Test Match Special - The Ashes Preview

Episode Date: November 17, 2025

Steve Crossman is joined by Mark Ramprakash, Jack Leach and Durham's Australian coach Ryan Campbell to look ahead to the opening Test of the Ashes series that begins on Friday in Perth. They will also be joined by Australian journalist Geoff Lemon.They discuss the challenges of touring in Australia, the importance of the opening ball of the series, as well as the relative strengths and weaknesses of the two sides including; the leadership, spinners, pace attacks, and the Aussie top order.Timecodes: 00:03:43 - expectations of the series 00:12:30 - The importance of the first ball of the Ashes 00:18:12 - Touring Australia and the phoney war 00:23:17 - What should England expect in Perth? 00:33:53 - Ben Stokes 00:45:40 - Australia without Cummins and Hazlewood 00:58:38 - Spinners 01:15:51 - England's pace attack 01:25:20 - Australia's top order 01:30:45 - Joe Root

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello there, welcome to the Test Match special podcast. The weight is almost over. Are you ready? You've got this tiny little pot of dust that means so much more because of everything that's gone into it. Convicts versus Mother England, I guess it goes all the way back to that. Butterflies are that much more pronounced when you're playing an Asher series. The stakes are that much higher.

The ashes is something that means a lot to cricketers from both sides. It's still the ultimate. And in comes Pat Cummings from the far-round. He bowls to Stokes, who hammers it for four! The most extraordinary innings ever, ever he played by an Englishman. Shane warned. Off only two or three paces, he bowls, and Gatting is taken on the pace. Bowles.

Harmison comes up and bowls, and Casparovich goes back, and Perry's one as he caught down the left side. There's an appeal for Gatch. England has won by two runs. England was just too good for us in this series and all credit to them Warren Bolter Caddick's 40s hit it straight up in the air

he should be caught by Lehman he's out England out for just 79 Pratchad's not hit them they could have to probably run out a marvellous piece of fielding by Gary Pratt Rawts coming up leading on his bat that looks to me to be edged straight to slip and Alan Dahl's saying not out

and the Australians are furious Lily in rolling now to both of outside the off stamp he hammers this square Now through the covers, a lovely shot. Here's Wittes in. Bowes to Bright. Bright bowed.

The middle stands out of the ground. England have won. They've won by 18 runs. Cook, bowls to Boone again, and Boone does have a go. And he hits the winning run. Australia have taken the test, and I've taken the action. And he drives the ball, and he gets a run, and he gets to 200. That is a wonderful milestone for Kevin Peterson.

Has Tuftall balls around the wicket team, and he steps back and hits that Hard out to the boundary. Mark War has made a century on debut for Australia. Anderson's bold and it's all over. Australia have won magnificently by 405 runs. Australia in England, the Ashes, is the ultimate for us. We feel very lucky and fortunate enough that we're able to be a part of something like that. It's 11 of us for 11 of them.

Yes, yes, yes. That will do it. The 2025 Ashes, the first test in Perth less than four days away 220 Friday morning all gets underway five sports extra and BBC sounds

three years since the basball revolution their toughest test can you win the ashes in Australia victory would be the culmination of the basball project it would immortalise Ben Stokes and this team in English sporting history

but their record in Australia is not good since that 2010-11 victory 15 tests 13 defeats and no wins. This is the ultimate challenge for English cricket and this is our preview programme. With us, we have got England spinner Jack Leach,

part of England's last touring squad to Australia four years ago, scorer of the most famous one not out in Ashes history. We have former England batter mart Ramprakash, 12 Ashes test, part of the coaching set up of course as well to win in 2015 and in the Australian corner. Former Aussie wicketkeeper Ryan Campbell, the head coach at Durham, where of course he has a close eye on Ben Stokes and Mark Wood. Guys, that felt epic.

I'm feeling good. I'm feeling confident, Mark. It can only go downhill from here, yeah? No, I disagree. I think I'm very punchy about England's chances, actually. I have to say. And to be honest with you, history, I don't think counts for much in terms of where the England team are at, where this squad are at.

They've been pretty settled. They're very clear on their identity, how they want to go out and play. And, of course, the opposition, well, they're in absolute disarray, aren't they? Missing their captain, their leader. The opening bowler who sets the tone,

debutant maybe as opening the batting. There's a lot of question marks, a lot of change in that Australian dressing room, and I think England will grab the initiative early and go on to do very well. Ryan, I think Mark's right. I think he is punchy. Just listen to that.

Here we go, yeah. It's all great until someone bowl. the first ball. In all honesty, you should be very confident about, you know, England's chances. They've performed okay, like to a standard where, you know, I would have thought they should have beaten India on home soil, but they played a lot of really, really good cricket. And they've had, you know, a couple of good years where they built a side that they think is purposely built for Australia.

The problem is you haven't won there since two. 2010. That's a long time to not win a game of cricket in Australia. But look, the end of the day, it's going to be a ripping series. But the most important thing, and I think this is the little bit that people forget sometimes. Test cricket is not being spoken enough about around the world. And the ashes gives us a chance to everyone get on their soapbox and talk about the game. My team's going to win. Your team's going to win. I'm going to stay up and watch it or I'm not going to stay up and watch it. But, But, you know, we're talking test cricket, and I think the world needs it. Jack, I'm so here for this. We've got punchy Mark. We've got prideful Ryan. What are you bringing to the table tonight? Because it's feeling like now we're getting underway.

Now we're starting. It's Ash's week. Yeah, I mean, it's so exciting. I think you remember how much chat there is around, especially in a way Ash's series for England. And, yeah, it seems like there's a lot of chat pre-series. And like Ryan said, I think it's just waiting for the cricket to get going. I'm sure as players, they'll be desperate to get going. You know, when there's all the chat and stuff,

I think you're just eager to kind of start that first test. And I'm sure that's the same for both sides. So, yeah, it's going to be epic and I can't wait to watch it. Well, what is that weight like then, Mark? You know, when it's the week of, when we're about to get underway, presumably, and we'll talk about all the noise that goes along with an Ashes series, whether it's in England or Australia. But presumably at this point, you're just like,

please, can we stop talking and start playing? Well, for my own experiences, I have to go all the way back to 1998 when I toured, and we had three first-class games, three four-day matches that we played against very good state side. I think Ryan might have been playing for WA and smacked it everywhere, but we played some really good cricket sides in preparation. But when we went to Brisbane for the first test,

you know, the whole intensity, the whole atmosphere was different. It was very exciting, but there was a nervous energy to it. You're embarking on a five-test tour in Australia. It doesn't get any bigger for an England cricketer than that. And Australia is a fantastic place. tour. I have to say the facilities are fabulous. The grounds are brilliant. The crowds are great. They're noisy and, of course, there's a lot of stick flying around. But that just makes the whole atmosphere all the better. And, you know, if you can live to tell the tale, you know, the climate.

So there's so much to enjoy about touring Australia. But yes, there is some verbals. There's some noise. I remember in 2016-17, when I toured as part of the coaching staff, Nathan Lyon was pretty vocal before the first test about wanting to finish some careers and that role would one or two of our players I mean most of them are fairly phlegmatic but nevertheless you know it's just part of the

rhetoric that can get said before the series that can just needle and chip away at people and if you can gain any sort of psychological edge then you know they try and do it Ryan do you remember your efforts in that game with the bat thanks for bringing

at half. I got 146. Well, what did you get in the first innings? I got knocked over cleaners a whistle, I reckon. Very early on. LBW, goff for one. Yeah. The green wacker. Do you want to focus on the 146?

Yeah, let's talk about the good, mate. The good, good, good. But, you know, the funny thing is, like, as state plays, and I know you guys, I'm sure we'll probably, you know, there'll be questions about preparation and all that. And to be honest, England's preparation doesn't bother me whatsoever.

But in the past, the Australians, from an Australian viewpoint, when the England landed on our shores, and generally it used to be the Festival of Cricket at Lollah Kill, they used to play a game there, and then they'd play W.A. I mean, our job was to try and absolutely belt the crap out of England and to make sure that they got off the plane and thought to themselves, all right, and this is just the state team. But that was a part of, you know, growing up in Australia of the states.

you can say there's nothing on it, but the facts where there always was, because we all felt we had a job to do and to help and play our small part, so to speak. So, look, it's, like I say, I think the preparation of England is exactly what they wanted, and that's the thing. It's what they think is needed. And again, I reckon it's probably the most important bit is the next three days, because for the first time they actually train at the stadium, and that's where the wickets are very similar to what's going to be out in the middle. because let me promise you, Lillac Hill ain't anything like the stadium

because it's as flat as anything, whereas once you get in the stadium, it's a whole different beast. So, yeah, I think the most important part for England will be the next three or four days. Mark, I feel like it's totally legit just to have another couple words on preparation. But at that point, I think we'll just dive into the excitement of the ashes. What I suppose this does tell you,

all the discussion around preparation or lack thereof, it just highlights all of the scrutiny which is just dialed up to a thousand as soon as you arrive for an Ashes tour. It is absolutely and look I think it's a legitimate point of discussion and you had some greats of English cricket Ian Botham, Graham Gooch and Michael Vaughn

and they're going to give their opinion and that's what they're paid to do. That's no problem. You know, Ben Stokes understands that. That's the landscape that they're in. Look, it is different. I mean, even from the tour that I mentioned eight years ago, you know,

there is chalk and cheese, but there's so much difference between what the preparation was then, eight years ago and what it's been now. So I mentioned that there were three first class games that England played. Now, you know, the players felt that, okay, some of the pitches were quite flat and some of the sides didn't possess the pace that the test side were going to have, i.e. Cummins, Stark and Hazard, okay, fine. But as Zach Crawley mentioned in his interview at the end of the day when he got 80-od. He said, look, it's runs in the middle. And you know as a batsman,

you've got to get your match head on when you go into a match. If you skim one in the nets to cover or backward point, it doesn't matter, no one notices. You do it in a game, and you have to walk off the pitch. There's a consequence. So you need to get your match head on.

