Test Match Special - The Ashes: John Aiken - from first-class cricketer to 'Married at First Sight' love guru

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

From playing against Brian Lara and Brendon McCullum to starring in 'Married at First Sight', John Aiken's story is extraordinary. He tells Stephan Shemilt how it all happened.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This month in football, everything is up for grabs. The Premier League battles intensify, the Champions League reaches its crucial turning point, and the World Cup draw sets the stage for the biggest tournament on earth. Football Daily from the BBC brings you sharp analysis, instant reaction, expert insight, and the stories driving the game on and off the pitch. Your Essential Football Podcast Delivered every day.

Listen to Football Daily on Spotify to Football Daily on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. The TMS Podcasts on BBC Sounds. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast. This is Stefan Shemelt in Australia. We've been bringing you daily episodes from England's Ashes Tour

and today is something a little bit different. John Akin has made two careers on building relationships. Today, he's known by millions of people across the world as the relationship guru on cult reality TV show married at first sight, Australia. It's no exaggeration to say he's one of the most famous men in this country. But before that, John was a first-class cricketer in New Zealand, sharing a dressing room with Chris Cairns and Martin Crowe

and playing against Brian Lara and even the current England head coach, Brendan McCullum. I sat down with John over a coffee to discuss his remarkable story, taking him from playing cricket at Lords to now stopping for selfies and giving impromptu relationship advice to fans all across the globe. TMS at the Ashes. John, I think the first thing to say is I deal with cricket as ever. every day, cricket is my thing. I don't get starstruck very often, but today I am.

Really? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Because you're genuine superstar in these parts, aren't you? You must be, I don't know, how has maths changed your life? Oh yeah, there's certainly completely changed my life. I mean, before I was on maths, I was a psychologist working in private practice. You know, seeing singles, couples, minding my own business, and then I got this audition back in 2014 for a very crazy concept and I didn't really think that it had any chance of succeeding

and then it blew up and now we're into series 13 and so 13 series on what is life like can you mind your own business well no you've become very very much part of the public landscape people want to grab selfies with you I was at the cricket the other day and you know you're sitting next to people that want to talk maths so both UK people, because it's very big over there, but also obviously the Australians. And so you lose some of your privacy, but you learn to just live with that. And I think because the show is very polarising. So they either love it or hate it.

And so people want to talk to you about what they love and hate. And I've just sort of got used to that. So you're sitting watching the first day of the second test at the Gabba. Loving it. And you're trying to work out why is Steve Smith just gone for that review? And you might be getting a nudging the ribs being asked for relationship advice or what's going to happen in the next series? Yeah, well, there was this guy in this very bright Hawaiian pink t-shirt.

There was about five of them with pink bucket hats on. And I was just watching the cricket, and over he came. He wanted to know about Series 13 and he wanted a selfie. So you're constantly aware that people are aware of you, even in a big crowd like that. But it's great because, you know, as long as people are talking about it, means it's still having that traction. Do you know your Wikipedia page?

Are you aware of it? I haven't been on it for a long time. Do you know what it says? No. John Aiken, Brackett's, cricketer. Well, that was my life before maths. Yeah. I mean, I played first class cricket for about a decade in New Zoo.

both for Wellington, Auckland, and then I made an appearance for New Zealand A against some of the touring teams, like the West Indies and South Africa. So I was very much a part of the whole cricket scene, you know, got to 30 and then I went really into psychology and then sort of ended up on TV. So, all right, clear this up for me. Born in Sydney, but played in New Zealand. Yeah, so moved over there when I was 12. My father worked at universities and he took the family over there and I always was an Australian living in New Zealand.

