Test Match Special - The Ashes: Crunch time ahead of the Christmas Test

Episode Date: December 16, 2025

Ben Stokes and Pat Cummins chat to TMS as we look ahead to England’s must-win Test in Adelaide. Plus, we get the thoughts of Jonathan Agnew, Stephan Shemilt and Bharat Sundaresan.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge. Perfect for the ultimate defender. The high-performance defender, Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D dynamics air suspension. Learn more at Landrover.ca. This month in football, everything is up for grabs. The Premier League battles intensify.

The Champions League reaches its crucial turning point and the World Cup draw sets the stage for the biggest tournament on earth. Football Daily from the BBC brings you sharp analysis, instant reaction, expert insight

and the stories driving the game on and off the pitch. Your essential football podcast delivered every day. Listen to Football Daily on Spotify to Football Daily on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. on BBC Sounds.

Hello, this is Eleanor Aldroyd from Adelaide, where it's now or never for England to turn the Ashes series around. They simply have to win. During this podcast, we'll be hearing from both captains, Pat Cummins and Ben Stokes, and assessing how England can get back into the series. TMS at the Ashes.

So welcome to the Adelaide Oval on the eve of the third test match of this Ashes series. It's a must-win. game for England. And it is the most beautiful day. It is still relatively pleasant temperature in the high 20s. It's going to get up into the 30s over the next few days, though. This is not, as Ben Stokes would probably say, a place for weak men. And England and Australia have both named their teams. In the last 24 hours with me are the BBC's chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew, writer and broadcaster Barat Sundaraisen, and our chief cricket.

reporter Stefan Shemmelt, Agas. Here we are again at the Adelaide Oval. For me, the most beautiful cricket ground in this country and possibly the world, even though it's much changed over the years. And it feels like this is going to be the focus of some pretty serious hard-nosed cricket over the next few days. It's going to be a massive week because whatever happens here, there'll be ramifications of some sort, either as we all hope the ashes are still alive and England could, who knows, win the last two tests. And win the ashes, if they don't win here, I think there's going to be a lot of big questions raised. And that's inevitable. Not just about the way they've played in the first two tests, but what they've chosen to do at the downtime.

They've made those choices. It's all part of their blueprint. It's the way they do it. I'm a bit confused about some of the conversation about, well, there's these breaks between test matches. Well, they've always been breaks between test matches from the word dot. But the difference was that they used to go and play cricket. those breaks and this squad have chosen well not the squad necessarily the management of the squad have chosen not to do that and we will see whether that's right or wrong now i i do add the caveat

that they have now had two hard games of cricket in the two test matches not long only six days but they have at least warmed up they have at least had some practice they have at least played some cricket um i'd like to have seen them play some more and and we'll see i mean you know judgment day is approaching and I thought the way that you'll hear from Ben Stokes in a minute but I think the way that he talked about it I said is this the crunch of the blueprint it just feels as if it is you know if they if they go down 3-0 here and it's all over there's still two test matches to come and then the focus again will be on the preparation the year building up to this what decisions were taken we're hearing now of course of an opportunity of a match

against Australia A now was that true or not we don't we don't know but if that was knocked back in favour of that knockabout in Lilac Hill that's a really serious decision that someone

has made and it's that sort of scrutiny that the management of this team will face it by management I mean

Rob Key particularly I mean obviously Brendan McCullen the coach Ben Stokes yes to an extent he's the captain but it's those two

really and you have to go right to the top this is signed off by Richard Gould chief executive so they are all responsible for

for where we are today. And I think these are going to be conversations that will happen after this test match, undoubtedly, Stefan. I mean, you were in Nusa with the team. Do you feel like they're prepared to play a test match, a hard test match over the next few days? I think there are a lot of things that,

and we spoke about this the other day, didn't we earlier, about hindsight and how things are judged in hindsight and how we are going to have the benefit of hindsight in five or six days' time. And if England win this week, then Nusa is going to look like the greatest circuit breaker that management have ever come up with. If England lose, it could be, was it Barden-Barden, 2006?

In the Football World Cup. It could be English cricket's Barden-Barden moment. Whether or not they're prepared, they've certainly talked a good game over the past three days, and we have had the big dogs, if you will, all talking to the media. We've had the coach, we've had the vice captain, and we've had the captain, all up from England's point of view. Brendan McCollum, Harry Brooke, and Ben Stokes,

and they have made the noises that we would like them to make about how England have reflected on those first two test matches and how they would like to approach this third test. Question is, is it too late? And also the question is, actually, do they mean it? Are they not just saying it? Because they know people want to hear this stuff. So are they just not just saying what has to be said?

