Test Match Special - The International Summer concludes

Episode Date: September 30, 2020

Insight and analysis from the Test Match Special team - including interviews with top players and special features.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to the Test Match special podcast. First of all, a confession. When the rain was falling at Derby,

with the fifth T20 International looking almost certain to be abandoned, we took the decision to record a close of series podcast. We discussed the 4-0 series win for England, the performances that have taken place, and exactly where the series left the world game. But rather than just get rid of that 35 minutes or so of conversation, we've decided we're going to record a few minutes on what was a most bizarre evening here at the county ground in Derby

because we did see a fifth match in this series not a T20 no five overs aside between England and the West Indies England won it in bizarre circumstances eventually two no balls getting them over the line to reach their target of 42 put seven wickets down a strange old evening a strange end to a very very strange summer but we did see a match to conclude the summer

so Isabel Westbury who was watching alongside me We never thought we'd see a game, but we did, and what a strange old evening it was. Well, I think you sums it up rather nicely there, a tumultuous end to a tumultuous summer. It was very reflective of this COVID-affected summer of cricket. We didn't think we'd get any cricket at all throughout the whole summer, throughout the whole series. You didn't think we'd get any cricket this evening, and we did. It also reflected the very, very odd game that cricket is. There was a cut-off time of 8.28 p.m.

The first ball was bowled at 8.27 p.m. I can't think of any other sport that can start in such peculiar fashion and then end in such peculiar fashion as well for a moment in there, where Cindy's they were having to defend, or sorry, they were trying to defend a total of 42 and looked for a large part of that five over innings as though they were going to, but it was down to the last over and, ah, well, a few extras to help things along, but England restoring bear order at least,

as they've won every single match this series. No player in the England side scored double figures. There was run out after run out. In total in the innings, there were three of them. And a couple, as we headed right towards the business end of things, they needed seven from the final over. It was looking like we were heading for the super over, and then Shakira Solman overstepped,

and then a beamer that saw a noble and the game was done. This summer was always going to end like that, wasn't it? I reckon that's going to be one of those pub quiz quiz. questions in years to come, the fact that England have won a match with all their batters scoring, no one's scoring more than single figures. And it's the first time in the history of the women's game, we've seen a five over T20 International, so history was made. More history as well, Deandra Dotten, who has been the standout batter of this series.

She topped the run scoring table. She's been impressive to watch throughout. She became the first woman in T20 International History to score a century of sixes. beautiful there we go history in the making history was made it was a bizarre conclusion to think the rain is falling so so heavily here in derby the staff who have been working so hard to make the outfield fit to play and the square fit to play well they've all departed there's not going to be any cricket here for any time soon so there's no need to protect anything and it's an odd sight really the floodlights have just been turned off and and as we head away with

the international summer done we've seen it conclude with this extraordinary 5 over a side match. Izzy, thank you for everything over the last few weeks and over the next half an hour or so you can enjoy our reflections on the women's international summer and the domestic cricket as well

with me, Isabel and also Alex Hartley. Stay tuned. Well, we never knew whether this summer for England's women would get started. Tours that were announced and then cancelled but eventually a five-match T20 series between England and the West Indies played in the bio bubble of Derby managed to take place

plenty of cricket at the back end of September for England's women to get stuck into and for us to dissect over the next half an hour or so. And with me to do just that are the England World Cup winner Alex Hartley and the former Middlesex captain, Isabel Westbury. Alex, I think first of all, we look at this summer and how it's gone, how it's played out both in men's and women's cricket, but particularly for England's women with those tours against India and South Africa that were cancelled quite late in the day.

We didn't know whether any cricket was going to happen. That we've seen anything has been a real bonus. It really has, and I felt so sorry for the England girls because those tours against India and South Africa got postponed, got cancelled, and then the World Cup got postponed. So they've kind of been in this biosecure bubble all summer with no cricket in the pipeline. So it must have been so, so hard for the England girls.

But luckily, the West Indies came over, and we've had some international cricket. his sound like two or three days of utter darkness. I think that the men's is going on. You felt as a cricket was back and then suddenly everything fell away from beneath the feet of the England woman. But my goodness, aren't we glad to be here?

