Test Match Special - The Cartel - with Steven Finn & Mark Wood

Episode Date: September 6, 2026

Isa Guha talks pace bowling with two of England’s most successful fast men: multiple Ashes winners Mark Wood and Steven Finn. Plus Sir Alastair Cook discusses how best to captain fast bowlers, and TMS statistician Andy Zaltzman provides the numbers.

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ad-free, with an Amazon music subscription. The TMS Podcast, from BBC Radio 5 Live. We've got a couple of fast bowlers alongside me as well as Alistair Cook. Do you consider yourself a fast bowler after your efforts in the field? Alistair? I'm going to have to let statistics decide that. I just ask what these guys' averages are. That's all I ever say about that.

Well, look, great to have Mark Wood with us, Stephen Finn, alongside as well. Two fast bowlers that have played for England and been incredibly dominant in their time as well. to get their figures up. I'm going to build them up. Oh no. Here we go. Do we have to? How would you leave them off? For Mark Wood, 119 wickets, 5-5-wicket halls. Debutt, debut back in 2015 now, Woody.

Yeah, given me by Sir Alastakouk. Over 10 years. Stephen Finn, 36 test matches 125 wickets at 35-5 wicket halls as well. I'm going to start with you, Woody. Where did you first learn to bowl fast and who was your inspiration? Well, I was very lucky, obviously, to have Stephen Harmison at my club so I could watch him up close and you know watch him on the telly as well at the local critic club and he was probably my inspiration he was the one I

wanted to be like even though he was six foot millions and I wasn't very tall at all but I still wanted to try and be like him and then I probably realized like I could bowl fast I bowled I had a little bit of a gross bird with 1670 and I pulled once for Ashton I remember then I got on the academy off the back of one spell and then since then I wasn't that quick, the odd ball, but not consistently and then when I became a pro I got quicker and quicker quicker from there. And who do you

credit for that ability to bring that pace to your game? A mixture of people, really. I think Stevie Williams with me coach at Ashton and then going to Durham, John Windows did a lot of work with me run up and alignment and stuff of that to try and help me and I gradually got quicker on the academy.

Then probably with England it would have been sort of Kevin Shine was the original one. Coming through England Lions and Pace programs and things of that. So him a lot. And then from there, the last part of my career of getting quit, probably someone like Neil Colleen and maybe a John Lewis. They would be the guys I would throw out really.

Michael Holden was a big one because he told me at the length of my run-up. And for ages, I was like, nah, this is what's getting us to play for England. I'm not changing. And then when I did change it, I became a totally different. so maybe I should have listened to him earlier. He does know a thing or two about fast bowling, I suppose. How did he tell you that? I sought them to speak to him at Lourdes

because he was like, he said something on commentary and it was my friends had messages about it saying he says that me run-up wasn't helping and it was putting too much strain and all this kind of stuff. So I went up to him at Lourdes and I was like, can I ask you why you've said this? What do you see? Obviously, a legend in the game.

What do you see in my thing? And he was just like, your run-up's too short, you're having to force it too much, and then you've fallen off and didn't. It was really good, though, really nice wanting us to succeed and do well. And then I held on to that for probably another year or two of not doing it. And then I started doing it loosely in training of like starting to go back off a longer run. And then I was just like, right, that's it, I'm doing it. So I then moved my run-up back, and then I was like twice. I was a much better baller when I had changed to my longer run than I was off my short.

I think it's important to mention that there are so many different ways you can do it in terms of getting that delivery down there is at the speeds that you get them down there. You mentioned Steve Harmison, he was tall, but he was super, super fast. He didn't have a run-up that, I guess, looked efficient. Whereas for yourself, you look a bit more like an athlete when you're running into ball, then you're approaching the crease and attacking it as well, a bit like a Brett Lee. Well, I don't think they were his legs. That was why.

Somebody else's legs attached to his body. But the one thing that he got that, Finney can talk about a lot, is like he got good bounce as well, because he was so tall at the crease with his pace as well. And that often did for people, whereas me and someone, maybe like the Brett Lee, a bit more skiddy and shorter. You know, brace front leg and had to like almost like rush onto people where I was Finney being in a fastball.

He was tall and aggressive and used that bounce really well. It's come to you then, Phine. Where did it start for you? Who was your inspiration? I loved Glembeck. as all of our TMS colleagues found out when I finally worked with him for the first time in the 2021-22 Ashes series.

You didn't leave him alone, did you? Completely starstruck by him. I got put on air next to him and he just popped up in a situation like this, a rain delay and all of a sudden, Glenn McGrath was like sat next to me and it was me, Agers and him talking about bowling, and I was just kind of looking around thinking,

no, this doesn't feel right. So he was the person that when I was young, I just loved his attitude, his belligerence and his skill and getting close to the stumps, being tall and slim. I kind of just wanted to try and replicate what he did, I think. So yeah, he was my big inspiration growing up. Steve Harmeson clearly as well for England bowler who was tall and hit the pitch hard when I was in my mid-teens.

That was when he was in his absolute pomp in the, in the early 2000s through to 2005. So, yeah, I'd say those two people when I was a youngster, the two people that inspired me to really want to be a fast bowler. But I think I was just lucky to be naturally gifted and able to bowl quick when I was young, could compete against men earlier than maybe other lads my age because I was able to bowl quick and keep them on their toes.

And I think that's why I developed quite quickly as a cricketer. So yeah, it was like a sequence of events, but McGrathamson were my two when I was a youngster. He talks about bowling close to the thumps, sometimes a bit too close. Yeah, yeah, that did. Well, that happened here. That all came to a head here against South Africa in 2012 and forced me actually to do the opposite to Woody. I had this lovely, long, flowing run-up. And then in the middle of a series, I just occasionally, it wasn't all the time, it was just occasionally would knee the stumps.

