Test Match Special - The Ashes: "Don't call us arrogant" say Stokes as England begin preparations in Brisbane

Episode Date: November 29, 2025

Henry Moeran is joined by Stephan Shemilt and Vitushan Ehantharajah and we hear from England captain Ben Stokes, fresh from accusations of "arrogance" from Australian media.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge. Perfect for the ultimate defender. The high-performance Defender Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D Dynamics Air Suspension. Learn more at landrover.ca. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. Hello, this is Henry Moran.

Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast from a steamy Brisbane this Saturday, where England are back in training, the lion's side down in Canberra, but pretty much the entire squad, back hard at it at Alan Borderfield, where we find ourselves as England prepare for the start of the second test match on Thursday. Over the course of the next half an hour or so, we'll be hearing from the England captain Ben Stokes, really fascinating chat about all of the noise around the last week, and we'll be getting the thoughts as well from our chief cricket reporter, Stefan Shemmelt, and also ESPN, quick infos for Tushan Ahantharaj. TMS at the Ashes.

Well, underneath cloudy skies here in Brisbane at Alan Borderfield, where England are training. We've got the Matthew Hayden stand, the Stuart Law stand, the Eddie Gilbert end, and alongside amongst the trees, we've got the nets where England are beginning to go. through their preparations ahead of the test match that begins on Thursday. Vish, Steph, thank you very much indeed for joining me. First things first, a little bit of a surprise to be hearing from the England captain Ben Stokes. No, I wasn't surprised, actually.

I was maybe a little, I don't know, I suppose it said a lot the fact that he wanted to talk because he's clearly aware of all the noise. And, you know, when the England captain speaks on any Ashes tour, it supersedes everything that's come before it. So you almost have a bit of a do-over, don't you? Because I think he addressed a few of the issues that emanated from last week, not even pertaining to performance, really,

even though we obviously did get into that. But, yeah, I think he's always been quite savvy with his media dealings off the field, and particularly around games as well, because he knows the value of his words. And, you know, there's a bit of Jose Marino about him in that he knows that what he says isn't just going to be heard by the fans

and by journalists and pundits. It's always going to be heard by the players. and I think to be seen not just sticking up for them but also could have encouraging them to move on and putting focus back on the test match ahead is you know it's a bit of a I wouldn't say it's a masterstroke because it's his job to speak

isn't it that's part of what he gets paid for but I thought it was good taking the ball by the horns and just showing a bit of the usual responsibility we come to expect from Stokes well let's hear that interview then Stefan Shemelt you've been speaking to England Captain Benst folks. Ben, how you doing? First thing to ask, how has everyone pulled up after Perth?

Yeah, all good. Obviously, out here in Brisbane now and, you know, we've done all the reflecting, all that kind of stuff, but yeah, now we're in Brisbane. Yeah, all the mind and everything of what we need to do is getting put into what we need to do in Brisbane. Talked about reflecting. It's a week on since that game. How have you reflected on that Afterwards, you said you were shell-shocked. So what have you done as a team to talk about that and move on? Yeah, exactly that. We've talked about it and we've moved on.

You know, we had some, you know, good conversations around the group. You know, it wasn't like a sit-down or get-together. It's not the way that, you know, we sort of do things. It's about choosing opportunities and picking off individuals, you know, at the right time to do it. and just encouraging those conversations. And I feel that's a really good way of, you know, not only trying to get messages across,

but also the best way that we feel is to be able to reflect on things. Because, you know, sometimes if you feel you get into an environment where you're all sat around on the huddle and all that kind of stuff, you end up people might just say things for the sake of saying it. So, yeah, it's important to, when you do have those moments of reflecting, that you get it in a way in which you know, know that people are going to say and get across what they feel, however maybe. I'm sure you'll be aware of the debate of whether or not you should have sent more players

to Canberra? Are you surprised by the size of that debate? I think I do understand it. We've got a pink ball test match coming up in Brisbane and there's an opportunity to play some big pink ball cricket. So I think when you look at it just like that, you know, I don't want to say it makes sense, but you totally understand it, but there's obviously a lot more that you, there's a lot more to it than just that. There's the, you know, where it is, you know, it's in Canberra, which is a different state. We're here in Brisbane. The conditions are obviously going to be completely different to what we've got coming up. So what you try and do is, is you try and take all the factors into consideration.

