Test Match Special - The Cowdrey Lecture Pt 2: What does TMS mean to you?

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

We bring you a special episode from Lords, where the TMS team had the honour of hosting the 2025 MCC Cowdrey Lecture. In this second part, Jonathan Agnew is joined by Michael Vaughan, Phil Tufnell and Ebony Rainford-Brent to discuss what the Spirit of Cricket means to them and their memories of TMS.There’s also chat around who will be England’s next white-ball captain, as well as a look ahead to a big year for both the England men’s and women’s teams.Make sure you’re subscribed to TMS wherever you listen to your podcasts, so you don’t miss any episodes over the summer.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge, perfect for the ultimate defender, the high-performance Defender Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D dynamics air suspension. Learn more at Landrover.ca. This podcast is brought to you by Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. With Wise, you can send, spend, and receive up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Plus, Wise won't add hidden fees to your transfer. Whether you're buying souvenirs with pesos in Puerto Vallata or sending euros to a loved one in Paris, you know

you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and Cs apply. from BBC Radio 5 Live Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast and the second part of the Cowdery Spirit of Cricket lecture which the TMS team delivered at Lords I was joined on stage by Michael Vaughn Ebony at Reinfraint and Phil Tufnell

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live How many days cricket do you think you've played here at Lordsville? Well, crickie, middle sex-wise 20 years I've played for middle-sex there. Over a thousand? Over a, yes, well over a thousand. You're an MCC member?

No. It's in the post. It's in the post, Tufters. I remember all those days of lamb chops and spotted dick and gatt and everything. Yeah, Mike. I saw Gat that day. Yeah, he's turned into Henry the 8th.

He has. He's like a cube. Yes, he is. Poor old boy, I know. Now look, what a captain of cricket. Yes. Spirit of cricket. I'm fair to say that I've watched you in some of your appearances.

Yeah. Sometimes, it's very occasionally, you might have pushed that spirit of cricket line just a little bit. But you're quite a traditional old soul, aren't you? Well, yes. I think, as you've all been saying, thanks for having us, by the way. It is difficult. I think you know it when you see it, and I think you definitely know it when you don't see it. And it was interesting to you about...

When you don't see it. Oh, I see when you think it's a contravention. Well, absolutely, that's right. And we were talking about Johnny Bearstone and everything. And I think I'm afraid of you, Agarzel. Are you? Yes, I am. I always did like you.

I think last ball of the over and everything. I think that that was wrong. I think that, you know, wasn't taking the run and all that kind of stuff. I mean, we had Rishi Sunak in the... We did. Yeah, he was going absolutely crazy. He wasn't happy. He wasn't happy.

And none of... Because he wasn't stealing a run. He wasn't doing anything. Absolutely. We've had that conversation anyway. No, no, sure. So when you do see it, you know, I think it's very difficult, actually, for players to sort of embody it, actually. I think almost we are the people who are the spirit of cricket, you know what I mean?

Because the players are so in a bubble and you're so in that sort of moment, you're fighting and scrapping and ducking and weaving. Yes. That it's very, very difficult to actually sort of then sort of like bring that out of yourself. I mean, I went on 10 England tours, you know, foreign ambassador for the country. How many did you see out from start to finish? No, but I mean I went over there and it's funny, you know, I don't think out of all of those tours, I stayed in one night of any of those tours. So you are...

Is that spirit of cricket? Well, no. A different type of spirit. No, it's not. But I mean, it's sort of like you get in this bubble. this bubble. Yes. I did jot down the spirit of cricket.

Just very briefly. Disputing umpires' decisions. Yes. I've seen... Yeah, that was a mistake. That was a mistake. Are kicking a cap down to the boundary when one's been given not out? Well, that's right.