Basically, it's got to happen now, hasn't it? It's got to happen in this test match. no two ways about it. And I mean, kind of briefly on the gap between the test matches and what happened in that time, I mean, Barat, you obviously, you know, you know the Australian team very well. They've, and we had Cam Green, we had Alex Carey saying, of course, it's fine, you know, it's fine to take a break. We did that on the tour of England two years ago as well. But Australia, I mean, they are sitting pretty, aren't they? You know, we've seen Pat Cummins talking today, he knows that they are

2-0-up, they just need to draw this next test match to retain the ashes. They could not be in a happier place. No, I mean, I guess NUSA is a happier place, technically speaking. And all I'm saying is just on Nusa. If England win this test, can there be a better

tourism advert for Nusa than that? They just have to show pictures of Ben Stokes on the beach and then show them winning at the Adelaide Oll and say, there's where you go when you're in despair, and when life looks like, it's very difficult. for you. But from an Australian perspective, they're just getting stronger. And I think something Pat Cummins said in the press conference today was, I thought, very, very interesting and

important. Because in the last few homesomers, Australia have got to the third test and the fourth test, and they've looked at their fast bowling attack and gone, like, you know, there's a lot of overs put in them, and we need to look for replacements, whereas now they've played the replacements. The replacements like Doggett and Nyser have done a job. Nyser obviously took the firewicked hall last week in Brisbane. And now they're getting stronger. I mean, Pat Cummins is back. And Pat Cummins also did say that he has no restrictions.

I asked him if he will be the one with the short-pitched ploy or executing it if it comes down to that. And he said, yes, I can do whatever I want. My body is free. And then Jai Richardson's bowling like a dream in the nets. hasn't played a test match since he played right here four years ago. So it just feels like Australia getting stronger on and off the field. And I don't think they still think they played their perfect game.

They made 500 but that was more because of Stark and bowl and what they did. So yeah, with England as well, I just get a feeling that it's, if this was any other team, we would be talking purely about the cricketing aspects of it. I mean, they're not the first team to come here and have battles sneaking off trying to play on up or fast bowlers getting excited by the bounce and going too short. But because of everything that is set around this English team, it feels like our philosophy is up for an inquisition if this doesn't play out the way they want to do. But I also think a lot of the conversation is because everybody, Australians and English alike, expected this team to play better.

They actually expected them to really challenge Australia. So the noise you get from Australians is a kind of relief, really. Well, here we are. We're still right up there. We're still given in the old country a good flogging and from the English perspective it's just massive disappointment and all these supporters who've come out believing that they were going to see something really special

and if they don't win here they're not going to see that. But also disappointment from Ben Stokes and Brent and McCullum stuff and I kind of think that the messages we've had in the last couple of days from them is that they know how that they've underperformed and they know that something is not

sinking in with this team. The thing I find fascinating about the noises that Brendan McCullum and Ben Stokes have been making is that they have made this bed over the past three and a half years about culture, about giving players freedom, about encouraging them to play in the way that they want to play. And now England and their management have got to lie in it. And the reason that I raised two years ago in the UK when England were two-nill down and England went to Headingley and they had a huddle and Ben Stokes said something that I can't repeat on the radio. You can only play that card so many times.

And in that England squad that came back from 2-0 down and went within a very wet Sunday at Old Trafford of winning the ashes, were characters like Stuart Broad, Johnny Birstow, Jimmy Anderson, Chris Wokes, Moeen Alley, Mark Wood, battle-hardened guys who are ready to get in the fight. And I think Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullum, what they were talking about at the end of the Gabba Test match, as they looked around and went, who is getting in the fight with us here?

And you mentioned it, Ellie, about Ben Stokes being asked about Joe Root earlier on in the press conference, about whether or not, you know, he's lent on Joe Root about a former captain and used his experience. I think there's only so many grown-ups in this England team, and certainly there's a lot of this team that owe their careers to the Bas-ball movement. This is all they know,

cricket to be. I'd say only Stokes, Root and Archer, of the team still in Australia. They think that this is what test cricket is like. Play your shots. Go on holiday and Nusa. And I just wonder if that realisation from Stokes and McCullum now, when the heat is at its hottest and the stakes are highest, have they realised maybe this has just got away from us and we're not sure if we can pull it back. And interesting, they've gone for Bride and Cars, who absolutely fits the bill. I mean, he went round the park. Brisbane, but he's wholehearted. He'll run through

a brick wall. He's just exactly the character that Ben Stokes is talking about. And even a couple of the Australian top order yesterday on the sidelines were surprised that it was Kars who kept his place in the side or not Atkinson. That's character. That's been selected on character. Exactly. They were like, wait, hang on.

