Test Match Special - The Ashes: England show fight, but on brink of defeat

Episode Date: December 20, 2025

Simon Mann is joined by Jonathan Agnew, Phil Tufnell, Andy Zaltzman and Glenn McGrath to look back on an improved day for England. However, they are still on the brink of defeat as Australia lie 4 wickets away from retaining the Ashes. There’s also reaction from Zak Crawley, Alex Carey and Mitchell Starc plus a fascinating chat with former Australia fast bowler turned coach Jason Gillespie.

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It was bowled in. Bowled Stokes. Coming forward. Lovely bowling from Lion. Lans that on a roundabout. Well, middle stuff, but it's turned past the outside edge. It's clipped the top of off.

Stokes himself acknowledges it. Gives a little nod and says, well, don't know what I could have done about that. So Australia are closing in. They need four. more wickets to retain the ashes. England resisted on the fourth day,

but too much damage was done earlier in the match for them to recover. 207 for 6 at the close of play. They need a further 228 more to win the game. Set 435 to win. After Australia were bowed out for 349, they lost the last six wickets for 38 in 65 balls.

England had a couple of overs before lunch. They lost Duckett. And Australia just chipped away. Crawley made a fine 85, Route 39, Brook 30. But Nathan Lyon, as we thought he would do, had an impact on this fourth day. He picked up three quick wickets. He's taken three for 64 from 18 overs, and he's now on 567 test match wickets. Glenn McGrath is here, Phil Tufnell is here.

Jonathan Agnew is here. Well, what are your initial thoughts on that day's play, Jonathan? Well, funnily enough, England had quite a reasonable day, But the damage had been done, isn't it? 168 for 8 in their first innings and replied to 371. And really that was the telling moment, wasn't it? I know they got that lead down to 85, but Australia's battered them out of the game,

excellent 170 from head. But today, all we've been asking throughout this series, and before it, by the way, you can pinpoint games in the last 18 months that have been lost when they really shouldn't have been Is this for more just basic cricket to be played? And they played it today. They played in some ways an excellent game, six for 38.

Plan A was rigidly stuck to. Pitch the ball up, round about the off dump. You take wickets. Oh, we have them. We're taking six for 38. Now, they were sort of pushing on a bit, Ostrader, I suppose. At that stage, you can look at one or two wickets. But even so, they bowled sensibly.

There wasn't the silly fields. That was all they could ask for. really, Duckett is disappointing. He's had a poor series so far as averaging about 16, I think, with the bat. Pope, as what happens when you're struggling, you fall to a brilliant catch, and that was a brilliant catch. Not a great

shot, mind you. It was still edged into the slips, but it was brilliantly taken, and on many other days, that that wouldn't have happened, but I just thought the day they all tried to play sensibly. People will look at Harry Brooks dismissal and go, oh, look, oh, craggy, bowl playing the reverse suite. Yeah, I get

that, but actually they had played the reverse sweep quite deliberately and played it well against Lyon to stop him from just bowling at them all the time with close fielders the ball's been popping up and spinning a bit there's some bounce it's actually a totally legitimate tactic the problem with the reverse sweep and I'm no bounceman and I never even tried to play it but the problem is it does have to be a premeditated shot and most of the time that offspin is going to be bowling outside the off stump you can play that reverse sweep down into that offside deep area and he can play it with impunity problem with that ball was that it was straight didn't really spin very much but pitch around about middle and off and hit middle and leg and therefore you're in a bad position and if you miss it you're gone so that will look horrible in the highlights I don't think it's necessarily a fair reflection of

having the battered today I think they did they batted well that was well it was a shot that didn't come off but we understand we understand why he played it and we have been as critical of Brooke in this series as anybody but I'm not going to really criticise that shot because under the circumstances

that was an okay shot to attempt, at least if he just didn't play it. Tupper, as an ex-spinner, how did you see it? Well, no, yeah, just pick it up on the word that both of you said they're damage. When England do damage, it's catastrophic, isn't it? You know what I mean? Travis Head gets 160. We lose four wickets in clusters.