Absolutely. And it's that thing of uncertainty, isn't it? That's what would have made it so difficult because you're preparing for a series. You don't know whether it's going to happen. And how do you possibly prepare? When you don't know the bowlers and the batters that you're going to be up against. And that's credit to England for the professionalism, Alex,

of getting the job done when they did get on the field, but also keeping the mentality of professionalism up when you don't know if you're going to be playing. Yeah, it must have been really hard. We saw that they had some intra-squad games. They played 50 over cricket and T20 cricket, so kind of covered all basis. But yeah, you could tell when the England girls went out there,

they were a little bit rusty, but luckily for England, West Indies were even rusty. We should, Izzy, give real credit again to West Indies for what they've done, not just for women's cricket, but for cricket in general this summer. The men's team came over at the start of the year, the women's team have come over at the back end of this summer I mean what enormous sacrifices have had to be made

well I think yeah it's important to kind of give some context I guess to this this drubbing of the West Indies by England is that they were certainly a last minute call up it happened in the space of a you know a week I think that the West Indies were confirmed and we have to remember as well the West Indies isn't a nation it's a group of disparate islands which all also had different lockdown laws as well

so they're different you know people had different access to training they couldn't get the whole squad together Women may have to come over and obviously ice glacial and a sort of bubble in Derby, certainly very different weather conditions in autumn in England. But yeah, for the women, they obviously it was a huge effort to get that organised. And for the men, they were coming from roughly sort of COVID-free zone into the height of a pandemic in the United Kingdom. And I think that there's a lot of gratitude towards the West Indies. A lot of words have been spoken. and I think now the question is how that we put into practice

because cricket globally and especially those smaller boards are going to have quite a financial hit in the years or so to come. Yeah, the words of, you know, England owe these countries that have come over. We'll have to wait and see how things play out in terms of future tours. Let's look at this series then, the T20s that have been played, Alex. They've pretty much been identical every single game. England have batted first. They've put on too many runs to the West Indies

who have fallen short on every occasion. the first two matches by 47 runs and then by 20 odd and then by I think it was 44 in the third game so it's all been pretty much the same formula and it's been a little bit sort of repetitive it has especially those first two games with a 47 run victory

I don't know how often that happens I can't imagine it be too often and the win before I think they had in the T20 World Cup was a 46 run win so it's this wonderful string of very very I don't know I don't know about victories but yeah the West Indies have been better than they were last year. We saw them come over last year and they got absolutely

dominated by England. The scorecards suggest that's been the case this year, but the West Indies have shown glimpses of where they've improved and what they can do. It's just been one of those frustrating series because we talk about on air, we know what they can do and we know what Haley Matthews and Stefani Taylor can do, but Dotting's been the only person that's really gone out there and done anything. Well, that's also a big difference from last year because Dotton, of course, was injured last year. So you almost felt so West Indies arrived sort of thinking that nothing was going to happen, whereas this, whenever Dotten was at the crease, there was a chance. So there was that element of suspense that was retained throughout all the matches, even though, as you say,

the school cards look reasonably one-sided. We'll go through the individual performances in a moment, but you'd expect England to win this series pretty comfortably, wouldn't you? Yeah, and England would expect England to win this series pretty comfortably. You know, England are probably second in the world at the minute, ranked, and West Indies maybe six or seventh. You know, they haven't really got that domestic structure or those constant international fixtures that England have. And that's going to just inevitably is they lead to one side being dominant over the other, particularly in these conditions and this time of year and one thing and another. Yeah, and especially in an age where those tours are going to be

fewer and far between and more uncertainty. I mean, we've already heard that England are likely to be touring New Zealand and possibly play a try series against New Zealand and Australia, but for the West Indies, apart from those women that we're playing in the Big Bash League, for example, that's it. They haven't got anything on the horizon. How important was it that England's women did play this summer, Alex, first of all? Hugely important. I think it just shows where the ECB really, what they really think about women's cricket,

if they've got the men on this summer and then decided just to rack off the England women's series, I think you would have had a lot of annoyed players. So it's really shown the players that the ECB are behind them. And the ECB have come out and said there's going to be no pay cuts or anything for the women. So it just shows that the support is there for them. But, yeah, it just took a while for it to happen. Yeah, I think the thing that it sort of demonstrates the most is that countries like England, countries like Australia are bending over backwards to try and bring towards equality

the way in which they treat the women and the men. I mean, there's still many aspects which you could question about it. But in terms of the summer in the biosecure bubbles, it's been brilliant by the ECB. But I think the next big question is, well, it's all very well in England and Australia, and we're very lucky to be watching cricket in England. But that gap between those two nations and the rest of the world is starting to widen. Because not every board will all offer the same to the women as they are the men in other nations.