The bowlers need to look for their rhythm in their run-ups. They need to keep their foot behind the line. They've got to stand in the field. So that's what match practice is all about. And I think that the great players were just trying to point that out. I think to play Australian opposition is preferable. Look, Ben's right.

The games moved on and the scheduling was tricky and the guys were over, the ODI squad were over in New Zealand. So it may not have been easy. I think personally that they could have done with a first class game against Australian opposition. The England captain used a phrase, balls to the wall.

I don't think I've heard an England captain use that expression before, quite frankly. I'm not sure quite whether that happened or not, but we know that the intensity dropped post-T certainly on the first two days. And so I'm not sure it came across a bit like a training match. There were some good things that came out of it clearly,

like the over's under the belt for the bowlers, but, you know, it just had the feel of a bit of a glorified middle practice. Right then, Jack, let's move on to the start of a series then, ball one of the ashes, which has taken on almost like a life of its own because there are actually a long list of really dramatic first balls that we've had. And obviously people will immediately think to Steve Harmeson at the Gabra in 2006 and his first ball being taken at slip. Michael Slater hits Phil DeFraters for four in 94.

Rory Burns, bold first ball in Brisbane. Zach Crawley, I was there for that. That four first ball off Pat Cummins in 2023. Basbole's kind of first ashes appearance. You were there for the Rory Burns one, weren't you? I mean, what is the atmosphere like for a first ball at the ashes? Yeah, I mean, I was walking from the changing room to the seating area, and the changing rooms are underneath the ground, really.

And so I was walking through, and I just heard this massive eruption, and the seats, like, banging above me, and I thought, oh, no. Is this a sign of things to come? And I remember having that sinking feeling, thinking this is going to be tough. So, yeah, I mean, I do feel like getting off to a good start does play its part. Obviously, you know, it's not going to decide the series. But I think momentum is a big thing. And obviously, even in, you know, we haven't even bowled a ball yet.

And, you know, you're waking up to news of Hazelwood or Woody being fit. And it feels like a bit of momentum. So it's, yeah, it's going to be fascinating to see what happens on that first ball and that first day. Ryan, it's fascinating that idea of that sinking feeling that can happen from the very first ball of a series. It just carries, well, it carries the weight of history, doesn't it? Anybody who's involved in that ball knows in the back of their mind, whether they're bowling or batting, what happens in the next few seconds might be remembered forever. Well, it's funny because I look at it two ways now.

As a player, I used to open the batting with Mike Hussie and refused to face the first ball just for that reason. Because I didn't want to get out first ball because I was a bit known for getting caught a deep third man or something stupid off the first one. So I refused. But as a coach, I got to try and play the whole calmness. Come on, it's just another ball. Whatever happens, happens, blah, blah. But, yeah, there is something. You know, you think to yourself, if you lose a wicket on the first ball, it's like, oh, geez.

Should we have batted first or should we should have bowed first? I knew we should have bowed first. So you start to have mental sort of tricks on your mind. But like I say, there's a whole different host of emotions, especially as a coach. It's kind of, okay, stay calm. Don't let on that you are now absolutely in no man's land. But as a player, I just think, you know what, it's one ball. If you get out, you get out, I guess.

It's, you know, the bowler is trying to bowl his very best ball. he's trying to set the tone. I don't know how many times you've heard the old thing whether you go out in the ring. First over, we've got to set the tone. We've got to set the tone. So everyone's trying to set the tone. I guess it's just about who can do it best.

I guess, Mark, it's about controlling your emotions, whatever you're doing. Yeah, and the great players do that really well. So, for example, Alistair Cook, you know, comes to mind a great player who was never going to get flustered by the occasion, you know, outwardly anyway. He always seemed in control of his emotions. and went out and played the game he wanted to play.

Of course, Michael Slater, I remember that shot. I remember watching it. And Michael, he used to play that way. You know, he used to, you know, take it on. And the adrenaline was flowing, and those guys feed off that energy, and they tend to be quite aggressive. So they're tricky to bowl up, but they give you a chance.

Someone like an Alastair Cook may, you know, he might leave all six balls in the first over. You know, such is his temperament to want to play the long game. back his concentration, back his defensive technique and look to play along innings. There's a great quote which I've got to read from Steve Harmeson's book all about that first ball in 2006. He writes, I'm stood at the top of my mark

and I'm feeling the heat. Not so much the heat of the sun, rather the heat of expectation. The hype leading up to this moment has been a never-ending storm of craziness and I'm right in the eye. The ball is in my hand. It's up to me to bowl the first deliver

of an Ashes series that's been talked up and pontificated over since I bowled the final ball of the last one. So that, Jack, is just a great indication of what would be going through one's mind at that moment. Yeah, definitely. And I guess that's the job of Baz and Stokesy for England to kind of get those guys in the right mindset. They'll be looking to put the pressure on Australia,

whether they're batting or bowling first, you know, straight away try and put that pressure on them so I think as players if you're looking to to do something positive in the game rather than survive the first over or not go for a boundary in the first over you know that that's going to be quite a negative place to be whereas if you're kind of looking to make an impact in the game that's what what they've wanted and it's trying to realize that even though it is a big series you know this is it's just another game in cricket it and those guys are ready for that and that's what Baz and Stokes will be trying to make those guys believe for that first first ball.

I think we should talk about the kind of the phony war, which sort of ends at the first ball of the ashes, but also sort of doesn't, because whatever happens after it then becomes the new story. But like at the moment, you've had the Channel 10 cameras in Australia were filming Ben Stokes and Joe Ruch as playing golf. Western Australian newspaper had pictures of sorts of social. Stokes when he arrived in Perth, front page describes him as cocky captain complainer. I mean, it is never-ending, Ryan, isn't it?

And I think it is unique to Australia. Is that fair? No, no, no, no, no, no, he's up, he's up here, mate. You think where is bad? We grew up with the English tabloids. You guys were the ones that we thought were terrible. I got to admit, though, I actually saw the West Australian. Obviously, I'm a Perth boy, and I saw those comments or the front page,

And I actually text a lot of my mates going, I know I haven't lived at home for a while, but is this what the West has become? And, you know, change of ownership, and it's all about clickbait now, they tell me, and it's all about all the young kids, you know, logging on and things like that. But I looked up that journalist.

I don't think he's actually a cricket journalist, the bloke that wrote the front page. So, yeah, it's all fun and game. But again, I got a bit, you know, shirty about it because I didn't, I want W.A. You know, put on a good show. and I don't want that stuff and I'm also a bit

you know I'm in my old age and an English bloke sort of you know looking after Stokes and cars and pots and woods

so a little bit you know I want them to do well but you guys to lose but you know I saw that and I just I just thought to myself

you know what just take a step for a minute step back cricket is on the front page and the back page of the newspaper that doesn't happen

too often in Australia it's always at the back page don't get me wrong but very rarely do you get cricket on the front page of our papers and mate that's what the ashes brings that's what i mean that's the hype that comes with it and um you know i've no doubt everyone i think everyone's a bit different now like social media's giving everyone a platform everyone wants to say something smart or take a photo of this bloke or that bloke and i think a lot of it is got to take with a pinch

of salt you um you missed one thing out there though i think ryan when you were talking about the reasons you weren't too happy with it surely one of them is that and jack will be able to tell us more about this in a moment but surely one of them is the fact that you will know ryan how that kind of thing is likely to impact ben stokes and isn't the point that it's not going to be good for australia that right there's two blokes that you wouldn't have i wouldn't have a crack at exactly that's ben stokes and jo root those two are the carmess and guys that take it on board and they're going to give it back in spades. I was thinking, geez, at least pick your targets a bit better.

Come on. You know, I don't think that guy knew anyone else's name. That was a problem. I imagine, Jack, then. So, I mean, obviously, you know these guys inside out. Of that whole side, is Ben Stokes the one who would be the worst person to target in terms of the knock-on effect on what he can do to you, if you see what I mean? yeah I would say Stokes I remember in 2019 at Headingley when he obviously played that amazing innings and the night before he came off and he was six off 60 balls or something and Warner had been going at him and he said in the dressing room that night he said I'm not walking off that pitch until we've won the game and he was really fired up and I was like wow that's a big call with so many runs needed and then obviously

ended up doing it so yeah I thought wow this guy means business when he says something he means it so yeah he probably would be number one

where's Joe on that list out of interest because he's obviously he doesn't have that same character but that doesn't mean that he won't feel the same fire you just might not see it as much yeah definitely I think

look at the amount of runs he scored you know have a lot about you as a person to kind of go through what he's gone through in his career and the highs that he's had and how hard he's had to work for them. So I think he does it in maybe

a quieter way. But I would I think he's pretty deep down. He's pretty motivated for this. And yeah, it's obviously a lot of chat about the fact that he's never scored 100 in Australia. So I feel like he's going into it with a lot to prove.

