Test Match Special - The Ashes: Bethell hundred provides belated bright spark

Episode Date: January 7, 2026

Jacob Bethell joins the pod after his brilliant maiden first class hundred. We get analysis from Michael Vaughan, Jonathan Agnew and Glenn McGrath including a discussion on the future of England coach Brendon McCullum. Beau Webster discusses his 3 wickets as a spinner and Usman Khawaja speaks ahead of his final day of international cricket. Plus we hear from World Cup winning Rugby Player Mike Tindall and World Champion equestrian Zara Tindall

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimetres and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Webster bowls to Bethel. He's down the pitch, swatting it into the onside. He's got it away. Out towards deep midwicket. There's the hundred for Jacob Bethel. The first, first class hundred in his career.

And it's come at a test match at the SCG against Australia. It's a brilliant innings from a very talented young man. So after four days of the Sydney test match, England still alive in this game, but it looks as though Australia are closing in on victory. England, 302 for 8, so England's lead is 119. The day belonged to Jacob Bethel, his first class 100. What a place and what a time to score it at the SCG in an Ash's test match and only a second Ash's game, 142 not out. at the close. Matthew Potts for company. England at one stage were 219 for three. Then they contrived a semi-collapse to leave Australia well placed for victory on the final day. Australia 567 all-out. Steve Smith, first man out today for 138.

Boe Webster. He's had a good game quietly. 71 not out and the last couple of wickets are going cheap. He stuck out for five and Boland for Nortso. Australia with a lead of 180. Crawley was out in the first over again to Mitchell Stark. Duckett made 42 Root, finalings the series out for six. Brooke 42 and that was the started the semi-collapse. Jacks heaving went out to Deep Midwiki for Nort's second ball. Smith run out in a mix-up with Bethel for 26. Stokes struggling with a groin injury off the pitch for most of the day came out. He was out for one and then cast nicked off to Smith for 16.

Michael Vaughn is here. is here. Let's start with Jacob Bethel. It's the right place at the start tonight, even though Australia look to be closing in on victory. Well, what's your assessment of Jacob Bethel? Well, it's the biggest smile that I've had on my face for many, many

weeks, and actually for a few years because what we've witnessed today has been something very special. And it's not that, you know, England of unearthed a young player, but he's played in a way that test match cricket has been played for many, many generations. You respect the ball, you have good

balance, you have a good technique. I don't think we talk about technique enough in test match cricket. The best players in the world who survived the longest, the Joe Roots, Steve Smith in his quirky way, but his head position is always spot on. And Jacob Bethel today, that was a technical masterclass, a masterclass in composure, calmness, to think that he came out there in the first over with, you know, England, 180 behind, he's facing Mitchell Stark and Scott Bonnet, and that was a tricky pitch. The ball was bouncing, the ball was moving around.

Of course he played and missed it a few, but the stroke play, when he got the chance to score, he didn't try and overhit it. For three and a half years now, we've seen England play some innings where they've always overhit the ball. Now, even Joe Root at times over the last three and a half years overhit the ball. We've seen a batting master class today from someone that let the ball come and just caress the ball. And with the powerful, these guys, and the bats are amazing.

He don't need to overheat it, just caress the ball on the floor. I didn't see him hit the ball in the air that often. He danced down and hit one over midwicked to get to three figures But he hit the ball on the floor It was a it was a throwback That's why I'm smiling Simon Because it's just giving me For a couple of years

I've thought oh am I wrong That test match cricket has moved on And you need to play in a different way And we should really kind of celebrate the fact That everyone needs to battle like Harry Brooke these days Well Harry Brook's a lovely player But I tell you what Give me a Jacob Bethel or Joe root

All day long in Test match cricket People will be saying Hold on a second Jacob Bethel has come out, he's made a hundred. Why hasn't he played in the whole series? Well, I'm going to let John answer this because he's come up with a very, very good point in the back and he can take it.

I've got a theory here. I think Jacob Bethel is a very lucky young man that he's playing now and didn't play at the start of last summer when Bazball was still mad. And I'm not sure he could have come out and played like that. But now he can. Times are changing.

And he's played a proper number three's testings there. Lovely footwork, right forward, right back. He didn't play a crazy shot at all. This is a youngster who's been picked largely on what he's done in T20 cricket. And he's completely changed his game. He's got a handful of first-class games behind him. You know he's never scored 100 and all that stuff. But he's completely changed his game.

He's remodeled himself to suit the occasion without any of that noise in his head, not any of that nonsense about going out and run towards Dane, whatever the stuff has been of the last. couple of years. I think he's lucky that he didn't play earlier in the summer. He can come in now when things are changing and play like that with none of that sort of outside noise or pressure.

He'll score runs at a good rate anyway when he has to, but I just thought that was a really beautiful innings and Michael's right. It's the first time we've smiled for a while to actually sit back and watch that and really feel proud. We'll jump down the corridors here outside the commentary boxes

for the last few weeks you've been shuffling into the ABC in our case or Michael to Fox and go in there a bit apologetically. No, I called his 100 on ABC Radio and did it really proudly. With tough as you think, there you go,

you'll see this lad in four years' time. There will be plenty of Australians, though, saying, where's he been? Yeah, but, you know, the one thing about leadership is, and I was saying to you on commentary, Simon, it's very important that you're loyal. And sometimes that loyalty

and kind of consistency of selection, you get blinded and you get too emotionally attached. to players and I'm not just pointing the finger at Olippo, but the technical side of Jacob today was so much better than what we've seen at number three. To survive at number three, you need a strong

technique and then you've got to have a real calm mindset because you're out there facing the ball is when they're fresh when the game's hot and you've got to have a real clear kind of game plan and the only way that you can have calm as I believe is when you've got a good technique because your technique looks after

you when you don't quite read the length of the ball you go back when you should before but your technique and your bat swing just looks after you. You know, your head position looks after you for those balls that you don't quite pick up as well. That's what we've seen today. Because it wouldn't have been that Jacob picked up then perfectly every single time, but that