That's what Claire Connor said, the director of women's cricket at the ECB. She has concerns about the women's game globally because of the boards that are going to take such financial hits in the next few weeks. months and years because of the COVID pandemic, how are they going to be able to fund the women's game and ensure that it continues to grow? And I should say that a huge credit to the ECB as well, because when these tours were getting cancelled and they knew that there was the potential that maybe the women's side wouldn't play any matches, they were so worried because of how it would look. And they knew they were doing everything they could to make sure

that they did play. And it was nothing about the England side of it stopping it happening. It was because of the other boards unable to, either because of politics or whatever, to get the sides over here. And you know what, Henry, about the first time ever in my journalism career, I felt sorry for the ECB. I really did because they had, as you said, they'd done everything right. And it just almost felt so unfair that you'd have this visual contrast between a whole roster of men's cricket. They fulfilled every single international national match they were supposed to play. And the prospect of absolutely nothing for the woman, which, you know, I could see headlines forming. So yes, I think very pleased for

the ECB and just to reflect as well what they've put into the women's game. Right. Let's have a look at the top performers across the series then we'll go through the the england that batters and boulders first of all i think the first thing to say that stands out for me alex is you've got four players from the england batting unit that have scored over a hundred runs so heather knight tammy beaumont amy jones natalie sivernernernernernerner that's really encouraging it really is and and that is their top order set now for the next couple of years especially in t20 cricket you know we're going to have beaumont Wyatt, Amy Jones, Nat Siver, Heather Nye, and I just think it's so promising.

And then later on in the order, we've got the big hitters, Sarah Glenn, Sophie Eccleston. Anya Shrubsal's been batting 11. She can hit a big ball. So it's really, really promising. And the good thing for me watching on is the team's still really young. That's the thing, isn't it? All of those names, there's plenty of cricket left in those players. It's not like 10 years ago where it would be Charlotte Edwards who would be scoring all the run.

Oh, absolutely not. And then that's almost, you know, you could argue. that West Indies are kind of where England were 10 years ago when they were relying on two or three big names. I think there's only one person beyond 30 in this team. She might be reasonably far beyond 30 and Catherine Brunt at the age of 35, but otherwise everybody's in their 20s

and quite a few youngsters at that. And to go back to the four batters that are sort of up there and scored more than 100 runs, in every single match so far for England, they've had a different top highest run scorer, which I think is remarkable, really. And it just shows when other people fail, then someone else steps up and takes the challenge on.

Well, Amy Jones talked about this quite eloquently after her innings in the fourth T20 where she scored the highest score. And she was talking about how, yes, everybody wants to take responsibility, but it's such a reassuring thought, knowing that you can go in and play with a bit more freedom, that somebody else is going to also be there to support you, both in terms of the rate, sort of the hitting power, but also, you know, just anchor innings. Whereas I think this is almost why you could argue that Deandra Dawson's innings for West Indies, she's the top high. run scorer by a country mile why hers have been all the more remarkable because she didn't have that reassurance she knew that when she was out that was probably it we kind of saw that in the fourth t20 she was out for five in the what third fourth ball of the match and you kind of already knew what was going to happen so yes england have this kind of wonderful mental cushion as well as as an almost batting talent danny white is one possible concern opening the batting scores a total of

42 runs across the first four matches that's a little bit of a worry isn't it is she hasn't had a score above 20 in 12 innings and we've spoken about Matthews how she should move down the order and and you know really try and build innings there isn't room for danny wyatt to do that in this england team but i always feel danny wyatt is one innings away from a big total and a match winning total and that's the difference yeah and i think it's probably fair to say isn't it that danny white has never been picked for england based on her consistency it's it's based on what we know that she can deliver and at times has delivered spectacularly um and i almost feel and i don't know there's anything to this sometimes to tell me bone wants come out and each time there's really

timed the ball from the off quite well she loves that backward point cut for example and i wonder whether why it almost feels as though she should be up there at the same timing and rate straight away and almost is trying too hard to compete when actually you just think just close your eyes go um yeah she's she's almost comparing herself to the other end okay so that's the batting unit what about the bowlers leading the way for england sarah glenn who's continuing to build this reputation alex spin bowler yeah and to say that she has only played for england a handful of times she doesn't look out of her depth whatsoever she's coming to this side you know she's competing with the world's best t20 spinner and then they've got anna shrubsall

Catherine Brunt at the top of the order they have a genuine world-class bowling attack. It seems that way doesn't it? If you look at Eccleston, Glenn, Brunt, Shrubsoe. And the most exciting thing for England is that they seem to be producing a new sort of superstar every year.

