Test Match Special - The cricketers who stood up to Mugabe

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

Alison Mitchell speaks to Former Zimbabwe bowler Henry Olonga and former England captain Nasser Hussain about the black armband protest which caused Olonga and team-mate Andy Flower to flee Zimbabwe.Hussain & Olonga speak for the first time since 2003 when the England captain met with Olonga to understand to situation in Zimbabwe. Plus, Jonathan Agnew recalls covering the story as the BBC's Cricket Correspondent.

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souvenirs with pesos in Puerto Vallata or sending euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and Cs apply. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Alison Mitchell and welcome to the TMS podcast. We are bringing together two people who, back in 2003,

were involved in a story that created headlines around the world. At the World Cup that year, Henry O'Longer joined together with Andy Flowers, Zimbabwe teammate at the time, in wearing black armbands in protest against the policies

of Robert Mugabe's government in Zimbabwe. At the same time, NASA, the England captain, was wrestling with a decision as to whether his team should travel to play Zimbabwe in the tournament. And in the end, England decided not to play, a decision which ultimately allowed you, Henry, to escape into exile. So NASA, welcome.

Wonderful to have you with us from the Sky Commentary Box. Is this the first time you and Henry have met since 2003? I think so, yes. I mean, thanks for having me first here. And Henry just walked through the door. And we were trying to work out, was it the Cullinan Hotel in a dark room somewhere

where we were sitting and discussing Zimbabwe politics was myself, Duncan Fletcher, him and Andy Flour. And I think it was. I've obviously seen him around from a distance and heard him and seen some of the things that he's written and said and had written about him since that day. And I followed his story closely for obvious reasons.

reasons. Very good that you two have been able to come together, Henry. Thanks, Sally. Yeah. So I think it was the Cullinan Hotel the last time we bumped into each other. I've done a little bit, a touch of commentary here and there, and I've seen you as well. And I've always felt that you downplayed some part of the story, but I obviously wasn't in the change rooms when you guys made decisions or had your team talks. But I've always had a positive memory of what happened in that period of time and I give you guys a lot of credit even though I know you play it down. Well, we'll explain quite how the whole story unfolded, but Henry, just to tell us why that England team decision not to play Zimbabwe ultimately led to your escape and why

escape for you was so important. Well, in the end, it was a costly decision for England because it cost them a point which put three teams on equal points. I think Pakistan, England and Zimbabwe were on whatever points they were and we needed a superior net run. rate to get through to South Africa and play the Super Sixers, was a Super Sixers, a Sixers, Super Eights, whatever it was. And we got a draw against Pakistan because it rained. That meant because we had a superior net run rate to the two, because I think we'd played the Netherlands and absolutely smashed them

that we got through. And had England come to Zimbabwe, every confidence they would have won. No, Henry's been very kind. As he was saying that, I was thinking, Henry's presuming that our England side would have got to Zimbabwe with the side that Zimbabwe had back then and won. And Sky actually at a lunch interval of showing the we murdered him game. And in those days I can tell you that was far from a guarantee, the side Zimbabwe had.

And that's how the story has been Ted, said really, is that we sacrificed our World Cup. Well, we didn't. There was no guarantee of those points, but obviously once we didn't go, then those points. disappeared completely. Well, let's go back to 2003 then and then ultimately why that escape for you was so important, Henry, because the tournament was jointly hosted

between South Africa and Zimbabwe and in Zimbabwe of course taking place against the backdrop of violence and human rights abuses. Mugabe's henchmen were forcing white farmers off their land as part of this fast-track land reform scheme. And the wearing of the black armbands and the power

of a statement that you and Andy Flower put out, and it really changed both of your lives forever. So take a back into how, first of all, the idea of the protest came about. Well, the first thing is, it was almost unlikely I would have played in the World Cup at all. I'd had a torrid couple of seasons. I was in and out of the side. I'd had injuries.