It's not just, you know, a couple of wickets and then you rebuild or, you know, okay, we've had a bad half an hour, bad hour spell with the ball. We'll drag it back and get the run rate back again. the damage just seems to be you can't come back from it and that's why as john said there you had these little passes of play we did quite well today oh lovely oh you've got ourselves back in the game no because there has been masses of explosions before and you just can't play test cricket like that and try to clutch your way back into it it's gone it's too far ahead you know chasing 440 or something you know it's not going to happen you know so that that's the thing but as a spin bowler a beautiful bit

spin bowling. Lovely. Listen, he got worked around a little bit and the guy was... They were going

about five and over for a while there. They were not letting him bowl, and just bowl them

in a control way. Well, he had a couple of spells he was taken off and that's what you do. You try and

get rid of the spinner. You don't let him settle but then the class of the fella all those wickets

you know, you stick, you don't panic. You put your field around and you just think, well hold on a minute

you know, I'm going to use my art and my craft and you'll have to play pretty well to keep doing that and then you get that Harrybrook wicket and then Ben Stokes not a great starter against spin you get a ball like that well

cry a while you're all over yeah you're all over you're all over them you know what I mean and that's when the spinner comes in and your men round the band way way way way everyone's jumping and jabber in and everything you know it's tricky Glenn as somebody didn't get as many test wickets as Nathan Lyon oh that's so Glenn I'm not having that I know I didn't get to play quite as many games How did you see the Nathan Lion's spell?

No, he was always going to have a big impact here. And I thought the way Zach Crawley and Harry Brooke played him, they played him well. But like you said, the damage had been done. Knock him over for nothing today, six wickets. But 435, the biggest world record here by over 100 runs and a world record of all time chase. so you're up against it

and you just have to hang in there and yeah once that one snuck through hurry Brooke then Ben Stokes got a really good one that turned you know it showed probably a foot and a half by the time it hit the top of off stump and you know Zach Crowley I thought

batted really well and just deceived in flight just brought him forward Nathan Lyon so Lion showed what he could do but Crawley and Brooke didn't let him settle and then once he got that breakthrough it was he was all over So, yeah, you know, it's, but you're up against it.

Chasing 435, Australia can just keep hanging. They pick up one here. They build another partnership. Keep chipping away, get one there. And so Australia were always pretty much on top. And it was a lovely little bowling, a bit of bowling to Crawley. I was on next door, actually. And I was on ABC.

Yeah, and I was just commentating. And I said, oh, they left that lovely big gap open, didn't they? Mid off all the way around to a backward point. So it's all that green space. for Crawley as he's getting to 100. And I said, oh, he's looking just to bowl a little bit fuller and a little bit wider, just so he's starting to think to himself, all what I've got to do is just get myself forward

and just time it. I get myself another little four there, you know, and get myself into the 90s. And your mind starts perhaps rushing forward a little bit, lovely bit of bowling. Just toss it up, too, isn't it? Yeah, just tossed it up a little bit. And you just got the drag.

I mean, that's the class and the quality of the bowling. Is that what you were thinking when you were in the 80s and 90s? Well, no, it was what I was thinking when I was bowling. Exactly. And I usually had 80 or 90 runs against me. But, no, see, I love seeing that, you know. And that is, that's why we all love cricket. You know what I mean?

It is frustrating, though, as we keep saying the same point. England in this match generally have tried to play in the traditional way. And actually, I know they're going to lose it. but there have been moments why can't they just play like this more often? Why haven't they played like this in this series? Why has everything got to be crash bang, wall up? Why are they trying to

rewrite the way that you play test cricket? It stands there and Australia giving them an object lesson in how you play test cricket. It hasn't changed. Yes, Tavid Heads is a positive player as we've seen but England has tried to seem to have pushed everything beyond the limit.

They've pushed the batting beyond the limit. they push the bowling beyond the limit, they push their field placings beyond common sense. Plan A is just being discarded far too often and especially even when you battsmen have come in. I think they're just paying the price for just trying to be too clever. They've tried something that is not possible to achieve. Yeah, when you think about great teams,

great teams don't play one way. No. They know how to play in their own conditions, brilliant. But when you travel overseas, When you go to different conditions, you've got to adapt, and the great teams adapt and can find ways to score runs, take wickets. And that's sort of where the England team are at the moment. They play their way, and I think they're now trying to adapt this series has gone.

But, yeah, it's a big learning experience. How they bounce back in the next two test matches is going to be defined them quite a bit, I think. We've got a player. There's going to be a player that's going to be interviewed today, I think. I think Zach Crawley's coming out. The event's actually, there's a bit of good news to spread. We haven't actually heard him from him yet. But the first instance, it's not going to be the bus driver.

I think it's going to be Zach Crawley who's going to come out and talk about the day's play. Fair enough. He played well today. Play beautiful. What was he? One runoff of 30 balls or something? He got 85 or 151. He just looked comfortable playing that way.

Composed, good tempo. When the ball was there, he put it away when it was full, when it was short. when it was short, put it away, but in between he just kept a good balls out. He played no great big booming drives on the up. It was really well. Tempo's the word. And our tempo has been too much of a gallop, you know.

