Test Match Special - The Ashes: Rob Key ’Sorry’ for England performing at 20%

Episode Date: December 23, 2025

Rob Key discusses preparation, performance and the trip to Noosa as the fallout of the Ashes defeat begins. Plus, we talk through it all with Stephan Shemilt and George Dobell.

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Hello and welcome to the Test Match Special podcast from the Melbourne Cricket Ground. The ashes may have gone from England's dreams, but there are still games to be played for and indeed futures on the line. In this edition, we'll be hearing an extended interview with the man responsible for English men's cricket, managing director Rob Key. Strap yourselves in for a chat that leaves no stone unturn as the inquiry as to where it's all gone wrong begins. at the Ashes So two days on

from the Adelaide defeat that saw England go 3-0 down in the Ashes series the questions have very much begun. Was preparation right were the selections correct? Have Australia been just too good? Shortly will be joined

by George DeBelle of the cricketer and the BBC's chief cricket reporter Stefan Schemelt to discuss what is a truly fascinating interview. Stefan, you've just been sitting down with Rob Key in two of the 100,000 seats here at the MCG with England's Ashes Dreams in Tatters. Rob, I think, just to start with, you played in Australia.

You know how hard it is for England teams to win test series down here. And this England team has just found out the same. Yeah, and I think, do you know what, like when I look at the trip I was on, I remember you're thinking like, I remember meeting Adam Gilchrist as a 22-year-old, whatever I was, and he sort of introduced himself, and I thought, yeah, I know who you are, make you one of the best players I've ever seen you know and I actually feel that this is a very very good Australian team but I don't feel like we've put anything like our best account of ourselves out here and there's lots of different reasons for that which I'm you know lots of I have lots

of different views on that but that's the most frustrating disappointing thing is that we're so much better than I think what we've shown you know we've got some brilliant players that haven't been anywhere near their full capacity as a player their potential which is what you're doing these jobs and i think that's the overriding my overriding thought about it and i don't feel like you know we've always given them the best chance to do that you know and that's our job in these in these roles so why why haven't you given the best account so why is this england team not done that well i think that when you look at when you look at the decision with the decision making that we've made if you start you know like often things happen you know like you make

decisions a year or two sometimes you think you're winning two years ago and you know they're might be costing you down the line but you know when I look at it really I think that you know the way that you know we look to come out here we had the white ball series against New Zealand and I've sat in these sort of I've just done a press conference sitting here with you when we've had a poor whiteball tour or whiteball competition and said well I focused too much on test cricket so I wasn't compared to do that this time I had the belief that actually, you know, we had to go to New Zealand and we had to go out there and put a good show on

and be able to play and go and win out in New Zealand, in the 50-over format in particular. We had to give Harry Brooke and Brendan McCollum the best side possible to go out there and do that. And actually, that will be fine because they can go out there and the batters like Joe Root, like Benduckett, can go out there and they can start their preparation then with hard cricket against New Zealand in generally what is whiteball cricket,

has been good pitches, good, you know, a good opportunity to spend some time out in the middle as well as try and help win a game for England. That didn't happen. We got to early season New Zealand, as we knew it would, pitches going everywhere, games over quickly, bowlers dominating, didn't help at all, you know. We had our bowlers thought, right, okay, they can start their preparation there from Joffre Archer, Bride and Cass. That can be the start. We're on the back foot from that stage really. We then had a thing where we had a choice really of going to Adelaide, I think, and playing a game against an Australian side there, but we felt different time zone, different conditions from Perth. Let's at least get into Perth, get there, control the preparation

ourselves, as we always have done. And that's the problem. You get to the stage where you think, do you know what, what's been successful for us in our preparation up until this point? We don't want to change that. You know, we haven't played lots of games. We've gone out and actually, whether it was Abu Dhabi before India, stuff like that, we've started well in those series. So we thought, you know, we just want to keep replicating that because you don't want to turn up to Australia doing things that you haven't done before, you know,

where you actually think, you know, we want to make sure we've got a settled batting line up that everyone knows exactly what we're about, exactly how we do things. I'm talking about the players here. And unfortunately, that wasn't right, you know. And that's the problem. That's where, that's not where it starts.

You know, because there's other things with selection that, you know, you can look back on and you think, well, maybe a year or two ago, we didn't get that right. But, you know, that's the reasoning behind it. And that's where, you know, we haven't been able to give the players the best opportunity, I think. So you're talking a lot about preparation there. And Brendan said to us a couple of days ago that he felt, in hindsight, the preparation wasn't right.

So are you saying this in hindsight that the preparation wasn't right? or beforehand, could the thing's been done differently? No, I think in hindsight, it's very hard to argue that it's been right when you've done that. I'm explaining the reasons for why we did that. You know, so you end up coming out and saying, well, this is, these are the reasons why. You know, it's not the case that you can go and play. I wasn't prepared to write off that white ball series in New Zealand. You know, I just didn't think that was the right thing to do.

So then, you know, so it's not the case where you can just have a clear window and you're going straight into, so the answer isn't, oh yes, I would have gone and played four games against state teams and all of that. I don't think that, you know, is possible in this day and eight, but we still had to be better with what we did, you know. And, you know, there's things like the Wacker as well. We couldn't use the Wacker.

Why not? Well, because a year ago when we came out here, you know, that was it. It was Adelaide or it was going to go to Perth and then it would be a club ground. And we said, no, no, that time zone, that conditions, that climate, you know, we'll try and do it our best way we can do it. Did it get explained to you why the Wackett wasn't available? No. Well, I think they had what, big bash games and there was a shield game.