But Pakistan were touring and playing a couple of test matches. They played the first test in Harare. They killed Zimbabwe. And I'd played in a couple of B teams and was on the fringes and they thought, well, we need a bit of pace. So they fell back on their sort of medium experience. is bowler myself. I'd played a few tests by this stage at 29, I think. And they risked picking me to play against Pakistan in Bulaway, which I did, and I picked up a number of wickets. I think three wickets in the test. And they thought, oh, he's finding a bit of form. So they put me in a

squad to play against Kenya. And I took six wickets against Kenya for 28 runs or something in one day. And I remember the man in charge at the time, Ozzie Fute, coming to me and saying, you've just bowled your way into the World Cup. So it's almost possible that the black armband would never have worked if they didn't pick me for the pakistan test in which i fought my way back into the squad and then um after we got together for um i think it was a christmas camp andy flower came to me and said i want to talk to you about something and uh my my my conscience was i was really i was really pricked by this because i thought why would andy want to talk to me we famously hadn't gotten along for a couple of seasons in the side it wasn't unpleasant

we just weren't mates if you get there's always tensions that form in cricket teams they're similar to bands stuff happens on tour and anyway we'd had a beef of sorts and we weren't really friendly so i was i was a little shocked if you will that he wanted to talk to me personally one-on-one so off we went and we met at a restaurant we i can't remember the name of the places but we had a coffee in a sort of shopping center was correct it was somewhere in herrari it was quite an upmarket place middle sort of medium middle class area and and we sat and had a coffee and he said i've been approached by a man called nigel huff who thinks that what's happening in zimbabwe needs to be spoken about on a public level, on a public platform, and we need to do something during the

World Cup that's coming up. I think by this stage, like I said, I was in the squad, and he initially proposed the idea because a man Nigel Huff had come to him and said, I think Nigel was a friend of Andy's, and had lost his farm. I hope I've got those details right. And he took Andy to the farm one day and said, look what they've done, because there was terrible carnage in the country. People losing farms. Some people lost their lives. It was terrible time in the country's history. And anyway, long story short, he said, Nigel proposed the idea of doing a boycott where we get the whole team to just say we're not going to play. Anyway, it was a number of weeks of back and forth, back and forth. And as the World Cup drew closer, we realized that wasn't going

to work. And it morphed into something else, which was the black armband protest. So that's kind of the foundation. And the idea of the black armband protest in the statement in particular came about through David Coulthart, the human rights lawyer at the time. So David, the first, in the In the first instance, I met David because I was a kind of star witness in a case he was taking as a lawyer. I mean, he's been many things in his life. He's been a senator, and of course, now he's the mayor of Bulawayo. But back in the day, he was a lawyer, a human rights lawyer, for a firm called Webb, Lowen Barry. And they were prosecuting a man for something, and I had seen something, so I was a witness. The case never went anywhere, but what happened was I developed a friendship with David.

He was a big cricket fan, and he used to come to the games, and he was a familiar face, and I'd see him. Over the years, I went and had dinner with him at his home, met his wife and family, and we became friendly. And then prior to the World Cup, when it started to take shape the idea of doing something, David was invited in to give us legal advice because, of course, he knew the law. And that's how we consulted with him and how we got to write the statement. He was very important in writing the statement in a legally sound way. And also advising on just what impact, you know, this could have for the two of you, like how high the stakes would be. Yeah, I think in one sense, we didn't really consult him on that. We actually met with some people who were involved in, I don't know how to put it, but like secret service stuff in Zimbabwe.

We met some people who had been involved in security. And they'd all told us, you're crazy. What you guys are about to do is ridiculous. Don't even think about it. Here are the consequences. You could lose your lives. You could go into exile. You could go into jail.

Blah, blah, blah. up. But I was 27, I was gung-ho, and I felt strongly about what was going on, and we plowed on. NASA, while this is happening, you're with your England team. When did you first sort of, did you get any wind that this was happening before it happened? Not so much what Andy and Henry were going to do. For me, the story was starting to snowball. I was in Australia and I think it was Channel 4. We're doing a documentary on it. And I started, my ears started to prick up about what was going on in Zimbabwe, there was a World Cup coming up that we'd have to travel to. I spoke to people I lean on like Michael Atherton. I remember being on the outfield at Brisbane and he said just be