You're not going to win the Grand National. Impatience, it's built. If you start off, you know, on your horse. Sprinting in the marathon, good luck. Yeah, absolutely. Just on Zach Crawley, though. Look, he played really well, and he got himself in. But he got out in, you know, in 70s, 80s.

again, that doesn't actually get you very far ultimately, does it? That sounds ultra-critical. Ultra-critical, that is a good bit of bowling by one of the world's best spin-bowlers on a pitch that's spinning and turning and bouncing a little bit. So that's just part of the game. You can't say he's out in the 80s again. Especially because you've just like Brooke and Stokes. So the game's changed and all of a sudden, what do I do?

Do I try to force it a bit more? I think it was just the state of the game and a very, very good piece of bowling is tough to see. I'd love to know how some of these players actually do feel and when they're going to be liberated to speak when they write books or whatever

how they do look back at this time themselves well because they want to play in a different way and they're encouraged to play in any one way you know what sort of player you are and you know what sort of bowler you are and you know how the tempo that suits your batting at the start of all of this remember how Joe Roots seemed totally

confused, didn't he? Playing reverse ramps and all sorts of things, come on, man. Now he's settled into just playing his own way again because he's such a good player that he's able to, but you just wonder someone like Zach Crawley, who just looks so good playing at this tempo, you know, if he's speaking honestly one day, would he say well, I just felt that I had to go out there and smack it about, I didn't really want to. Now, I'm putting words into his mouth. But it will be interesting, won't it, to see how the players, because some

thrive playing like this, Johnny Beresto actually thrive playing and dislike this, certainly Ben Stokes loves it, he goes out there and has a fight, but he's also gone into that ultra-defensive mode when it suited him to. I just wonder, those who don't have much of a loud voice,

your bride and casts and these people coming and thumping the ball in halfway down, bowling bounces, you know, how much they actually really felt, I don't really want to be doing this, only playing the game that I've played in order to be picked to this level. And then I'm asked to do something different.

And it'll be interesting. Yeah, it's important to play the why you got picked in the first place. If you're changing your game and it's not working, your career's on the line. You play a few games and you're not happy. Next year, you're out of the team and you're done. So, yeah, you pick for a reason and that's, you shouldn't change. Well, Doggett, for instance, we watched Doggett running in and hurling down bounces in the last test match. He's a guy who pitched the ball up and swings, or so it's not.

Yeah, for a one-off, maybe, it's okay. Just stayed at the game. But this has become such an England tactic. And we said yesterday, not something that you can practice necessarily. Anyway, that's just a thought. I'll be interested to speak to some people later on. Yeah. I think we all would really.

You want to know kind of what they're really thinking. Because they've been so hard to stick to the script. Some of the nonsense that Duckett spoke in India. You know, bring it on. We'll chase whatever we like. Really? You know, is that just because he feels that he has to say that? You can't possibly say anything that's slightly.

Slightly negative. That's okay to talk it up, but you've got to go out and do it. You've got to go out and do it. Okay, look, we are going to hear from a player. We've had coaches for the first three days of this test match. Jack Crawley is with Henry Moran. A day where England fans were calling for some to fights and your side showed that. Yeah, we're never going to give up, but, you know, it's going to be always going to be tricky.

You know, four feelings at Adelaide for the quality of their bowling attack. We tried a heart out as we have the whole time, but it wasn't probably not enough again, but yeah, it's disappointing at the moment. Your own performance today, how did you approach it mentality-wise with such a big target? We talk about this a lot, and I think we've been successful chasing because we play it like the first innings. I just tried to see ball and hit ball like it was the first innings. We spoke about that before and try to take the scoreboard out of it. That's what we always try and do. And yeah, I was pleased about it.

Obviously, it's still fresh. I only got out half an hour ago. pretty upset about it but yeah I was pleased about I played in total. Because days like this, series like this are difficult to keep your head up, keep your game in the shape that you want it to be. How have you done that yourself to play in innings that is one of positivity today? Oh, we're never going to give up. Every time you're back it's an opportunity against the top opposition in their home country so you know we all saw it as a great

opportunity to try and do something special. Obviously they've pulled a while and we're up against it now but you know we were never going to give up realistically the ashes have gone barring something very unusual how is that dressing room oh you know we came here we came in to win the ashes and it looks like you know the boys are going to give it a good crack tomorrow and we won't give it to them but you know we're probably up against it so yeah it's flat but yeah at this point at this point we haven't quite performed how we wanted to and third place Australia they've been living quality throughout

