Test Match Special - The Ashes: Wounded Stokes says no place for weak men.

Episode Date: December 7, 2025

England finally show some fight, but Australia take two nil Ashes lead.There’s an astonishing interview with England captain Ben Stokes, we hear from coach Brendon McCullum and there’s reaction from Australia captain Steve Smith and player of the match Mitchell Starc. And there’s analysis by Jonathan Agnew, Glenn McGrath, Michael Vaughan, Phi Tufnell, Simon Mann and Andy Zaltzman,

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Your Essential Football Podcast Delivered every day. Listen to Football Daily on Spotify to Football Daily on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Smith, two to win, faces Atkinson,

Atkinson balls to him. Smith launches it. It's going out towards Deep Midwicket. He's finished it off with a six. emphatic win for Australia they've done it again by eight wickets resistance from England today but ultimately they have been outplayed by Australia who are two nil up with three to play and they're not far away from retaining the ashes Adelaide is next and Australia can do it then well it's a great finish from the

Australian skipper he's becoming a really good interim captain he doesn't lose too many don't think he's lost yet one six and drawn one he's seven games as interim and that's another eight-wicket victory pure dominance from Australia just play stronger cricket even today when England hung in there they fought really hard with the ball and ball with great consistency so Australia are two-nill-up in this test series they have dominated for the first three days of the game. There was some fight from England today. Ben Stokes making 50 share a partnership of 96 in 36.4 overs with Will Jacks.

To delay the inevitable England, 241 all out. Atkinson picked up a couple of wickets. Travis Head, bold for 22, and lavish and got a snortone was caught behind by Jamie Smith for three. But Steve Smith finished it off, 23 not out, and hitting the last ball for six to give us Australia there emphatic victory. Michael Vaughn, sum up today from England. What did you see from England today? Well, I saw more discipline with the bat in hand. Ben Stokes is an incredible leader, an incredible fight, but Will Jack's played a really strong hand as well. You know, they were always so far behind the game. The game's been lost in many different areas. You know, day one,

you look at the score of 325 for 9. You think, well, that's quite decent. Realistically, there were probably 100 light in terms of par. shot that Harry Brooke played to Mitchell Stark, when England were really dominating the game. You know, in Australia, you need players to get big hundreds. And if you keep getting 30s and 40s and fancy 50s, well, that's not going to get you to those really big totals. With the ball on day two, just got it all wrong in the initial start. Then they kind of grabbed it back in the middle session. Then they created chances in the back end of the day.

And the catching just wasn't good enough. And Australia, they just know how to capitalize. Australia's skill sets on day three were exceptional. England made too many mistakes last night. They needed to arrive here on day four, probably three down. So that needed a different approach last night. From the way that I saw, it was like the bas-ball way. This is the way that we play.

Today wasn't the bas-ball way. It was attritional. It was like Stark and bowling yesterday. But you have to look at Australia's bowling today when the pitch didn't do a great deal, but they were just so consistent, so consistent, on a length, on a length. They never kind of went away from the plan. Every now and again, they bought a few short balls, but it was hit the off-stump, hit the off-stump.

Michael Nisa and it's quite ironic Simon that you look at the England side and they've come down here with a lot of pace and I'm looking at Australia bowling Nisa Dogget they're all English style scene bowlers and I've been here for many many years and I've seen in the last three or four years a completely different change to the pitches

and the ball here in Australia I know the pink ball has been used this week but the top of off stunt ballers like an Anson Broad Wokes they're the type of bowlers that you need here in Australia of course to have a bit of pace and have a little bit of change up fantastic but what I've seen in the last few years

it's top of off that natural pitch up bowler that can challenge the forward press challenge that forward defence you bring your keeper up that's been a genius move Alex Carey I think's had as good a game behind the stumps that I can remember we've seen Ben folks in

India against the spinning ball magnificent but Kerry's just given a master class of how to stand up to the bouncing ball at times so brilliant tactics from Australia England have just got to be honest not enough players are turning up. You know, you can't win against Australia in Australia with just three or

four of your players rocking up and performing to a level and beyond. You need six, seven, eight players playing to par at least with three or four playing exceptional kind of innings or bowling performances. Yeah, all facets of England's game. This week have not quite been good enough.

What did you make of Ben Stokes' approach today? Liked it. I think he did what he had to do. He had to try and take the game deep. He was just hoping that he could be there for that second new pink ball. I know that sounds mad under the lights, but it was probably the one chance England had of scoring quickly. With the old pink ball, it's so hard to score quicker because it goes so soft. And Steve Smith is a brilliant captain. He does read the game great,

and he kind of plays the in-out field game. It brings them in at the right time to try and force a shot. Once you get one or two away, he just spreads it. England tried the best, but it was all too late, you know, and then Geoffrey's spell there and Gus, you look at them and go, oh, they bowled nicely, but, you know, I want to see my bowler bowling 150, kilometers an hour on the first morning in Adelaide. You know, the sun's shining. I want to see that contest again, Joffre Archer versus Steve Smith. It was almost too late.

