The Ashes: Where did England go wrong?
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00:31Listen to Football Daily on Spotifyto Football Daily on BBC.comor wherever you get your podcasts.You're listening to the TMS podcastfrom BBC Radio 5 Live.Hello, welcome to the TMS podwhere for the next hourwe'll talk England losing the ashes in record time
00:53after they went 3-0 down to Australia in Adelaide.And joining us to do that,Former England spinner Phil Tuftanil, ex-Ozzie bowler, Jason Gillespie and England batter David Miller.Tough as I joined Five Live nearly 16 years ago.So how many of these do you think, how many of these do you think we have done in that time?Five, maybe?Yeah, yeah.I mean, it's been a little bit disappointing, hasn't it?
01:21But at least we got on the plane with confidence, you know.at least we had that little sort of shredof flicker to hang on tobut yeah no it's been a little bitdisappointing hasn't itwe've flickered for sureand we've had some situationswhere if we've only just sort of
01:39nailed them downthings might have been a little bit differentbut it's difficult down here mateit really is you know these guysthey know their own conditionsthey've got a world-class bowling attackand David will sort of likementioned that I'm sure and it's just difficult
01:55you know, when we came down there,we had Warner McGraw and Gillespiesitting over there, I can see himsmile in there, looking at me through the Zoom callto try and get away.And this time they've got the likes ofCummins and Lyon and allthese kind of guys, and it's just tough.
02:11But, yeah, I think England will be disappointedas well. You know, they'll be verydisappointed because they... I would hope so.I mean... Well, yes.But it's not as easy as that.No, I know.You know, sitting there. You know, it'sdifficult. These guys know how to
02:27perform. And I think what they did as wellbecause I think they werea bit worried, you know.They were worried that, you know, they had some injuryproblems and some sort of, you know,some chinks in the armour in that top orderand what have you. And they were concernedand we
02:43kind of gave it to them a littlebit in a funny sort of way.I don't know how manyyears you could go back memory-wiseDavid here. ButJonathan Agnew in his articlefor BBC Sportdescribed it as the most
02:57disappointingthat he can rememberand maybe that disciplineyeah but maybemaybe part of that disappointmentDavid stems fromthe hopeactually before they went
03:10yeah definitelyI think the timesthat I went especiallyI think if we were pretty honestto ourselves we weren't as good a teamas what the Aussies wereI think this timewhere you look at where Australia were
03:20with injuriesa few question marks over therebatting line upwho was going to play, who wasn't going to playthat England actually had a really settled teamover the last three years and we all thoughtthe way they'd played and the way they'd approached itthat they had a plan and they were going to be
03:36very competitive coming over this year.So I think the disappointment for them all and for usis that we thought this was going to be closer than what it wasand it hasn't even looked like it was going to be close at all.So there is Jason then a sense of disappointmentfrom the Aussie perspective that it's been so easy.Yeah, look, I think there's a little bit of disappointmentI suppose that hasn't been I suppose more of a more of a challenge but England let's not forget
04:01England have had their opportunities you know no more so than lunchtime day two 99 runs infront you know for me that was a that was a key moment in the whole series to be perfectly honestI mean ultimately England have underperformed because they're underprepared it is as aseasy as you like as simple as you like just keep it as as simple as thatunder-prepared, under-performed,because this is actually a very talented side.It's going into the series, if you remember.England were far more settled than the Australian side.
04:35So, yeah, so they'll see this as a bit of disappointment to mine.Okay, let's get on to the preparation,and to set this up, although Jason has already done that,let's hear from Brendan McCollum with Jonathan Agnew after the match.I'll acknowledge that, and there's no exact science.but obviously we haven't wonso therefore you point back to things you could have doneor might have done differently
05:00and say if you're in that same situation next timewould you make changeand there are the conversationsyou've got to mull over in your own headand obviously around the squad as wellI guess you're talking about preparationsthat sort of pre-first test preparationyou would do differently again
05:13yeah probably I mean not just thatbut also the five intense training daysleading into Brisbanewhen we knew it was going to be hotand I think there's just a few thingsthat you look at retrospectivelyand you've got to be careful because you need convictionin what your methods are but you're also not
05:28too ignorant to admitthat if you haven't quite got something right and I'll putmy hand up on that and that's your job as coachis to try and you try and get performanceon the field and then when you don't get performance you look backon some things which you might not have quite got rightand I was confident that we had it right butobviously we didn't because we haven't played as well as we should have
05:45now the preparation is going to bedebated and discussed and Jasonhas already mentioned it and Brendan McCollumgave his answer theremy question to youPhil on theirpreparationis they decided to do
06:02things what's worked for themin previous overseas seriesmight not have been the wayother England teams have done it when they've gone downunder but let's be honestnot much has worked preparation wisefor any England team that's gone down underso what was wrong what is wrong
06:18in trying something different as they didthat has worked for them on previous overseas serieswell yeah and that's what they were thinking you know we used to play everyone we used to play theyou know we used to play the farmers 11s we used to play all the 11s you know we won nothing either sobut i think as he said there he's put his hand up there and he said if before you're going toperth and before you go to brisbane sort of bouncy australian pitches i think that you knowyou should have perhaps had a warm-up game at the whacker or played a little bit moreharder cricket um if you can get those kind of games
06:51you know, I mean, the sort of counterpoint to that is that those games don't exist anymore.You know, you're not playing the opposition that you need to play for a warm-up gamebefore a huge sort of test series.And so I think that that's going to be addressed, you know, from the hierarchy, so to speak.Yeah, I think they got that wrong.Perth and Brisbane are completely different kind of pitches to what England,English batsmen are used to.Having said that, you've got to adjust.
