Test Match Special - The Ashes: Inquest begin for England as Australia make it 4-1

Episode Date: January 8, 2026

Australia win the 5th Test at the SCG by 5 wickets to complete their Ashes victory. We hear from England coach Brendon McCullum plus captain Ben Stokes as well as player of the match Travis Head, Player of the series Mitchell Starc and the retiring Usman Khawaja. Plus there's analysis from Simon Mann, Jonathan Agnew, Glenn McGrath, Phil Tufnell and Andy Zaltzman

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge. Perfect for the ultimate defender. The high-performance Defender Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D dynamics air suspension. Learn more at landrover.ca. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Jacks round the wicket bowls to Kerry who drives into the offside

will that be good enough this the dive the dive can't stop that and the ball rolls into the boundary significantly right in front of the balmy army the England supporters there the last nail in the coffin of this series and the two batsmen embrace for England it's all over a four one defeat so Australia have won this final test match at the SCG by five wickets they were chasing 160 they got there in 31.2 over there are a few wobbles on the way but then Kerry and green just steadied things and got Australia to I deserve four one victory they've dominated England in the series England have made too many mistakes throughout the series head out for 29 weather or for 34 lavishane run out for 37 that was 121 for five he ran himself out and just had a small hope there but

Carian Green just settled things. Smith was bowled by beauty from Jacksford 12. Coagia in his final test innings played on to Tongue for six. He got a huge standing ovation as he walked off the ground, but not quite the way he would have wanted to end, although Australia won the match. England bowed out for 342. Jacob Bethel out to start with a new ball for 154.

Pots was on 18 and tong the last man out for six. So 160 to win, and ultimately Australia getting over the last. Glenn McGraar is with me Phil Tuffnell is with me Jonathan Agnew down on the outfield and he'll be joining us shortly So what do we say at the end of this series

Tuffers? What are the key factors as we look back over this test match and the last six or seven weeks? It's difficult to round it all up really I think what it is is that you can't fluke wins in Australia or against Australia.

on these kind of pitches. You know, in England, you can sort of play this way a little bit and sort of be a bit reckless and bowl, you know, sort of way he wouldn't get nicks. And if it's your day, you can sort of like end up in a very, very strong position. Over here, you've got to really earn the right on these pitches. You can't, 30s, 40s, 50s aren't enough in Australia. You know, look at Travis Head, look at Steve Smith.

You've got to go on. Look at Jacob Bethel. You've got to go on and get Big Daddy hundreds. your bowl, you just can't run up and just hope that it's going to be on the top of off-stump, otherwise you're going to get carted everywhere so I think England weren't precise enough

I don't know why, we dropped all the catches, I mean, that's about 20 odd catches we've dropped there, unbelievable and when you have to work and grind wickets on pitches like this when catches come along, you've got to take them obviously no one means to drop them, but

we've dropped too many catches which have just always put us behind the eight ball a little bit but yeah hard conditions and we just didn't have the um patience you know the patience to stick it out and get a big score get a 500 you know keep in the heat pit in the top of osn you know and australia did and we're obviously looking from an english perspective Glenn you know looking in from an australian perspective on this england side what do you what do you see in this england side where have they gone wrong Yeah, I think, you know, they came out here with the attitude that this was their best opportunity for a long time.

They were going to come out and play their way and dominate. It's sort of when you sort of sit back and you think, well, they haven't, you can't say we're unlucky or we've been hard done by, you know, that won four of the five toss to start with, which is, you know, then you get to do what you want. And then I think strategy, they were a little bit off. It took them three test matches to realize, hang on a minute. that the way we're playing here is not suited to Australian conditions. It's not going to work for us. And then the series was already gone. So, yeah, you like to think it was a learning experience.

There's a lot said about basball. I know Brendan McCollum's not a big fan of the name, but I like the concept of players playing without fear. And it's amazing what you can achieve. But you've got to be able to adapt to the conditions. You've got to be able to absorb pressure and enjoy pressure. and there's got to be accountability to yourself, to your team and to the fans. And so I think they're halfway there.

Hopefully they'll be able to take something out of the street. You know, the way Jacob Bethel played in the little opportunity that he had, I think he's, you know, a future, you know, he's locked his name in at number three there. And then, you know, Josh Tong, we were saying before, he should have been bowling more. He should have played all the tests and probably should have opened the inings a lot more because I think he's... So there's some positives, but there's a lot of questions to be asked.

Brennan McCollum, does he continue? Does he want to continue? Ben Stokes, what's he going to do? Does he hand the captaincy over to someone like Harry Brooke? Harry Brooke, what has he learned from this? So there's a lot of questions to be asked. We'll see what the answer is, whether any of them going to be answered. I know four years is a long way off,

and probably Australia will have a completely different team, maybe in 18 months' time. So we'll wait and see. but yeah it's always it's tough coming to Australia and playing winning yeah it is yeah it is and Australia being the most successful team at home in the history of test cricket right let's get some reaction now from the England captain Ben Stokes with Jonathan Agnew Ben is walking here and he's actually walking relatively freely

I know Ben and that's that kind of summed it up really is he coming off yesterday at the end of that series how are you physically yeah obviously disappointed to come off Yeah, I've been pretty hard-fought series, put a lot of effort into a series before, obviously, had to go off. But, yeah, again, just, you know, they got, we should have got 100 more, they shouldn't have got an extra 100, and that's sort of, you know, pretty much the whole series, really. You're not the first England captain to lose here, and he won't be the last, but I wonder how you feel when you do analyse it going back after this. Yeah, well, there's obviously, there will be a lot of time,

to reflect on it and I think we're like you know we started so well in the first you know a couple of years and then now what we've you know we've done we're just sort of slowly eking downwards which is never a good place to be at and as a team and yeah look it's the time that we've got off after this is a time for reflection and time for some you know pretty honest truce because you know it needs to happen and those kind of things need to be said or else you just end up standing still and we always talk about wanting to move forward, press on as teams, press on as a team, press on as individuals and, you know, I think the series has highlighted that, you know, there is a lot of room for improvement, you know,

for each individual in this team to kick on and be a better player than they already are and then also, you know, as a team with our mentality towards, you know, how we take the game test cricket on as England and also, you know, identifying what we need to do and, you know, in big moments of the game because too many occasions this series and even before this we've done it to ourselves where we've been in a very very strong position and yeah we've let teams back into games where we're in control of it yeah i wonder how much of a warning note that defeat to india was in the last test match of the summer a bit ruined uh you really had wrapped up to win i mean was that in in hindsight now a warning bell uh well again that's