the pros, the cons, whatever it may be. And then you always discuss that and decide what is it that we think is going to be our best preparation. And, you know, we had a few days off than we had planned after that test match. So, you know, we then had to go away and go, right, how do we use these next few days wisely in order to get us prepared for what it is in Brisbane? And, yeah, reflection, time for that. planning all of our training leading up and building up into this Brisbane test and you know we schedule everything as if the test match is going to go five days

but didn't go five days so you know we had three days planned of training that obviously had the change because we only went two days so hence why now we've got a longer period of build up to get ready for this pink ball game a lot of the debate as well after the after Perth was around the manner of the defeat and some of the dismissals and then after the game you pointed out that the way Travis head batted was the that Australia won it. In terms of the method, did you look at Perth and think it was more execution? And what have you learnt about batting in Australia from that first test? Yeah, I think, you know, you're always, you know, you're emotional at the end of a game,

whether it be nice emotions or good emotions. So you don't have that time of reflection, whether it be good or bad. So that's why it's important for me and the rest of the group to be able to have time to reflect on it. So, look, Travis had played an amazing knot. There's no hiding away from that, but that's not the overriding contribution as to why we didn't end up getting the result. We did some amazing things throughout that test match. You know, the way that we bowled in the first sinnings, we were 100 for one, and we end up putting the score on the board that we believed was definitely defendable. But we all know and we can look back on that, and we have done that, and said there were moments in that game where, you know, we could

been a lot better to help us gain even more of advantage that we did have and we know that and we understand that and the important thing that you need to do from that as a team and as individuals is learning from that we've identified those moments we've spoken about as a group and that's what you can do you know execution could we've been better at executing what we wanted to do definitely but again you know we've got a mindset of playing the game which is you know looking to put the opposition under pressure but also trying to absorb that and sometimes when you

go out there and you make a decision it doesn't always pay out or work in the way that you want it to and that's what the key for the rest of the tour is making sure that we stay true to our beliefs of how we play our cricket but also we do know that we could have definitely been a lot better in certain areas throughout that test match some of the criticism that you've had in the past few days

is quite personal words like arrogant being thrown around That's quite a motive. How does that make you feel? Yeah, look, you can call us rubbish, call us whatever you want to be. And, you know, we didn't have the test match that we wanted to. Again, you know, we were great in passages of that game. But, yeah, I think arrogant might be a little bit too far. But, yeah, that's okay.

We'll take the rough of the smooth. But, yeah, I'll rather, you know, the words like rubbish, but arrogant. sometimes you're a bit like off. Not too sure about that one. Certainly when you started as captain, they felt like quite a strong connection with the fans because of the way you were playing and the results that you were achieving.

Are you aware that you've got to keep that connection strong through results and performances? Definitely. It's a results-based job that we're in. We love our fans. We know we've got an incredible fan base who come out here and support us and they want to see us win.

We want to win. We're absolutely desperate. They're absolutely desperate. So in terms of, you know, that wavelength, we're all on the same wavelength. And look, we know that there'll be a lot of disappointed fans in England after that first defeat, but it's a five game series. We've got four games to go. We've lost the first one. You know, we're absolutely desperate to, you know, come home with that goal. But before we even started the series, which is to win the Ashes. and we'll be doing absolutely everything within our powers and using our time as best to allow us to go and try out there to try and achieve that goal. A couple more thoughts from me.

It's quite unusual for you guys to have such a big block of training during a series, obviously different challenge with the pink ball coming up next week. What's the thinking behind the extended training what are you trying to get out of it over the next few days? Yeah, well, again, as I said, we finished a game in less than two days. So we had, you know, almost go back to the drawing board and go, right, what are we going to do over the next eight days to prepare us for this game?

