Test Match Special - The Oval day 3: Denly guides England towards victory

Episode Date: September 14, 2019

Michael Vaughan, Glenn McGrath and Alec Stewart have their say on England batting themselves into a strong position to win the match and tie the series. We hear from Joe Denly on his amazing week; the birth of his daughter now followed by a new highest Test score of 96 which Michael Vaughan says will be enough to ensure he's on the winter tours to New Zealand and South Africa.Plus, Aggers chats to Kevin Roberts on leading Cricket Australia out of the ball tampering scandal, English crowds booing David Warner, and his upcoming visit to Pakistan with a view to touring the country in 2022.

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It's going to be caught, and England have won the ashes. Strauss. It's bold. Oh, bold by a beauty. Pitched in the rough and turned a mile. Both of them swings again, hits that. It's six runs. It's a six runs. That's his hundred. Goff runs away on a hat trick, and he bowls to him.

Darren Goff has taken a hat trick. No, is it? Is it the Ashes? Yes, England has won the Ashes. Welcome to the Oval, where at the close of the third day, England have battered themselves into a strong position to win this match and tie the series. They lead by 382 runs with Joe Denley, narrowly missing out on a maiden test centre. He was out for 94. A little bit later in the episode, I'll chat to Kevin Roberts on leading cricket Australia

out of the ball tampering scandal, English crowds booing David Warner, and his upcoming visit to Pakistan with a view to touring the country in 2022. But first, reaction to the day's play. Glenn McGrath and Alex Stewart will join Simon Mann shortly, but I'm going to start with the reaction of Michael Vaughn. The TMS podcast, at the Ashes. Well, Michael, I'll put my hand up. I wanted if England could get a battle all day today

on the evidence of what we've seen throughout this series so far, and well, they've done it. Well, again, they've proved that they can. I think that's the great lesson to this test match team, that over the course of the last few innings, they've really tried to play the test match way. After that, 67 all out at head, and you go to the, The second innings at Henley, incredible innings, but they dug in.

You know, they played the test match way. The first innings at Old Trafford, it wasn't easy. They played nicely. They got 301. Second innings at Old Trafford. They fought hard long into that last day, lost the game. The first innings here, right, 170 for three, you think, go on, go and get 400. And over the course of the next two and a half years, for them to compete in Australia,

that 170 for three will have to become 450. You know, they will have to learn the way of getting big, big, big, scores but today they showed a great deal of discipline and patience and you know delight for someone like Joe Denley I wrote him off you know many did and I like players that have that inner strength to prove people wrong and you know he gets the opportunity at the top of the order he fails in the first innings at Old Trafford and you think you know what it's probably done for gets a 50 in the second innings comes here fails and then in the second innings what does he do gets dropped last night just become a father for the second

time overnight he must have been thinking oh if that catch a have been taking you know what I've got to make it count I've got to go there on the third day and back with a huge amount of skill and discipline and he played so well he had a bit of fortune he had the fortune last night he had the fortune of Tim Payne not reviewing yes he would have been LBDA wouldn't he yes he would but I just like the way he's played I like the way that he's catch his hands a little bit closer to him you know if you look at joe down his test career so far a lot of his mistakes have been because he's been taking his hands to the ball too much and when there's quality on show which you have in Cummings and hazewood and there's a little bit of

wobble there, which you get in English conditions. If you don't play with your hands close to your body, you're going to get found out. Rory Burns got a fan out against Ireland because his hands were away from his body. He worked that out. And Joe Denley, whether it's been him, whether it's been working with the coaches, it's just played with his hands closer to his body and

played with control. He's got a forward defence, which is always nice to see again. We don't see too many forward defences in this year of the game. And I just like the way that England is sun and I hope the pennies finally drop that they have to play in this fashion with this mindset and this discipline. in test match cricket all the time.

If they can do, and they can show this level of commitment to doing it, it might take a bit of time for them to train their brains to get the 400s, 450s. But over time, if they commit to it, it will happen. It certainly will happen. And, you know, from this position, I can't see how Australia are going to chase this target. I mean, if they battle day tomorrow and it goes into Monday, we're in for one hell of a last day. But unless Steve Smith gets 150, I can't see Australia chase this down.

But, you know, England deserve a lot of credit from where they were, at Old Trafford. Australia just looked sloppy. They've looked sloppy in their decision-making process, their selectorial decision, the decision at the toss in the field, they've looked tired and sloppy. It's just not looked right from an Australian perspective.

And England have capitalised on the decision at the toss and played a very good game of cricket so far. A bit grumpy out there as well at times. Yeah, they are. They wanted to come here and win, obviously. They just looked a bit frazzled. I thought the moments there were way chatting away this morning and there were bits and pieces going on.

