Test Match Special - The Ashes: Khawaja calls it a day and calls out "racial stereotyping"

Episode Date: January 2, 2026

Usman Khawaja is leaving international cricket, and had much to say about treatment from the media and former players during his career. Plus, we hear from England's Zak Crawley.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimetres and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. Hello from the Sydney Cricket Ground. to the Test Match Special podcast. This is Henry Moran. Two days out from the start of the final

match of this Men's Ashes series. And we've got news of a retirement. Usman Kowager calling time on a career that has seen 88 test appearances. And he's had plenty to say both about life as a cricketer and experiences off the field during a passionate press conference. We'll be hearing from him and hearing from Zach Crawley over the course. of this episode of the TMS podcast. TMS at the Ashes. Well, early on this morning, Usman Kowager walked out in front of the media

in the bowels of the Sydney cricket ground with his family present. And once you know that the family are with him, it was pretty clear that the announcement that we were going to hear was that he would be calling time on his career. Perhaps what we weren't expecting was as well as stories of his journey into the game,

a passionate message about his experiences that have been far from positive during his time as an Australian cricketer and not just in the early days either but far more recently than that he spoke at length across the press conference including this passionate answer let's just strip it all the way back I've I've always felt a little bit different even to now I am I'm I'm a colour cricketer and, you know, Australian cricket team is, in my opinion, the greatest, that's our best team, it's our nationalists, it's our pride and joy. But I've also felt very different in a lot of respects, different by the way I've been treated, different for how things have happened. And I'll just go back, you know, something that's been on my mind, probably from the start of the series that I noticed, which I thought I'd kind of gone past before, and it was when I did my back. I hurt my back, I had back spasms

and it was something I couldn't control and the way I don't want to say you specifically but the way the media and the past players came out and attacked me I mean I could have copped it for two days but I copped it for about five days straight and it wasn't even about my performances

it was about something very personal it was about my preparation and the way everyone came at me about my preparation and it was quite personal in terms of you know things like he's not committed to the team you know he was only worried about himself he played this golf comp the day before he's selfish you know he doesn't train hard enough he didn't train the day before the game he's lazy these are the same stereotypes the racial stereotypes I've grown up with my whole life it's funny Rachel was

reading all this he's the one who's told me that she was blowing up I remember being in the car next to her and I was just laughing and then she got even more angry so why Why are you laughing? I was like, these are the same racial stereotypes I've been handling my whole life. I just thought that media and the old players and everyone else had moved past them. But we obviously haven't fully moved past him because I've never seen anyone been treated like that in the Australian cricket team before. For the performances, yeah, but not for the uncontrollables the way you guys went at me. And, you know, that was the thing that disappointed me the most because I thought we were past that. But there's still a little

bit out there, which I still have to fight every single day, which is the frustrating thing for me. You know, I can give you countless number of guys who played golf the day before and being injured. You guys haven't said a thing. No one else said a thing. I can give you even more probably responsive guys who've had 15 schooners a night before and then got an injured. No one said a word. That's all right. They're just being Aussie Larricans, right? They're just being lads. So for me, that was the frustrating part. But when I get injured, everyone went at my credibility and who I am as a person rather than normally when someone gets injured you feel sorry for him you feel a little bit of remorse you know poor Josh Hazelwood or poor Nathan

Lyon he's got an injured you know we feel really sorry for him we don't attack what happened to him that was the thing that's probably most sad about and that's what I've been dealing for a long time I don't talk about a lot but I felt like I'd needed to talk about it right here right now and I kind of know why you know I get nailed a lot of the times over the last, particularly last two years. I understand that I've talked about certain issues outside of cricket, which leaves me exposed, which a lot of people don't like. You know, I still find it hard of when I say, you know, that everyone deserves freedom and that Palestinians deserve freedom and equal rights, why that is such a big issue. But I get

it. I put myself out there. Even when we talk about Australian politics and, you know, we get all these right-wing politicians that are anti-immigrated. and anti-Islamophobia and I speak up against him I know people don't love that but I mean I feel like I have to because

where these guys are trying to divide create hate and trying to create animosity in the Australian community I'm doing the exact opposite I'm trying to bring everyone together I'm trying to bring inclusivity into Australia I'm trying to say I'm the Australian Muslim from Pakistan and I'm

Australian cricket right of funnier who loves playing cricket loves going out and doing everything that you do. I mean, if you talk about integrating into the country, I mean, I've got a white wife over there who I love and cherish, and I've got half Australian, half Pakistani kids. And so that is very frustrating to me at times. And I know what the older generation, I know what people say about me, you know, stay in your spot.

