside off stump it can't be short you know what I mean it's got to be on that length and you've got to have the confidence to then do that if you're going to bowl one a little bit slower

to try and get them you know perhaps leading edge one you know what I mean you've got to put it in the right areas otherwise, you know, it's not going to work. It's going to end up like a slow long hop, you know what I mean? And so, I mean, if I was a spin bowler now, I'd be looking to blow the front pad off. I can understand it.

You know, people now, DRS and the way people are giving it out, LBW. But I like, you know, you're talking about Chris Gale, you know, and these guys whacking it out the park and Josh Butler. But, you know, I've watched the likes of Mitch Santner. I think he takes it off. He goes wide. He goes wide of Boston. You've got to have the confidence.

and your ability to mix it up but put it on where you want the ball to go because otherwise it does get a little bit tricky you end up bowling fullies and long-ups. Going back to when you were bowling as a kid as well, Jack, did you find, and it brings analysis point, that you would cause more problems, I don't know, say between 11 and 14,

but then maybe once people got into their late teams, the batters understood the art of playing spin bowling more. Maybe a little bit even late. to, yeah, but... A year later. Yeah, I would say, so, yeah, maybe when I got to men's... I enjoy playing as much men's cricket as possible from a young age because actually guys thought, who's this youngster?

I'm going to smack him, and actually you tried to, like, Tuff as talks about, you know, pull the pin out and get them stumped. And stump was always my favourite dismissal growing up. So, yeah, I think you kind of learn those things playing maybe as a youth player, but playing in men's cricket. because they try and sort of take you on a little bit more. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. BBC Radio 5 Live.

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and the sort of attitude or the English attitude towards spin, partly through maybe the surfaces that we have here. But what do you say? think historically our attitude to spin has been? Well historically it seems as take more wickets and spinners is in our country. It's very very conditioned based. So what have we

wanted our spinner to be? Well I think we've had some great spinners like toughers, you Derek Underwood, Graham Swan, Monty Pamisar just to name a few I can remember. So and Jack Leach of course, sorry buddy, is the fact that it's harder to break through as a spinner because the conditions are in favour of scene bowling for the majority of the period. Of course there's the odd time where it's dry and sunny for a bit and that's what I know it's argument about we don't produce any spinners.

Well it's really hard to do that where a lot of the things are against spinners. you know a lot of the pitches and i keep going back to the pitches because and it is the fact that they have changed over the last you know 20 years due to a huge number of factors but you don't get ragging wickets that often with in cadi grains deteriorate and guess what when they do get ragging wickets our spinners take wickets there's no shadow of doubt about that um but there's just less of them because actually the rule you get rewarded certainly in the English game for being a seamer who who bowls 82, 83 miles an hour and hits the area. It's always a bean like that.

And we get found out a little bit when we have to go to other parts of the world. But other people come to this part of the world and they get found out, they get found out a little bit playing against a swing and seaming ball. I think it's changing, I suppose, as, you know, the games getting more, you know, moving around probably more and more than it was. But, you know, it's such a funny one because everyone said, oh, we don't play spin. great. Well, it's, we do play spin pretty well, but we don't get to practice as much as the Indians against spin or the Pakistanis or the subcontinent players, because that's their bread and butter. And I don't know how you change that. I don't know how you change that at all. It is what it is. And then it's down to the players, the spin bowler to try and

make it out. It's certainly not easy for them in the minute. But isn't that the challenge of sport? Isn't that that, that is what the challenge of it? I don't think there's, there is no we're not going to sit here in this hour or ever and there's a golden ticket to this answer of why we're not producing more spinners a lot of things are against them. Alice has sort of said there, Jack, you know, it is what it

is where we are with spin bowling and it's not easy. And Jack Carson, the Athletic, Sussex's Jack Carson, one of his quotes is it's easy for a spinner to develop a bit of a woe is me mentality, especially when it's this tough at this time of the year, when much first

class cricket is played, but that doesn't help you get the best out of yourself. Yeah, very true. Yeah, I completely agree with it. There's always narratives around it. I think, you know, I think the short format as well, I think if you're a young player now, not, and this isn't just spin, this is all areas, and it's not just England, it's all countries, but with the short format now, you've got to be growing up, growing up, wanting to play all formats, because I just think, like, you. you've seen players go from 100 or the IPL and get into the test team through that way. So that's now a legitimate way to kind of get into the longer format of the game.