07:21to your game and you've got to realize that as wellbut it would have been betterand Brendan has stuck his hand up thereand said listen we should have had some decent practiceon some fast bouncy pitches just to getinto that sort of hardened grooveOkay if whatwould you have done for preparation Jason
07:38I think the questionfeels alluded to it ishow long outfrom that first testwas questionsasked or requests toutilise facilities inPerth, i.e. the WACA, how far out? Because if this series has been three years in the making,
07:57which is all I've heard from the ECB, if you're planning three years ahead, surely you're bookingfacilities well in advance. There hasn't been any clarity on exactly when the questionwas asked about utilising, for instance, the WACA facilities. I know India booked the WACAwell in advance, well before any Sheffield Shield or women's BVL schedules were put in place.So the BCCI came in and booked it all and did it eight to 10 day block where they hadcenter wicket training scenarios.They had all the nets available.They had little simulations on the fast bouncy surface.
08:46But I'd love to know when England first.made that first phone callor first email aboutright can we lock in these facilities at thesetimes because I'm not surethat was done very much in advanceYeah, Chappas I think even theBarmy Army had a game
09:03at the Wackett so I think they're even moreThey were better prepared than theEngland side. The interestingthing David here is thatpre-series we dida show like this andMichael Vaughn was sitting next to me at the timeand I think Tufters was doing it as well
09:19And he saidIt wasn't necessarily who the games were against in the warm-upsHe said his worryAbout that game against the LionsWas that it was going to be played on a surfaceThat was going to be nothing likeWhat they were going to then have to contend withOnce they got to Perth
09:41And you as a batterWill presumably go along with thatAnd understand thatfully um personally as a batter i want to be playing and preparing in the conditions that i'mplaying in you know that for me if i was to put my hand up if someone was to say what would youlike to do i'm playing at perth in the first one i'd like to prepare on a wicket that is similarto as perth as what i'm going to get on um i think historically we always uh would go intoperth initially and train at perth and then move to brisbane for the first test because it was
10:10i think it's an easier flight and then you get used to the bouncy of wickets and you move toBrisbane. This first test was inPerth and they had the opportunity to dothat. So it is astrange decision that they didn't bookeverything that they did and they didn'tplan ahead, as you said, three years in themaking. All we've ever heard for the last three years
10:27is about the ashes and we're getting this one fit for theashes and we're going to build for this and we can prepare for thatand to miss an opportunity like thatin such a big series I think is a bit of a schoolboyerror and as a playerI would have liked to have prepared in those conditions.Having saidthat, having said that everyone
10:43knows what the conditions are in Perth and Brisbane, you know, as a batter, David, you know,you know, don't drive on the up, you know, you don't need to have endless nets to knownot to drive on the up at Perth. I was talking to some of the Australians, even theShield sides, is this right? Does he even the Shield sides go to Wacker and sort of getrolled over by the Western Australians, don't they? Well, it's a tough place to play. There'sno question of that, but it's very obvious in Shield cricket. You know,No, in Perth, you don't try to play with a half of that outside, off-stump, to the offside, to a lengthfall.That's just cricket 101 in Australia.
11:22That's what you don't do in Perth.And unfortunately, from an England perspective, that's exactly what we saw in Perth in that first test.Yeah, so it doesn't matter necessarily sometimes if you, you know, you can have all the nets and all the hard cricket as well.But if you keep playing on the out of outside, yeah, it's not like it was a surprise.Oh, no one knew this.Crikey, Mickey Stewart told us thisabout 30 years ago.But that brings me back to the preparation point, David, really.
11:51I mean, you can understand England going,I think the last five series abroad,they've had a camp not in the countrythat they've been playing in, haven't they?And then they've arrived quite late,and they've won four of the first,in those series, they've won four of the five first tests.So there is a method that has worked for them.