You just mentioned that maybe some selection decisions, a long-term selection decision? No, as I say, when you get to this point and you've got players that have succeeded or failed, you look back, you know, you look back and you think, well, you know, maybe we shouldn't have done that. I'm not going to go into what they were at this stage, because we've still got two games to go in the series. But no, I think that, you know, ultimately, you know, the underlying fact is that you come out here, as I said, on the tour I went on, could we have beaten that side? Probably not. They were a better side than us. Could we have beaten this Australian side? I think we could have. And we'd have had to been out our best. We've been at about 20% of our capacity, I'd say. You know, we haven't been consistent enough with the ball. You know, and I think all the bowlers that we have can bowl better than what they did. You know, with the exception has been outstanding. I think every bowler really and they're getting better throughout the series

which tells you really that probably we didn't get it right at the start. Such an admission to make that maybe you've only been at 20% of your best and that maybe you haven't given yourself the best chance to succeed. It's quite a side factor, right? Would you disagree with that?

No, no. Well, what I think doesn't matter but as the man making the decisions and for people listening to this who think that England had their best chance to win here for a long time, that is, they'll be very hard for them to hear about it. Yeah, but I think that's, that's the truth really, to be honest, because I think that, you know, when you're three-nelled down

and you haven't played anywhere near your best with the players that we've got, that's just a fact, you know, and that's what we've got to, for the next two games, you know, we've got to make sure that, you know, we're getting as close to that as we possibly can. And look, there's other reasons for the fact of that, that Australia are very good. You know, there's a fact that, you know, you can't, They make it very hard for the players to play their best, you know.

So as much as it's preparation, things like that, there's also a factor that they're a very, very good side. This bowling attack in particular is outstanding. The way that they come, they give you absolutely nothing. We knew that, though. But that, you know, that doesn't change the fact that many a team have come here, not just English sides and struggled against this bowling attack. So it's not all down to preparation, you know,

I don't think, have we had one more game, would that have changed things? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think that, you know, I think the fact that Australia are in their own conditions, you know, is as much of the factor as anything else as well. When you say it's not all down to preparation and obviously you take in the point that Australia are a very good cricket team and they have played very well, what else could have been done to improve that 20%? Is it culture, method, mindset?

Like culture and things like that, you know, they're. the sort of terms of, you know, actually you've got to drill down into what you need to do. I think that our ability to make better decisions, I think sometimes we make stupid decisions as players out there in the middle. Yeah, correct. Like, you know, and we've got to try and equip them to be able to make better decisions when the pressure's really on. I think there's so many times, even in this series where we haven't been at our best, you know,

I think in Perth, you know, I'm watching there, we're ahead in that game. It knew it was going to be a shootout, that pitch. I saw it on the first day I got there, and you knew everything that you looked at, all the analytics, you knew that actually this pitch on the first day is going to be hard work. And actually, I thought when we got 180, that was a good score. Not a great score, but it was a good score that could keep us in the game.

And after day one, it played out as you thought, really. We're 100 for one, and you think, here we go, this is the moment now. And we didn't take that opportunity, you know. And they're the things where they're the frustrations and that's what we've got to get our players being able to make better decisions under pressure. When you say that players have made stupid decisions on the field, historically, has there been enough accountability for those decisions on the field? Because consequence breeds responsibility, doesn't it? So have mistakes been made in the past in holding players to account so their stupid decisions are eradicated? I think that often as a player, you do get held to account every time you go out and play for England, really.

And not everyone's the same, not everything, you know, you don't treat everyone the same, you don't treat everyone. You know, you've got to find what works for each individual, really, of how you try and get them working, whether you're the batting coach, whether you're the bowling coach, whether you're the head coach, Brendan McCollum, the role that I'm in. You know, you try and make sure that every single player, you're treating them. in a way that's going to get them to succeed at their best. Some people can take a stern word, some people don't, you know, and I think that Brendan's one of the best of doing that personally. You know, that's his skill, even with someone like Joe Root. Joe Root would attribute a lot of his success over the last few years

to how Brendan's dealt with him, how he's helped him. You know, and you've just got to keep evolving that and get better at it. What about method of playing? Because it looked quite different in Adelaide to what it had been in the first two test matches. Had the team stuck too rigidly to a certain method? No, I always see, and this is one of the problems with the sort of Basball narrative, really,

because for me, Ambray, we've never spoken about, right, we've got to score quick, we've got to go out there, we've got to score it five, this pitch is five and over. Now, what you're trying to do is you're trying to create an environment where people can maximise their potential, and then you then pick to that style that you want, so you want players that can go out there,

put bowlers under pressure, soak it up, which we haven't done well enough. We always talk like this. but we haven't done it well enough when the moments have come, even that against in the India series and stuff like that. So, and then it's never been. So Zach Crawley in the first year got 30 off 100 balls against South Africa. That wasn't wrong.

We're not sitting there going, no, you're far too slow there, Zag. It's about a mentality that you're looking to score at every opportunity and positive can be a great defensive shot because your mind is then working better. That's how I believe sport is played best. That's how you play. when you're always looking to do something, when you're looking to jump on every ball, when you're looking to take wickets, your brain works better, that helps your defensive game.

And when you're playing your best, you leave better. You know, when you're indecisive, when you're looking to survive, that's when you leave a ball that hits off stump. You know, and that's what you're trying to create. So they go out there and make better decisions time and time again. In terms of making the decisions, is there enough, I can't think of a word better than conflict within the dressing room where people can challenge decision making off the field, on the field.