But again, you see that, you know, he's got so much talent. And he is the one ball that I look at. I think, if he can just get it right, he could have a Mitchell Stark type of week for England. And it looks to me like they're going to have to have that kind of week from someone like Joffre Archer. They'll have to make change. You know, you can't keep with the side that have gone too and all down. There will be changes going into Adelaide.

to what sort of changes can they make? Jacob Bethel made some runs today for the Lions, 71. Bowling changes, batting changes. They haven't made many batting changes, have they? For a long time now, it's been a very settled batting line up in top seven. I think they have to seriously consider Ollie Pope's position. You know, he's just looking like he's played plenty of games against Australia with out of 50. So I think there's a little bit of a mental scar against Australia for Ollie Pope.

you're bringing Jacob Bethel I've said it a long while ago could Ben Stokes bat at number three could he just say I'll bat at number three then Will Jack's bat at number six I think it's such a big risk to bring in someone like Jacob Bethel

into this kind of series when the team's 2-0 down he's never got a first class 100 and you're expecting him to go and deliver against an Australian team with the likes of Pat Cummins and Nathan Lyme back into their team so the bowling unit for me needs to change

I think Matthew Pots an English style pitch-up bowler is probably something that could be required. Adelaide might not be that style of bowling week, but they have to rotate the bowl as Josh Tongue. We've got 18 wickets in the summer. Five against Australia in 2020, 23. In that one test match,

he hasn't played a game yet. He does get wickets. And England just need to find a way of not only, obviously, getting 20 wickets, but Australia is scoring too quickly. They're scoring so quickly against this England side from the second innings in Perth to the first innings here. The only reason they've kind of scorned,

Goring weight went down is because bowling and start thought, nah, we'll just bat for a bit of time. Up until that point, they were scoring at well over five. So there's huge problems for the England team. Glenn McGrath is here as well. We'll get some reaction. We'll hear from Ben Stokes and anyone else that the England camp put up. Glenn, what's your assessment of what you've seen over the last?

Oh, four days. We thought it was going to be three and a bit, but it ended up being four days. Yeah, so you'd just like to look at see what. England learnt from the first test and whether they put them in play here. And you'd probably look at that first innings. You know, it's a great innings by Joe Root. You know, you can't take anything away from him. And that's a one little mark against his name.

Never had a hundred against Australia. He came out and did that here. You take that out. It's completely different. And again, it's just, to me, it also showed that England haven't played much day-night cricket. You know, I reckon they still should have declared in that, you know, had half an hour at Australia. Who knows, they could have picked up two or three

like we saw here tonight. And then yesterday, when Australia's batsmen in firstly Kerry and Nisa, and then especially with Stark and bowl in the way, they went about it to drag it as long as possible to get that newer ball under lights and you saw the damage they did. England should have realised that

and just thrown everything at them. We have to get these last four wickets well before night so that that pink ball's a lot softer, a lot older going into that night session. So, yeah, there's a lot of things there where England needed to pick up. You know, the way Stokes fought

today with Jacks, you know, you expect that from Stokes. He's a quality play, he's a great player. And, yeah, the way it finished off, that's why it goes. The way England played today, I bring toughers in at the moment, but the way

in them play today, Glenn, do you think there's a sort of pointer to the future actually that it is better to just play within yourself a bit and not not play in an over-aggressive way yes and no you know I you've got to pick the the situation and how the game's going and that and they assess the conditions and adjust and adapt accordingly you know in Pakistan the way they played they took it on and it was conditions for that the first two tests have not been conditions for you know hitting balls off short of the length bouncing.

So, yeah, yeah, there was a little, few little improvements, especially in the sort of last, probably more so today. But even the way they finished off, you know, Joffre Archer came in, had a bit of fight in him. You know, he was having a chat, he was bowling sharp, he was bowling, getting aggressive, but the game's gone. Where was that on day one? Let's go down to Jonathan Agnew.

He's down there on the band, edge and Brendan McCullum the England head coach is walking towards him we'll hear from Brendan in just a moment okay thank you Simon yes Brendan McCollum is with me

how do you reflect on that bad obviously disappointing to go 2-0 down in a five-match series makes things pretty tough but you know we've been here before and we're going to have to make sure we stay tight as a group and iron out a couple of the chinks that we've shown over

last two test matches because when you come to Australia you can't be below your best and you need to make sure you seize every opportunity. I think I look at a few moments in this test match and I think there was times where we had a tendency with the bat and we probably let that slip. There was times where we didn't execute with the ball as well as we should have and didn't adapt to the conditions that we were presented with as quick as we could have and clearly our catcher was an issue as well and it's very hard to beat Australia at home if you're going to be deficient in all three of those areas. So we got some work to do. We've got some time. We've got some time. but we've been here before and you know there's no point feeling sorry for yourself you pick

yourself up and you go again yeah and you pointed the finger at basically all three disciplines of the game they're batting bowling and fielding as being issues well we weren't at our best right and i think to beat australia in australia you need to be at your best across all three disciplines and and we weren't that's the brutal honest brutal honesty of it and we'll wear that and you know from our point of view we know that we need to get better we need to be a lot a lot quicker to adapt to the conditions that we're going to get in Adelaide because I thought we were a bit slow to adapt to the conditions here and I think we were showed by Australia when they bowled in that second innings

the lengths that they hit, the adjustments they made and they put us under a lot of pressure and we weren't quite able to do that when we had our opportunity. There was some positives in it as well but obviously when you lose is you try and grasp on some of those positives and you try and iron out some of the negatives. But we have time and we've got to make sure that we don't lose half. We've still got an opportunity to bounce back and we've got a chance in nine days' time to be able to put our hands up

and be better than what we were in this one. I mean, ironically, a lot of what we saw today actually is what I don't know, England fans have been calling out for. Yeah, look, I think we scrapped hard today, you know? I think on a pitch like this and conditions that you're confronted with, it's not a natural free-flying type of surface today and the situation needed us to try and bat as long as we could and try and get as many as we could.

whether that was 140, 150, it would have given us a chance on a pitch, which even right at the end there, we saw still had some tricks in it. We just weren't able to capitalize on it. We didn't get enough runs in our second innings, and we gave away too many runs in our first innings, and ultimately, hence why we ended up only having 60 to defend in the last innings. Is there anything you'd have done differently? Looking back now, there was a bit of a break these last two tests.