has it surprised you the the level of performance that Australia provided, particularly given that some of their bowling attack coming back into the squad, some missing? No, I hadn't surprised, to be honest. I know how good they are in the home country. They're a very good side in these conditions and in all conditions. They've got great players all over the place and their bowling attacks, especially, I mean, I don't know how many wickets is, it's in the thousands, I know, but it's, yeah, they're a top side and we have to be our best to get something out of it and we've been probably just short of that, but there's

still, it's still time to put that right. And it's Ashes Cricket, there's always something to play for, and that might be individual places. Ollie Pope is somebody under pressure. Well, maybe from you guys, not from inside the camp. We all know how good a player is, and we talk about all the time. I think he's had a really good year the last year. It's been nice to scored hundreds when we needed him to, and he played some really good knocks. So, yeah, I think that's just talked from the outside.

There's no chat like that on Ollie in the camp. And within the camp, how is morale more generally? How are you keeping the head up and who's making sure that you do? Oh listen, this is the time of our lives really. You come over here and there's a dream come true to play in the ashes away from home. And like I said, we wanted to win. I desperately wanted to win and to lose is disappointing, but it's still, you know, you can't play grounds like this and get too down.

You know, it's an amazing place to play cricket, something like what I thought about, well we all thought about from a young age. So you come here and you try and put your best foot forward and against a good opposition, it's going to be hard. But, you know, it's a great opportunity all the time. Those fans never stopped singing. There's been real commitment from the Barmy Army, and do you feel that today you've rewarded them

with the wickets in the morning session and the fight that you've shown? Yeah, I mean, they're always unbelievable. Whether we're a bad day or a good day, they always show up and cheer for us. So massive thanks to them for everyone who's come out and supported us. But yeah, that's a huge reason why we'll never give up.

Although it might look like at times cricket's a weird game like that where it can sometimes look like you haven't put your best before but that's never the case we're always trying to hire out there and that's partly because we get such good support do you feel that despite the challenges of the series you can still turn what is left of it into a positive for england and what positives can still be gained from the series well yeah we can start with tomorrow show some really good fight and you know two very good players of the crease put a bit dent in that total and you know we'll never give up and then the last two you know we haven't I won a test here in a while, so it's a chance to win those two tests.

And if it can get it back to three two, and then suddenly it was a pretty good series. And we were this close, maybe you could argue in Perth and in Brisbane. At times as well, we were right in it. This game, it's a huge toss for them to win with the way it's spinning now. I'll probably swap both tosses that we won in the first two for this toss. And Stoosy was probably said the same, but yeah, we're still playing its play for always. And just finally this pitch You've been out there recently

I mean how tough is it out there Yeah it's tricky I mean with a spin like that And they set good fields Don't they and they make it hard for you to score And then they're just clever With their fields out here And they make it hard for you

And they're obviously top bowlers So it was a challenge But if you You know if you have a decent plan Then it's doable Well played today Zach Thanks for your time Thank you

Zach Crawley speaking to Henry Moran Crawley making 85 today before he was stumped by Kerry off line out there for 151 balls. Defending Olly Pope, as he inevitably will. It's a difficult one, isn't it, when your teammate is struggling. But Olly Pope has struggled in this series

and he has struggled against Australia. And although it was a great catch and that kind of obscures things in a way, he still was a fidgety push at the ball. He nicked off and he was caught at slip. Is his place now, is he unselectable? more from the next game? It's not unselectable because he's a good player.

And he's another one who I would love to see bat without the pressures of having to score quickly. And another one who'd just like to see him just play. I mean, yeah, it wasn't a great shot today. It wasn't a bad shot. It wasn't a great shot. It was a fantastic catch. I mean, there are two options.

You know, let's see how Jamie Smith goes. You know, people talk about Olli Pope being a middle order bats. And, well, I mean, I'm not suggesting this is going to happen or what this should happen. But an option is that he does drop down the order and keeps wicked. He is here as the reserve keeper. Smith's had a pretty miserable series, let's be honest.

Let's see how he bats tomorrow. But I don't think they can carry on without making a change. I think we've talked before about the accountability of the batsman and there just doesn't seem to be any in this team because there's no pressure on the places. There's just nobody to come in.

The only person to come in is Jacob Bethel. Who knows what he can bring? It's a tough call for him. he hasn't had very little cricket you know we know all the conversations about Jacob Bethel we've had them before but he's here England are struggling

with the bat Ollie Pope is having a bad time I think his I mean his first innings dismissal here was grotesque and I'm thinking of Brisbane as well the dismissal the second thing is of Brisbane it's just you know they're two really bad dismissals for number three

you know why why did he play those shots Why did he play that shot against Nathan Lyon here? It was really hard to work that out. And you can only assume, as Geoffrey would say, his mind scrambled, in which case you've got to go and put him away and let someone else have a go. Because you need competition for places.