I mean, I think probably Eccleston, you could argue her breakout year was last year when she was brilliant against the West Indies. She was brilliant in the T20 World Cup. She's made it to the top of the ICCT20 rankings. And then as soon as she's done that and established herself, you have a mini-me

coming through in the form of Sarah Glenn, and it is remarkable. And I think we talked about the age as well. I mean, this is a team that could be there for the next decade. What a luxury. As well as that. Maddie Villiers, you look at, Nat Siver is continuing to build her reputation as this

economical metronome as part of the England T-20 attack. Any concerns, but while you've got Catherine Brunt and your Shrub-Salt in the side, and inevitably you're going to because of what they've done and what they can do. But maybe the seam bowling reserves aren't quite

getting tested. Yeah, and Catherine and Anya are going to have to retire at some stage. You know, Catherine is 35 years old and Anja equally has had a long career. So they're both going to retire at what you would think is at a similar time. And on the

bench you have Kate Cross and Freya Davis who you would think are going to take their place who have 13 T20 caps between them. So if for whatever reason if for whatever reason Catherine and Anya don't make the World Cup then your very established

bowling attack becomes a very young ball in attack. It would be really interesting to see what England do when they go over to New Zealand and to Australia because Anya Shopsel has not

had a great series. I think she's one of just two bowlers to have had 100 runs conceded against just the one wicket as well. She was really, you know, she's known for her real hooping

in swing. She was struggling really to control it and I wonder whether that will instigate a change immediately for England going into going over to the other side of the world in February, March, or whether by that point is, what, four or five months away,

so everything might have changed once more. Who knows where we'll be? It's an interesting debate, isn't it? One that was had with the England men's team with Anderson and Broad at the end of the summer. One journalist wrote that, what are you doing, wasting your time with two bowlers you know can take wickets in these conditions when you're not trying new bowlers for following them up in the future when they retire,

and you could make the same argument about Brunton Shropsock, couldn't you? I think it's this sort of eternal problem for any coach, isn't it? you think about winning here and now, and sometimes there's a good reason for that, or is there a concerted plan? I mean, you could, you know, the way in which England men, for example, built towards their 2019 World Cup win, they had a concerted plan and maybe they would have dropped someone like, what they did. They would drop her down and abroad from their whiteball squads in order to build that team going into the next four years. So I guess it depends really what England's plans are. Has that postponement of the World Cup early next year perhaps put a spanner in the

works of those plans because there would have been a thought as to, well, maybe that would be Brunt and Shrubesol at the back end of what they do at the front line for England, but now there's an extra year. Does that maybe cause a problem? Well, it's one of those I think it's more, it's a kind of thing that we like to talk about is would Brunt have retired. And from what I understand, Brunt just wants to keep on going as long as she's jolly well can. It doesn't matter if it's a World Cup next year or not. And the way she's bowling at the moment, I mean, all credit to her, go for it. Yeah, I think there's always an idea in every cricketer's career that you want to go off in a Steve War-style sort of sentry test at your

home ground in Sydney kind of thing. But equally, the kind of player that Brunt is that Shropsoll is, that they are professionals, they want to play as much cricket as possible. I don't think realistically it is that much difference. Alex, you know them both well, Brunt and Shrub-Sol. Do we read too much into these things? Do you think they'll just want to keep playing as long as they can and have no plans and sort of time scare? I think while they're both still world-class bowlers, there's no reason for them to think about anything else. You know, Now, Catherine is getting better and better. She's not taking the wickets that she used to,

but her economy has been outstanding in this series, and then the wickets come at the other end. So cricket is all about bowling in partnerships, and if Catherine's going at two or three in an international T20 match, the wickets are going to fall at the other end. So that's where the partnerships are key. And you think from my perspective, you would have thought Catherine would have retired by now,

but my mind's completely changed, and I think, carry on, because she's been brilliant. and she loves to bat as well. I mean, she's got a terrific strike rate as well. I mean, she's almost her own worst critic when she goes into bat. You can see her sort of brating herself under her helmet when she doesn't time one through the middle for four. So she's just enjoying her cricket.