But yeah, got my first class debut probably 18 at the time, I think I was. And then just spent a decade playing cricket and also studying and getting my degree. Wellington was home? Mostly and then I moved to Auckland for the last couple of years. And was it always cricket when you were younger? I loved rugby as well. as well, which, you know, when you're in New Zealand, you know, you can't help, you can't help but love it. I didn't, I wasn't blessed with a lot of speed, if I'm totally honest. I had a

good pass on me, so I was inside centre, but realised as time went on that you've got to be fast to play at a good level, and I wasn't. So cricket really became my focus. When did you realise that cricket could be a thing for you? I think, look, I was in the underage teams. I went to England with the New Zealand under 18s and we had Cairns, Perrory, Harris, Mark Richardson. We had a lot of good names in that team. So I think when I was in that sort of representative level, I thought, well, maybe, you know, we got to play at Lords and the Oval. England had a fantastic team, Ramprakash, Gough, Crawley.

I mean, they were very good. And so I guess I felt like, well, maybe if I push on for it. from here I could make a go of it. What's Planet Lords like? Amazing, yeah. I mean, we played three one days and I think we had three... So, tasmatchez? Four days.

Yeah. And we played in the most amazing grounds. It was about an eight-week tour. Nick Knight basically put us to the sword every single time we faced him. But we had Chris Cairns and he sort of evened out the playing field. But it was a great experience for me. you know because you know you realize well if you can score some runs here you know you're going to you're going to have a chance at this stage as an 18 year old is there anything going on

outside of cricket have you got one eye somewhere else or are you or you just no i had cricket but i also wanted to be a sports psychologist so i had that leaning to go into university and play cricket and get my training because i thought that was what i would ultimately do but uh i then stumbled into clinical psychology which I really loved and relationships and that just sort of took over my life so once I finished cricket I could just then move into into that area you've had your your tour of England as a yeah as an 18 year old and you just mentioned I know some of those names yeah I mean they went on to some of those to have fantastic careers Dominic cork was another that I had to face yeah they had a very very strong team I think

I think Martin Ball was a spinner. Yeah. So for us, it was a real learning curve for us because we were a team that was touring and we were playing against these guys that were kind of young stars at a county level. You know, so they had a lot of experience. So it was a good way of learning, you know,

to really deliver under pressure against real quality opposition. You know, Cairns, Perrory, Harris, Richardson, and they all went on to really, you know, big things at an international level. Did you know they were going to be at that time? I think Kansy, yes, you know, any time, I mean, he was six foot four, bold, fast, smashed the ball out of the ground, didn't matter who he was against. So he always had this ability.

I think you do see players, they've got a confidence about them, but their talent sort of transfers against any sort of attack. And then not long after, you're playing first class cricket for Wellington. I wrote down some names, Bruce Edgar, Gavin Loss, and you in Chatfield. I mean, these are big names in New Zealand cricket that you're a young man and in the dressing room with. Yeah, yeah. That was very challenging because I came in and I was one of the younger ones that were essentially looking to make their way. And there was a really strong group of experience, veterans in there. And yeah, I remember when I first went into the change room, I didn't know where to sit.

And then one of them, one of the older veterans, said, listen, you're going to sit up in a shower. And so for my first game, I unpacked my bag, I was in the shower there, and I guess I learned very quickly where my, you know, my place. And it was a, but I managed to get 100 on my debut. I got 150 not out against Canterbury. really gave them a sense of okay well this guy can play and I sort of slowly got kind of welcomed into that setting. What about having the basin reserve as home? Yeah it was amazing place to play most of my cricket. Great wicket, good bounce, even even bounce and it's got that huge bank there and so you've got this sense of being

really close to the crowd when it packs out and yeah I had some I had some great moments at the basin. It sent some pretty bad ones, too, to be honest. What sort of cricket were you? Yeah, well, left-hand opening batsman. So I probably, I was a bit more conservative than, say, the likes of your Duckett or your Crawleys, you know, your Slater, your Haydens.