But a lot of them have been away for a long time, actually. The long tour for a number of the Australians. Well, even the ones that weren't in the World Cup, we're here playing cricket with the A-side. So they've been away for a few months. You know, we've been on Australian tours and seen England teams at the end of the tour that it's not been going well.

It's hard. But, you know, from where they were at Old Trafford to where they've been this week, Australia haven't been right. A lot of it, you've got to give the credit to the England side because they're going to just played better. Let's join Jeff Lever. and with Peter Seidel.

Peter Seidel, a tough day out there for Australia, one of those ones, I guess the few ones in the series where England really seemed to get on top. Yeah, it was. It was, obviously, yeah, it would have been nice to get a few more early breakthroughs

and put a bit of pressure on them, but it didn't come. But credit to us, I think we stuck in there. We kept toiling away and we'll be able to break partnerships. They started to get big on us, but we could break them before they got too big. And I think, you know,

still get a couple of quick wickets in the morning and get out there off the bat and you just never know. But yeah, I think there's good toiling from the boys all day there. It was obviously hard work. And, you know, the English boys dug him with the stick. So tomorrow we wake up and we go again. There's that frustration with the chances that go begging a few catches went down,

a few reviews not taken. Has it been a little bit hard to get that focus up after retaining the ashes in Manchester? Or is it just about fatigue at the end of a series? You know, what happens to get that run of problems happening? It's probably just our execution more than anything. I think everyone was fresh, everyone was ready to go. you know we took it easy to make sure that we're ready for this last game because we know like how much it meant to try and you know win the series so

I think yeah it's none of that it's probably just comes down to us not quite being on the ball not quite executing especially on day one and yeah we've been behind eight ball from the word go so it has been hard work but like I said yeah we wake up in the morning we get here get these last couple of wickets and then you know we've got a job to do off the bat and you just never know in this game we know what happened at headley on a nice batting strip. It's been pretty nice here over the last couple of days. So if we make the most of that,

who knows. You're talking about hard work. It looked like you were walking on hot coals at the end. It seemed to be a pretty hard shift in the field for you today. Yeah, I've been, yeah, obviously it hurt my hip pretty much early on in day one. So it's been a bit of a graft, yeah, the last couple of days. So it's been hard work, but, you know,

that's a test match. You do what you can do, and you just stay out there. So it was nice to get a couple of late ones and put a bit of pressure on them. But, yeah, that's all you can do. trucking in and see what you can do. It's funny how things go. You have a couple of catches go down and then a couple of absolute gems

taken late in the day as it's getting dark. You must be grateful to Manus for taking that one off you. Yeah, 100% I think that one and then, yeah, the one smudge took in slip was a blinder. So it's, yeah, it is great to see those ones held, but then you sort of look back on the ones that we probably put down

that we should have been taken. So, you know, that's the luck of the game, I guess. But yeah, like I said, tough day. A couple more to go and hopefully a couple of good days for Australia. You'll be chasing a big score. You will have a couple of days to bat, so plenty of time. The one thing Steve Smith has never done is get a fourth inning's 100. So you wouldn't bet against it, would you?

No, you wouldn't. You're probably not going to bet against him not making 50 at the minute. So that's a start. But yeah, we'll see how he goes from there. But yeah, like it is, it's been a nice baton strip. You know, not a lot happening with the ball. You know, if you're patient like they were, you sit in there for a long time that you can build an inning.

So hopefully, yeah, there's been some good lessons there for us to, you know, to take on board and see how we go off the stick when we get our chance. And just finally for you, 2015, when you played here, certain commentators were saying, oh, this will be his last test match here you are four years later, having played in an Ashes retaining series again. Yeah, I think plenty of people have written me off

from pretty much early on when I first started. So, yeah, it's been a hard toil throughout, but yeah, I love it, you know, You want to represent your country. You want to do it as much as much as you can. So that's all I'll keep doing. Just keep staying fit, stay on the park. And, you know, if the opportunity comes, be ready to take it.

And that's all I can do. But, yeah, loving the fact that fourth time lucky I could come over here and, yeah, at this stage, retain it. Hopefully, yeah, could still win it. So we'll see how we go. But, yeah, it's been a good test match. A couple more wickets for you in the morning. And if you runs, hopefully, good luck.

Cheers, mate. Thank you. Peter Settle. There we go. He did look exhausted at the end, I must say. And they will be, well, I guess out in the field again tomorrow for a while, while England just try and get together what they can and put a few more overs into Australia's legs and so on.

