Test Match Special - The “Leg over” 30 years on.

Episode Date: September 5, 2021

In 1991 Jonathan Agnew and Brian Johnston produced a piece of radio that has been replayed millions of times. Simon Mann is joined at the Oval by Aggers, Brian’s son Barry Johnston, former TMS Producer Peter Baxter and impressionist Rory Bremner.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. From Five Live Sports, This is the TMS podcast.

There have been a few notable anniversaries we've marked in this match, 50 years since India's historic win. First India test here since Alistair Cook's Farewell 100. Today we're going to mark another anniversary of a very different kind. 30 years ago. Can you remember it? 30 years ago? The first Gulf War, the dissolution of the Soviet Union,

the end of apartheid. 30 years ago here at the Oval, one of the most famous pieces of broadcasting took place. It wasn't commentary on a dramatic wicket or a moment of cricket history. Instead, it took place during the review of the second day's play in the fifth test between England and West Indies with Jonathan Agnew and Brian Johnston. Both of the end out, most extraordinary way.

He knew, this is the tragic thing about it, he knew exactly what was going to happen. He tried to step over the stumps and just flicked a bail with his right now. He tried to do the splits over it, and unfortunately the inner part of his side, to just remove the bail. He just didn't quite go his leg over. Anyhow, he did very well indeed, batting 131 minutes and hit three-fours,

and then we had Lewis playing extremely well before his 47 knot out. Agus do stop it. And he was joined by De Freitas, who was in for 40 minutes, a useful little partnership there. They put on 35 in 40 minutes, and then he was caught by Nujan-Forch.

Lawrence, always entertaining. Batty for 35. 35 minutes. Hit a four over the week. He was... Hang us, for goodness sake, thom it. Yeah, it's Lauren's... Loirene's flight.

It seemed to me well. He hit a four over the week he was head. And he was out. for now and Tuffle King batted for 12 minutes Nemez called by Haynes

on Parson for two and there were 54 extras and England were all out for 419 I've stopped laughing now never fails to make you it's the wheezing laughter I think it gets to me

what we're going to try and do during this lunch break is sort of bringing you the inside story of the Lego we've got Agus here 30 years on from what was his first summer

as BBC cricket correspondent. Sadly, Brian, passed away in 1994, but we're delighted to welcome his son Barry to the box. We also have on the line, Peter Baxter, who was the Test Match Special producer at the time and not quite so enamored

with the Legover at the time. We'll find out we'll get Peter's take on that in just a moment. And as we mentioned, we wanted to, we want to hear from you as well. Here's an email from Keith Nicholas. He says, I was lucky enough to hear the Legover live. I was driving back from a business meeting, and I stopped at the memory motorway

service station to grab a cup of tea. I got back to my car to hear Jonas and Agas start their review of the England innings. I laughed so much. I couldn't remember how to start the car. He says, the man in the next car was also listening because he had tears streaming down his face. I mean, it's an incredible moment. I mean, let's set the scene first, Jonathan.

You started as correspondent that summer. It was also the other thing as well. I mean, it was a fantastic test match. And it was the first time England had sort of stopped the West Indies, beating them at home. since 1969. It's a great game of cricket,

second day. But you were actually, you weren't a commentator then, were you? No, I was just a summariser because I hadn't really done any commentary before. So Peter very wisely decided

that my first summer I should just be an expert summariser, which was in the lofty company of Fred Truman, Trevor Bailey. I think Brian spent most of that summer working out who I was because he had these brilliant,

you know, cricketing great signal. And then I popped up. I was only 31 and I don't think quite entirely got to grips with that but I just spent the time I was sitting next to him and for learning the ropes I suppose how you'd put it

and you know how did you get on with him brilliantly from the very first moment I mean we shared well like Barry you spent on that but I think you know Brian and I shared the same very silly sense of humour the same love of innuendo humour

and we just clicked really I mean we're really did get on very well. And he never ever said this is what you do, I go, or try this or anything else. But just being able to sit beside him and work with him, it meant that it did rub off, a lot of it rubbed off. And I think there are moments now where I think of what Brian might have done in those situations, you know, and I think we more or less would have done the same

sort of a thing. I always felt that if I hadn't worked with Brian and I had three summers with him, I know what broadcaster I would want to be, but I wouldn't have had the confidence to have done it. And that's what Brian gave me to just broadcast in that sort of a way. Now Barry, when Brian left the box that day he was a bit, he was a bit worried