He was a challenge Atkinson, just with the new ball. We thought he was a challenge. Oh, well, all right. They've gone with cars and tongue. Maybe life will be easier for us against the new ball. And I wonder whether it made the decision easier about Will Jacks as well, the way that he showed that fight at the Gabba,

you know, picking him over Shoebushir. But the reason, again, and I'll keep going back to this point about hindsight, is when England regenerated their team 18 months ago at the start of 2024, and they moved some players on, and we all thought they were really good decisions, on-field decisions. The likes of Birstow, Anderson, Jack Leach, Olly Robinson, they were moved on for guys like Jamie Smith, showy Bashir, Gus Atkinson,

who made an instant impact in test cricket. And I looked at some of the way that these guys were going about themselves of sort of a quiet, steely determination and thought, do you know what? I think that's suited to test cricket in Australia. I can see why you've been earmarked for this assignment. Yesterday, when Ben Stokes gave his written briefing,

he then said, you know what? some of the lads who are here for the first time, they've actually been overawed. He cited Jamie Smith at the Gabber. Remember when he dropped the catch and for the rest of the day? The crowd was on his back. Smith survives here. Atkinson and Bashir aren't playing.

And I just think there's a little bit about characters in the England team, who they've had in the past, and whether or not Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullough are being a little bit exposed right now. Well, let's hear from Ben Stokes, who spoke to Agers a little bit earlier. Well, Ben, I know it's an important cricket match coming up,

but when something is horrendous as Sydney happens, it kind of puts everything in perspective, isn't it? It does, just, yeah, watching that, you know, come into the sort of public domain in the news and stuff like that. I just remember we were in our team room in the hotel and got like a projector and the news was on and then it was just there and it was just, yeah, it was maybe five or six of us in there at the time and it was just like that silence and almost like what was going on, what's happened. You're right, it does put a lot of things into perspective and just an incredibly sad thing to see, you know, it's, yeah, it's, God, puts a lot of, you know, obviously, as an England cricket team and all that kind of stuff, you know, the rivalry that England and Australia have always had, things like that happen and all goes to the side and, you know, obviously we'll be going out there this week and, you know, with the armbands on and, you know, England and Australia, you know, England and Australia, you know,

coming together to show their support for, you know, a terrible, terrible thing. So incredibly sad and all of our thoughts and condolences go out to everyone who's been affected by it. Yeah. The fact is, though, back to the reality of here, it is an important game, it's a huge game for you. I wonder if it's the biggest game that you've played in the most important game, particularly as captain. Yeah, definitely. And, you know, throughout my career and all that kind of stuff, I've been involved in quite a few big moments and, yeah, this is another one and I'm

really, really looking forward to it. I've been, yeah, I've enjoyed the buildup, I've enjoyed the pressure of the last few days of what this game means and as we get closer and closer, it's actually... become a lot easier if that makes sense you know that's how I deal with you know big things and big moments is just yeah look at it look at it front on and take it on and just deal with all those emotions that come with it because you know what what else you're supposed to do don't let the moment overcome me or feel like it's going to control me yeah I just go out there and put all that kind of

of stuff to the side and do what I need to do in every situation that I get put in and try my absolute best. That's you. What about other members of your team? Those who actually perhaps don't have quite that clarity of thought, if you like, and experience. How are you looking after them? Well, I think experience is the big word there, has got an understanding that quite a few of the guys in the dressing room won't have that to be able to fall back on. And what I feel like I've had to do is fall back on my own experiences and voice that to the group because I had to just, yeah, as I say, remind myself that, you know, I remember what it was like the first time that I ever felt what this was like and I've been able to go back

and use that to my own advantage. Whereas right now, you know, we've got a couple of guys who probably, you know, haven't been in the situation on this or felt what it's like. So, explaining it and using, you know, going into a little bit more detail around the group around, this is what I do, this is what I feel like, this is how I deal with those kind of things, and then when you get out there, it's, yeah, just playing the game for what it is, what's in front of you. And, yeah, the only battle that should be going on is you versus the other person who's there to either try and get you out or try and score runs against you. because that is what cricket is

it's just trying your hardest to not let the guy at the other end out do you but also knowing that it can happen even if you do go out over that mind but if we can get that right this week in terms of our mindset mentality towards the situation

what we need to do and then marry that up with the skill that that dressing room possesses we've given ourselves the best possible chance of being able to win this week and then hopefully go on and win the series you had the break in do sir and the photographs of you have relaxing. What was going on behind the scenes?