And then was kind of forced to change my run-up to a short run-up. run up to try and maintain my momentum through the crease and it ended up being really bad for me and messing up all of that rhythm that I had off a long run up. I went from having a flow through the crease to then forcing it. And when I tried to untangle that, it became really difficult and challenging for me. I was always told that it's a lot harder to change your feet than your top half when you're bowling. So at what point do you kind of get your action as perfect as it? it can be in your career in in terms of how you want to deliver how efficient you want to be because I was still working on my action you know later on in my career but I feel like

that there's almost like a a period of time when you're a fastballer growing up in the game to really just hone and fine tune your delivery action because as soon as you've changed that it can really just throw you yeah well it's something i think you hone over time and it and it's it's also dependent on how you're feeling and and what's going to on with the conditions on any given day or what bit of your body's hurting. I think that's one thing that's overlooked actually when we sit here and talk about the game. And Joffar Archer in particular, on a day where he's bowling 84 or 85 miles an hour instead of 91 and people are up here saying, oh, he's not trying, he's not, and I think they're lazy

generalisation sometimes to, and a lack of understanding for fast bowling is difficult and it's challenging and everything has to align on any given day for you to be able to bowl the ball at 90-odd miles an hour as Alistair plays his tiny guitar or tiny violin next to me. Do you respect fast bowlers? Do you respect what they've had to do? Alistair is a top order batter. Do you respect, I guess, all the work and the shifts that they've put in. And as a captain, what were you looking for in a fast bowler?

Don't respect fast bowlers. I mean the skill of getting it down there at a good pace is exciting, isn't it? It doesn't matter whether you're a captain of it or a crowd. And without disrespect to medium paces who nibble it around, that is a very different skill and very different. But actually, as a crowd, there's nothing more exciting than watching someone bowling 90 plus miles now. As long as you're not the batter facing it, you're up here or you're in the crowd.

That's what fast bowling does. It excites captains. it excites the team. I don't think I because it's really hard to have an understanding what bowlers go through. It's physically like it's the only time I ever felt sorry for bowlers is when and it is often because it was our fault is when say the opposite they they bat it. They got 400 then we got bowled out for like 140, 150. They didn't enforce a follow on and they've had 40, 40 O's their feet up and you're asking

them to go again. But the game's almost done a. and your last one's a chuck in and I didn't particularly enjoy that feeling standing at first slip thinking I'm asking my bowls to go again Absolutely. It's an it's an it is an incredible task. I don't know The actual physical stuff I hear everyone moaning how hard it is and how much their body hurts all the times and I don't know whether it's like when you get given like the far and you're gonna bowl fast Everyone says oh it hurts so then everyone just carries on the thing because it doesn't actually hurt but they say it so it makes it look hard and it is All right. We've got some scars to prove it written finny are

yeah my knee is a mess he should respect fastballing because there was where were you out of nick somewhere and he said come on would he ball at me in the net I bowled full tick you and then you got 200 was that MCG I can't remember it was but

I've got a few double hundreds I mean you probably no no I can't remember when I asked you to bowl it I can't ask when I asked you to bowl at me were the nets as slow as the MCG pitch no I ran in properly and he's very kind he said that was that was good

because I bowled him a couple of bumpers He's like, no one ever bumps me in the net. So I bowl them a couple and he smacked them. And I'll obviously get them into good Nick and then he got a double hundred that game. So really half of those ruins should be mine. That's what I'm thinking. We never played against each other, did we?

No, never. Only ever in like practice game. You should absolutely take credit for that, Woody. Thank you. Was it a lot harder to face fastballers though in the nets? Yeah, because they cheat in like 19 yards. That's not true. But also it feels a bit more contained in the nets, doesn't it?

Horrible. A, there's no pressure on them. They've got a brand new, they've probably got a ball. They've dragged out of their own. own like out of their own suitcase of balls. Shined it all nice. The best ones. A rock hard ball of 19 yards. There's no escape.

So obviously playing bowling, it's fine because if you know like if you hit a boundary, you get going and you'll find you put the pressure on them. And the net is you do actually feel, I hated it. I hated because you felt like a bit of a sitting duck for those, for those 25 minutes of a net. This is hilarious. You felt like a sitting duck. The moment times you asked me to be Nate Watchman for that team. And your turn of being a sitting duck in the next. No, no, but out in the middle is fine.

But the bravery of the net, like trying to sum up braver and net is like, who is a net bowler who you just used to get us out a million times? Daniel Burton or something. David Burton. God, it was the best ball I've ever seen. I was like, how is this guy not playing professional cricket? And bowling at the captain as well. Yeah. You want to play.

You want to play the next test match. So if you're on the net list and you're like, right, I've got cook first up. You're like, right, I'm going to shine this ball all night. I'm going to go and get out my bag and I'm going to show him why he should pick me. So I've no doubt as well that captains had a harder time of it in the net is because everyone is wanting to vie for a spot. Because at that time you picked 12, didn't you? And it was always the spare bowler in the squad.

And so there's always normally like, obviously, Broadenampton probably picked themselves. And then there's one seamer place. It was either between whoever, Finn, Wood, Bresden or whatever. So you, as a captain, you did actually, I don't know why, but it was Flowers' mind, wasn't it? You go in there, let them bowl at you to see, which is not that we were picking on net.

but it felt like it a certain time. Let's talk about what it takes to be a fast bowler in this modern day. Woody, obviously you've talked there about injuries a little bit ago and you've almost got to be prepared to go through pain to be able to perform as you want to. But in this modern day of all these different formats and how you manage your body, how do you do it? Good question. I think there's a lot of there's a lot of factors. I think little 1% has things like, um, looking after yourself, nutrition, good sleep, all this kind of standard things, physio, the mountain table.