The way that the team wants to go about playing, when, I don't know, the Canberra game comes up and was there enough room for someone to say, you know, I want to go and have a hit? Or sometimes, are the personalities at the top of that team so strong that they can't be challenged? No, I don't think so with the Canberra game. You know, I actually think that, you know,

we debated that quite a bit. don't just go up and say, right, you know, we actually sit there whether it's a Jacob Bethel, people like that. You know, sometimes you're giving some players, you're giving them the option, some players, you're not really, not everything's the same and stuff like that. I feel that the one we got wrong there was Sherwood Bashir. You know, I actually think he should have gone and played off in that game. But we felt that actually getting to Brisbane and getting into those conditions, different climate, didn't want people turning up two days before the test match from a completely different, you know, it's, you know, it's, you know, it's, you know,

You know, it was incredibly humid in Brisbane, plus the fact you're practicing at the GABA. So I don't have issues with that, you know, but again, I'm not in the dressing room all the time to know exactly what happens. But there's been many occasions where you've seen players challenge, where you've seen actually the players drive it. So if you say in the, we sort of felt that, you know, the first year we had a, you know, we had a really experienced bowling attack and an inexperienced. as batting unit bar root and Stokes. We wanted to then evolve that and we wanted to bring in a fresh, you know, younger or a less experienced bowling attack that could start getting ready and start moving us forward to the next generation of England's test cricket, white ball cricket, everything.

You know, the next year we felt that actually we needed, or coming into India and this that we needed to become smarter, we needed to become more clinical in our decision making, but we felt actually the players were the ones that had to drive that. that the players, it's no point us just sitting there telling them what to do all the time. They have to believe that it's their environment and they can make those decisions. And that's what we try to facilitate really so that they came up with it. There's other times when you need to tell them. So, you know, you don't get everything right all the time, that's for sure.

Was the breaking noose too relaxed? Well, I sort of think about this because I've been reading the reports of what's come on, one of them from yourself. You know, my view on the new I think now, so you take someone like Harry Brooke, he's going to be at home for six days this entire winter. We're in a time

where multi-format cricketers are playing a hell of a lot. So someone like Joffre Archer, did New Zealand, he'll do the ashes, he'll then go to the World Cup more than likely, all things being equal in the next couple of tests with injury, stuff like that. He'll then go to the IPL. We'll then want him to play against New Zealand,

a white ball series against India, the 100, and it goes on, and on and on. So we have to create a time where these players can get away from cricket because they're not going to do it by able to being at home, especially on tours, especially in hectic winters like they are now. And I think that we live in an age as well where it's impossible to avoid cricket. So I sit there on my phone and every Instagram thing comes up. And I know that players say they shouldn't look at it, but they do. So you can't escape cricket, especially on an Asher series and the scrutiny. So to me,

me getting away and being out, I just forget about that and live like a normal person is really important. Now, if it's true that it became a stag do and people are out drinking all the time excessively, that's not acceptable. I don't agree with a drinking culture. I don't like a drinking culture. I'm not a drink of myself particularly. Because no one would say that the players shouldn't have the right to get away. And that's what, you know, and we had extra security there so we'll be looking into you know like the headlines can be misleading at times saying it's a stag do stuff like that and it depends on what people's interpretation is of a stag do you know but if the stories of one you know players drinking six days solid and stuff like that

that's unacceptable but we need but we'll be looking into seeing what the facts are as opposed to the things that have been embellished or elaborated on you know when you see a picture of five or or six guys sitting down for lunch, a couple of them having drinks, you need to see what's going on with that. But we'll find out. Because I guess one percent is, isn't it? You know, when you say people want to go away and have a break

and that's absolutely fine. But if in five days' time you're facing Mitchell Stark in 40 degree heat in Adelaide, there's still also an element of being prepared for that. Absolutely. And it's that balance and life's about balance. You know, and we'll find out, you know, it's not hard.

You know, from what I've heard, from what I've seen so far, you know actually the balance was right but we'll find I'll find out about that you know and they're the things they're the decisions I as I say I don't disagree with players being out to get away from the game and living like normal people because what we cannot afford it is so intense out here as we knew it would be but it's so the there's only more cricket than ever now part of my job is dealing with franchise cricket our players like planning for the next year or two really of what, how we're going to get them to be able to perform to their best in the summer after that, going into everything that we're doing, you know, and it's that balance we've got

to get right. And we're all sort of in a position where every year my job, that it's a different challenge. You know, the first year it was about series that were clashing, having one team in one continent, another team and another continent at the same time pretty much. Now it's actually, you can be a bit more of a multi-format player. And everyone's going to be different with that as well. Some people wear it heavier than others. And there are all the decisions that we're trying to put in place to make sure that players can perform their best.

They're not going to burn out. They're going to be able to get through. Ben Stoke says he wants to stay as captain. Is he going to stay as captain? I think Ben's done an excellent job as captain. I think Ben and Brendan, which should probably be your next question. This is our third series loss in four years. You know, you talk about Nusa.

We've had no issues with players drinking stuff. like that in the past, you know, we've trusted the players to make the right decisions more often than not. They've done that. It's been a successful time without getting the big win. You know, I see a dressing room that still follows the captain, still follows the coach, which is a credit to them really, because this has not been easy at all. So, you know, I definitely think, though, as we try and do it all the time, you know, we will have to evolve. You know, if Ben's going to keep going, if Brendan, As far as I'm concerned, that's not going to be down to me.

You know, the ECB will have a decision about whether it's trying to rip it all up and start again or whether it's about evolution rather than complete revolution. Now, that's not for me to decide. But one thing I do know is that we will have to evolve, we will have to get better, we can't afford to make mistakes as you can't do in any elite sporting environment. So you're involved in giving Brennan extended contract to 2027, and as far as you're concerned, he would be the man to see out that contract. Yeah, look, assuming that, you know, you can't deal with what's going to happen in the next year or two.