you know i say it's not just this series as moment that have happened before the series where we've done it to ourselves, done it by, you know, decisions that, you know, we've decided to take out there in the middle when, you know, we're either in a strong position or the games there for the taking for us. And it's one of those where, I think, you know, if you, I feel like we play a lot of, you know, three out of ten cricket in terms of, you know, coming off, if that makes sense. And when you play consistently at that level, it's going to be very, very hard to be, you know, winning games to cricket. I think we just need to be a lot better at playing the percentages in our favour. Identifying those moments where teams now target us when we are looking like we're in cruise mode and controlling the game

and taking the responsibility on us to play when you're out there in the middle of, you know, just keep going and not giving the opposition a sift because I feel like we've done that too often. Yeah, and is that something that's been put on the players, if you like, Have the players been made to feel? I think you're Jamie Smith dismissal here perhaps as being an example of the players feeling under pressure to have to push a game

and perhaps it's not the right time to do so. Again, it's about identifying those moments and, you know, actually looking where the game is at, why is this person come on to bowl, why are they bowling at these tactics to us when you're working as a partnership out there? Because I look at a few moments where we've had Australia up,

against the wall with the bat and, you know, but they've looked desperate to take a wicket and we've sort of fallen to the trap on too many occasions. And yeah, it's about being smarter, being clever, identifying those moments and actually understanding as to why oppositions are doing this to us. So, you know, yeah.

Do you keep going back to Perth? 100 for one at lunch on that second day? Well, again, as I've just said, it's not just in the series, it's the moments of the games where we just need to Yeah, like recalibrate ourselves out there in the middle and go, what is, why is the opposition doing this? I'm allowed one more because Danny's winding up as you're expensive too. You're keen to carry on though Ben.

You want to put this right? You want to identify the reasons for that and put it straight? Absolutely. You know, I've been in this role for, yeah, four years now and it's been a very consistent dressing room in terms of the players in there. And, you know, I felt like I got a group of men who, you know, I've been in this role. who were able to find levels of their ability that they might not have been able to unlock, whereas now it's about, yeah, recalibrating that

and, you know, putting a bit more pressure on everyone's shoulders and making sure, you know, batting's about scoring runs, bowling's about taking wickets, and playing sports is about winning. Waits off your shoulders for a while. Thanks to talk to, Ben, take the time. Thank you.

Cheers. Right, there we are. We're being wound up by left-run centre there. So I'd have liked another couple minutes with the England captain, but yeah, a lot going on and obviously some live television that he has to go and do as well. So there you go. I thought that was a much more honest assessment of where England had been not just in this series, Simon, but going back to identifying points. I mentioned the Oval Test against India as being won any, I'm pretty sure he said there were moments before that. So, you know, kind of the warning signs have been there and people have

talked about them, but you wonder if they really were addressed at the time or dealt with properly at the time. I think Stokes is sort of suggesting that perhaps they weren't. Yeah, I mean, just picking some of the main bits out there, you're actually engulfed by spectators at the moment. They've all come

onto the ground and they've been cordoned off to allow home supporters to enjoy Australia's celebration. But yeah, the things I picked out there, we've played three out of ten cricket. We've played three out of ten cricket. which I haven't heard before from the England camp. It's time for some honest truth, a lot of room for improvement.

I mean, I think, you know, it's obvious to say that when you're 4-1 down in the series. But, I mean, generally speaking, we haven't heard that sort of talk, a bit earlier in the series, but generally speaking, we haven't heard that from Ben Stokes in the last two or three years. There's a lot of talk about positivity and that sort of thing, taking the game forward. But actually there, it's like, actually, no, look, this has been pretty poor. We've got to improve.

it's all going to disintegrate completely. I just feel they're listening about that. You know, it's about, you know, and we've been saying it all day. All serious, sorry, you know what I mean, about not being able to step up, you know, when we've had the opposition on the ropes and everything like that.

I think England have become a little bit of a one-trick pony, you know. You know, and it's not them necessarily being able to step up. I think that just now, the opposition now, know how to, you know, step up it themselves, whether it's been bowling wide and they'll come to us, you know, hanging back and just waiting.

You know, instead of then trying to force the game, they've had to sort of think to themselves, well, you know, I'd like to play poker against this England side, if you know what I'm trying to say. Totally. You know, because they play what they play in a fashion that you can just sort of like maneuver around now. When it first started happening, you know,

people were a little bit taken aback about it, like, oh, cricky, what do we do now? What do we do now? let's, you know, how do we counter-attack it, but now good sides, good captains around the world have sort of, like, seen that and said that they're not going to adapt, they're just going to keep going. They're just going to keep going. So why don't we just sort of like, just chill out a little bit and let them come back to us instead of, and I sort of disagree with Ben there a little bit saying that they haven't stepped up to the big moments. It's just that they've been outmaneuvered at those big moments. Glenn?

Yeah, listening to Ben. Stokes there, you know, he said a lot of things. I guess he was pretty honest. The thing I like the most was he said it's time for the players to take more responsibility, more pressure to absorb more pressure. And that all I'd heard from, you know, when Brennan McCullen first came in and was about releasing the pressure. There's no pressure.

We want our players to play without pressure, which, you know, your good players go out there and play, your great players absorb the pressure and they enjoy the pressure. that's when they lift. So, yeah, you know, I think it's not about getting rid of pressure. It's about enjoying pressure, handling it. And, you know, having the belief that you're good enough to play in these situations and you can compete at this time. And, oh, I say accountability. You know, you've got to be accountable to yourself, to your teammates, to your country. You know, you come off and you analyze your own performance and you think, okay, what could I have done better today to have helped my team? What did I learn from today?

If they're asking those questions of each other and as a team every day, they can't help but get better. If you come in the room and go, oh, bad luck today, you know, you got caught on the fence slogging again. Oh, tomorrow you might hit that one a bit better. That's not learning. So those things and hearing, it's time for the players to take more pressure. I don't mind that. One thing I think is fascinating, though, is that these sort of mistakes that England have made in this series, they have actually been making for a couple of years.

Actually, Ben Stokes referred to it, didn't he? You know, we've been making these mistakes for a couple of years. He said it started off very well for a couple of years. Yeah. And then it's been happening a few times. So what I find intriguing is why didn't they think come to Australia that actually we need to adjust and play in a slightly different way and not make these glaring errors that they've made?

