Test Match Special - The Cowdrey Lecture Pt 1: What is the Spirit of Cricket?

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

We bring you a special episode from Lords, where the TMS team had the honour of hosting the 2025 MCC Cowdrey Lecture. In this first part, Jonathan Agnew is joined by former England captain Michael Vaughan to discuss what the Spirit of Cricket means to them, reflecting on moments from their playing careers.They also talk about the changing landscape of the sport & Michael shares his ideas for how to further modernise County Cricket.Part 2 will be out soon. Make sure you’re subscribed to TMS wherever you listen to your podcasts, so you don’t miss any episodes over the summer.

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you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and Cs apply. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Jonathan Agnew and welcome to a special TMS podcast. Now, every year since 2001 at Lords, there's been a lecture given in honour of Lord Cowdery celebrating the spirit of cricket.

Previous speakers have included Richie Benno, Emeran Khan, Archbishop Desmond Tutu as well. And this year, the Test Match Special Team was given the honour and I was joined on stage by Michael Vaughn. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Wow, what a fantastic turn out. It's a fantastic honour to be here, actually, to discuss something that, well, it kind of keeps everybody chattering, arguing, rowing in the commentary boxes as well as in dressing rooms. And that is the spirit of cricket. What is it? And the fascinating thing about the spirit of cricket

is that I think everybody has their own personal definition of what the spirit of cricket is. What I don't want you all to do tonight is to agree with everything that we say. That would be a disappointment. I'd love you to go away this evening when you've heard us chattering away. Some sensible conversation, some of our TMSI sort of a banter about all of this. But just thinking about what we've said, and I say either agreeing with it or not agreeing with it. It's lovely to have you here.

And Michael Vaughn, welcome to you as well. Go on then. Because how do you start, how do you start even defining what the spirit of cricket is. Do you know in your mind what the spirit of cricket is? The spirit of cricket is. Look, respect. I think respecting your opponent is obviously something that comes to the forefront of my mind, respecting the game, respecting those that have been before you.

I'll be totally honest. I think a lot of what we talk about in terms of the spirit of the game is utter nonsense. Nonsense? Uter nonsense. Oh, okay. And I'll tell you why, because you know, you're all England fans, I presume, or cricket fans from around the world. In 2005, you'd have been celebrating the ball swinging around.

You know, is it within the spirit of the game to put a murriment on one side to make the ball hoop against Australia? Probably not. But it's about beating the Oz's. You know, in 2009, Bilal Shafayat was the 12th man at Cardiff when Jimmy Anderson and Monty Panasar was batting out for the draw. I noticed on a number of occasions he walked out with gloves and he was dropping the gloves to delay time, tactics. We drew a series in Sri Lanka by doing exactly the same. Is that within the spirit of the game? I guess you'd have played for Leicester, England on one or two occasions.

Throwing the ball in on the bounce to the keeper to scuff at one side. Surely you'd have done that. Is that in the spirit of the game? We didn't know what reverse swing was, Michael. We're all about polishing you didn't bowl quick enough. We never do. We never, we never, but a captain, I'm surprised to hear you say that you think it's nonsense because the captain, if you look at the preamble to the laws of the game,

the captain is responsible from ensuring that his team plays within the laws of the game, but also within the spirit of the game. That's the captain's responsibility. The captain's responsibility is to win. Sports about winning and, you know, you can, well, we could argue or talk or discuss. And of course, I believe in game, to be fair, played right, and it's to be played in a spirit and a fashion in a way that entertains the public.

That for me is what cricket. it's all about and if every now and again and I see every single team and every single team I'm not saying when I was 11 or 12 or 13 or 14 but every single team and I reckon you're exactly the same and everyone that's played cricket in this room whether it's playing on a Saturday afternoon playing professionally you would have done something within that game that you could argue is not the spirit of the game what like you can argue lip salve and stuff Well, look, I'm not going as far as saying you put Sampa in your pocket. I mean, that's just what another country do.