And again, there's a big criticism of mind of this squad. There's no competition. There's no accountability. So you get out, you play a rash shot. Oh, okay. Well, anyway, I'm playing next week. That's good news. It shouldn't be like that in a team.

Sometimes you need to take a player out, don't you? you need to have people breathing down your neck and you need to have somebody in form you'd have somebody playing in games between test matches who's getting into form and putting pressure on the people that are playing it's not uncomfortable it's not a bad thing it's a good thing

it's a good thing to have people and the players under pressure from others within the squad and that's just not happening how do you see it glen as someone that would be bowling to a player like ollie pope at number three how would you try to work him out and get him out would you see him as kind of quite an easy target as a number three

I think the way the Australians have bowled to him, they've bowed well and, you know, Pat Cummins coming back in and sort of hitting the ground running the areas he bowls and he always lets the ball go and it feels like it's angling into off-stump and you always feel like you're committed to play it and then it just seems to somehow straighten and bring you into sort of edging it or playing shots

you don't want to. He played a missed a few off-comans earlier and then drew about that edge. So, yeah, it's one of those things. You look at Kwajah, innings, you know, I didn't think he looked comfortable there against a new ball because, you know, he's 39 now, reflex is not quite the same. He drops down to, what was it, number four? And all of a sudden, he's got more time. So maybe for Pope, just to drop back down the order, a little bit might be just a game

changer for him. All of a sudden, come in, the new ball's not as hard, you know, and off you go. Do you see Pope really as a number three, you know, now and in the future, Angers, or is really know. Is he really a middle order player? It depends if you're talking sort of old school number threes. You know, number three batsman usually is somebody who could have necessarily opened the batting in my view.

Is that sort of a player? Sometimes they go in and the openers to put on 130 for the first wicket and you can play a bit more freely. But often, if you're a new ball, as Glenn knows, I mean, the odds are you going to get one of them out with a new ball? And therefore the number three is in there usually under a bit of pressure.

I don't think if you look at Pope, he doesn't look like he's not a calming influence normally the number five number six could go out there and be a bit more skittish and a bit more players shots and stuff so no I think I think he is if I'm honest a middle order batsman

yeah you know it's the opening batsman's job is to see the new ball off and you're coming up against some of the world's best team Mitchell Stark with that new ball is unbelievable three out of six innings he's taking a wicket in the first over so really number three is out there may face a ball before the other opener so that's

always part of the issue you know whether dropping down is going to help that and give him a little bit more confidence a bit more time yeah we'll wait and see but yeah on these you know especially england bowl batsmen coming here the extra bounce yeah it does take a little while getting used to it and if you sort of go hard at the ball yeah it you know you're you're going to find it tough. And someone like Ben Duckett, I thought Duckett, I was really keen to see how he's going to go over here.

You can't come to Australia and not leave a ball because sooner or later, one of those early ones that bounces is going to get your name on it. Pope has been going in basically with a score on naught. Every time, isn't he? More or less. Something to be fair to him, he's not had an easy right.

Yeah, you're not coming in at 1 for 112 or 120. No, he's going to the 0.4. one most of the time he's out there so it's not it's not been an easy tour for him but that I go do go back to that shot in the first things here was pretty nasty that wasn't that indeed right let's hear from the Australia camp now first weekkeeper Alex Carey he's been speaking to Isha Goa forward hits to fall in that final session I imagine you can just smell the taste of victory now oh no we'll reflect on today and come up with plans for tomorrow we We know these guys are quality players right to the end

and, yeah, we want to keep working hard and probably not look too far ahead. We saw you come down the wicket to have a chat to Nathan Line ahead of the Ben Stokes' wicket. What did you say to him? Did I? No, look, I just thought Nathan was bowling really well

and just continue to put lots of energy on the ball. He tore it away all day and finally got some reward. And, yeah, I just wanted him to bowl as much energy as possible. There's enough out there. We saw that and finally, you know, he got a couple of late wicket. You must be pleased with your own contributions in this test match as well, 150 this morning and also seven dismissals. Yeah, look, I always want to contribute to helping this team win games of cricket.

Understand there's still a lot of work to do tomorrow morning. So far, so good. But like I said, well, personally, I don't look too far ahead. It's probably reflect and jump in the pool tonight and get home to the kids and come back tomorrow and really look forward to it. I think the boys are bowling great areas. We know it would be hard work again. That's Alex Carey with Issa Gouer. We can also hear now from the bowler of the series so far.