And there have been quite a few. I mean, especially in the way they've approached their batting. You know, they've, as a bowling side, you feel with England, especially in this series, it's been too easy to take wickets. they've been gifting wickets absolutely gifted and australia were concerned when we first landed in you know they were thinking to themselves crying we've got a few injuries we've got a few little sort of issues with ourselves here if this england team with the talent and with that positivity and that aggression which is great can then temper it a little bit we're going to be

in for a real fight here but you're right we just gifted it we we we just gifted it we we we we just sort of said, hold on a minute, we've won one. You've got to win two sessions, three sessions a day. We won one session and then put the opposition under pressure, and then the next session just handed it all back straight away. And that's not how you go about winning test match cricket. The other thing I want to know is that, you know, we've all been wringing our hands and what have you,

a little bit about dismissals and the way we've bowled. What I want to know, I've heard like the lights of Ponting and all these sort of grates and what have you going, how do they walk back into that dressing room? You know, some of the shots that they've played. I mean, in my day as well, and Glenn's Day, you know, you'd have to go round the back and sit there on the naughty chair. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

And the England coach, Brendan McCullum, has been speaking with Jonathan. Well, what's your take on that at the end of the series? Well, I think firstly focusing on this game, I thought it was a brilliant cricket wicket. excellent game. There was a lot in it for everyone. There's a bit of scene movement early and then it was pretty good for batting for the most part but and then spin played a part towards him. I thought it was a brilliant test wicket. I thought the game itself is amazing. It was well supported right throughout and we weren't too far away, you know. Australia was just a little

bit too good in the end for us but I think overall we've had our opportunities in this series there's no doubt and we've got a few things wrong and we missed some of those those key moments which can turn a series and credit to Australia I think right throughout they've been relentless the way they've operated they've out batted us

out bowled us and outfielded us so ultimately they deserve to win and we've got some lessons to learn what do you think I mean Ben has just talked quite honestly so that at times he felt that England had played in three out of ten cricket suggesting that perhaps there were

mistakes made and misjudgments made by the players do you think that's an accurate reflection Look, we know we haven't been at our best when we first put our hands up when it comes to that. I think, you know, when you're in a contest against another team and they step up in those big moments and we aren't quite able to seize them, you know, the scoreline obviously reflects that. From our point of view, you know, we came here with high hopes and high ambitions and we haven't been able to walk away with what we wanted to when we arrived here. But, you know, there's some lessons there and as long as you learn those lessons and you're able to, I guess, improve on them. then you give yourself a chance of being a better team moving forward.

But, you know, we're bitterly disappointed. We want to thank all the people that have supported us, all the English that have travelled so far to come here and support us right throughout the tour and to all the fans watching back home as well. It's been a great series to be involved, and albeit our cricket hasn't necessarily been up to it, but we're appreciative of all the support we've had.

Yeah. Look, there's discussions as it always are at the end of an Ashes series when England losing Australia about jobs and positions and so on, How do you feel at the moment about your position, Brendan? Are you keen to carry on as this job? Yeah, look, I'm obviously disappointed with the outcome of the series. As coach, you've got to put your hand up and say, what could you have done better?

What could you have got better to ensure you got the right result? But that's things we've got to look at over the next little while. I'd love to carry on because I feel like we've got some steps to take and we've got some things that we can improve on. that we can improve on, some areas which even if we had to won the series 5-0, you'd still look at an evolution of what you need to do and some areas which would be highlighted

that you need to improve on. And as a coach, that's what you try and do. Ultimately, it's not up to you. But, you know, from my point of view, I feel like we've got the makings of a good cricket team. We haven't lived up to that down here, but we've got the makings of good cricket team and I think there's some good years in front of English cricket.

It'd be nice to be involved. You are very much your own man. You play cricket your own way. and you kind of coach it in the same sort of a way are you someone who is I don't know likely to change course or be told to work in a certain way

would that work for you or not look I'm all for progress and evolution in all sports whether you're involved in them or not and from my point of view I have firm beliefs in what works in some areas where you want to keep improving in some areas where you think that you can

evolve so I'm not I'm not against assistance, but I also have a firm belief in how to do, or how to be able to get the best out in these players. And from my point of view, I'll look at it individually and say, right, what could I have done better and what can I, what can I improve on? Am I for being told what to do? Of course I'm not. But at the same time, I'm not pick-headed to think that there's not some areas that

we can improve on. And once we digest what's unfolded over the last two months and start to plot and plan a way forward, if you're the man in the chair to do so, then you do so with a similar conviction in your methods, albeit with a couple of tweaks. Yeah, and do you think your way is the right way? You still remain convinced of that?

Look, when I took the job on, I remember the situation English cricket was in, and I felt it was a great opportunity to be able to use the resource that sits within English cricket, the talent that sits within English cricket and also the support base in the history which sits within English cricket and see an opportunity particularly for the test side

to ensure that whilst these challenges which are hitting the game all around the world with franchise cricket etc that you're still able to try and get the best players that possibly can get them excited to come on tour and look forward to the challenge and to work with guys to get the best results and I think over last three and a half years

with Stokes and myself I think our records it is what it is. certainly improved from what it was whether it's at the levels that we all want probably not but it doesn't mean you can't get there. Yeah, the World Cup coming up. We've got the ashes in

18 months again dare I mention that you're still hungry to do that? Yeah of course I am again I think we've got some players some of them at the very start of their journey and with more game time more exposure into them we'll see the likes of Jacob Bethel

and Josh Tang those sorts of guys will continue to emerge and you become a a more hardened, more experienced side to be able to handle some of the more delicate moments of series. And you seize those and you stand here on the other side of the ledger. But that's the exciting aspect of it. But again, those decisions aren't up to me, I guess. I thought Bethel's hitting was extraordinary, by the way. I mean, that could have been played by someone who played 50 tests.

Yeah, it's extraordinary. He's a proper talent, right? And I know that we asked a lot of him so far over the last 18 months, batting a three in New Zealand in the circumstance where he never batted there and obviously he's a merchant's in the White Bull side to the point where he was given the captaincy for a tour to Ireland as well

and then obviously now getting the opportunity to bat three he's got a real level head on his shoulders he's clearly got an impressive game and he's got a wonderful future and it's nice to see him get the rewards that he got in this test match and it gives guys a lot of confidence what can be achieved if you just continue

to believe in what you're born with and can you continue to believe in what you're capable of children. Just the last one, there's a lot going on, Brandon. If it comes down to a point where you kind of do have to give a commitment to change your approach and change what you believe in, would you do that or would you stick to what you believe in? I think you know the answer to that. I think, you know, for me it's, you've got to have conviction in your methods. methods. It doesn't mean you're not against evolution and progress, but you've got to have

conviction of what you believe in. It's about nipping and tucking to try and get a better version of your style and your belief. So, you know, we'll see what happens, but I firmly believe in how we go about trying to build this team and progress on what we've done. Whether you get the opportunity is out of your hands. Thank you, Brandon. Thanks, thanks for coming for too. There we go. That's Brendan McCullum, talking to Jonathan Agnew. Jonathan's alongside me. Now, let's try to pick the bones out of that. So he wants to continue, but not that keen necessarily on fundamentally changing the way he does things.