And I do feel like his game has under Baz and Stokes, leadership has come on again so it's going to be really interesting to see how he fares over there this time so we've we've nicely kind of touched lightly on just a few of the figures that we're going to go in depth on Ben Stokes Joe Root Nathan Lyon and the list goes on and on I think we should just do Perth now though Ryan and this is you know this is your city right isn't it so what what should England expect in all senses the greatest beaches in the world that's for one I sent Cassie out with a mate today to go fishing,

so he had a good time. Saw his first shark, which, yeah, don't go swimming too many places. Unless you're between the flags, otherwise you might lose a couple of your players. But look, at the end of the day, Perth, the wicket, is as unique as any wicket in the world. It's not like anywhere in the world. And the stadium is a drop-in pitch.

But what they did was they found some clay, which we hadn't found for a long, time and it's basically the old whack of clay but they found the new stuff basically and they've built these drop in pitches that bounce incredible amounts and that's the thing so as a bowler you might think and this is going to be the test for england as a bowler you think you see the bounce and you think oh this is exciting and you start bowling too short you actually have to bowl full in Perth because people will drive at lengths that are not quite right but the facts are it is different to anywhere else and that's where the true test is you and that's why I say to you the preparation

these three days or whatever many times they're going to train they have to be in the nets you have to understand it because you know I took unfortunately I took the Dutch lads at the World Cup you know to Perth and we played Pakistan and I kept trying to tell them it's the best the greatest place in the world to bat because you can trust the bounds, blah, blah, blah, and I'm thinking to myself, these guys are going to die. You know, they're going to face 150 kilometres hours after coming off mats and all that, and they

pretty much did, but it was true. That was a good team talk. Yeah, no, it was a great team talk. But it's true. Once you get in, it is a fantastic place to bat. And that's where, I guess, you guys love calling it

Basbo, whatever it is, the aggressive approach that England take That's where in Australia, and especially in Perth, the first 10 to 20 balls are the most important of your life. If you can get through those 20 balls, you get to understand it a bit more, and then the runs will flow. Don't get me wrong, it'll start to happen. And if Australia drop a bloke back like they did on that first ball of those, that test match all those times ago, mate, you can't cover the gaps. The ground is so big that it creates more scoring opportunities.

So, yeah, my interesting thing for me will be the first 20 balls to every single English batter. And the other one is, when they take on the pull shot or the hook shot, if they're not in control, at most places, it goes for six. Mate, the Perth Stadium is massive. It's an AFL ground. It's a footy ground. It is the biggest ground in Australia. So if you're not quite getting it, you're going to be out.

Not six by 27 rows back. would have thought. So yeah, that's the other interesting one for me. But I hope the lads are actually enjoying themselves in Perth. All the Lions lads are there too. So it is a wonderful place to visit. I mean, that sounds like a lot of fun, Mark, I've got to say. Well, Perth is a great city. I was very lucky. I went and played there in 96 for the University of Perth in the grade competition and I absolutely loved it. It is a fabulous place. The climate was wonderful. As I said, the facilities were fantastic. I mean, we at the wacker, it was alarming

that the amount that the ball bounced to some degree. When you first went in the first couple of times, you know, you had some big boys, six foot five bowlers and suddenly the ball is bouncing from an area which normally you play comfortably. And so

England are going to have to adapt. It's not necessarily something they like doing. They want to go hard and be aggressive. But if you think about, I mean, Zach Crawley of course has been selected for this very reason that he played the ball above the waist. His statistics are outstanding. And so we let's hope that, you know, he can produce because this is pretty much why England have stuck with him and he's played well

against Australia before. Joe Root has got to be a little bit careful of that backfoot punch, which is an English shot, English shot, you know, probably on slower, lower wickets that he likes to force through the offside, but he's going to have to be really clinical around that fourth dump, fifth dump area, which normally Hazelwood would be probing. But I don't know who's going to do that for Australia now. but he's going to have to watch that area because he likes to play away from his body and sometimes run the ball down to third man.

Brooke is an interesting one because, you know, from all reports in the practice game, you know, he faced 16 balls. Every ball was an event. Had a couple of run-down the wickets and a scoop and all sorts. So he can be a little skittish at times. And Australia roughed him up at Lords. He has got out to the pool shot a little bit.

He will be tested, I think. But if he comes through that, he's got the game to take the, the sort of innings or to take the initiative for England. So all these guys are going to have to go about. They're going to have to find their own way about how they're going to counter the bounce in those first 20 to 30 balls of their innings. And I think once they do that, then absolutely if they adjust,

they can enjoy themselves batting on the pit. The light will be great. You know, it would be fantastic whether you can see the ball really well and you can enjoy playing your cut and pull shots as long as you just, you know, get the hang of that extra bounce. Jack, how much notice do you think Ben Stokes will pay to the fact that, and you've got to win the toss for this to matter, clearly, but five tests played at that new stadium,

all the teams that won the toss, back first and won. Is he going to be bothered about that? Is he going to think about that? Because it's not necessarily in his nature to do that. I hope he's bothered about that. That's quite a good stat, in it five and five. But I guess it depends on various things. of weather

but I imagine the Perth weather is pretty consistent and it's going to be hot for five days but yeah I'd imagine he'd want to have a bat with those stats

but I don't know what do you think I have to say I felt it was much more important to go out and look at the wicket two days beforehand a day and then on the morning in the game and you play

what's in front of you so you know if Ben Stokes feels that there's a little bit of moisture in there you know he's not afraid to have a bowl and let his fast bowlers lose he'll have every confidence in that attack

I mean, I think Brideon Carlson are excellent bowlers and if Archer should join them and Ben himself, let's not forget. So I think if he feels that there's a little moisture in there and he wants to take advantage of that first up, he won't be afraid to do it. And I don't mind that because I think you play what's in front of you on the morning of the game, what the conditions are like.

And then, you know, this is such as the way, the clarity that England have about the way they want to go about their business. You know, once that decision is made, they're all in. They're going to be right behind the captain and they'll make it work. Yeah, he doesn't strike me, Ryan, as a man who will be told what to do by anybody else. I mean, as coach, you could probably answer that question better than anybody. Yeah, yeah. If you come up with a good theory, as long as you present your facts, so to speak. But yeah, it's an interesting one because, you know, I just said a minute ago those first two hours are going to be really tough.

but my next point was going to be but if you got some courage you need to bat first in Perth because because of the nature of the drop-in wicket it actually does start to go up and down towards day three four and five and now again I'm not a stats person I got a bloke

who does all that for me and hands it to me but I would have thought Nathan Lyons numbers in some of those test wins in Perth on the stadium are very very good because he likes the bounce of it and it does start to spin later on in the game so and throw into the fact that, again, apart from us being brought up, not liking England,

we're brought up, we bat first. We look at the wicket and we don't care, we're going to bat first. Generally, that's how we play our cricket. We bat first. We control the game and then we try and bowl you out in the last day with a good spinner. I know that's a bit generic, but that's generally what Australia like to do. So whoever wins the toss, yeah, it's going to be an interesting one because, like you say, Stokes loves to chase and you know what if they play Will Jacks as the spinner you know now what they're going to do they're going to they have to bat last and they have to chase that almost gives it away I would have thought

29 wickets for for Nathan Lyon five tests average of 20 at Perth by the way I thought it was pretty good yeah not bad I'm going to stop doing numbers soon because I started this hour and you heard me jack I mean, I was right up there, right up there. Now we've just done Nathan Lyons numbers at Perth. Now I'm going to mention the fact that day-night tests for Australia, 112 lost one in Australia, day-nighter at the Gabber, second test, which probably we would have spoken about a lot more if it wasn't for the kind of the intrigue of starting in Perth. But, you know, Mitchell Stark, Pink Ball, absolutely phenomenal.

I mean, that is some spectacle. two of my memories from the last series over there was how difficult a start gabber was and the pink ball test how difficult that was against stark so they're kind of bringing those together i don't know if that's a positive for england because actually you can only lose one um once against the pink ball and gabber yeah um slightly negative way of looking at it but um that'll be an amazing is it ever been have they ever had one a pink ball game at the Gabba? No.

No. So, yeah, it's going to be quality to watch that. And yeah, I'm excited to see what the pink ball does in that twilight period at Brisbane because it does enough most of the time. Yeah, I mean, all five tests, obviously we could talk about them all and the cities and the stadiums, but those two in particular, absolutely mouth-watering. We're going to talk about leadership. We'll do the pace attack.

We're going to do more. Nathan Lyon. We'll also talk Josh Hazelwood as well, of course. Let's talk Ben Stokes then, and you all know him. You've all worked with him in such different ways, which makes the discussion all the more interesting. Jack obviously played with him. He's been your captain, Mark from working with him at England and Ryan as his coach. So, first things first, Ryan, and this is one that really only you are qualified to answer, will Australia target him because he's England captain and whoever is England captain

you must target. They'll target him as in try and knock him over with the bat I would have thought and I think they'll target him because he's the best player and that's no disrespect to anyone else but Ben Stokes changes the whole of England

if he gets injured early which I hope he doesn't because I want to see the best players playing in a great test series England's side changes dramatically and although So it might be the fact that Will Jacks is on tour. Maybe that's the reasoning behind that for, I guess, a similar all-round of type.