wasn't he? Well he was yes, I mean he thought his career was over as Peter will tell you I think I mean he was absolutely distraught I mean he was then about 78 or so so he was very old I think yeah he was nearly 80 he was old for a commentator

and every year he would say to the BBC Sport look do you want me to carry on another year and they'd say, no, yes, just as long as you want to. And he thought, well, they'll think, I've lost it now, I'm senile. And it was only the next morning when he came in, and there were all these messages and phone calls and people saying it was the funniest thing they'd ever heard. He thought, well, maybe it's not so bad after all. Did you speak to him that evening? No, I didn't, no. I was down in Brighton, but I heard it when it was happening, and I was in my flat in Brighton, and I heard Aga's saying, couldn't quite get his leg over.

And it was when, it was the catch in the voice when Brown said, I came back in the room because I knew he was going to go I mean he had this thing he would see the funny side and something and then the giggles would come and he just couldn't stop for those you're listening

you don't remember him give us an idea of how big a star he was well he was he'd been around for nearly 50 years I mean he started doing the cricket commentary on television in 1946 if you can believe it with two matches against India

and he did 24 years on TV so he was the voice of cricket on television when there really wasn't anyone else doing that. And then he came up to retirement in 1972 when he was 60, and he got sacked by television. And thankfully he was picked up by radio, and he did another 24 years on TMS. So people who loved cricket had been listening to him for all their lives.

But he also did so many other programs. The big one was Down Your Way, which was almost bigger than Test Match Special. And we would walk down the street, and people would just recognize him and call out. You know, no cricket today, a Brown and all that. And we would travel on the tube, and my mother would say to him, don't talk. Because, you know, if he was standing there, people might not recognize it.

But as soon as he started talking, the whole carriage would turn around and go, it's Brian Johnston. That voice, it was, you know, royal occasions and, you know, Princess Downer's wedding and everything. He'd done them all. It's amazing, isn't it, to be recognised by your voice rather than your face. Now, Jonathan, you've got to be honest here, haven't you? because the leg over, which you actually delivered on air, it wasn't actually your line. It was, it was, go on.

We've got John Estridge. My friend sitting next to me. John Escher was in the sun here as well. See, what happened was, I mean, the build-up to that game was all about Ian Botham. Because as you mentioned, if England won that game, they would level the series. And that was unheard of against the West Indies at that time. So it was a big occasion. And Ian Botham was brought back into the side.

And I can't remember why he hadn't been in it, but he hadn't been in for a couple of years. No, he hadn't, no. I always assumed it was one of those suspensions, but I'm not sure. But anyway, the fact is that the build-up, with beefy coming back, included all the sort of the newsy aspect of Ian's life,

which is why I think Brian sort of locked onto the leg over a bit, because there was all the broken beds in Barbados stuff and all that thing. It was all over the news. And so that, I think, was part of that. So there was huge interest in excitement, obviously, in Ian playing again. and in fact he made rather a scratchy 30 odd and it wasn't much for innings really

and so the commentary box of course in those days was the far end of the ground right at the top there and it was joined up with part of the stand that was there and that was where we could get a cup of tea so I went down there and well here he is John Etheridge cricket correspondent of the sun who's been around about as long as I have well it's John's job to come up with lines like that isn't it

yeah I seem to remember that I sort of whispered conspiratorily to Aga's I know what our line will be tomorrow it'll be both and couldn't quite get his leg over which I don't actually think we ever use in fact so I'm happy to pass it on

but I suppose it in itself is not especially hilarious is it but the fact that it was both whom was as you rightly say was coming towards the end of his career but it was still an absolute superstar of the sporting landscape at the time and with all the background

with stuff in Barbados and so on and clearly it just tickled something with Brian Johnson and I guess once you corpse once he gets the giggles it's difficult to stop so from the moment John said that to the moment

I'd laugh I was I was thinking a cup of tea I thought oh yeah yeah yeah I think what you actually said was Ian both of them cocks it up by not getting his leg oh yeah that was your actual line probably an extra little bit of a and I laughed it was funny it was silly so I finished my tea and said thanks John I went back upstairs

and of course when I got there and by now bad light had stopped play so there was no cricket going on I walked in the commentary box and It had been my first year And actually as far as the summer was concerned It had actually been quite a good summer So what I had never done

Although I'd obviously sat beside Brown and the others All the way through that summer I had never done what I was about to do Which was to sit down beside Brian Johnston And Phil When it was raining or whatever Everyone knows what that means And actually it was quite something

Because I remember listening to that sort of thing When I was a boy at home And with dad listening to the radio and just listening to them talking. But I hadn't had it, I hadn't done it all summer. It's my fifth test and it hadn't happened. So Peter Baxter, there were some big old chairs up there in those days, like leather backs and so on.