Don't speak about topics that you don't know. You're just a cricketer, do your thing. whatnot but you know how do you think it makes me feel when people talk about immigration or they start attacking you know Islam or Muslims for everything that's going on I am an immigrant in Australia I came here at the age of five it's personal it is you start attacking my faith in my belief system it is personal so I'm going to speak about that because not many athletes do and I understand why they don't because look what happened to me at the start of this series I got

absolutely nailed and it wasn't that last year when the Sheffield-Shill stuff happened I was one of the few plays that was playing Sheffield and you guys had a crack of me for missing a game. You had plenty of my teammates who were not playing. You didn't say it were to them. So for me, yeah, I've been dealing with this stuff a long time and, you know, and for me, it's not, I know I'm up here talking about topics and people are like, okay, Ozzie's here, he's playing the race card again.

I go, yeah, yeah, yeah, but don't gaslight me, like, genuinely. Brat, how many times have I helped you in the last two years, when you've been absolutely nailed by security, you've been harassed by them, at least four times, I reckon. I've helped you. Even in Perth this year, the security was on you. I was like, please leave him alone. This stuff happens all the time.

Like, you just don't see it. I don't talk about it. Rachel sees it. We just don't talk about it. And at the end of the day, I know people were trying to nail me and get me down, but you weren't part of my create, so you have no control of my fate.

And that's only God that does that, and I respect that. So even though it hurt and it sucked. I hold no angst against anyone in this room or anyone who said anything to me. I'm a guy who just sees it, moves on, and I move past. But I felt that I had to bring this up.

I didn't want to talk about this, but I just want the journey for the next Usman Khawaja to be different. I want you to treat him or her all the same, not have racial stereotypes of who they might be, and treat him with the same cloak that you would treat any of my, wholesome other cricketers that I play with and so for me coming back to your question

yeah it's been a different journey and I noticed that more than ever particularly at the start of this series all the stuff going on but I'll never stop being who I am I'm Australian I love cricket and I'll continue to be the person I. Well, following that press conference early on this morning, Barat Sunderresen, broadcaster covering the series, who has mentioned a number of times by Kowager over the course of the hour or so that he spoke to the press, and also Melinda Farrell, who is covering this Ashes series for the Cricketer magazine.

Barat, he's somebody that has always been happy to speak his mind, Usman Kowager, and it really did feel like the handbrake was off, and he said some very powerful things. And I think the timing of it as well, Henry, I just bumped into him around 15 minutes ago. So like an hour after the press conference. And we both agreed that this was his last chance to be so open and candid about his views not just on cricket, actually very less also on cricket, but more about Australia as a country. And not just living here, but being part of what is still such a white dominated sport. because in five days time or six days time

whenever this test ends he's no longer a current cricketer I mean he'll be in the commentary box he'll still have a voice but the voice is so much more powerful when you're still playing for Australia so I was very very happy that he had his say and he was always going to have his say I didn't expect you to go for an hour

but yeah I mean it's been it's been kind of simmering under the surface for a while now all these thoughts that he that he put out today so there we are Usman Khawaja is always divided opinions as a cricketer

and I'm sure what he said today will divide opinions around the country Mel is that fair do you think that there'll be some that say stick to cricket

it's always the phrase keep politics out of sport absolutely of course they will that's what has happened every time Usman Kowager has spoken about pretty much anything

and I'll find quite interesting. You know, we know what has happened in England and Scotland and, you know, other countries where the idea or the experiences of racism and the difficulties of being different within the sport of cricket has caused a real, a really introspective period. In some ways, you know, it's sort of harmed relationships. It's, it's gone a lot further. Whereas every time Usman Khawajah has spoken here in Australia, the first time I remember him really talking about it was in an article he wrote for a website maybe about 10 years ago. And the stuff that he detailed in that was pretty shocking, you know, it was the sort of stuff that you were hearing

in Parliament in England and people were very upset about it. But it kind of just passed by here in Australia and everything sort of kept going. And each time it's come up, I mean, Barat here is written about the racism he's experienced at grounds and still has, which is, you know, they're security guards not letting him in because, you know, it's a very colourful and handsome man. But so I think there will be definitely, and not just people. I mean, the people he really targeted or took aim at were the media and former players. And it was clear from how upset he was, you could see him holding it all in, that he feels that he has been attacked by the media, by former players, and there will be elements of the media in

this country that will take aim at him again when that story hits the papers tomorrow, guarantee it. Absolutely. And I think the big difference I've realized as a person who now calls Australia home, proud Australian, South Australian, is that with countries like the UK and other parts of the world, it seems like there's a longer history of whether it's migration or immigration or race issues, whereas in Australia, and especially if you just single out cricket as a sport, and it's funny, Span Khawaja kind of apologised to me for bringing me up during his press conference,