informed about it so when it comes this is going to snowball when it comes be informed we've been through a similar thing recently with the Afghan women's story you can't politics and sport occasionally do mix often do mix and you've got to make a decision especially if you're England captain you got to make a decision you are an ambassador for your country it's two easy just to go, we're here just to play cricket, politics and sport. You know, Robert McGarby, who was patron, I think, of the Zimbabwe Cricket Union. He could be there. He'd want to be there, shaking hands with everyone. I'd read and seen some of the heinous things that was going on in that country. We were then starting to debate it in this Cullin Hotel. We were getting no

help, really, from the ECB, even less help from the ICC. People just couldn't understand. I remember meeting Morley at breakfast and he was like why are you debating going to Zimbabwe everyone's going to Zimbabwe and it's like slightly different for England for obvious reasons and then we heard that Henry and Andy wanted to meet us because they'd heard what we made made and we went into this dark room when you say us who's that exactly myself and Duncan and obviously there's a connection there as well with Duncan been ex-Zimbabwe Zimbabwe's in our coach and we sat and we met and like I've just done last five minutes, I just sat and listened to these two men. And importantly, a black Zimbabwean and a white Zimbabwean, because when you come from another country,

you don't always know the full story. Who are we to judge other countries and how they go about their lives and their businesses? Just worry about what goes on in your own team, your own country, etc. But when I heard Henry and Andy speak so passionately about what was happening and what they were going to do. That in a minute, ten minutes, just clarified my mind that I as England captain would not be leading aside to Zimbabwe. I remember walking out that room with Duncan and Duncan turned to me and went, there goes two very brave men. So I'd always respected and liked Henry and Andy. They played fiercely and competitively as Zimbabwe did then. But there's a huge admiration after that day from what they were about to do.

And it sort of, it made it, it made it crystal clear for me. But as England captain, you have players that have waited four years for a World Cup that didn't want sport and politics to mix. We had a young lad in Jimmy Anderson who had recently been playing Burnley second team, Lancashire second team. And I'm trying to tell him about the politics in Zimbabwe and Robert Mugabe and what's going on. And Jimmy's looking at me as if to say that this is not what I signed up for. You know, so, and then obviously it got even more complicated because the last minute we got a death threat from the sons and daughters of Zimbabwe.

And we tried to use, I'll be perfectly honest. I tried to use that as a way of not going to Zimbabwe, but also a way of making sure that we didn't lose the points or whatever. and in the end, to be honest, we fudged it a bit, we didn't go. I wish I'd sort of, I walked out that room and saying, should we be doing that? Should we be going to Zimbabwe lining up in Harare or wherever with black armbands on and doing what these two brave men? I think that was just a step too far for me and our team,

to go into someone else's country and make a protest. Agers, as the BBC correspondent covering all of this at the time, I mean, at this point, you were with the England team and it was very much to focus on that story. You know, whatever Henry and Andy were planning at this stage, nobody else knew. What are your memories of... Oh, well, I remember, it started brewing in Australia, didn't it? As you said, I mean, you could feel this. It was odd because we'd been a couple of years before, 2000, 2001, we went there, didn't we play some one day?

It went the year after it. So it's just kind of the focus that a World Cup brings, isn't it? So you could feel this. You could feel it brewing. We did the opening game in Newlands as well. why we were in Cape Town. So it was, I think, West Indies, South Africa, wasn't it?

I think it was the first game. So we did that. And that was the day before the protest. So we already knew that there was clearly an issue about England going. And I think the things to stress are that really you can only get away with it, as it were, if you talk about a boycott, on two fronts. And that is if your government tells you you're not going, which is what happens with India in Pakistan these days,

or on safety and security. And this was the point. knew, you knew that most of the team felt very strongly about this. Morally. Morally, very, of course. And the government went very close. Tony Blair did stand up. And I don't know what his exact words, well I do at the time,

but he strongly suggested that England shouldn't be touring Zimbabwe. And this was the thing. You know, once it's not, you're not going. Even more weights on your shoulder. Yeah, and the ICC were just, unless there is a security reason, or the reason Aggers gives, where your government, saying there is no leeway unless there is an absolute security and they were just not having any of it i mean that game should never have been scheduled there you know it was bonkers it