But, you know, there's that fine line. And I guess when it goes against your team, you'll probably say it's against the spirit of the game. So I think it's a very fine margin. I'm a believer that it's a position of the skipper, the captain, in any sporting team, particular cricket is to create a culture in the dressing room that allows the players to go onto that playing field to maximise their talent and then you've got to try and entertain the public and if you can do one or two little things that help you get over the line to get that trophy in your hands you do it our spirit of the game is not cheating necessarily is it

it's not cheating it's not gamesmanship it's something something rather more subtle than that and I think it's it's easier to say that something is against the spirit of the game rather than actually is for the spirit of the game so it's easy to say oh they shouldn't do that that's that's against the spirit of the game I'm some examples well something that was definitely in the spirit of the game and we'll talk about this I know this year because it's 20 years ago since your amazing Ash's win there's one photograph really that stands out which surely demonstrates the spirit of the game and in that preamble that was

beautifully right out there the start the word respect was used three times wasn't it that's respect and that is spirit of the game that is in the heat of battle and somebody crushed by a two-run defeat that's that spirit of the game and it's respect for your opponent isn't it absolutely and that that picture tells you everything about what cricket is particularly test match cricket particularly ashes cricket I'll be honest I didn't know Freddie had done that you didn't know no we were too busy ruffling Gerard Jones's hair, I think,

and celebrating with the England supporters. And then Freddie just had this gut instinct to look at Brett leave for two hours had been peppered. You know, Freddy had hit him many times on the arm, on the chest. And he just had this moment of going up to Brett to say, yeah,

great fight. And that is what cricket is all about. It's a wonderful picture. I actually a fellow called Tom Shaw took that. And I'm amazed that he was actually looking at Flintov rather than doing what you were doing, because the action was happening elsewhere, wasn't it? We were running around, chasing about, and yet he had somehow the presence of mind to snap that picture. And, I mean, that was the photo.

It was a slightly more iconic photo than the one of Freddie on the bus about three weeks later. That just summed up that series, and the heat of battle against Australia for the Ashes. You could still have moments like that. Yeah, I mean, that's what The Ashes is all about. It's, you know, as much as, you know, you're desperate to beat Australia, desperate to. get that little ashes in your hands. Fundamentally, there's a huge amount of respect from both teams. I've been lucky enough to play in a couple.

And you know, you play so hard and you're desperate to win. But ultimately, there's a huge amount of respect between England and Australian. Ashes series, if you go back through the history of the game, it's about real personalities. You know, Freddy's a personality. Brett Lee, the late great Shane Warren. There's no bigger personality than Shane. You know, you look at the present day, Ben Stokes, Steve Smith.

And that is what Ashie's cricket is all about. And fundamentally, whatever happens throughout the seven weeks, which pretty much is the Ash's series, you shake hands, you have a beer, and you have a huge amount, not just from those seven weeks that you've played, but I look back at all my playing days, and I think, yeah, the real respect that I have for players generally are from Australia. I mean, you go back to the 90s, it was the Australians, really, that would come and play county cricket,

in particular the game that I tried to play. A lot was taught by Darren Lehman, Greg Bleu, Matthew Elliot playing against all those Australian pros in the county game and that's really how I taught myself through them how to play the game so there's a huge amount of respect between England and Australia I'm gonna say a name from that series and it's not Glenn McGar it's not Shane Warren it's not one they're gonna think of it but this is spirit of cricket yeah Gary Pratt was was Gary Pratt and his amazing piece of fielding at Trent Bridge when he suddenly miraculously

one of the best fielders in the country appeared to be fielding at point and sadly ran Ricky Ponting out. Was that in the spirit of cricket? Was that, I mean, I know the dismissal wasn't planned. No, but he was on the field quite a lot. He was. You know, and in sport.

He was on the bus as well at the end. It was. He was. And he was pissed as well, like all of us. He couldn't speak. I was saying sport, your job as a group of leaders and within your management group is to try and get the best personnel out there on the middle.

Gary Pratt was the best fielder in the county game, so why won't we want our 12th man to be the best fielder in the game? So we just tried to whine Ricky Ponting up. It was a plan. It worked. Yeah, it did. And people forget that actually it was Simon Jones, who was off the field. Now, Simon never played for England again.