You know, we've got training here at the A-B field and then, you know, four days of good training, two days at which are under light. So, you know, we think about all this kind of stuff about what we need to do. Plans did change because the game lasted two days. So, yeah, we've, you know, thought about what we had to do over the eight days before. we got here to Brisbane and we know that we are doing everything that we can to make sure that we are best prepared for this game. So, yeah. And just finally, in terms of getting back into this series, such a big series, is this one of the bigger weeks you've been involved in as England captain? Every week is big. But yeah, look, you know, you're trying to bounce

back from an opening defeat. You know, there's not that you need any more motivation than you normally do to walk out there and play for England, but obviously on the back of the discipline, point in week last week, you know, you'd hope that there is that extra bit of natural drive within everyone to get the result that we want this week. Thanks very much. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. Well, Stefan, we'll get on to what Stokes had to say shortly. Loads of fascinating stuff in there, but one little piece of news and speculation is the fitness of Mark Wood. Yeah, actually, I think any time you hear about the fitness of Mark Wood, it's not little, actually,

because as we know with Mark Wood, small things can grow into big things and he battles with his body quite frequently as all fast bowlers do because fast bowling is really, really hard. He's not been at training today resting the left knee that he had surgery on earlier on this year and that surgery that kept him out all the home summer that he's been working back from in order to play that first test in Perth. Now we're hearing that he's a doubt for the second. second test in Brisbane starting on Thursday and if we're being told that he's a doubt now

then that feels like it's pretty unlikely and then the overs that you know Josh Tongue in particular but also Matthew Potts are bowling in Canberra they become important because if England want to stick with a five-man seam attack probably Tongue would be the one to come in so yeah it is a concern from an England point of view because of what Mark Wood offers admitted he didn't bowl a great deal in Perth but just from a personal point of view that Mark Wood has given everything to England to get fit for this tour and for him to be to be struggling is it's just a bit sad actually and it weakens England. I'm questioning because we know the pace that he offers is unlike any other bowler in

world cricket, not in terms of the raw numbers but just the the energy of the way that he bowls. Well, what's really interesting about pink ball test matches is that the perception is that the pink ball behaves differently to the red ball and actually it doesn't it moves in the air and moves around off the seam around about the same as its red counterpart. The hard part

playing in pink ball matches and a lot of cricket as we'll tell you this is seeing the pink ball. Mitchell Stark is the best pink baller in the world bizarrely because somehow he bowls faster with a pink ball. He bowls a percentage of deliveries above 87 miles an hour more often

with a pink ball than he does with the red one So if England were to lose their fastest bowler in a pink ball test, Mark Wood took nine wickets in the pink ball test in Hobart in this country four years ago, so that adds a little bit of weight to the theory. Yeah, for England to lose their fastest bowler in a test match when the ball is hard to see, well, that is quite a blow. Well, we'll wait and see what news we get over the coming days on that. I suppose there is the question as well.

We look out of the outfield and see Sher Bashir going through various warm-ups. England could play the spinner. Yeah, they could And Nathan Lyon has played an important role for Australia in pink ball matches I mean, ironically, despite all the good work that Nathan Lyon has done in Pink Ball Test matches for Australia there is chat in this country that he could be left out

for this game because of the limited role that he played in Perth because Australia I've got the option of playing Beau Webstowes and all round rook and do a bit of everything I'd be surprised if Australia don't pick Nathan Lyon line just because of how good a bowler he is and how much success he's had against England. I think England's plan for these two test matches has been to play all seam attacks in Perth and in Brisbane.

I'd be surprised if they deviate from that because Mark Wood potentially isn't available. But yeah, Bashir was in the 12-man squad for the first test. He is England's first choice spinner. Maybe this would open the door to him. I don't think that's the way they will go. I think we'll see Bashir or Willjacks in Adelaide where the conditions are more likely to call for a spin bowler.