was always going to be a problem it was always going to be a problem so you've got to throw it back to the administrators and that the ECB or TCB were the ECB had signed up they signed the contract they knew if if they you know they they were in massive trouble if they if the game was boycotted for any reason that that would rebound on them they were contracted to play the game unless there were safety and security grounds and so on. And of course, when these fellows did what they did, this piled it up even more. I mean, it was a bizarre few days,

and I felt really sorry for the England players, because they are, they're only youngsters, really. You know, we can look back at it now. How old are you than NASA? Have you touched 30 by then? I aged a bit that week. But you are all talking about Jimmy's, and he's all about 20-year-old men,

who are not men in the world, really. And all this stuff and all this expectation, the administrators, be it the government or the ICC, they're the ones for me that really should have carried the can. And we were being briefed every day. We're there for three days. Peter Baxter, our producer, just sent me a photograph of me sitting on that lawn outside the Kallenden,

which was like the White House with all the cameras and everything pointing out there waiting for press conferences. And the PCA gave a sort of a press conference every night. And he just felt it was a, it was probably only going to go one way largely because of what these two had done. And it would have been difficult, I think, given the pressure that NASA felt. I always felt that letter was a lot.

hoax I don't like you yeah I think I think Duncan felt that when I spoke to Duncan about it he was a little bit don't worry about that but you know when you're when you're a captain of a team oh you can sort of um and R about whether you should have a fine leg or not or an extra slip or not a death threat is not something you sort of go well that may be okay yeah and you see the reaction of the players as well once that came then it crystallised some of the thoughts your family yeah why wasn't that enough for the ICC I mean everyone must be looking for a way out of this yeah

Why didn't the United States say, well, there you go. I don't know. Maybe because it looked like a hoax. It felt like a hoax. I mean, the other thing which we don't talk about, and I spoke about it with the Afghan women's story, is that you do have to be careful. We travel to various parts of the world

that do see things differently and do things differently and see the world differently. Who do you call out and who do you not call out? Some parts of the world, it's still illegal. Homosexuality is still illegal. Are we not going there? or you've just got to be very careful if you travel the world and be righteous. But what I heard from these two individuals,

it, that was just, it had gone over the line that you just could not go there. So in that moment then, you know what is being planned in terms of this protest. You've got to keep that a secret. Henry, I know that Andy told his family, told his dad bills, he heavily involved in cricket in Zimbabwe, his wife was very worried. Grant wanted in, I remember Andy telling me, and this was back, I did an interview with you and Andy, 10 years after the protest in 2013. That was the first time that Andy had ever done an interview and talked publicly. You'd done lots of public speaking about it. So Andy told Grant, Grant wanted in and he said,

no, you know, you stay out of it. You've got a long career ahead of you and it's powerful being, one white cricketer, one black cricketer. Who did you confide in? Well, I told my dad, but I didn't get his approval, so to speak. I got his unintentional. approval. I said to my dad, I said, I had a conversation. I said, you know, what's going on in this country needs to be challenged? Dad, don't you think? He said, yeah, yeah, of course, son, of course. I said, it's terrible, yeah, the way the government does these things and those things and blah, blah, blah. And he said, yes, yes, yes, yes. But what, of course, I didn't tell him, I was about to do a protest against the government. And it was only really him and I had a fiancé at the time.

I told her, she wasn't best pleased. She was somewhat related to Mugabe, so that complicated our relationship somewhat. And then my flatmates, I lived with a couple of guys. I'm still buddies with them. They live here in England now. And I let them know. But that was it. And there was a major secrecy around the whole thing. We didn't want anyone in the team to know because they could mention it to someone on staff or the management. And so there was a cloak of secrecy about it. And then you needed a way of getting the statements out there. Once you had sat with David Courtaughts and drafted that statements, which we'll hear in a moment, you needed a way of getting it out to the media.

And that's when Andy reached out to an English journalist. That's right. So I was in the early days of email, and we'd emailed back and forth between ourselves and David Coltart, and finally we got a draft of the email, typed out in a notepad or something back in the day. And I had a laser printer at home, and that was a big deal back in Zimbabwe

in the early 2000s. And it could print like 50 copies in two minutes or something. And I think we printed 100 copies. And so I gave that to Anne. Andy on our final net session prior to the match. And he then passed it on. And I don't know too much of the rest of that story, I think you've got insight into this.