I think Brendan, you know, his record speaks for itself. When you put him up against past England coaches, all right, you put him up against past England coaches here, then no. But you put him up over the last four years, his record speaks for itself. But we'll have to be prepared to evolve. We can't just keep going, keep doing the same thing over and over again, which, to be fair, we tried not to, you know, but we have to get better from here. What about your own future? That's not for me to decide. You know, like, I've always just tried to do what's, you know,

I had a pretty cushy life where it's doing a bit more what you're doing, where you're on the other end firing the bullets rather than taking them. I've always just tried to do what I, try and do what's best for English cricket, to be honest. Just try and make a difference. You know, trying to make sure that we're navigating through this world where we might lose our players to franchise cricket, where lots of people are paying them more than what we're paying them. by trying to make sure that the next generation

are able to come and try and win a series out here in Australia by able to fill in the gaps. There's a lot said about my view on county cricket. In this job, I've tried to actually, you know, not be the one that moans about the structure, try and change the structure of county cricket, whether it was even the Cuccarborough ball. I meet with the DOCs every year and say,

if you don't want this, we'll get rid of it. This is your competition. you know and we've tried to facilitate and add to the gaps that the domestic system doesn't have whether that's spin bowling spin camps with Kumar Sangakara with Graham Swan Richard Dawson people like that so we can make sure not only this this era of England cricketers and the centrally contracted ones that we're actually enhancing the game throughout you know and you know if they decide I'm not the right person for that that's their decision really but you'd like to carry on yeah I think it's

an absolute privilege to do this job. And you think just in the short term it would be you and Brendan in charge of the setup going into the T20 World Cup? Look, as far as I'm concerned, at the end of this series we've got two test matches to go. You know, we're going to have to sit down

and work out if we think we're the right people to go forward and actually if we're prepared to do what we think is right and what we need to do to evolve and become you know, more successful you know, and that's always the case but even more so now and if we don't then you know it's down for other people to

decide when you say things like the team's only been at 20% and maybe preparation wasn't right even if that was beyond your control who takes responsibility for that well that sounds really myself Brendan Ben I think you know that there's no one else that you can blame for you know the schedules the schedule stuff like that that's out of our control but in terms of getting the players into a position where they can perform to their best that's on us. And we've taken credit for when we've done that, for a lot of the successful things, a lot of the players,

Harry Brooke, people like that, getting to number one in the world. And I think we take as much accountability when it goes the other way as well. Does it feel like an opportunity wasted? Massively, yeah. I, you know, you sort of gutted,

disappointed sorry as much as anything else as well for the way we've played out here because we're a better side than what we've shown and hopefully in the next two games I think it's so important that actually you know we go out there and play and put on a proper show and go out there and be as successful as we possibly can be for the people that have come you know you look around and you see people that have spent you know probably a huge amount of money, you know, a huge amount of their life-saving stuff like that to come and watch us play and watch us be successful. And you're just absolutely gutted when you don't do that. When you say the word sorry, is that an apology to those people that you're talking to?

Or just a feeling of being sorry. Sorry to everyone that supports and has been through this journey with us all the way. You know, of course you are. You're always, you sort of feel, I don't think if you feel the loss is more so than anyone else really and it's you know you're nothing but you know I'm not great with you know I haven't got the biggest vocabulary yes I have struggled to find anything other than completely gutted for what we've done and just as a final thought and look this might be too bigger question to answer now we might be sitting here all day England will come back here in four years time and they will keep coming here every

four years and you know historically England have not done well on these tours what needs to change for England to be consistently competitive in Australia? Well, that's a big question, as you know, like what do we need to do? What does the England team, like we can have about, we can talk about systems and all of that stuff. You know, we weren't far off having the right sort of make-up of teams, I think. It's the method that we haven't had, you know, where you basically need four bowlers or five bowlers, including a spinner at times, that run up and they are relentless. are hitting a line and length as hard as they can over and over again.

I know people say, well, we've got, no, no, it's not about 75 mile an hour. It's been able to run up and you have an attack that can do that. And you have a batting unit that has the ability to withstand a huge amount of pressure from outstanding bowlers, but then also be able to transfer it when that opportunity arises and you take the right option more often than not. That's what we have to do. That's easier said than done. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds Well so much to discuss from all of that

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That's for all being. TMS at the Ashes. Right then, Stefan, he was frank and honest, I felt, in his 25 minutes. What stood out for you from that? I think the first thing to say that Rob Key is obviously an excellent communicator. I mean, used to be a broadcaster. So that is one of the things that has always been his big strength in the job. And he was honest.

and realistically he didn't have a choice did he i think one of the things um listening back to the interview and he sort of threw it back to me and said these are facts aren't they so well doesn't matter what i think and that is true you know it does matter what he thinks and a lot of those questions um that everyone who has followed england either um here in australian has made the trip and spent a lot of money and traveled in a lot of hope and expectation or anyone who's been flicking on the radio, turning on the TV throughout the night back in the UK, wanted a lot of answers to those questions.

And you can't fault Rob Key in that he answered them. Whether or not the answers are what people wanted to hear, well, I guess that's the thing we're going to get into over the next little while. George DeBelle of the cricketer also listening on to the thoughts of Rob Key. He's always an engaging listen. What did you make of what he had to say? saying. I thought he showed impressive humility and I thought it was genuine and I thought he was honest and I didn't think he had any answers or that he's the answer. Go on. Well he said

honest things like yeah in retrospect we weren't very well prepared. Well quite a lot of people could have told him that three months ago before England arrived and it feels like looking back now and saying do you know what actually maybe we should have had some specialists coaching. Again, this is pretty obvious stuff. So I don't, yeah, nice fella. That's got nothing to do with it. You know, you're a nice fella. I don't think anyone's suggesting you should be England's director of cricket. I'm suggesting that. Okay, well, Henry, it'd be great. So, yes, nice, humble, gave us a lot of time, very honest, didn't have any answers. We're exactly where we were four years ago. I mean, it's incredible. We're having the same conversations as four years ago, many of them as eight years ago,

where we're talking about an alcohol culture and we're talking about do we need to bring some new people in, you know, sack this lot, get another lot in. We're not making any progress because we're not looking at the real issues. But in terms of some of those things, George, and my sort of take on all this is you say it's not in hindsight. But a lot of those things have worked for this England team. You see, I don't even agree with that. Really? No, I don't think. Why not?