But, you know, the facts are Ben Stokes as a cricketer. I've been asked this a couple of times, and I've said the same thing. I was lucky enough to play in a time of a golden era in Australian cricket. And I played with some of the greatest of WAs in Mike Hussey, Justin Langer, and Damien Martin and Adam Gilchrist. Those four blokes were the hardest working guys I've ever seen. You know, I'll admit it, I was a bit lazy. I was a bit, you know, carefree and casual and this, that and the other.

But those four blokes put themselves through hell and back to prepare for test cricket. Ben Stokes works harder than them. Wow. And that to me is like, whoa, you know, the injuries are well documented. But what you don't see is I remember when he had that, I think the second hamstring surgery, I walked past our gym, I think it was two days later, and there's a bloke sitting in the corner doing somebody

bicep pull-downs or something, and I thought, that can't be. And I literally walked in and said, what the hell are you doing in here? He goes, mate, starts now. And off he went. And he just started working and working. And, you know, I see what he puts his body,

through to try and be prepared to do a role that is let's all agree you know i'm a wiki i'm always going to say the wiki's a tougher spot but let's be honest batters and spinners just they just rock up and bowl you know for a couple of steps they're pretty easy but let's be honest bowling fast and batting and being in you know a gunfield and i mate they all rounders are the hardest job to be it's why everyone would pay a million bucks for them i would go out and you know spend you talk about value for money, they're it. And that's why we always talk about. That's why England treasure Andrew Flintoff. They treasure Ian Botham. It's why Australia treasure Andrew Flintoff and Ian Both, because we think they're awesome. You know, we haven't really needed one of late

or in the 90s throughout the 2000, because we had four great bowls. We didn't need an all-rounder because warning would either get you out or McGraw would get you out. It was pretty easy. But that drew genuine all-rounder is it changes teams it's why Australia will do move heaven and earth to make sure Cameron Green plays in these test matches as long as he's bowling he changes us as well and he'll bat at number six and he'll bowl he bowled well in the he bowled what eight overs in each innings at the last game at the whacker and look like he bowed quite fast mate can't buy them off a shelf so

yeah my my honest hand-on heart the hardest working guys I've ever seen in a cricket shed. Do you think that Ben Stokes might come to be viewed in Australia in the same way then as some of those absolute grits that you've just mentioned? Mate, he's a Kiwi, so we would adopt him because he's, you know, Russell Crow and in excess, and I know, split ends, though, for the Kiwis. Isn't your country big enough just to claim your own? I think Farlet was New Zealand horse, but we claimed that as well.

But, you know, in all honesty, if you're at a pub, right, Take the jesting aside We've all done it We've had a beer And you know I say I'm a better football manager And Pep Guadiole Even though I don't even know

I call it soccer And I don't even know what it's about But you know I've had a couple And I think I'm better than him But When people in Australia Hand on heart

When they start to talk about Ben Stokes They'll go Ah yeah This way way But then they'll all say Wouldn't he be cool If he was an Aussie

And that's the ultimate I guess accolade From an Australian When they start looking and the opposition go, geez, he could be Aussie. You know, he's that one. And because I think there is a true respect of that man of what he does and how he plays the game.

That Jack Leach is the ultimate compliment, isn't it? Yeah, no, definitely, especially those four guys you mentioned. And, yeah, I think I would back that up massively the last few years. I think he's been through some tough injuries, and I think that's made him. sort of really focusing on his fitness and you know he's always been the hardest worker in terms of in the nets and I think it's an understanding where he knows where he's going to take his mind to in the game and how much he's going to put his body through because of that so there's that

understanding that he needs to prep in the right way and yeah I think the last the last few years he's been an absolute beast and yeah he he has gone to different levels with that and yeah it's just great i think when you see your leader kind of finding new ways to to get better and um when you're already that good and i think it kind of if you're another if you're sort of in his team and playing under him you sort of think well if he's good doing that then you know we all need to step up and and and try and get better as well So, yeah, he's a brilliant, brilliant leader to kind of play under. I think, Mark, there's also an interesting question here around that physique of Ben Stokes.

And what I mean by that is, you know, the first time I saw Erling Harland in person, nothing can kind of prepare you for that. You know he's a big guy, but when you see him in person, it's striking. Even someone like Antoine DuPont, who obviously doesn't. have that tall physical stature. He has that broadness. You can't really get a proper appreciation for it without seeing him in person. Is that also true of Ben Stokes? Do you kind of have to be up close to realize the kind of specimen that he actually is physically? Well, he's not Anthony's Joshua. That is for sure. But it wouldn't help him if he was, though, would he? No, well, it might

help his bowling, because Anthony's Joshua's quite tall. But, um, he's, he's, he's, he's, I think, look, as hard as he works, he has to work hard because he's not as robust as perhaps some other bowlers. And why I say that is because he's had some serious injuries. So he's had to work really hard, and it's a credit to his attitude that he's worked so hard to get back fit. But somebody needs to keep an eye on him because he likes to bowl these long spells

when the ball's not doing too much, and he can pay the price. And I absolutely agree with Ryan, you know, look, if Ben Stokes plays these five tests, I think England win, and I think they win quite comfortably. But he does balance the side. And if he's not there, then there is a little bit, there is a vacuum quite clearly. I mean, my journey with Ben started on an England A tour way back about 2013. Ben was a young man, and we went to Australia on a one day tour, and Ben only lasted two days. He came back from a night out in the early hours, and it got back to that.

management and he was sent home but you know he um also has got his first test hundred in perth came back you know uh with the first team um and he's he's always had uh this competitive attitude throughout his whole career he's always backed himself uh in a sort of an unenglish way i suppose you could say um and he's been through so many experiences personally i mean that he actually missed the ashes trip that i did as a coach because of the uh uh Bristol nightclub incident and but you know and the public humiliation of that

and everything he went through emotionally and when he came back you know it took him a while to find his feet again but because he realised he was so lucky to be playing international cricket and it had almost been taken away from him I think those experiences as a bloke

have given him great empathy now he's in this leadership role and he has been doing wonderfully well as a leader for a number of years his teammates really he seems to connect with them he seems to really connect with his teammates he knows how difficult he is to be up at an international cricket he knows what the schedules like how the margins between success and failure are so tight

and he gives them his full backing and he's got great empathy to understand the ups and downs and you know if he is not playing even if he's in the dressing room but if he's not playing out in the middle to make those decisions, to know when to back his bowlers, to when to attack, you know, maybe when to consolidate. You know, that is a massive vacuum for England. Last one on Ben Stokes, then, Ryan, I just want to double check that you second what Mark said

if he plays all five Ashes test, then England win comfortably. Mate, I think if he plays all five, then, you know, you reduce the defeat by at least one. Welcome to Terlenders. I'm Greg James. He's Felix White. Hello. And that is England's greatest. ever bowler Jimmy Anderson. Hello!

We've finally got our break on BBC iPlay. It's lovely to be here. England Hammond won a test match in Australia since the 2010-2011 series, which is a long time ago. Give us a few reasons as to why it's so difficult. The wickets are different, the ball's different and the heat as well. The media coverage over there is so much bigger than a test series in England, for example. And cricket over there is huge. Plus, Australia are amazing in their own country. Tail Enders. Watch on eye player. Listen. On BBC Sounds

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live Still with us we've got England Spinner Jack Leach We've got former England battermark Ramprakash former Aussie wicketkeeper Ryan Campbell as well And just because we didn't want Ryan to feel outnumbered Let's bring in Australian cricket writer Jeff Lemon Hello Jeff

Good evening How are we? All good Getting ready I think we're winding up, limbering up It's going to be a long few weeks ahead So you've got to make sure that the aches and pains are all taken care of before you get going. Well, you're only limbering up. We're an hour in.

So we're right in the middle of our first spell. We're a loving life. You just joined us, Jeff, at the perfect time, actually, because we've just been talking about England, pace bowling, England leadership. And we're now going to get onto Australia through the same means. So we'll talk about Josh Hazelwood being out and his injury in a second. But, of course, one thing that we do know, which is relevant to both leadership, and the Australian bowling attack is the lack of Pat Cummins.

So Cummins being out is obviously was always going to be an issue, Jeff. Does the absence of Hazelwood, though, that kind of exacerbates it, doesn't it? It multiplies it by such a number. Maybe it's logarithmic. I don't know. The mathematicians out there can tell me it's exponential, I think, because losing one of the main three fast bowlers, whoever it may be is a big deal you know cummins the plan was always that he would still be

around the squad so he'd be there in person to help him with the kind of off-field stuff and to give off-field leadership as a captain in waiting as it were you know waiting to come back to the main job but two of the three you know the Australia have dealt with with losing one of those three bowlers relatively often when they've needed to Scott bollards filled in without any problems as recently of taking a hat trick in Jamaica not that long ago. So that hasn't been an issue. But when you've lost them both and you've lost Cummins and Hazelwood, the two right armours, the ones whose job it is to maintain control, and Mitchell Stark's quite a different kind of bowler, you know, very successful bowler at the other end. But you've lost the two who are

closer in terms of style, I suppose. They've both gone. And then you've got Scott Boland having to step up to, you know, not being the third replacement, but being the second, you know, whether he takes a new ball and it will be interesting, and potentially a debut player in Brendan Doggett. It's a massive gift in the power structure. Jeff, where are you? I'm in Perth at the moment. What time is it in Perth? It is 10 past 4 in the morning.