And he pulled back this huge chair, it was like a throne, really, and sort of gestured that I should sit down, you know, next to the great man and in the gloom and do our review of the day, which is why Brian was just so obsessed with getting through this scorecard because that was what we were supposed to be doing. It's supposed to be a proper review of the day. and he just kept soldiering on. So when you went on, did you have this in your mind that you would say?

Or just one of those moments he just kept? Absolutely not. But because it was Brian, he did keep pushing. And he had a thing. That was a sort of a shortish version of what actually happened. Because up to that point, there had been at least two mentions, not three of inner thighs and a sort of a wink. You know, he was just what he did.

And he was trying to make me laugh, really. And when you heard it, John, were you listening live or did you hear it later or came out later? Yeah, I didn't hear it live at the time, but I know, really not until the next day, because I aware fully of the response to it, and I know, Agers, I think, was initially concerned. Well, we'll talk about that in just a moment. So when you heard that line, did you think, he's Nick my line there? Well, I've nicked many of people's lines in that time. I owe you because I got paid 50 quid for doing a Lego, so I owe you 15% of that.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind being on royalties. It's not very much. Now, okay, so lots of people enjoy it. Lots of people were listening live and heard it later, and we'll come to that in a moment. But one man who was not impressed, he really wasn't, and I've talked to Peter about this over the years. Peter Baxter, who was the producer of Test Match Special at the time.

And if you listen closely to that insert of Jonathan and Brian talking, I think in the background you can hear it. I'll tell you when it was. I'll hear of Peter in a second, but it was when I tried to talk and so Lawrence and then I collapsed it was because Peter had come stomping up from the back and hissed, will somebody say something?

And if you listen very carefully, you can hear it which is why I tried to say something and actually it made it worse. Go on, Peter. Yeah, good afternoon to you. Yes, it's extraordinary. When I first heard the line come out from Agass I knew instantly we had possibility of trouble

and as Barry said it was that little hiccup that Brian gave that made you think oh God was stuffed here and he carried on amazingly and he always said afterwards for 30 seconds he was more professional

than at any other time in his career unfortunately it was only for 30 seconds during which time I was determined first that no one should catch his eye because I know I remember interviewing him on his 70th birthday and every time we caught each other's eye we just crumbled and eventually on the seventh take

by studying the wall we managed to get through it and not looking at each other at all. He was hopeless. So the big thing was to make people lean back in their chairs. Tony Cozier was on one side of aggers I think writing his report for the day. So I made him lean back in his chair and he had a sort of an amused smile on his face.

Bill Frundel was so busy, I don't think he'd heard it, but I made him lean back. And then I thought, you know, we might just get away with this. And then, Brian obviously, reviewed it in his mind and went totally. Fendell snort in, I think, is what did it. Well, I still don't think he quite heard it, because I think the snort would have been rather greater had he fully heard what happened.

He was just aware that something was going on. There was a giggle starting. So why were you so unhappy, Peter? I mean, I know you want the programme to go sort of fluently and that sort of thing. I mean, a producer's job, and Adam will tell you this, the basic job before anything else is to keep that metre ticking. Something's got to be coming out of the loudspeaker. And when it isn't, you have failed, really.

That's what it is. And for rather too long a time, nothing was coming out, apart from a bit of wheezing. Which we couldn't hear, because, again, the point, with 20-odd thousand people in the ground, you actually couldn't hear the squeaking and the wheezing at all, could you? So, I mean, you did think it was absolute silence. I wasn't really aware of the squeaking and the wheezing

until it got played back again. And it was the squeaking and the wheezing. That was the funniest bit. Exactly, exactly. When he suddenly did that really high-pitched squeak, that's what he was. Because he was determined to keep going, and he just got higher and higher pitch.