Those guys tended to go after the bowling, whereas I was a little bit more watchful. Probably tended, if I'm honest, to Nickette. out too much so I was a little bit inconsistent but I had my moments I think ultimately if I was playing today I'd have to change my game and be more attacking whereas when I was coming through it was still about leaving the ball playing in the V you know wearing the opposition down and and that's it then you're cricketer at the age of 18 19 yeah you're made aren't you well yeah I mean

And it's kind of a, it's a great lifestyle. You know, you're traveling around, you're staying in lovely hotels, you're, at this stage you're playing three-day games and one day as T20 hadn't come in when I was playing. And it's a great lifestyle for a single guy, you know, and you, the challenge is not to get too far inside your head, and that was probably the one thing that kind of held me back was that I would overanalyze pretty much everything. I'd be up at night in front of the mirror shadow batting all that sort of thing and probably some one of the lessons I look back on is that you know playing at that level

it's often good not to think too much you know and that way you sort of keep a level of calm about what's going on you've just said that you know you're in your own head yeah too much thinking yeah and then there's another career that you're thinking about. So when does this come about and I don't know if you've got that self-awareness of yourself as a as a sportsman where the two overlap? I think what happened with me is that once I left cricket I worked in a whole lot of different areas forensics, intellectual disabilities, general mental health and hospitals and then I went to private practice and really found couple work fascinating. I loved conflict which really

surprised me. Two people warring it out in my rooms was fascinating. So I really just found it very much a part of me to be in that sort of field of relationships, whether it's dating or couples. And I never had that sense of I wanting to be on TV. But then when it came along, what was very different about television work for me was that I wasn't in, my head like I was when I was playing cricket. I was very much present. I had to just roll with whatever happened in front of me, whatever I was expected to do.

And I really was, I loved it. So I kind of had a different approach to media than I did about cricket. Cricket was very much about planning, visualising, organising, goal setting. TV was about getting there and just whatever's in front of you. in front of you, call it out and just roll with it. And I feel like I'm much more relaxed in the world of media

than I was when I was playing cricket. When did the training start though? It would have been straight after school. So I was 18. I began. I did seven years at university, came out in 95 and then basically went for it. Was that a usual thing for a cricketer to be doing? Because back in the 90s, there was quite a big university scene in cricket in the UK, for example. UK for example so yeah I don't think so I think at the time you know people were you know

going on gap years and doing things like that travel but I had grown up in a family where with a pretty focused on education dad was a professor in accounting and so he very much wanted me and the other kids to go through university so it was just something that I thought well that's what I'll do the great thing was that I had lecturers and supervisors that loved cricket. So they were like, look, if you've got to take time off to play, you take it. And so they were very pivotal in getting me through it all. So what was the degree in? I got a master's degree in clinical and community psychology.

And then came out and essentially you can work in any sort of area you want. That's one of the great things about clinical psych. And I had a great supervisor that said to me, hey, If you can work at forensics, you can deal with anything. And so I went into forensics initially and then moved into private practice. So you've completed that around about the age of 25 and you're still a professional cricketer. So I know what comes then for that sort of phase of your career? For me I was happy to work a little bit in, you know, in psychology.

But ultimately I want to see whether I could play for New Zealand and I mean I got close. I had some moments. I got 80 against the West Indies, which was a touring side when I was playing for Auckland. I got 40 odd in a one day against South Africa, but ultimately I think I didn't get the big runs that you need when those touring teams are there. You need the 150 to really stand out

and force your way into the team, and I didn't quite get those big runs. Who would you have been trying to nudge out of the New Zealand team? than team? Well, I mean, at that time, Craig Spearman, who had quite a lot of cricket over in England at the time, Blair Pocock, who played a good deal of T.S. Cricket. Who else would have been in the mix? I mean, Mark Richardson came along as well later on in the piece. It was just, I mean, you've got to be consistent, and when you get your moment, you've got to really take it. And I think looking back I was I was inconsistent you know I could get a good a big hundred one day

but then you know what may nick out the next day so you know you've got to the stage at the age of 25 where you've you've qualified you've got your you've got your qualification but there are still there's still part of you that's going right I've got this in the background and that's there but for the moment I am a cricketer and I want to see how far this can go that's right that's right and the thing that interested me then you were born in Sydney you live in Sydney now Yes. But you just said you wanted to play for New Zealand? Yeah.