But Finney touched on before that, you never feel the same day to day. So we'd talk about actions before, but I would say that I never rocked up the next day and felt exactly the same as the day before, where there's something slightly different. So I think the challenge for a modern day player when going across the formats

is still being able to execute your skills while not feeling either right on top of your game or, you know, bowling at 96 mile now every time. time. You have to manage that expectation of that. You're not going to feel that every time, but how can I perform well for England? You've been closer to addressing my retired three years ago, cookie similar. What do you get the sense of young fast bowlers now and their priorities? Because when we grow up, we're a similar age. Your priority and your way to make a name and a career for yourself was test match cricket and playing in whites. Do you sense any sentiment change in bowlers to protect themselves? from a younger age to play the shorter format or not really? No, I do. I think there's a big change in general.

I think even things like gym work. So there's a lot less bowling now and more gym work done. That then lends itself a little bit more to the lesser ovars because you're conditioned to bowl less overs and then, you know, and that kind of thing. I also think that it's changed in terms of mindset. You can go all around the world and earn a lot of money just playing whiteball cricket and then test match.

I mean, I would always put test matches first, but it's not always at the front of everyone's mind. If you think that you're not going to make it there, then why not try a different avenue to play for England or a different avenue to make lots of money? So I just think the game, like now, you can go into a dressing room and everyone's, you're sat there about to play for England,

but you're sat there talking about who's going to go for what in this auction, who's going to go on the IBL and that kind of thing. So it's definitely on everyone's lips in the forefront of people's minds more than previous years. I was actually just going to go back to that rhythm point. You know, talking about how I have no understanding of it. And, you know, how are they not bowling? How is Geoffrey not bowling?

But you do as a captain. No, but you're going to first slip. Absolutely. But I actually now got way more of it since I've started doing long distance running. And that, like, certain days, like it works. And you're hitting the times you want to hit and you're putting in way less effort. And there's other days. Like, why today?

I might I say I've got a target run of whatever minute bouquet and I can't get there and I feel that must be the same for a bowler like so you're on the same thing you're doing this exactly what you think you're doing the same and yet it's coming out to like peanut pace or something for you for you for any like and then other days you just for no about really you're running this and it just clicks and I've got a real understanding of that now I wish he'd known that when he was captain oh no I think you know if he plays it down a bit I think you have a sense and understanding when you stand at first slip about how the ball's coming through.

But I felt as though my quickest days were the days where I wasn't actually trying to bowl quick. Everything was just flowing. There's this like beautiful snap when you land. Your first ball comes out and it goes through to the keeper like that and you look up on the screen, it's like 89 miles an hour and you're like, okay, this is, I'm on today. This is one of my days.

Whereas you'll have other days where you'll sprinting, you'll try and hit the track hard, and it'll come up 85 and you think, I've tried so hard there. Why is it come out like that? So actually the hardest thing sometimes I think for a bowler is to allow yourself

to just feel that rhythm and then everything seems to click into place better when you're feeling like that. So I mean the quickest spells I've seen YouTube, but obviously heading out, I wasn't playing, but up here when you bowled, because Australia here,

that was, I reckon the quickest bowling I've seen live. And then your spells in New Zealand, do you remember that white ballstone? where we were outside the 30-hour circle. We were like, I think you're off your shorter run as well. And it absolutely trammed through. And it's just, it's weird, isn't it?

How just your body can then be in sync perfectly for such short periods of time. When we're talking express pace, we're not talking like a Jimmy, there's no disrespect to Jimmy, but Jimmy for the most, the latter half his 85 year career, like the 15 years,

where he was like an 83 mile and out, obviously he bowled 90 or the younger, but, you know, most time, slightly within himself there. But you guys, in particular your extra, your super strengths was being able to bowl at that 90 mile an hour mark. And it's just that those little periods when it clicks is extraordinary. How important is technology now for you guys?

Because I remember the story of Dennis Lilly talking about. He was really struggling in the test match one day. And he went down into the trucks and spoke to the director and said, can I have a look at my bowling action? And that helped him tweak something to then go out and perform at his best. and we know that Brett Lee used to visualize by watching loads of videos of himself before going out and playing in a test match through watching his action and just seeing him do well. How much of the technology stuff comes into play just to fine tune things during a test match?

And I heard Brody the other day talk about, used to wear the GPS tracker, which gave you an indication of how quickly you were attacking the crease. Yeah, I've watched a few clips from yourself around about 10 seconds, though, the good days. so mine didn't take that long. The GPS thing's the main one because then you get the PACEA run up you get the velocity and intensity in which you're letting go to the ball. That's probably the best thing

to get with the data guys. I think for me and Finney touched on this a little bit so I think he might be similar to me but me it's more like if I shut my eyes I can still feel my action when I bowl fast so it's not so much I kind of describe to somebody I just know the feeling coming up through my body when I'm about to release the ball

or when I'm on I can feel that action of, like it's going to, I can release it and really feel that through my body. I think in the latter part of my career, I had that more consistently than the early part of my career because I'd trained it a lot, I'd bowled a lot, so I knew how to find that feeling quickly or quicker. And that meant that in training, I could bowl at 80 to 85% within myself, get that rhythm, get that feel. And then when it came to the game, I was ready to let it roar. Well, you know, we're talking about training and technology. you know back in the day without the technology people just bowled you know that you know the 80s and

I just picked up a ball and bowled and bowled and bowels and 105 miles an hour 2005 actually but you know now there's technology in it and of course you can use that science but how hard is it to get that balance right you're saying the amount your bowl and the amount of gym work you do that balance seems to be always and it's not the same for anybody is what i do you agree that for you agree it's different for everybody yeah I would be a a bowling bowler. You prime yourself physically to make sure that you're in the best possible place you can be, but I would need to bowl and feel that feeling to then allow myself to be free when you go to a game.