So from, yeah, Andy then describing this and in that interview that he gave in 2013, so he saw Jeffrey Dean at the net session prior to the game, said, Jeffrey, can you do me a favor? Can you be out the back of the pavilion at half past nine, which was when the toss would take place, which was crucial, so that at that point,

the team couldn't be changed. Can you be outside the pavilion, at half-past nine, there you will meet someone you know. So it's very important, can you be there and can you be there at that time? And Jeffrey says, yes, okay, and he had a relationship with Andy as well as yourself. So Julie, matchday comes, half-past nine comes, he arrives at the pavilion, sees Bill Flower, Andy's dad, who hands him this wodge of statements and says, can you take this to the press box and distribute it?

And that was what happened at the toss. So let's hear the actual statement, because back in 2013, it was 10 years on, I asked you to read the statement out loud for the purposes of the five live documentary we're doing at the moment. I asked Andy to read those words out loud as well. And I asked him about those words and if they still felt familiar to him. They are familiar words. I have a copy framed in my house. And just occasionally, if I've come across it, I have read through the entire statement again.

I love the way it was written. and I think the meaning in some of those sentences is very sad because it's a remind of what was happening in that country at the time and some of the people that went through agony or lost their lives during that time and those memories are sad it is a great honour for us to take the field today to play for Zimbabwe in the World Cup.

We feel privileged and proud to have been able to represent our country. We are, however, deeply distressed about what is taking place in Zimbabwe in the midst of the World Cup and do not feel that we can take the field without indicating our feelings in a dignified manner

and in keeping with the spirit of cricket. We cannot in good conscience take to the field and ignore the fact that millions of our compatriots are starving, unemployed and oppressed. We are aware that hundreds of thousands of Zimbabweans may even die in the coming months through a combination of starvation, poverty and AIDS.

We are aware that many people have been unjustly imprisoned and tortured simply for expressing their opinions about what is happening in the country. We have heard a torrent of racist hate speech directed at minority groups. We are aware that thousands of Zimbabweans are routinely denied their right to freedom of expression. We are aware that people have been murdered, raped, beaten and had their homes destroyed because of their beliefs and that many of those responsible have not been prosecuted. We are also aware that many patriotic Zimbabweans

oppose us even playing in the World Cup because of what is happening. It is impossible to ignore what is happening in Zimbabwe although we are just professional cricketers, we do have a conscience and feelings. We believe that if we remain silent, that will be taken as a sign that either we do not care or we condone what is happening in Zimbabwe.

We believe that it is a moment. important to stand up for what is right. We have struggled to think of an action that would be appropriate and that would not demean the game we love so much. We have decided that we should act alone without other members of the team being involved because our decision is deeply personal and we did not want to use our senior status to unfairly influence more junior members of the squad. We would like to stress that we greatly respect the ICC and are grateful for all the hard work it is done in bringing the World Cup to Zimbabwe. In all the circumstances, we have decided that we will each wear a black arm band for the duration of the World Cup. In doing so, we are mourning

the death of democracy in our beloved Zimbabwe. In doing so, we are making a silent plea to those responsible to stop the abuse of human rights in Zimbabwe. In doing so, we pray that our small action may help to restore sanity and dignity to our nation. Really powerful words. I feel quite emotional listening to that. Henry, is it emotional? Oh, absolutely. I think I find myself getting more emotional as I get older. I think it probably took me 20 years to start to appreciate the impact it had of my life and the loss and the ifs, the buts, the maybes. But, yeah, I find myself a bit more teary nowadays as I approach my 50th birthday, which will be in a kind of couple of years. But yes, very deeply emotional. I think you gave him a nicer mic than mine,

I have to say. But I think that was in the long room, wasn't it? It was at large. It had even more significance. So the statements had gone out to the media. You had, how did you let the team know that morning? Because actually, crucially, something quite important was forgotten on the morning of the actual match, wasn't it? Yes, the little, I suppose, the little detail of a black arm band and how you get one. So I think we scurried around and got some insulation tape, some black insulation tape. We both cut some strips and put them on.