Playing the longevity in playing county cricket, I feel like I was lucky that I was able to do that and I really targeted test cricket. But now I don't see that as a way for young players to kind of get the best out of themselves on the cricket field. I think they have to be looking at all formats and then that's really difficult to then get the volume of bowling in the longer format that someone like myself would have got or other spinners where I played minor counties three-day game minor counties have played

had a long second team career before I played in the first team so there was a lot of bowling done before I kind of making it into the first team that's just not the case for young players now they have these opportunities to play in these competitions. And that's just the game now. And I think that kind of adds to the challenge, I guess. Yeah, it's finding a way. It's finding a way for a spinner in this block of six games,

whatever there is now. And it has been actually quite warm, isn't it? So it's not the pitches probably have, you know, they haven't nipped it all over. As I said, there's been some high scores. But it's just about finding a way of somehow getting in their game. And that's not taking, we can't expect spinners or, you know, leach here this time of the year to be taking five wickets in a game. But he's absolutely right.

Spinners have to bowl a huge amount of overs. And it is a patience thing with development and the bowl himself. But, you know, certainly the thing which stood out with me watching someone like Graham Swan bowl. And I obviously saw him at the, you know, from 28 onwards more than I did was a 21 year, a 22 year old. he found ways to get in games as a spinner. And that is in all surfaces. And that is from repetition of bowling. That is from bowling in all forms of the game, in lots of things.

And I love the fact that Jack went off and played minor counties cricket because that's where you learn. And spinners in particular where there's less toll and their body can bowl a huge amount of overs. But spinners this time of year find a way to get in the game somehow. Can I just add to that as a say? Like, just about, it's a question really to cookie to the spinners that you saw and also toughers in how you practice and like the best way to practice. Because I think if you're not getting enough bowling in games,

it's important as how you use your time in the nets and the best spinners, how they practice. And I love listening to Tuffers on his mentality to how he tried to bowl spin. But whether there was anything in practice that he did to kind of do that, was he always bowling at batters or other things? Because that's really interesting. If that's if you did practice, I don't know. He might have just.

A little bit. I'll tell you what I did. What I did a lot was visualise, usually sat in a pub. You know what I mean. But when I look back, when I look back, I really did do a lot of actually looking at the player and visualising how I was going to get him out. And so you get into your rhythm in the nets, don't you?

And you go through a little bits and pieces and you bowl you this one and you bowl your slower one and you bowl your arm ball and all this kind of stuff. But you have to develop, and you're talking about a volume of work as a spin bowler. You have to develop, and that's why it's very, very difficult when you're young, and we're talking about captains and about how to help you with fields and what have you.

you have to develop a sixth sense when you bowl the spin. You have to kind of take them on a journey, if you know what I mean. And you can't do that sometimes by just running up and bowling in the nets because you get in your rhythm, it's coming out nice, lovely. So I was always sort of just sort of sort of thinking about ways and means about how to then, and techniques of players, what they look to do, how do they look to come at me, how do they look to defend, what do they want to do?

How are they going to try and put me off my game? You know what I mean? And I did that quite a lot, even though people think that I perhaps didn't, and I just sort of run up and had a bowl. But I did. I did that a lot. And that was through watching and sort of studying people

and the way they go about their business. When do you reckon then you were at the peak of your powers then, toughness? Because Matt Prime made the same point about Graham Swan last week, came into the test side early. He said he got chewed up, spat out, went back, I mean, Alicester talked about him moving from North Hans to

not, so, you know, did his time in county cricket and then when he was 30-odd really understood his game. Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's just not from bowling in the nets, because he wouldn't have been picked at that age if he was bowling full tosses and long-ops. It's about realizing how you go

about your craft, you know, and how you actually then try and impose that on the batter. Like I said a bit earlier, sort of make them think that you're one step ahead of them. You know what I mean? And that is, it's very difficult to sort of like explain really, but you have to then sort of trust, trust your judgment of what you think is the best way to go and get this

person out, you know, and sometimes it's bowling it tight, bowling it tight. And you develop that sixth sense and that only comes with time. I can remember when Mike, see, I was very lucky I had John Embry, Phil Edmunds, Mike Gatton, I played with the Middlesex. You know, and I can remember as a very young chap, sort of going, you know, you're the England captain. You know, you set me fields. You know what I mean?

I don't know. You know what I mean? He said, all right, well, I'll do it. But you've got to then get this in you, you know. And that takes quite a while, you know, because you don't quite have that. You've got to then, as Cookie was saying, find a way of getting into the game.