So for that one moment, actually, we were in our right to have Gary Pratt out there fielding. For the other four and a half test, no. No. We cheated. Just the last thought on that series, I mean, 20 years go so fast, doesn't it? And do you still look back on that with enormous affection? I mean, England hammered here in the first test match. Let's not forget McGraw-bow and England out again.

Yeah. To come back and win it from there. Yeah, I think, I guess the biggest pride from that series is the amount of people that started watching cricket. You know, I still get many, many people come on and start. I got into cricket because of 05. And that for me is what cricket's all about. When you go out there on the middle, whether it's here at Lords, around the country, we get great support.

You know, you go back to 2005, it was on Channel 4. There was 8 million people watching it every day. Yeah, they were. And that's probably the biggest pride that I take from the series is that there was a style of cricket that people wanted to watch. And I kind of look at the way that England play now. All right, they're not winning every trophy, but they're trying to play a style of cricket that people want to watch. I think there's a lot to be said for that So yeah it's 20 years

And I do smile when I get young kids in particular Who aren't so young now Who say I only got into cricket because of that series So that probably makes all the players And those that are involved on both sides As proud as anything Because we might have just got a few more people Watching cricket playing the game of cricket

Because of that one series So yeah that's special And it was available there for people to watch free and that was a big thing about that wasn't it it really was yeah that helps yeah we're in a different age though I guess I think that's all old money you know I think we're in your heroes Michael

you could go and copy them I remember when I was a kid going on copying I agree with don't underestimate the amount of kids that see cricket now through digital don't underestimate the amount of kids that see bowling clips flying catches runouts silly moments

through TikTok through face Facebook, through X, through Instagram, which 20 years ago, you know, that wasn't there. So we can't just criticize what's gone and, you know, it's gone behind the paywall. That's all old money for me. Sky Sports have done a tremendous job and I think kids now are more, I know from my own children that they just, they don't even watch, they don't know what telly is, they're just on the tablet. You know, we've all got, well, many of us in this room have got kids who are seeing the modern

world so I don't think we promote the fact that there's so many more clips available for kids to see that possibly 20 years ago there was let's give an example of that debate that I said at the very start of this that people do have a different idea perception of what spirit of cricket is I'm gonna say a name it might there might be a few booze in a minute I'm gonna say Johnny Bastow here against Australia yeah he was out well he was out I mean he was technically out he was done but that was a

you see this is where you and I were not going to fall out Michael I've done you too long that to me was a classic still alive he leaves his crease hello you can get run out it's a classic example of spirit of cricket though I thought because actually when you look at it and I was commentating at the time and that was the end of the over

I said that's the end virtually said because the umpire was handing the bowl his sweater and bearsley put his foot back in his ground before going going out, which is the same as putting a bat in and then going out. There was an opportunity there, I thought, for Cummins and for actually for Australian cricket to have really made some friends. If they'd thought about it and the fact that it went to a replay, they had, someone's laughing,

the fact that it's, I'm trying, I'm not sticking up for Australia, but when you go to the, I mean the hullabaloo afterwards and the noise and the same old Oz is always cheating, he could have killed that by just saying, do you know, by issuing a warning, that's where I'm getting to with this. You issue a warning. Because if you warn somebody and then you do it, that's totally his fault. I think Joff Rarcher here at the World Cup final, that amazing last ball in the super over, I think he should have said to the backing up batsman and to the umpah,

I'm just telling you now, if I think you're trying to steal a run here, I'm going to run you out. Going for the man cad, yeah? Yeah, well, if you've done that, because I think a man cad's a horrible thing, the run out. I actually got hold of the ICC before the last T20 tournament in Australia and I phone them up and said I do not want to be the commentator who commentates on a World Cup final ending with a man cat or runout whatever you want to call it