But I got it because there were two brown people there, him and me. And I guess we were both kind of prominent figures in Australian cricket. And once he spoke about race and he didn't want to come across with someone who was just like brought up the race card. And the moment he did, he had to point at the other brown person in the room and kind of talk about our shared experiences. And so which is why Mel and I was speaking about it off air. It's going to take a much longer time here for things like that to be addressed seriously and for people to take it seriously, whether it's me being abused racially wherever I go in this country or especially at cricket grounds, even though I wrote a very strong article

about about three, four summers ago, or what Uspan Khwaja continues to face, and other brown craters as well, because you look around the top tier of Australian cricket. There you can count the number of South Asian origin cricketers, men and very much. women. In like, you know, what, there are seven or eight of them. A couple of them play test cricket for or international cricket for the women's team. And even in Sheffield Shield cricket, there are only five. So I think it'll take much long time because even now when you speak out Henry or you talk about your experiences, there are a lot of people who feel for you. But then it just kind of either get swept under the carpet or people ignore it. And I think the other thing I have realized

is when you do move to another country and you look different and you sound different, your instinct is to somehow try to fit in and then you realize you'll never be able to fit in, like Kawa just said. I mean, you tried fitting into that Australian cricket team for the first five years, but then you realize you'll always be different, you know, and you at some point then that fitting in or the quest to fit in soon transforms into just your quest for acceptance for who you are. And that can take a long time. It might never happen.

And then you just reach a point, probably age plays a role as well. I mean, he's pretty much the same age as me, where you start feeling more confident in your own skin and you just say, you know, these people are never going to accept me for, as one of their own. So I'll just be my own person. And then the other thing also is you also, you know,

he spoke about, you know, realizing who is true friends are and who aren't. And I think my take on that is, I've experienced it first time within the media. You are everybody's best friend till the time they feel threatened by you. Like they feel like you're coming for their spot or your presence might impact how they are. And I'm not saying all of them, but like you experience it. And then that's when you start questioning yourself about, wait, am I truly accepted or am I accepted only on good days?

Can you talk us through your experiences? And you say you've written about it and I remember reading the article. But for those that won't have seen it, talk us through the day-to-day experiences that you have seen in cricket from your perspective. Yeah. See, firstly, you look a certain way and it's not just about colour. I mean, look, I accept that I stand out with my hair and the straggly beard and the clothes are where. So I know that the unknown always leads to people. I mean, it's suspicion and more than suspicion fear.

So for me, it's part of my daily existence in this country. I know more people know me now than they did a few years ago. But even then, you know, you go through airports, you go through daily life. There are the odd barbs thrown at you. I mean, I had one like just last year where this lady, we were going through security. She just looked at me and said, like, where are you flying to? And I said, oh, Adelaide. And she's like, thank God you're not coming to Brisbane.

I wouldn't feel safe if you're on the same flight as me. And you kind of look at her and go, well, what do you do? Or you walk into a train in Perth and there's this young person. It breaks my heart when it's a young person. They just look at you and immediately cover their nose as if, like, you know, you're just a smelly brown person. So I'm so used to it outside the perimeters of cricket. But when you are just doing a job wearing an accreditation car, and watching the Nets, and I do that a lot.

And then on a yearly basis, you get singled out by a security guard or someone in power and rudely you're asked to leave, your caste stat. Even though there are at least five white journalists standing right next to you, doing the same job, but they don't get singled out. And then you need Usman Kowaja or a Steve Smith or a Manus Labashane to jump to your support and say, hey, hey, wait, hang on. You know, he's doing his job. then even then the security guard or whoever it is looks at you suspiciously.