bat flow, that head position, you know, leaving balls, getting under balls, the bouncy came, all right, I'll duck under. He wore one on his head. Now one flew off a leg. Brute of a ball. Brute of a butt. And then the next ball, guess what? Right back in behind it. Straight back, down the ground. It was a technical

master class, a real kind of strong mentality of calmness which surely sends the message to many in the English game and not just this group but I think there's many play in the English game back in county cricket and think oh the basketball ways the way they go you dance

down you run to pause the day and you play the reverse ramps the tricks that's the way you're back in the longest format and by the way he's got another gear or two to go up and the best players in the world when they've got five or six gears in test cricket this day in second and third because they just like batting and they want to bat for a

long period of time. There's no point in going into fourth and fifth because that's too risky. Harry Brooks gone into fourth and fifth again today. Far too risky. You know, just before he got out, Harry Brook, he gets the ball that spins back. But, you know, I watched him, Jacob Bethel gets a hundredth. Celebration, fantastic. And all of a sort of Mitchell, Stark Balls, Harry, starts dancing down, backing away. You know, it's been a lesson for Harry, actually, that to be consistent against the best bowl, particularly in Australia, you've got to calm down. He's going to have to calm down because he's offering too many risky shots, too many opportunities for Australia and they'll spread the

field and go, come and Harry, you'll make a mistake because you get bored. Harry, you're getting bored batting. Don't get bored batting when the conditions are in your favour. The ball's been going up and down and suddenly the partnership gets developed and you suddenly get bored because Mitchell's start puts a couple of fielders at cover point. He puts one back

and try and whack one over cover point. Just back, carry on batting. Bat for four or five hours and see where it takes you and that's a real lesson. We've had a youngster today. Joe Ruting the first in his gave a great lesson. Again, technique, bat for a long period of time, great mindset, not going up to fifth gear, just staying in second and third.

Today I hope it's a lesson to Harry that for him to bat and get big, big scores against the best in tough conditions, away from home in particular, just staying second and third gear for a long period of time. If you're in the right later on when you're batting with a tail, then go berserk. Got absolutely berserk. But great lesson from Jacob Bethel. We often see young players who have brought up on whiteball cricket, playing test cricket, and they do play the ramps and the fancy stuff.

and it's kind of like a modern test match innings is kind of what we've always become used to saying that little flick over the shoulder or whatever there's none of that, none of that at all he just played an absolutely traditional test match innings there there wasn't one bit of funkiness about it he just played absolutely beautifully every ball on its merits

you could actually could dust down every one of Geoffrey Boycott's favourite sayings and you could apply it to that innings I'll also say full credit to the management and Luke Wright and Rob Key whoever said right now he's going to bat number three last week I looked at what you're throwing him at three for

at the MCG on a juicy one I thought it was wrong but you know they've seen a lot more of Jacob than we have and they've gone now he's got the technique to bat at number three so full credit for them you know they've gone with it and now we can look down and go yeah we've got a number three

you know the last time I reckon that I've looked down at English cricket and thought oh I'm really confident of my number three is Jonathan Trott that's how far I'm going back when I've really looked and gone we've got a number three well I've looked down to down and thought hello we'll be calm

when Jacob's buying so have we got a new template from this England side that's developed over the course of the series and what does that mean for the current coach well it didn't happen with Brooke though did it that's a typical Brooke innings at the moment

got to 40 got out that's the way he's been playing I mean he hasn't changed at all I don't think so I mean it's people bats from like that who who are going to have to knuckle down and to change. I mean, I think Beth, I'll say fortunately, he's been able to go out there

without any of that stuff ringing in his ears. I think it's still ringing in Brooks' ears. I think he's still, I'm afraid, part of the old way of doing it and he's got to change. So is that way going to change? Does it have to change? I think, you know, thinking about the coach, Michael.

Well, he's got to change. You know, Bazma Cullum's got to change. You know, this team of not won a five-match series on his watch. Got nowhere near a World Test Championship final on his watch. Watch, not beating India, not beating Australia. They're the two series that you judged on, real big series.

Through the series away against him. The methods that Bazers brought, you know, and this psychology that he talks about, that it's about the top two inches and making sure that the mental side's right, well, actually, England, under him, have not won a big series, and under real big moments,

they haven't actually cope with the pressure. You know, you look at this series at the start of series, they didn't cope with it, they went two-nil down too quickly. So he has to be honest with himself. I think he can change. I do. I think if he's reasonable and not stubborn to understand that it's a learning process

he's relative to quite a young coach he hasn't really coached for many many years so if he's willing to accept that he needs to change the way that he approaches the game you look at some of the details about this England side you know the preparation's been poor we'll keep going on about that but it's been poor just fielding drills in the morning

I watch Australian poor they're a professional outfit I see Alex Carey down there every morning just doing those little drills little drills. I used to see Matt Pryor do those drills. I saw Alex Stewart for many years do those drills. I don't see Jamie Smith doing those drills. I see Australia taking a load of high balls. Every player, a load of high

balls. I don't see that from the England team. So the detail needs to come in for Basma Cullum to stay. And if he's willing to create that detail and accept that he's made mistakes and change the process in terms of the way that the team play, I have no problem with the combination carrying on.

But if it's going to be, oh, no, we're going to carry on, we're going to be a bit flimsy and, you know, going to be running towards the danger on a regular basis because no one's mentioned whiteball cricket yet you know whiteball cricket in 2025 we went backwards they've got a wool cup a t-20 world cup in Sri Lanka that's going to be big you know because a lot of the data-driven coaches now in white ball cricket the andy flowers the tom mood is they're winning because they they go through every attention to detail they look at it they go again and go what else because they want to have that one percent edge on any opposing team i want to seeing them with a little bit more of that

people will be listening this and saying hold on he's going to continue even though his methods have kind of been shown to fail here do you see it as likely that he will continue and would it be the right decision

well I can only allude it say football you know a manager Manchester United just lost their manager what did he go for he just wanted 433 or whatever his formation that's my formation if you're a stubborn coach and that's all you deliver well guess what you're going to get found out Baz McCullum's methods have been found out.