Well, it was Sachin Dendalkin. It was the first time he would have ever been stumped. You know what I mean? And so you do then have these moments of sort of, ah, you know what I mean? And it's very, very difficult, because you're trying to make your way in the game. You're trying to nick a few quid. a few quid and you want to be picked and you want to represent your country and you're absolutely striving for it i mean it's interesting you talk about umpires and everything i'll tell you

a little story about that my first test match i don't think they'd actually let you know almost from a duty of care was at the mcg nice yeah for debut at the mcg bloody hell you know what i mean and so that was an interesting one and i used to have a little tell when i bowled that i sort of run up and and bowl and after sort of three or four balls I'd go to the umpire and I'd sort of go how many left in the umpire you know how many balls left in you know in the over ump like that and so I'd bode me first four balls of my debut and it was a chap called I think it was Peter McConnell was the umpire Australian yeah should the Australian umpire no neutral umpires well they thought they were part of the team no that's right but they didn't have any

neutral umpires or anything like that so I'd bolt me four balls and I was walking back and as I'd walk past him, I'd gone, you know, how many balls left up, like that? And he turned around to me and said, count them yourself, you pommie b***. And I went, I went, excuse me, you can't talk to me like that. But so that just shows the different. And I think Michael touched on it. Michael touched on it as well.

Different, different countries have different ideas about the spirit of the game. Yeah, I think it's very true, including the umpires. Ebbs, a cherubic face, I can't believe for a minute that you cause any problems on the field. Hello, everyone, first of all, thanks for having me. Firstly, I'm grateful to Michael for softening the blow when it came. I wasn't sure if we were going to come in and all say we abide by it all the time and we're very good on the pitch. I grew up with three older brothers, first of all. I think it's worth, I'm the youngest, three older brothers.

So I'm just putting into context that winning was very important. And you don't win as the youngest sister by always playing perfectly by the rules. So that was embedded in me as I've got older. You know, I've gone around the world, been fortunate up to play. And you know where it's, I think the spirit of cricket actually sometimes is hardest in club cricket. Anyone here who's played club cricket, I think that's where it's harder than internationals. Internationals, there's a million rules. There's policed.

There's police. There's TV. But when you get to a club game, this is where it can go pear-shaped. So an example for me, I ended up, unfortunately, finishing. my career with a two-match band. Wow. What? Love that.

Seriously? Yeah. It wasn't my fault because actually... It never is, Ebony. It wasn't my fault. So, listen, anyone who's played club cricket, sometimes in the leagues, there are some umpires which are known on the circuit to favour their own. You bring your home umpire, don't you?

So, you know, it's volunteers, you bring your home umpire. So we're not, in this particular league that we were playing, I was playing for Sheperton, we were playing a team in Hampshire. That won't mention their name, but they know who they are. So they're known to have this unpilot had been a little bit sketchy with decisions. So what also frustrated club cricket is when internationals came back from playing international cricket, came back into club cricket, and started scoring run. So anyway, I think they were a bit annoyed that a couple of the England girls had come

back to play. So we're smashing them everywhere, by that, just to let you know, we were just getting stuck in, cashing in. And this lady bowled a ball that I would describe as a filthy delivery. went to third slip. We've all bowled them. We've all bowled them. I've bowled them. It went to third slip. So I hadn't played a shot. I'd got leaned back and across, saw the ball, and just kind of left it. So I turn around and the umpires got his hand up. Mike, come on, come on, come on, come on. Of a court? Yeah, caught. So I said, mate, I didn't play a shot. So I, which I didn't,

the ball was so wide. And basically, the keeper dived so far across, dropped, knocked the ball into that. It was just a horrendous bit of cricket. Anyway, the wicketkeeper decided to send me some choice swear words and told me where the changing room was, where the bar was, where the police station was all in swear words. So she kicked off and I said, look, this can't be real. And then I think I saw Red Mist. I may have possibly said choice words all the way around

from the wicketkeeper all the way around. And then that was me done. So I got told off. I agree. I think club crickets wear the hardest. That could well be. Yeah, because, you know, you get different levels of people, different motivations. And they see things on the telly as well, and they think, well, that's all right, we can get away with that. Yeah, the spirit of cricket. So anyway, you know, it's not my finest moment.