Just some final looking figures here, Michael, from England's batting end, who's finished, and Burns 390 runs at 39 in the series. Denley 312 at 31, Route 325 at 322. Bairstow, 214 at 23, and then a long way ahead. Ben Stokes, 441 at 55, how do you assess those? I mean, I think Burns actually averaging 39 on the pictures that we've seen against the attacks that we've had. Yeah, very similar to Joe Delling in this innings that, you know, I mentioned Daly got his hands

closer to his body, played the ball a bit later, didn't go kind of chasing it as often as we've seen in the series. Rory Burns is a character I really like, you know, he worked himself out after the Irish test match, he worked himself out in this series when they're tested him out with a few short balls. he looks a real character let's hear from Joe Denley then shall we well played him 94 didn't quite get that 100 Eleanor Aldroids with him

yeah I kind of think very much congratulations Joe for your highest test score for the new baby commiserations for not getting the century how was today yeah it was good it was obviously nice to get that score and disappointing not to get to the milestone

but we're in a great position going into day four and that's the most important thing and yeah hopefully we can make the most of it tomorrow was part of the thing for you today to make sure that you'd secured your place on the plane for the winter or were you not thinking that far ahead? No, not at all. It was just trying to occupy the crease

and if I did that then scoring opportunities would come and England would be in a good position going into day four and thankfully we are in a good position. You need an awful lot of grit out there today as well particularly you got hit in a very delicate area didn't you at one stage? Yeah, I did. I think that's the end of my

box as well so I might have to invest a new one there yeah it's tricky it's always a battle this whole series has been a you know a real graph with the bat especially against their attack and they make you work hard for every run so and today was no different well Joe Rooke had his box split in half didn't he in the previous test match yeah he did he did nasty bunch aren't they but yeah I think I borrowed Rory Burns I think they run out Rory Burns to me and he's he's got two boxes taped together so I might have to go down that route as well how are things at home because for you I want an extraordinary few

days you've had battered in the first innings dashed off saw your daughter born came back back out here scored 94 yeah it's been incredible it would have been even more amazing if I'd managed to get to that 100 mark but yeah over the moon it's always special you know new new new babies and you know yeah the other day was was amazing being able to be there at the birth. I missed my first birth by about five minutes of my son. So yeah,

great to be there and the family are home now so looking forward to getting back and going to see them. You was born during a cricket match as well, wasn't he? He was, yeah, a few years ago. I was up in Derby, batting overnight and yeah, I got on the motorway and rushed out of traffic and just missed it, so yeah, disappointing. Well, for you and Ben Stokes

to be out there together, put a partnership together as you did, not lose a wicket between lunch and tea. It feels like the kind of of batting that we've all been crying out for for a long time? Yeah, obviously Ben's been in sublime form and it's always nice batting with him. Like you say, we was able to build a good partnership. Their bowler's got a bit weary.

It's been a long series for them. And, you know, that was the key. He was trying to keep him out there and we knew opportunities to score would come and, you know, we're in a good position going here today for. Does it feel like this lead is going to be enough to secure the victory tomorrow or possibly Monday? Yeah, I think so.

We'll have to get Steve Smith out first. But hopefully the pitch will start to take a bit of turn, a bit of inconsistent bounce as well. And they got it reversing today as well. So that might be a really important thing for us tomorrow. I should tell you that at one stage, Phil Tuffnell came into the box when you were approaching 100 and said, it's amazing what some blokes will do to get out of changing nappies.

Yeah, to be fair, I do my fair share of changing nappies, and I'll be heading back tonight to see them, and I'm sure I'll have some duties like that. look forward to. Yeah, well, enjoy it. Thanks so much, Joe. Thank you very much. There we go. Joe Denley with Eleanor Aldroy. Denley making 94 today out of England's

313 for a memorable test match for him. Birth of his second child and his highest test score, not quite the 100, but... That would have been special for him to get 100, but unfortunately but yeah, birth of your kids are always important and special. My two

children, my first two children were born in between matches. We You had them induced in between. You planned it, did you? Yeah. You know, I remember my son was born on the 20th of January, 2000. 19th of January, it was a day-night match against Pakistan. And I remember that game because, yeah, you're getting ready for the next day,

but I was still playing. I had the figures of one for 61 from five overs. He just Ahmed. He just Ahmed and Abdul Razak just smashed me everywhere. And I remember that, and a lot of people remind me, Oh, what about that? But it was more the next morning when my wife was induced and James was born. And then when Holly was born, she was induced as well just before we headed off on tour.