I don't want to be that commentator you've got to do something about the laws but if you're warned if you're told you do that and that's going to happen there could be no argument can they it's just when it's done in a brutal sort of a way I'll ask you a question who broke the spirit cricket first who wrote it first no who in that Johnny Barstow incident who broke it first oh I see so Johnny Barstow but no I've always been taught the end of the over he wasn't he wasn't stealing a run no but you look to the keeper and give it am I all right yeah I don't think he was doing anything I don't think he was doing anything underhand he was just it might be a bit deeply but he tapped his foot in and he

walked out and Kerry ran him out so what about the skill so how do you know that Pat Cummings didn't say to how By the way, we've noticed that Johnny Buster on a regular basis is walking out of his crease. We're going to bowl a ballerboard, and by the way, just throw it straight at the stumps. It's a piece of skill. So you're totally happy with that as a... Yes. It's out. Are you?

Yes. I'm honoured, yes. Can I just have another aside, please? Thank you. That's the sound I wanted to hear. It's out. And we heard it that afternoon here. I mean, there were a lot of...

I know it was mid-afternoon, people had had a few or whatever. But that was a Sunday afternoon crowd. Yeah, I must admit, I have to say that I thought the pavilion's reaction was fantastic. I still think he was out. We're not going to go there. We're not going to go. But surely something like that is such a perfect example of this whole argument, isn't it? There's you and as me.

If that had been Steve Smith batting and let's say, Jimmy Anderson's bowl the ball and Jamie Smith throw the stumps down are you reacting exactly like you're at I am and I did I did at the Oval and in one day international when Ryan's sideboard and barged Grant Elliot down and then ran him out and they had a full opportunity there because it was done went to a replay someone with a cool head had two minutes to say this is not this is not good but I didn't do it so I was very critical of England then for that you can't knock a bat's one over and then what I can't no but Johnny was out okay well but that's the whole point isn't it

That's the whole point of this debate. I don't think anyone's right and anyone's wrong. It's just that, it's just that gray area, isn't it? I mean, the man cad, I think, you know, man cads have been going on for a long, long time, but particularly it's become prominent with the white ball game in T20 cricket. You know, when it first happened, I'm with you.

You know, I used to say, you've got to, obviously, warn the batter. Yes. I think if you get out doing it now, you're just stupid as a non-striking batter. You know the rules. They are the rules. You've just got to stay behind the line.

More people are doing it. Yeah, and don't be surprised if you get man-cadded. You know, that's just the way the, I guess the T20 world that's brought that on, you know, rules are rules. Yeah. And does the MCC, I haven't read the MCC coaching manual for a while, does it still tell you how to back up by, do you know how we were told? Yes. You backed up with the bowler bowling, so it was a seamless thing. So when he did that, you were out of your crease, weren't you?

So presumably, has it been changed? I can't. I would think the coaching man. in manuals change because the game's moved on. There's so many different skill sets and shots, but it's very clear for me now. It's a non-striking batter. You keep your back behind the line until the ball's released.

Okay, fair enough. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters, and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. Talking of the game moving on, come on then.

I mean, what a discussion point about the future of cricket at the moment. I mean, where is this game going? I mean, I know you're a modern thing, you like the IPL and all that, you go there and you commentate on it. But test cricket must surely be your first love, isn't it? Yeah. I don't know if I speak on behalf of everyone, but I'm guessing I do that. Test cricket is the ultimate. It's the pinnacle. It's still the best format by country mile in my eyes. But I just think with the way that test cricket is now played, and particularly since June 22, the average amount of overs per test match has been 282. So with 90 overs the day, and we don't get 90 and often. That's three days and 12 overs that the game is played in. That's on average.

I personally Now why is that though Is that Batsman's technique faltering because of too much one-day cricket Boycott would say that Yeah Geoffrey, love him

Yeah But he would say that wouldn't he Actually Batsman don't survive as long as did I think there's a few things I think You know June 22 Ben and Bass took over the England scene And I know we're very four England but they have changed the way that test cricket is played

They're playing a brand of cricket that I've never ever seen over a period of time They're scoring at 4.5s. They're smashing 400 in a given day. They're going out to get wickets from ball one with all these funky fields. It's fantastic. And I think in the last three years, I've been more entertained watching test cricket than previous, and I've always loved test match cricket.