Would you have done anything differently coming into these games? Not from a preparation point of view. If anything, we probably trained too much, to be honest. we had five intense training sessions leading into this game and that's something as a coach you've got to make sure you're aware of I think sometimes there's a tendency to want to overdo things to try and to make up for it but as we all know in this game it's played in the top two inches majority of it and you've got to find a way to be able to we all have to find a way to be able to ensure

that we feel prepared physically we're prepared technically prepared for the battle we adjust to the conditions as quickly as we can but also make sure we're fresh and we're ready and we're able to make those succinct decisions in the heat of the battle which can win and lose games. So you're an ad load. Thank you, Beth. Thank you. Right, this is Brendan McCullum. Talking to me, we'll get Ben Stokes in just a few moments, I think.

So if you listen out, he's actually talking on the television at the moment, and then he'll be talking to me. Tough as this here. Train too much. That's an interesting comment, wasn't it? But I can sort of understand that to some extent because they hadn't had any pink ball practice at all. You had to suddenly go fast forward and train quite a bit

for the pink board. Well, yeah, perhaps there a little bit. I mean, but what sort of struck me was that they just didn't grasp the situation, you know, kept playing these shots. Glenn mentioned it earlier on, you know, very quickly you find, and they got away with that. I can remember, what was it, Pope and

I'm not quite sure, Corley or something like that. You know, they went through this period where they'd got on top and they'd wrestled a little bit of initiative away from Australia, and then they had this period where then Ollie Pope started skimming them over the slips and Crawley skimmed a few over the slips. Surely then you go, you walk down, you do a bit of gardening, you have a chat with your mate and say, listen, you know, we've had a little bit of luck there. Let's just tuck up here a little bit. It's coming into the pink, you know, it's coming into the darkness and what have you.

You've just got to be a little bit more circumspect. You've got to learn, you know, you've got to do your learning and your practice and everything before the game. But, you know, a lot like life. You know what I mean? you've got to then adapt through you've got to go through the gears you've got to sometimes pull back on the gears sometimes put a shot away that you think you can do but then as the lights come down you can't do it like those big hacks outside of stum to to start but yeah right ben stokes is approaching jonathan now so let's go back to jonathan yeah just mimicking the captain up well ben how do you how do you feel after that Yeah, obviously disappointing.

You know, again, I think looking back on this game and something that I sort of can take a little bit of sort of, I don't know, stuff happening over and over again. And it's the moments in games where the game is in a moment of it's neither here or there. And Australia have managed to get through those periods, whether they've got the bat in the hand or the ball. the hand and outdo us and that seems to be you know the constant theme not only these first two games but over a long while so i can stand here and say i know it's not down to a skill thing

because of the players we've got on that dressing room they're all incredibly talented players they've shown that in numerous occasions but if you can't put it down to a skill thing then you start to wonder what is it are we do we need to start thinking about what mentality we're taking into to those pressure moments. Because when we're on top, we're great. When we're behind the game, we're also very good. But when that moment of the game is neck and neck, we're not coming out on top on enough occasions

to be able to challenge a team like Australia. So, yeah, there'll be, look, there's going to be some conversations going on in the dressing room that I'll keep to the dressing room. I'll fully back my players that we're able to bounce back from this and deliver what we need to deliver over the next three games. Because what else are we supposed to do? We're two-nil down, we've got three games left.

And we know we've got to win them. And, yeah. Can you learn from watching how Australia, I mean, Australia did play a pretty decent game here tactically as well, didn't they? Oh, God. I mean, look, we... It's probably a blur now. No, it's not necessarily blur.

I think, as I said to you there, it's the moments in the games where it's on the line. You know, is it fight, is it characters, is the mentality that were taken out there as a group? That's what I've got to find out. That's what I've got to ask. You know, it's a saying that we said a lot here in the distress room, Australia isn't for weak men, but a dressing room that I'm captain of

isn't a place of weak men either. So, yeah, look, we need to dig deep. I need to dig deep, and I need to get this team in a place where we do go out there in Melbourne, and we are seriously switched on and understand where we are right now. And does that involve conversations with individual players and points in this match that you will bring up as conversation points? Our individuals, individual chats, I think they happen constantly, Jaggers.

You know, I think it's, you know, we are one team, but we're made up of 11 players. So, you know, when it's a team thing. And as I say, if I feel like it's something that's constantly happening, then I need to address it. But yeah, I've got no doubt about the guys in there are capable of winning the sashes. I'm capable of within myself as a leader and as a captain and my skill set. as a player. But yeah, look, we can't speak about the things that I think has, you know, potentially, you know, gone wrong over these last two games.