I thought it was very interesting there because, yeah, I mean, there are moments in there where it sounds as if he is saying, yeah, we can do things better, lessons learned, the usual sort of stuff that you hear. But then the fatal question at the end, really, if you were told to change, would you? And he said, I think you'd know the answer to that, which is sort of what we've been talking about. all the way through, don't we? I mean, he is a firmly man of his convictions, absolutely. Brendan McCollum is Brendan McCullum. It's the way he play cricket, the way he coaches cricket, is the way he lives his life. He is just that sort of person.

He doesn't strike me as being the sort of person who would agree to change or to change too much. I mean, he might, because I think he is obviously intelligent and grown up enough to know that perhaps things have not gone right here, therefore that things do have to

the change to an extent. But I think the core beliefs that he has, which is empowering the players, making them believe in themselves, enjoying their cricket, seizing initiative. These are sort of the core elements of what he believes in, isn't it?

I'd be surprised if he gives you much on that, but then those convictions are probably right. That's for how you do play sport. It's just a case of whether the players that you have can all do that together at the same rate and in the same way that I think I mean I think probably

the main problem that I would have with the way things have been done is that there's no middle ground and it's just completely all in or all out and that's it and there's no flexibility and either you agree this either you play like this either you do that I mean I mentioned to Ben Stokes I think you heard it about Jamie Smith's dismissal and whether that

that kind of illustrated the way and he I thought actually rather blamed Smith for that as being a poor choice which it obviously was but was that poor choice driven by the team approach and the messaging that they're getting so I'll be very interested to see what McCullen does

I don't think he is going to sit there like a naughty boy in the headmaster's office and be told you did this wrong, did that wrong you will change this, you will change it and if you don't change it you're out of a job I think he'll walk out of the door but if it's done in a way in which he can still keep his core beliefs

in what he believes in and I mentioned this now than maybe there is a way forward for him in a different way. I think, I mean, it has to change. I mean, we're not trying to cling to Bernie McCullin here. What needs to change? Well, I think that's a total lack of flexibility. And no discipline.

Discipline on the field. Discipline off the field. And that has to be addressed. That has to be addressed. You know, there are issues that you hear about and you read about and you see for yourself off the field and there's a lack of discipline on the field. Let's be honest.

If you compare it to Australia You've got the most disciplined cricket team in the world Playing against probably the most ill-disciplined cricket team in the world And the difference is there for anybody to see And so that is a big one for me And if you're not disciplined off the field You're not going to be disciplined on the field And I remember that being rammed home to me

When I was a young professional Even by dear old Chris Bowleson Dress Smart, play smart, you know But it's kind of true You know, you just rock up you know, like whatever. And then you're not going to be tuned into what you're doing. And I'm not necessarily saying that's the way to go,

that they all talk, you know, dress smart, play smart and so on. But just, you know, I go back to Nusa. I go back to the stories that you hear. Some of which may be true, some of which may not be true. But just that general vibe around this current England team in that, you know, on and off the field, there is a lack of discipline. Too about discipline on the field.

I mean, to me, it's stunningly obvious. You just have to look at the way Australia outplayed England, outmaneuvered them in this series, and then you look at the way Joe Root has played in the series, those 200, you look at the way Jacob Bethel has played in the series, and then you look at Will Jackson's shot, you look at Jamie Smith's

shot, for example, you look at Harry Brooks shot. It's not difficult to work out, is it? That's what really worries me. Why are they not, those ones you mention, why are they not emulating the obvious examples that are there? is it because they simply haven't got the Nouse and they haven't got the brains to do it possible

is it that they feel that actually the messages that we've got to go hard we've got to do it better than that I'm a bit confused and oh crick oh wow I've I've smashed minus Labashane to deep extra cover wow how did that happen because my brain's all in a complete fog

you know that I think is where we talk about treating individuals in different ways you know Ollie Pope Olly Pope is a good player that is a good batsman what's happened what has happened to Olly Pope Harry Brooke

wonderful player gone nowhere in fact all he's done actually is enforce the fact that he gets in and gives his wicked away and he appears to have learned absolutely nothing from this tour whatsoever

he's our World Cup captain you know really is that the right man for that job you can go down I say Jamie Smith he looks a bit of a shadow I mean I think probably going into the build

up to next summer's test series who's going to keep wicket for England? I can see all the old arguments coming back, the Benfokes argument coming back again. And that might be, for example, where, if McCollum is retained, he has to make his first concession. Maybe it is to go back

to having Benfokes' wicket-keeping. Those are the sort of decisions that would have to be made. But I think somebody really has got to work out why this approach has not worked particularly for those two leading batsmen in the team, Olly Pope and Harry Brooke. this system has not worked

for them might be for entirely different reasons one thing that Brendan McCollum has done as coach is kind of stripped back the back room staff radically reduced the numbers no fielding coach here and England have dropped

it must be around about 20 catches in the series there are a few more in this game some half chances difficult half chances ones that we saw Australia take in the series crucial moments so are we talking about change there

as well you definitely need a fielding coach you know fielding coach is his job he's a specialist and he has specialist routines that he does and he employs and he puts the players through to improve their fielding and they're catching you see it every morning

you see the other teams doing it that's not his job he's not a fielding coach he nicks the slip catches in the mornings but he's not the man doing the drills that are so important and not just again not just for catching and some people but you know

throwing at a stump those sort of moments in a game that are brought about through practice and through hard work and the fact that they've dropped all these catches when there is no fielding coach here is a pretty obvious thing I mean Marcus Triscothic is a batting coach