So if I offered you right now a black cap or a baggy green... Oh, I mean, while I was happy to play for New Zealand, I've always considered myself in Australia. I'm a long-suffering wallaby supporter. I love getting up and watching the kangaroos in the middle of the night, play England. You know, I've loved watching the Australian cricket throughout the years. and just I really admire, you know, the mindset over here. In saying that, though, I've kept in contact with a lot of the black caps

that kind of I played with as I was growing up. Like who? Well, I've stayed in touch with Mark Richardson, Kansy, Chris Harris. I mean, all of those guys, Craig Macmillan. And all of those guys, what's great about them is that when I see them now, it's just like we played together back when we're 18. A lot of them have gone into commentary.

What's strange now though is that they see me as the guy from maths, not so much the left hander who played for Wellington, you know? So it's a kind of a strange sort of transformation for me. And I just went up the other day and I was actually in Wellington. And Brendan Julian was there and I caught up with him and, you know, he knew me not as a cricketer, but as a guy on a reality show. And he was kind of like, what are you doing here? And so I explained him that I had a background in cricket as well.

And so it is strange that, you know, you sort of have a second type of career, really, which is what I've had, which I'm very grateful for. So I was going through some score cards and I wrote down names of some players that you came up against. Gary Kirsten Oh, I loved him Hansi Cronier Jonti Rhodes Yep

Johnny Rhodes ran me out Any day of the week It was an easy single I hit it into the gap I said yes Easy won He ran me out by half the pitch Daniel Vittori

Yeah he was great Always Just a just Always landed on a handkerchief You know And a fella called Lara Brian Lara Yeah

So we were playing in this Tour of match I was batting at three Auckland versus West Indies and we had a meeting and we just said listen the night before nobody nobody say anything to Brian Lara we greet him as Mr Lara we are polite and if he gets bored

he may get out early because we all know that if you sledge him he's likely to get 400 against you so sure enough he walks out hello Mr Lara how was your stay how's it going he was delightful he must have pumped our opening bowler out of the ground twice I faced about I'd say an over and a half

hit one up in the air and he was out and we all just breathed an immense sigh of collective relief but I also remember because I was in gully and I remember Lara's batting and I'm thinking whatever you do do not drop this ball because he will score 400 you cannot give him a second chance so he was remarkable and also playing them it was a real eye-opener for me it was like playing the South Africans they were more aggressive when I played

them they're incredibly ferocious with the sledging and just their their focus and they were all you know you had guys like Brian McMillan you know he looked like a second roller from the spring box you know huge bucket hands and Jack and Donald's and so they were very intimidating team. The West Indies, they were fast. I mean, yeah, it was another step up from first-class cricket, which was what I was playing. But I learned so much. And then strangely, we then played also Sri Lanka with Murrili and Chiminda Vars and Ranatunga and Aravinda. I mean, I was very blessed to be around at the time with some of these great teams. There's another name that I've got written down that you came up against. It's particularly

relevant for this Ashes series. Brendan McCollum, a very young, Brent. Brendan McCullough, who, I asked, and he says his wife gets him to watch Married at First Side. I love that. I love that. I've always thought, I've always, I've never met his wife, but I've always thought she's tremendous. That's good to know. It means, it means Brendan's across the series. I mean, he, I love the way he played, you know. And as a coach, I love the fact that he's got this, I mean, he does things his own way. You know, and he was kind of ahead of his time. the way he took on one day as and tests, T-20s, but that's good to know. Can you remember him as a young man? Because he was quite a brash character from O'A, yeah, yeah, yeah. I loved his confidence.

Anyone from O'Targo, like, when you play O'Targo, you've got to roll your sleeves up because they're going to come hard at you. His, I don't know, confidence and a lot of things that he bought, particularly as a very young man, that doesn't always sit naturally in New Zealand sport. No, no. And, you know, if you think about when I first came into first class cricket, I deferred to all of the veterans, I'd sit anywhere, I'd do anything. And I think fast forward, when Brendan came in, he was very much, you know,

he believed in his ability, but also he, I think he had a style where, you know, I'm going to really make a name for myself right from the word go. And he doesn't seem to be a guy. I mean, I don't know him very well. but he doesn't seem someone that worries too much about what others have to say. He doesn't get so far in his head, whereas I think when I was playing, I was very aware of others. So you made four first class hundreds and one list 800. Yeah.