I mean, the last time I spoke to you, he asked some pretty strong things to say about the team and what you wanted to achieve before this test match. What did you do? Yeah, so the best thing was just to let that sift around. Did you do it deliberately? Did he drop that bit of a bomb? Yeah, there was obviously a bit of emotion attached to it

and sometimes when you are emotional, things come out, you know, not necessarily in the right way, but that's fine. But they knew the captain wasn't happy. Yeah, however they've taken it, I think it's good because it's simming around, it's settled, come together, had a chat, and chat's done now. So it's about going out there and perform into the best of our capabilities.

And, yeah, I've probably voiced, well, used my voice a lot more than I probably have over the last three and a half years. Because again, we're in a, you know, we are in a situation here where we know we need to win three games. And as the captain, I was sort of like, well, I need to do that. So I ain't going to look back on this series. I told him and go, I wish I'd said that, I wish I'd done this. Because I need to be able to go out there this week

and give the best account of myself as a captain as well as a player. So, yeah, there's a few things that obviously I'd, the group needed to hear but also there was a few things that I needed to feel like I needed to say to be able to go out there with a very very clear clear head about the sweet can words put the mistakes right can can can words make them play better you certainly hope so and proof will be proof will be in the pudding but what I have done is definitely left no stone unturned in terms of the mental side of the game you know about what we're going into you know

expectations are around what you know we want to see this week you know I've spoke a lot about fight and determination and grit over the last couple of days you know to the cameras and in the dressing room in a bit more detail so yeah I think we're going to see well I hope we want to see completely different thing this week purely because of the situation that we find ourselves in here tactics and the Adelaide Louis was quite unique, isn't it? I'm short boundaries to the side, long straight, couple things about that. The short pitch bowling attack comes, I suspect, with a bit more risk here. And the long boundaries

suggest that you could have played a specialist spinner to use that term. How do you feel about both those things? Yeah, look, you come here in the dimensions are completely different to the other two grounds that we've played at. But the short ball plot is a plan that you've seen a lot of teams go to, especially when the, I don't know, you're sort of looking for a wicket or you're looking to change the momentum or the pace of the game and it's something that I think at some point you'll see both teams turn to. But yeah, it is a little bit different to have to think about how you use that, where you use that, who you use it against, purely just because of the dimensions of the ground.

But yeah, as you said, as a bowling group and talking about our plans and recess and all that kind of stuff in this gap that we've had it's funny you talk about every bat you go like top of off the best ball and it's about executing that as much and as often as it hasn't changed much frankly no hasn't even changed all the way back when you played I guess

but yeah 978 here first ball and that's the thing and it's just been you know everyone is so clear around plans this week with both bat with both ball and so it's about going out there and executing that as much as we possibly can and I mentioned the long boundaries

and you haven't picked a specialist spinner as such according jacks a battery bowls off spin. Thoughts on that on show Bashir? This might have been the opportunity he'd have looked at and hoped to have played here. Yeah, when you look at the, obviously, the first two grounds that we're playing at, you sort of look at those two and you go, right, well, Bash is probably going to come into the team later on in the series anyway,

but we didn't plan on being two nil down. You know, we are where we are. We've had to make some big and tough decisions in the past around, you know, changing the 11th. to get the balance and to get the plays in that we thought was going to give us the best chance of winning. And we've had to do that here. We know that we need to take 20 wickets to win a game. But we feel runs are just as important as wickets this week.

So, yeah, look, we are where we are. And we will always pick an 11 that we think is going to give us the best chance of winning a game. And as I said, what I said around Bash, if it comes down to having to choose our best spinner in the squad, that has not changed. It's just a situation that we find ourselves in. Yeah. Just last one, Brendan McCallum talks a lot about the blueprint and the way that you play.

Is this crunch time for the blueprint? Do you think this game? This game is, well, yeah, it all comes to a head. It either works or it doesn't. Well, I mean, the blueprint, I don't know how many times I'm going to say this, it's applying, absorbing, chase the ball out, I'd leave everything out there. Those are the four pillars that this team is working around.

And look, we know that, There are, you know, out of those four, the one that we haven't been able to consistently do when the moment has a rise has absorbed that pressure. And, yeah, look, at times, this series in particular, we've been presented with times of that and we've just not been able to be good enough to do that. So, look, we've spoken about those type of moments and, you know, it's about the guys who are out there in those moments identifying them. and, you know, as I said, you know, using your mind, your mind along with the skill that they have and applying yourself in the way that you feel is best to do what is required. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. I'm Maisie Adam.