Jeton Patel is a bowling coach David Saker is a bowling coach they're not fielding coaches they're not you know they might have an idea of how to whack some catches up and you shout a name out and someone catches it but not the sort of strict disciplined routines

that you see fielding teams go through. So I cannot understand. I don't know who they thought would run the fielding. If you look at the personnel here, who do they think was going to take charge of the fielding? Answer is probably nobody. There will be people listening to this and say, look, it's so obvious. BASBall is over and Brendan McCullum has failed. He said that this is the series of our lives. Everything points to this series and England have been hammered for one. They've made

so many mistakes, pre-series, and join the series. It's obvious. It's so obvious that he has to go as coach and England need a new approach. What would you say to them? I would say it's probably right. I mean, well, there's two things. They need a new approach. Yes. Can a coach who I think, you know, and we

mustn't forget what they did do three and a half years ago and they did actually sort out English cricket, you know, to a large extent. They really did. They picked up a broken team and they made them enjoy cricket again and win games again and be entertained. What they didn't do was to stop at that point and actually

get down to, having achieved what they had to do in that short term, which was getting those players back again, getting their minds back again, there are some good players here. That's when the point should have stopped and there should have been a much more disciplined attitude brought in on and off the field

at that point. And that's where they've gone wrong. So the approach has to change, yes. Can this coach change the approach? That's up to him. And if he feels he can do it and really believe in it, Personally, I'll keep him

because there are some talented players here and I watch him work with them and I think he and Stokes actually are a good combination. I think what they need is something. Do you think they're still as aligned as they were? It's interesting actually listening to Ben Stokes because his answers were a bit different

from Brendan McCullum. He said we know we played three out of ten cricket. There's a lot of room for improvement on too many occasions. You know, we've made mistakes. I mentioned the Oval and he actually went back to before the Oval. Yeah.

So absolutely. Stokes is, he's wearing it all more personally than the coach. But I do think that they're still together, that they do work as a partnership, but the approach does have to change. And that's the approach of both of them, actually, because Stokes has been as brought into this, you know, I remember interviewing him, I think it was Brisbane. And we talked again about, you know, the way it was replayed and so on.

And the workloads and stuff and the buildup. and the matches, preparation matches. And he did say, yeah, but that's how it used to be done, Jonathan, he said. And I'm thinking to myself, well, no, no, this is how it should be done. So, you know, whether Ben meant it, and actually, I think he pulled a lot back tonight this afternoon, much more reflective, much more honest, actually, in the terms of where things have gone wrong. There needs to be, I think, more communication, there would be more ability for players to be able to,

question rather than just be told. Because that way, if you do question, you question things, it actually makes you a more mature person and a more mature player. It's interesting when we have recently retired England cricketers who work with us and we come away going through airports or stuff, they've got no idea about boarding passes or passports or security checks. It's all done for them. They go, you know, and that's what it's like being an England cricketer

if you don't give them responsibility. So more responsible on the players but to be themselves and not to be told what to do and conform that for me definitely but whether or not McCullum is able to do that you heard in there

you know me or whatever he said you know what I'm like or whatever he said I think that was a very telling statement he would I think he would rather walk away than be seen to be a naughty boy having to do things a different way because he's told to by a bloke in a suit.

How important is the T20 World Cup for Brendan McCallum? Well, I think you can, perhaps you try and answer that as well, because two entirely different setups, two entirely different teams. T20 World Cups can be a bit of a lottery. You know, they are T20 games. People would want England to do well. The odds are they won't. So I think if you talk about comparing the two,

the biggest disappointment would be this one, because people actually really expect England to do well. I don't think that has a level of expectation in a C-20 tournament on the subcontinent. If we do semi-finals, I think people are going to be realistic, except that would be a pretty good result in that. But here people expected England to compete properly, and that's the big disappointment. Okay, so we look to the captain, Ben Stokes says,

I want to continue, yeah. He definitely wants to continue, yeah. Brendan McComb says, I want to continue, but we'll see how that looks. And then there's Rob Key, the managing director, England cricket who sits above those two in a way that he decides the planning I suppose and the planning he really admitted it himself didn't he

in the series it's not been great what about his position? I think he again has to be told to change if he wants to continue his job he has to be much more held to account and also he needs to make sure that those who are employing these things who come to him with these structures

for the tours are also held to account I can't imagine how he thought that this series is going to work with the amount of preparation and yet he didn't stand up and say to Brendan McCullum or to Ben Stokes. I'm sorry, come on, this is not going to work. I'm sorry, I'm not signing us off. This is not going to win the ashes. You need a stronger person there, someone who I think is going to stand up to, particularly to Brendan McCullum, who was a strong character and very much his own person.

if he wants to carry on and as we talk about change the approach it's up to that person that Rob Key position to make sure that he does and to make sure that things are done differently and that's that responsibility personally I think they've got three people of the same type and that's what worries me

I don't know if Rob Key is of a type of person to actually stand up and say because he appointed Brendan McCullougham in the first place that's be honest and Ben Stokes but he's not I don't think the sort of person who's going to stand up and say to Brendan McCollum this is wrong let's re-check this this is not the way it's going to do there are others who I think probably would do that

so I don't know that that's that's the position if if McCollum is willing to to change and to accept that area of this tour were actually largely to blame for what has gone wrong and to change his approach which I think a lot of that is quite unlikely actually then the person above him has to make sure that he carries that through and I don't know if Key's the right man to do that. Okay so that's Director of Cricket, Captain and Coach just finally players. So you talked about Jamie Smith you know

that's the big question. His position's going to come into the spotlight as the year goes on and as England move towards their next test match. What about some of the other players? I'm thinking of Zach Crawley so Zach Crawley came out here, the Australians like him, play one or two nice innings but he averages...

26 or something. Yeah, average 28 in the series and that's kind of like just a little bit below what he which is in test cricket over the course of, you know, a 60-odd test match career. Is he the most vulnerable in that batting line up? I mean, Ben Duckett hasn't done a great series as well. On off the field. You know, he again, unfortunately for him,

but he was the one who was publicly picked out, wasn't he, for Nusa? And what was going on there? I'm not saying the whole team was involved in that, but clearly, I don't think he was by himself that night. So, you know, that should not have happened. I think Crawley is vulnerable but Corley has been vulnerable for a long time isn't he? You know

if you look at England's run-in to the next ashes it's not actually very it's not terribly challenging you've got to South Africa that's probably the big that's probably the big series isn't it you know that's to go to South Africa next winter

you probably need to have your ashes squad in place you'd have in your mind who it's going to be which makes next summer New Zealand and Pakistan a summer for you know they're middling teams aren't they a summer for people to nail down their places

and yeah I mean I think Crawley is is vulnerable I mean the Crawley Duckett opening partnership is actually rather good very tall very short left hand right hand play the same sort of way there are there others who I think I think Smith is the most is the most vulnerable

of them all and it's funny isn't it after a four one people are going to say oh come on he should be out he should be out he should be out he should be out you've got to find better you've got to find better you've got to find better I would like to see part of the change I'd like to see more of England's players playing county cricket especially the younger ones I don't see Bethel playing more

more county cricket and tongue I think he had a good season last season for Nottinghamshire he's come on bowl well for England I mean you know perhaps a two and two go together maybe you know you you come into a series when your confidence is high you're taking wickets in the championship and all that

you know playing playing on the field matters way more and that's again something a little sheet of stuff that I think McCullum has to accept they must be playing more games of cricket and he'll say you can't do that

they're doing this, they're doing that you look at ahead to whatever injuries and burnouts are part of sport you can't who thought that Ben Stokes might come off there the groin strain you can't plan ahead really for injury you can help players but if somebody gets injured