We will wait and see in any news that comes from the England camp regarding Markwood, of course, the BBC Sport website and app and BBC Radio, the place to follow it. Right then, that Ben Stokes interview, really fascinating. First thing that struck me was words like humility and recognising the debate around Canberra as well. I mean, there was a lot to get stuck into. Ellie Aldroyd, who is more educated than I am, says the French have got a saying called The Spirit of the Staircase. And she explained it by saying, when you've had that row with someone, you storm out and you're

going down the stairs, you think, that's what it is, the spirit of the staircase. And that's what I think Ben Stokes has sort of had in that interview. And yeah, there's loads of interesting things that he said, and all the things that I think were thrown at him in the aftermath of, Saturday he's gone away and reflected on and said you know what I do understand why people think we should have gone to Canberra but we couldn't there was a reason why we didn't it's obvious that some of the things that have been said about England have landed quite personally and we spoke about this on the podcast yesterday you know allegations have been arrogant to not

respecting test cricket well I don't think you could you definitely could not level that at Ben Stokes you know everything that he has been through in order just to get his body right, to keep playing test cricket, to want to keep going through that. So to say that he is arrogant and he's disrespected, the game just isn't right. And when I sort of asked him that question about, you know, what do you think about being called arrogant? He actually had a smile on his face. And he knew that this had been said about them.

And that line, you know, call us rubbish, don't call us arrogance. Well, I think that's probably fair enough, isn't it? Yeah, 100%. I mean, it was pretty rubbish, wasn't it, last week? And he probably felt rubbish afterwards. so yeah it's um i mean there are england players playing in an overseas ashes um i think the thing that's been missing for a long time has been a bit of arrogance i don't think they showed it last week to be honest i think they just got it badly wrong and i think the way he articulated it

as um you know he didn't want to lament his players but he did want them think twice about you know when they make those decisions to drive on the up outside off stump and you know take a bit of ownership of their game. I think the one thing that Stokes has always given this team from the outset is autonomy, and with that comes a degree of responsibility. And I think in the last week, the players have become even more aware of that.

The fact that the only person missing from training today is Mark Wood, because he's resting his knee. An optional training session in the morning, at a ground that they're not going to be playing at. I mean, as much as they enjoyed, quote-unquote, their time off and they're extra three days off. I imagine all of them were gagging to get to Brisbane and actually playing some cricket again.

I think another interesting thing about the evolution of this team under Ben Stokes and Brenda McCollum is everyone knew when Stokes and McCollum came in, England were rubbish. They had won... Really rubbish, yeah. So they'd won only one in 17.

And the way that England played and the results that they got at the time, rebuilt a connection between the England team and their fans. There was apathy towards the England team before England started playing the way they did and got the results that they have. And then over the past week, and I know that we live in a cricket media bubble

and we'll only hear certain things and comments below the line on articles and social media posts and all those different things. But it felt like the most disconnect between supporters and this particular England team. Why? because of because there's expectation on this team to do well and it's an ashes well yeah but an expectation to do well in the ashes like almost everything all other sins can be forgiven I think outside of an ashes series but there was so much and maybe for some people there remains hope that England can do well in the series and win the ashes and Perth we talked it up as England's big chance these conditions will suit them they've got to start well all those different things they're in a great position and then they lost and the man in which they lost and then the narrative

around what England did after they lost playing golf, whatever, not going to Canberra, when actually loads of those things are really reasonable decisions, loads of cricket has played golf there was quite good reasons for not going to campbell. And the Australian team have been able to go home, spend time with their family, so those... All of those things.

So there was a narrative that I think risked a disconnect and I find that switch in relationship I think between England and their fans interesting when you go back to the point that Ben Stoke started with and Ben and McCullum saying they were doing things

the way they were doing them for the good of test cricket and now what they're doing is not for the good of test cricket and I'm not saying I agree with it by the way that I think what they're doing is for the good of test cricket I think at one point they started liking their own message a little bit too much but I find that change and relationship interesting and I wonder if England have noticed it

well what they would have seen is an awful lot of social media posts and actually people themselves walking around Perth in England shirts, looking a bit miserable for three days, thinking, well, this might be my only ever Ashes experience, and it's finished in two days, and I'm now trying to go leafing my way through guidebooks for Western Australia and finding things to do. And it was bad optics. I mean, I don't necessarily buy that. I mean, I do have a lot of sympathy for people who spend that kind of money to come over