And I'm Susie Ruffel. And we host the women's football podcast, Big Kick Energy. Each week we bring you the latest from the WSL and beyond. Whether you're a lifelong fan like me or a newer fan like me and have recently got swept up in the lioness's excitement, We've got everything you need to know about the women's game. And chants. We've got chants. Oh, yes, we love a chant.

And finding ways to shoehorn in some truly obscure pop culture references. It's actually quite a silly podcast. Yeah, listen now on BBC Sounds. Yeah, you should. Okay, cool. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters, and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at Landrover.

This month in football, everything is up for grabs. The Premier League battles intensify, the Champions League reaches its crucial turning point, and the World Cup draw sets the stage for the biggest tournament on earth. Football Daily from the BBC brings you sharp analysis, instant reaction, expert insight, and the stories driving the game on and off the pitch. Your essential football podcast delivered every day. Listen to Football Daily on Spotify, to Football Daily on BBC. DC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

TMS at the Ashes. It feels a little bit to me, Aga, seeing him in the press conference, watching his body language talking to you, that he knows that he is a bit on his own, that he hasn't got the leaders, the generals around him that he would want to have, and he is desperate. to impose those messages on the players. And I wonder if you think he can do it. Yeah, I mean, in some ways, I don't think he's concerned about that

because he is a leader. I mean, I think Stokes likes to be the man in charge. I just think he relishes that, you know, grab the game by the scruff of the neck, look at the great moments he's had in cricket. He's done it himself. So I don't know about that so much. I mean, I don't see him talking to Joe Root.

I don't see him talking to Harry Brooke when they're out there in. the field. He does it himself. Should he talk to them more? Well, not necessarily. I mean, I think the one time maybe where it really did get away with him was that

Sank the things in Perth and there's a sort of mayhem and he admits he just lost control of the game. But I think Stokes is the sort of fellow who actually relishes the pressure of being by himself. Now, in that interview, you'll have heard me

say, but that's you, Ben. What about the others? You know, you've got other people in your team who actually aren't like you. They haven't got that sort of clarity of thought and that experience. He picked up on experience, didn't he? Those, you know, who've actually, the lack of experience of a number of his players for this sort of fight. And that's interesting. He knows it.

He knows what the situation is. The other thing that surprised me as well, we talked about the short pitch bowling and the attack and so on. And he said, well, you know, we could have bowed top of off stump. Nothing's changed. even since when you were playing. Did you hit it, Agers, by the way. Always. But that makes the Cass Atkinson decision

quite an interesting one. And that is purely character because the mound is going to run up and hit the top of off stump and actually bowl quite nicely is Atkinson. And the man is going to come and bang a ball in halfway down on these short boundaries is Cass.

So there's a little... That doesn't quite make sense for me. I mean, I remember Dougie Bollinger running in here, dug the rug, bowling bounces nonstop at Kevin Peterson who just stood there like a baseball hitter and he kept sticking and that stand wasn't there

but he would have demolished that stand if it was there he just kept smashing him because it is such a short boundary and I do hope I do hope that England think twice because it suggests when you go there as Stokes said in that interview

that you'd be really looking for a wicket it smacks a bit of desperation and I would be disappointed if I saw England go to that tactic too quickly on this particular ground I just think about when you say Ellie, does Ben Stokes feel like he's alone? And I'm with Agers that I don't think that bothers Ben Stokes. But that doesn't mean that others can't step up and show leadership.

And I look at someone like Ben Duckett, who usually buzzes around in the field. He's usually in Ben Stokes here. We haven't seen too much of that so far in this series. I look at the responsibility, if you want to call it responsibility or opportunity or reward or whatever, that guys were given by the opportunity to go and have a holiday in Nusa. Well, are you going to repay that faith now with a performance this week? And then just going through the England team, has Harry Brooke acted like a vice captain so far on this tour? I would argue that he hasn't. Just going down the list of England's all-time

leading test appearance makers. Olly Pope has played more tests than Ted Dexter, Steve Harmison and Chris Wokes. Zach Crawley has played as many tests as Jack Hobbs and Raymond Dillingworth. Do those guys act like they've got that sort of test experience? I would argue that they don't. Can some of these guys help out, Ben Stokes and Joe Root and Joffre Archer, I would say, throw that in there. It's also interesting, and I'm with you, you've named three Batswin there.