I'm afraid that's sport and so to say that people need a week off or it was in Nusa because look at the schedule coming up, they've got this, they've got that, they've got that way. Well, yeah, if you don't want to do it, don't do it. It's for the now. Professional sport

is for now and you prepare for now. You can't be looking too far ahead and I know that as an old fast bowler. You go out there and you bowl and you don't know how long you're going to be able to carry on for until you get your next hamstring niggle or whatever it may be. But that's part of the game. That's part of the game. and you need to be out there playing games of cricket to get better,

to get better in terms of skills and also particularly psychologically and your mentality. You get that right through playing games of cricket and game situations and not in the nets. Jonathan, thank you. Zoltz is with us. The final word on the overall stats of the series, what's caught your eyes, Zoltz? Well, yeah, it's been a very curious series statistically in which we've had some, you know, Extreme low scores, had those two two-day tests. The first time there's been two-two-day tests in a series since the 1890s.

Australia, two 500 plus first innings, two sub-200 first innings, which is unique in test history in a single series. Look at the overall runs per wicket, 33.5 for Australia batting, 26.7 for England batting. Actually, of the nine Ashes series, England's lost in Australia since 1990, That was the lowest margin of thrashing in terms of runs per wicket. But I'm not sure it tells the whole story of the series. Look at runs per over.

Australia, 4.25 in this series, their fastest scoring Ashes series. England 3.89. It's the first Basball series in which England have been outscored in terms of runs per over. And you compare it with 2023. England scored at 4.74, Australia at 3.35. So a huge turnaround from that series in Australia's scoring at the sort of rate that we've seen from England since Stokes and McCollum took over.

If we break, Stokes mentioned the first couple of years, particularly that first of 18 months up to the end of the 2023 asses when they basically played a good series, could have won it, pushed Australia close and scored very fast against Cummins, Hazelwood and Boland in particular in a way that no other team has done before or since. At the end of that series, England had won 13 and lost four out of the 18 tests since Stokes and McCullum took over. They'd scored at 4.8 and over and conceded at 3.3 per over.

Since then, 28 tests, 13 wins, 14 defeats. They've scored at 4.3 and conceded at 3.7. So, not only they scoring slower, as you would expect, if they're losing more games, I guess there's slightly more defensive play. But they've been less able to control the scoring rate of the opposition. and part of that is the retirement abroad at the end of 20203 Jimmy Anderson at the start of the 2024 summer

two bowlers who gave them in that first year and a half a lot of control with the ball Olly Robinson bowled quite a bit in that period as well a control bowler essentially so that's I think restricted England the different ways that they can bowl in the field looking at this series specifically sort of individual let's start with Josh Tongue

the great success with the ball 18 wickets at 20, with a strike grade of a wicket every 32 balls. That's the best average by an England bowler in Australia with 15 or more wickets in a series since the 1978-79 Ashes, so a great personal success for him, but only paid three tests, now played nine tests in total, taken 49 wickets, which is sixth on the all-time list. Most wickets by an England player in his first nine tests and the second most, joint second most in the last hundred years,

which does slightly raise the question after he took 19 wickets in three matches on flat pitches in the summer why he didn't start the series. Bryden cast 22 wickets as the second most by an England bowler in an Ashes series in Australia since the 1970s but at an average of 30 which in quite a low scoring series

broadly a relatively high average strike rate wicket every 38 balls but the economy rate was the real problem 4.8 per over so that strike rate a wicket, it would be 38 balls. Out of the 32 England bowlers who've taken 20 or more wickets in a series in Australia, his strike rate is the second best

behind Wilfrid Rhodes in the series in the first decade of the 20th century, but his economy rate by a massive distance, the worst, only one of the other 32 had conceded at more than 3.6 and over. So that sort of exemplified England's series with the ball, Will Jax also went at almost 5 and over.

So the two of the most expensive series by England bowlers who bowled 60 or more overs in a series against anyone. Just finally, on Australia, what's the tale of the tape there in terms of most runs and most wickets? Well, they've had a few individuals that have done remarkable things. Travis Head, particularly over 600 runs, 629 in the series, the joint most, so the ninth most for Australia in an Ashes series. And the fourth most for Australia in an Ashes series since 1948, over 600 as open. double figures in all ten innings, which the first player to do that in an Ashes series

this millennium, obviously it's not always that players get to play all ten innings, but it still shows something about the consistency that he had. Alex Carey, over 300 runs, average 46, 28 dismissals, the joint second most by a wicketkeeper in any test series. Steve Smith, a useful series with about just the 100 in this match. But 14 catches in four tests. he's now taken 58 catches in his last 23 Ashes test

which would be reasonably good if you're a wicketkeeper and he's a slip fielder and that's you know we talk about the differences between the sides those fielding sets Labashane had 10 catches in the series as well Mitchell Starks 31 wickets averaged just under 20 and particularly effective at the start of the series against England's top 7 23 wickets at 21 which over the course of the certainly the first part of the

series was one of the decisive factors but good support from Nisa and Boland 15 and 20 wickets for those two respectively Nisa average just under 20 Boland average just under 25 he won at 3.1 2 per over since the start of Basball only Jasbitt Bumra amongst

Seemers has gone under 3.4 and over against England so we saw them really attack Boland in 2023 and the first innings in Perth effectively but after that he got a control kind of restricted England throughout so Stark had that excellent level of support from those two very experienced bowlers. They've taken more wickets by bowlers age 35 or more than any team in test history.

And just finally, as a stat I've been looking at quite a lot in the last couple of weeks, is the number of starts England have had. So we look at England's series. Joe Root had these two fine hundreds, but he had seven failures, seven scores below 20. Ben Stokes had seven scores below, seven or eight scores below 20. Harry Brooke had seven innings of 30 or more, but only one score over 52. Ben Duckett had six scores over 20, but no 50s.

Lots of unconverted starts. In terms of reaching 25, England did so in a higher proportion of their innings than Australia, but conversions of 25 to 50s. England only had 1150 plus scores out of 37, 25 plus scores. And that conversion rate, just under 30% quarter centuries to half centuries, which is a bit of a niche stat, but I think does tell a lot about the story of this series, the third worst ever by a team in an Ashes series. Australia, by comparison, converted 15 out of 28, so just over half,

which was above average, but not exceptional. But England's was a real problem for them throughout this series. Results, exhaustive as ever. Thank you very much. Exhaustive or exhausting. Both. Thank you. No, exhaustive.