No. And I did retire after that, and I realized. I think you're lucky to get two games. What do you, with your ACE program, so young Afro-Caribbean kids, what do you teach them about the spirit of cricket? Yeah, so we've got charity. Amazing. We've got 20,000 kids around the country in six different cities. And many are making professionals.

We just had a kid signed to Sussex as a rookie the other day. So we've got kids who want to make it. I think being honest, it's harder to sell some of the things that we sold to, maybe my generation and before, to the younger generation. So what I mean is the kids will watch football, and you'll think of something like a man cad, and you'll say, oh, maybe you should give a warning, like you're saying earlier. And these kids will go, well, in football, there's no warning that there's off-sides. There's no warning you're out to win. In rugby and a scrum, there's no politeness, you're out to win. So I think it is a little bit harder with the younger generation

to sell some of the spirit of cricket. I think respect is important. Knowing the laws of the game is very important. But when it comes to those moments like the Johnny Best, I agree, I think the kids will tell you we want to win. And I understand it. So it's a little bit harder to get in that nuanced space. And you have debates and you have conversations

and when games go. And I think the key is to make sure, you maintain that line of respecting opponents and I think the key is also to uphold the values of the game you know you never want the game to kind of just disintegrate so therefore it is important to maintain it but it is hard to say winning his priority and I think the younger generation have just a little bit less you know focus on being polite and nice and they they want to win and I've always do not be honest I used to when I started playing cricket because I played

football basketball lots of different school sports I remember just thinking why are we clapping in the opposition I wanted to give them a stare down and I'm like I really didn't I was like what is this about and it actually you know in hindsight it I still struggle with things like that you know if you're playing a game you don't really mean it do you know because you really just want to you want to go into silence so I think there are some things that are harder to explain but equally respect and knowing the laws is where I think it's important it's funny actually I had the pleasure of bowling against

Brian Lara for two and a half days in Antigua oh yeah and she got to know pretty well yes and when he did get to three 175, you just mentioned it there, we're all sort of going, yeah, well, don't know. Well, we can talk about Test Match Special in a second, but I was shown the other day a lovely old piece of footage. It was a show now. This is Test Match Special back in the day. I think it was 1997. And it just gives a glimpse into what Test Match Special was like, well, not in the early days, but, well, 30 years ago or they're about. Test Match Special is a program renowned for its characters. Come on. Go and meet a few.

Here's a box. It's a great shame. Peter Baxter, producer. Fred Truman, larger than life. Good morning, Fred. Good morning, everyone. CMJ. Good morning.

Trevor. Good morning. And they're over there and they call the bearded wonder. Good morning. Here we are. This is where it all happens. Bill Frindle keeps his eye on the facts and figures, and Fred's memory of past matches is remarkable.

You know that you've got an audience out there. audience out there, you've got a captive audience, they're in motor cars, probably the housewife, or probably she's in the garden, or probably the farmer doing his tractor, and all these sort of things who are interested in the great game of cricket, and so you have the privilege of telling them what it's all about, the game you love, and being paid for it at the same time, which can't be a bad, can't be a bad whole life, can it? It certainly isn't, and our overseas friends keep coming back. The ABC's commentator Neville Oliver was given an unforgettable introduction.

I remember that Christopher Martin Jenkins, who is a bit scatterbrained, I mean, no matter how you want to paint it up, he can be an absolute twit at times, and he introduced me and he said, look, I've worked with this man in Australia so many times, that's my pleasure to have the privilege to introduce him to the English audience for the first time, and I'm sure you'll enjoy the work of Nigel Oswald. And it was an absolute gem. Well, instead of sitting down nervous, I in fact sat down roaring with laughter, and isn't it amazing what will break the nerves? and for me it was a terrific start that's frankly it's got better sense some people it seems even resort to phoning us at awkward moments caddick in outside the off stump no stroke there from Taylor and um the commentary team ideally is is a mix of voices and styles and the cricket lovers have the one or two people who the CMJ who's absolutely down the middle with the cricket and then you're a bit of both and I'm I'm