What worries me is that's the way he played the game? So therefore, can he actually become something else? Because that's the way he played. Yeah, he has wanted the England team. Again, he's wanted the England team to play the way that he played and the way that he likes the game to be played. And I think it's very hard. And in any international sports team,

if you just play one way, I think the opposition will find you out. I think that's what's happened against the better team. I think the Basbo way has been found out. But I think he can learn. and I think Ben and Baz can get together and I think the test team in particular can improve. Let's see what happens in the T20 World Cup because

you go back to the champion's trophy last year in the subcontinent when we went with a load of right arm quick bowl which got found it didn't win a game, got hammered in India with the same kind of approach. In your load of spin we were going pace on. So I want to see what happens in the T20 World Cup because it's all about detail now.

English cricket needs more detail. It needs a more professional approach. It needs to get away from this looseness absolutely no fine with players playing golf but this England side on this trip have been loose. They've been a loose cricket team and that's got to sharpen up and that looseness goes out on the pitch

and then it goes off the pitch. They need to be a little bit sharper and I think the management can carry on together as long as they're willing to accept that they need to change slightly. Yeah and it'll be very interesting I mean he'll be the second person that we interview tomorrow and that's going to be the line of questioning isn't it? Because it's kind of out there now it seems

that this is what's going to happen and that he will be approached by the chief executive and so on and there's going to be a review. But if Brendan McCollum wants to stay in the job, he will have to agree that they change their ways. And I think it's not a snobber's question, isn't it? Well, then Brendan, are you going to change tack? Well, it's very simple for me.

It's an easy conversation because you sit, Baz down and say, look, Baz, who scored hundreds in Australia? How did they score the hundreds? Joe Root, Joe Root, Jacob Bethel. How did they get them? Technical brilliance. calmness, composure, not dancing down trying to watch Scott Bowling

who's a wonderful bowler, leaving the baller, getting under, then the field spreads and you knock it around, spin comes on, knock it around, all right, dance down and hit one over the top because mid-on comes up. So the three successful innings that we've seen on the tour have been played by, dare I say,

test match batters. Another bit of, I mean, Mitchell Stark, wicket four times in the first over. What a surprise, he's out there loosening up, does a hole over, he's running in and bowling his first over for real at 90 miles an hour. You watch our fellas.

Joffar Archer's first over is about 83 miles an hour. They don't do it. But it's just such simple professional discipline, isn't it? I mean, what a surprise? You get found out. I think in this era of sport, like the England side, they've got some professionals in there and they work hard. But, you know, you get found out against some of these teams.

I watch Andrew McDonald on a regular basis. He's so kind of detailed. You know, he's coming up with strategies, plans, Alex Carey, up to the stump. I haven't seen one this tour where I've looked down gone okay that's cool that's good I like what I'm seeing that I haven't seen enough out there in the middle to suggest they've had some real strong meetings about what they're going to do out in the middle what about England's other batting today we talked a lot about

Jacob Bethel did they make the most of the situation that they eventually found themselves in I mean they were 219 for 3 I mean crawley you know you try and leave one early on but again it's stark he's loose he's in his ball swinging they'll be double duck it poor shot again that's that little limp sort of nothing dab outside the off stump he'll feel he's unlucky that he played the ball into his stump especially if you look at the shot it's highly surprising it did

a route got a typical a bole and brook we've discussed really nice little 42 and started to get loose and I don't know you described brook's dismissal backing away trying to force the offspinner yeah I mean it's the way Harry plays

but it spun a long way you know I think he was surprised by how much it spun so I'm not going to be too critical of that. Will Jackson What was that? I mean, we laughed because we've seen some remarkable. I mean, the podium for the worst shot at the tour is going to be strong. There's quite a few that got a chance of getting gold medal. I'd say that Jamie Smith

has obviously got the gold, but silver and bronze, there's a good challenge by a number of the England players, you know, runouts and... Just to explain, he came out, ahead of Jamie Smith, against Webster, the officer, and blocked the first ball, second ball clumps out into deep midwicket and he's caught by Cameron Green. Nice catch,

but what an extraordinary... The league was 36, I think, at the time. Yeah, I mean, I look at this batting line. I'm, I think, right, who's going to be there in the summer? You know, Zach Crawley would be a strong candidate. Ben Duckett, absolutely. I have no doubt that Ben's going to be playing. But what I'd like to hear and see from the England management is that if you go back

to the Australian summer right at the start, it was almost like, right, who's going to score runs? Manus Labers Shane had to go back at a load of runs to make sure that he was in the team. He did that. Jake Weatherall played nice, so they picked Jake Weatherall on his state form. You know, I just love the England management to send a message to all these. player said, by the way, that New Zealand test in June, we're not sure yet. We're not sure

because I do think it's been a little bit of a close shot that no one's really felt they could get into this group. Crawley's Duckett were always going to open on this tour. Well, Zach Crawley's finished a tour with an average of 28. So you would still persist with him? No, no, no. I'm saying, I may do, but I want him to go back

to county cricket and I want him to get a load of runs. You know, if you can't get a load of runs at county level, you know, how are you going to do it at this level? He's averaging 30 and test cricket over 60 tests for a reason. But I've seen enough on this trip, and I've seen it in the past. I do think he can play. He frustrates a life at him because he gets out too often when I think,

ooh, we've got a player here, and he plays some lovely shots. But I don't think any of these players are in the lights of Bethleh, Brooke, obviously. I do like Duket. I think he's a wonderful player that's struggled here because he hasn't left the ball well enough. But I hope the England's set up realize that they should send a message to those within the county game for April, May, that there's opportunities.

In the past, in the last two or three, I don't think those opportunities. opportunities have been there. I think it's been quite a close shop. That shop, the door to the shop, needs to be open once again. For players to know that if they go and get three or four hundred in April and May, give that carrot to the county game, those players within it. By the way, we're not sure what our team, it could be Crawley and Duckett, but someone like Zach's going to have to go and get a few runs as well. Let me talk to you about Duckett a minute, because it became him not leaving the ball became kind of a bit of a thing, wasn't it? You know, that's kind of, that's the way I play. And this is what I don't know, I don't need to leave the ball. When everyone in fact is saying, yeah, but when it comes to Australia, Ben, you can't keep doing that. You're going to get out. And it's happened throughout this series. Why has nobody said to him, actually, Ben, that ego stuff is nonsense. You need to work at your game.