This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Right. an emotional day for Usman Kowager, his final test match. He's with Mark Howard. Joined by the man of the hour, Usman Kowager. Congratulations. 88, wonderful test matches for your country. You finish in front of your home crowd with an Asher's series win. Congratulations to you and your family. Thank you. It means a lot. Sorry, so much, so much has gone into it, so long. It's funny. The game of cricket is so great. And I said to race this morning, she's like, just enjoyed us. It's like, to be honest, the only thing I want is a win,

finish off the ashes of the win. I'd love nothing more. And as much as I wanted to go out there and score runs and hit the wing runs, I'm just so grateful for one last final win and to celebrate with my teammates. What was the emotions arriving at the ground today, knowing it would be the last time you get to wear that magnificent battered green hat? Very tough. I'm going to be honest, it's very tough.

This whole, I was trying to act cool. But the whole test match, I found it really hard to control my emotions. And, I mean, I think I prided myself and being able to, control my emotions, my whole career. I haven't given away too much of the opposition or to anyone. I found it really hard to concentrate a lot, even in the first innings. I found it hard to get into rhythm. And even today, it was, you know, my whole career, particularly last end of the career, has been built on process, process, process. It's just so hard to go out there and concentrate. But look, I'm glad we've got the win, got over the line. And it's something I'll cherish

for the rest of my life, being up and finish here at the SCG. Everyone's been so great. I'm so grateful to have the career I've had and I can just finally just relax, not worrying about get an hour in morning. As you came off the ground, once you'd been dismissed, you stopped here right in front of your sign, you bent down on the SCG turf, the crowd, what are moments like that like, was he? I've said it so many times this week.

It's full gratitude. I think a lot of times in life we worry about what we want. We always want more. It's all about what else can we have, what else can we want? My whole week is all being about just be grateful. Do I get two ducks or like a 200, just be grateful for what you've been given and that, you know, coming back here

and obviously just prostrating here and just, you know, the Hallow Turf at SCG towards MacCard, just was a thank one final thank you from me for, like, thank you for everything I've been given. 88 test matches, got to score, so many runs, been around the world, you know, just thank you for everything

and I wanted to end on that note. I'm not sure if you would have seen the vision. There was, obviously, you're a great family man, your wife was up there, Rachel was wiping away a tear, she's been with you, your mum and dad have been with, with you to be surrounded by family.

You couldn't ask for much more, I wouldn't I thought. I'm very lucky. Some people have lost family. I'm still lucky. My parents are still around. They've got to experience it. Not everyone's that lucky. My family, my wife, in terms of my kids and another one on the way.

I've always had a perspective on life. I love the game of cricket, but that life outside of cricket's been more important, if anything, than the game itself in a lot of respects. But I'm glad we can enjoy this one final journey, and hopefully, you know, I've got the second half of my life to live with them now. It's funny. My daughter, even today, she was like, Daddy, she's your last day. I was like, yes, last day, honey.

She was like, yeah, he gave me a hug. I was like, why are you so happy? And she goes, you get to spend more time with us now. She actually said that. So I'm really excited. I gave her a big hug. I'm like, yes, honey, I do. It got quite tight there at the end.

Any nervous moments? What was the scene like in the dressing room? Definitely got a bit too tight. Five down. You know, you're only a couple of wickets away. If you never count your chickens in cricket, Howie, you know this. You never get too far ahead of yourself. And we're like, even I was like, oh, come on, let's just, we've got a little partnership.

There's a few dicey runs going on there at the end, a little bit of pressure. But definitely on a wearing wicket. It was turning, going up and down. We've got the job done in the end, though. Last question for you. I think it's going around the SCG now. So an opportunity to say something, not only to the people here, the people of Australia, the people of Pakistan and all cricket fans that have supported you over this amazing 88 test journey, mate.

I just want to say thank you very much. Without all the fans and the people watching, well, I wouldn't have this career. I wouldn't have the ability to play cricket to make it my living. I love the game. To all the volunteers in the past, thank you very much. Everyone who's been involved in this, keep supporting the beautiful game of test cricket. It is by far my favourite version of the game.

And hopefully I'll see you out here soon next time maybe in a suit like Howie. Congratulations on the way you represented yourself, your family and your country, mate. Usman Coagher, ladies and general, what a star. There we go. Usman Coager talking to Mark Howard. Glenn, what's that like for a player? That final moments as an Australian test cricket

and that's it. You've got to live the rest of your life. Something completely different. Yeah, no, it's funny listening to Usman there saying how he was nervous, he was realizing and this is my last test and thinking about it. I think back 19 years ago when I hung the boots up here alongside

Shane Warren and Justin Langer I said I'd retire at the end of the World Cup, which was still a few months away. But final test match here, I don't know, it didn't hit me. I didn't even consider, oh, this is my last test here. I did an interview on that last day, and they said, if you could have one thing, what would it be?

I said, if I could have a wicket on my last ball and test cricket, I'd be pretty happy. And I don't know, I was just focused on that, went to the World Cup, and that, you know, Australia went through undefeated. You know, somehow I got play of the tournament. My attitude was different. I was working with the younger guys more.

and to be honest I couldn't wait I thought this series is dragging on this World Cup just never seems to end and I don't know if that was the attitude I'm done I've had my time I've loved every minute and it's time to move on but no I never sat there and thought this is it this is the last game

it's all over how amazing I just I guess I try to live in the moment and just living in the moment enjoying it that was life for us you know we're cricketers people go oh must be a man Well, this is our life. You know, this is what we do.

We're good at what we do. You're good at what you do. They're good at what they do. So I think that's why I've always approached it. But it is, you know, 19 years on was my final test match here. So many incredible memories. And that's what I, I guess, remember more than anything. Was that just briefly, was that just a bit of relief at the end as well when it was finally the end for a player?