here. I mean, Stefan, I actually met a bloke who was only coming for the pertest and was really looking forward to it. at the same time, I mean, you can join the club, couldn't you? There are a lot of people who've come on previous ashes stores and have watched some absolute horror shows. We are only one test in. I think the problem does become, though, that it is a way of frustrating fans

and it is why the blowback from fans, whether it's this England team or previous England teams, is so much fiercer when it is an overseas ashes because the sacrifices people have to make to come over here as such that they channel their anger in that way and there is a bit more fury directed against the team and as Stefan was saying

there has been some but you think of the good times this team has given like matchgoing punters I mean it's been incredible even from a journalistic point of view you end up watching some things and certainly being around more seasoned journalists who've seen much more than I have

and them turning to you and being like yeah this is as good as it gets chasing down this score in a session is crazy doing all these remarkable things is, you know, it stays with you for life. I see what's also amazing, being 105 up with nine second winnings, winnings, remaining against Australia. And that's why this feels so disappointing. But in terms of like the optics of it, I mean, yeah, like I do feel for those fans,

but ultimately I don't necessarily think that's a healthy stick to beat this England team with. I think it's because the, I hate this word, but the brand, of this England cricket team is so strong and they are so set and vocal and open about the way that they want to do things and they are so different to what we've seen before and even after we've had more than three years to get used of the way that this England regime

want to run things the way that they want to do it does leave themselves open to criticism if they don't win and I'll flip it another way I'm a Stoke fan under Tony Pulis we loved it right when we were getting to the FA Cup final and we were finishing high in the Premier League. As soon as

they stopped winning, it became dull football to watch. And it's the other way around with England. They're playing exciting cricket that is great when you're winning, but it's infuriating as hell when they're not winning. Yeah, I think it's a very good point and sports fans are fickle and expectation grows and

I suppose it's because people came to this tour with everybody talking up England's chances that there was that huge sense of deflation after that first game. What about the Canberra decision, Vish, because there's been so much debate about it, but I think I've changed my mind on it. I think having been in the camp of why wouldn't you play, as Ben Stokes said,

you've got an opportunity for competitive pink ball cricket, why wouldn't you take it? But actually coming here, the difference in climate, the fact that if you're a batter that's sent on their own that gets a first baller, you've got two days hanging around in Canberra, what benefit is it? Yeah, I think I've made my mind up, but it has. has changed, much like yours, because to my mind, yeah, with the three days off, with the fact that there is cricket available to them and relevant cricket, I suppose, that would be the way I'd put it. Even with the lack of balance, people talk about, you know, someone like Jamie

Smith, who's never played a pink ball game, just keeping to the pink ball, let alone batting against it, will be something that he'd be able to, you know, it's certainly help him. It could surely couldn't hinder him. And then at the same time, as you say, you come here, and because of the noise, the need for the team to be together, I think is greater, actually. Obviously, Josh Tongue might actually come into contention if Mark Wood's knee is worse than fear,

or certainly if it doesn't improve. But, yeah, to go back to, I suppose, my opinion on the camera thing, just having them together, just even little things like having a bit of a run around here and, you know, they were playing football before, they're in the nets now. It is that kind of togetherness is vitally important

because not just on the previous Ashton, even during COVID where the movements were restricted, but so many other Ashes Tours, you see it come a part of the seams really early when they're just not together, when people are caught doing different things and photographed doing different things and some things that they're not supposed to do.

And I feel like this is just a more sensible way of just controlling everything, I suppose. Canberra debate was just muddied by the fact that England lost in two days, but all things being equal, logistically, it was really difficult for more England players to go and play in that game. Just to travel in, the fact that they would have only arrived here after a day nighter in Canberra on Monday,

then there had only been two full days of training going into the test match. I think if you asked every England player here, in an ideal world, would you have been able to do it all? They probably would have said yes, but there just isn't the time to do it. To Vish's point about the togetherness of the team, The way Ben Stokes spoke today, I'd have been really concerned if he'd come out all guns blazing, firing bullets to people who've criticised them about not going to Canberra, criticise their attitude, criticised their method.