And I think it's because all teams now play an ultra-aggressive game. And I think the ground staff around the world have got to take a huge amount of credit because we're seeing more pitches with a balance between bat and ball, which is what cricket is. You know, when you see, you know, in Pakistan, the first test match, you're out England won, but when you see 800, I'm trying to turn off, I'm not interested. But when you see around a par of 300, when there's a little bit of something there, it's a fantastic product. So I personally believe that it's now a four-day product. I would go with four-day test match cricket.

I'd have 96 overs per day. I know I can hear you saying, oh, but they can't bowl 90. Over here till midnight. Well, it's very simple. There's two or three things that needs to happen to get 96 overs in. First and foremost, the administrators, the officials have to move the game on quicker. They have to carry on playing in differential light. So we have lights at many of these venues.

I personally, as soon as the lights come into play, and I understand the legalities, playing with a red ball with the lights on, umpires don't want to stay out there in case something bad happens. So I get that. You just switch to a pink ball. It's an entertainment product. We have to stay out there. Test cricket is the only format that we get off the pitch

quicker than we get back on the pitch You know, I just don't understand that we get any light We go straight off the pitch You know, why can't we move to a pink ball? I can see some massive argument. So if you changed I mean the Australians rucks at the Oval So you're so I'll ask you again then so you'd rather watch television Which is where our revenue comes from within the game and see the cameras pan on to the balcony with players just sat there waiting for the lights to be No, I think I want to see them play with a red ball.

I want to see them play with the same ball. They don't stay on with the red ball. So this is just, look, this is my future. Yeah. So 96 overs a day. You have your turn, Michael. I'll tell the city to keep quiet. Nine six overs a day, four days of test cricket.

If you lose a day inside the first four, you can play an extra day. So you play that fifth day if you lose over 96 overs inside the first few days. I'd have three match series. I would have two leagues of seven. Right. So you're playing exactly the same. out of cricket. So I'm not having England, Australia and India play more than any of the country. So we can finally find out who the best team in the world is. So League of

7, League of 7, so two leagues. I would make sure that the historical series, so the ashes, England, India, India, Australia, the real historical prominent series, the first three test matches of the five-match series go towards the league. The last two are just about the history of the game, because you want a five-match series. across those historical series. Right. So we've got two leagues. I would then take test match cricket around the world.

So I would have the test match juggernaut playing in the southern hemisphere period, and there'd be no other cricket on at this time. So there's no franchise leagues, there's no bilateral one day series, everyone's playing test match cricket at the same time. Because I believe if we want test cricket to survive in 40, 50, 60, 70 years' time, something needs to be done now. You know, as it speaks, with a five-downs, format, teams playing sporadically around the globe.

The narrative just doesn't exist. The only narrative that comes from test match cricket is the Ashes, India versus Australia, England versus India-Pakistan. They don't play. No. So I can play a neutral area, yes, but not. Well, that would be another thing I bring in as long as they're in the same league. Now...

Well, this is the problem. So I'm immediately, of course, can say to you what happens if England and Australia are in separate leagues? Okay. cricket wants to go into the proper world of sport, you know, they have to be in the same league. Because if England are in league one, I'm laughing, and Australia are in league two. I think I've a lot. You know, you don't have, you know, so Man United get relegated and they might. They don't play Man City the following year because of the history. So I know I can hear

you all going, oh, the ashes have to exist. And of course I want it to exist. But if we want test match cricket to be a brand of sport that has a narrative that we can completely understand we have to have two leagues and the best seven teams will be in the first division and the second best set of teams will be in the second division so there's so you'd cancel the ashes well i'm guessing that england australia with the amount of expenditure that they have and the amount of fortune that they have if they're not in the first division something's gone drastically wrong right really wrong and it's probably down to the overrate because that's the reason why they don't really make the World Test Championship final