I put mine on my left arm band. My left arm, I think Andy did the same. But as far as the team was concerned, once the toss happened, I think Jeff Marshall was our coach at the time, and we got everyone's attention. And back in the day, we had these big coffins. We call them coffins.

I don't know if NASA's team had them, but there were these big boxes. We did. With all your bats and pads and everything in them. There's one in the middle, and we put maybe two or so copies of the statement on there. And Andy spoke. He said to everyone, hey, Henry and I have done something. Please read it when you can. And, you know, one by one, they all took an opportunity to have a quick quiz.

But of course, we had a match to play. We were batting first, and so very quickly, attention was turned to the match, and I can't even remember what happened. I think we won it. But it all became a blur for me for the rest of the day. First of all, there was the euphoria of knowing that we'd done this extraordinary thing. In fact, I'd said to you earlier that what got me through it the night before because I was just sweating and so nervous

was watching Gladiator, the movie with Russell Crow. And the imagery of this big, powerful leader, the emperor and this sort of minnow in the arena, somehow getting the crowd behind him. I watched that scene over and over again and eventually got us through. But once that was announced, we were hauled in front of the CEO. He wasn't pleased.

He told us to retract the statement. We said we can't do it. We had a back and forth for a few minutes. Then he said, okay, we'll talk to you later. And then after that, it was all hell broke loose against us. Locally, we started being, our characters were crucified in the papers. We were called British paid spies. And I famously joke that there's never been a black James Bond.

But it was very unpleasant very quickly. And then death threats came my way. And in the space of a couple of weeks, my career was over in Zimbabwe. I played a maybe a couple more matches. One in Blumfontein in South Africa before my career was over. And then I had to go into X-Farl. I'm condensing a long story, of course, but that's it in a nutshell. Has there ever been a minute where you regretted it?

Ever? Ever second-doubted yourself? The only thing that gives me pause for thought is that I could have had a better batting average if I played a few more matches for Sun Warbway. But no, no, it was something I would do again in a heartbeat. Of course, I was younger. As I said earlier, I was gung-ho. I'm a much more reflective as I age and as I get older and I've got kids now. And as I look at the country, and I need to pray see this.

This country, Zimbabwe is beautiful. I think we'll all agree. If you've ever been to Zimbabwe, it is one of the most delightful places. You'll be entertained well. The people are lovely. What we're talking about here is bad governance and corruption at the highest level, that sort of thing. But the country itself, I would love to live there in a heartbeat, but I'm now settled in Zimbabwe, I've got kids, I've got a family, I lived here in England for 12 years,

I'm settled there, I've been there 10 years, and I love belonging to a country that can win a match a cricket, you know, so I'm Australian now, I call myself British Australian, but looking back, no regrets. But critically, it was that decision of England, NASA's decision with the team not to travel, that meant actually you had the World Cup match, as you mentioned before, in South Africa. So when you then left Zimbabwe to play that World Cup match, you never went to. back to Zimbabwe and you've never been back ever since. I haven't been back.

And there's a little bit of sadness for me, but it's often tempered by the kind of unpleasant experiences I've had since the black armband protest, bizarrely a lot of them from Zimbabweans all throughout the world. I've traveled to New Zealand. I've lived here, as I said, many times and many times. Zimbabweans, people who I thought I was representing have said the most reprehensible things about me and written about me. And so in a weird way, I've sort of closed that chapter of my life. I played for the country. I'm still proud of them when they perform and get out and make a fist of it,

and it's going to be tough for them here in this test match, but I'm kind of, there's a part of me rooting for them. I've still got my family, my dad's still in Zimbabwe. I've got a brother back there. And every time Zimbabwe performs on the international stage in any way, for example, or Kirsty Coventry just became the Olympic president or whatever she is. And so there's a part of me that's like, wow, that's so good. I'm so chuffed about that. But honestly, sadly, as well, I've sort of moved on. NASA, we said this is the first time you and Henry have really met since 2003.