12:13That's my point, I suppose.Yeah, and that's what Brendan McCullum was alluding to there.It's something that they've done well over the last two or three yearswhere they've gone to overseas trips.They've prepared a certain way and they want to stick with what they thought would work.But when you're preparing for so long for such a big seriesand you put all your eggs in one basket for such a series,you want to give yourself the best opportunity to perform in those conditions.
12:37My argument is I don't think they should have gone toNew Zealand. The white ball plate should have gone to New Zealand. I think they should have comeearlier to Australia, got acclimatized and given themselves more time to prepare. And yes, it's notall about nets. It's not about hitting 1,000 balls every day in the nets. It's just gettinguse to the conditions. It's understanding what works at certain grounds. You know, Brisbane andPerth is different to Adelaide. Adelaide's a slower wicket. It's easier to score runs. It's easy tostay in at Adelaide. Wacker can be fast scoring, but you have to get used to the wicket. Those first20, 30 balls is understanding how you want to go about it.
13:10And that, I guess, the longer you're in the country, the more you get to, you get usedto the conditions, you ask people that have played in those conditions, you get peoplein that are able to explain to you how to work and how to score runs in those conditions.And I think they've just missed that opportunity.I think also it's execution, chappas, you know, it's execution as well.You know, as you said, you can net and net and net.What's that famous story about, you know, Satchentendant.Hulk are not getting any runs
13:38and then puts away the cover driveand then scores 100,do you know what I mean?So even the best in the worldhave to think about itand just to not have itsort of ingrained in your mindas a batter and a bowler in certain
13:53different conditions, you know,you're going to come a cropperso it's execution.It's about being precise in what you doand I'm afraid England haven't been precise.What would you,how would you have felt, David,if you were in the squad,
14:07having lost the first two testsknowing that this noosa trip was then planned.Would you have been uncomfortablewith the optics of that trip?And I do take into account hereas I ask you this question,Ben Stokes as sort of, you know,everything being viewed with the benefit of hindsight.
14:28Look, I think there's a balance.Personally, I'm not a massive drinker,so I'd probably avoid sitting on the beachand having a couple of beers in public.I think the frustrating thing with all of that is,I think England we're aware of what Australia is likefrom a media point of view.They understand how big the ashes are.
14:45They understand the scrutiny under.Now, I fully support the players getting away,having a day off, having one or two days away.I fully support that.You're not robots.You're human beings.You have to get out of the hotel.You have to be able to live a life.
14:57Yes, they've lost some cricket in two and three days.They haven't performed how they want,but they have to be able to get away without that scrutiny.But sometimes you have to be smart.with how you do it. One or two days and then disappearing maybe onto a golf course and doingthings on a private side. I think that helps a bit. But look, it sounds like this was allplanned. This whole trip was planned. Tenusa was planned way in advance. Everything was part of theirplan to win the ashes. Obviously, the first two tests hadn't gone to plan and they stuck to that.
15:26Whether they should have changed, whether they should have maybe adapted that a little bit and maybecut it shorter by a day or avoided the public away for a day, I think they could probably look at thatin future. Do you have the interesting thing that standsout for me in all of this, Jason, and thisis Stefan Shemelt, the BBC's chiefcricket reporter who writes an article on this,is that over the course of that timethat they were in Nusa,
15:48the conditioning coach invitedthe entire group for a runalong the... But this is important, Phil,I think. Invited the entire groupfor a run along the coast at quarter to8 in the morning. Yeah. AndJamie Smith and Sherbashir andJosh Tung were the only players to
16:04turn out for that. And you talked to soany professionalsports teamsif it'san inviteor optionalit's probablyadvisable to
16:14turn uplookI've alwaysbelievedyou knowoptional isoptionalif it's not
16:24optionaldon't sayit's optionalbecauseplayerswill take the optionyou knowStefan made some
16:32great pointsin his articleI read thatthroughyou knowI just think overall, the whole Nusa truth,I think that would have made point of it.The optics of it were horrific.
16:45And the reason I say that is,because England got rolled in two days in Perth,there was an opportunity to do some,get some cricket with the pink ball in Canberra.And the reason for not going there was saidbecause the conditions were so foreignto what they were going to get in Brisbane.Well, the conditions were pretty foreign
17:06before that match in Perth as welland yet that was deemed acceptableand so England chosenot to go to Canberrato get adjusted under thelights with the pink ball. Admittedly it was a bitcooler there. I was actually therewith the ABC
17:23commentating on that game. Yes it was a little bitcooler and yeahthe conditionswere a little bit different butJosh Tongue still turned upMatthew Potts played as did JacobBethel. Josh Tongue actually bowled very well.And he got to bowl pink crew ball
17:39under lights,got 20 sets of overs in.And you can't tell me that that did not benefitJosh Tongue because I thoughtwhen he got the opportunity in Adelaide, I thought he bowledbeautifully. So,you know, and a lot of the opticsabout that knows of truth because
17:57in Canberra, not many of theplayers had actuallyplayed a pink ball game.So I'll be honestI found that absolutely staggering that more of the England side,particularly after getting beaten inside two days,weren't there in Canberra.It was a two-day game.