Mitchell Stark, he's been speaking with Corbyn, Middlemast and the ABC team. Fantastic cricket again. I think the way that Alex and the King Adelaide went about it in his last innings, their partnership was phenomenal. So, no, great to see the two boys in the home game. Do phenomenally well with the bat. Kess in the first innings, backing it up in the second. Patty, fresh legs coming in doing his thing and the goat.

He said he wanted to sink his teeth in and today he's shown why he's so good. So still some work to do, but certainly a very good day. Matt, we've seen some turn from Nathan and even Travis, but is there anything there for the quick? Is there any movement off the seam or some keeping low? I think it was a little bit more so with the harder ball. Probably not as much with the older ball. What are we 60 or over, 63 over a ball. So I think it's just hitting that nagging length, building that pressure.

Obviously Nathan from the other end doing his thing. So, yeah, I think there was enough at times. It was certainly not the green nippy wicker that we've seen with a pink ball here in the last few years. So, yeah, a bit of hard of work to get your rewards. But that's test cricket, and that's why we love it, isn't it? Yeah, and how are you going with the footmarks? Yeah, not the most enjoyable thing.

They've bowled around the wicket a lot and I'm on the side of a few mounts. So the groundies have had their work cut out for them. But that's okay. That's what bowling in the fourth innings is like. It obviously ended pretty quick today for the lower order. What do you put that down to us? Was it just a bad day?

Or were you guys just a little too eager to get out there and have a roll? Certainly not eager to get a have a roll. I'm still happy to score some runs. You got to start farned with a strike, great man. I did it right in Brisbane. Yeah, I know. You were great today. What are they just long?

He's going to stand on the stuff today. He's just not watching the pellet. Oh, yeah, well, and then Scotty up the chimney, but that's okay. Sometimes it happens that way. I think we've been pretty good with the lower order throughout so far. So, yeah, it can be forgiven for one hiccup, but, yeah, we're in a really good position. They actually look like they bowed better today, to be fair. They didn't bowl the short and wide and wasn't cut-shot city.

Yeah, yeah, I think they did, you know, they certainly learned throughout the game or throughout the series. That four-one's obviously been more of an attacking ball, more of a danger, I think, than that short stuff. We sort of anticipate the short stuff being a lower order as well. If you're going to dish it out, you're going to cop it. So, yeah, I mean, you're allowed to improve across the series, aren't you? So, yeah, again, they did bowl better and got some rewards for that. But I think we're in a really good position.

They certainly are. Australia closing in four wickets away from winning the ashes. England, still well over 200 runs from victory. That was Mitchell Stark, speaking to Corbyn Middle. Mass and the ABC team last, but not least, Andy Zaltzman is here to look at the day statistically. Let's start with Australia Zaltz. Well, let's look at the two players they brought in for this game. Cummins and Lion Lion bowled just a couple of overs in the series in the first test, didn't play the second test, Cummins, didn't miss the first two

tests. Between them, they've taken 11 wickets for 227, Cummins 6 for 93 in the match. Five of his wickets have been top four players, including route in both innings for just eight runs in 23 balls and his domination of Joe Root and test cricket continued. Got him 13 times route averages just 22 against Australia's captain across their careers and when you consider that his overall test averages

over 50 that highlights quite how superb Cummins has been against Root over a prolonged period of time now and Lyme we talked a lot about Jacks yesterday England played line really well in his first 10 overs he went for 49 almost 5 in over

only a little under Jack's economy rate in this game. But that difference was the way England were doing that was with high-risk shots, the reverse sweeps and the sweeps whereas with Jacks, Australia is just able to wait for those short balls about one every six or seven balls, short, Lions ball, about one every 28 balls, short. And eventually that one mistake came from Brook and then Lion. So pretty much sealed the ashes, England,

looking at losing the ashes in the third test for the ninth time in their last ten tours. of Australia, which is, I think, fair to say, suboptimal. The day started with Kerry and head continuing their partnership. Heads 170 was the highest second inning score for Australia in Australia in an Ashes test since Don Bradman scored 270 and 112 in back-to-back second innings in the 1936-37 series and Alex Carey. They failed to get his second 100 of the match.