Had you ever stopped to think or realize the impact that your decision had on Henry, the fact that it enabled him to escape because he was getting those death threats in Zimbabwe. I didn't realize that until you mentioned it two minutes ago, to be honest. I read a piece in the telegraph recently about what Henry's gone through since, and I had to reflect on that. And that's why I asked the question, has there ever been a time where, you know, you've doubted it and doubted yourself? And I think whatever he says about some Zimbabweans haven't taken kindly to him,

I'd say history reflects pretty well, to say the least, on him and Andy Flower. and no it's nice seeing him again it's nice to meet up in happier times those those weren't pleasant times they really weren't you know they were I think we forget what a tough tough bunch of cricketers Zimbabwe were back then they knew right from wrong you know they were smart they were streetwise they were tough they knew cricket in you know Duncan Fletcher Dave Howe and Andy Flower these are serious cricket brains but also streetwise and smart and i admired them i admired them immensely before that day and i admired those two for what they did that day and aggers do you remember the moment when you first were watching that game but we weren't in zimbabwe but now walking out with the armband on

absolutely i mean you just sat there and your jaw dropped because we had all the business going on i mean they were connected and you knew what impact that we'll be having on the england team who we were monitoring for those three days in this weird environment in the Cullin. But sport and politics, as NASA said at the start, it is an interesting thing. And there are obviously some occasions and some situations in which sport actually does play a real impact. I'm thinking of South Africa and the boycott of South Africa had a massive impact. Unfortunately, a sporting boycott of Zimbabwe, I don't think would have had any impact. I just don't think it would.

I don't think it would have stopped Mugabe or his henchmen or the corruption. and everything else. I don't, I just don't think a boy cop would have, would have changed things there as it, as it did with South Africa. And sport and politics do mix, but in kind of different ways. But that, that was so powerful. You know, it was massively powerful. But we went back the next year. This is what was kind of weird again. Have you run that tour? And I said, 2004, we went back to Zimbabwe. And the reason, the main reason, the main reason, reason I wanted to go and there was a lot of owing and owing about that and we were going to be deported actually because we were on a list but we managed to get in I wanted to go because

journalists were not allowed in Zimbabwe and the reason I wanted to go was two things I wanted to go and I wanted to see what was going on and I saw farms burning I saw smoke coming up and I was able to report for the first time on the BBC of what was going on and I also wanted to see the development program because that was one of big arguments that was put out about maintaining relations with Zimbabwe. We need to keep the game going in Zimbabwe. You need kids to play. And I said to Peter's New Go-Korn, I've got that.

I want to see his development program. I want to see evidence what you've done. And with no warning, he took me out to these schools. There were kids in no shoes, kids in rags, but they could play cricket. Someone had coached them. There was something going on. And so that made me feel a bit better about that side of it. But my main reason was I wanted to, you know, you could report for the first time.

I remember from our own correspondent at that Radio 4 program, talking about the burning farms. You could see it for the first time. And happily, Andy Flower has returned to Zimbabwe since. He felt at the time in 2013 it was really important for his children. They were curious about Zimbabwe. They wanted to understand more about their homeland. He was also back there for the 2023 World Cup qualifiers

and he saw with his own eyes and was really effusive about the enthusiasm for cricket in Zimbabwe then and the fact that some of those racial barriers had been broken down in more recent years or over the, you know, 10, 20 years since that happened. And just to recall that time when I asked the two of you to speak that statement out loud, I mean, you don't often get that much emotion from Andy Flower, but his eyes really were, I remember the time describing it as brimful with emotion. And his voice certainly began to crack as he reached the end of the statements.

And I asked him that same question. Now, so you asked Henry if he had any regrets. and I asked Andy whether he would do it again and again with his voice slightly breaking at the end he said given the same circumstances without a doubt yes so powerful from the two of you and thank you for sharing your memories of that and NASA thank you for being with us to share your side of the story because two parallel incidences absolutely linked had a huge impact thanks so great to have you thank you well thanks to NASA Henry and

and to aggers as well. And that is it for this episode of the Test Much Special podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so that you don't miss an episode from us during this very busy summer for both England's men and women. No Balls is back as well. Alex and Kate's latest episode is available right now on BBC Sounds. On BBC Sounds, this is sports, strangest crimes. From the man who tried to buy cricket.

One night, one game, one or take off. US million dollars. The kidnap of a super horse. It must have been terrifying. Of course it was. How we got through a lot. An ill-advised errands changing F-1 forever. It will haunt the people involved for as long as they live.

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