the idiot on the outside. And we're none of us going to please everyone, are we? There we go. A bit of a reminder. No, it's lovely, isn't it? Yeah, it's really nice. And so that Judy Martin Jenkins is here, and James as well. It is remarkable. A relationship with an audience that surely no other sports program on the radio has. I mean, Tuffus and I go off and do theatres and thousands turn up. There is something about that program. Something about Test Match Special, that it is company, it's there, we're on for five days at a time, or if Michael only wants us for four days, which, there you go. And it is a constant part of people's life, and it's an extraordinary programme to work on.

When did you first wear, Michael, of TMS? I would think it was the 80s. I would have been 13, 14, the ashes would have been on. and I was in bed with you, I guess. No, you weren't. That predates even me, Michael. But you'd have had Christopher. You've had Brian Johnston, maybe.

Yeah, John O'Ozai. Alan McGilveray, the Australian commentator. Yeah, but it's, I mean, you probably, I hope you remember. In 2009, I was retiring. I was playing at Scarborough for Yorkshire. And I knew my days were done. I could hardly run. And you actually drove up to see me and came on the outfit and said,

I'd love you to join Test Match Special. Of all the kind of chairman of selectors or captain's coaches that have asked me to play in a cricket team, I would say that was the best conversation that I'd received because I'd been brought up listening to the radio and to think that it's only now that I've been found out because I used to say, you know, I'm going to work. And now my daughters now say to me, Dad, that's not work. You go to eat a bit of cake and talk a bit of nonsense and then have a few pints at night. I said, yeah, that's pretty much what we do, but it's always a joy. it's a real privilege to arrive at any cricketing venue around the world

to think that we're there to talk a bit of cricket. But there's something about the radio that's very, very special. Yeah, it just works, doesn't it? Tough as one was your first. Cricy, O'Reilly, I think it was probably my first sort of, you know, imagination of anything. I could remember sort of like sitting in the back of my dad's full courtina, you know, about five or six years old or something. Like going down at Brighton, stuck in a traffic jam, you know,

with an ice cream or something and just the sort of like words sort of like wafting out of the radio you know what I mean which just sort of and it was just like the backdrop to our summers really you know me mum would be making a bit of dinner as you say his old Fred would say and my dad would be mowing a bit alone or something and it was just just on in the background all summer you know and one of his first words he ever said to me which I can remember was talking about the spirit of the game was it's just not cricket and that's a little bit gone out of the sort of

You hear that, yeah, yeah, yeah. What I find, and it's where I think radio sets it apart from TV, is that radio is that companion, and whereas television will kind of talk at you or talk to you from the wall or wherever you have it, the number of people come up to me and say, I remember where I was when I was listening, like the Ben Stokes hits Cummins before, a heading or whatever, because when you're listening to the radio, you actually have to work,

you actually have to engage your brain, you have to actually actually make those the words into images. They kind of burn onto the memory, don't they? But it's extraordinary how radio does do that and the lasting images that people have. But sometimes you have to be serious. And Ebony, you at the moment, you've had quite a serious job to do, away from TMS with the women's cricket, a bit of a shambles in Australia, let's be honest. But a good thing.

I wasn't playing, I guess. No, he was. No, I'm not blaming you for that. But a good thing that women's cricket, which is progressing, and whatever we say about the 100, I mean, it's had a dramatic impact on women's cricket in a very positive way. Good thing that there has now been a review into that,

which you'd have had at the men's game for years, of course, and people get sacked. Well, a couple of sacking for women's cricket now, and you're on that review, and is, I mean, is a good sign that actually that is happening women's cricket now. Yeah, this women's ashes was quite a, you said a really good point. We were doing a five live show.