And I think the thing about fast bowling or the thing that I felt when I was bowling at my quickest was you needed to go into a game feeling free to be able to just to let go and trust yourself. I think at the back end of my career, I used technology the wrong way because I was obsessing too much about getting in certain positions and trying to marry up what I look like then versus what I look like at my best. And you're constantly chasing your tail and lacking confidence and knocking your confidence the whole time. Whereas when you're at your best or when I was at my best, I was completely free to just feel

that. Mine was a zip off the end of my bowling fingers. There'd be like a sting. And I'd get a little cut in my nail that would like, it would rip the nail and go towards the middle of the nail bed. But when I had that, I knew that everything was ripping down the back of the ball. And that

was that feeling. What you're laughing? I'm just laughing at a little little nail bed. No, but I'm not moaning to it her. Oh, sorry, I thought you were. No, no, no, for a change, not. But it was that. I'd look down and I'd see my nail ripping and I'd be like, I've got that zip today. I can feel that zip off the back of the ball in my fingertips. Yeah, it's a feeling of flying, I imagine, for you both.

Workloads, I imagine. You have to have a lot of trust in the doctors and the science and medicine and the physios because they're the ones that are giving you the information about how much you probably need to be bowling in a day and then feeding that back to the coaching captain and I imagine Woody when you know yourself and you know your body sometimes you might you might say well actually I think I could do more than that yeah I fell out a few times because I hated the computer says no data

or you've got you're in the red zone or you've got this many overs to bowl I used to hate that sometimes I wanted more sometimes I wanted less and I was very much someone that went on good feeling unlike what Finney says there sometimes I would go with bowling less if I felt good and I knew straight away that it was coming out well I'd be like right I'm ready to go strengthen my body up in the gym

and try and so I wouldn't just bowl and bowl and bowl there'd be some days I'd think right I'm on it yet and then some days I need to bowl more so it was always a good feel with me it wasn't almost like I have to do what this computer says and computer says today you have to bowl eight overs and train and I would be I'd hate that honestly hate it So it also depends on what you're actually going to do.

Because if the computer tells you to bowl six overs to get your workloads up, is that six overs just bowling at a mitt at like 50%? Because how is that helping you? Or is it six overs, full bifter, you know, trying to be as quick as you can so you're ready for the game. So there's almost like, I think you're much better just having a conversation and, you know, going from there. We should do bowling on the Markwood full bifter scale.

Are we going full bifter? Or not. Cookie, how much of that information are you getting as a captain? Because I'm just thinking about Joe Root here now and how he's managing his bowlers. And in particular, Joffre Archer, you know, the first time round, there was a lot of criticism around how he used Joffron, that he maybe used him a bit too much and that maybe led to injury. How do you manage it as a captain?

Well, during a game, it's kind of irrelevant. And unless you've got someone who's just come back. from an injury and you do have a chance to just just be careful with him this game but the majority of the time I reckon that's happened that I reckon that happened two or three times with who which ball I just can't remember now but I do remember saying just you know like he's just come back let's just don't but most the time you are left to your own devices as a captain you're you're just playing the game situation everything happens for the reason you know you're out there that they've been selected fit for it

it. A lot of that work is definitely on our Walmart games. When we used to have Walmart games, I was very clear like Finn Bowls 15 today, Anderson Bowls 10 within, within a figure, whatever, that between that 100% happened, but during a game it's who's the best bowl to bowl up there. And occasionally, and occasionally you don't, you know, someone went down with an injury and, you know, someone had to pick up a thing and bowl a 10, 15 over, or you end up with 30. he over's in the game because you only had three seamers or two seamers and that was just the way it is and that's absolutely the way it should be yeah you're playing for england you've been paid to play for england like how it's it's if you didn't dream of doing that as a kid then why you

playing why you're playing this sport like if you're being paid to play you should be putting in your 100% effort every time and if the captain says you're on you're on and then that's the way it should be never had ever it shouldn't be not anything different or from that never had a are not bowling from anyone. But like even like I mean like a worklord's point of view. You should never see it or you can only ball this moment. If you're fit to play and you're being paired to play for England, you ball on the cup and tells you it.

You and Monty had a standoff in Wellington in New Zealand about where the square leg was up or back. Well I think it was where extra cover was where he wanted it and he refused to bowl if he wasn't 73 yards out of the right place. He wanted an extraordinary field. But then I just had to move him and then tell him, I can't remember who it was at extra cover,

say as he walks in, quickly leg it straight, walking in a different direction. The only time I think it's acceptable is do not have to like 500, 600 ahead and it's like a five-match series. What's the point and then in that two-down? What's the point and then risking your ball off later in the series?

You might then bowl like a spinner or something then and then say, right, we'll get through a few of us because they're about to declare. That's probably the only time I can think of what I think, right? Fair enough, but all the other times you should be ready to bowl fast at all time. So you're telling us that no bowler ever came up to you and said bat first or bowl first at the toss?