You're going to have to tighten up your game. Because I guess we've had a culture that's been created that, you know, James Smith in the first inning. Simon Kattich said on the radio, you know, you probably went in the dress room and people were patting him on the back because you were, you know, you were trying to get the game moving forward. That's been the culture of this era in the last three and a half years. I also think it's a load of nonsense. It's all about winning. At this level, it's all about the end result. And we've said for months and months and months,

this is judgment time. And in Australia, we'll judge this method, whether it didn't work against India, the Drew. And there's a very likely chance, if you look at it tomorrow, that Australia win, they'll win 4-1. Guess what they did against India away? They lost 4-1. Guess what they did against India at home?

Drew 2-all. Guess what they did against Australia at home? drew to all. This England team under this regime playing the way that they've been playing has given us some incredibly entertaining moments but they don't get the trophies in the hand and for me we'll test championship finals winning Ashes series winning against India that's what you get judged on. We're going to hear from Jacob Bethel Sue but Glenn has joined us as well. Glenn just from a bowler's perspective how did you assess Jacob Bethel today? Yeah no I thought he looked good coming in there early is always interesting but

He looked like got a solid technique. You know, he didn't try to go out there and blaze. You know, the ball to the boundary. I was watching it. And the ball was making the boundary. It was sort of placing the shots, timing and more so. But he's not one of those brutes. He doesn't go out like Harry Brooke and just, you know, just smoke it.

So, yeah, I thought he played well. He played a very good tempo. He just kept the strike ticking over. He had a couple of playing misses, but it didn't seem to worry him. He just, you know, refocused next ball. and off he went. So I thought, you know, good solid technique, good temperament. And, yeah, now he deserved that hundred.

There's been a lot of chat here about the way this Australian team is selected and say has been selected for this game. Like no front-line spinner. It looks as though they're going to go four-one up in the series. And lo and behold, Boe Webster today comes out and picks up three wickets with his off-breaks. Well, there you go. And some of those really turned, didn't they? So, yeah, yeah, listening to, you know, Steve Smith, he said,

our hand's been forced a bit with the type of pitchers we're getting here, you can't pick a spinner. I don't agree with that 100%. You know, if Nathan Lyon was in the team, would they have told him again? Sorry, mate, we're leaving you out. And especially when you look

what's happened out there. Some of those balls at Boe Webster bowled really turned. Could you imagine someone like Nathan Lyon who's more consistent, knows the art so much better? He'd be a real handful out there. Do you expect Australia to go on and win from here? Yeah, comfortably?

You'd like to think so. You know, the game's not over. There's been teams bounce back and bowl out teams for less than what England already have. You know, go out tomorrow morning. There are only five overs to the new ball. You know, see what they can do. It'd be interesting to see the way Bethel plays it tomorrow. Potts has got a first class 100, hasn't he, to his name.

You know, tongue be interesting. But, yeah, see how many they can get tomorrow morning. But then when they do have to bowl, They have to knock head over it early. If he gets off to a flyer, the game's over. Right, okay, I promised you Jacob Bethel. Let's hear from him now. He's been speaking to Henry Moran.

Well, Jacob, congratulations on a quite wonderful innings. A Star is Born, is how Michael Vaughn described it. How was it out there? Yeah, it was very good. I think it's just kind of one of those wickets. That new ball, I said yesterday, the new ball was the trickiest part. and then once we kind of got past that, it was nice to bat on,

and you just had to kind of concentrate. What was the emotion waiting on 99, and then when you got that run or that boundary that took you to three figures? Obviously, it was goosebumps when I got over the line, but on 99, obviously, there's a few nerves, but I kind of made the mistake of getting out in the 90s over in New Zealand, and I actually think at that point,

I stopped watching the ball over in New Zealand, and I was just like, get me over. So, yeah, all I was focusing on was watching the ball and just playing every ball like I had done throughout the innings. Temperament is something that's very hard to learn. How do you develop that calmness at the crease that seems to serve you so well in test cricket? I think a big contributor is the fact that I was very small growing up. I only really got able to hit boundaries and sixes when I was about 15, 16. So I had that kind of ability to bat long periods of time when I was young.

younger and I think that's kind of just instilled in me throughout now. Hitting the boundaries is something that you earn the right to do on a surface like this particularly early on. How difficult is it going to be to keep going get started again tomorrow? I think new balls around the corner so that's going to pose different challenges but I imagine they're going to have the field out and try and stop me from hitting boundaries so we'll just have to try and hit it in the gaps and I guess play smart and as you say but yeah I have to figure that out on the fly and go with the flow as and see what they present playing smart is something that occasionally cricketers have been accused of not

necessarily always doing particularly in test cricket more generally recently where did you learn to do that I think I think smart is a weird word I think that if someone sees an option and they want to take it that is smart but I think yeah I I don't know where I've learned it, I just kind of play it as I see it and some risks seem a bit too high to take and others don't. So, yeah, I think it depends on the tolerance of the person. What about the match situation? It's not going to be easy for England to win this game, but you've given yourself an opportunity. Yeah, definitely.

I think before we went out to bat, we were talking about 200 lead, anything above 200 would have been very defendable on this wicket, especially if we get a few quick ones. tomorrow, me, Potsy and Tungi will try and get us as near to that. I'd buy your hand off for 200 now. But yeah, I think, yeah, we'll get 180 and then have a red-out crack at them tomorrow. What did the captain say when you got back in the dressing room? He just said, well, played. You know, I haven't had a time to properly chat to anyone. I'm coming and do this stuff with you.