Are you mad? Yeah, we're kind of. Jeff, I love it. I would never have known. You are, have you been to sleep? Are you going to sleep? What's the plan? Yeah. I have been and I plan to go again. But at the moment. Jeff, what a guy. Everything's all over the place. The time zones are weird. I only got here a couple of days ago. Actually came from London, which was freezing and miserable. So I'm happy to be here, whether I'm awake at 4 a.m. or not. Yeah, fair point. Manchester, very much the same at the moment. Well, Jeff's already player of the match for the first test, just based on that, I think.

I feel like we should go in Jack on Hazelwood here because it is the newsiest thing and you actually said right at the top of the shop you know there won't be any kind of from the England camp any sort of yeah well you know Australia is still a very dangerous side they will very openly be well celebrating this as much as you can for a you know a fellow professional who's got an injury if you know what I mean

yeah I don't know about celebrating yeah it's probably the wrong word Yeah, I think as fellow professionals, you never want to see other guys get injured because you know how it feels. So I think they probably understand that, you know, if we were to lose two of our best bowlers, then that would have a big effect on the team. So yeah, a lot of those batters have faced those two and had their struggles against them. That's got to be a good thing, I guess. But yeah, I think there's also, knowing Ben Stokes and Baz, they love entertaining cricket,

and I think they love the thought of two really good teams going up against each other. So, you know, I think Stokes in particular would probably be wanting to face like a full Australian full strength side. But yeah, I think the individuals in that team will be probably feeling, good but then I think always there's like an international cricketer you know you've got to be on your game that it doesn't guarantee anything so you have to be on it and you can't really think about those things too much yeah and look I suppose mark it always depends on the

severity of an injury but there's you know it's it's pointless to pretend isn't it that it's anything other than a boost for England of course it is it's a huge boost no question about it and you know everyone always talks about how important the first test is of a five test series away from home and the touring side will want to get off to a good start get some momentum build some confidence and they have the opportunity to do that unquestionably i mean don't get me wrong obviously these are very good cricketers that australia have brought in but the fact is is that their first choice this big four bowling attack that have been together for so long and have been hugely successful you know two of them are missing and what that does is put a lot of

pressure on the seamers, because if they go at four, five and over, then Lath and Lyon's role in the side is not quite the same when you're coming on and the batters are feeling their way a little bit against a really good pace attack, they can play a bit differently, but, you know, it could well be that England have got some momentum in their innings, and they're looking to, you know, to keep that going against Lyon. I think they'll be very positive against him. So, you know, the whole dynamic changes. England have got a lot of test matches in their side. They're pretty settled team. You know, I mean, 9, 10, 11, 9 or 10 of the guys are pretty much fixed in the side.

You look around that dressing room, England will feel confident and familiar with their teammates. Australia, anything but, you know, they've got the opener potentially to come in, batter, opening batter. Steve Smith has got a hell of a job on his hands as a leader to pull this group together very, very quickly. You know, yes, they're playing at home, but the fact is as a group, they haven't gelled. And, you know, the roles in the bowling attack are so important. Hazelwood was, if I go back, was like a McGrath. I compare him to a McGrath.

Six foot five, accurate bowls long spells, you know, gives you nothing. What an asset as a captain to have that. And then to take that away is a huge, huge blow. Because all captains like control. They like bowlers that give you control. And, you know, Hazelwood, I mean, look, he also, I mean, they'll need him back because I think he can bowl very well with the pink ball as well.

So, you know, from an Australian point of view, they'll be hoping it's just the one game. On Steve Smith then, Jeff, and look, I've absolutely no interest in getting into a discussion about Sandpaper Gate. I'm sure none of us do. But I am kind of interested to know, because in terms of his numbers,

he actually has a better average as captain than when not captain since, you know, 20-1 and when he's taken over as the end. interim captain whenever Pat comes isn't away. So that's incredibly impressive. But just in the role in general, in like the post-Sand-Papergate world, how is he sort of viewed when he hears captain? Yeah, it's an interesting one.

I mean, there's a book on Sandpaper Gate. If people want to go and read it, I wrote it. What's it called? I don't need to tell you about it now. Steve Smith's men. There you go. It's the name of that. It's an interesting one.

I think for the most part, you know, there are some people who, who are still exercised by this but from an australian perspective he's had his penalties to that he had his his his time in the sin bin and he's been yelled at enough and people generally generally seem to think well it's time to let it slide by and recognize that that's a long time ago it's seven years back now you know there's a cohort of people who will tell you loudly but he should never play for a strategy again and so on but for the the most part, you know, the penalties were handed out and they were served and they were pretty heavy at the time. So, and Steve Smith now is a very different kind of person. I think he's

a lot, obviously, being that much older, he was a very immature captain and perhaps shouldn't have been considered for captaincy in the first place because, you know, he had a tendency to just do what people around him told him he should do. He would reflect whoever was in front of him, whereas these days he's less obsessive about his cricket, he stops batting for a month or two at a time when he's got time away from the game. He generally just seems to have a more balanced outlook on life that not everything is about this complete hyper-focus on batting,

which essentially stopped him from being able to perform adequately as a leader. And these days he's much more relaxed in his approach to it and he takes these temporary jobs as they are, you know, a job to do until Pat Cummins comes back. And whether that's one test or five test, I think he'll have a lot more equanimity approaching it this time around. Okay, so Ryan, the thing that links all of this together then, so you've got no come-ins, so Smith gets the captaincy,

but also you've got the fact that obviously Cummins and Hazelwood don't play at all. So therefore you've got opportunities for Scott Boland and Brendan Doggett. And Doggett is someone you can give us some really interesting insight. because, of course, he played for Durham. We had both of them, actually, Doggett and Bowling. Oh, of course you did, yeah. We broke them both. Right.

So, yeah, we've been great. It's been fantastic. But, look, I think that they're both outstanding bowlers. The facts are that, you know, people are saying, well, Doggett, he's 31. He hasn't debuted and all that. But, you know, we've seen history show Mike Hussey debuted at 30. I think my old mate Marcus North debuted late. Adam Vogue just debuted late.

And I know they're batters, but the facts are that Brendan had his injury concerns early on in his career, and he's bounced back and he's had consistent shield contributions over the last few years. And he knows his game now. And he's also a very laid-back character. Like, I know Australians, everyone thinks, we're all laid-back. But then there's really laid-back, the poor rifle kind of ones. Generally country boys who are, you know, they take everything in their stride. And yes, he's going to be nervous.

Don't get me wrong. But I think Brendan is one of those guys who's just going to take it in his stride. He knows his job. He knows what he has to do. And I just feel that there's a lot said, don't get me wrong. Do I want Hazelwood and Cummins in my team? Of course we do. But what happens if Australia get through the first test if they win?

and then suddenly Cummins and Hazelwood are available are you going to tell me that England couldn't beat Australia without their best two let alone when they come back that's the concern for England don't you know miss the mark there they have to win when those two are out because if everyone comes back

and then it's a real contest and yeah I think it's a great opportunity for both especially Scotty Boland because let's be honest here mate he's getting I don't want to say old in the tooth but you know he's been a backup for so long he's been he's been a

the guy that has been the one who's always there it's almost a little bit like um yeah nessa was always 12th man it was it was bickle in my time always 12th man for Australia but they had such a great attack never quite got in it so this ashes tour

is the greatest opportunity for Scotty Bowling because, mate, when Australia starts to look to the next bit, because let's be honest, for two and a half years, England have recreated their team. They were really, not really bad, but they were pretty bad, two and a half, three years ago. They weren't anywhere in the world championship title race. McCollum comes in and he changes things.

A little bit of different personnel. They didn't have to go from Scotland. scratch, but they've changed the whole way they wanted to play, but they've brought in different people. And they've been able to invest time in those sort of guys. But in the same period, Australia have been the number one. They've won the World Test Championship. Then they lost the World Test Championship. They've won World Cup in the White Ball format. So they've been on the top of the mountain for a period of time. When you're at the top, sometimes you don't have time to look for seeing what's coming next. It's very hard to get these younger guys in because you're

about to win a World Cup or you're about to win the World Test Championship. So now the next bit is going to be tough for Australia. Australian cricket's about to go through a massive change and, you know, but they only need a couple more years. Stark has declared I'm not playing T20s. I want to play two more years. That's when the next generation will come. And I just think Scotty Boland is one of those ones that may not be around because they

need the next generation to come through. So I think he knows that. And I reckon he's going to have an absolutely magnificent Ashes series. And I reckon Doggett's going to surprise a few as well. Wow. Okay. Hey, Jack, fancy a chat about spinners. Yeah, go on then. What's it like as a spinner in Australia? I found it very tough.

Yeah, I think obviously different wickets, different ball. So, yeah, it was tough, I think. but like there's still you know you watch Nathan Lyon ball and I'm a big admirer of him and look up to him a lot and what he does and you know I think if you're if you're getting over the top of the ball and getting top spin on the ball like you know you can get bounce and I love what Nathan Lyon has done over

over years and years it's like it's quite a simple plan I think and but it's how good his stock ball is and how well he can bowl that and yeah I guess and bold to his plan and he keeps it simple and and that and does a great job so I think I think that's the key in Australia and and yeah yeah is there anything unique about it versus any other country um I think from all the places I mean New Zealand um i think is that you want a bowl in a similar style um i don't know i've had a little bit more success in new zealand but i'd i'd say um the the biggest thing i learned out there was

sort of the type of spin that you're getting on the ball um maybe compared to here in england where you can go a bit more side spin and get that natural variation so yeah i think you've really got to try and extract bounce and um and get your wicket it's in a little bit of a different way. And yeah, I think every ground is slightly different as well. So you're trying to adjust to that. There's wind to maybe deal with it in some ground. So yeah, just different.