You just go like, wait, hang on. I can't even be accepted in a world that I have inhabited for so long as in our cricket world. So, yeah, it does break your heart. But Usman Kowaja said this to me when I wrote that article. He said, you'll just get immune to it. Don't worry. And sadly enough, I have. Like, it happened at the start of this series in Perth.

I was just stood there behind the nets. And immediately there was a white secretary guard who walked up to me. and he started kind of yelling at me and Uzi and I just looked at his man was batting in the nets he just looked around and said not again but how many more times do you want me to protect you

and now honestly there's and others have jumped in for my for support as well but today I stood there listening to him talk about it when he pointed it out and I was like well hang on he's going to go who's going to protect me next summer Mel might have to jump in for myself

but it's yeah it's one of those things Henry like you know every year or every time you think it's going to change. There are more of us now, more, like, Australia is getting multicultural on a daily basis. You see it, especially you go to a city like Perth or Brisbane. Like I went to Perth for that India, Odia. There's so many more Indian people there, so many more Pakistani people everywhere. But, yeah, I think it'll take a long time before this country is wholeheartedly accepts all of us, especially when it comes to cricket. As McQuajia went on to say, Mel,

that where Australia is now more widely and within. cricket is a lot further forward than it was when he started playing. But clearly there's you listen to Barat there and there's a lot to do. Yeah, there is a lot to do. And I'm, I think that's sort of everywhere. I look at programs that that say exist within within the English system like the SACA and Ace and the incredible work that they're doing to actively try and improve the representation because they know, I guess with Saka, you know, how many young people there are playing cricket to a certain level and then they kind of disappear. And that's the South Asian Cricket Academy.

Yes, sorry. Based in Birmingham, yeah. Oh, sorry, sorry, yes, I shouldn't assume. But, you know, so the South Asian Cricket Academy has massively increased. I think they're up to about 18 players now playing in, if they've got deals in the county game. And as Barrett said, there's still only five here, and this is a really aspirational sport in this country. So there are areas as well that are like that. One that comes to mind is like a Sunshine Cricket. I think it's called Sunshine Heights Cricket Club in Melbourne

is an area where they were trying to do a lot of work. But here it seems very much more there are these programs, but it's all quite softly, softly. There's not been any direct target, all right, we're going to increase this to this or we're going to get here. And look, he has been quite a powerful figure. And, you know, he didn't always speak his mind. It's not that he has always done that at all. It took him really, I think, until he was established as an international cricketer, that he did actually feel comfortable and confident enough to say something.

So, yeah, yeah, it's interesting. But I thought, for me, I thought the part that was very interesting was the fact the stuff he said about the former players, and I think that that was, that he couldn't, didn't feel that he even had the support of other cricketers. And I reckon that the reason that he pointed that out so much is because that's probably hurt him the most, that when you're experiencing this and the whole country's got a long, long way to go. But the fact that even within the cricket community, some very high-profile people, he feels have openly attacked him. It can be that way when it comes to women in some ways as well, which is I always feel very comfortable when I'm in England. There are some areas here when I come back here.

I think we've got a bit to catch up to get to England. We were talking about that. We kind of feel that as well. In some ways, this is still a young country that is finding its feet. when it comes to dealing with various issues. And I think we see that come to the fore and the reason it's so big is because cricket is so big and everyone sees it here.

So for someone of Usman Kowaj's fame and stature to say what he said, I think it really does show that while it has improved, it's got a long way to go. It does. And cricket Australia have tried in the last three, four years, to come up with a multicultural, like plan. I think that's what it's called. So they've appointed a bunch of us, which

includes Osman Khwaja and me and Lisa Stalaker and others within the South Asian community and the wider Asian community as well to play certain roles as multicultural ambassadors. But in my conversations with cricket Australia and people in mind, I play a similar role for the AFL as well, I have since last year. And you realize that more than anything else, there's a lack of understanding of how diverse South Asia is. And it's not as straightforward as just get a bunch of young brown kids and get them to play cricket. And the one thing I always talk about is the cultural understanding of the relationships between a parent and a coach. Because you see the numbers at junior cricket, grassroots levels, Henry and Mel,

they are going up all the time. And you cover a lot of under 19 World Cup cricket Mel. You see a lot more South Asian kids there. But there is a drop-off. There is a massive drop-off. And that's where I think someone like me, I think I have a huge role and Usman Kwaja as well, and explaining the other side of it,

the other side of what you need to do to sustain those players, keep them in the game. And this is a game I always play. I say, okay, you talk about being inclusive. So, all right, so you have, like, a lot of Indian kids playing in your club. So how are you going to include the parents? What are you going to do? What are you going to organize?