But what we saw of Ben Stokes today is the Ben Stokes that we know really. That is how he normally deals with the media. That was normal Ben Stokes. Ben Stokes on Saturday was a different Ben Stokes. I think what's also worth sort of pointing out is Ben Stokes is unusual in an elite athlete that he will go up to different members of the media, shake you by the hand, know your name, ask how you're doing. And there is a sense that he fully recognises the importance of his duty,

not just as a cricketer, but as a person off and on the field delivering that message and ensuring that actually he does show a bit of humility. And I thought it was really interesting the line, you know, as Stefan mentioned, call us rubbish, don't call us arrogant. Yeah, yeah 100%. I think he I suppose without going over old ground, the fact

that he did this medium engagement in the first place was obviously a sign that he wanted to I suppose not necessarily get ahead of everything but stem the flow of nonsense as it were, certainly from his perspective. But I think he's very protective of these players.

You mentioned the fact that he'll come up to us and shake our hand. That's just like a normal, decent thing to do anyway. But not everyone would. No, I know. And that's more on them than him, I suppose. But I think the other thing about that is, like, he is open to the fact that he consumes everything. He'll read things.

He will pull people up on things. And I think, as he actually mentioned when they were in Perth at the start with the West Australian front pages, you know, I think he was thumbing through them every morning and got to a point where he saw Joe Root on them. And he went, oh, damn. that's what the heat to be taken from him yeah yeah like he would happily take the bullets and yeah take the heat but as soon as it moves to someone else honestly and particularly a mate of

his then it became a problem and i suppose this was just simply him almost kind of i was going to say an umbrella because it's boiling here but it's on the same now but yeah he almost becomes that kind of parasol over everyone and takes the heat and that's i suppose what he's going to do here that's what he's going to probably do twice between now and the the start of the test as well because he's going to speak to the UK media again and then he's going to do his press conference and yeah he's got a busy week off the field certainly just going back to that point of togetherness as well and you know the idea of England teams falling apart on Ashes series again it's something we spoke about a couple of

days ago on the podcast I just I can't see that in this group even if the results don't go their way and you know from what we're seeing today at Alan Borderfield everyone is here apart from Mark Wood you know this is like I said it's a session that some may have ordinarily ignored I know maybe they're quite glad to get back to playing cricket

after not doing a lot for a few days the only thing I want to say is I feel like in terms of providing balance over the past week I found myself defending England quite a lot last week was rubbish like it was utterly awful last Saturday afternoon

and there were some very very angry fans and let's make no bones about that people that had spent life savings and had huge expectations, rightly or wrongly, because we've seen Ashes' tours of yesteryear and whether our expectations are out of line with what historically England have expected coming to Australia, they were rubbish.

Yeah, and I think just in terms of providing that balance, it comes from having been close to the team for a long time, and when decisions that they make are scrutinised and criticised with quite a lot of justification, you are trying to say, well, actually this is the reason. and why it was made and it doesn't matter whether you are you know it's fine to disagree with those decisions that's totally cool but this is the reason why they've done it but let's not get away from the fact that last saturday was as bad as it's ever been for an england team in this

country and in the next five days somehow they have got to turn it around to be better in conditions that are completely alien to some of the team and at best far behind what Australia know. England play so little pink ball cricket. The little bit that they've played, they haven't been very good at. Australia play loads of it. They're really good at it. They've got the best pink baller in the world at a ground where England have not won since 1986. The reason we are so angry about what happened last Saturday is because that was England's chance and this week it is much, much harder. I think the other thing about last week is that, you know,

Stefan and I have covered this team from its inception, and I think a lot of the criticism that's thrown at them is often slightly overblown because it's done from a caricature of what they're about. So it is, you know, quite literally throwing their wickets away, tossing the ball off in the air, and not really bothering to play the match situation. And they have done that in part, so they did that in Lord's, in 2023, against Australia.

They did that in India, in the fourth test as well, but they were in strong positions, and it felt like just a bit more cunning, a bit more nouse, a bit more sense would get them to cash in that winning position. And the worst thing here was this was the character, that performance was a caricature performance that their naysayers have been presenting

as why they'll never be good, why it's all, you know, snake oil and this and the other. They go and do that. they've gone to do that on the biggest stage when the world is watching, essentially. And the most important assignment, that's what they do. And I think the important thing about this team as well, if we kind of keep going with the caricature, is they are very good at coming back from defeat.