What's your favourite memory from your time? I think probably for me, I would say probably my first class 100, which was on debut. Because, you know, you just don't know what it's going to be like when you make that step up from second 11 cricket or underage cricket to playing against men. And they were, you know, Canterbury had some very good players, very vocal too. You know, I was playing against Richard Petrie, who became a great friend, but, you know, very vocal. Latham, you know, Rod Latham, hard men, you know, I think. and so when you make your debut you kind of got to really steal yourself

for not only just facing the bowling but the whole atmosphere around you and I think that to be able to get 100 on my debut I think for me was something that I I'll never forget that sort of moment of raising the bat well you finished at 30 you got a pair in your last first class game

yeah that's funny isn't it you start strong you finish dreadfully but I tell you what I did do which I love before I finish I always wanted to have a season over in England playing club cricket. So I went to this wonderful club called Gummersall, which is in the north of England. Sort of the Heartlander Rugby League, you got Huddersfield and Batley and Leeds. And here's Gumasel, this little beautiful sort of village cricket club.

And I had six months. I just absolutely loved my time there. How will do you then? I was 30. So I was a bit older than most of the young ones that come through and do that. But I wanted to experience what it's like. And I mean, as you know, the English, the Northern English sense of humour is just remarkable. And so, I mean, I got sledged hellaciously over there any time I went out to bat.

But it was so clever what they were saying to me. I'd often be giggling under the helmet as I was walking out because they just had this wonderful way of sort of Cutting you off at the knees, but in a very clever, funny way. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. I'm Maisie Adam. And I'm Susie Ruffel. And we host the women's football podcast, Big Kick Energy. Each week we bring you the latest from the WSL and beyond.

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Yeah, you should. Okay, cool. This month in football, everything is up for grabs. The Premier League battles intensify. The Champions League reaches its crucial turning point, and the World Cup draw sets the stage for the biggest tournament on earth. Football Daily from the BBC brings you sharp analysis, instant reaction, expert insight, and the stories driving the game on and off the pitch.

Your essential football podcast delivered every day. Listen to Football Daily on Spotify, to Football Daily on BBC.com, or wherever you get your podcasts. TMS at the Ashes. So come on then. How does a, I don't know, Semi-success first-class cricketer

end up as one of the biggest names in Australian TV. Well, I mean, I have to say that you know, the timing was everything for me because when I was in Australia,

I moved back from New Zealand to Australia in 2008, set up private practice and I was just working away and then... What's your situation at this time, family situation? Married. Yep. We've got kids on the way, we've just had our first,

and I'm sitting in private practice in 2014 and I get a group email saying would you like to audition for a show called Merritt for a site which I showed my wife she said that does sound pretty crazy and no one really thought that it would go anywhere at the time there was singing cooking dancing and renovation shows that's what everyone was watching there's no relationship shows so I did the audition and I got it and I remember thinking after filming the first season which had like I think we had four couples on it went for six episodes so it was tiny thinking this will never work because people don't want to talk about relationships had you been on TV before I'd done some work in New Zealand on TV doing what some documentaries I'd done a lot of that sort of TV work you know in the morning TV they get on a psychologist to talk about you know various things so I'd done some of that was that just I don't know a random request someone looked you up and said But they got me...

Yeah, yeah. And they'd got me from, you know, seeing me around the traps. But when I came to Australia, no one really knew of me at all. And so I just kind of really focused myself on running a private practice. But then I got this email that put me into a show which it just exploded. Right from the word go, people were. absolutely fascinated with, which surprised me, with where the two strangers can fall in love. And then it went from six episodes to now 40 episodes, where we had four couples, we've now

got 12 couples, and now it goes into 120 countries. So it literally just blew up. And I was sort of the front of it, thinking, you know, how do I manage this? So timing. I had the chops. I mean, I was a relationship expert, so I knew everything that was going on in terms of how to deal with couples and singles. The crossover between, I don't know, clinical psychologist, relationship expert and cricketer, and I don't know, the different aspects of the skills and the mind. There must be some crossover. Yeah, I think that probably is. I mean, you know, when you're dealing with cricket, I found that you've got to be able to work in with a team environment. And you've got to be practical. You've got to be able to deliver under pressure.