Ironically, there were parts of today that actually went really well, showing the sort of spirit, I think, and the character. And, you know, that's down to you as well. But the way Joffar Archer ran in at the end there, a couple of wickets taken. I mean, that actually looked good from the sidelines. Yeah, and look, that's it. as a captain you're trying to put a little bit of your own influence within the team as your own personal character and all I asked for last night and this morning was from

everyone who still had a responsible thing to do in this game you know especially with the bat was just show fight take the you know we talk about taking a scoreboard out of the equation and I asked the group to take the scoreboard out of the equation and just fight I think me and jacksy did an unbelievable job at doing that but look you know the guys lower down the order yes they have an unbelievable ability to be able to score us some runs but you know they're batting down the order for reasons so yeah it's it's tough to expect more and more from them down the order if that makes sense you know we've got to take some responsibility there as a batting group you know especially that top seven yeah and and hopefully

to rein in some of the the looser shots that have been played is that a fair comment I think when you there's some of the stuff there I think it's a it's a mentality thing and again we seem to see those kind of things in that pressure situation where it's neither here or there. We've managed to wrestle the first two games and moments back towards us and then Australia have got the momentum back. So yeah, I see that as it's a common theme when the game is on the line. When the pressure is on, where are we at? What are we thinking about? Are we clear? To go out there and do what we need to do to get us back in the game. So, you know, that's something that, as I said, I'll be addressing all this kind of stuff

in the dressing room. I ain't going to sit here and spurt it all out. But, you know, Yeah, yeah. Okay. Last thought, there's still three games left, Ben. You're confident you can win? Incredibly confident. I always am confident of the guys who get to put the shirt on. Confident within myself that I can lead this team to a pretty impressive bounceback.

What else can I do? Where else can I be with my mind? I'll be doing everything I possibly can to do that. Thanks, just talking to us. Okay, cheers. There we are. we go. I think Ben Stokes in an extraordinary

reflective mode there. Simon, he's going off to have his conversations and looking into his eyes different to the other week. That's someone who's really got a lot on his mind and I think he's got a lot to say

and he knows he's got big challenges ahead but he is going to dig deep into the mentality of that dressing room and find out what the problems are and when those moments come in which there is that that situation change that it's not Australia that grabbed the initiative every time yeah I mean obviously didn't name names you would never name names in a situation like that but what what do you think or who do you

think he was referring to top seven the top seven batsman that's that's that's who's talking about isn't he that's it's quite clear I think you know the way that the way that they've been getting out and the way that they've been allowing Australia to get back into the game. Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. I mean, it was a really interesting interview, that wasn't.

It's an interview, I'd like that to have gone on for the other 15 minutes. Yeah. You're not allowed to do it, but he was in a talking, get some stuff out there, sort of mood there. Yeah, that's the first time I've heard the Baz Stokes, you know, partnership sort of say these things keep happening and if they keep happening we have to then address them so how will we then go to address it and john i don't necessarily think it's just

the batting as well it's the bowling as well look at nisa john look at nisa just comes up there professional top of off stump you know and he keeps saying that australia uh then wrestled the initiative back they wrestled the initiative back just by sometimes pulling back when we try to wrestle initiative we kind of go harder and then that gives the initiatives sometimes if it doesn't come off to the opposition. So, you know, sometimes just by ploughing on forward isn't getting the initiative. Like anise, the wicket went flat,

and he just top of off-stum, good professional bowling, went about his craft, and that's the way of getting it back. Yeah, I was interested, particularly in the way he looked, as he was saying those words, there are going off for a bit of a break now.

There is, you know, at some time until the next test match, he's going to be dealing with, stuff. I think that was absolutely the message. He recognises that there is an issue. He wants to find out why certain players are not responding in the right way. I think he's talked about individual conversations to go through it all. And he said, I'm going to find out what the problem is. So I think this break for him

probably comes at a good time, actually. The way he was speaking there, he knows that there's a lot to be done. I don't think, you know, I interview Ben Stokes a lot. That was an entirely different look. People can say words, but it's how you look into the eyes as well. And that was a very, very determined looking Ben Stokes. Yeah, I mean, my dressing room is not a place for weak men, though. I mean, you can draw your inference on that, can you?

I mean, that's quite a strong comment to make. But weak doesn't necessarily mean playing more shorts. week sometimes was what Ben Stokes did there with the bat. Well I wonder I mean just listening to him there I wonder whether the innings he played today was kind of like a bloody minded innings to say look this is what

you've got to do everybody. Absolutely yes it wasn't we're going to save this game we're not going to win this game but look this is what you can do if you apply yourself whether you're trying to lead by example out in the field we're not going to give an inch that's basically what he was saying we might have lost this game which they clearly

had but we are not going to give an inch and I think it'll be very interesting to see how they come out and the way the Joffar Archer ran in this evening for instance above like lightning in a losing cause you know maybe there have been a few rockets fired already in that dressing room you know and well we'll see again we've talked a lot about all sorts of things preparation and all of that we'll see how they how they turn up in Adelaide next week does it mean do you think John it's difficult we're trying to read something into words that to some extent

we're in code because you don't name names do you in a situation like that? Do you think that means potentially changes in the top seven? I think he's going to be listening very carefully to what each player has to say he'll have those in his mind

who I suspect who he will feel have not given their best so far and I suspect Olly Pope might be on that list and as we talked last night there's just no copy competition for places. This is the problem. There's no player under threat in that team apart from Olly Pope. And that's been the case from the very start because of Jacob Bethel.

But Jacob Bethel can't open the batting. Jacob Bethel can't keep wicket. Jacob Bethel's not going to bat anywhere else. I mean, you know, it is a very strange setup in which there is just no competition. So these players are going to have to respond. But unfortunately, there isn't the bottom line that is usually the case in these teams. in which it's made pretty clear if you don't sort yourself out, you're out you're gone. You know, Harry Brooke, you play another shot like that, I don't care if your second

best in the world or whatever, the rankings say, if you do that again then I'm very sorry but that's unacceptable. But that can't happen in this team because there's no one else. As I said, it could be a little bit of a change attack. It could be a change attack. So change of approach do you think?

Well, change of approach, absolutely. Well, it has to be a change of approach because this approach clearly has not worked. It's not working, too. No, absolutely. But like you said there, I mean, Harry Brooke absolutely filled to the rafters with talent. But I think what he was saying there, you might be, but you play a couple of more shots like that.