We do these sort of Monday night shows, as you're often on, aren't you, you guys kind of lead the way on that, where you talk about what's going on in the cricket space and obviously lead on England cricket. And normally when I've done these shows in the past and over the years, it's like a five minute at the very end of the show. You said we've done 45 minutes on the women's game out of a, it was nearly 50 minutes out of an hour's show. And to have leading voices like yourself know the insides and outsides of the game, to know

how much people were commenting on it. This was serious business. public are invested, public care, and they don't want to see England in such a bad way losing 16 kneel down under in the women's format. So it was quite a seminal moment for me realizing how important it is for the women to get it right and be seen. They're performing and they're at the same level. Now they get paid. I didn't get paid by the way. And now the girls are making the money.

So, you know, it was one of those moments. So I think there is that. But that makes a difference though, isn't it? I mean, they are now professionals. Do you think, and I'm going to bring up the effort. word fitness which is I think it's always been a difficult thing for a for a man to talk about with a woman's fitness I don't know why but it just feels that it is Alex Hartley has got in there and she said look some of these girls are not are not fit enough

letting the team down and some of the members of that team did not take that sort of criticism very well are they being dragged into the professional age now have they got to open their eyes a bit yeah I think England women are evolving into the professional era and the Australian women have been professional for a lot longer and so The delicate line when it comes to the fitness for women is the honest answer is people get nervous because women and body image and other issues. If you mention fitness, it can mean different things to different people. It can send someone into a dark place because of body image. But there is also the professional side where the honest answer is the Australians are way fitter than England.

And their standards are higher and they're more ruthless. And so even though England can at the moment compete against most sides in the world and pretty much, if you look at the record, But I think England had won like 80% of bilateral series in the last couple of years. England have been dominating. But when they go against Australia and when the pressure hit in the last couple of World Series, those things are telling the fitness, the small margins. And a good example for me, Beth Mooney, who's an Australian cricketer, in her early career, wasn't considered fit by Australia.

And she got dropped. She came and ran more twos in the Ashes series than the whole England women's side. So if you talk about fitness, things like that go, look, the Aussies are here. And the England girls, we have to accept that if we want to compete and take on the best side, we have to up our standards. So, you know, the media in the room, I think it's just a natural evolution of understanding that professionalism now for the women's game equals more criticism, more attention. And so I was quite vocal in that, both in the media, both behind the scenes. And I think now there have been some changes that are going to say, look, this is the future that England need to focus on, up that professionalism, not so that we can dominate most teams, so we can take. take on the number one and overtake

them. Yeah, interesting. Just quickly, just on the fitness thing, you know, very early on in my... Sorry, this is an unexpected intervention. Well, no, you kind of well, I decided very early on that if you don't have any muscles, you can't pull them. You're listening to the TMS podcast

from BBC Radio 5 Live. And what about England's white ball captain then the men we're hearing all sorts of rumours here even talk of Ben Stokes now this is rumour this is rumour his legs will fall over well I but it's it's it's quite a firm rumor isn't it I mean come on Michael I'm gonna let you off the long run here I think you're on the same place here Ben Stokes white ball captain of England with the ashes coming up no I think you know we've all been around cricket long enough to

suggest that when they don't announce the captain, they clearly have got Ben in their thoughts. Harry Brook will be the T20 captain. I think that's going to be announced soon. That's something that I would expect. And if Harrybrook is good enough to be the T20 captain, the next World Cup is the T20 World Cup in a year. So if you're saying that Harrybrook is deemed good enough to captain a World Cup in a year's time, surely you want Harrybrook to be the captain of the 50-over team with that 50 over-cup in two and a half years time. I think it's absolutely nonsense to think that Ben Stokes is going to play.