I know all bowlers. Everyone was telling us what they're to do. But I was just, yeah, the bowlers were brilliant, really. Because it is a thankless task on certain occasions. On a flat wicket and it's hard and the bat is a ball and a batting well because they're allowed to. They're world class players. It is a bit of a thankless task because you are running in and you're getting nothing from it. And as a captain who doesn't bowl, you are relying on these four or five people to take the wickets.

But we had a mantra as well that even if we were up against it in a game, you give nothing of yourself to the opposition in those situations. So cookie was massive for it. So was Andrew Strauss. But even if we were up against it, you still ran in. And as bold as you set the tone in that scenario as well, so you're running in, you're trying your hardest. You're not just going through the motions because that says a lot about where you're. you're at as a team, especially early in a series, if you then want to try and fight and come back into it.

Keeping going is something that is an absolute non-negotiable. You've got the record, haven't you? For most covered, most cares covered in a testament? I think, yeah, South Town, isn't it? Yeah, South Carolina. 60 odd keys or something? Yeah, it was a lot. It was like a couple of marathons. It was, yeah, I think you, but you kept running in,

my point is you kept running in, didn't you? So it was flat as anything in Cape Town. Wasn't that where Stokes, he whacked it everywhere too, How many did I vote? I think it was 43, something like that. Do you get any... From my idea, I had to always talk about that yours was the highest in terms of cover. That was 211 overs in the field.

We did that game innings. I mean, that is ridiculous. How do you recover from something like that? Just to kind of describe it to the listener who doesn't know much about, you know, the distance that is covered. How much distance did you cover in that test match? And how are you looking to kind of get yourself back? ready to go again. Well, yeah, I think it was 60.

So it's a marathon and a half in the end that I covered across the 211 overs. Well, I ended up tearing my side in the next test anyway. So maybe there was something behind that. But you, I think you just wear it as a badge of honour. You just, and as a bowler as well, you're grazing in the outfield. You're not at slip. So those guys would cover less distance. You're doing, if you get unlucky and there's a right left-handed partnership and you're

trucking fine leg to fine leg, like you just, you wear it as a badge of honor. And I always just saw it as part of the job. Like you're doing your role for the team. You run in when the captain asks you and try your hardest. If a ball goes to the boundary, you chase it. And I just found it really simple. I refused to wear those GPSes. Because I don't want anyone to know how little I actually did.

This guy's covering 60K over the 200 oaves. I reckon if I'd have covered, well, you could probably work it out 200 overs from walking for first lit to first slip, possibly slip when the spinner was on. I was at short midwicket, so that's half that. So if I'd have been best doing 3K, and then you've got these guys doing 60K. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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Get more with BBC Podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like Evil Genius, Good, Bad Billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. I take the one thing about fast bowling, which is another balance I think we find as captains and as site, is when you get a fast bowler who comes in a can bowl 90 mile now, it is unusual. And it is that enforcer word, which is really horrible word, that enforcer role is actually a really hard balance to get right. Because as a captain, you know how uncomfortable it is, as certainly as a batting captain.

If someone is coming in, you got that bowler who does bowl, you know, Mitchell Johnson in that 2013-14 series, or you've got bold people have the ability to bowl short pitch ball. Like Wagner, it's a different pace, but that kind of thing, you do feel it as a weapon, but actually entrusting one bowler to do it, that way, like it was Brody for the first, probably three years of recruit, that enforcer. It wasn't, he wasn't the best bowler from it, but actually sometimes he did work for the size. I wonder how these guys feel about that word. Well, Joe Root now has a benefit of having quite a few that can bowl late 80s now in that squad.

And we saw it, didn't we? In Australia, they went with a squad that, you know, had four or five bowlers that could bowl upwards of 140 kilometres an hour, just like the Australians do. They have about 20 in their domestic circuit all bowling that, that sort of pace and bounce. And in that first test match, it was raw pace, wasn't it? It was raw pace and aggression yourself. and Joffra and Gass. It was just amazing to watch.

But do you feel like there should have still been space for the bowler that could just nibble it around a little bit as well, Cookie? Absolutely. On those wickets. And unfortunately, the planning for that tour was wrong. You know, like in 2017-18, when we were my last tour there, we had a lot of medium paces

and we never got, we didn't get 20 wickets very often because the wickets were flatter and they needed, you needed something different on flatter wickets of the Cucarabool. And I can't remember the COVID one, the one we all forgotten about. But leading up to this next Ashes series away from home, like Australia wickets had changed and the management had decided that the only way to win Australia, because of previous experience, you needed pace. So the balance was wrong. The balance was wrong because the pitch had changed and they were slow to wrecked.

They tried to plan two years advance, getting all these guys fit on the plane and you actually didn't need it. Now, they went down that wrong. Woody's now, I'm shuffling away from Woody a little bit because he might have a different view. I was there in 1780, Ian. Did you not play? No, not one guy. I wouldn't skipper there, was I? I wouldn't skip.

I'd blame me for that. But that's what, you know, that's what happened. That is the facts. the selection wasn't right for the whole tool for that. I hated that enforcer role. I felt like it took away. That was the right time for it as well. But I certainly feel in my career that sometimes I played a whole game where I only bowled bouncers.

And sometimes I thought, well, I'm better baller than this. And then if I only did that, now the person at the end of the day, like, it's my role in the team. Absolutely fine. If the captain needs that, the captain needs it. Right. I will do that. But it hurts me at the end of the day when I've got one for, you know, 90. and they say, well, this guy's got

4 for 30 or 4 for 40 because I've just bowed bouncer the whole time and they're scoring off it and you're trying to create chance. But what you've got to try and remember is that you're doing it as a collective. So I didn't like that name or that rule because it made me feel like it was less skilled,

if that makes sense. But yeah. You were just the only bowler that could bowl up was of 85 miles an hour at the time. Maybe, but I still didn't mean that I like and I understand what chef's saying. And I think what you do need is no matter where you go in the world, you need a balanced attack. We try to copy Australia.