18:15It was a two-day game.It wasn't as it was a four-dayer,and they had all that time spare.And I personally just think England missed a trick there.Let's widen this out, and this could go in,this could go in all sorts of different directionswithin the same discussion.Because this is about talking about the bowling attack,
18:34the bowling options.It's about the selection of the squad, and it involves county cricket as well.And it's a huge subject, and we could go in any direction.But when you look at the squad, Phil, and I read this in one of the papers this morning,going into the Ashes, the main spinner selected didn't have a county contract.The backup batter hasn't got a first-class century.And the wicket keeper doesn't wear the gloves for his count.what does does that tell you thinking outside the box does that tell you something else
19:15well you pick you you pick on talent and you pick on field but you've also got a pick on a body ofwork that you've done haven't you similar as that for your county that's what you thinkcounty cricket is all about and that's why it's there really um i think jamy smith i thinkmight be a little bitdifferent but I think they'vebacked themselves into a hole withShouid Bashir and I feel for himI feel for the lad really
19:41I don't listen I haven't been privy to how he's beengoing and how his confidence isaround the group and what have you butif you're ever going to pick a spinnerand he is your specialistspinner he's surelygot to play Adelaide it's as simple as thatand they didn't play him so I don't know
20:00what he's like you know in the backyou know, behind the scenes and what have you.But if I was show with Bashir,I would have been absolutely fuming that that is...You've got to pick him, otherwise, why is he here?I can't necessarily see him playing at the MCG.I can't necessarily see him playing at the SCG.So he was sort of...
20:20He's been sort of groomed, doesn't he?And he's done all right for England.He's taken wickets for England.He's done well.And so they've got themselves into this sort of like no-win situationwhen now all of a sudden he's become sort ofunselectableand that's not a good thing
20:35you know you've gotyeah I don't know whether that's selectionor you know who's actually sort of likewho was responsiblefor him not playing at AdelaideI can't understand itwhat do they dodo you look at it David and go what are they doing
20:51well I was surprised with the Adelaide selectionI thought they should have had a front line spinnerthere there in Sydneyfrom my experiencespinners playbig role. So it'd be interesting to see what they doat Sydney if they do bring himin. To be fair, my experience in Australia,
21:09spin plays a big role. You look at historicallyyou've had Shane Warren and you've hadNathan Lyon who've taken bucketloads of wickets inAustralia and I think it complements thepace bowling attacks.So I was surprised. To be fair, I can seewhy they went to Will Jacks. I thought...
21:25David, other spinnershave not taken too many wickets there. I mean, you've mentionedtwo of the greats there.I think we did have a look at the stats, you know, opposition spinners come in, you know,they are more of a holding role than a wicket-taking option, really, sorry.Yeah, and on that, it's whether England need that with the pace bowlers that they've got.They've got guys that they want to come in an attack.They're not worried about economy rates.
21:51So somewhere they have to be able to control the rate.And if that means they need a spinner to do that, then they have to pick the best spinner to be able to do that.They obviously thought Will Jax, who is a fine cricket,someone that could bat eightand give them a few overs with a spinto balance their attackwas the right option.I don't think in Adelaide
22:10that was the right option.Maybe with the pink ballor maybe at Perthwhere they thought they weren't going to bowlmuch spin,different story.But I think a front-line spinnerplays a big part.
22:20You're not going to be a part-time spinner in Australiaand rip up any trees.Yeah, be successful.It's as simple as that.You're not even going to be ableto do a holding role.Sorry, dude.No, I was just going to jump in.
22:34Look, I think it's missing the whole point.We can talk about spinners, whatever.The Will Jacks selection was because England aren't confident in their top six batting.That is a bit because what they did say,Ben Stokes at the postmatch said, oh, the toss was important.I mean, gee, if you're picking Will Jacks,you're not thinking day four and five to bowl.for victory by batting first
23:03you can't be becauseand actually JasonJason Jitin Patel said that in onein one of you know one of thewe'll send an assistant coach out to do themedia afterwards he saidwe were we were backedinto a corner by
23:19the batters in selecting Will Jackyeahso for me that againthere's more mixed messaging coming out of this campbecause Ben Stokes saidit would have loved the opportunity to bat forBut if you're winning the toss and batting first with that lineup, it doesn't make sense.That line up, you would bowl first every day of the week because you're backing yourself to chase
23:43because you're not backing your spinner because, I mean, Will Jacks, as Darwin said, look, he's a flying cricketer.But, I mean, he went at five and over, five and a half and over.But that's okay because he's a part-time spinner.That's what part-time spinners do.I aren't good enough to go to a half three and over.Um, yes, Phil, sorry, mate.Yeah, no, no, and I agree and ended up bowling virtually the most overs in each,bowling most overs in each innings.