Because I think that we've set the bar incredibly low in terms of results, and I don't agree that the results have been particularly good with this lot. I mean, they have dropped, what, below Afghanistan in the ODI rankings. What were they when they took? We're talking about test cricket. Okay, that's absolutely fine. They've won one series out of four. They've lost 13 out of 25.

They haven't won the big series, home or away. They've missed opportunities to win them. We're setting the bar very low. Other seats go to... But the bar was low before they came in? Well, we'll come back to that in a minute, but other teams go to India and win. And when England lose in India,

there was a general feeling, which I thought was a nonsense at the time, that no one wins in India. What New Zealand do? South Africa do. England won in New Zealand. Yeah, they did. And that's fine, but is that the bar?

Well, I'd add it. People say they won in Pakistan. They did. They played really well, but that was almost, what was it, three, four years ago? Three years ago. Yeah.

They've lost since in Pakistan. done. I don't know when drawing a big series at home became acceptable. I just think we're setting the bar quite low and we're accepting fairly mediocre results because the branding around this team has been very good. There's quite a lot of hype and I think it's hollow. The word sorry is a very powerful word and he said that to you Stefan. I think I'm not I'm not disagreeing with a lot of things that George says, I think that everyone will agree that we thought England should have a chance here. And you can say that over a long period of time, England haven't had a chance to win in this country. And historically, English cricket teams have found it very difficult to come here.

What is it? Five teams since the Second World War have travelled to Australia and won. So that tells you a few things. And all of these things can. be true at the same time, by the way, that Australia are a very good cricket team, that is a difficult place for anyone to come and win, but also that there are wider issues with an English cricket that would potentially stop success happening here. In terms of the sorry, I think everyone involved in this England team should realise the opportunity that has been missed. And that isn't just Rob Key and Brendan McCullum because those guys

if they do survive and go off to have other jobs their playing careers are over but for guys like we are in a very real danger of in the next two weeks Ben Stokes and Joe Root never having won a test match in Australia

and we are talking about top five top ten all-time great players to have played for England how can that be that those two players have never won a test match in Australia and those guys have had lots of goes at it for players like Ben Duckett, Bride and Karses,

I'm not particularly picking on those, I'm just thinking of guys who might only get one chance at this. Olly Pope's had two chances, Zach Crawley's had two chances, Shoe Pashir might never come again, Jamie Smith hopefully will come again. But will they have as good a chance as they've had this time? Are those players thinking,

we have really, really drop the ball on this one. Do I think they dropped the ball? I think it was definitely an opportunity. The general base level of Australian cricket is very high. It's higher than England's base level. But we know that they weren't anywhere near full strength

and we know that over the course of the series they'll have missed at various stages, Smith, Hazelwood, Lion, Cummins. Cummins and Lion from the next test here at the MCG. Right, well, it's too late now. But yeah, yeah. So absolutely it was an opportunity.

The opening position is in doubt. You know, Australia are good, but ageing side. And I did like to think. I mean, I thought they were favourites. But I did think that there was a possibility that it could be like the reverse of 1314 when a good England side arrived to him was thrashed because they had all got old together. So I did think that was a possibility. And that obviously hasn't been the case.

And whatever we say, I wouldn't want it to seem like we're not giving Australia credit because they do deserve a lot of credit. They've played really, really good cricket. They've taken outstanding catches. And that's a thing. Okay, the fielding. We go to training. We go to a lot of training over the last few years.

They've pretty much stopped throwing at the stumps in training. They don't have a specialist fielding coach here, and the fielding's been poor. It's not been okay. It's been poor. And if they had taken all the chances, this could be a very different series. Now, again, not having a specialist fielding coach, not working hard on your fielding, these should be non-negotiables and I think they've gone far too far towards the pressure of remaining fresh culture and I think yeah to be honest I think it's very unsophisticated

one thing I think about the the training and the preparation and those sorts of things I think I've said this before but a team becomes an embodiment of his leaders and I do think for the likes of McCollum and Stokes they were cricketers and Stokes obviously still is a cricketer that live for the moment, they get up for the biggest occasions and opportunities and I think Harry Brooks probably another one he certainly... Do they?

Just on that? Because I don't think McClellan & Stokes are the same. As in it, that's what does it for them. Okay. I don't think and so using Harry Brooke as an example I don't think a warm up game at Harry Brooke, a warm up game at Lila Kill does it

for Harry Brooke in terms of what he thinks is a good use of his time. But that's utterly, utterly unacceptable. I don't know. I don't think it is unacceptable because all everyone's different. And so after that game, Ollie Pope said to us, I get something out of all sorts of cricket and he got 190. So he saw the value in it. I think it's fine for different people to need different things. I don't mind that. Sure. And so, but the point being that the leaders of this England team, I'm not sure understand that everyone does need different things. So when it comes to throwing at the stumps or taking catches or playing a warm one, game at Lila Kill. That's where I think the problem comes. I think Stokes works very hard. I do.

And I actually think there's now a clash of cultures. In a different way, though, Ben Stovesworths. I think we're now seeing a clash of cultures. Just on the McCullum Stokes thing, Stokes has pretty much won England two global finals. The T20 final here, marvellously, and the 19 World Cup final. Huge part in both of those.