And unfortunately, their attack had bowling. Their attack had, you know, other people who could do that and put us under pressure that way. And we weren't as accurate as them. Even Hazelwood, who bulls 85, 86, he's very accurate. Cummins, 87, 88, 89. He's very accurate. We just probably weren't as accurate as we could have been. are they the best fast bowling attack in the world at the moment, the Australians?

There's a lot of talk when we go to Australia about... I think they have been for a long time. Stark, Cummins, Hazelwood and Nathan Lyon up against McGraw, Warren, Gillespie Lee. But Stark, Cummins and Hazelwood together, they've taken over a thousand wickets between them. They just keep coming at you. I think it's that combination of pace and accuracy that makes them unbelievable bowlers. and Mitchell Stark is a great bowler but I think Hazelwood and Cummins

just their relentlessness of smashing a good length at high pace with good tall actions those two or two guys that I love watching bowl and I like all the actions I have as much as it pains me to see it

I have action envy with all them I watch them bowl and I think I wish I bowed like that look at how smooth that looks I look at the way he gets her them three they've got good fast bowling actions You're talking about balance.

That is that you've got three very different bowlers as well. Like the Stark, I think the Stark complements those two. You take Stark out of that attack, and I think his being such a strong left armour, actually has helped Cummins and Hazard's no end. Take Stark out of that attack, and it's actually, I think it makes a massive, massive difference to those three. But they are, you know, they're lucky because you need a bit of luck. you can't choose who you grow up with. It's an amazing spinner.

And an amazing spinner. That four man attack, brilliant. And they deserve every credit they get because they have turned themselves into, if not one of the best, if not the best attack. Certainly up there in history of cricket, a bowling attack, which everyone had ended. There are guys at the moment that I love. So, I mean, Woody will find this out whenever he moves up into the commentary box. But, like, you get excited about coming to watch bowlers' bowl now when I do this job.

Woody was one of them Hazelwood and Cummins Rabada from South Africa I really enjoyed watching Willow Rourke from New Zealand in the series earlier this summer there are guys that you get excited about coming to work to watch

You've missed your number one out Who? Bumra, have you? Well, Bumra, sorry I actually have, yeah Sorry You've written books about that, blah I have, yes and Bumra as well

That's like my list of That is my list of bowlers that I get very excited when I wake up to do this job to watch. Yeah, it is amazing, isn't it, really? The fast bowling that we have around the world, but across history, it's been incredible. And we heard Da Ager's talk about Waka and Wazim and the era that they were together and intimidating batters all around the world. 1992 was at their peak, really. 414 wickets for Wazim Akram and Waka, 373.

We'll go to Jimmy in Brody. 704 for Jimmy Anderson. Stuart Broad, 604 wickets. Over 150 test matches. Jimmy ended up playing 188 test matches as a fast bowler. I mean, that is ridiculous, isn't it? I don't think he had one operation, did he? No.

Unbelievable. Did he not? I think so, not one. Do you imagine that we're never going to see that ever again? Because of the way the modern world is around fast bowling and T20 cricket and, you know, the laws of the shorter format. Can you see a fast bowler playing that many over 100 test matches? I think it'll be unlikely. Not 180.

It's not just over 100. A daddy hundred. Just under 200. Yeah. Wow. I think it's highly unlikely. You can never, in this day and age, or anyone say never, say never, can you?

Because, you know, records are always going to be broken. Who would have thought anyone get near Sachin's record? And there's a chance that. I don't think anybody stays fit for that long, though, across all the formats. Like, Jimmy at one stage played everything. And then he just went to test matches at the end. But to not have, he's either genetically built differently,

as in these tendons and everything, or he's just been incredibly lucky, but to not have one operandi, throughout that long of a career at the highest level day after day waking up and being sore and tired and muscles then pulling and so that he's either genetically different or he's been incredibly looking I think if you watch his action beautiful action smooth as butter like lovely to watch so that certainly helps but he's kept himself fit for a long period of time that also helps but you know you could say these things you know until the sun comes up but

That's a lot of games. Even to say if someone's got a smooth action and kept themselves fit, you'd be the fit as broke in the world and not play 180 test matches. That is a lot. I'm just looking at Jaswick Brimmer, 52 test matches, over 200 wickets. Dale Stain, 93 test matches, 439 wickets. I think comparative to the 15-year career. Yeah, and comparative to the era that he played in.

So I think wickets are more sporting now. than they have been before in test cricket. And I think staying in an era where a good bowler averaged in the late 20s, I think he stood so far ahead of everyone else at the same comparative time, he was so special to watch and did it everywhere, Australia, India, here.

Yeah, he was probably my favourite of all time in the modern, modern era to watch. How much did you face him? Okay, so I actually loved facing him. No, I'd be intrigued to see what my record was against the stain. Asults is not here, so, oh, he is. He's, I was hoping he wasn't going to be here. He's going to prove my, but I think he was a far better bowler to right-handers than he was left-handed.

And I hope I've got this right because I played with Dale at Essex, a lovely guy, like one of the real competitor on the field. and yet soft as anything off the field, doesn't it? But I agree, like brilliantly fast bowler. I just, I had more issues with more cool for Lander than I do disdain, I think. It's an interesting thing though that Finney says because he actually did it all over the world.