24:10So, what are you asking that of your part-time spinner?If you end up bowling him, I think it was the most overs in both innings,and he's gone, he's gone for 200.Now, even simple mathematics is if you put a full-time spinner in there,you can knock 100 runs off of that.Yeah, and on that, the last series you played,I know it was a pink ball test,England didn't actually play a spinner at Adelaide,
24:33and they had Olly Robertson bowling off spin at one pointbecause it started to turn and they needed a spinner.So it's almost like they didn't learn from the mistakes from the last series,which were actually spin does play a role at certain grounds,and you need your best spinner to play there.And actually, that example, David, is probably the best.I mean, unforgivable is going overboard.But when we talk about preparation, actually, on what goes into it,
24:58then it's stuff like that, you would find it.hard to believe that they hadn't gone back and analysed that,given everything that goes into a modern-day cricket team.Yeah, and Dizzy mentioned that there,the selection has been confusing because so far under Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullum,they pick the team that they think is the best team to win that specific test.But they've come over to Australia,and they seem like they've just tried to fill a couple of gaps
25:21and try to lengthen the batting and try and keep staying the game for as long as possible.We're actually, what's your best opportunity to win the game?In Australia, you need to take 20 wickets to win the game.It's as simple as that.You can score 400 runs, whatever you are.If you cannot bowl Australia out twice, you are wasting your time.And they have to give themselves the best opportunity to do that.By picking the bowlers, that can do that.
25:41Yeah, but then in defence of that as well,we've all been there on tours down under, you know.You don't, you get rolled out and you start going crikey.How can I sort of like strength on the back end of the innings and what have you?So, you know, or can he take the gloves?Is Ollie Pope going to take the gloves?Dewey, Stewey, can you, we can keep captain and back, you know, and open the batting?It very quickly unravels.
26:09So, guys, I've always felt if you look into strengthen the batting, I just wonder psychologicallyand subconsciously, your top six, potentially, even if only one of them thinks that,they might just relax a bit, go, oh, well, we've got a bit of extra support down the batty order.Whereas, do you just say, no, this is our top six, this is our keeper, and this is our best bowling attack totake 20 wickets.I think you just,sometimes we can just get too cuteand overthink things sometimes.
26:36Cricket's actually quite a simple game.And sometimes we just get confused.We look at statistics.We look at,look at all sorts of different metrics.Sometimes, yes, you have statistics.They're a tool in order to help you make good decisions, right?But ultimately, you need to look at what's in front of you.
26:54You need to either look up and there's conditions.We might have a bowl.but ultimately you look at the surface that's in front of youand you make a call you're taking into account the statsand any other statistical metric you wantbut ultimately you look at what's in front of hereand you have your basic plan of how you want to go about itback your top six to get the job done with the bat
27:19and back your bowlers to take 20 wicketswhatever that structure looks like is it 3 and 1is it 3 and 1 with an all-rounder or is it 2 and 2yeah and if you are looking for a spinnerto do a holding role who can hold a batthey picked the wrong front line spinner didn't theysimple as that for meyou feel that show ib has been sort of groomed
27:41for this tour tall high release bouncewell you can understand him not playing at perthand you can understand him perhaps not playing at brisbane and everythingbut then just adelaide was where he had to spinor you've got to have a look for someone else i'm afraidso what's they've been doing thatWhat have they been doing then, Phil?I'm not quite sure they've backed themselves into a bit of a hole with the spin bowler.
28:03Simple as that.If you want someone like that, you look at a Jack Leeks or a Liam Dawson or something like that.Then if it does turn, they can come into the game.But if not, they can work away at an end and perhaps go at two and a half, three and a half and overand pick up the odd wicket and then bolster the batting a little bit.They backed themselves into a bit of a hole with showy.I feel for him, actually, because he's going to be having a tough old time at the moment.But then he is one of a few who have sort of appeared to come out of nowhere
28:32and into the England setup, David, isn't he?And therefore, you know, Liam Dawson is a, you know, a stalwart of county cricket.His figures back up his ability.And yet it feels, it feels, doesn't it, to a lot of people.that England always want to go outside the box.Now, what does that say to county cricketers?That's a very good question, actually.You know, Liam Dawson played the last test in England,
29:08you know, at Manchester he played,and then suddenly wasn't on the tour.They picked someone who hadn't played for two years,which was surprising.It took me a bit by surprise.I would have probably had, well, Liam Dawson would have been in my 15going to the ashes, someone who can bat a bit,gives everything,
29:24something but different.You've got Joe Root.He can bowl you a few offies if you need it in a game.But your best spinner holding role in Australia probably would have been Liam Dorson right now.So as Tava said, I feel for Bashir.But England have been quite consistent with the selections over the last couple of yearsin the case of identifying someone on what they look like, what the attributes are,and identifying what they think is going to be a good international cricketer.