And before they answer, I say, you're going to say curry night, aren't you? And they're like, yeah, yeah, man, yeah, yeah, and I say, see, that's where you make a mistake. There's, you know, even the word curry has so many different definitions around India. So you have to really put in a real effort, like, no level of tokenism. I'm not accusing any or enough tokenism here. But if you're just going to use the numbers game here, I don't think you'll see a massive change happen at the top level.

And as much Usman Kwaja wants the pathway for the next Usman Kwaja to be easier than it was for him, obviously it would be easier, 30 years have passed since. But it won't be as easy as he thinks or as straightforward as he would like it to be or I would like it to be. Well, what I think is a difference in what you're saying, seen happen within, say, cricket Scotland and the ECB, is there's been a real look at, at, you talk about the borough, you're talking about the sort of wider cricket culture,

but actually the structural cricket culture and the changes that need to be made within that so that there is an environment there that can be created. And that goes back to some real organisational cultural things. So that's been something that's been a huge focus, obviously, with the ECB, and it has been at Cricket Scotland as well. Whereas here, the sort of stuff you were talking about, the encouragement, it's in the actual structure of the hierarchy. And I think it sort of goes deeper than that.

And that's what I'm not sure is being addressed in. How do we change that very, very white male culture that has existed in Australian cricket for a long time? Women have only just started being accepted into, and now we've got people from other cultures as well, other skin colours, other religions. Do we actually have the structures to be able to deal with? I don't know that they have done a lot of work on that here, but in England there's just been a lot more of, I think, introspection when it comes to do? We have all the pillars right to make sure that this never happens again and what's happened in the past. I think people, what we spoke about earlier as well, I think the UK is just used to sing people around, right?

I mean, you look at there's so many generations of South Asians who have lived in the UK. There have been, you know, the migration from South Asia has been probably, it's been going on here in Australia since the 80s and 90s. I know a lot of family and friends who moved here at that point, but they were far and few in between. Like now you look at just the 5 million Indian origin people

living in Australia. And that number has grown significantly, as we were reminded a lot when they marched against people of my kind in every major city. And there were two major marches as well, that how there are more Indians in particular who moved in the last 10 years than Italians and Greeks in the last 70 years. So now, think, whether it's Cricket Australia or whether it's the Australian government, they're just getting used to seeing more and more people of different color and different backgrounds, just call Australia home. And it's leading to, you know, away from the cricket as well. I mean, there are a housing crisis,

there's a rental crisis. And I don't think Australia is the first country when something like that happens or there's a job crisis. The first thing you point at is those aliens who have come from everywhere else and taken our jobs and our houses. So that's the level at which Australia is right now

in terms of its evolution as a country. And then you think about cricket, which still, I mean, it's still run largely by white people. I mean, there are a couple of people here and there in positions of power. But like Mel said, it has to come from within where I mean they're trying

they're trying their best to reach out and understand what it is so even the difference between and the question that gets asked first Henry like you know when you go around like I do umpiring as well in South Australia and often it'll be like a retired white person who I'm umpiring with

and just the fact that it starts with which one are you like which and you know so I don't think things like that you'll get away with in the UK right it's the subtle or the casual racism that does exist in this country, still kind of just, you can just laugh it off and go like, ah, that's all right, man, you can air.

But whereas from what I've heard about, about UK and just the cricket culture in UK, I mean, the Yorkshire issue and all of that, people are held to account a lot more over there. As clearly, they are not here because the fact that every year I go to the GABA, every year it's a different white guy who tells me to get off the effing lawn, and I complain to cricket Australia,

the cricketers complain to cricket Australia, but it happens. So to the extent this year, I had to call the cricket Australia person in charge three days before the Gabba test and said, man, I'm getting a bit of PTSD here. I know I'm going to get yelled and I know I'm going to get abused. So can we do something about it? And guess what happened? It still happens.