And it's usually the batsman who steps up to come the next captain of England, isn't it? None of those fit the bill for me. You're not going to say, oh, that's the future and the captain. None of them are not even the current vice captain. There's also leadership in the bowling, though, remember. because there is no Wokes, Broad and Anderson. Who's standing at Midon? If Stokes is at mid-off

and you've got someone at the end of their mark, it was usually Anderson Broad or Wokes at mid-on having a three-way cop. There's none of that at the moment. And the interesting thing as well, I don't know if people heard Matt Pryor speaking to Mark Chapman last night on Five Live and saying, actually, you need your wicketkeeper

to be the drummer of the band, to be a dynamic personality. You know, I mean, Alex Carey, you know, is one of the nicest men in cricket, I think, Barrett. But he is that leader, and the way he stood up to the stumps They need to be an absolute pain. They need to be an absolute pain in the neck,

the wicketkeepers. Excuse me, wicketkeepers are not a pain in the neck. They need to annoy their hell out of the bats and just be generating enthusiasm out there. A lot of it's a lot of it's nonsense, to be honest. You know, come on, lads. Well, anyone can shout, come on, lads. You shout it from here.

But it is that beating of the drum that you talk about with the wikikeeper. And you don't hear much from Smith. I think going back to your point, I guess, of Australian fans, I mean, they like England being beaten 5-0. But there is a lot of disappointment about, yes, the performance of the team, but also the attitude of this English team on the field. Because what we saw in 2023 felt like a different England team. And you're right, Stefan.

It was, there were players with a lot more experience. And honestly, watching Ben Stokes' captain at times, I'm reminded of when Virad Koli had just taken over the Indian team, where you saw it on the field. You suddenly felt like there were a lot of young cricketers trying to impress him. Like, they weren't focused on the best versions of themselves. It was more about the best version they thought that Virat had of them, and that put off a lot of frigates.

And then you really need to be an exceptional cricketer to stand up and find your own feet. And that's why I find net sessions around England very funny, where, you know, Zach Crawley is an interesting one. He comes, and, you know, he'd been nicked off a couple of times in Perth. You go to Brisbane, and the only messaging goes, Oh, you're hitting the ball hard last time? Just hit it harder, Zach. And they're like, yeah, cool.

And then he's just hitting the ball harder. And I actually agree with what Brendan McCollum said about too many net sessions because there seem to be no rhyme or reason to a lot of net sessions that England have, except with Joe Root and Ben Stokes, where you can see that they're working on something. Maybe it's their experience, maybe they know their game better. And that's what, and yes, we've had only six days of cricket. It feels like we've been talking about the series for six years. And they speak about basketball and freedom,

but we haven't seen that from this English team, which is what is confusing. You can only do so much in the net. You should be playing games of cricket. There is no better thing to do than actually playing games of cricket. But when you say, Barrett, about the Australian public wanting this England team

to be competitive, do they want this particular England team to be competitive? because there feels like something about the basballers, if you will, that really winds the Aussies up and they would like nothing more than to put this particular England team in their place. Am I right? You are right.

I mean, they were annoyed with them and the narrative around them in 2023, but they haven't seen that England team over here yet. And even the breakfast show that I host here and the text messages this morning, they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we want Australia to win 5-0, but can England be a little more competitive

so that we get some decent test cricket because it's, yeah, it's been the messaging has been confusing this time because let's go back to Lords, right? At the end of that test match, the Johnny Best incident had happened, yes. But when Ben Stokes came out and said, we will, there's moral victories

and we want to win 3-2, even from an Australian perspective, you felt like, yeah, there is some truth to it because Australia somehow over 2-0 up. But this time it just feels like they've except that first evening in Perth, they've just been on top. Quickly, Agar's thoughts

about Josh Tongue coming in for Gus Atkinson. Is that the right move? Do you think? Do you think the team is pretty much what you would have expected or what even should be playing here? It is down to seven. I didn't expect Boucher to play. I think he needs to go away

and play some games of cricket. I know it sounds of terribly like an old war record. Why is he here, Agass? Well, indeed. Because they made the decision that they've not going to have a jack Leech and there's nobody else. I mean, he needs to learn his game. So does Bethel. Bethel needs a season of playing county cricket. Just to discover his game and to learn

how to play in the bigger situation. And I really hope that they look back at those selections and the way they've been handled, the management of those two players in particular and realise it actually hasn't really done them any favours. Josh Tong has always been

different. His arm is way back extended behind his head. It's unusual. And coming from that angle, it only has to do just a little fraction. And actually it seems like a great big leg cutter. He's got some pace. We know he's had injury problems. But, yeah, I mean, I think they had to make a change or two.

I'm glad they didn't drop Olly Pope and put Bethel in there. I just don't think that would have been a better option. I'm not saying that Pope is the right option, but I don't think Bethel playing instead of him at this stage would have been on this stage. We saw what happened at the Oval. That's why I go back to that point about he needs to learn his game. So it's just shuffling the pack, isn't it? But it's trying something that's a little bit different.