29:49So they've stuck with that game plan.They've stuck with how they've gone with that selection.It's worked at times.But as you said, you're looking at a squad now where you've got a spinner who they're not picking.They've got a guy who hasn't scored a first class 100 batting at threeor potentially how coming in to replace a batter if they drop someone for the fourth and the fifth test.And it's how you can keep producing county crickets to want to play for Englandif it doesn't really matter what you do.
30:12Well, and the director of cricket, and again, this isn't with hindsight, Jason.This is a year ago probably we had this discussion on the show.Well, maybe in the summer, so maybe six months ago.Director of County Cricket said to meyou are getting players thinking at county cricketwell what is the point of me racking upthis number of wickets or this number of runsin Red Bull Cricket because it isn't going to get me
30:38into the England team so actually I might go and lookat Whiteball Cricket because it will be more lucrativehere there and everywhereYep, it's spot onand that's lookI think Phil touched on it just beforeyou pick, you identify talentyou know, reviews, talent attributes, whatever, and that's fine.
30:57But there's got a bit of body of evidence, as Phil said.You've got to find that balance.You can't just go purely on statistics.And, you know, because then you don't need selectors.You just look at the county championship.You go, right, who's scored the most rounds, who's taken the most wickets,and pick a team.That's not how you pick international teams,
31:17because there aren't, and with all due respect to good county players,there's good championship players.They don't necessarily have the attributes or the game to be successful at the next level.They're essentially playing their test matches at county level because that's their level.And then you've got the attributes.So we've seen over the last couple of years, England, have kicked on attributes.So show them, Bashir's one.Josh Hull is another one, you know, guys that haven't got any sort of evidence of work at the lower level,
31:50which can be construed or seen as a bit of.of a slap in the face of the county game.Look, I've been involved in county cricket over the years.I played a bit.I coached a bit.It's a much maligned competition for some reason by the ECB.I think it's a lot better than it's given credit for.Particularly some of the battles,
32:15and, you know, Darwin would have played this.Some of the battles in Division I is good quality, hard first-class cricket.I just feel the ECB sometimesjust doesn't give it the love that it deserves.Yeah, Jay, just a point on that.I mean, I've been doing some work with the ABCand it's been fascinating listening to the other side of it as well.Darren Lehman said that sometimes you're in that bubble, aren't you?
32:42You're in the battle and what have youand the whole team and what.Darren Lehman said, well, sometimes you've got to have the selectorsor the group, someone, a fresh set of eyesthat hasn't been involved.in the fray, come out and say, right,show-ib has to play.You know what I mean?
32:57So-Hib has to play at Adelaide,because this is what we've picked him for.Is that sort of correct?Yeah, and Darren has said a number of timeswhen he was coach of Australia,that the selectors have said,our job is to help improve the team,and this is the way we want to get,
33:16this is your 12,and you need to pick an 11 that this guy's going to play.He used a couple of examples when he was coached.I think Mitchell Marsh was picked to play in Perth.The head of Peter Hanscombe and Darren and Michael Clarkwho was captain at the time.I actually said, no, we want to keep the same team.We're 2-0 up, but Greg Chappell was a selector
33:34and he's gone, well, no, our job here is to make the team better.So we're going to pick Mitchell Marsh.And Mitchell Farsh, I think, went on and got 150in that test match.And there was another example with picking Adam Bojus.But I think what I found really fascinatinghas been Darren Lehman had his first.season coaching Northamptonshire in the county championship in 2025.
33:58He doesn't even know who the selectors are.He's never seen a selector or spoken to a selector.And he's a former Aussie coach who's in county cricket.He would think someone would have had a conversation with him about conditions,about team selection and that going to Australia.I actually found that absolutely staggering.And the reason I find that staggering is I coached South Australia for four years upuntil last year.
34:24And every Sheffield gamethat South Australia played,there was either a selector on dutyor a selector would ringand speak to myselfspecifically just about the game,about the team,about a couple of players
34:39that they're keeping an eye on.And there was just really clearcommunication processesand the way Darren's speaking,Darren Lehman,that doesn't seem to be happeningin the English game.Were those clear communication
34:52processes here when you were coaching here or has it always been um less communication here thanthere no no so when i was coaching at this i use the example at yorkshire um 2012 to 2016 um ii'd have regular contact with selectors um they're like the coaches so we would just check inand just say how's such and such going,how they're going and the like,and enjoying watching so-and-so bat or bowl.And it was just, it wasn't a weekly chatter.It was just every now and again, just checking it.