McCullum didn't do it on the big occasion. He did not. Look at his 2015 in World Cup final performance. I don't think they're the same in that regard and I actually now see a clash of cultures in the way they're playing. In the last test, Ben Stokes demonstrated a fantastic defensive technique

and a dogged sort of determined mindset which is very much seems apart from the run towards the danger, put the pressure back on the bowler's stuff, trying to be aggressive and the reason that's not working is because it was unsophisticated and simplistic. And under pressure,

against good bowlers on tricky wickets it won't work it never has in test history none of the great batters played like that honestly Brian Lara had a defence that could keep out the rain sure he had lots of attacking shots but he earned the right to play them and every great test batter

I'm sure Don Bradman included bit before my time would have earned the right by building a game from a defensive technique up and I think you know I I've said this before, I think it's basically a Ponzi scheme that we've had from McCallum. It's shallow and it will always collapse.

Hang on, no, no, no, because when it was good, it was very good. It was, it was very good in 22. And he is, in some ways, an inspirational figure. He was as a player. The McCollomisation of cricket for a few years from 15 onwards was remarkable. And a lot of it was that you can play really hard test cricket without being a bit of a pratt, because Australia were playing a very aggressive game at that time and not terribly likeable, but they were very good.

and that New Zealand side that got to the World Cup final was inspirational in lots of ways and it changed the way England were playing it changed the way Owen Morgan led his side so there's lots of good things about it but he hadn't actually coached a red ball team before in the same way that Rob Key hadn't been a managing director before Andrew Strauss hadn't been a managing director before okay that's a different point but we'll come on to that you don't have to first be a horse in order to be a jockey yeah I don't know even I'm going to let that go out side off stump. I'm happy to come back to it. In terms of 22, absolutely right, they rode the crest of that way for a while. And I don't mean that as faint praise. But I do mean that there was a release

after COVID. And the England players were just so, they played joyful cricket and they were having a lovely time after that awful time in COVID. Now, those COVID tests, England didn't moan about very much because there's no complaint culture. And that's understandable. But it was rubbish for them. You know, England played more tests than anyone else during COVID. They were on tour nearly all the time in COVID conditions. They were unhappy, miserable, frightened, all the rest of it. And McCullum harnessed and Stokes harnessed that. Just looking back, there were lots of fourth innings run chases,

which was brilliant and exciting. I don't want to take away from that, but you don't really good sides, don't get themselves into position where they need to set records in the fourth innings, which they did, you know, with India and New Zealand. So I'm not meaning to diminish that, although it sounds like I have a bit, but it was also part of the time and I don't think we've ever been very fair

in the way the previous regime was labelled because they were playing the series here for example just to keep the lights in world cricket I don't think they have any chance I'm not saying that they don't that the previous regime had a chance I think you're being too fair on the previous regime and when people talk about COVID

and England having to come here in restrictions the cricketers that were here four years ago, they had a far better time through COVID, I would say, than many people in the population. I don't buy that as an excuse. Yeah, it was pretty grim. Yeah, I'm not saying it wasn't, but in terms of a general way of life, I will have. I think Australia didn't play any tests away during COVID. But we're not, I'm not just, I'm not saying that an excuse for those guys in terms of the COVID restrictions. Okay. I just want to give context. But what I think we need to be really careful not to retrospectively diminish the achievement of turning around

the England team after that period of one defeat in 17, even if they should have been better at kicking on from that point. Sure. The results now are the same, though. Of course. They are losing the series just the same way that they did in India and Australia. I mean, they're identical. It's two-two against India and Australia in England, both for this regime in the previous one. I think, you know, look at the results. They're the same in big series. The point I want to make about individual responsibility and warm up and preparation and why I say that Harry Brook's shot was unacceptable at Lylac Hill

and the way that he approached it, he charged down the track when he hadn't had a day of faith. That is deeply, in my mind, he'd already survived a ramp shot before he'd scored. I think that was about his fourth shot of that style in less than 20 balls. I think that is deeply unprofessional. It was also the second shot he played in the nets at Adler.

at Brisbane. And the point that I would make is that suggests a culture whereby you can say, oh, everyone prepares in different ways, Steph. However, if you have a driving test and you think, oh, well, it's not the real thing,

so I'm just going to, you know, I'm not going to bother doing this. What's the point? This doesn't do it for me. You're not going to learn. You're not going to get right. You're not going to be in the right frame of mind. You're not going to be in the right position

to give yourself a chance. And if there's a culture that exists whereby players feel, oh, well, actually, this is how I best prefer. and how I best prepare is actually, you know, not preparing properly and not practicing. I think people have a right to feel that they're being unprofessional. Yeah, I certainly take that point, whilst in the same framework of saying, I've got no problem with different people thinking they need to do different things.

And I think the question that you asked was a really interesting one of Rob Key, about whether the team have that freedom or the leadership group is too strong at the top. So say somebody felt like they needed to go to Canberra whether they would be able to put up their hands and say, actually, do you know what? I really do want to go and play in that Walmart match. Well, I think one point that's really important is that the majority of this squad only know

test cricket to be played on the field and the culture around the England team. They only know this way. So if you think of the 16 players that are currently in Australia because Mark Wood's gone home, players who would have known a previous regime and realistically who would be playing for England come what may regardless of who was captain coach

or director of cricket it's Ben Stokes, Joe Root and Joffre Archer everyone else either was retained slash saved by this regime or given a debut by this regime so that's all they know and therefore I do wonder I think group think is maybe the

the term that's come up before, has there been enough challenge within the dressing room of the way that England do things? Because if you think when England came from 2-0 down in the last ashes, think of the players that were involved in that, Stuart Broad, Jimmy Anderson, Johnny Birstow, Chris Wokes, Mark Wood, Moines Alley, experienced, grizzled competitors who would have their own views and would be willing, I think, to call things out if they didn't think it was quite right. At the moment, the experienced players in this team are Joe Root, who is a

former captain and is very, very close to Ben Stokes, who I don't think would we want to seem to rock the boat. And he's had to find his own way. Remember the Jasbitt Bumra reverse scoop, and he sort of admitted to us that he felt that he was getting carried away with the way that England play, and he's had to go back to being Joe Root. Joffer Archer

wouldn't, he's just not that sort of character. And then the next most experienced players, as at Crawley and Ollie Pope, who I would argue have not matured as test cricketers with more than 60 caps. So I do think there is an issue of culture and thinking and following to very, very strong characters in leadership positions. What about Nusa? You were there, Stefan.