It doesn't matter how much talent you've got. You've got to prove it on the field with a big hundred. And that means graft, knuckle down, application, and play the situation. And that was a great interview. And I think that there will be a few rockets fired. in this dressing room for Ben Stokes. Sorry, and McCollum. I wouldn't like to be, I wouldn't like to be in that room.

I mean, he wasn't looking aggressively at me at all. This was steely determined. Ice cold. Yeah. Very reflective. Choosing his words very carefully and saying what he said absolutely deliberately. I mean, Ben Stokes is not a stupid individual. He said that on here.

for the public consumption absolutely deliberately. Yeah, and I don't think that dressing room now might be saying, coming back in like that and take your gloves off and saying, well, that's just the way I play. That's what I sort of felt from that. You know, if that's the way you're playing, I don't care how good you are,

don't care how much we've invested in you, you're not playing. I think that's a change of tack right there. Yeah, well, we'll see. What did you make a bit of Glenn listening on? No, it's interesting, trying to listen to what he's saying, but also what he doesn't want to say. Yeah.

There's a few things there. I guess it's got to the point now. There's been a lot of talk about basball for a couple of years now. This is make or break. This is, there's no, you know, if we lose the next few games, I will continue on with it. It's all or nothing now. And just listening to him, to me, it's about they've got the talent.

There's no doubt about it. But then it's applying yourself for adapting to the conditions. Okay, I can go hard now, or it's a bit tough. okay, get through this tough period, then assert myself again. And that's where they haven't made the right decision. So it's more mental side of the game. And when he said, oh, we're great front runners. When we're behind, we're great, it's that middle period

when neck and neck and Australia gets the assurgency. But you look at Perth, they were miles in front. And they threw it away with shot selection. And after lunch on day two, they were, you know, 100 in front. one wicket. All of a sudden, Australia's chasing 200 and gets them. So they're on top, didn't assess the situation, you know, keep batting out there. You can always sense the opposition when they're vulnerable and that's when you can attack. When it's sort of level pegging, you've got to work hard. So yeah. Exactly. About Perth, like you said, Glenn, a hundred

ahead. Now, they went hard and then that that's what their undoing was. I think now, you know, When you're 100 ahead, if anything, buckle down the hatches a little bit and grind them and make sure you get there. So I think it's going to be a completely different England side that we're going to see turning up in Adelaide. But not different necessarily in personnel, but in... I don't know how they all slot in. Hopefully in attitude, in accountability from the team and from the individual sort of perspective. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Jonathan, I mean, you just said it there.

I mean, it's very hard to overhaul this team, especially the batting order. I mean, there is Jacob Bethel. He did make some run to the Lions today against Australia A. I mean, they do have Lions players here. You don't think they would do something really radical and blood a couple of, not new players, but players who haven't played in the series, perhaps from outside the squad. I mean, not the Lions have done particularly well in their first things. They've bought out for 160.

They don't have that much room for manoeuvre. No, they haven't. They've got none. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if they played Bethel, actually. just because in this the way tours are now and I know they've got a few days off now and they will reconvene in Adelaide but there's no escape

you know if the same bowlers getting out all the time and there he is running in at you again the following week we saw it in the COVID series isn't before years ago you know there's no escape for the batsman in particular but also the bowlers who run in and you know Steve Smith again has made his mark here again isn't against Jopher Archer there's no means of getting away So sometimes just freshening something up

but might be a good idea. I think Olly Pope was disappointing in this game. They really rave about Jacob Bethel, don't they? So that, but it's the only change they can make apart from switching a bowler or two. I think Will Jacks is, Will Jacks, who has done himself a lot of good in this game. Yeah.

You know, first innings he played pretty well. Seconds played really well. It showed the right temperament. And that I think is what, you know, I think temperament is probably what Stokes was taught. talking about there, you know, where they're going at stuff. And Glenn was right. You have that opportunity.

You've got to grab it. You've got to take it and not let Australia wrestle it back again, which is what's happened so far. They've had opportunities in these two games, but they've just not taken them. And that's, that's, it must be so frustrating to be the captain in that, in that situation. You can just, you can see the opportunity is there. But it, but it hasn't been taken. So it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case.

but they tend to be very loyal and they tend to keep you know we heard Brendan McCallum say to me there you keep it tight that's the way they like to do it and that's what they've done they've come here more or less with their

well with 12 or 13 already inked in they can change a quick bowler or two but maybe that that might be a change that we look out for Agas it's a familiar theme 2 nil down in Australia

but actually it was 2 nil last time in the Asher in England. There were two tight test matches. England lost them by two wickets and by 40 odd runs. Ben Stokes, I remember him saying, I think it's Brendan McCullum saying at Lords, we can come back and win

this series. Is there any way back realistically for England from here? Well, it doesn't feel like it when you're standing out here in the gab and there's a four-day defeat on the back of a two-day defeat and, you know, you've got Australians celebrating all over

the place. I've got hundreds of people just behind me here, pinned up against the railings. We've got Mitch Stark signing. You know, he's having a selfie. You know, it's an all-in Australian celebration. But anybody who's watched these six days will see that Australia is vulnerable. Now, they're going to be stronger in Adelaide.

They'll have Nathan Lyon back. I think Pat Cummins will almost certainly be back. Although, he hasn't played a game for months. And that's, you know, we talk about England's preparation and match preparation and match practice. Well, you know, he hasn't played for a very long time. and so he'll be fairly careful, I would have thought, how he comes back. Can they win the three out of three?