They are very good at forgetting really, really bad moments, honestly. We saw it in 2023. We kind of didn't really see it on the field in India, per se, But certainly they restarted that summer thinking, right, we've just got to start again. They've made it a few tweaks to personnel as well, some high-profile tweets to personnel. And if it wasn't a pink ball, if Mitchell Stark wasn't Mitchell Stark, probably fancy England's chances a bit more square in the series. The fact is they might come to rue what they did for those three hours come next week

because the odds are really stacked against them in Brisbane. those allegations of what vish is getting at come from the fact that england's worst defeats in this time are self-inflicted so wellington when they asked india new zealand rather to follow on and lost by one run they declared in the first ashes test at edge boston on day one and lost nathan lion limps off at lords in 2003 england in a great position and they lose um was it rajcott vish where joe rood yeah joe played his is scoop at Jasperit Bumra when Ravichandra and Ashton had left the game because his mother was ill, lost the game. Sri Lanka at the Oval, India at the Oval,

just in the past summer when they needed 70 to win with seven wickets in hand. England's worst defeats in this era have been self-inflicted. And no matter all of the good times, New Zealand, Trent Bridge, chasing down that one-off game against India at Edgebustra. All of those times that it's been absolutely exhilarating, England have still not won a five-match series under Stokes and McCullum and I don't think they've won one since 2018, India at home. Is that the last one that they won?

So the biggest prizes have still eluded this team and so their critics have got that stick with which to beat them. Play the way you want but win the biggest prizes and you haven't done that yet. I suppose it's the football team that's got a 2-0 lead and loses 3-2. It's a very different feeling to win you're 3-0 down and come fighting back. and lose three, two, and that. Do you know what I mean? It's all context and people feel frustrated

because it looks as though England are creating these marvellous opportunities and then they sort of hand them away and that feels worse as a spectator than it would do if you lose in another way. You see what I mean? Yeah, someone likened Basball to Ange Ball, essentially. Ange Posthaglu's Tottenham Hotspur

where they are thrilling to watch. and all that does is give the opponents an opportunity to beat them. Yeah, it's hard not to disagree with that comparison because it has, regardless of the results, it has been thoroughly entertaining. I think, you know, we don't necessarily need to get into the philosophical side of it, but the freeing nature of this way of playing has to come to the fore now, really, and it has to come to the four, ironically, with a bit more responsibility. They do have an opportunity, though, in the...

sense that once again the one bit of news that we have had from the australian camp over the last few days stephen is pat cummins not named in the squad now there are some that are suggesting he could yet play but the talk is that he officially at least is not going to be available for the second test yeah and you know before the first test a few of us wondered if we were being grifted when pat cummins was steaming in the nets you know that he could do the um i really wanted it to be ben stokes standing out in the middle in perth and then The lights couldn't have gone out because it was daylight. But like Pat Cummings theme music plays,

W.W.E. style. He's got his blazer on. He comes down the steps. Jim Ross commentating. That's Pat Cummins. Now it could happen at a day nighter, obviously, that he does appear like that. I don't think he will.

I don't understand why you would name Steve Smith as captain now and then change that. But he might. His record with a pink ball is comparable to Mitchell Starks, their average and strong. rate are pretty similar. It just so happens that Mitchell Stark has played more test matches and has many more wickets. Pat Cummins is, you know, up there with Jasper Bummeras, pound for pound, the best fast bowler in the world. So yes, playing against a team that doesn't have Pat Cummins

in it is an advantage, but England just lost to a team that didn't have Pat Cummins in it. Yeah, he, I mean, he looked amazing in the nets at Perth, didn't he? Like, they were kind of parading a champion horse that wasn't going to run in that race. Can I bet on that one? Yeah, the noise around it has been quite interesting because he'll still be around. He'll still be training with them. The bait and switch, I mean, that's the only thing missing in this ashes, surely. It's really leading to Steph's WWE comparison. Yeah, let's just go.