You don't, what did he say? I don't have to get out of bed anymore to do all that training. You don't miss the training, the traveling, the time. from home, the airports, the hotels, even though I think I'm busy now than I've ever been. But it's, yeah, that it's more, there's two feelings which are interesting. One is

at the start of the game and it's that anticipation, getting you're not sure what's going to happen, what's going to happen this game, and you're on edge, and that's a good thing, you need that to play at your best. So that's one feeling I don't miss because after time it does

take it out of you. The feeling I don't, I wish I could relive, is standing at the top of your mark, first ball of the test match, you know, capacity crowd, umpire calls play, batsman faces up, you just let it drag out a little bit longer, the atmosphere builds and builds, and that feeling is an amazing feeling which I've never been able to replicate in any life in any way, shape or form. So that, I do miss, you know, that it's an amazing feeling. At Lord's it doesn't happen because the crowd's so silent, and if you stand too long, you look like an idiot but that's that feeling when you walk on the field is a special feeling so

I miss it yeah well I wonder what Usman Khawaja will feel tomorrow when he wakes up a mixture of happiness relief and some sadness as well that it's all over now Travis Head was the player of the match and he's with Isha Goua Travis you've scored centuries pretty much everywhere your first one here in internationals how special was it pretty much ever already in Australia. Yeah, it's special. There's a couple of good names up there. We've always found it tough to bat here,

so nice to be up the order, nice to get the hard ball, and nice to contribute again. How did it rank with the other tons that you scored in the series? I said every hundred you get is going to be well-cherished, but I probably hold the couple

at the start of the series when it's on the line and we have an opportunity to win an Ash's series in the first couple of tests. That was the pleasing part, and then, I guess, from a personal perspective,

it's nice to finish a series in the fifth test. with runs again and make sure we don't take the foot off and what amazing week we've had. You certainly cemented that place opening the batting. I hear that you're in charge of plans tonight as well. No, one of the Sydney boys, I think. So maybe, I don't know.

Cammo should probably pull the weight a little bit and organise a few things. Starkey's probably ready to go after five test matches on the bounce and it will do his thing. Well, they've had enough time to think about it. Well, done once again. There we go.

That's Travis Head, 629 runs in the series. The player of the series, though, is Mitchell Stark, and he is speaking to Isha as well. Mitch, a bigger pause from the hometown crowd. A special moment for you, back-to-back player of the series awards for yourself. Is this the best you've ever bowled in your career? Maybe.

Yeah, it feels like it's going okay. The body's still holding together, and it's a great group to be a part of. It's a lot of fun, especially when you've got Travis at the top there and in the change room. So it's been a great group to be. be part of it and I'm just glad to be playing a role. A huge impact for you right throughout the series.

But more importantly, you mentioned there that the body you're able to make it through the five tests. What did it take? Yeah, a little bit tired. Scotty and I on the oldest side of things, but yeah, we still managed to get a job done. So between Scotty Ness and I, we're certainly being told we're not on the younger side of things, but to play the roles that we did, we're a bit tired and saw yesterday. But, yeah, I think the entire squad, we haven't used just 11 players.

I think it's between the plays and the staff. It's been a long series, but obviously very fruitful and enjoyable to be part of it. We've got to talk about the batting on reflection. Just how important were those runs? Yeah, glad I got a few out of the middle at the start of the series because certainly didn't at the end. But, yeah, there's no better incentive for a bowler

than to not have to bowl and stay out there with the bat. So it's nice to put a few partnerships there together. I think batting with Scotty in Brisbane was a big one for us to get to that night session and bowl with the newer pink ball under lights, was a big one for us. And nice to chip in here and there, but I'm always glad to see Hedy

and those guys do the scoring. And just last one, the McGraw Foundation, this is such a big test because of raising money for what is such an important cause. What's the significance of it for you and your team? Yeah, I guess this week's more than just the cricket. It's obviously the final test of the series, but I think between, obviously, England

and other oppositions that come here and play this test match, get right behind. it's fantastic to see that, not only from the opposition teams. The cricket fraternity, the crowds have been awesome. We saw Day 3 was a huge day. So, yeah, that partnership with the McGrath Foundation and cricket, not only in this country, but as a community. We thank all the fans in the crowd for playing their part in that.

And yeah, it's been a big test match. Well said. Congratulations once again. Thanks, each. Well, big series for Mitchell start. Big game for you, Glenn. But you wanted to make a point about Stark at the start of the series. Six for 75 in that first innings. And the way England were going to play against the banksier ball

and the big grounds as well, on the big grounds. Yeah, so the two questions I had against England coming here and the way they play was one, how they were going to go on bouncy pitches and two on bigger fields. So a lot of times you go for the shot and it carries just over the boundary in England. That's not going to carry here. But it was more on these bounty pitches. hitting through off a length, hitting balls that are bouncing and moving away.

And I think that brought a lot of the English batsmen undone. They wanted to keep playing their shots, and I'm surprised. You know, Tres, Marcus Trescothic and the team and the guys didn't talk about, you know, watching that. Don't try to hit the ball on the up or just pick the line and hit through it. That bounce and seam is going to be undoing and has been to a lot of teams. and so for as long as I can remember. So those few things I thought were going to be an issue and I think hitting balls on the up

and bouncing probably cost them at least the first two matches, if not three. Yeah, what about Stark as well in this series? I mean, like you, you played well on into your 30s. Mitchell Stark is past his mid-30s now. He's been magnificent in this series. He's been brilliant, hasn't he? And especially when he hasn't got,

you know, he's put bowling partners in Pat Cummins and Josh Houselwood. He's had the workload for this whole series. You know, every ball. His bowled has nearly been mid-140s. From the first ball, he's bowled. And he's got such good control now. You know, in the past, there was the control issues,

which to me was more to do with his run-up and the pace in which he runs up. He knows his game so well. You know, a dangerous bowler when it's swinging. You know, he swings a new ball, balls aggressive lines, good control, and good pace so over 100 test matches

he's now passed was he Macrop who I think was the greatest left arm fast bowler I've seen that could do anything the fact that he's now up alongside was

and just past him speaks volumes of just how good Mitchell stock is one of the labels that was attached to this Australian side coming into the series was rather uncharitable one

it was Dad's Army what do you see as the future for this Australian side do you see this as now award Shed series, you know, they've won the series, but there will be changed, or there

has to be change? Yeah, last time I heard that EarTag was 0607, so we'll mark as Dead's Army as well, and yeah, you can't beat experience. And, you know, this team, there's going to be massive changes

without doubt before the next Ashes here in Australia. In 18 months, there's still an opportunity I think for this team to be together, going to going to the UK so I don't think there'll be too many big wholesale changes too many retirements coming up in the next 18 months

after that I think they'll all start happening this they're getting a little bit older a little bit longer in the tooth and yeah we'll see what the next generation can do you can watch highlights on the BBC Sport website and app with our full highlight show on IPlayer the TMS Ash's debrief will be available on the BBC I player with Alex Hartley and guests Keep checking BBC Sounds for all our podcasts, regular episodes available,

and keep checking sounds for all our live cricket, including commentary from the Big Bash League. We'll have every ball of the men's T20 World Cup available from the 7th of February. But that's it from the Ashes. Thanks to you all for listening. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.