But I get the cast, big heart, the energy, the effort and all that. But I still think that Gus Atkinson, for me, he would have been a better selection. I just think he bowls that full of length. He nibbles the ball around. You know, the whole basball philosophy or this English team, they spoke a lot about unpredictability. And just on the selections that England have made in the last two games, the fact that the Australian team management knew that Jacks'

was going to play three days before the team was announced. The fact that the new tongue was going to play three days out kind of tells me that this English team is more predictable than they think they are and that's why Australia I've kind of sat pretty and if anything... They've only got so many players in the squad though. No, that is true as well. Yeah, exactly. No, but the fact that they kind of don't expect this English team

to do anything out of the ordinary, whereas it's Australia who done that when Travis Head's entrance music hit at Perth, the series was changed. Then they pulled out the Nisa card out of nowhere and made him play in place of Nathan Lyon. So if it's anything, it's Australia who actually played the kind of cricket that England think they do. I understand. Yeah.

Well, as far as the Australian selection is concerned, we've got Lion and Cummings returning for Doggett and Nisa. Pat Cummins hasn't played a game of cricket since July, but he returns to lead the side after a back injury. He's been with the ABC's Aaron Bryans. Pat, you must have been tromping at the bit, watching Australia go two-neill up. and now you finally get a chance to return to the Ashes Arena. How are you feeling?

Yeah, absolutely pumped. It's great to watch the first couple of tests. Yeah, kind of wish I was out there, but the boys were fantastic and yeah, pretty excited now to get in amongst it. So two changes, Nathan Lyons comes back alongside you, Michael Nisa, Brendan Doggett out. There would have been a strong allure

to get was McCawazia back into the team as well, a luxury to have him fit. Why did you resist it in the end? You know, absolutely, someone of his class to sit on the bench, We're in a pretty good spot at the moment. Yeah, I think Trabhead's been the one big moving part for us. He's looked fantastic up the top, batting.

We've weather-ruled, so it didn't feel like we wanted to move on that, and we're pretty happy with how the middle order is functioning. So, yeah, unfortunately, no place for Aussie this week. So the Aussie's rolling with Nathan Lyon, the English side have decided against Shoe Bashir. Can you tell us about the importance of spin on the Adelaide over Wicked and why you've made that decision? We really value spin.

You know, we're lucky we've got someone of Nathan's calibre in our side. It always does seem to spin a little bit here, so it's not only days four and five. You know, I dare say, you know, Nathan will get himself into the game quite early here and does seem to spin on day one. So I always love having a spinner unless, you know, we think it's an extreme pink ball test. So, yeah, his value is important. It's going to be hot as well. Also, I dare say, you know, we need someone to bowl pretty, you know, a fair bit of overs.

It'll fall squarely on night. You mentioned last night during the test match dinner that this is one of the most consistent wickets you've ever played on. Ed Cowen said on the ABC Cricket podcast that it's a bowl first wicket. Do you feel the same sentiment heading into tomorrow? We'll have the toss and, yeah, we'll see. I don't know where Eddie's pulled that one from. I think they just do a great job here. The ground is, whether it's a T20, one day or test match, it always looks really consistent.

I think there's always something for batters and bowls. In terms of the heat as well, so we're going to push towards 40 across a couple of days. Does that tactically play a factor as to, you know, can you bat for a long period of time and keep England in the field in the hot sun? I mean, ideally, you know, in the pink ball last week you saw our batters, you know, bat for time trying to kind of place our bowling at the right position. And so we're getting that opportunity again, of course, that comes into it. Yeah, maybe how you manage the bowlers becomes important in the heat.

But, you know, we're all grown up here, so we're used to it. You've spoken a lot about the drawn series a few years ago in England and being 2-0 up and not being able to capitalize on that. All you need is a draw come this week and you're able to retain the earn. But how important is it to you to actually win and potentially sweep the series? Yeah, I mean, we're never playing for a draw. We're always trying to win. So, I mean, if we can get it done here, that would be.

fantastic. You know, the boys have been fantastic. The first two tests, you know, how good to knock it over, three, nil, that'd be pretty good, or we can relax for the last two. Well, that was Pat Cummins speaking to Aaron Browns from the ABC. Yeah, he had a big smile on his face, Pat Cummins. He was chatting to you guys as well, Barak, the S-E-N team, our commentary friends next door here at the Adelaide Oval. I mean, he couldn't wipe the smile of his face, could he really? Because he's come back at the perfect time for him. He is fully fit. He obviously He didn't really want to play at Brisbane because he would have been limited

to the number of overs that he could have bowled. But his comeback is remarkable, really. Any questions, though, that he hasn't played since July? No, I don't think so because he has been bowling the house down, albeit in the nets. But he's someone, because of all the injuries he had as a young kid, I think he knows his body better than most other fastballers do because he's had to deal with so much.