But, yeah, I'm looking forward to chatting to the boys. You may not have seen it, but some wonderful shots of family. here as well. That makes it extra special. Yeah, I saw it saw it over on the TV over there and that's, yeah, that's pretty special. I'll definitely catch up with them tonight and have a chat about it. How did you keep yourself together when you see that? Um, I don't know. I don't say I'm overly emotional, but it definitely tickled a spot deep down. Um, so yeah, we'll see, I don't know, we'll see

tonight, actually. Well played, Jacob. Thanks for your time. Cheers. Well, a very special day for Jacob Bethel and his family watching on it. It's that beige and lilt, actually, too, his voice there just reminds me of something that Brian Lara said about him. Brian Lara said that Jacob Bethel was a better player at 11 than he was at 11. Of course, the test comes over time, isn't it? It'll be a better player at 20 and a better player at 25 and a better player at 30. But that was some statement by him today.

It was. And every, obviously, video recorder, I don't have that anymore. but all the data analysis from other countries will be monitoring that and they'll be working out ways and weaknesses and that's the difficult thing about being a new batsman these days they're all working against you and so he's got to be ready for that but looking at his technique today as we've said before I hope it doesn't change anything for now there's there's there's things that people will try short stuff or around the wicket over the wicket they'll they'll they'll try and narrow down areas in which they think that he has a weakness but it's pretty difficult to see anything out there today. I have to laugh because last night in a press conference, he said something like, you know,

we've got to give Will Jax something to bolter in the second innings. And I just burst out laughing. You can't be that confident. I mean, Will Jax isn't going to be in the game. You know what? He's gone out there and got a ton. He's got one or 19 runs to play with at the minute. If you can get another 50 or 60,

Will Jax might have something to play with tomorrow. You never know. So, yeah, we'll wait and see. But I like the way he went about it then. press conference. A lot of things that annoy me in press conference these days when I listen to England, even to Australian players, where they don't want to talk themselves or say,

yeah, I felt good out there, I did this. Oh no, it's not about me. It's about the team and all that rubbish. He went out there and he said, you know, he said how he was. Just stated some facts. This is the way he plays. This is what he's thinking. I do this, I do that. I thought that was really good.

And from a young fella, it shows good confidence and, you know, he's done well. Well there's always two sides of a story Let's get some reaction from the Australia Camdenau. Bo Webster was their man today. He made 71 not out and then he picked up three for 51 with his

off breaks. He was their surprise spin bowling success story. He's been speaking with Ishigua. Bo Webster what a stunning performance from you in this test match of 53 wickets. Did you imagine you could have the impact you would with the ball, with the spin as well? No, I certainly didn't think it was going to be with the

spin this game but I don't know that's the way it goes there was a bit of wear and tear there from Starkey's footmarks and we managed to make the most of in that session. What was key for you? I think just trying to bowl my best ball. I don't bowl them a hell of a lot to be honest. I think they're better the less I bowl them in the net. So when I do get them out in a game I'm not thinking too much and just trying to hit a good area and we got lucky enough to get a couple to bite today and good catch by a smudge off a bit of a half track of there but I'll take it. And were you expecting wheeljacks to come out as aggressively as he did? No, not that aggressive. No. I think I

I got a bit lucky there with the inside edge. Like I said, but got a bit of bite out of that rough. And, yeah, a hell of a catch from Greenie. I'm a couple after green lining one in the first innings. And he's taken a stutter there, so I'll buy him a bit after the game for sure. And you seem to be a truck specialist here as well. Another 50 for you batting with Steve Smith. How much did you enjoy out there?

Yeah, I love batting here. I think it's a really nice place to bat. Obviously, the big scores have reflected that. And no, I just sort of feel like I'm in good form. I feel like I've carried on my form from the test in the West Indies and right through. to the start of the shield season in here and lucky enough to get a go in the last test

and just tried to make the most of it I suppose and it was yeah like I said batting a nine's a bit foreign but yeah I'll take it. You've had to wait a while so congratulations to you just lastly where are you at in this game? Yeah very well placed obviously 120 lead we'd like to mop up these last two as quickly as we can hopefully the new ball around the corner as well

I'm not sure if I'll get a run in the morning but I'd like to try and snag a fifer there but no hopefully not too many ahead and let the top order boys get the job done. Well done once again and all the best tomorrow. Thanks, age, cheers. That is Bo Webster. That new ball is five overs away.

So a memorable, emotional day for Jacob Bethel today and potentially for Usman Kowager tomorrow. His last day in international cricket and he's been speaking to Corbyn Middlemass and the ABC commentary team. Usman firstly, congratulations on a wonderful 15-year career. Thank you. Yeah, look, I'm just very grateful.

Honestly, I've said it a lot, But I am. Not everyone gets the opportunity to retire on their own terms. At the home ground, my parents live still in Parramatta, so it's turned out really nice. I'm just very happy. So you get to go to bed tonight, wake up tomorrow. You get to do it one last time? What sort of emotion does that leave? I mean, firstly, we just want to win.

It would be a lot nicer to go out on a win and 4-1, and I think that emotion would be much higher if we can finish off and do it well. But either way, I think, you know, one more day left. I can relax after tomorrow. So one last push and then I'm good. state of play so eight for three hundred and two England the leads 119 you're out there you see the pitch and how it's panned out what do you make of where the match you're situated look it's asked for the taking tomorrow if we play well

enough bowl well enough get him out and we're chase a runs down so we did a tremendous job at the end of day today we sort of let him go in that second session and then you know slug coming on and bowling those beautiful offies and getting that wicket there's a like two second referral call we're getting Brooke and then we cracked it open there so it was really nice end of the day because it It was looking a little bit dicey for a little bit. There you go. I like to go.

You're not an emotional guy, I know that, but I saw some emotion in your press conference. What are the emotions going to be like tomorrow morning? It's definitely emotions. Honestly, when I was about coming out to bat, there was emotions. I kind of whaled up, and I'm like, all right, as I was walking down, I'll weld up and compose yourself, you're bad to bat.

So it was actually really hard. It's one of the hardest batting 10 minutes I've ever done in my life going out there first innings. I'm normally really clear when I went out, well, I had to face Bethel first of all. That's what I wasn't expected to face Bethel. All the imagery stuff I did wasn't facing Bethel when I first came out there. It was tonguey or someone else. So that took me that by a little bit surprised, but it was more so that there's so many emotions going through it.