And that sometimes isn't just by putting it on the spot because putting it on the spot sometimes ain't going nowhere. If you were starting out now, both of you, Phil and Jack in particular here, with white ball cricket, what difference would that have made to you? Well, I was speaking to Liam Dawson, actually, the Hampshire game,

and he was saying how difficult he finds it going between T20 and four-day cricket. So I think it is a very good skill. Tuff has mentioned Mitchell Santner, and I think he is probably one of the best across the formats. And like, yeah, going between formats. And I think his change of pace and, you know, bowling slow and wide. And he's actually made his T20, I guess, his T20 strengths really work for him in test cricket as well.

And that's sort of real inspirational, I guess, to see as a spinner. and it's something that you're always sort of, I guess, aiming towards and trying to see what bits you can take from other spinners. But, yeah, I think it is a very big challenge. I mean, I haven't had to play much T20 cricket. So it's not something that I particularly know an awful lot about, but tough as have you got anything on that? Well, no, I was just going to say, Jack,

if you were to play a bit of T20 cricket, how would you sort of mentally go into that game? What would you be thinking? Would you be thinking, right, I'm going to try and tie them down? How would you then think about how you would make the impact? Yeah, it's a good question. I think my, so the opportunities that I have had have been not when we're playing sort of two spinners

and then the wicket is actually a little bit more helpful. So I feel like I still want to try and spin the ball. I think obviously you don't want to lose that as your main weapon, I guess, is like if the ball's moving naturally, then you've got a chance of beating them. I think the danger is going quicker and quicker and actually it can go further and further. So it would be trying to be,

I think a big thing would be my mindset towards it and trying to be brave in terms of, the things you talked about in the longer format is in terms of trying to work the batter out and trying to take pace off, put pace on, and try and mess with their rhythms I guess of them trying to hit where they're trying to hit. So that would be my thoughts.

Is that? Yeah, I didn't have to, yeah, I didn't have to deal with the reverse sweep so much in my time, thankfully, chappas, I think, which has been a right pain in the buck for the spin bowler. But even then, you know, because it almost has to take a fielder out of your armory sort of thing. But, I mean, even then with the reverse sweeps that's coming in, as you say, the changes of paces, you know, if you keep jamming it in, they're going to keep hitting you on the reverse sweep. You know, you've got to go up and down. You've got to go full.

You've got to go slightly short. You've got to kind of make sure that they just can't set themselves. And when they set themselves and they get in that position to hit, they've got something else in the back of their mind that they have to then contend with. Mentally, I must be intrigued. I'm intrigued, actually. When you do get pan for a few sixes,

which is inevitable in the modern day now in certainly in white ball game and even it's getting way more in red ball game how do you deal with that like leecher you walk back to your mark because spinners get hit for more sixes and seamers there's no doubt about it um what's your process of dealing with that um i think that was one thing um that i kind of quite enjoyed as a kid was like i would get hit for six and i'd try and bowl the next one almost slower and loopier and like try and draw them into um a false shot that way. So I think you have to enjoy,

like you have to find that weirdly enjoyable from a young age. I think it's actually got harder as I've got older probably to enjoy when you're playing with, you know, expectation and stuff and then you, you kind of feel like,

oh, I should be going at two and over or, and you sort of put that pressure on yourself. But I think you have to, when I'm bowling my best, is you sort of trying to lure them into something

and like I said earlier, my favourite dismissal growing up was stumping. So I try and keep that in my head. And actually to get someone stumped, you have to beat them in the air. And so trying to do that, again, be brave with your mindset to doing that. But I would say if it's the first you want to get into your over, because in T20, if the first two balls of the over go, you're thinking, oh, no, it's 36, isn't it? But has white ball cricket made it more?

about the pace of the delivery than anything else. With white ball cricket, you have got to vary line, length, pace virtually every step. Otherwise, they'll just sit there, get a solid base and whack you out of the park simple as that. And so you've got

to pull them around a little bit and you've got to try and, as you say, be one step ahead of what you're thinking and that only comes with experience. You know, you have to put yourself into those positions to then feel kind of what going to happen spin bowling it's all about you know nouse and you know feeling well for a start

off when you come on the bowl you've got to kind of find what the pace of the wicket is you know and so there's all these little extra things that are going through your mind how to build overs and how you're going to sort of like work to pull him around the crease and what have you so you know you know when you get tagged yeah it hurts that's for sure but you know you always think well okay i'll give you one or two and then you know i'll be the one that you know i'll be the one that say any off. That's why I like Tuffus' mindset

in terms of his long format in terms of still trying to bowl different balls in his over because actually a lot of my mindset is about bowling the same ball and I think then that makes T20 the shorter format harder because you are trying to bowl different

balls, every ball different length, different line, different pace. So yeah I think if you've got that mindset already to kind of vary things, obviously in four day you're probably varying it slightly less, but I think it's a good mindset to have. Tough as I think you would have made millions.