And at times, you know, you've got to be able to deal with setbacks. And I look at the media and merit at first sight, and you've kind of got that same sort of skill set that you've got to have. You know, you're working with a production team. you're going to have adversity you're going to have people that say and do things that shock you and you've got to pivot

and you've got to be able to get along and essentially you can't have egos or that's what I've found in the cricket world same within the media world. My approach is ego's down you've got to all sort of get along

and I found that's the crossover for me and it's worked well I think the first series was 2015 married at first sight you're just about to you've just finished filming series 13 that's going to come out when's out that will come out in the UK in about April and in Australia it comes out in late Jan how how has that changed your life the show itself well you you've become someone with public profile so certainly whether it's being in the supermarket or at a restaurant

or in a cafe or even in the gym, people are going to stop and they want to talk to you about that. You've also got, I guess, for me, the challenges of social media, which wasn't around when the show first started, but now it's very much a part of it all. And you have to develop a very thick skin. So, because everybody, and cricketers absolutely are aware of this now, but everybody's got their opinions on the show. and upon my performance on the way it's edited and they and as I've said before it's a show that is very polarizing so people can love it or they hate it

they don't seem to sit in the middle and so it's changed me in terms of it's made me develop more of a thick skin and also to just sort of you know try not to take things too personally and you know when I look at the show itself as well you know you you certainly you learn skills that perhaps you probably didn't have before and I've and I've become much better at I think the media in general as a result of it you said earlier on that you know when you were a cricketer that maybe you're in your own head and yes there was concerns and all those sorts of things right one of the centerpieces of a married at first sight

show is what is John going to say on the couch when you get to the commitment ceremony and there is a couple or a person that's about to be held to account and you deliver addressing down you know you are the authority in that room right so how does how are the where do the two meet that the man who was in his own head as a cricketer and the man who is so confident to be able to deliver something like that on TV I think I think ultimately that that's been the shift for me I was I was very much my own head playing cricket and very aware of others and getting along and working in with people. Now I am basically somebody who I don't know what I'm going to say.

I know I've got 25 years of experience working with couples so that's not the issue. The issue is being able to say something in a very short way which gets them to sit up and pay attention and I guess I don't have that same care factor that I used to have when I was playing cricket. It's sort of morphed into, I have a role, they're either going to listen to me or more often than not they're going to push back and say, I don't know what I'm talking about. And then you have this combativeness that occurs. And I guess the difference is I'm older now and I'm not there to make friends or to please them. I'm there to really give them, hold a mirror up to me and say, do

better and so I think that's just been my role and maybe it's just come with age but also like I said before when I found myself I didn't set out to be in the media but when I started it I found it was very it came naturally to me it was something that I don't really think about I love when someone puts a camera on me and I've got to say something and then I'm done and so I think that's where it comes from I don't think about it I just go in I see something and I call it out So are you a more natural maths expert than you are opening batter? I think so.

I think I'm not inside my head when I'm in maths and doing my role. When I was playing cricket, I was inside my head. That's one of the things you tell people. Get out of your own heads. Yes, absolutely. Overanalyzing things generally slows you down. And in cricket, you know, if you're thinking about your technique all the time I found that it would ultimately lead you to.

getting out whereas and feeling insecure about your game whereas when you're out of your head you're very present you just essentially authentic and calling out whatever you see it just comes across in a much more natural way I don't really mind what people have to say about me because I'm not in my head anymore whereas when I was playing cricket I did worry about what people would say about the innings that I would have or how I got out or the catch I dropped Because I was very much inside my head. And I think that's the big difference between me then and me now.