It was hard to calm myself down in the first 10 minutes. But once I did it was kind of business as usual. Are we going to see Ursula in Kowaz, you're about at the top of the order one last time? I don't think so, but after Heddy's been absolutely crewing him. Jake started off well too, so look, I just like to get these runs, but, you know, it's not going to be easy the way. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is, and you know what small run chases like. You're either doing really easy or you have to work for him a little bit, so I'm not sure what tomorrow will hold. I mean, he's already made one run chase easy, so we'll have to wait and see.

You guys get into mode as cricketers, I understand that, so you're walking off the ground, you're out for 17, the state of the test match at that stage. I mean, it was still in the balance as to, well, you're going to get the chance to bat again. Everyone at the SCGs on their feet. What was going through your mind on the way off in particular? I noticed today the SCG groundsman's been at it. There's a thanks, Aussie sign with your number on the outfield. What were you thinking walking off? At that stage, I was very confident that I'd get another hit.

I still am. I still always read to bat. So I never, we played cricket too long to count our chickens. I'm batting five literally just takes bang, bang, bang, and I'm in. I could be in there in the third over. You just never know. So for me, yeah, walking off, I wanted to embrace the crowd, but I don't want to start, like, you know, give my farewell.

and then having to come back out and do it again. We're looking out in the idiot. We're raising the matter, everyone, thank you, thank you, thank you. And then come out again. I was like, I'm not sure I can right now, but it's not about that. Honestly, if we got him out today and I didn't get to do that,

I would have been perfectly fine. I've had a great week, and it's been a lot of fun, so I'm sweet. I need my microphone. Apart from doing your own spray painting on the ground, Oziy, tell me, I'm looking at your hat. What does the hat on your head mean to you?

I mean, the baggy green means, sorry, the Bay of Green is so much now. Back then, they used to give them out right, every tour. Maybe your day? You're not that old, are you? Dizzy might be. Back in the day, they used to give them out. They don't give them out anymore.

So it's one of those things that you cherish. But I've had this conversation to the lads. I love my Bay of Green, but I'm not attached to my Bay of Green. I'm more attached to playing cricket for Australia. I can lose my Bay of Green. It's fine. It's materialistic. I mean, I think Sean Marshall got eaten by moths.

And so these things can happen, but playing for Australia. Australia is that's what I'll always hold close to my heart and I mean these guys have done it the dream feels so far away at times especially when you're younger especially when I came to New South Wales squad I saw how good the players were how good the batsmen were particular I was like I'm not sure if I'm up to this level and you finally cracked that level and then you look at the next level you look at Michael Clark I remember just just even every time he came to the SCG or playing for New South Wales he score 100 I'm like I can't score 100 every time I play like first last cricket how good is this guy and it always

seems so far away and then when you finally get there you're like how good this and you're like wait a minute i want to keep doing this there's so many stages to it and then when you reflect on it at the end of your career you just think how lucky we are just to play one game let alone being able to do it for about 15 years so yeah you spoke for 43 minutes in your farewell press conference it made the most of it do not rightfully so it's your chance to have your say on the way out you touched on a number of different topics when you walk out of that and then you get ready to play a game of cricket in 48 hours did it was a distraction did you have much feedback how did you go sort of moving on to what you had to do next which was ultimately

obviously playing this game it was tough i'm not a lot i've kind of ideal would i would have liked to announce it a little bit earlier i mean i told annon McDonald in melbourne like eight to five days before i announced it i told him i kind of knew i knew in adelaide so i didn't tell anyone but my wife knew um and i told him straight away pretty much after the game finished maybe a day or two afterwards and i wish i would have loved to do it then but everyone was clocking off going New Year's Eve and, you know, doing what they do. So it was like too hard to do it then. And we just lost a game, so I'm like, maybe it's not the right time.

So I waited. It was a little bit of a distraction. But once you get in the cricket, once you get in the game, I don't think it would have mattered no matter when I announced it. Retirement's always a little bit of a distraction because it is what it is. It's the last game. But I've really enjoyed this game. I hopefully you can finish off with a win.

Are you content when you walk out of international cricket tomorrow? I'm so content. Yeah, yeah, very much. So I think I look forward to not having to worry about. snicking off anymore. Yeah, it'll be good fun. That is Osman Kowager, who will play his last day of international cricket tomorrow. We'll be hoping to see him walk out to bat, I dare say, and also probably walk off after getting him out. But we'll see how that happens tomorrow, what transpires tomorrow.

Right, let's put the full stop statistically on the day. Here is Andy Zaltzman, I presume he's starting with Jacob Bethel. Yes, let's start with Bethel's superb innings. It's the fifth England player to make his made in first class century in a test match, Gus Atkinson did it recently, Stuart Broad, back in 2012, and Jack Russell in 1989, and I call Henry Wood back in the 19th century against South Africa. This is a stat that really struck me. He was the highest score ever by an England player aged under 25 in Australia, breaking a record that had stood since AG Steele scored 135 on this ground in February 1883.

It's the ninth youngest player to make a century for England in all test cricket. Eight more runs, he'll be the second youngest England player to make 150 after Len Hutton. So a truly extraordinary performance. Less good from some of the rest of England's batting line-up. Some odd series Joe Root, two fine centuries, but seven scores under 20. Ben Stokes, six single-figure scores, eight scores under 20 in the series. And Harry Brooke, one of the oddest series in England players ever had seven scores of 30 or more. Only the second England player to have seven scores of 30 or more in a series in Australia since 1971.