It felt very different to bowling in England. I think of all the people involved in this series, the one tonight that I was the most kind of looking forward to discussing is probably Nathan Lyon. So given Jack has opened the door wide, let's do that. Firstly, Mark, in your previous capacity with England, how would you have been helping prepare people for Nathan Lyon?

Well, I think that, you know, spinners will always talk about wanting bounce, and in Australia there's plenty of bounce. Having said that from a batting point of view, I was always quite happy to have bounce. The reason why is that I could camp on the back foot, and I didn't want to be prodding forward to length deliveries bringing in short leg and slip,

and I would be quite happy to stay on the back foot and play from there. And then, of course, they've got to come fuller. Nathan Lyon gets really good bounce. He bowls at a good pace. So he's not the easiest necessarily to get down the wicket, but I do think you can play him off the back foot. But as I mentioned earlier, you know,

I did see him operate round the wicket into sort of that hip with a short leg and leg slip and sort of cramping the right handers. And, you know, that can certainly do a whole, holding role. But, you know, another element to the spin bowling is that it's called the drift. You know, when we used to play at the Wacker, there was that breeze that used to come across the ground.

And, you know, whether you're a swing bowler or a spinner, you know, using that breeze to help your drift or your swing is a huge element. And, you know, when one talks about drift, you know, you think a Shane worn, you know, bowling the ball halfway down the wicket and it's sort of swinging into the right-hand leg stump and then turning across. Well, Nathan Lyon, of course, you know, if there's that advantage,

you know, to get the ball up in the air and to have it move in the air and then spin back is a huge weapon for the spinner. So he'll, you know, that's something that, you know, I don't know whether there's a cross breeze at the stadium,

but if there is, you know, that will be an important element for the spinner as well. I think, Jeff, for me it's just because how many players in Ash's history have had absolutely, you know, bona fide iconic ashes moments, both at the extreme joyous end and the extreme despair end. So you've got, you know, Nathan Lyne is batting on one leg at Ludd.

Lourdes gives him a standing ovation. I know that meant a lot to him. On the other side of it, the moment at Heddingley where he effectively, you know, drops the ashes trying to run out. It was a spinner wearing glasses. Can't remember his name. Who could it have been, was it? But do you know what I mean, Jeff?

I mean, just that alone must put him really high up if you were going to do a list of iconic Ashes cricketers, iconic moments. Nathan Lyon is there. Yeah, there was never a single there, Jack. We could all see that watching on. My word. I think this will be his eighth ashes off the top of my head. Nathan Lyon, he's been around since 2013 in that series.

I mean, he was getting left out of the side in 2013 in England, which is unthinkable now, and they brought Ashton Agar in as a specie, which worked with the bat, but not with the ball. So I suppose when you've had a career that's so long, your chances are being involved in those sort of moments increases. There are so many sort of Nathan Lyon oddities in that career that 2013-14 series, when he wasn't dismissed across the entire series, somehow managed to end up not out every time he battered. the, I'm remembering him at Hobart Hooking Mark Wood over the pavilion out into the street for six, you know, he's had extraordinary moments with bat and ball. And I don't know, he's such a kind of, I suppose modest in terms of the ability, you know, not so much in terms of

personality, but where you've got to play like Shane Warren, who everybody idolizes and looks up to, Nathan Lyons, a very different sort of operator. He's an off spinner. He's got an average in the 30s, not in the 20s, but he's just been so consistent. And it's that holding job that he does. If you look at his numbers in Australia, he's played almost the same number of tests where he's bowling in the first innings of the match rather than the second, sorry, in the third or fourth match innings. But he gives away so few runs. He does a holding job. He goes for fewer than three runs and over in the first or second innings of the four. And it's picked up almost as many wickets bowling first as he has bowling second,

but has done it while bowling a lot more over. So they really rely on him during that first team innings to be the one to keep control and keep tempo. And that's why, as was identified a bit earlier, there's an opportunity for England to really mess with Australia if they go after Lion early and if they're able to get away with it. but he won't necessarily mind that because he has players go after him a lot

and he's been pretty good at being able to defend against that sort of approach. Jack, what is it like to go in the space of half a second from knowing you're involved in an all-time low Ashes moment to knowing you're now involved in an all-time high Ashes moment? Yeah, I think it taught me about how much luck plays a part in support and yeah, I was going to be an absolute villain

and ended up a bit of a hero. So, yeah, I've got Nathan Lyon to thank for that. And I did say that to him when I was walking out at Manchester the next game and everyone was standing up shouting, like drinking out their shoe for me or something. I can't remember why. And, yeah, I walked past Lyon and I said, I think I owe you a beer and he said, you owe me a whole case, mate. so um yeah um he took it well but um yeah it was uh quite a moment and uh it kind of ruins it for me

i can't really watch it because i remember that like really it i should it shouldn't have panned out how it did but um no come on you can't say that surely well it's just that's just the way i see it but um yeah i i mean to start with i can watch it now and now i can sort of view it But, yeah, it was a scary moment in the time. And I remember Stokesy having to sort of, I was shaking and I had sweat on my glasses and I was trying to clean them. And, yeah, it was all a bit of a panic moment.

But, yeah, managed to get through it. You batted absolutely immensely, Jack. Don't let that sort of inner voice say anything else. The funny thing about this, Ryan, is after all this kind of eulogising over Nathan Lyon, I was reading former Captain Mark Taylor's comments about the prospect of dropping Nathan Lyon, at Perth. The argument being that

if you go for an all-rounder like Cam Green and you bolster the batting depth and therefore the seam bowling options, where does that leave him? But he's got to play, hasn't he? Matt, the old tubby's trying to get another clickbait or whatever you want to say. No, but the interesting one is

does he play at the Gabba? Because traditionally he's had a very good record at the Gabber. But again, if you're having a pink ball test match, match at the Gabba. My, that's only going three and a half days, four days at best. And he didn't play the last one in the West Indies on that, you know, dodgy wicket and they changed it and, you know, they left him out there.

So he's playing 100% in Perth. My question is the Gabba. And will they, you know, decide to go all pace attack, you know, with the pink ball? Because that's the one that I think, you know, if he's going to miss, he's going to miss there, then he's going to play the other three. but yeah it's a big big question to sort of leave out a Nathan line and you know with his record and I know Jeff was you know talking about how how great he's been for Australia really I think if you put into context every other spinner that's toured Australia I think the record

together their average is horrendous it's it's close to 50 if you put all the spinners that ever tour Australia so that just shows you how hard it is to actually as a finger spinner or as a spinner to come to grips with Australia. I know Warnie made it easy for everyone and probably put every spinner under the bus really with what he did. But, you know, Australian conditions generally, it is hard to be a spinner. And, you know, Nathan has been one of the greats. We know that. Before that, you know, you could probably, no disrespect to the spinners, but, you know, you're talking about maybe five or six in the,

history of the game that has done really, really well in Australia. So it's a tough thing to do. And your bloke, if it's Shera, who's a youngster, who, if he's given that opportunity, and don't get me wrong, I love seeing youngsters given a chance. And, you know, they purposely picked him for literally a couple of years to play in Australia. If you suddenly don't play Bashir, what does that say? Have you just, old mates sort of sitting down there in Somersets, probably wasted two years of his test career, because he's, he's the best spinner in England, without a doubt, what I've seen, but they've purposely picked Bashir to get that drop and all that.

So if they change tack and say, no, no, we're not playing a spinner now, I think that's a bit of a U-turn, which I didn't really see coming. Yeah, listen, Jack, I know it's obviously tough for you. We're absolutely over the moon that we've got you. And obviously, we all know that you would have daily loved to be there. But, you know, while we're talking about spinballing, we talk about the England side of it, obviously no one is going to want to see them succeed more than you,

no yeah I think like in terms of the spin that's out there I think I've worked a little bit with bash over the last couple of years and I saw him playing well probably three four years ago a second team game for Somerset and and thought quite highly of him and you know in terms of the attributes he has for Australian conditions I can like really see how how that fits and yeah I hope he does really well and he's a great lad and someone who I classed as a friend, so really want him to do well. And I think Jaxi, like, is a really good pick also. I mean, it gives you a different dynamic if you want to go down a different, slightly different balanced team, I guess, and hit them with a bit more batting.

And I also think from working with Jaxi, he came on a tour to Pakistan, got six for on debut, he's a really good bowler. And I think if he wasn't so good at smacking it out the ground in T20 cricket, he would have played a lot more longer format cricket and bowled a lot more for Surrey. And I think in terms of how he delivers the ball with that overspin, he has those skills as well.