I mentioned yesterday the first keeper in Ash's history to have a century and a 50 in the game. He ends up with the highest match aggregate aggregate for any wicketkeeper in a men's Ashes test. A little curious record, 560 of Australia's runs in this game scored by left handers, which is an Australian record for

a single test. And, well, for England, less good stats, Oli Pope. He was just talking about eight Ashes test, 16 innings, still no 50s, no England player. No England top order batter has ever gone 16 innings at the start of a career against Australia

without reaching 50 at least once. Zach Crawley batted superbly today but once again out having reached 70 but failing to reach 100 his last 10 scores of 70 plus. He's now been out between 70 and 85 in nine of them and the other was his

century against Zimbabwe. So all in all not a huge amount for England to cling to despite a better performance Harry Brooke. 15 innings against Australia. 10 scores of of 30 plus, still waiting for that first 100, only two scores over 61. So a lot of unconverted starts that we've seen.

And in terms of the bowler workload mentioned on this stage yesterday, actually historically not a particularly heavy workload, 377 overs England have bowled in this series, which is the fewest they've ever bowled in the first three tests of a series in Australia. Zaltz, comprehensive as ever. Thank you very much indeed. You're listening to the TMS podcast. from BBC Radio 5 Live.

This month in football, everything is up for grabs. The Premier League battles intensify, the Champions League reaches its crucial turning point, and the World Cup draw sets the stage for the biggest tournament on earth. Football Daily from the BBC brings you sharp analysis, instant reaction, expert insight, and the stories driving the game on and off the pitch.

Your essential football. podcast delivered every day. Listen to Football Daily on Spotify, to Football Daily on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, we can get further thoughts from a real favourite here at the Adelaide Oval. Jason Gillespie played and coached South Australia. He's also played and coached in county cricket and just over a year ago was coaching Pakistan against England. And as a former Australia fast bowler I first asked him what he made of the current attack. Coming into this

test match Australia just added the best part of 900 test wickets of experience in Cummins and Nathan Lyon look it's a very good attack. Scott Boland's a good replacement for Josh Hazelwood I suppose who's

unfortunately injured for this series Mitchell Stark he's just shows that you can teach an old dog new tricks I mean the last year 18 months or so he's been working really hard on his wobble seam delivery that you know he watched a lot of Stuart Broad James Anderson spoke to them about it

and how they go about it and you know you learn from your opposition you learn from the best and he's been working hard at developing that because he feels that that wobble scene going across he brings the keeper and the slips into play and he thinks it he believes it makes his in-swinger to the right

hand more of a surprise and so he feels that it's just added another to his repertoire so you know for a player at age 30 435 to continually try striving to get better and improve I think is fantastic there'll be people listening and say I know what wobble seam is but there'll also be people listening and don't know what wobble seam is do you want to just explain yeah so so quite simply you watch when people watch the game and maybe on television or whatever the the bowler will hold the ball with the two four fingers and thumb and have the seam

straight down the wicket pointing towards the batsman with the wobble seam they'll hold the ball and mitchell stark will hold the ball with the seam sort of angled probably towards gully but the key to the wobble seam is to actually have your wrist and fingers stay right behind the ball and release the ball off your um your middle finger and if you release that at the right time it'll just it'll wobble down the wicket and down the pitch and that just creates a little bit of doubt for the batter because all you want to do is miss the middle of the bat. So if you can miss the middle of the bat, you can potentially create chances. And that's where if it just wobbles down the pitch and a batter will ask questions,

if it's around that off stump, fourth stump, he'll be worried about his off stump. And so he'll then look to maybe prod at it. And we've seen him get a couple of wickets with that very delivery. Saw James Anderson and Stuart brought to it for years and years for England. and, you know, utilising that wobble scene. It's probably a little bit more pronounced in the UK with the Duke cricket ball with a slightly more pronounced scene,

but what we are seeing is that it can be done in Australia if you practice it. How long do you have to practice it for to perfect it, do you think? Oh, look, it bowls will improve and get it right at different rates. But Mitchell Stark said he's been working on it over a period of time. And it's just about it's practice. I mean, I've always said you don't. get better by doing less.

So the more you practice it, you get better and master a skill. And yeah, he's certainly done that really effectively. Which actually could just flip us on to England's preparation for this tour. What have you made it as a coach? Because I mean, you've coached a lot of teams. Is this the

sort of preparation that England had for this tour? Not necessarily thinking about this test match because they had that break and I think most people would accept or some people would accept that actually it's okay to have a bit of a break from cricket because it's so intense. What about the actual preparation? Yeah, I mean, first of all, yeah,