So like South Africa, sometimes you can get real seam and wickets there and it's great for a ball at a ball. But like Finney says, he did it in India. That's not really that great for Seema fast bowlers and other places around the world. And I once saw an interview from state, and Stain said he found it more difficult in England with that ball and Brett Lee said the same and actually my records better away from home than at home and I don't know if that's I think it's actually you don't get rewarded as much for bowling fast in England I actually think it's a because the pitch is a bit slower you know that bowling

bowling fast isn't I don't think that good I'd much rather face I'd much rather face a 90-mile now bowling in England than I would anywhere else in the world because I think that that slows as the pace takes it out of that Australia didn't pick Stark here did they in 2019 they didn't pick Stark in that series

for that reason they felt as though the quick quick bowlers weren't as effective on Stain we had a team meeting before the 2012 series and we're talking about

the bowlers and how good their bowling unit is and Kev went you know he bowls 83 84 he looks to swing the ball against the top order but

jeebo sulks so quick to the tail he ramps it up to 90 against the tail you've got me jimmy and braudy it's like they're shaking i'm sure you did the same thing finny i hit him in the ribs that series which was a big mistake big mistake zaltz has just strolled over excited i'm not excited a decent cook v stain in tests uh 153 for four um so average 38 It's quite good against a bowler that good. But you mentioned against right handers in his career, he averaged 19.6 and against left handers, 28.5. Can you do a comparative of eras or is that too different,

like him versus everyone else who played in that era? I can. I'm not. Slightly tricky. Hold on. I wrote a piece about it and I think there was a five-year period when he was averaging 22 and the next best average of the, of the, I think the 30 bowlers who bowled most in that time was 28 or 29

so as you said he was way ahead of his contemporaries during those peak years I tell you his ability I don't know was that I think to bowl that fast

not that fast but quick enough sorry it was the lengths he bowed he seemed to find that you know that in between length

of that drive and not that back and I can't remember too many times where he you know hit that pitch and people just constantly left him

he had that angle into the right hand is but I think his ability to push the ball into right handers and get it to leave them, but always hitting the splice. So it's so many videos of him with people just pushing forward

and it's ripping the shoulder of the bat off and people are taking their bottom hand off. He found this like kick from a good length. Amazing. But that's the Aussie lads as well. We often talk about how many times there's Cummins, Hazelwood and Stark get cut and never seen a highlight.

There's only one highlight real I can think of it. It's when Stokes hits the winning runs. That's at any time. ever seen any of them three be cut for in the whole careers. The bowl of full of length, don't they? And well, just talking about them. So having a look at their test records, 73 tests for Pat Cummins, Stark 106.

And now we're starting to see them having to make decisions about how they prolong their careers as well. So Stark has decided not to play limited overs cricket and extend his test career. They've got 17 tests this year. So he wants to go for a little bit longer. He's 36 now. Cummins 33 and Hazelwood 35. So 77 tests for Hazelwood on 302 wickets. It'll be interesting to see which direction he goes in going forward for Josh Hazelwood. Reversewing. It's a real art form of the game. It's now an acknowledged art form within the game. Alistair, you were renowned for being the chief Shiner because you didn't sweat. But just talk us through the art of reverse wing. And what it took for the team to be able to

to be able to do it? Well, I think that the big stat about test cricket, certainly when we were playing, one of the pitches was probably still a bit different, well, they were different, was when the ball wasn't moving, either off the pitcher in the air, good players don't get out.

So no, how good the ball was, the ball wasn't moving, those periods of play after the new ball, or, you know, you normally say in England, on a good wicket, you get 20, 30 over the ball doing something, and then he got soft and you had a 50-over period, where it was flat.

And I remember Peter Moore's talking about it to us saying, got to find ways of making that ball move. So to a bowler, and now wobble seam has come in. It kind of was about, but not really about, talked about as much it was. That kind of has negated it a bit because people move. And we basically, so how do it? And then Mushtack Army came over, and he spoke to us about how to do it. And the real key bit about reverse swing was how dry,

kept that ball. So and it was and it did work you know clearly you shined it you looked up but it was the dryness of it and been relentless on it because if if someone with sweaty hands and mushy was all over us about it if someone and Matt Pryor led it because at Sussex as well if someone with sweaty hands touched the ball and put it on the dry on the dry side of it it took up probably another two or three overs to get it back to the state it was of dryness so that is so that basically Matt Pry will take it on a reverse swing and ball and throw the ball to meet him off and I'll shine the ball because I dry hands.

There was a situation in Sri Lanka. You might remember this in 2012. So we've got the ball reverse swinging and we're playing against Sangha Kar, Gai Wardner. They're piling on runs and we're talking about, we need to keep this ball reverse swinging. We go out after the lunch break. The ball gets hit to deep cover, Sammit Patel's out there. He picks it up, throws it back in and there's this big like white dollop of what is obviously sun cream on the dry side of the ball. So everyone's blowing up because it was a massive thing.

If you messed up the ball in that situation, you would be told about it because it's a whole team effort. And everyone's like, Sammy, you've got sun cream on the ball. He was like, no, it's bird poo. There was bird poo on the crowd. And then it didn't reverse swing for 10 overs. It took us time to get it back. But it was my first test match, I played in Bangladesh,

where we had to have the ball reverse swinging. We only played two seamers. And you pick the ball up and you were told, to flying sorcery into the wicket ends in front of Matt Pryor in order to make the dry side drier and rougher. So it's not cheating. You're just using the conditions that are in front of you. So you'd pick it up, hold it on the seam, and you would sidearm flick it in to make it land on that rough side and then onto Matt Pryor. Then it would go to Cookie, who would shine it. And it was this whole process of trying to keep that one side of the ball so dry in order to

help us take wickets. Sometimes I had that role of cross seamen bouncers Which had nothing to do with the game But five over as a cross seam bounces way scuff the ball on one side To then allow it to smooth and And share And actually sometimes you go right we haven't picked a side yet So you would just bowl cross seam bounces from both ends or something

And you wouldn't shine the ball Because you could quickly get a shine back up You look at the ball and suddenly A bigger scuff mark appears in the ball And Matt Pryor along with Jimmy or Brody or Stephen and look at the side, that's going to be the rough side, and then you would spend 30 seconds trying to shot, and it quickly buffed up.