I'm sure you get asked this all the time. Favorite maths moment? I mean, I've had so many memorable moments because it is unscripted. It is real, it is authentic, and you don't know what they're going to do. But for me, probably the one that always stands out, which is when I realized, oh, well, I think we've got something big here, was when at a dinner party, series six, I'm watching with my two experts, because we're in a different room, we're watching it live. And Martha says, I think I'm going to pour wine over her head.

And I remember looking at the experts thinking, did she really say that? And then she gets up, and she goes over Cyrelle, and she pours wine over Cyrelle's head. And I thought, this has gone to another level. I've never, and that moment, because it was very iconic that moment, and that series probably was our biggest rating series ever to date and I think that moment really it just took it to another level because there are many things that gets that gets said about the show but what I can say is that it is unpredictable it's unscripted and what you're seeing is reality these are real people now you and I might not meet them you know at the petrol station

but they do exist and what you're seeing is 24 of them together in a show And so you're going to get all sorts of absolutely bizarre behaviour, but it's very compelling. And you've had two careers. Yeah. Which one? Opening batter or TV relationship expert? You know, I'd have to say I've loved being the relationship expert on maths. Cricket for me had some great moments, some real highs.

I made some great friends and played in different grounds all around the world. and I'd love that. But I think for me, when I was playing cricket, there was an anxiety to it. There was very much an overanalysis of what was going on with my game, which didn't really allow me, I think, to flourish and to sit back and enjoy the ride.

Whereas I'm married at first sight, that's all that I do. You know, I don't think about it, I am just in the present, I love it, I'm very excited by it and grateful for it. And so that just allows me then to just go wherever it takes me and I think that's why I would choose married at first sight because there's more excitement that I'm that I have now doing this than

perhaps when I was playing cricket. Well as a final thought you know the way that you've just described that as to why you would make that choice is because there were maybe obstacles to you succeed in in cricket. If those obstacles weren't there and I offered you a black cap or a seat on the mass couch do you know what I think I would still choose Max and the reason being is because you know my game you know nowadays I was a you know I played a relatively conservative way as a left-hand opening bat and I think ultimately if I had to play again I'd have to be able to hit the ball over the fence a lot that's where the game's headed and I just that wasn't

really my game. So I think maths for me is something that just has given me such joy. And I think the other thing I love about maths is that I do get opportunities that I've never had before, like sitting with you here. And then in the same breath, I'll be interviewed on a rugby league show, you know, because I love my sport. And they'll be talking to me about that. And then suddenly I'm doing a podcast. And so it just opens up something. many things that I think for me, merit at first side, is what I would always choose. It's been an absolute joy. Thank you very much. It's been fantastic. Thank you so much. I've loved this. How often do you get to talk about your cricket career? Not often. Not often. In fact,

people typically don't know me as a cricketer more often than not. So it is nice to step back. And what I find is a lot of fun is when I do bump into guys that I used to play with and we can reminisce about moments, you know, and even, you know, sitting in a bath in wards, you know, with a whole lot of 18-year-old guys, you know, having lost a one day because Nick Knight typically took to us, but sitting back and thinking, wow, this is, this is something we'll never forget, you know, so I do, I do enjoy when I get a chance to talk about it, but it's not that often. So hopefully now people do know you as a cricketer. Yeah, and I've got to say, you know, I'm always blown away by the UK and particularly how much they enjoy married at first sight.

And question for you, I'd love to know, what do you think makes it so appealing for people from all ages? Because I often get asked that. The dynamic between the couples, because when you say, oh, they are real people, or sometimes they don't feel like real people, but just when they get a strip torn off, them at the end of the week. Yeah, right. There's so many different things to it. And I've often been asked that.

And it's hard to know what the secret source is. But it is unique. You know, there's nothing out there like it. But I would agree that they do get invested with the couples. They do like that combative exchange at the end of the week. Just a good row, I think, is the better. That's the reason why we're watching. They kick off, yes.

And you know what? A couple of them have found love. So it can work. Strangers can fall in love. It doesn't happen that often, but it does like Cam and Jules, you know. And this year we do have some love in amongst the chaos, which we always need. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. That was married at first sight Australia relationship expert and former first class cricketer John Aiken.

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