Well, as I said to you, I think semi-joking the other day, at least now they've had some preparations, at least now they've had some match practice in these two games. They've lost them both. They had opportunities to win them both. And I think after all the inquests have taken place and these conversations with players are taking place in the dressing rooms and they've all got their heads straight

and Ben Stokes has got his head straight and he's delivered his message then we'll see how they come out at Adelaide because the way the series is so far there'll be opportunities there for England because this is not a great Australian side they are vulnerable

there'll be opportunities and this time well England will have to take them I think also what it comes down to a little bit is it's like the minerals you've got some minerals he was all very well and good to see

Joffar Archer with a three or four overspell didn't see too much of that when the game was happening you know I mean and the guy's run in and everything but I think it's sort of like he came steaming in there he was steaming he was in Steve Smith's face

where was that John where was that John in the Thursday well exactly exactly so maybe some rockets have already been fired yeah perhaps that's what he bent absolutely about weak men Jonathan, from here to Adelaide, it's over a week now.

People listening to this might not know, but England have a mini-break where they go to Nusirp. What do you think about that? A mini-break and then off to Adelaide at the weekend for preparation for the test match, which starts next Wednesday. Yeah, well, I mean, the optics will be bad. And people at home listening are prepared to see lots of photographs of England's cricketers playing golf.

And, you know, that is not going to look good. Now, do you do things for optics? And what else could they do? Well, the only thing they could do, alternatively, is to go to Adelaide, to Bin Nusa, which is up on the Sunshine Coast. It's a very nice place indeed. But you bin that, you go to Adelaide.

You don't practice every day. You can't practice every day. You can't net every day. But you can at least be there and preparing yourselves mentally. you go to the Adelaide Oval you do a bit of work every day just a little bit before building it up

but then you can go and play your golf in the afternoon I mean as I've said so many times you can't train all day and you can't sit in your hotel room all afternoon and evening when you finish your training you've got to do something so you know playing golf is not the problem it's just it's built

the narrative has kind of built up which suggests that actually all they're interested in is playing golf well that's not true we watch some training you watch them work it's unfortunate i think for england that it's entirely of their own doing that this narrative has been allowed to grow while they're losing games and and rather than playing like for instance the game in cambra that i think people are still a bit split on but i mean i i think that some of them should have gone and played that just to have got used to a pink ball there were a number of playing in this game who never played with a pink bull before that that to me would be it would mean a more sensible approach and i think the people listening at home would would agree with that and And had they done all that and still lost, well, okay, you have your break. But that's the only thing I can think of. But I must say, I just think that the sight of them are on their golf buggies over the next few days in Nusa.

They're going to be drones up. They've had it already with cameras. I mean, the people at home have no idea really about the scrutiny that the England cricket team is under. There they were on those scooters in Brisbane. You know, all that stuff. They are followed all of the time. Every airport lounge they go into, it's everywhere. And they're going to have to prepare themselves

for some pretty tricky headlines and photographs over these next few days. But I say, what else could they do? Yes, you can go and do some practice, but that match is, what, nine days away. It's a long time just be spending, having fielding practice and in the nets. Okay, I suppose in the old days,

they'd all had a match, right? Yes, they would. Yes, they would. They would have played a practice match. That's exactly. And what they would have done, they'd have had players in the squad who would have played in that practice match,

along with people who actually needed the practice out of the main team, and then you'd sit down at the end of that practice match and before the next test, say, right, who's in form? Who's playing well? Who's going to play in this next test match? Well, I think you could virtually name 1 to 11, and we've talked a bit about Bethel, but that doesn't happen.

That is not happening anymore. I don't think that's old school and do you know what it was it was also rather fun going round and going up into up country places and just playing against the country 11 whoever it was you saw a bit of the country

you got away from all the main players you could clear ahead opportunity for bats particularly to get some runs it was a useful exercise but yeah that's unfortunately not on the agenda this time thanks very much

I guess, Glenn, you wanted to say something. Yeah, no, sort of the fact they don't have a game on now, I actually don't mind them having a break. You know, listening to Ben Stokes and to, you know, Brennan McCollum, it was a different, I got a different sense from it because they've always been very positive and no negativity at all and very strong that this is the way we're going to go.

And end of story. But now I'm hearing, yes, we do have issues. Yes, not playing as well as we like. they've now identified their issues. They've accepted it. I think going away now, having a break, go up, Nuset, play some golf, whatever you want to do, and really come back, okay, now this is our mindset.

We've changed. This is what we have to do to do things differently. They've been so strong, and they put a wall up around everyone else saying, this is the way we're going to do it. They've finally identified. This doesn't work. So now they've got to have a different approach.

So from here on in, their approach, once they get to Adelaide, is going to set the standard for them for the rest of the series and see if they're good enough to bounce back from here. So I'm glad they've finally identified it. Maybe it's a test or two too late, but better late than never. No, absolutely. I think it's a change attack.

You know, I mean, the batters are getting a little bit of stick here, but also the bowlers, you know, if you're not, you know, wickets are flat in Australia. They go flat. It's long, it's hot and everything. So what do we do? Bang it in halfway down. That hasn't worked.

You know, take a leaf out of Nisa's book. Just bowl some top of off stump, you know, set some fields back, you know, and let the opposition come to you a little bit. I think it's going to be a change attack with the ball, and I think it's going to be a slight change attack with the bat. Still looking to be positive and aggressive, but Ben Stokes, he led the way with the basball charge, and I think he's perhaps just shown there.

He's going to lead the way with a little bit more defiance. There are always two sides to a story. We've heard the England side. There's a happy side for Australia. Victors by eight wickets in this second test match. We can get some reaction now from the Australia camp. Captain Steve Smith has been speaking to Issa Goua. Now I'd like to welcome up, Steve Smith.