35:34But also, you are eyes and ears,not just for your own team,but who you may have seen in opposition as well.Absolutely.And a lot of that was that.I remember been at Yorkshire,and a couple of the players floating aboutI'll notice that you guys played
35:51this team the other weekand there's a couple of young players therewith any thoughts on these guysand it was just like verylaid back chatslike very casual conversationsbut it's communication isn't itand you know you can't over communicate
36:09tough as you said this several timestonight about how difficult it isto tour AustraliaSo Glenn McGrath in his BBC Sport article today, which you can find on the website, says,if this long winless streak is not down to ability, it must be down to mentality.So often I hear the English talk about how difficult it is to come to Australia,getting sledge at the airport or in restaurants.England players talk about having to take on the entire country rather than just the team.
36:41Can England players get themselves into a state of mind where they relish a tour of Australia,rather than talking it up as the hardest thing they will ever do.There is certainly a difference in mindset between the two countries.Does he have a point?Well, I think when you say, you know, how difficult it is to tour Australia,it's because they just know how to play on their pitches better than we do.You know what I mean?And they're grooved.
37:09I mean, as David was saying, look at that bowling attack.Look at our bowling attack when we did that.we were we were you know so it's not mentality no well I don't think it is there's a little bit of that and and that has to be broken at some stage I mean you know I think it was like 17 or 18 test matches or something we haven't won a game here for you know I will say something though the last test match the last test match at Adelaide was our best worst test match we've ever played it was the closest we've ever got in about 25 years so you know there is progress therethere is progress there but I think it's just about I mean look at the way Pat Cummings bowled I mean it was it was an absolute masterclass he hasn't you talk about preparation he's been injured he hasn't had a game of cricket and he comes back and he bowls that top of off stump line doesn't loot it okay leave that area I mean it's just so so difficult to play against when we I think sometimes try to I think sometimes you come to Australia and you want to face them you know you want to stand up you want towant to put your flag in the ground and say, right, you know, there's big crowds.We're going to go and show you sometimes, you know, there are different ways to skin a cat.And I think sometimes, you know, you've got to be a little bit defensive.You've got to just hit the top of off-stum in trying to bounce him out.
38:31What is the point that keep trying to bounce out, Travis' head?Because he's going to win you for 190.You know what I mean?Sometimes you've got to bore them out.But I think sometimes we lose our patience in Australia.And that, you know, and we're not.That's the one criticism I will have about this England team.I don't think they're a patient team.
38:48You know, you can't win a test match.I know it's an old saying,but you can't win a test match in the first session,but you can lose it.Did you think, David, when you toured there,I'm going to relish this,or this is going to be the hardest thing that I've done?Well, the first time I went to Australia,
39:06I remember Stuart Broad speaking to meabout how tough it was going to Australia,how the abuse you get and the media and, you know, I actually didn't think I was going to come back aliveby the way he was talking to me.I nearly didn't.But after that first test and after, I mean, we actually had, funny enough, talking about preparation,the first time we went, we had, I think, three or four warm-up games,the second time we went because of COVID, we only had one token warm-up game amongst ourselves.
39:33So the results were the same.So I guess there was no past experience to say, apart from the Strauss Tour, this is what works.But after that first day at the Gabber in 2017, I think we were 250 for three overnight,it actually felt like, actually, you know what, this is just a normal game of cricket.It's not what everyone's built it out to be.We weren't getting abused it by the crowd.We weren't in trouble.And then after that, the wheel started to fall off.
39:57Australia beat you, and we did some silly things.And, you know, we were in the press doing some things.And suddenly then you bunker down.And then it becomes everyone's on you.And then it just feels like everything suddenly is sort of against you in Australia.It's how you manage that, I think, is going to be how England will win test matches moving forward in Australia over the years.Yeah, just to counter that a little bit, though, Chabby.You know, Australia haven't won since 2001 in England.