So obviously, in terms of the amount of bowling those two have got is not the same as a Nathan line. But yeah, I think in terms of how their skills fit for the conditions, they've picked quite smart in terms of that. Yeah, look, I think it says a massive. amount about you, Jack, that you know, that you feel that way. And I wonder if... I'm gutted as well, though. I know you are. I know you are. Of course you are. Has it in any small way helped with the personal disappointment that you know you have put that work in to try

and help these guys, especially Sherry Bashir, to become the players that they are becoming? Well, I mean, the way I would think is, I wouldn't say I've had a lot of. to do with that but um if i have then that's great yeah i mean i pride myself on trying to be a good team man and um whoever i'm playing for so um that's really important to me um and yeah so so hopefully that is the case and um but i still have my um aspirations and um you know i've signed a three-year contract with with some set so i still feel i have those aspirations to kind of improve my game um and get back to playing for England. So whether that happens or not, I don't know,

but I will definitely be trying. Yeah, well, good on you. And also, I think we should say as well, Jeff, that this might not be Nathan Lyons last last Ashes, by the way. 18 months. I wouldn't think so. I wouldn't rule it out. I wouldn't think so.

I mean, well, look, he's somebody who, he didn't expect to be playing for Australia. You go back to 2013 when he still has hair, and it's quite strange watching the old clips because, you know, he's a very different seeming type. But he's so shy. He was so lacking in confidence. It took him years to be able to believe that he was in the Australian team.

And now he's reached that point where he's settled. He's confident in the job that he does. I don't think he ever wants to stop playing for Australia. I think they'll carry him out of that dressing room, basically. If they keep picking him, he'll keep showing up. There's no, everybody else you can see an exit point. You can see where they might say, well, I've played enough, I've had my successes.

He'll play for five more years if they let him and the body holds up. So, yeah, coming back to England is definitely one. I think there is still that sense of unfinished business for a bunch of those players having drawn the last couple of series in England. They really want to win a series outright. Whether that gets Steve Smith back another time is another question too. But broadly overall, like I was saying before, that the point of line is that he's so central.

You can talk about, like Brian was talking about whether he would miss out on a pink ball test. He's got the second most wickets ever in pink ball cricket. He played every day-night test that Australia had played up until the one in Jamaica. So he's somebody who, regardless of the changes in format and the changes in venue, has been such a consistent pick for Australia. I think the fact that they left him out in Jamaica was really that they were looking at a game that they could maybe win in two days and just get it over and done with.

and get on the plane home. So I'm confident that he will play every test during this summer. I think that regardless, they like to have that option. They like to have the change in bowling. They've got the extra seamer with green as long as he's fit to bowl. So you want one other type of bowler to be able to change things up, and that'll be what Lions able to offer. We should also say,

happy birthday for Thursday to Nathan Lyon when he will be 38. and I know we all agree that we hope that's the only good day he has this week. We're down to almost the last 20 minutes. As far as I'm concerned, it's not an Ashes series if we don't hear from Jimmy Anderson. So let's talk about some English pace attack and hear from the tail enders podcast to simply the best to ever do it. I think that could be one telling part of the whole series. If England are going to win this series or have a chance,

then the bowling attack has got to be relentless. relentlessly good because I think the pitchers will have a little bit of movement in them that have done on the last two tours we've been there so you do need accuracy as well as pace and I know it's great to watch but there'll be some spells I'm sure where we're watching thinking this is amazing with Joffr Archer Mark Wood especially Perth the first test where it's you know notoriously bouncy and quick so there could be some amazing spells in in the games but I think you do still need that element of accuracy and I can't see Archer and Wood playing too many games together.

I think if you're going to play them together potentially the first test at Perth where it's fast and bouncy, you want to get off to a good start in the series so hit them straight away with proper pace. But then after that I imagine they'll try and play one of them and rest and recover the other. So then

I think that leaves space for, if they play together then obviously there's one more and Stokes so it potentially would be a Briding Castle or a Gus Atkinson. Briding cast probably the slightly quicker of the two, getting towards 90 miles an hour, but they've got skill as well

and probably a bit more control than the others. So I feel like they could play a big, or they're going to have to play a big part, especially if they rotate in Wood and Archer. That's Jimmy Anderson, speaking to Greg James and Felix White on the Tail Enders podcast. You can listen to and watch Tail Enders throughout the Ashes.

They'll be doing a reaction podcast to every test on BBC Sounds, IPlayer, and BBC Sports YouTube channel. So there ramps, we got a clear indication of the whole England pace attack from Jimmy. How are you feeling about it going into the first test then? I remain punchy, as I said at the top of the programme. I think England have got an excellent chance.

And a big reason is the fact that I think over the last two years I've been hugely impressed with Atkinson and Kass. I think that they are slightly different bowlers, both good pace. but Atkinson, I think, can swing the ball and he can swing the Cuckaburra and he bowls a slightly full of length whereas Cars, big, strong, hit the pitch.

So if I look back at my career, I remember Damien Fleming being a very, very fine bowler who used to bowl a full of length than, say, Gillespie or McGrath. And it was very difficult to play because he'd get you coming forward and lots of his deliveries would be hit in the top of the stumps. I think Atkinson can bowl in a similar way,

maybe slightly quicker than Damien. But then you look at Carls, and he might be comparable to say something like a Gillespie hits the pitch hard. You know, if there's any uneven bounce there, he will find it. Both guys have been pretty robust, you know, and I think for me they're the first two bowlers on the team sheet. And I know that may surprise some people, but I think the way that they played away from home for England,

they've shown themselves to be adaptable and reliable. And then you throw into the mix, you know, an archer and wood. I wouldn't play both of them in the same team, I have to say. Even for the first test? No, absolutely. I wouldn't play both for them. To me, it's too big a risk. I think Archer right now is a head of wood because he's got over his under his belt and, you know, there's, I think he's probably, you know, he's had more cricket and he's bowled pretty well, hasn't he? Without necessarily having, you know, loads of wickets. But he's a handful and, you know, England will obviously be hoping he's a bit of an X factor. Of course, you've still got to move the ball laterally. You know, you can be quick, 90 miles an hour. But if the pitches are good and you don't have that little bit of lateral movement to defeat the top batters in the world. So, you know, sometimes you feel like Archer, he doesn't necessarily do loads

with the ball, but he certainly expressed pace. So, you know, I think those three for me and then, you know, any of the others, tongue won't let England down, I don't think. You know, again, tall, accurate, gets a bit of bounce. But those three for me would be the front three. And then you put Ben in there. I mean, Ben Stokes, it was only at Old Trafford, wasn't it? He got five for in a hundred. You know, what an amazing all-rounder he is.

Obviously, he's the leader of the plaque. But his own individual game is very much in order. He bowled really well in the warm-up game. So I think those four seamers that I've named will be a real handful. Do you know, Ryan, what Mark was saying there kind of leads nicely into some Steve Smith quotes. It's actually, it took me a little. while to work out exactly what he was saying the other day when he was asked about the England pace attack. But along the lines of what Mark was saying about, you know, it isn't just

about being super quick. He said, effectively, he was asking the question, Steve Smith, whether England might have got it wrong by going with so much speed. This is the quote, sometimes the slower guys are almost harder to play on these wickets where you have to make the pace. But yeah, we'll wait and see. So, Ryan, is that him saying that because he knows his attack doesn't have the same pace as England's or is he just trying to sort of get in the heads a little bit maybe to try and make England's pace bowlers almost try and bowl too quickly to add a bit of emotion into it

well for sure you've got to nip away at the opposition that's for sure I think we've established that but you know the Sheffield shield wickets have changed a lot over the last couple of years in Australia someone like a Fergus O'Neill has been outstanding for Victoria and we saw him at Nottingham and his pace is late 120s

maybe early 1 30s and nips around I noticed that the wicket keeper was up to the stumps the other day in the second innings and he's not ever spoke well he's been mentioned in passing but the comments are that maybe he doesn't bowl fast enough

now that might change but he's the sort of guy that's bowling a lot of overs in Sheffield Shield cricket and taking a lot of wickets. So So I can see where Smith is coming from. And, you know, I was loving listening to Mark talk about pace isn't everything. Australia are bored up on pace. You'd still got to swing the ball or move the ball.

And that's the big difference between the Cookaburra ball and the Jukes ball. What can you do with that Cucaburra ball? So look, I'm really impressed with the England attack. I think Josh Tong has come on in leaps and bounds over these last two years. and is a brilliant backup. I agree with Mark. Bryden Kass has become the most important sort of cog in the machine of England at the minute.

I know that Stokesy loves him because he gives his always wholehearted effort, will run in all day and try and bowl fast and try and move the ball. So he has become an international cricketer. And let's not beat around the bush. Cassie had some dark moments over the last couple of years, but he's found his way out and Ben Stokes is a big reason for that and he's playing in all

format so I think cast is a big part of that and I agree I love Mark Wood he hasn't played since February so he bowled eight overs in the in a warm-up game and felt some hamstring soreness I guess there's going to be that wonder until he plays a game I don't I'll be honest I haven't even looked at England's schedule I don't even know if there is a game that he can play I think it's the prime minister's 11 or something but I just wonder if they have to see him out in the middle I don't know I don't know the answer to that

but if anyone can bowl fast with a limited and I've seen his preparation at times when he's come back it's that bloke because he does find a way to bowl fast so look England have what they need it's what they've wanted they've wanted an arsenal of fast bowlers

and they've got that now they just all have to all will. Jack, I certainly won't be the guy to say to Mark Wood and Joffre Archer. Yeah, but all you can do is bowl really fast. That's it. No, yeah, but then that's one of the best batters in the world. So I guess it's allowed, yeah. He's allowed, yeah, and it's different for him.