He's just calmed down from his knock. Feeling a bit more relaxed now? Yeah, pretty chilled now. It was good fun there for a little bit. So, no, great day of cricket. The guys toiled really hard early on. and obviously a really good partnership with Stokesy and Jackson there. And, you know, once we broke that, we're able to go through

and get them out and chase 60. So, yeah, great day. Let's go back to the start. You lost the toss. So how pleasing must that be, given it's such a crucial thing and a pink ball test? Yeah, I think the first two days were pretty even in terms of conditions that we both faced. No one got a new ball at the night in that first little bit. And then I think the game turned for us when we were able to, you know, extend everyone,

one get into double digits. Unfortunately, no one go on to make a big one, but particularly the tail to bat for 50 overs and extend that time so we could get the new ball under lights and obviously do some damage last night was crucial for us. And yeah, it was just a really good performance. You had 650 run partnerships there. How crucial was that?

Especially, you know, when England are coming hard at you and the lights are changing and the conditions are changing. Yeah, I mean, it can be tricky with the pink ball. You're almost never in at times Sometimes it feels a little bit easy When the ball gets a bit soft And then you get a ball change Or something

You know the lights come on It speeds up a bit It just changes really quickly And you've got to adapt And yeah It's a tricky game at times But yeah I thought the guys

Being able to extend those partnerships And have a lot of 50 run partnerships Really helped us in the game obviously With the ball obviously Michael Nisa was a talking point Coming into the side for Nathan Lyon He delivered He did

Yeah he obviously made out batting a little bit longer as well at number eight and yeah, what he did today and in the first innings was exceptional. I think, you know, he offers something different to the other guys. We can bring the keeper up to the Stumps and change the game that way. And the way he bowled today and last night

was exceptional and yeah, really pleased for him to get his first fifer. He's been on a lot of tours. He's worked really hard and yeah, really pleased for him. Wicketkeepers don't often get a good rap, but how good was Alex Carey? He's a freak. Honestly, up to the stunts. The ball

just seems to end up in his hands. It hits the batter's pad or something and it still ends up in his hands. He's got no fear up there. He moves so well and his gloves are just sensational and yeah, he's, that was one of the best keeping performances I think I've ever seen. And yours top three? Your cat? I don't know. It's got to be up there, I reckon. They're pretty tough when, you know, you've got a pink ball, the lights are on. Yeah, I'm blindsided by Alex. I'm standing quite wide because Alex covers so much room and then, yeah, just fortunately saw it late and got down to it

and at Stark. It was obviously at a crucial time to break that partnership so, yeah, I'll remember that one. Just last one for you, Steve. Pat Cummings obviously comes back for the next test match but you're going pretty well with the captaincy. Are you happy to hand it back? Yeah, all his.

No, it's been fun. The last couple of games and the boys have put on some terrific performances and, yeah, done everything I've said, so give it back to Paddy and let him take it. done. Congratulations. Thank you. Steve Smith with Isha Guett. So is it obvious, Glenn, what Australia do for Adelaide? They just bring back Lyon and they bring back Cummins and that's it?

Well, by the looks of things, that's probably what will happen. You know, Pat Cummins hasn't played for a while and I think back to last year when India came out, that first test match where India won in Perth, the bowling looked underdone a bit. And it wasn't until the second test that they really fired and that includes Pat Cummins. So hopefully he's ready to go. hits the ground running and Nathan Lyon I think he could have played an impact out here

but then you look at what Boland and Nisa did at different times so yeah who did they leave out unfortunately I think it's it will be Doggett and Nisa that will be left out Nisa has played three day night

test matches in his career and they like their you know that horses for courses things so yeah if Lyon and Cummins come back in it will be Doggett and Nisa that unfortunately miss out. Nisa with 5 for 42 today. Mitchell Stark taking 2 for 64 to go with his 6th for 75 and his innings of 77.

He was player at the match and he has been speaking to Isha as well. Two wins, yeah. Yeah, can't ask for much more. Yeah, well, I mean, it went a bit longer than the first test but hard for one I think for both teams and yeah, glad to be on the right side of it. How's that body holding up because you keep putting in and keep bowling at 100 140 plus kilometres an hour. Yeah, it takes a little bit longer in the mornings at this age, but no, still going okay.

Yeah, hanging in there. And that pink ball, not swinging necessarily too much for you, but you were still able to extract the wickets. What was the key for you? Yeah, I mean, we've sort of seen on this ground before, and the wickets this hard, it's sort of see that pink ball go soft pretty early. So, yeah, I think we, as a bowling unit,

it bowled really well across both innings. Obviously, the batting in the first innings was key to get get a lead there and nest today was phenomenal so really really pleased for him at his home ground front of family he was phenomenal today you're so often the tone setter just how difficult is it to get yourself ready for that first ball because you make it look very easy yeah I still try and do the same things on I so no it doesn't take much to get ready to go

still trying to bowl as quick as I can and hit the stumps every time so yeah just keep running in and see it Yeah, we go. Well, you've contributed so much in terms of the wickets, but what about with the bat? How much did you enjoy that? There's no better incentive for bowlers than to bat as long as you can, to not bowl anymore.

So, yeah, it was nice to put a bit of a partnership there. I think that's, you know, you speak a little bit of the tactical side of pink ball test cricket, and we knew it was going to be better to bowl with the pink ball or hard new pink ball later in the day. So to get through as long as we did with the bat, to put a partnership together with Scotty and then obviously doggy for a little bit there at the end, was really key for us to push that bowling innings as far back as we could. And we saw late in the day we got those rewards.