Suddenly the Duke's ball buffed up nicely. We also did it in England here, where we did the opposite of that, so Stokes was big on it, where he would soak one side of the ball. Because in England, it's greener, isn't it? So it's hard to get those real dry conditions. So what we ended up doing was,

I can't remember who told her, but someone... It was Sri Lanka. I think Sri Lanka used to be at one side of it. We'd put loads of sweat on, one side the boss was it got heavier and then the ball would reverse from there so it's almost like the opposite of dry is like make it damp and as heavy on one side as you can and then you got a little bit of tail it did but the problem is is that the the ball then gets soft so for that 10 over period it works but for the next 10 after that because you've wet it the balls then I remember discussing it and a mushy was didn't like that he did not like that it was about the dryness of the

ball for us that's in our era how much fun was a reverse swing though like you know is something that would entice me to come out of retirement and want to strap them on and bowl, if you gave me a reverse swinging ball, that would be deadly in it? It's so much fun. How long would you last with the reverse wheel after your last appearance? Three balls, maybe. I'd have to go out, out, and then in swing and then your back goes. I'm done.

I would have to hope that I'd set the batter up in that. COVID, that introduced the law that you weren't allowed to use any saliva on the ball. And that remains now still. So how much harder is it, do you think, to kind of keep that one side shiny? I would say quite a lot. I would say it a lot harder. I don't know because I haven't played, I haven't really looked at the ball, the difference between it.

I would say, yeah, I think you'd get it back on. It was at a rate. You just had to use other methods of sweat, like lower back, upper. Upper? What's the strangest place you've taken sweat from? Jack Meachers Derry air Derry air

Opa Derry Air Luabaga was certainly Not sure I'm wanting to touch that ball after that Yeah so you'd have to think How early are you learning Reverse swing? Very very

I mean I've started it with Kevin Shine When I went to do England Pace programmes When I was 16, 17 He would He would take a ball And out onto the concrete

And just scrape the life Out of one side On the concrete And then he'd throw it to you And say, Do you work? Which of course you can't do in a real live situation, a real game situation. Well the best way to do it is, if you're a kid, like watching or listening and stuff,

is tape up the tennis ball, half tape with tennis ball and that would reverse miles and that was always good fun to learn. No foreign objects can be used. That is in the laws of the game. The umpires, and I am going to refer to the laws, the umpires shall make frequent and irregular inspections of the ball. In addition, they shall immediately inspect the ball if they suspect anyone of attempting to change. the condition of the ball, except as permitted in 41.3.2, which is an offence for any player to take any action which changes the condition of the ball, except in carrying out his, her normal duties. A batter is not allowed to willfully damage the ball. Where are we here? Very smart these batters, though. We just bowed it. We don't have a clue, but these

bars, they may put like a little bit of Vaseline on the eyebrow or a little bit of sun cream on their forehead. They're very clever these batters. They always find ways. We just bowl it don't, Stephen. We're honest. Honest as the day is. Well, we just do as we're told. Like when we've told to play the enforcer role by Salis. Exactly. We do it. We just, we're, we're, yeah, we just do as we're told. What I would say that, I think in whiteball cricket, I think reverse swing is a lost

art that should be brought back in 50. Hallelujah, Stephen. Speak it from the rafters again. In 50 over cricket. Louder. Bring back reverse swing. It's, but I think in, in 50 over cricket in particular, one of, Some of the best and most fascinating passages of play

have been reverse swing yorkers, and I think that the law that should be changed that hasn't been changed is if you're fielding at long off and long on, you should be allowed to bounce the ball on the pitch to return it to the wicket keeper in order to help you get one side. I'm going to get one better. I can see in 50 of us, I think you should go back to one ball. Yeah, I agree.

Because now with the, especially some of the games, small grounds, flat pitches, it's just the boat of the... I know I call you chef that. I'm allowed to call your chef? You can call it wherever you want. Sir chef. And like Sir Chef says,

if the ball doesn't move, the best bat has played, so when you're getting numbers 5 and 6 and international cricket, they're 50 other crick and they're just belting it out of the park, is a baller you're limited or margins or smaller. If that tails even just a fraction, it now brings it back in.

But then you're going, throwing into the... Do the crowd want to see sixes and fours or blokes bowling your ball? is reversed. Well here's a counter to that. In 50 over cricket, first of all, I personally would change it to 40 over cricket and play with one ball, but I don't think that's possible. So what I would do is you use two balls for the first 20 overs and then the fielding team is allowed to then pick one of those balls to the use for the next have a 30. Have one minute with one foreign object on

and then you play the next 30. Agreed. And the time that starts now. You got the I'm going to like that. You've got sandpaper, you've got board tops. I'm sure there's a lot of suggestions coming in on the back of this conversation. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So much sport today and all the goals as they go in up and down the leagues. This is Five Live Sports. It's all right to the lights and fit to the floor.

It's not to stop out. Everyone is standing around the 18th green. Overhead, get off. He shows to the centre. They will do it. Oh, the right hand. And the former champion is down. This is the tour.

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