40:22No, and that was what I was going to say to Jason.Does it go the other one?Absolutely.Yeah, look, listen to both you guys talk.Look, for me, I think Glenn makes pretty valid points about the mentality.side of it.There is an air of pessimism at timesthat when you hear from England players
40:46and even some English commentatorsthey talk about how difficult it is.Well, no kidding.It's test cricket.Test cricket is hard work.But you find a way.Because if you're talking abouthow hard it is all the time
41:02and how it's so much of a challenge,you're already thinking the end result.You're not actually thinking aboutwhat your process is in order tosucceed. And I think Glenn's point is quite valid. You know, going to England, we knew it wasgoing to be a challenge. We always knew, even when, you know, when I played the first part of mycareer, or the first part of my career, we had a little bit of success over there. We knew we weregoing to cop it in the media. We knew we were going to cop it from the crowds. I mean,
41:30I've copped more abuse from English crowds than anywhere in the world. But you just embrace it.You have a choice, right? You have a choice. You can either.to mope around and think this is going to be hard or and this is it's going to be toughand it's going to be a big challenge or you just sort of go you know what i'm relishing thisopportunity uh i'm going to just do everything i can and i'm going to i'm going to laugh at iti'm going to stick my chest out and i'm going to put my best foot forward and um sorryno no it's all right and the other thing the other thing when you're touring you know what i meanand it's just not in australia and everything just go back to
42:08Brisbane, you know, go out to Brisbaneand those five drop catcheswe had in Brisbane.For some reason, you're not dropping themin England. I don't know what happensto you, you know, or that, the runout, you know, we always used to sit there and scratchour head going, why does Alan Border
42:24at the stumps on every runout? And why doesRicky Ponting in the stumps? When we justmiss them, we just miss them.You know what? Is it it? Can I tell you why?Can I tell you why?Yeah, go on.Practice. Ricky PontingI lost count of how many times
42:41at the end of practicehe'd go out just with the fielding coachor with one of his teammatesand throw up the stumps for another hourhe'd pick up ballshe'd do one-handedhe'd be doing turn aroundand he'd be throwing at one stump
42:56he would do thatI've watched him personally do thatfor a hundred hours minimumIsn't it interestinghow in all this talkthat we can do about preparationsand county cricket and so on and so forth,it's the little things that can sometimes change the momentum.
43:13And it could be, you know, the last time England won the Ashley in Australia,there was a run out in Adelaide, wasn't it?Right near the start, the precipitated a collapse for the Australians.Gary Pratt, for example, Glenn McGrath standing on a cricket ball, edgebasket.But the point here in all of this, Jason, is Usman Kowaj's back spasm,and playing golf before the first test.No, but led to the shuffling of the Australian batting orderand Travis Head taking the first test completely out of it in the sense.
43:49And it is, you know, for the life of a coach,for all you do your preparation,sometimes it is the slightest thingand all of a sudden it's off in a different direction.Yeah, absolutely.And look, that was a, this seriously,could be a lot differentand that, you know,
44:09it was not played golf three days in a rowwhen it's a different sort.So they were really interesting,but just going back to that commentabout preparation and the like,I'll share a quick story.201 Ashes, we're in the UKand Wade 2nd, the Queensland,
44:26Wicked Keeper was our reserve,Wicked Keeper behind Adam Gilchrist.And Wade actually said to Gilly,well, look, mate,unless you get injured,I know I'm never,going to play. But we'reteammates here. I'm going to
44:39work you to the bone to makesure you're keeping your best for our countryright? So theyat every training sessionWade would make histhing to help Gilly be the best keeper he couldbe. And then Gilly conversely the samething. He would help Chuck
44:55Chucky second be the best he could be.So we were preparingit before the final test at theOval. We had a couple of days out from thetest match. And Gillyand Chuckie 2nd.They call them their catching bananas.So they do these catching sessions.
45:11They call them the catching bonanza.And they do all their drills.They do all their catching.And we,they'd started this about an hourbefore training scheduled to finish.We finished scheduled training.They were still out there.
45:23We went back inside and had something to eatand a shower got changedand caught the team bus coachback to the hotel in London,which is no small feet.takes a while to get around London.We then went upstairs and checked in with home, all this sort of stuff,and then an hour later came down,
45:41so he was met in the bar for a beer.We're probably on our second beer,and then a black cab rocks up.And that's Wade and Adam Gilchrist,getting out of the cab,both all covered in sweat and perspiration, everything.They're absolutely gone.And they would have been keeping for three or four hours.
46:02And it was just what they did.That was because we wanted to give themselves the best chance to be successful.Jason, thank you very much.David and Phil as well.Merry Christmas to you all.Merry Christmas.Merry Christmas.Could still be three, two, couldn't it, Phil?
46:19Absolutely.Keep the fake.Keep a good faith.From a small village on the banks of the River Nile.Everybody called me Mohammed, but, you know, short name or nickname, they call me more.To the biggest stages of the banks of the river Nile.of world football.He goes for the killer.
46:38Mo Salah is more than just a player.He's an icon, a symbol, a king.It's six still!And Salah rips off his shirt!Mohammed Salah represents a dreamfor Egyptians, for Muslims, for Africans.More than just a football player, he gave us hope.I'm Kelly Kate.
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