England side because of their over 8. So yeah I mean you have to start from somewhere and in 2000 the bottom two teams ranked in test cricket were India and England well they'd be in the second division. You can carry on I guess with the test cricket as it is and it'll be great I'll watch it I'll comment on it fantastic but yes if we want it to be a real narrative going forward for 50 60 70 more years and we want the next generation to be really engaged with it you know I think we need to know exactly the best team is I think by having equal amount of games over the period of however many years you know we then get to the point and also in

the first division whoever finishes bottom of the first division has to go away to the team that finishes top of the second division and they have to win if they don't beat the team that finishes top of the second division they get relegated so I just think it brings more of a commerciality I think it would be a product as long as there was nothing else played and I guess that is the political kind of landscape of how you get all these countries around the world to agree upon a period of the year every year where just test match cricket is played and then you know what for the rest of the eight and a half months go and play as many franchise leagues as you want

I personally believe bilateral whiteball cricket is gone I just don't think there's enough time in the calendar to play bilateral whiteball cricket I would play bilateral whiteball cricket 50 overs and I just think I'd play it leading up to the world cups you know so a month leading into a 50 over World Cup, play a load of friendlies leading into the 50 over World Cup, vice versa with T20 cricket. I just don't think we've got enough time in the calendar to have all the franchise leagues, which, let's be honest, create a huge amount of revenue for the game. You only have to look at what's just happening in the UK with the 100.

If you want that and you want the bilaterals and you want five-day test match cricket, I just don't think we have enough months in the year. But the big thing is, I just want test cricket to have its window. I just want test cricket to have that period of every year where that's all we talk about. And I think if we do that, I think the next generation will always get into the game that we generally love the most. And also, you kind of look at, you know, I look at the West Indies. You look at the West Indies in the last 10 years, the amount of legendary, and I call them legendary test match players that don't play for the West Indies in Test Match cricket because of the white ball game. I want to see the best players in the world playing Test Match cricket for a long period of time.

And I think if you just had this window where that was all that was played, I think players would play. I don't think they, well, they don't have an option to go and choose a franchise league. Let's talk about the franchises, because it has now come close to home, isn't it? A huge amount of money, but hasn't actually been paid yet, has it? There's still some arguing to be done, I think. But these bids have been received and they've been accepted, raising 500 million or something in the game. That's just here. Do you think that franchise cricket is test cricket's biggest danger at the moment?

Is that the most likely way that test cricket could end? Yeah, but I look it in a different way. I think franchise cricket is helping save the game. Because the amount of money that is generated through all these franchise leagues around the world. Where's it going to go? Where's the money going to go? Where's the money going to go in the UK? Well, you know, you've got an 18-county system. Yeah.

So you're going to bail out, dear old, my old Leicestershire again. You'll pay off a few bills there. Well, no, I'd get rid of Leicester to be honest. But I think There's one gone But I think I think I probably would as well That's a sad thing about it

The way the modern game's going I don't see a future TV TV broadcast deals Are on the decline They are So you need to find a revenue source That funds the game away from broadcast

And I think the ECB have found that in this 100 board tournament I guess it'll be a T20 tournament In a few years' time That's my guess And then you're looking at a kind of global broad

forecast deal that I guess that's what they're arguing about at the minute. Now, without that money, how are we going to, and it's not just the 18 men's teams that have to be funded, there's the women's game now. There's so many other teams, pathway programs, grassroots cricket, there's a huge amount of money that the game requires, that's in the UK. Now the three and a half week, 100 ball window, for me, is not the biggest threat to our game. The biggest threat to the game in the UK is all these other leagues around the world. And if we don't have a 100 ball tournament or a T20 tournament that can pay our players the

money that they could earn in Pakistan, the Caribbean, the MLC, America, now we'll end up losing a lot of our real quality county players to go and play, you look at James Vince now, he's left the county game, Alex Hales has left a county game, Moen Ali's not playing this year. So there's three quality players that I would love to have seen carry on playing in the UK. Now they've chosen and they're in their right to do so and I don't, you know, I look at what they've done in going to live and divide absolutely right it's the best for them but you know we've got to make sure that we've got enough money in the coffers to make sure our