So I think there's, yeah, I think we need more stronger structures in place. And the only way that's going to happen is more and more of us. Like, you know, today in that room there were two of us, which is why Usman Khojah kept, we went back and forth. Like even when I asked him to question, he threw it back. back at me. Because we were, and apart from his parents in the room, we were the only two people who could relate with what's happened. And I think, yeah, it's going to take a long while, but I'm happy that someone with his voice, his started speaking out more. And to your point,

Mel, you're right. I mean, he didn't do this or he wasn't so open about his feelings earlier on, because neither was I, right? And you were there with me when the Mohammed Shiraj thing happened right here at the SCG, and we did it on your YouTube channel where it came from within. I felt like, hang on, I have a voice in this country now. If I'm not using that voice and I have thick skin, but that's not the same maybe for the other four million of us who live in this country who are of Indian or South Asian origin. So it is my responsibility and my duty to speak on their behalf. And the reactions I got from people of color and not just from South Asia, even people

from Africa and everywhere else. After I wrote that article was just such overwhelming support. And they said, hang on, finally we have someone speaking for us. So I think you only get to do that once you kind of feel safe, right, more than anything else. So but then, you know, then there are these marches and you feel unsafe again. So it's a country which is going through this massive transition. We talk about the middle order a lot with Australia.

But I think Australia as a country as well is going through this rapid phase of transition, which I'm sure Mel you'll see every time you come back during the summer. Both of you, thank you very much for your time, Barat, Sunderayson. Melinda Farrell, really so grateful to get your thoughts on what Usman Khawarja spoke about so passionately this morning. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. From a small village on the banks of the River Nile. Everybody called me Mohammed Bhatti, not short name or nickname,

to the biggest stages of world football. He goes for the curler. Mo Salah is more than just a player. He's an icon, a symbol, a king. It's six still, and Salah rips off his shirt. Mohammed Sala represents a dream for Egyptians, for Muslims, for Africans. More than just a football player, he gave us hope. I'm Kelly Kate.

This is Sporting Giants, Mo Sala. Listen on BBC Sounds. For England, they have the opportunity. to put a positive spin to the back end of their tour, having won in Melbourne the chance to make the series 3-2. The Ashes may have gone, but there is still a potential for a real positive note to start 2026 and wrap up what has ultimately been

a disappointing Ashes tour. Zach Crawley, the England opener, was wheeled out in front of the media earlier on today, and he spoke to the BBC's chief cricket reporter, Stefan Shemelt. Zach, can you just tell us what that win in Melbourne did for you guys as a group? We were, well, it made us very happy, yeah. We came here and it was obviously a disappointing first month to the tour and to have that much support in one ground and to win like that.

Yeah, showed a lot of character from us and we were very happy. There was a lot of chat after the Melbourne game about the pitch and the conditions and all those sorts of things, but also maybe about, I know, batting techniques as a collective on both sides. How difficult has batting been in this series? It's been tricky, you know, like I said before, they're a fantastic bowling attack in these conditions and

especially last week and Perth, I wasn't in the middle for Perth for very long, but it looked like a very tricky surface to bat on those two pitchers especially have been tough and but I feel like the two in the middle were good wickets and she's a good test matches. Those two were probably a fraction shorter than everyone in the crowd probably wanted, but

but yeah no it's been tricky they're a very good side in these conditions how does that change the role as an opener particularly I don't know in the second innings there at Melbourne when you and you and Ben really attacked a target but even not necessarily when you've got a target in mind how does it change the job when you know that conditions are difficult yeah fun enough I felt like we had some clarity about that chase it was probably the difference between Perth and Melbourne you know when you're chasing a score like that gives you a lot of clarity about how you need to play and third innings is actually probably the hardest time to bat.

You know, part of you wants to knock, you know, grind it out for your team. But then part of you know is you need to put some pressure back on the opposition and actually chasing the score brought quite a lot of freedom in the group and that, I think that helped. Well, how do you reflect on your series personally? Obviously, difficult start in Perth, but at the moment you're England's leading run scorer. I've been pleased with how I've played. And, you know, like I said, I felt good in going into the series.

obviously would have liked a couple bigger scores that could have changed the course of a couple of games so hopefully I can do that this week and contribute to a win. How big a difference is it between 4-1 and 3-2? Yeah, I think there is a big difference to that just internally in the group. I think that just shows a lot about our group

and how united we are if we can get a win and it might not go our way but if we can put up a good performance this week I think that says a lot about us as a group. Andrew McDonald said last week that Australia are only playing for World Test Championship points now that the ashes are done.