He's probably looking forward to it. But, yeah, no, I'd agree with everything the guys have said. I think what they've done well, England have done it well over the last couple of years, is kind of give those guys a number of games. So it feels, as an England fan, you feel comfortable with any kind of combination that they go with those seamers. I do wonder whether if they were looking at the wicket

and it was particularly green and they felt like a spinner wasn't going to bowl many overs, whether they would go four seamers and then hit them with Wood and Archer in the first test. And then you've got Stokes as well. So you've got the five seamers, maybe if Woody's not quite right whether he'll play in a Lions game

there's I think Lions have got a couple more games over there so that could be a use of games where he can actually get some cricket and build that confidence before he maybe comes into it second or third test so I think they've got options and yeah it's going to be exciting to see what they go with options is also the word Jeff

for Australia's decisions at the top of their order but it's a slightly different discussion It's not about cherry-picking who is the absolute best here from an embarrassment of riches. It's more complicated than that, isn't it? It's a lot more complicated than that because really, really strong contenders have been thin on the ground in Australian domestic cricket for a few seasons for that job. There have been the players who've done that before, like Bancroft and Wrenshaw and so on, but who haven't put together big streaks of scoring at the right times. The fact that San Constis got picked last summer was emblematic of the fact that there were not obvious options.

You know, that was a total hunch based on the fact that he made twin hundreds in one Shield game. They were the only first class hundreds of his career, though, and he was picked on that basis to come in and try to disrupt Jasper Bumerer during that opening spell. And yes, it worked for a test match at the MCG and things very rapidly got a lot harder for San Constus. and he's back on the outer now, although he's in that PM's 11 squad. So it's given the lack of an obvious choice, that's what's eventually led them to Jake Wetherald, who's a bit like the Brendan Doggett sort of story, as far as the batting goes in a player who's in his early 30s,

who's been consistent at shield level for a while and who's been a high performer over the last couple of seasons. And that's a long enough body of work that they've decided that they like what they see is relatively, as an opener, so that gives them some contrast with Usman Kowager, who's got more and more slow at his scoring rates that seems over the last two to three years. But it's a pretty untested line-up.

You know, there's such a huge opportunity for England in that first test. If they've got a bowler on debut out of that fast bowling squad, and they've got an opening batter on debut with the other opener under a degree of pressure with not a lot of runs in the past couple of years, it's such a big opportunity. I mean, England have to win that first test, but I was reflecting back on the conversation just now, I think they'd be absolutely nuts

to not pick Wood and Archer if they're fit. If Mark Wood can get through a game, that's such a point of difference. It's so rare to have either of those available, you know, oftentimes they're both injured, but to have them both available at the same time on a fast pitch when you can pick a couple of other seamers as well to perform that support role.

And effectively, Wooden Archer can be one bowler, You know, they can take one spot. They can bowl short spells and they could really offer something different. If you're Jake Weatherall coming in on debut, what do you want to hear? Do you want to hear that they picked Wood and Archer? Or do you want to hear that they went, oh, well, we're not sure about Wood's hamstrings, so we're going to leave him out. I think Jake Wetherall would rather hear that only one of them are playing,

in which case do what your opposition doesn't want. All right, so good news for Ryan and Jeff. I have just appointed you as the new co-chairs of the Australian selectors. that's the kind of power I have now so what I would like from both of you and Ryan you can go first is your two openers and your number three because this is the discussion

at the minute so who are you picking weather all bats with coaja because the facts are since Warner's retirement Australia have lost their mojo at the top of the order and coaja has gone into his shell almost so maybe they need a bit of a counterpuncher So weather all slides in there for me.

And then Labashane, who's done everything that they've asked and made plenty of hundreds, looks like he has found his mojo and is trying to score and is back in, you know, really good form. I think he slots in at number three and the rest pick themselves, to be honest, with Cameron Green at number six, which therefore, you know, Webster, who's done a pretty good job, he's probably the unluckiest cricketer in Australia. Jeff, do you concur? Yeah, I think that's right. The fact that when it's in the squad at all means it means that they're going to pick him.

Well, the other option, you know, okay, if I can run the counterfactual for you, Steve, the other option would have been to have Cameron Green higher up, have him bat at three, have Labashane open, then you get Webster in at six. But that just feels like a more janky sort of batting line up. That's more homemade. Green at three wasn't really convincing, you know, we saw him play one great internet. at number four in New Zealand a little while ago when he made that big 100 in Wellington, but Green at 3 wasn't quite convincing enough.

I mean, Webster at 6 has produced useful half centuries, but hasn't had a big defining innings in that spot either. And Labashane as an opener was a bit makeshift too. Sure, there's not that much difference between batting three or batting two a lot of the time, but three is where he's produced his best work for Australia. So if you can have him where he's most comfortable and Smith at 4 where he's most comfortable and you can have a specialist open to do the job,

that seems like the best way to go about it. And you can have Green bowling some overs and coming in at 6, which is probably a little low. You know, Green would like to be 4 or 5. That's the spot that's most suited to his game given he takes a while to get going. But Green at 6 is the least trade-offy of all of the trade-off solution.

Let's finish with Joe Roo. I'm not sure if any of you guys know this. It's a really interesting stat, but Joe Rout hasn't actually scored 100 in Australia. I found that one out myself, just my own research. I went back through all of his innings. Oh, Mark, I mean, he will get asked about it every time there is a microphone in front of his mouth until he gets it.

You all have, you know, you've all been in and around him. Do you suspect it will be having any impact on him right now? well look you know they've been chipping away Australia about this for quite some time I don't think Joe is driven by personal statistics I think he's driven by contributing to his team and so therefore you know we'll have to see what the pitches are like and what the scores are like

but if Joe gets a brilliant 60 and the team win he's happy I think that's a really healthy place to be in your mindset he will go out and play the way he thinks best on that surface on that day he's a master player let me just tell you I was lucky enough to to be a coach for a few years he was first in the nets last out always challenging himself in practice always open to conversations about you know improving that 1% but I think yeah controlling his emotions having a mindset of contributing to his team enjoying the team trying to do well in Australia that's the big picture and it takes away from you know this personal moral Stone. I've got no doubt that he will come good and he'll get to three figures. But whether he does or he doesn't, in my book, he's still a master player, still rated, you know, for me, number one in the world. And he's got great longevity in his career. He's still highly motivated. So watch out Australia. I guess if we're talking, Ryan, technically,

there is at least one shot that Joe Root is an absolute master of, that kind of like, late Michael Vaughan was talking about it, late glide, he described it through third man, that he loves to play, you know, bouncy or Aussie pitches,

that there is an argument there that that could neutralise one of his favourite shots, not that he doesn't have lots in his armoury. Yeah, and Mark mentioned that earlier on in the show. It's an area that in Australia,

you've got to be very careful of when you're playing with that three quarter bat, you know, trying to run it down. So that's an area, obviously, that he works, we'll be working hard on. I've got to say, I love watching Joe Root Bat.

He's going to go down as one of the greats that we've ever seen. He hasn't made 100 in Australia, yeah, I get at. But I don't think he needs to make 100 for England to win the series, which is a bit weird. But I think Steve Smith, for instance, needs to make a lot of runs. And I think Travis Head needs to make a lot of runs for Australia to win. Whereas I've got a feeling that the England runs are going to come more of from everywhere, so to speak.

So I want him to make a hundred just so we can all sit back and go, you know what, he was one of the greatest of all times. Can we just put that to bed now? Jack, as someone who obviously knows him really well, what would it mean to him to get it? What, the hundred or winning the ashes? Well, that's a good question, actually, because I think we know he'd put winning the ashes ahead of it,

but... Yeah, definitely. The hundred is big, though. Yeah, I think it's what motivates the top. top players is, you know, if there's doubts out there, you want to kind of prove them wrong. So I would imagine, on the quiet, he is quite motivated to get that 100, mainly because if he's scoring 100, England are in a great position. So that's just how batting works, I think, and, you know, big innings make a big difference

in game. So he will want to do that. He's always wanted to do that. And I think, you know, he averages 35 in Australia, which is probably better than most people who he's played with when they've been. over there. So he's still our biggest performer with the bat. And if he gets that three figures, it'll be a nice one to put to bed and he can go down as one of the greats for sure. As England and Australia, so many things divide us. But can anybody tell me the one thing that

would unite us in not wanting Joe Root to get an Ashes 100 this year? Anybody able to tell me? The clue is it involves a famous former Australian batter. Matthew Hayden says if Joe Root doesn't get 100 in the ashes he will run around the stadium naked so for all of our sakes Joe go and get it done I think that's the message isn't it 100% we don't want to see Matthew Hayden need no no not at all

Jeff go for a nap or have some breakfast you choose thank you good to have options brilliant stuff guys thank you all very much indeed Jeff Lemon, Mark Ramprakash, Jack Leach, Ryan Campbell, who've all been with us. The BBC will be your home of Ashes' coverage around the clock, every ball of every test on TMS. You can watch the highlights on the BBC Sport website and app

with a full highlights programme each afternoon on the IPlayer. There'll be daily podcasts on the TMS feed. You'll be able to get the thoughts of Michael Vaugh and Glenn McGrath and many, many more, as well as a special tail enders at the end of each test. As always, thank you so much for listening. Five Live Sports The Rugby Union

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