whiteball cricket so do I he's had a body that he gives absolutely everything and that's not just when he's playing for England you'll have to see the way that he's training you know he's all or nothing you know I think it's quite in a way selfish to even consider him because he will say yes because it's Ben Stokes and he'll do whatever England ask him to do don't ask him just let him be the best and I have him right up there with the best test captains I've ever seen with what he delivers what he's delivered in the last three years and the way that he's got England playing, the way that he's played himself, is right up there with

the best. I want to see Ben Captain, and it's not just India this series in the summer, it's not just this Ashes series away from obviously here in the UK. I want to see him captain in 27 in the Ashes series. I want to see him get England to a World Test Championship final. We've never been in one. Why put the burden on him playing whiteball cricket? It was only a few weeks ago. He pulled out the 100 because his body wasn't quite right. So why are we even considering putting more, and it's not pressure on Ben because he deals with pressure better than anybody. So it's not the pressure, it's just let's just look after his body. Let's look after Ben Stokes his body and let's try and make him play test match cricket for as long

as possible. I agree. Let him get an Ashy series in his hand, another Asher series. I just can't imagine what the reaction would be if he did that hamstring or any injury, frankly, playing in a white ball game for England with that World Cup two and a half years away, it seems utterly pointless. Tough as, what's your thought? on that. Have you got any? Well, no. I mean, well, yes. You're still dwelling on your fitness. Well, no, I totally agree with Mike. It can't be bed. I think probably Harry Brooke. I was, you know, I mean, they've been mentioning sort of like that's Sam Billings, James Vince, but now they've sort of gone away, and they've been a bit too old now, aren't they?

So I'm probably going to go for someone like a, you know, a Harry Brooke. I mean, he's still very young, isn't he? But, you know, why not throw these youngsters in? Because then in the future going to reap the rewards yeah and talking of Australia can they win the ashes with basball toughers listen I like basball do yes I do I like it they win some games but they don't have to lose some as well they do I think it needs a little bit of yeah yes I think it needs a little bit of tweaking but you know and just to sort of like be a little bit smarter at it you know I mean I mean the game here against Australia was just my head in my hands was it

Nathan Lyme walks off with a hamstring 180 for one every single australian was on the boundary and you know and then we just kept slapping it straight to them you know they'd gone they'd absolutely gone so they just need to dial it down a little bit and be a bit smarter but um we know turning up every day to test match cricket now it's it's really exciting we don't know whether they're going to get bowed out in half an hour or go get 750 so you know and so you are sitting there you know and i can remember Joe Root, reverse sweeping at Pat Cummins. I'm trying to forget it.

Yeah, absolutely. I've nearly fell off my chair, you know what I mean? So there's obviously a balance and a blend that they've got to find, but I'm thinking that that is the way to go. As you say, Mike was saying earlier, you know, it's about entertaining. You know what I mean? And I am sat at that desk. It's also about winning.

It's also about winning. They've had some massive defeats through reckless batting. Yes, but I think that the winning will come. The winning will come more often if you're playing that way. if you start going into your shell you're not going to win bloody anything. The only way you win test cricket now is go out there and be front foot cricketers and that's how you win things and i love sitting there now i mean we go Mike said it we have got the best job in a world we sit there

cup of tea and everything you know sandwich and looking and it's just it's enthralling love it but it is from ball one exciting yeah um michael ashes winner basball can it win the ashes or will it win the ashes um I think in three years I've been more entertained watching than I have been before, but they weren't win just playing one way. You know, you've got to, you have the intent when you play Australia to be aggressive. You know, that's first and foremost that you have to have that mindset of, right, we're going to get on the front foot, this team have that.

You know, without any question, they get on the front foot quicker and sometimes better than I've seen any England team. But you can't win just playing one way. So when you get on to Australia, Perth, the first test match, If England have that skill set and that mindset to get on top, which they could, you can't allow Australia back in. And with the way that they played in the last Ashes series here, I go to Edgebast in the first test match.

They were dominating that game in the second innings. The bat in the control in the game. They can't lose. Nathan Lyon got five wickets. There wasn't one fielder around the bat. Nathan Lyon then walked away from the game here at Lords. England, top-edged every pull shot. they get bowled out, they lose the game, the tunnel down.