And I think, you know, she had that T20 World Cup a couple of years ago where she was out with her back injury. And that was devastating. I think she really, really missed it as well. She missed being in the team. She missed playing. And, you know, Catherine Brunt is of the generation where she never would have thought she would have become a professional cricketer.

So she's going to milk it for all. worth and so would I if I were Catherine Brunt absolutely what about the West Indies then batting wise one clear standout performer as you've mentioned is he did you adder dotting it's it's a worry isn't it that when you've got one player that is just so far ahead of anyone else in a side it is and we saw in the first two T20s we had opening the batting dotting matthews in at three Taylor and then you knew once you got two wickets the game was completely over so the West Indies reviewed that they split those top three up and the game isn't completely over when you get a couple of wickets, but equally, you now know that

the pressure is on dotting to get that big score if they're in with any chance. Because Stefani Taylor is so good at T20 cricket, but on the international stage, she just doesn't perform like she does in franchise cricket. And I can't put my finger on what it is, but something, her mindset or something needs to change when representing the West Indies. Yeah, I almost feel that with Stefani Taylor, she is very aware of having that pressure on her shoulders, the way in which she walks to the crease, the way she walks to her press conference after a defeat, she is a world-weary kind of thing, whereas Dotten, my goodness, she's just an all-round athlete with that confidence.

I mean, in my mind, she's a mishmash of some of the best West Indian cricketers of yesterday. I mean, you think about the struct with which Saviv Richards used to walk to the crease, Deandra Dotten's got it. You think about the elegance, the free-flown cricket that Brian Lara used to play, DeAnda Dian Dottleton's got that as well. And then you think about the pressure on one person's shoulders, almost lifting an entire team. It's a bit like Chivnareen Chondapal in the 90s and 2000 era

when the rest of the West Indies men's batting was falling beside her. Deandre Dolly is a composite of all these different characters and it's exciting for us to watch and it's a wonderful thing but it's a real problem for the West Indies. And what has been good this year, she's back bowling as well. Oh, yeah. And she looks slightly slower than she has in previous years, which is bound to happen.

You know, she's not bowled for a few years. She's had that shoulder injury. She's probably lost, I don't know, I want to say, probably six or seven miles per hour but she's still bowling very, very well. The key is that belief is created in the middle order of this West Indy's batting line up, isn't it?

There'll be moments when Dotten's batting you think this could be on, she gets out and it's very much off. And you know what? I almost as I'm saying this, I feel as I'm a bit crazy, but I feel as though it's getting better. I feel as though they're working it out. I think they realise that they can't just

put their sort of, you know, their biggest assets right at the top and then knowing that everything's going to fall away underneath. We are starting to see Haley Matthews, I thought, looked actually pretty comfortable at the crease coming in at number four. I think before she came in.

She made 20 or, I think, in that 30, 20, which the first time she was out of that top order. So she's somebody who I think will enjoy that middle order. And then, you know, there are others that can hit a long ball that have been batting in and around. It's about that, well, it's consistency, isn't it? it is getting better

it's hard to put a finger on it the stats don't really read particularly beautifully but I feel as though the kind of despair that there was last year in the whitewash it's gone

and we have to remember the West Indies have a few players at home so King's still at home their best wicket takers still at home so they are building this team we've seen Campbell get 35 off 25 balls in the last game

so they are definitely definitely getting better It's now, I just feel they're just a few years behind where the top teams are. But if they go back and work on that, they are a destructive side and have the potential to be one of the world's best. What have we learned this series, is he? I think Heather Knight has kind of, I think she's reached the stage where she's molded her own team. She's been captain for a few years now, first of all under Coach Robinson, Mark Robinson,