So, yeah, fantastic to contribute as a lower order. Got a taste of what it's like to be a proper all-rounder. I'm too old for that. Yeah, I'm not sure how Stokesy and then the guys do it as long as they do. So, yeah, I'll enjoy an extra day to put my feet up and get ready for Adelaide. Well, I don't once again, Mitch. Thanks, each. So that's Mitchell Stark, one of Australia's match winners.

There were a few and a fine. round performance from Australia they win this second test match by eight wickets as indeed they won the first test match Andy Zaltzman alongside me what so what about the some of the individual stats from this game well let's start

with Stark back-to-back player of the match performances as Isha said there 18 wickets in the first two tests that's the most any bowlers had after two tests of an Ashes series since Shane Warn had 20 after two matches in the 1990 94-95 series and his

an achievement of having a six-wicket hall and a score of 75 or more in the first innings of the test. Only two other players have done that in Ash's history to great Australian all round us. Jack Gregory in the first series after the First World War and Keith Miller in the first series after the

second World War. So extraordinary performance from him with both ball and Bat and Michael Nisa became the oldest seamer to take his first five-wicket hall for Australia since a medium pace called Harry Boyle in the 1880s

and Australia just the fifth team slightly niched at this but the fifth team in test history to have two pace bowlers age 35 or more both take five wickets five wicket innings in a series and two of those were Walsh and Ambrose for the West Indies in the late

1990s so yeah some excellent performances from Australia's bowlers and the nature of that team batting performance it was a slight mixture of ruthlessness and care There are a number of shots of this will let England slightly back into it. But every single player scored double figures.

The first test innings in history in which all 11 players made 13 or more and a very rare instance of a team reaching 500 without a single century stand. Only the third time that has happened in test history. Now, Australia are 2-0 up. Yes. They are closing in seemingly on winning the ashes. Now, they are 2-0 up after six days of cricket.

Is there a potential record for winning the ashes in double-twick quick time? In terms of days of cricket, I'll dig around between now and Adelaide. In terms of overs taken, England have batted for 219 overs and one ball in their four innings here. We had 36.4 overs in that one partnership by Stokes and Jacks today. either side of that they've lost 39 wickets in 182 overs, a wicket every 28 balls faced in the series. It's the fastest, in terms of balls-faced batting, England have never gone 2-0 down against Australia more rapidly

and by quite a significant margin. To put it in context, in the 2013-14 series when they were destroyed by Mitchell Johnson, when they were 2-0-down, they'd faced 303 overs. So, basically, 85 was a whole, well, over a whole day's batting at modern over-o-rate's more. across the first two tests to go 2-0 down to the Johnson-inspired Australians then. So this has been extremely rapid. Obviously, Perth was off the charts, but even here,

a bowled and under 80 overs in both innings. And England are used to being 2-0 down on Australia. It's the eighth time in the last 10 series in Australia. They've been 2-0 down after 2. they're now 17 matches without a win in Australia since the last test of the 2010-11 series when they won by an inning so take the series 3-1 their previous longest run of test without a win in Australia was 12 either side of the Second World War even in the difficult times at the start of Australia's dominance in the early 1990s the longest they went without an ashes win was 9 tests

So 17 tests. Joe Root, Ben Stokes, first played on the 2013-14 series here. Neither of them has ever won a test in this country. So it's a pretty desperate statistical situation. And just picking up on one particular aspect, and again, it involves Mitchell Stark. He had a 27.2 over partnership with Scott Boland that was crucial in shaping the game early yesterday. England's eighth, ninth and tenth wickets across all four innings of the series have lasted a total of 27. 0.5 overs in losing their 12 wickets. They've lost the wicket every 14 balls for the 8th, 9th and 10th wickets.

On paper, this is a strong England tale on the field. It has capitulated rapidly. And you look at the comparison of the players, Atkinson, with a test 100, and a number of other scores in the 30s and 40s, Bryden Kass, as a test 50, a couple of first class hundreds. And just comparing them with Boland and Doggett, who've managed about considerably longer than England's, on paper, far stronger tail enders. So that's been a significant factor in this series, the rapidity with which England's tail subsided.

We saw it again today when Stokes and Jacks had given them a glimmer of hope of at least challenging Australia and then the tail once again disintegrated into the Brisbane air. And most of them caught from short balls on the leg side as well. But anyway, that is another story. unless you've got something more? Just one final. Niche stat. Well, the Jack Stokes' partnership, 59 in 24 overs in the first session of the day,

the lowest scoring full session of the Basball era. It was Stokes' second's lowest 50 of his career. But his opposing number, as Captain Steve Smith, 23 off 9 in the second inning. He scored two sixes in each innings the first time in his long and illustrious chest career that he's hit four sixes in a match, which, given the nature of a nature of, of basketball is, I don't know, like an anti-cherry on the top of a disappointing cake. Yeah, kind of rubbing it in. There we go. Thanks very much, Saltz. Now, you can watch highlights on the BBC Sport website and app and on BBC IPlayer. You'll also be able to watch

the TMS Ashes debrief with Alex Hartley on IPlay and the BBC Sport YouTube channel. Check out BBC Sounds for our full range of podcast. Just Search Ashes. And we're back on air Tuesday the 16th of December at 1055 p.m ahead of the first ball at 11.30 for the third test in Adelaide. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. This month in football, everything is up for grabs. The Premier League battles intensify. The Champions League reaches its crucial turning point, and the World Cup draw sets the stage for the biggest tournament on earth.

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