And there is certainly a sense that perhaps things got out of hand. Rob Key said he wanted to wait until he knew the full details. You were there? Let's get it straight that no one begrudges. England having a break, any sort of break. Australia did it two years ago. Players went across Europe. They did it during this series. I went home to their family. Absolutely. Why do England all need to have a break together? So apart from Joe, he went off to spend time with his family. He was in his own accommodation just on the outskirts of Nusa. So why weren't other players doing that? I would say that that is a break from cricket

rather than a three-line whip of everyone has to be playing football on the beach. And was there one? To play football on beach and yes there was why does that need to be i would say that that is not a break from cricket you're surrounded by cricketers the drinking in noosa again i don't we could have a quite a long conversation about the drinking culture in cricket as a whole and we could talk about cricket's relationship with mental health how people deal with that all those sorts of things i suppose it just comes down to a question of even if you think or you know you've got 10 days between a test match, between two test matches. Is drinking relatively heavily for even one of those days, let alone four, five or six,

is that great preparation when you know that you're going to be facing Mitchell Stark in 40 degree heat a week later? Last night, we heard that Pep Guardiola said he's going to weigh his footballers before and after Christmas. Now, I'm not saying that England need to go to that degree. That, to me, sounds quite extreme. But I'm just talking about at this level of professional sport, there are one percenters, aren't there? And England, on the first morning in Adelaide, they didn't bowl very well, and they dropped a crucial catch.

And I was instantly thinking a week ago, some players were drinking. So look, I wasn't there, and Stefan was. And so I would defer a great deal to his judgment there. I think we're in danger of looking for not saying that Stefan is at all by the way but we are in danger as a sort of culture of looking for shortcuts and I'll say again

I don't see them practicing their throwing and therefore it's not a coincidence that they don't hit the stumps with their throws very much and you think of the importance of throwing in previous Ashes series you know I remember Trotty here in 2010 and all the rest of it just I was also on that 1314 tour

when so many of them are struggling with their mental health and I do think this regime give them a lot of praise for this they're decent people they mean well

and they're trying to ensure that this lot don't have those awful moments where they're stuck in their hotel rooms absolutely been eaten up with regret and anxiety and the pendulum sometimes swings too far

we go to one extreme with the other and we've gone from the sort of Andy Flower quite ferocious at that stage of his career regime to one that is very lax

and actually it was under Trevor Bayliss as well and I don't think these are the fundamental problems that are stopping England winning but the fundamental problems are boring and probably unsurmountable you know because

it seems that I'm contracted to say this whenever I go on the radio I'm going to say the hundred is a hell of a problem in the English season because it prevents England producing spinners and have a championship program that is viable and people will be rolling their eyes at me repeating that

but actually these are the real problems and whether they've had a couple of beers too many I don't know they are 1% as absolutely as you say and there were a couple of times that they did look really quite exhausted but they actually did have their best game

of the series so far after it and I think as I say the pendulum may have swung a bit too far but I like the fact that they're hanging out together and that they're not on antidepressants in their hotel room And that is the reality of how it was by the time they went home in 1314. It all ties together, doesn't it, George?

So put in the 100 and the system to one side. Yeah. The throwing at the stumps and the 1% is in Nusa. They're essentially the same thing. It's where they are a bit, yeah. Because they could have had field in practice while they were in Nusa. Yeah. They could.

Well, Henry and I were once on an England women's tour to the West Indies, where in Jamaica, what just hit Henry's? Was it like a tropical storm? or something. There was a hurricane that they'd just grazed the island. So Mark Robinson set up a field and drill on the beach because they couldn't get out of the hotel. I'm not saying English. And I love that. And Mark

Robinson is the sort of coach who has become out of fashion because he works his team quite hard. So I think look we've got to prevent against an overreaction if this Because we do, don't we swing from one? We swing from one pendulum. And that is a huge problem. And as I say

that's part of the reason why McCullum works so well in that 22 summer when there was just such a relief and such joy. And they absolutely harnished that with Johnny Best. They're playing as only Johnny Besto can, really. And that's brilliant. But I think we need something more sophisticated and nuanced now. It felt a little bit that summer like the post-breakup holiday in Magaloof. Do you know what I mean? There was a sort of not really my life, Henry, but yes. I like the one. You know what I mean, though? That sort of, right, let's have a complete blowout. But you can't do that for four years. We shouldn't. probably.

No. And whether they, yeah, look, some of these things, as I say, that Rob Keyes just said, he spoke very well with great humility and honesty. But Lord Almighty, did he speak the obvious?

I mean, yeah, maybe we should have more specialist coaches. Look, I think we all understand that they wanted to streamline and that maybe were too many people before. And remember,

there was controversy coming here 10, 12 years ago because there was quinoa on the menus that they were supposed to be making. But we have gone too far the other way. What about the sort of lack of certainty in terms of McCullough and Key staying on, Stefan?

That was interesting. Yeah, and I don't think he can provide certainty with their futures of either of them right now. I think, George, would you agree that Ben Stoke should remain as captain? I think he's the natural leader. The only thing I would say is that no trees seem to be growing under his... I think that is definitely a fair point. he is such a strong leader that he is the natural leader yeah i worry that there might be a slight situation about you remember the end of charlotte edwards time in charge of the england

women's team yeah i worry slightly that there's there is that situation in terms of key and mccullum the way that it should work in these situations is the director of cricket has a big say over the future of the coach and at the moment the director of cricket probably doesn't know if he's going to be in post for a prolonged period of time whether or not there is enough time for that to be sorted between now and the T20 World Cup. I think that probably depends a little bit on what happens in these last two test matches. And then after that, we shall wait and see.