How do you guys see it from your point of view that it's still a test match when you've got the three lions on your shirt and a game for England against Australia? Yeah, it's the greatest honour of my life every time I play for England. So I think everyone in the team and the squad feels the same. So, you know, playing against Australia

is the pinnacle for us and every time we get a chance to play Australia, I'll leave everything on the field and I think that's the same with everyone in that change room. And just finally for me, You guys have got to make one change to the team because Gus has been ruled out. That might be Matthew Potts, who's been waiting a long time for his opportunity,

not just on this tour, but over the past year as well. How's he tracking? How's he been going in the Nets? Really well. I've faced a bit of Potsy, and every time I face him, he impresses me. He's got the heart of the line, a lot of skill. And, yeah, he fairly deserves it, and I'm sure it will go well. Well, that was Zach Crawley chatting to Stefan Schemel.

Stefan is alongside me now. For England, he spoke a lot about how happy they were that they got that winning medal. Of course, they're going to be. But it ultimately is a disappointing tour, but there are still positives to potentially play for. He's done a lot of media, hasn't he, Zach Crawley, for a man who got a pair in the first test, and normally it is the players who are doing well that do the press. And Zach Crawley is England's leading run scorer. You're talking about the sort of positives that can be taken away from this.

test match. And even if England do win, I think there'll still be a lot of mixed feelings about it because so many people are just wondering what might have been. This was billed as the most anticipated Ashes Tour in years. England's best chance to win the earn in this country since 2011. We're now looking at 40 years where England have won only once an Ashes series in this country. And they were so disappointing in those first three games just because they didn't look on it, they didn't look prepared, they didn't look battle-hardened and match-sharp. And so if England were to then win the last two test matches after playing three games, well, is that a cause for, I don't know I use the word

celebration, but positivity, or does it just add to the frustration that England got it wrong across those first three test matches? I guess the one thing that England can take away from this and a good result this week would be the point that, Michael Vaughn made about his team in 2005 and his captaincy then in that he was part of a team in 2003 that was 4-0 down and then they came and won in Sydney and he saw that as the the catalyst for what he knew he had to do over the next couple of years to win the earnback that's if england win if england lose here and they lose this series 4-1 and if they were to lose this game you know in disappointing fashion where they were to come second by

a long way in a two-horse race then just that pressure those questions over the futures particularly of Brendan McCullum and Rob Key while they will get a little bit louder. So that's what's on the line this week. We had Andrew McDonald saying the Ashes are done. They were just

playing for World Test Championship points that the Ashes was done at 3-0 and he's quite right there is probably more on the line for England this week than there is Australia. Are they going to take a little bit more out of a very very disappointing tour or questions that are being asked of the leadership,

are they going to get louder? Do you think they recognise that within the camp? Do you think the players, the coaches, know the significance this week could hold? I think at the very top level, I think if you've given to one like Rob Key, as the director of cricket, I think he knows the significance of this week.

Richard Gould, the ECB chief executive, he is going to be in Sydney. The England management situation, is complicated by the T20 World Cup that England leave Sydney on the 9th of January I'm trying to get my days right they leave on Friday

and they'll be back going to Sri Lanka I think they've got 10 days at home the multi-format players before they go off and play in that series in Sri Lanka and then go on to the T20 World Cup and obviously Brendan McCullum is in charge of that and I know a lot of people would say well England winning the T20 World Cup

is nothing compared to compared to the performance in the Ashes. What would you say? Like winning the league cup, but getting knocked out in the group stage of the Champions League. I think that's the equivalent that we could make.

But Brendan McCollum has two jobs. He's in charge of the test team and he's in charge of the Whiteball team and his remit in the Whiteball team is to win World Cups. So if he goes and wins the T20 Cup, that is a success. That all has to be taken in the round.

As for the players, I don't know if they're necessarily thinking that managerial jobs are on the line or there's going to be pressure on managers if it doesn't go well here because it's unhealthy to think like that if you're a cricketer. It's unhealthy to go into a test match thinking that this could be my last innings or I might be about to get dropped or whatever. And realistically, I think we could have a pretty good go at naming the number of players

from the England 11 that turns out here that we're playing in the first test match against New Zealand in June. It'll be a good chunk of them. So no, I don't think the players will be thinking that. they'll be thinking that they've got an opportunity to play at the SCG, another chance to perform well in an England shirt, to perform well in an Ash's test and to get a good number next to their name

because after all they'll want to leave here thinking well, I've got positive memories of an Ashes tour or positive final memories at least of an Ashes tour of playing at this wonderful stadium and then that maybe sets them up well going into the home summer and that series against New Zealand. Sitting here in the Test Match Special Commentary Box, looking out at the pitch, which two days out, you could only read so much into it.