And it was, oh, it's hopeless. Barry's mentioned that Brian thought his career was over. Yes. So what was the sort of atmosphere in the box after that instant and as you went home that evening? I mean, did you go home? Were you stomping home, Peter, and kicking doors? Well, I was a bit, yes.

I mean, I'm probably a rather like him. And I think, to be fair, Agas might not admit it. But I think even he thought, oh, God, I wonder if I took the old boy a bit too far. Well, I did, but I saw you both storm off. What's my first year of the job? Yes. You've got to remember, you know, it's 30 years ago,

and there was things you couldn't say on the radio then that you might get away with now. And I think that has to be born in mind as well. And, of course, the next morning when we came in, Radio 2, I think it was, I've been playing it every hour on the hour. Well, someone else who's been playing it as well, Peter, was Gary Richardson, because some people didn't hear it live, but Gary Richardson played it on Radio 4's,

today program. Again, Gary takes up the story. Well, 30 years on, the leg over moment is still incredibly funny. It was one of the great moments on BBC radio. What I find fascinating is that no matter how many times you hear the clip, you always laugh. It's a bit like the famous scene in Dad's Army. You know the punchline is, don't tell him Pike, but you always laugh. I was listening actually live to the TMS broadcast when it happened. And I thought to my myself, this is fantastic. It's so funny. I was presenting on the Today program the next morning and I thought to myself, I must replay it. I know the listeners will love it. And of course, in those days, there was no social media. The clip hadn't been played millions of times on Twitter.

So when I rebroadcast it the next morning, it was very fresh to our listeners. It was like it was being broadcast for the very first time. The reaction I got from people was incredible. They absolutely loved it. It was one of the great moments on BBC radio. And of course, in those days, Brian Johnson was so very popular on Radio 4 because he was one of my regular contributors doing the cricket reports. Legover moment, fantastic. So when Gary played it on the today program,

Peter, was that the moment when you sort of relaxed and thought, actually, this might not be so bad after all? I think I did actually probably I started to relax I do remember a little later someone suggested we should put it in for a Sony radio award and I said no ultimately I think it was a mistake I don't think we can start putting those in for awards really but yeah and by the time I got to the Oval the engineers

were already minting off copies of the thing onto cassettes and flogging into their friends I think and John you know in your did you pick up on it in you're on paper? Yeah, I'm sure we did. I mean, of course, now, with websites and online, it'll be all over the newspaper websites.

But of course, back then, we were just print copies. You couldn't play a clip, could you? But now, of course, it would go viral, as they say. Matthew Oates says, I was driving off the Blessed M-25 to the Equally Blessed M-4, both liberally and down with roadworks. Cars were slewing into the emergency lane. Their drivers collapsing and helpless laughter. Those not of our faith and disposition hadn't a clue what was going on and got

cross and that added to the chaos somehow no harm was done all things of the best in the best of all possible world so to Jonathan you also thought that you might have overstepped them up when when did you think when Brian walked out with Peter

and there was no radio 5 of those days and I was writing my report for the morning by myself in the commentary box and actually I felt a bit sick I actually felt sick when it was actually happening if I'm honest there's bits where you think oh this is funny but the reality is you're broadcasting

and you're both incapable of talking and I was very inexperienced and it was actually quite a frightening sort of a thing you know you've got Brian Johnston one of the great broadcasters of all time is in a heap and so it actually it didn't end well and we got off the air and they left

and I was sitting there thinking that was oh dear you know you have been a bit silly there perhaps but then the next morning and I was sitting in the commentary box to do Gary's piece for the today program and I assumed I was going to talk about the next day at the cricket. So I was there waiting for him when he played it. And he had John Humpherson, Cohen.

They're there all laughing. And then I came on and everyone was laughing. And I thought, listen, we're going to be all right. We're going to be okay here. So then the letters arrived. Then Brian arrived. And he was still a bit frosty. And I said, look, Brian, I promise you, I've just heard it.

You've got all these letters. I'm going to take you downstairs and just please come and listen to it, please. So he went down and the engineers are underneath us. Tim was there. I know one of who's been with us for a long time. And we opened the door, and they were literally franking off copies. They literally were. And I sat Brian down in there, and it was a funny little wooden walled room.