But no centuries and three dismissals in the 40s, two in the 30s, and one for 52, just the 84 in the first inning is anything more major than that. in 10 Ashes test now, nine first innings, he's past 30, nine out of 10 first innings, 1330 plus scores against Australia, still no centuries, 10 hundreds against other opponents in 25 tests. Ben Duckett, similarly, lots of starts, six scores in the 20s of 20 or more, no 50s, first England player who's had that combination in an Ashes series since Len Braun in 1907,08, and one of a very few in the fifth Ashes opener who's played five tests in a series

without reaching 50, sorry, fifth for England, sixth in all ashes. So a lot of disappointments for England across the series but yeah, a truly fantastic and auspicious innings from Jacob Bethel. Okay, thanks very much, Andy. So much content on BBC Science for you to listen to, including Andy's TMS Ashes quiz

and the Ashes Top 10, subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Coming next, Jonathan Agnew speaks to a very famous couple who have been watching here at the SCG. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Amongst the crowd here, really delighted the sporting couple who are also part of the royal family. Mike Tyndall, Zara Phillips are here. Mike, of course, the former England Rugby Union International,

part of the squad who won the 2003 World Cup here in Sydney, and Zara the Olympian, who is BBC Sports, personality of the year in 2006 after winning the individual eventing world title and a silver medalist at the 2012 London Olympics presented to her by her mum of course and the Princess Royal. It's great to see you here. I'm surprised to see you here. But it's great to have you here. No, it's good to be here. We are primarily here because we're up here. We come every year to Australia for the magic millions and we head up to the Gold Coast next year and we were doing something with seven today at lunch. Next year or on Friday. Friday. On Friday. You're coming here. Well, it's a full year. Sorry, Friday.

The next week, I was supposed to say. So that's why we're here. But we have, we've been to the test match a couple times. We have so many friends down in Sydney. We obviously met down in Sydney. We've done a couple of weddings down here where we've brought the kids out. So we've spent a few Christmases down here. It's a fabulous.

It's a special place. What do you think? I love. Have you been here before? No. No. I haven't. I don't think I've done many cricket guys.

But I went to the MCG. but it was rugby it was for lions oh okay yeah right so that was pretty amazing but this is great and yeah Sydney's got a special place in the heart and I think I've done nords a couple of times but that's it I I played my first test granted it was schoolboy test against Australia we don't mind against Australia here on this ground yeah on this ground but there was no none of these this is none of these new stadiums there was just the old clubhouse was the hill there Yeah, the hill was there. Gosh, you're going to go it back a bit.

1990. 1990, this was. Right. How did you go? We beat them 4723. Oh. So, yeah. But we had a very good team back then.

Yeah, yeah. Quite a lot who went on to play for England. Right, okay. What about cricket? Cricket, I wasn't that greater. But there you go. Did you play? I played a bit at school, but, you know,

turning professional at rugby at 18. Yeah. Of course. It just takes over. How does it come here, and get all the sort of I mean it's quite friendly stick but it's still stick all the same

for the Australians when we when we lose I mean it's tough isn't it I know I think you know it's you know I look over the other side of the of the pitch and you know the Barmy army there and they're just you know

I wouldn't go down there by the way I really honestly don't suggest that you go down there they're very pleased to see you they are the best travelling fans aren't they yeah they are you know and like you can always count on them to be there through thick and thin I think and that's what's

kind of been needed this trip hasn't it? Well it has. Have you been watching I mean you must be interested in the whole question of coaching and preparation the sort of stuff that's been talked a lot about on this tour? But the nature of sport is that if you lose then you'll

talk about everything that you wouldn't talk about if you win whether it would be Basbo or whatever the environment obviously they went away after they lost the second test I think they had a week You might have enjoyed that. But in Newset, but it, obviously, I'm so on board with that.

You are. But the thing is, once you get to that level and you're playing at that level, they should know what works for them. You know, not everyone will always agree with it, but the most normal thing is if you lose a game, let's train harder. That's what you actually thought, because that'll fix it. a problem but actually that might fatigue you more and you actually might make you more bored

and it doesn't often work we have that in rugby that if you lose four, three games on the bounds you go right we're doing contact every day next week well then you just turn up to the game next time tired and beat up so you've got to find the balance about it and people won't

always understand it and you've got to find what works for that group is it a case if if you lose kind of there's a pressure on to analyze it and to learn from it and to do something about it do you think yeah but you've also got to understand you've got you've got to believe in your process of how you're doing things right and can that change it can it be flexible though yeah but you I think you do have

to sway with that if if something keeps cropping up let's say drop catches or something then that's something it needs addressing or you might go right we need to sharpen upon that so we've got a shift like lads I know we're here and we're gonna we're here to have fun and everything else but this is actually crept into our game and it's noticeable or whatever it might be. So you've got to move both ways, but you've got to understand the group and what they need to be motivated to go,

but it can't all be fun, and it can't all be work. You've got to find that balance, and that's got to change. Interesting. I've brushed fleetingly into your world, Zara, with the questionism. I know.

I tell you what, if everyone's commentated on something that they knew nothing about, I point you towards the Rio Olympics and dressage. Dressage on the radio. That's tough. I mean, as tough as it comes, that's harsh. You see, 2012, while you're enjoying yourself and winning,

I was doing archery on the radio. And I thought I'd been promoted when they gave me a dressage, and then I looked, I'd never seen it before. Oh, come on. Oh, it's walking. I mean, you know, walking and stuff. So I have brushed into it. But it seems like a much more individual world.

Am I right? Yeah, definitely. Even when you're an equestrian team, you're still kind of looking after yourself. Yeah, you're looking after yourself. And essentially your performance, you doing your best is going to make the team, you know, do even better. And I think when we get into a team situation, then there's a few more sort of team rules that go on or, you know, you need to, one rider needs to do their skills this and they need to do a bit more of that. it kind of, it's a little bit more directed, should I say.

I'm not getting my words out. But actually, yeah, but actually it is all about your individual performance and collaborating that together as a team. So, but it's great, I love riding for TeamGB. I loved being on a team and being in that team atmosphere because it's so different to your day and day out professional career and competitions and it's just, you know, where you want to be, where you want to aspire to on our top level.

It is funny to sort of watch because obviously everything that they do is about herself, the horse, and then when you come to World Champs, Olympics and you're on the team, you then have to bring four or five riders or five riders and two individuals or whatever together, and you actually have to work as a team, and some people can do it. You know, it's like the Ryder Cup. Some people can do it because they're built in that way. They want to play together.