Like I say, it should be the way round that Director of Cricket is in post first then the coaches decided. So if McCullum is saying that he wants to stay and if Rob Kear is saying that he wants to stay, well, that will all come out in the washer, right? Just before we say goodbye, we know there's going to be changes in the Australian side.

line is out of the series, hamstring operation for him, Pat Cummins, continued management following that back injury. So Steve Smith named as captain in the squad that has been selected. What about England changes, George? What can they do? What should they do? Well, I haven't been out to training because we've been, you know, busy talking to Rob Keeper. I would wonder whether Drewfer Archer would play this one, whether you need him to. He's just played three. Do you want him to play three back to back, which these last three effectively are? But, you know, without knowing how he is and stuff, it's not really, look, and I would definitely bring Bethel in. I'd bring Bethel in at three. But you're only picking from the

squad there, and then maybe you'd look at Potts. I wouldn't play Casts, and I'd be very reluctant to play Archer, just in terms of looking after, they bought a lot of overs. So maybe Potts and Atkinson come back in, I thought tongue bowled well in our previous game. And as for Sherib, Because I don't want to avoid the difficult thing. I'm not sure I'd have been picking show him. I've seen him bowling in the nets. I've been scared for him. They hit the ball so hard back at him.

I mean, there was a period where Ben Stokes kept breaking net bowlers on tour because he hits the ball so hard and they couldn't get out of the way. Honestly, he's absolutely been murdered when he's bowling. So he's not bowling very well. And if he plays, he doesn't offer anything with the bat. He doesn't offer anything in the field. It's a real issue. but you go back to that there's an old joke someone stops their car and asks for directions

and the answer is you don't want to start from here that's where english cricket is with spin bowling i don't know i know the answer to this but i think this might illustrate a point that you've been making in the practice area outside can't is there enough space to do fielding don't think there is it's just nets yeah you'd have to do it there on the main square i think seen any fielding yet today no so it's one of the thing i i bore henry to tears about this across a tour of ordinarily we would be waiting for a slip catching drill now

to get a... And if you remember the 15 Ashes you know, the incredible Stokes catch off broad and Trevor Bayless took them to Spain. That's the only thing they did on that trip, wasn't it?

They had a quizzing fancy dress and they worked on their field and they just drilled slip catchers. And it should be a non-negotiable. A thing about... Not just catching because they do work on their catching a bit to be fair.

I don't see them working on their fielding very much. I don't think... You know that net. thing, football net they put behind the stamps. I don't think they've got one on the tour. Every other side. Kids' sides have that. But what we would ordinarily be looking for now

effectively two days out before the test because they won't really do much on Christmas Day. We would be looking for a slip cord and taking catches and we would be looking if Jacob Bethel is in it. Exactly right. We would be seeing if Jacob Bethel is standing probably at Gully in place of Olly Pope because Ben Duckett seems have gone from Gully after the

catches that he dropped in Brisbane. That's what we'd be looking for right now and then not here. But equally, you know, I think Duck, it's a terrific player. I'm a bit worried about the drop catches.

Yeah. I think he got some good balls and actually one that kept low. In the last test, he played a shocking shot, no way around it. But I think,

you know, he's got to a stage where I worry about him because of his fielding because he's so much better than he's showing. But there's no reserve opener. Well, why is there no reserve opener? And to be honest,

the more you look at it, why on earth is Liam Dorsson not here? So again and again, you go back to selection decisions which have been, I don't know, it seems that they don't like

people who are grumpy or unreasonable. Would you get in, George? No, far too unreasonable, aren't I? But, you know, you've got to, yeah. I think they've left, it's a fair point that they have left themselves somehow with a squad with very few options. And we've talked about this before, but if Jordan Cox is here, he carries, covers a number of bases for them.

Dawson covers a number of bases. Would KP get in? as now? Yeah, well. No, because they don't... I think McCallum's got this thing where he likes to be the alpha male in the room. And I think really strong people like to be challenged.

Back to just at the team that would play. Joffa Archer will play one out of the last two, I would have thought. Whether or not he wants to play this one because he's worked so hard and he wants to play in front of 100,000 people in front of the boxing day test. I think he's earned that right to sort of give them a read on his fitness. If he plays this week, he won't play in Sydney.

but yeah I agree with George I think it's got to be Bethel for Pope I don't think showy Bashir can play and then after that you're working out your three seamers in terms of probably depending on Joffra I think Matthew Potts deserves a go because England have not hit the top of

off stump often enough and he has a bowler who will do that yep thank you very much indeed right plenty to get stuck into there do it again a four years yeah see you here same time same place honestly from unreasonable over there and grumpy over there and me Henry Moran thank you very much for listening

to the Test Match Special podcast. Don't forget, play gets underway. 1130. Christmas Day night here from the MCG will be on air just before 11pm on BBC Sounds, 5 Sports Extra, the Ashes Daily debrief with Alex Hartley on the iPlay on the iPlay every single day as well. And if you are such Ashes on BBC Sounds, you'll in short you never miss a thing throughout the series from all of our Ashes content here in Australia and beyond. It may all feel a bit too much, but it's Christmas. So what's not to enjoy about that? George, Stefan, thank you very much indeed.

And thank you so much for listening. We'll speak to you soon. TMS at the Ashes. This winter, cricket's oldest rivalry is reignited. England and Australia do battle to compete for the Ashes. Hear live ball-by-ball commentary on five sports extra And get analysis and reaction of every day's play With the Test Match Special podcast

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