And I think he was probably the dominant figure in the leadership set up there, having first had Charlotte Edwards and then sort of taken things over a little bit. He led them and with Knight as well to the World Cup win in 2017. But since that, since the change of coach, having Lisa Kiley, you feel as though because Knight was sort of, she would already been there, she knew what was happening. She's now a bit more in charge. And you feel as though the team, I mean, they've always respected her, but they trust her. said, but they trust her, they want to play to her style. She's definitely the kind of disappointed

mother figure rather than I'm going to shout the house down. And she's also, she herself is so reliable in all aspects of the game. I mean, she's a sort of a comfortably consistent middle order batter. You know, she's a kind of player that walks the crease and you feel comforted by it. You think, oh, everything's going to be all right now that the night's there. And the bowling as well. I mean, she hasn't, I mean, she criminally sort of underuses herself, but she's somebody, that they can turn to when the pressure is on. And then her figure of fielding magnificence in the extra cover is now just one of those

sort of givens in the game of world cricket. This is Heaven Knight's team. And I think we're seeing that now in its glory. From the outside looking in, Alex, and I know you are still very close with a lot of the team. You're still in and around that setup. You'll have a bit of a sense of how the team is. Would you agree with what is he says?

yeah 100% I feel like now they've got this new coach it feels like a new team you know this coach gives Heather a bit more freedom so therefore she can mold the team and and yes Lisa is in charge but Lisa's very much a coach where it's Heather's team yeah and we're the support staff and yes we'll pick the team together and but you can just sort of sense that they're all enjoying it now they all want to be there and it's a very exciting future Is there a comparison to be made between, say, Owen Morgan and Trevor Bayliss, therefore? Oh, interesting. I've never really thought about that. Sort of just let them get on with it. The laissez-faire approach to cricketing, cricket coaching. I think it probably is, yeah. And they were equally as successful. Well, it would be interesting to see how it progresses.

And certainly going into a major tournament, not in February, March of 2021, but now of 2022. There's plenty of time now for that relationship and that identity to continue to be built. Yeah, they have. They've got so much time because they've got next year's cricket has all been cancelled. We don't know what's coming up next summer for England. We know they've got the tour to New Zealand, but they've just got time to build this team. And, you know, with their three spinners all being 21, they've just got so much time. But the way you're looking, Alex, tells me that you're really optimistic about it. And you sense that there is possibly just the sort of hints of something quite special.

It really is. It's one of those teams where you go, well, actually, how is anyone else going to break into this team? How is another spinner going to knock Sophie Eccles and Sarah Glenn and Maddie Villas out of this team? Because I genuinely don't think they can. It's amazing really, because I think one of the wonderful things of the Rachel Hayo Flint Trophy was we saw some domestic players really excel in a way that they haven't had the opportunity to. on a stage they haven't had an opportunity to in previous years because you'd have even the key of super league you had your three england internationals you had your three overseas internationals um and someone like georgia adams looked sublime a million dollars and then somebody asked the question you know from a pragmatic perspective well when are you going to get a pit for england

you're well actually probably not any time soon to be honest because they had 24 already in the in the derby bubble before they whittled it down to their squad of 15 and they are settled i think you know George Adams couldn't have done much more this summer to be battering that door down. But realistically, I don't see her making a way into the team anytime soon. Well, let's have a little look at the Rachel Hayhoe Flint competition on domestic women's cricket this summer. Because again, that was a massive question mark as to whether we'd see anything. And we can hear from the head of women's cricket at the ECB, Claire Conner, who's been speaking to Rob Bonnet on the Today program.

Well, we didn't know when we'd next be leaving our homes at one stage, did we, of loan, wondering when we'd see cricket pitches and sports pitches full again. So, yeah, that was a real threat. And, you know, we had to have very flexible plans. I think, you know, we did a lot of planning and we took some decisions quite late, but we're absolutely delighted that we've been able to put on the first year of our new regional domestic competition. It was great to see those players having that opportunity at Edgebaston.

Yes, well, you'll be delighted with this too, no doubt. A nice quote from Vipers coach Charlotte Edwards, another former England candidate. after her sides win at Hempaston. Today isn't about us, she said. Today is about domestic women's cricket in this country. It's thriving. From your perspective at headquarters, what's the actual evidence of that?

Well, the evidence is that we monitor growth, so we monitor how many women and girls are playing and how many club sections have developed. We've seen women's and girls club cricket grow by over a third, in terms of the number of sections, since we won the World Cup in 2017. And we're seeing more and more.