And we sat down, and I said, come on, and they played it. And he and I sat there and listened to it. And he had tears pouring down his cheeks. And from that moment on, he was completely sold on it. He loved it. The photographs up here is the Brian Johnston Broadcasting Centre here. The photographs that there are there's me, Johners, Bill, they were actually taken the next day

because there's no one there to take snaps and Patrick Eager took those. He came the next day, mocked the whole thing up and Brian engaged in the whole thing. It took it everywhere, didn't he? I mean, he played it, he just delighted him playing. Brian thinking now, if Brian could be with us and I wish he was, if he thought we were still talking about this 30 years on,

he'd be thrilled. He'd find it incredible. Yes, I mean, he started doing his one-man show an evening with Johnners and I made a cassette of it for him which used to take around with him and he used to play it at the end and that's I think when he really realised how people loved it because as soon as

he started playing it the theatre audiences would be weeping with laughter and so I mean he knew really that this was actually his legacy and sadly when he died all the news programmes of BBC television news radio news they all played that clip and I remember watching them

and I didn't know whether to laugh or cry but I thought what a wonderful way to be remembered. There's a big discussion about that. I remember, do we play that on the 6 o'clock news the day he died and it was so good that they did. There are people now that never heard his radio commentary, never heard him on down your way

but they'll have heard the giggle and they'll hear him laughing and think, well he must have been a good bloke. Yeah. Mike Sharman emails, he said I was being taken back to university by my father we were driving up the M6 and had to pull over onto the hard shoulder due to laughter and tears.

The amount of cars that had done likewise was incredible. There were more cars on the heart of shoulder and then the actual M6. A great moment to have shared, he says. Now, the Legover audio is actually the second most requested non-music clip on Desert Island discs. And among those to do so is the impressionist and comedian Rory Bremner who joined us. Good afternoon to you, Rory. You didn't actually hear it live, did you? But why were you so beguiled by it? well I wish I could say I was in the South Pole or a Greek island or even on the N6 but no I think I just it was it was through the Bush telegraph wasn't it I mean it suddenly went the equivalent of viral in those days and on the news reports but I mean I think it's been mentioned earlier it's there something about people reduced to helpless laughter who are trying to carry on and as you said you know John has always tried to be professional and that you just clocks it early on but I think what really it really does him is when he talks about for the wicker keepers you'd be practicing that wrong

but you can't it's the word h that's that it all comes out because you've just got all that that uncontrollable thing I mean it was it was just a beautiful delivery by Johners

I didn't realize it was John Etheridge's line but I mean that was like Shane warned to Mike Gatting it was absolutely it was a perfect delivery to Johners

it was absolutely in his sweet swath because I think it was you know John loved stuff I think he was the one who came up with the bowler

the bowler's holding the best ones will he and all that so he loved that and he tries doesn't he he tries for 20 or 30 seconds and then

it was helpless stuff if we ever lose the tape we just get Rory to introduce it I've got it on a loop yeah

how easy or otherwise was Brian to mimic oh well he was good because he was such a character that's why I mean I actually chose the clip for Descartes and Discs because you know

it reminded me of John and that character. I mean, he loved those. Barry talked about his one-man shows and he would say, and I did a show and somebody kept up partles and said, I didn't think much of that. I was a bit upset, so I said to the chairman and the chairman said, oh, don't listen to him, he just repeats whatever else is saying.

He was just the climate of fun. And as I think John Major said that when Brian died, he was the sound of summer, I think. So he was just something infectious about it. And I think to hear him, he loved

practical jokes. I remember Edgbaston, he had me do the view on the boundary, and I didn't know, he put Ritchie Benno right behind me, and he said, go on, do your Ritchie Benno. And of course, Richie was standing right behind me and said, what about the royalties? And Johners... Oh, oh, there you are.

It was the essence. There you are. You captured the absolute essence of Johners. And also, that thing about uncontrolled laughter, I think, there's one other, which is when Jim Nocti tried to introduce Jeremy Hunt. And that's the same thing about somebody trying to carry on. trying to carry on.

And you just cannot help laughing, and it's an absolute pick-me-up. Barry, did Brian ever say the bowl is holding the batsman's willie, live on air, on a radio commentary? I believe he didn't. No. I know. Sorry, Rory. I looked it up on Wikipedia.