But again, there's a healthy covering of grass. There's a tinge of green to it. There is. I mean, to look at the pitch, you've got to get past producer Jack who's got his feet on a chair. You'd never get Peter Baxter doing that, would you, back in the day? But yeah, there is a healthy tinge of grass on it, but it is not as green as it was. So yesterday, New Year's Day when we came here, remember at the start of this series, Henry, when we're in Perth, and the West Australian was talking. The green manber.

Yeah. So it was that. And I don't think it's that at the moment. And it's gradually got less and less green as the two days have worn on. In fact, it's less green now than it was this morning when we turned up for Usman-Kawajers press conference. Forecast is mixed. There's a little bit of rain knocking around in Sydney, as there always is. Over the next few days, England haven't named their team today.

They normally name a team two days out. They've decided not to. Part of the reason for that is because they're training in the afternoon as well. So sometimes when their afternoon training session comes and they haven't looked at the pitch and they just leave it alone and they don't make a decision. I still think the smart money would just be on a straight swap. Matthew Pottsin for Gus Atkinson.

I don't see how England can change the balance of their team. They had a winning formula in Melbourne with Will Jack's batting at 8 and bowling a bit of offspin. Yes, we'll probably see Todd Murphy playing for Australia. As a specialist spinner, interesting earlier on as well, when we watched the Australia training session, Bo Webster was in at Gully. It wasn't Cameron Green.

Cameron Green was feeding one of the assistant coaches to hit some big catches into the outfield. So I don't know if that's a suggestion that Bo Webster's going to come in for Cameron Green. But yeah, what we get from the Sydney surface, well, we'll pay a lot more attention maybe than what we normally do because there was so much attention on the Melbourne pitch, 10 millimetres of grass.

I mean, you were there, Henry, weren't you on what? would have been day three. Have you ever heard such attention on a man being asked about how long he left, how long he left his grass as to the Melbourne curator, Matt Page? I suspect we won't have anything quite like that in Sydney, but it has been green, albeit not quite as green as it has been as it was yesterday. He did say, by the way, Matt Page, that there was more grass on it for the game that England played here four years ago. So the millimeter edge of grass across surfaces in Victoria has never seen quite so much examination. But there we go. It's all part of the narrative of Ashes series. Another part of this Ashes series, Stefan, was the news that we got

this morning. We've explored what Usma Kowager had to say in terms of some of the issues that he's suffered around in Australian cricket during his career. What about Usman Kowager the cricketer because this is going to be his final bow in international cricket and it's been a career really in two halves. Yeah, great survivor actually, isn't he, of Australian test cricket in the way that he was a prodigy, really, who came in and then it didn't work out for him so well at the start. He had to go away and come back. Right now in this Australian squad, there are only two players who played when England last won a test series here. One of them is Steve Smith. The other one is Dusman Cowardius, that tells you how long he's been around for.

And the sort of the late career renaissance that he had, when he came back into the side in the last ashes in this country four years ago, then found himself at the top of the order. In the early part of the 2023 ashes in the UK, it just felt like he was batting forever, didn't it? I think he batted on every day of the first test match at Edgebaston. and he was a huge reason as to why Australia put together a 2-0 lead. He sits 15th at the moment on the all-time list of Australian test run scorers.

If he gets 30 in this test, he'll go to 14th above Mike Hussie and just below Don Bradman. Well, if you're next to Don Bradman in any sort of list, were you pretty happy with that, aren't you? And he was telling us this morning that he grew up after his family moved from Pakistan. Pakistan when he was five years old, that he lived in this area and he saw Michael Slater driving around his red Ferrari and he thought, I want to be a test cricketer. I want to be able to drive whatever car I want. Well, he's done that. And here he is on the ground where he learnt his game, where he played for New South Wales, where he made his test debut, where he made his test come back and where he'll end his test career. I'm sure he'll get a wonderful farewell from the Sydney crowd. Stefan, thank you very much. Indeed, test match special will be live, 1055 on Saturday. evening bringing full ball by ball coverage of the fifth and final men's ashes test match and there is perhaps just a little more riding on it than might appear at first glance don't forget BBC sounds if you subscribe to the TMS podcast you'll be able to find the light such as no balls

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