players don't leave the UK and i think that's exactly what the hundred's going to do you're going to be able to give county players and whether it's right or wrong and it's probably not right but a lot of the real quality county players are going to play for the eight teams you know the eight counties that have got a hundred ball franchise they're clearly going to have a few more quid so the better players are going to end up playing for those teams and they'll get a deal with the county and the 100 ball team at that venue now I understand that there'll be many counties that will lose quality players on that kind of regard but I'm just happy that those players are staying in the UK to play

cricket yeah this is the home of cricket I am a member of MCC so I think I'm perfectly entitled to have a say that the MCC's role is cricket's guardian how will MCC about you I've got to answer this I'm so I'm to bring it out there how will the MCC retain its its influence and relevance on the game that we do really want to protect now that it is also now part of the franchise machine that's gobbling up cricket I mean I I I'd matter yeah I just look at you know Kane Williamson signed this year for Middlesex he's playing for the London spirit that for me is where the addition is of the hundred I mean

I don't know but I can't imagine that Kane would come over here without a hundred ball contract so I'm again looking at as a as a positive that you know the MCC and all the the the other seven franchises will be looking at trying to develop a quality team but with that if we can add on to the county game with players it can only be good for the game you know we have to try and get a system in here in the UK that you know I'll go back to Andrew Strauss's high-performance review I was staggered that the game through that in the bin because it was a high performance review of the game to make

English cricket better. Now, why has that been put in the bin? Just because it upset one or two counties? Counties didn't like it. I mean, exactly. So if we want to be, let's be honest, in English crew, we've had great times. We've had some wonderful moments in the last 20 years in particular with Ashes serious wins. We've won World Cuts, men's and women's. But we've never had a period of dominance like Australia have. You know, I think India potentially could go through an era of dominance. The system that they have in India now is, it's through the roof. All the academies, the amount of players that are playing the game, the pathway program with the youngsters, the professionalism in terms of the preparation of their players, both physically, tactically, technically and psychologically

and psychologically in India, and that's high performance. Don't be surprised if they rule the roofs for the next 10 or 15 years because they've developed something. The real depth. We put that in the bin. You know, we said, oh, now, we're English cricket, we're fine, we've got 18 counties, we know what we're doing, we'll play all summer. the county players get on the treadmill tomorrow morning and you know what they don't stop playing until September the 29th you know seriously

so you're giving our next generation the chance to play cricket great but then you're not giving them the chance to play cricket to a high performance level and I personally would take the county game and spread it across more mums I would start county cricket in March what

yeah I would we were wearing long johns when I was playing but I wouldn't be playing in the UK, I'd start overseas. Oh, okay. So the last 30 years, when I've been playing and now commentating on the game, I guess many things get discussed.

One of the things that we discuss is, are we don't produce spinners, enough spinners. We don't play spin well enough. Our seam bowl are only good with the duke ball. I said, okay, then why don't we start and have two rounds of county cricket? All counties go overseas pretty much in March anyway for pre-season. And why not

trying to get into bed with India? And why say to India we'll we'll start our county championship in March in India and by doing that you'll get more English players the chance to play overseas with a different ball to a dupe spin would come into the game and our players would have to get better at playing spin I know there won't be many people be able to afford to go to travel to Abu Dhabi or Dubai or Bangal or wherever this a couple of rounds takes place but YouTube is a huge kind of formula in terms of the way that people watch county cricket now.

The YouTube numbers last summer were fantastic on the county game. Now you go to Indy, you can still watch it on YouTube and by the way you might get a few local Indian business people that go, okay, we might invest in into that. So that's why I'd start county cricket, same amount

of games, but just spread it across seven months rather than six and the conveyor belt might just be a little bit better for the players in terms of high performance. There'll be more from the Test Match special Spirit of Cricket Lecture in another podcast available on BBC and look out for our latest commentary matches from the County Championship and the IPL.

favorite goal scorer's, best moment, and even our all-time 11th. Now that, gentlemen, is a list. No, what did he didn't get on a list? He didn't get on the reserve list. You can listen right now on BBC Sounds.