Let's just go into it. Let's have, I don't know, Ather's breaking out from the press box, a chair. Let's really go a whole hog with this. Because it is the ashes. We're allowed to be a little bit silly, aren't we? The other thing about Stark as well, if we're going to be. really, if we go into the micros of it, Stark has an incredible record with a pink ball. He's also got an incredible record against Ben Stokes.

I think the fact that he's learned the wobble seam and perfected the wobble seam actually to give Starr, the credit he deserves, means that he's basically changed the angle of attack on Stokes. He used to bowl him quite a lot. And now he just still bowl him, as he did in the first place, but he gets him, basically what I'm trying to say is he gets him on both sides of the bat now. and I think that is a real problem for Stokes particularly as someone who is either the accelerator

or the I suppose the kind of It can be the absorber Yeah exactly, yeah When there is a situation that needs that And I don't know how This is one of the things that we We don't really get to drill down with with Stokes The Cricketer

Because we focus somewhat of him as the captain And as we have done just there I think he spoke about half an hour just about, essentially about captaincy. We never really get to drill down in the bowling side of it or the batting side of it. I remember, I think, Stephanie, you were there when I asked him if he'd ever considered opening the bowling

and he looked at me like I'd asked if I could, you know, come to his house on Christmas Day and sit on his lap. Like, he looked horrified by the idea and just didn't entertain it at all. And here, I'm really curious about his batting because on the face of it, his game is, with bat and ball, it's perfectly suited to Australia. The numbers don't quite translate.

and I appreciate that with the fact that he missed 1718 but yeah I'm really really curious about him because I think his FIFA as impressive as that was was very much on the shoulders of the other bowlers but England desperately need his runs at the moment I think and they have done for a while actually I guess just to sort of bring it all full circle as I was thinking about earlier on

in terms of you know Stokes and the influence on this team and the way that they play and what they've done in the past it's great to come from behind to have your backs to the wall and to prove everyone wrong and to level the series in Brisbane in a game you're not supposed to win

it's brilliant to pull off those amazing run chases on the last day and break records and all that do you know what's even better getting ahead staying ahead and winning well not getting behind in the first place and that is the thing that would be great to see

from this England team. But who watches WWE for a straightforward dominating fight? Well said. Well said. Before we wrap this up, by the way, can we just clarify which of you two is in trouble with Marcus Drosothic? Me. Was it you? It was me because a pink ball came our way from the net, and I wanted to get a little

photo of it for our social media. And literally, Marcus Droskothic shouted, can we have our ball back, please? Yeah, a little photo. How many little photos did you not take him? Seven or eight. England assistant coach, and, you know, one of their. great opening batters have just had to ask you. One of the nicest blokes as well.

Yeah, I've had to ask you for his ballback. Well, there you go. It's all about team relations, as we know. Anyway, maybe we can add stubborn to the list of words that England could be described as, as well. If they can turn things round here in the steamy conditions of Brisbane. Right, that'll do us from here at Alan Borderfield. Thank you to Stefan Schemelt, the BBC's chief cricket reporter, also to Vitucian and Tharaja from ESPN Crick Info. England continue to net beside us and our coverage of this men's ashes series continues apace as well. BBC Sport website and app for all of the news and details. And if you just search Ashes on BBC sounds, you'll find all of our podcasts and material there as well. Next test match, the second of the series, the day-night game gets underway in the early hours of Thursday, a 4 a.m. start. England looking to level up the series. We've heard from the captain. We'll hear plenty more over the

next few days as well. Thanks for listening. We'll speak to you soon. TMS at the Ashes. Welcome to Terlenders. I'm Greg James. He's Felix White. Hello. And that is England's greatest ever bowler, Jimmy Anderson. Hello. We've finally got our break on BBC iPlay. It's lovely to be here. England haven't won a test match in Australia since the 2010-2011 series, which is a long time ago. Give us a few reasons as to White's difficult. The wickets are different, the ball's different, and the heat as well.

The media coverage over there is so much bigger than a test series in England for example, and cricket over there is huge. Plus, Australia are amazing in their own country. Tail Enders. Watch on IPlayer. Listen, on BBC Sounds. To embrace the impossible

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