I absolutely no problem with the England side having a break. I think it's all the messaging that's been coming out, the narrative. And I think where a little bit of criticism has come in, Simon, and you and I were at that PM's 11, that pink ball game, they chose not to have their batters go down there and not many of the players. I know Josh Tongue and Matthew Potts played, Jacob Bethel played it,

but they had an opportunity to have more players play that. and that's where I think the criticism came from. And, you know, the noise out of the England camp was, oh, well, the conditions are completely different. It's, yes, it's day night, but it's a lot cooler in Canberra with less bounce, and so it's not going to be the same as the Gabba. And where I think that doesn't stand up to scrutiny is because before the Perth Stadium match,

they played a two-day game at a suburban ground in Perth that was a low, slow wicket. that preparation was fine leading into a fast, bouncy Perth stadium surface. So what was different? And I think they missed a trick, to be honest, by not playing that game. Personally, with preparation, I am a bit old school, maybe I'm a has-been, but I think match practice is vital. I understand there's the, I suppose a lot of people are saying that the modern game,

there's more tournaments, there's less time and it's harder to fit practice matches in. I think if you're planning two, three years out for a tour, you make sure you get these practice games in. And I've always said if they're, rather than them being, if they're not, if they don't have first class status, then it's hard to recreate the intensity of a first class game.

What about England in general in their approach? There's a lot of discussion about Basball. He's kind of been written off now. Basball is dead and England have actually played in a very different way in this game, haven't they? Yeah, they've certainly applied themselves well. Look, the way they've gone about it, I think it starts with selection, I suppose. What England are doing is selecting on attributes as opposed to rewarding performances at the lower level. I've got no problem if you identify attributes that you think can succeed at test level and succeed on a tour.

That's fine, but not at the expense of the lower level. You know, it's almost, it looks from an outsider. It's almost as if county cricket doesn't matter. And having been involved in the county system, it does matter. And it matters to a lot of people. And it's a, you know, it seems from the outside that the ECB don't necessarily care about county cricket. But I think it's a very good tournament and particularly, obviously in Division 1, It's been some, over the years, it's been some excellent cricket played at a very high standard.

And, you know, I think, I think the ECB should celebrate what a great tournament the county championship is rather than, it just seems it's a bit unloved. And, you know, I think there's really good cricket, and you've got to find that balance between rewarding the attributes you think can succeed at the next level and rewarding performance. because players get told you keep scoring runs you take wickets you know bang the door down demand selection through performance

but it seems at the moment that you could score thousands of runs in county cricket but unless you don't fit a certain type of player that the England hierarchy you're looking for you're no chance of playing

and I'm not sure that's a message you want to send out to your first class players in your country when you were coach of Pakistan 14, 15 months ago. I don't want to actually go into the United States of the politics of Pakistan. When you looked to England there, when you were coaching against them, did you think that actually, I know they scored 800 in the first test match,

which is unbelievable, bizarre, really, occurrence. But you had a strategy, didn't you? You kind of like, in a way, sort of out fox and we said, right, the pitches, we're just going to make them spin, and they had those big blowers out, and they brought the spinners in. Did you think, actually, that's, look, this is the way to go. We've got to lure them in in a different way because they do have these vulnerabilities.

Well, England are quite one-dimensional. And that's what we talked about. We felt that if it was a benign surface, it didn't offer anything for the seamers or didn't offer anything for the spinners, that plays into England's hands. It plays into their style of play where they come out and be very aggressive.

This whole thing, and you can call it Basball, you call it whatever, I've found it fascinating watching England obviously they want to go out and be aggressive with the bat and entertain but with the ball they're the complete opposite I think they're the most negative bowling side in world cricket and negative field placings they move away from tried and tested top of off stump

fourth stump line plans and they pivot to they change plans constantly they bowl go to bouncer plans really quickly Now I don't know if that's led by the captain and coach or it's led by the bowlers but what we've seen in this test series so far is that line and length, discipline, good test bowling

can succeed and it can succeed in all conditions and I just think England are very impatient I get it, you're going to try and move the game forward and that but I remember we played test in Pakistan and South Shakil got 100 on a spinning surface there were six fielders

on the fence the whole time I remember him coming off the field and saying coach they've got all the field out what do I do I said what are you doing now he said I'm just hitting singles I said well just keep hitting singles

and there was no change of that plan because it was almost like England just assumed we would play like they play and start slogging and try and hit it over the field and I think sour to hit something something like 70 singles in his 100, which was crazy. And there was no change in that.

It was just an assumption, I'll Pakistan and just start slogging eventually and get out. Well, that was Jason Gillespie. Highlights are available to watch on the BBC Sport website and app. Alex Hartley presents the TMS Ashes debrief on the BBC Eye Player, and we're back on air from 11 p.m. for the fifth and final day here. The TMS podcast from BBC. Radio 5 Live

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