So Nathan Lyon only played really one game of cricket. So when you go to Australia in a few months' time, their bowling attack is very, very good. And the game of cricket in Australia has not changed. The Cuckaburra ball for 25 overs, it's going to do plenty. And it'll fly through. And particularly in the first innings, Cummings, Hayser would start Boland, Nathan Lyon, whichever attack they go for,

they will land it on a sixpence, and they'll have a pack cordon, say to the bas-ballers, there's your drive. I can see it now. If England go for the drive, I can also see 50 for 5 on a regular basis. But if they have the mindset, realizing that is when Australia are at their most threatening

and going, okay, we've just got to go back in the gear slightly. I'm not saying completely, go back in the gear slightly, and you earn the right. So if you're about for 30 overs with the Cuccaborough Ball, and say you're 70 for 1, the next 50 overs till the second, new board you can absolutely dictate and dominate and you can score at five

sometimes sixes because it does nothing all you have to do is work out how you're going to play Nathan Lyon I get a feeling that England are just going to go out and attack fully try and get on the front foot and by the way we'll sit on comments go wow wow that's a great shot and I'll give you a clue and it's happened for many many Australia don't drop chances that quart quartet and if Beau Webster's their camera and then I'll They catch absolutely everything, so don't give them the opportunity. So if England go with this one way of playing, I think they'll get beat.

If they play smart cricket and their bowlers are fit, and that's the key, you've got to get 20 wickets. You know, and to get 20 wickets, you've got to have different skill sets. It's not just about pace. Yes, it's nice to have one or two bowlers bowling 90 miles an hour, but for what I've seen in Australia, particularly in the last couple of seasons, the pitchers are doing more than I've seen. So Scott Boland, probably their best bowler in Australia, he bowls 8 to 3 miles an hour, he lands it on a 6-1, so he goes, Bob. If we just go out with all out pace, generally you bowl back of a length, and then you

go short too early because of the pace. England have got a fine bowlers that can hit the top of off-stump. If they hit the top of the off-stump with a little bit of movement and they challenge Australia to forward defence, they have a chance of getting 20 wickets. If they don't, it'll be a long old winter. Well, let's hope not. everybody forget India first of all that's going to be a wonderful series here isn't it yeah I mean India are pretty much dominating aren't they they've just come off the

champions trophy I mean things did lean in their favor but they are going to be pretty tasty at home look I'm looking forward to this one I think their batting has been consistent look at Virac Koli the KL Rahals I think they're gonna go quite well here the question is if the likes of Bumra and those guys are fit we're gonna have a real battle on our hands but I look forward to that you know I think that when you look at series England and Australia is what you look forward to at home. And I like to see what England have actually done, bringing through new fresh blood Gus Atkinson, Brideon cars. Can they test in home conditions? Can they get the

ball moving as well, which is important as well as that pace? So I think it's going to be a real test here this summer. And it's a chance for England to really settle in. This whole basball, I agree. I think it's been one of the most fantastic times ever. I think I remember at Headingley as well when Ben Stokes was going for that 180 and most people thought it was done. And Adam Mountford to remember. I was one of the few that said England could win here the night before and they went on and did it. And I was like, yeah. But just a little one. But I do enjoy this format. I think when we talk some of the big concepts here about driving for the modern game, Bazball has got plenty of people interested. People get into a car and a taxi driver is a little bit into sport, but not necessarily cricket, knows about this modern era and knows about it and is drawn in by some of the drama. So if we can now convert that and like you say, play with a bit more nuance, at the right time, I think this could be a really good moment for Test Cricket for English cricket.

Well, thanks for listening to this special TEMS podcast on the MCC Spirit of Cricket Cadbury Lecture at Lords. Remember to subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds and look out for our latest county and IPL podcast too. 10 is out now, only available on BBC Sounds. Join myself, Garelinica, Alan Shearer, Micah Richards, and my dog. As we dig into the top 10 of the Champions League. We go through our favorite goal scorer's, best moment, and even our all-time 11th.

Now that, gentlemen, is a list. No, what did he didn't get on the list? He didn't get on the reserve list. You can listen right now on BBC Sounds.