Whereas, you know, the thing that is always said about the Americans is they can't work as a team. But they become singles matches, they're fine because they know exactly what they have to do. That's the sort of same with the equestrian side and watching the four of them on the team come together. And someone might have to go first and actually be a bit of a, they call it a trailblazer where you have to, there's a chance you might make a mistake. Yeah. That's tough. And you've got set in it, yeah.

But as a sport, though, as a sport generally, we're all very in it together, weirdly, because it's so many highs and lows when you're working with animals. We all, you know, relay information between each other, you know, or what you're doing here or what you're doing, you know, this combination. So we all talk all the time. So actually, we can do the whole team thing, but your performance is very much individual. but we do all kind of dig in together

at competitions and at the high level I walk that course at Rio and thought how are people seriously doing this I mean it seems absolutely I mean there's someone hurling a ball at you out there at 90 miles an hour you can kind of control that but when you're on a horse and asked

to leap those enormous fences and the drops, frangible pins I know about them now I've brought a bit of knowledge with me but what a I mean that is a brave sport, isn't it? Yeah, it is. But I think that, you know, we work with our horses day and day out for that reason to

create a partnership where you can lean on each other in those situations and you know each other inside out and you know you can go out and go okay, this is the best, you know, plan for me and that's how we're going to execute the whole thing and

it's very much a partnership and I think, you know, that's why we all get into it in the first place, apart from, you know, patting our nice horses but you know they they when you can work in a partnership with a with an animal like that it's amazing they're somehow the communication the sort of really gripped me about the yeah the whole thing how you communicate with a horse you know literally with dressage i thought that incredible it's john howard in there by the way he is yeah oh do you know when he handed

out those world cut metal i know the glee i mean i must have made an impression on me you went did you play in that i was like i did It's been a while since I've seen you. How are you? Actually, I've still got a bit sore on my neck from you strangling me. I've never seen. I get on well with him. He does love cricket.

He does, yeah. But the way he handed out those men. He was an happy, was it? He was furious. But what a day that was for sport as well. Yeah, look, it was incredible. I think, you know, and for it to happen the way that it happened and, you know, going to extra time. And then, you know, obviously, golden balls at Johnny.

I know. hitting that drop goal, it was always made to be. Isn't true that it was fed the wrong way or something? No, so he'd miss two off his left, dropies off his left, so then he decided to show off and hit one off his right to win it from 40, yeah. I mean, that's just, it's sort of annoying, isn't that? I mean, I always feel sorry for Matt Dawson

because he made that break, and Dawes is generally one-on-one, exceptionally good, and he didn't round the fullback. Just imagine if Dawson ran the fallback, and he scored, and then suddenly the hero looks like Gollum from Lord of the Rings. It's very different to Johnny Wilkinson, you know what I mean? How many times have you said that story?

I feel that's a well-oil story. You can't let it down like that. It was a good story. But come here and beat Australia. I know. We were lucky at that time. I always say that I had never lost to Australia going with that game. So it was a weird sort of time of 99,

obviously we got drop kicked out. by Yanni De Beir in South Africa in the quarterfinals for our worst result ever in a World Cup. And then there was, like anything after a World Cup, there was a separation. You know, Ben Clarks, you're Victor Bogus, you're Jerry Gus Gers, you Fielder Glambles. All these guys sort of retired

and we brought in this young group. And we went on that run from 2000 where I'd only lost four times. I think the final was my 35th test. I only lost four times. Right, a real confidence. which was quite strange for that time and we were playing Australia

we never lost them so where was from my point of view and like Ian Bolshaw Josh Lucy Jason Robinson Ben Cohen Steve Thompson Ben Kaye from their point of view

half the team that was the norm was winning so we didn't play well in that World Cup but to get it done in the end was and have it done in the way that it happened was amazing people will never forget it and that's what so lovely about sport, isn't it?

I mean, you get these sort of golden moments. Memories, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, what was a highlight of that one for you? I mean, the whole thing that seemed to be swept along, not on the archery, Ocky, if I'm sure, but just down the road, I could hear the cheers coming up from all of you. Because it kind of really built up, didn't it? That whole question with the questionism as well.

Yeah, it was great. Actually, we were all a little bit worried about the location. It was amazing. The Greenwich. You know, yeah, Greenwich, when we're building up to it. but actually for us and for equestrian disciplines, it was amazing because more people could come and see it, more people than ever watched eventing, dressage, and show jumping

that ever would have because it was so accessible. It was in such a great location. You know, there was people just packed everywhere. It was really like an incredible experience. The noise was unbelievable. It was just... For an equestial event. For an equestrian event.

Yeah. It was, you know... The atmosphere of 2012 was just amazing. Oh, it's phenomenal. You think about it now, like London's generally, I'm not doing London in a disturbance, but it's grumpy, you know, people don't really want. During that 2012, 11, everyone was, the volunteers were amazing.

Everything was incredible. The backdrop of where the dressage was. Yes. It was incredible. The whole experience, just everyone, you know, having that many people in one place, I always loved going into the dining hall in the Olympic Village

and you've got all those people from everywhere across the world globally you know it was just amazing to see all those people in one place there for one reason nothing else mattered apart from you know we think World Cups are big but actually when you do cover an Olympics

the sheer scale of it and all the different angles you're still riding by the way do you have a saddle up I've got a couple left and I'm trying to you know, ride out slowly. But, yeah, if you'd be there from... Is this where you're supposed to say, yes, I'm going for another Olympics to do this? I've retired.

I thought... What, from... Comptitating on? Actually, from... I was going to say, from this interview, I thought you had retired. No, no. You're listening to the TMS podcast

from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, great to hear from Zara and Mike Tyndall with Jonathan. You can watch. clips of the best of the action from the fourth day on the BBC Sport website and app with our full highlight show on BBC iPlayer. Look out for the TMS Ashes debrief with Alex Hartley and guests also available on IPlayer and we're back on air from 1045 tonight for the fifth and final day of the test and the last day of this Ashes series.