So when he says he's 100% with his back, and when he says he wasn't 100% last week about playing in Brisbane, you just trust him and sort of blindly and you are right I mean he's been chomping at the bits to be a part of the series because not winning that series

in 2020 he's really hurt and Pat doesn't give much away but there was that afternoon in Manchester when they went after him and he did look clueless and he's been waiting for this moment ever since he didn't have any of my nonsense did he when I asked him about that

in the press conference that's right he didn't go after you well he just flat back complete straight back when I asked him about being 2-0 up yes quite simple for England you bat for two days. 35 degrees, 39 degrees.

Let's see how Pat Cummins feels when he drags himself off the field. England has scored 600 and we'll see how he feels after that because there's no substitute for player. Well, he was asked, wasn't he, about the toss. If he were to win the toss again

because he's got a great record at winning the toss, what would you do? And Stephanie said, he said, I'm not going to be Nassau-Husain, Ben Stokes. He said, I'm going to be batting. Which surprised me actually because I actually thought

that I suppose bringing this conversation full circle, in terms of England's approach, that this is the place to basball. This is the most ground, most suited to basballing, play your shots, bat second, you know, chase a total, all those different things. Coming back to Pat Cummings, though, one thing is interesting. I think he really made me sit up and take notice. He said his recovery should have been three to four months.

And he's managed to cram it into six to seven weeks, which I thought was really interesting because you'll know, Agers. You can bowl in the nets at 100% as often as you want. but time on feet Well, that was my point if he's out there for two days if he can do the job they bat first

and they do the proper job Cummins will be exhausted when it comes off that field so that's all they have to do because I feel like actually a lot of this conversation has been about not negativity but realism

about England's chances and how England have played in the first two test matches and the job that they've got in front of them over the next few days and you said Barry you think Australia

are just getting stronger while actually Australia have just made a decision to pretty much end the career of Usman Colerger. They have bought back Pat Cummins after six or seven weeks when he should have had three or four months out. Nathan Lyon hasn't got a great record

bowling in the fourth innings of test matches and this is the ground that kick-started the 10-11 Ashes, there you go. There's my optimism for England. Optimism for England, Agassiz. Have you got any? Well, yes, I do. Because there have been moments

in the first two test matches in which they should have taken control of the game and they failed. They have at least had two test matches and games are cricket behind them now. We don't really know what's happened in New Suris 5 years. I said to Stokes

can words actually change the way that they're playing any more or less said well they have to and they do have to because for all the conversations we've been having for weeks about this tour and the preparation and everything else. This comes down to the crunch. They've had two test matches with a second string Australian

attack. I mean they've lost in two games in six days against well it's the weakest Australian attack I've seen for years and now we've got Cummins back you've got Lion back I hope this isn't a series that you look back

at whenever it may be at missed opportunities missed opportunities for proper preparation missed opportunities were beating basically a second string attack because they were opportunities they were opportunities and they've chosen a different path

or they've just played badly and they would just have to wait and see but they haven't got to improve massively on where they were they've got to improve consistency they've got to soak up pressure and they've got to be much more selective

about their shots if they do those things then yeah I mean it's a two horse race isn't that three test matches left in the series England backs against the walls just as it was in 20203 but that was back at home let's not forget that

but anyway we will see what the next five days bring us thank you so much to Jonathan Stefan and Barat remember test match special will have full ball by ball commentary of this crucial third test match on five sports extra and BBC Sounds from 1055 on Tuesday evening with play underway at 1130. We'll have a podcast with interviews and analysis each day, plus highlights

and a daily Ashes debrief with Alex Hartley on the BBC Eye Player. Thanks for listening. It's now or never for England. Oldest rivalry is reignited. Scotland and Australia do battle to compete for the Ashes. That is extraordinary.

Hear live ball by ball commentary on Five Sports Extra and get analysis and reaction of every day's play with the Test Match Special podcast. The steps out of the ground.

Test match special at the Ashes. Listen on BBC Sounds. This month in football, everything is up for grabs. The Premier League battles intensify. The Champions League reaches its crucial turning point and the World Cup draw sets the stage for the biggest tournament on earth. Football Daily from the BBC brings you sharp analysis,

instant reaction, expert insight, and the stories driving the game on and off the pitch. Your essential football podcast delivered every day. Listen to Football Daily on Spotify. to Football Daily on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.