It's in the Oxford Book of Quotations, but I was hired by the BBC to put together a thing called John is at the Bee, which was a big sort of audiobook. And so I had free access to the BBC Sound Archives, and I went through everything. And the only references I could find to him saying, The Bowler's Holding the Baxman of Willie, he always prefaced it with. And then there's the one I didn't realize I'd made, but a listener wrote in and said, do you realize what you said he is today? Yes, the World Service, welcome World Service for the news, the bowlers holding the Baxman's Willie. And, of course, everyone wanted to believe it.

And so, you know, he perpetuated it. But I have never found a tape. I'm sure Peter Baxter would have found a tape as well if there was one. Did he say the one about Glenn Turner when you sit in the box? You know, carry on one ball left. Yes, he did say that, I think, yes. Oh, there we are.

We are actually going to hear a bit more, Brian, in just a moment. John, you weren't, Peter, didn't allow you to work with Brian. It's nice to each other from ours, did he? Well, Brian was used as well, because he said, I can't, I'm not, it's impossible. If we try and work together and we catch you other as I, we're just going to collapse it after. So Brian refused to work with me for a year.

But people kept writing in saying, what's going on? They did wonderful leg over. Why can't they be together? So we managed to sell Peter the thought of doing your letters answered at Old Trafford. Tea break. What could possibly go wrong?

So Peter agreed. Brian agreed. And as long as we sat at different ends of the commentary box. So he sat over that end. I sat this end. We didn't look at each other. And we got all the way through. Now, the only thing that could possibly go wrong

with your letters answered is if you don't actually get to see the letters first. And for some reason, Peter was very secretive about these letters, and he'd open them at the back, and then would just, when your time came, he'd hand one over and put it in front of it, and you'd read them blind, which is why, well, you've got this one,

however, this is why this happened. Yeah, yeah, so you're coming together again didn't exactly go to plan either. No, no, it was a shambles. Yeah, so we're listening. Really quick, Ian, has the unpast come out? Yep. Can you please explain why in the game of cricket

an appeal's procedure is necessary or justifiable? This comes from... Bouch. It's not the Prime Minister William Pitt, but this is William H. Titt, and he said, can you... The umpires are coming out Here they come, John As you move over And I'll do some commentating

Trevor's come to join me With a cup of tea There was that wheeze again That was majesty He wrote to Mr Tick He wrote to Mr Tick A nice handwritten letter And said look

I apologize for having laughed at his name And he'd never got to reply back that is my favourite I have to say that is my favourite Peter's still with us how did you react to the second one Peter oh gosh

and there was another one that involved Jarvid me and that oh it did yes there was they actually were paralysed the extent that wasn't even wheezy it was just silent it was awful

anyway I rewarded aggers for the leg over incident by making him commentate on the Sri Lankans the next test which that was his first experience

of commentary in the days when we didn't really know their names as well as we know them now. Oh, that's a happy times. The umpires are coming out. Rory, just to wonder, why did you go for that for your desert island disc then? And was it your, was it your

favourite, the one you, you know, there's one you have to Oh, I can't remember. I think it's just because you can't listen to it without laughing. And whatever mood you're in, wherever you are, you listen to two humans laughing uncontrollably and trying not to. It's irresistible, that's why.

And was it the one record that you, you know, there's one that you can keep on? I'll say it was, but it may not have been anything. I might have chosen a bit of Carmen or something, but anyway, it's always there in the locker. Great. Thanks very much, Rory. Ian Tanner, one of the funniest things I've ever heard. I've been listening to TMS for decades. On that particular day, I was working on a scaffold, 30 feet in the air. And the radio that was ever present, was tuned to TMS as the leg over in his aftermath ensued.

I collapsed into helpless laughter to the dismay of bricklay. and carpenters present. They were more the Radio One types, he says. But God bless, dear O'Brien, one of my heroes. Keep up the good work, and long may you all continue to do so. Well, that's the point. It's just so lovely to hear Dad's voice again. Thanks very much.

And just to remember him. Remember that laughter. Yeah, thank very much to Jonathan and to Barry and to Peter Baxter and John Etheridge and Rory Bremner. This is the TMS podcast. Yo, I'm George the Poet, and this is the BBC Concert Orchestra. Have you heard George's podcast? Some might say it's political, full of immersive stories.

Some might just like the fire poetry. We go from thoughts in my head to the ends, to the things that have yet to be said. Black power, relationships, music, education, violence, influence, and deep conversations. Some have said it's hard to define. Find out what it's about. Jump into Have You Heard George's Podcast, Chapter 3. Listen on BBC Sounds.