As we go into this summer, what do you think, Alistair, Engel want from a spinner? Here we go. Well, the goal. We'll go for everything. They want control and a person who spins it to take wickets. You want the complete

package, don't you? And he can bat and field. That'll really help us well because it balances the team. Yeah, where we are at the minute with England and the spinners And we spoke a little bit about how hard it is for younger spinners Or even spinners in general in England to find their way in the game They've got so many facets to learn That it is certainly not easy

I don't know which way they're going to go This England set up for this summer Because it's whoever becomes a new selector whichever way they go I'm intrigued I remember in 2014 after Graham Swan retired and Monty retired kind of

in their new ashes after that ashes we lost 5-0 we actually went for a mowing alley as our spinner batted at eight but he was at that time for Worrocks for Worcester a batter who bowled more than useful spin who then developed over a period of time

to be actually an excellent spinner for England in all forms and he was backed and backed and backed. But he was picked because there was no one else out there at that time, but because of his ability with the bat to influence the game. So

I'm intrigued to see which way they go. And there is not a quick fix on this spinning front. Because it does feel, Jack, doesn't it? That they want a batter who bowls a bit of spin? I think that makes sense if they feel there's not a spinner who's an

out-and-out spinner that's good enough at the moment to go for a spinner that that's a bit, especially if you're playing on some wickets that are in England, you know, hopefully it's doing a little bit for the seamers. And actually that might be a better option. So, yeah, I wouldn't, I mean, in the winter they went with Jacks and Bashir. I think, like, you could, I could easily see it being two in the squad. And they decide on, depending on conditions, whether they feel like they need that out-and-out-spinner.

who will play more of a bigger role or whether they can get by with a batter who bowls some spin. Jack, who is the best spinner in the country, in your opinion? You're playing the game. English spinner. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's hard because I haven't seen a lot of anyone, really, apart from... What about Jack Leap?

What about Jack Leap? No. I'd say, like, I spent a bit of time with Bash, And I really rate Bash. I think he's young, obviously, but I think he's got a bright future. And maybe he'll be a little bit like Swan. He came in early and he will have some time in County Cricket

and come good a little bit later down the line. But I've liked what I've seen from a lot of spinners. There's a lot of spinners that I look at a glimpse. I go, oh, they've got a nice action. But there's so much more to it, isn't there? Like, Tuff has spoke about in terms of the guy and they're kind of putting a spell together and knowing what's required.

So yeah, I wouldn't sort of, I sat on the fence, I'm not. No, but I suppose the interesting point about Jack's answer toughers is that nobody necessarily leaps out. No, well, absolutely. And you do take a little bit of time. And so I see that there's a huge opportunity.

One thing I will say is, is that I've never seen a really great side that didn't have a solid spinner, you know, it's all very well and good having a bloke coming in who bowls a few little bowl, you know, bowls a few offies or bowls a few left armours and what have you, combat. But out of all the great sides

that I've seen, all of them, or match winning, test winning sides, they've all had, you know, an out and out spin bowler. Obviously, if he can bat a bit, that's fantastic, you know what I mean? But you have to have one in your side. and even on green seaming pitches,

you know, you still have to have that change your pace. You have to have that in your armour if you want to be a great side. And I don't think that you can do that, not meaning to be rude to part, I know. Going back to your point, Alistra, I suppose. It does feel it's a more defensive role at this stage, isn't it? I would say so.

And certainly the balance to the side with actually your overall impact on the game is actually probably the way that England will go. I don't think Bashir will get that first go at it again. I think he needs that time away from the game. He's got, as Jack said, he's got the potential to be a very good spinner in terms of the pace and the heighty bowls at,

but I think he's got a bit of work to do. It's just how do they see this England side, how they see the role of the spinner. And I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued. There's a few options you can go with, but again, there's not one person in the minute, standing out going, he's guaranteed that you could ask probably 20 people who they would pay, and I reckon there could be 20 different answers.

Yeah. We will leave you there. Alistair, thank you. Phil, Jack as well. Thank you very much for being with us. Don't forget you can have every ball of this year's county championship on the BBC Sport website. Welcome to the Wayne Rooney Show. Wayne Rooney, Cake Hurd, and me,

Kelly Somers break down the biggest stories in the Premier League and beyond. He's gone in quite quick, but he hasn't caught him high. I just don't think it's the red cards. Plus, we'll hear the funniest and most outrageous stories from Wayne's career. I was going into positions and doing things I shouldn't have really been doing, but you do it because you feel like you have to, and that helped us drive on and win the FA Club. The Wayne Rooney Show.

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