the grassroots is important, isn't it, Claire? Yeah, absolutely. It's where you instill hopefully a lifelong love of the game. You know, you get boys and girls picking up cricket bats from a young age and you hopefully give them good experiences in the game and they stay with you, whether as a player, a fan

or whatever, a ticket buyer. And so, yeah, you know, it's we've got a lot more girls coming through the pathway from a young age and we've got a lot more talent. And this new structure that we've launched this year is really about deepening that talent pool

and providing those players with a pathway professional opportunities in a domestic game for women for the first time and ultimately to underpin the England team's success as well. Well, the thoughts there of Claire Connor speaking to Rob Bonnet on Radio 4's today program and

a lot of credit again has to go to the ECB for getting this competition on and for the fact that we did see a high standard of domestic women's cricket culminating in that final at Edgeworthon. Yeah, it was a brilliant competition to be a part of it. It was kind of a summer where, personally, I didn't think we were going to play cricket at all. I'm not sure the ECB thought we were going to play cricket

at all. And for them to get that competition on, it's just been fantastic. And the standard of cricket has been so good. And I've been really, really impressed. Is he dare we say it, but three or four years ago, there were envious glances south of the equator towards Australia about the setup that was providing this production line of top quality international players. Is it a England's starting to resemble that with tournaments, like the Kier Super League, like the Rachel Hayho Flint Trophy, that are just starting to create a higher standard at the level below England? Yeah, and like the 100, actually.

I mean, obviously, you haven't had the opportunity to see it this year. And, okay, you can argue that the 100 format is a certainly different to T20. But these are tournaments. The 100, I think, is important because it's like the WBBL and BBL in that they are two men's and women's team for each club, but they're put on the same platform. They're marketed in the same way. they're given the same facilities. They're kind of one big happy family.

And that's what the 100 does. And I think that's really important because it does raise the standards. It does make you feel like a real professional player that you're in there with the best of the best, whether it would be a man or a woman. So I think that's important. I think the key of Super League has been a much needed bridge. I think England are behind Australia because Australia, Australia have had this set up for longer. But they're catching up and they're catching up fast.

And I think the next five years, as Alex was saying earlier, is certainly exciting. Alex, take me back five years. If you're playing for a team, the level below England, if you are not an England player, but you are perhaps one run below, as I say, what's the standard like compared to what it's like now? Has it changed hugely? Yeah, the only standard we had below England

was county cricket, and there was that many counties. All the best players were diluted into all of these leagues and all of these, like, you know, division one, division two. I think we had like six divisions at one stage. And it was just ridiculous, you weren't playing the best standard of cricket that you could and then there was such a massive jump from county cricket to England, a lot of the girls get there or get selected

for the England Academy and they're so far out of their depth because they haven't been exposed to high standard of cricket. You'd agree with that, Izzy, you've played that level as well. Yeah, I mean, I've got anything in the Academy and pretty much had to leave about a year later because I was so far out of my depth. So I think I'm a living, breathing picture of that, Absolutely. And I think it was also at a time when England woman, you know, in the last decade, had become professional. So there was that monetary thing as well.

I remember, I think it was the winter they became professional and playing county game against Surrey, where Nat Siver had had the benefit of a winter being a professional woman's cricketer. And we kind of scrabbled together, you know, a couple of sort of early morning sessions up in a dark, damp cricket school on a Sunday morning. And coming into the first match of the season, and you're just thinking, oh, my goodness me, I just don't want to be here. because she was hitting it that well and you just didn't no matter how good you were in a way you just didn't have the same

sort of approach over the winter the support the training the sheer bat on ball time so yes the gap there was definitely a point I think it was the 2050 Nash's where it was really quite evident that the gap between the domestic completely amateur game

for the women in England and the England's professional internationals was absolutely huge and at that point you were thinking goodness, this could take, you know, years and years and years to get back. But the ECB have, to their credit, they have looked a lot down under. I think that's, they won't step away from saying that. And they have moved pretty quickly.

So I think that there's definitely a mood change, I feel, among the top sort of echelons of the ECB hierarchy in the decision makers that not only do they want to invest in women's cricket because it's the right thing to do and because also, you know, it's one of the areas of the game that's growing. So in 10, 20 years time, it's going to be financial. anti-viable, but also because cricket now needs women's cricket, you know, in order to attract sponsors, in order to market in a world which gender quality is, you know, we're talking about it a lot more, thank goodness. The men's cricket almost needs women's cricket

just as much as the other way around. Alex, Claire Connor said to the BBC a few days ago, the worry is that other boards around the world this is won't be able to invest the same level of finance, focus and commitment that the England and Wales cricket board and one or two others are more easily able to do because of the situation and the financial pressures that have been caused by the global pandemic. And while on one hand it's really good that England are catching up, there is another argument to say it's a little bit worrying

if England and Australia just pull away from the other countries, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And you have to look at this summer and the ECB chartering a flight for the West Indies to come over. That costs a lot of money. And I'm just worried that if these COVID times last another year, Are we going to see the likes of Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, the West Indies? Are they going to pay for other people to go to their country to play women's cricket?

It costs them enough money to have women's cricket on as it is. And it is worrying. And obviously, as a player, my worry is that England, Australia, India, to a certain extent, are just going to become the top three. And the game can't afford that. The joy of cricket is the fact you've got a vast diversity of different countries that can beat each other. It's crucial. Yeah, it is. And I want to sort of stand here and come with the magic bullet and tell you what the answer is. But we can't. I think ICC has got a lot

of decisions to make. I mean, they need to think about, they've obviously got a very steep, short-term financial pitfall. But then I think, Alex, you're right, in order for the women's game to grow and to be financially viable and profitable in the future, they need to invest in it as well at the same time. I think the ECB are probably torn as well because on the one hand, they are invested in their country and they're doing a very good job of it

at the moment and seeing their game grow. But equally, it doesn't do any, it doesn't help England cricket if they're putting on, you know, they're playing matches that are completely one-sided all of the time. Yeah, you also see, you think that our team's going to blame COVID

for not supporting their women. Are they then going to say, well, we can't afford it because of COVID when we know full, well they're just not supporting their women as they should absolutely this is the danger and i think it's something that um journalists i guess boards administrators just have to be constantly vocal about going forward because yes the danger is that women's cricket becomes a casualty of COVID and covid uses the excuse we can't afford that the game can't afford that because such strides have been

made in the last five years that to lose that momentum now will be awful and it's not just about the sort of Goodwillly momentum. I mean, women's cricket is a growing game across the world. This is financially a wonderful opportunity in the long term. It's just about trying to balance that short-term investment and knowing that you'll have the long-term game. And the question is, how long will it all last? Which brings me to the next and final point, which is how are England, West Indies, Australia, all of these countries that face the uncertainty and without the World Cup to look forward to, how are they going to approach the next 12 months. We know that England, in theory, we'll be heading to New Zealand to perhaps play

a tri-series between England, New Zealand and Australia in the new year, maybe February March time. Beyond that, we know nothing. Yeah, I think it will be down a lot to individuals as well and how they go about. I mean, England, obviously, they're very professional. So those of them that are staying in England over the winter will probably have a training program and be very focused on that. Nat Siverr and Catherine Brunt have signed to go to the Melbourne Stars and the WBBL, we understand that a fair few other members of the England team are also intending to go over to WBL. I think it does depend a lot on each country.

I mean, Australia have a pretty packed couple of months now with that WBL, then I guess, yes, they're playing at the moment against New Zealand in a T20 Nodi series. WBL, then England come out. Oh, my God. There's a chair given way. Is he? Yo-Cal? Must have eaten all that cake.

Sorry. First and foremost, are you okay? I'm fine, if it's startled. How's the chair? Oh, dear. Alex, well, Izzy just repairs the furniture. You'd agree with that. It's about trying to work out exactly how boards can go forward and work out what they're going to do.

It is. He just, I'm so distracted. I'm worried about you sitting back on. I'm not getting to sit down anymore. You just don't want, you know, women's cricket being left behind because there's going to be so much cricket that is on and so many competitions and the men, England men, Australian men, New Zealand, all these countries, they're going to be playing men's cricket.

Are the women going to go with? That was it. Australia obviously has a packed season ahead. You feel as though England are going to look after their players as well either way. The West Indies, they haven't got anything. So you've got a handful of the West Indies players that are going to jet off to WBL as soon as this series finishes.

And then everybody else is just, what is there to look forward to? I mean, I know that they are trying to restructure the domestic game, but they have that inequality in one team. It must be horrid. And I think, yeah, they're going to have to do a lot of work in the West Indies

to try and get that domestic game going. Isabel, thank you to you and the poor chair that is now in, More pieces than it was when we started this podcast. Go and eat some letters. Alex, Alex, thank you for your time as well. It's been an enormous amount of fun, and I'm so glad that we have been able to see

both England's women playing and some domestic women's cricket as well this summer. We weren't sure we were going to get it, but we have, and it's been a lot of fun. All the updates in terms of potential fixtures and all the news around the women's game will be on the BBC Sport website. Thank you for joining us.

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