So it's funny. And Stewie, you were saying you missed yours. Yeah, I missed the birth of my son by five minutes. Similar to Joe Denny, we were playing Australia. One day game at Edgebaston when Robin Smith got 160, I think it was. And we lost. And then as soon as I came off the field, the phone went in the dressing room when it was my mum. and saying your wife's in labour

get yourself down a motorway, got myself down as quick as I can and missed it by five minutes. Just like Joe Denley. Exactly. This is the first one by five minutes, yeah. Well, what about the state of this game? Glenn?

382 Australia would need to win if the last two wickets fell first thing tomorrow morning without the addition of any runs. What does what percentage chance do you give Australia of winning the game? You always try to be positive, but very rarely has it been done in history

where you've chased down a score that size. I did play in the one in Antigua when West Indies chased down about 418 but it takes something very special to do that. This pitch out here it's still playing quite well is it a pitch on which you could chase a score

of 380? Potentially you know it's still yeah there's not a huge amount of pace and bounce and seam movement anymore there's a little bit of shape which we saw from Mitchell Marsh I think Jack Lach will come into his own 97 we chased a

123 here and fell 19 short. So in that respect, no. But if you go out thinking that, the game's over. So it can be over very quickly too. So, you know, Australia, they've got Steve Smith, whether the other bats are going to put their hands up and score some runs.

Dave Warner, you know, to think how many runs he scored this series, if you said take out that 61 and it's nothing, who would have thought that at the start of the series? So maybe he's due for some runs. Probably not the way he's batting. the batting line up looking at it they're all going to have to do something very special but England did it at Headingley

they all pitched in I know it was a mammoth effort from Ben Stokes and a bit of luck to go with it but it can be done but yeah you need amazing innings combined with luck you need everything just to fall in place Joe Denley actually scored more runs today

than David Warner has scored in the whole series that's one of those little remarkable stats about this game of cricket If Australia don't win this game and they don't draw it and they draw the series, how do you think that will go down in this squad? I mean, they've planned for a long time and a lot of the planning has been good and they've really had their moments in the series, it feels that they've controlled the series,

but ultimately it could well be that it is 2-2 and no series victory. Yeah, no series victory. The only saving grace is the fact that we retain the ashes. So they come over here firstly to retain the ashes. they wanted to win the series. I think 2-1-3-1 would have been a fair indication of how the series has gone, but England's just found ways to hang in there and just keep hanging in there.

So they'll be disappointed. But you have to... You've only got yourself to blame, really. Winning the toss and bowling on this pitch. First mistake, probably should have played Mitchell Stark instead of Pete Sittle. Second mistake, the way they've used the reviews this series, Yeah, they've really struggled. Tim Payne's struggle with the reviews, that would have made a difference.

So, end of the day, they can say, well, England managed to hang in there. We made mistakes along the way. 50-50, too all, well, we've got the ashes. So that's the only... A bit of tinge of disappointment, though, as they get on that plane. Of course. But, like I said, England found ways to hang in there to go into the last test to 1. They've played well.

They've outplayed Australia in this last test. and if they win this test and they deserve this test match so yeah it's been one of those test series where it could have been should have been but wasn't Alec you played in a few consolation victories actually at the end of the series didn't you

for England and Ashie's series this would be a bit more than that though this is massive because of the summer that England have had World Cup champions and then to have drawn a series against Australia it would be nice to have done the Dublin won the Ashie's back but it can be a summoner look back very proudly of

and that's why it was crucial that they've put in a performance today that has got them into a position where England will win this test match. I don't expect Australia to get within 100 of this total. So you give Australia no chance of winning, 0% chance of winning the game? I'll give them 1% so you're telling me that's a chance.

1%? That's enough. If you want to take that? 1 in a million. Okay. If you want to put a million on? Sorry, I'm going to the dummy number where you go, what was all that 1 in a million child? But now I'm not seeing it. You're right. Again, you know, Glenn's been here before when you've been on tour, it's been

a long tour, you go into the last innings of the game, highly unlikely you're going to win. It's going to take something which I just don't expect Australia to do. You know, Steve Smith has been unbelievable all series. We even saw that with his catching today. But it's going to take, not just him being superhuman,

but it's going to take three other blokes to do just the same, and they haven't done it. So why are they going to start now? Well, I suppose Warner's got the quality, hasn't? He certainly hasn't got the form, though. And that's a problem. You know, it's going to need two blokes to get two massive hundreds. And we're only seeing Smith-Labashane has been good.

But when you go under the caution is that scoreboard pressure and there's rough outside there from the bowlers, etc. To me, I'm just expecting England to win. Does it matter how England played tomorrow morning there for? Or would it be quite useful if Archer, say, or broad slogged a few around in the morning? Now they've batted on, they may as well tee off in the morning. To me, I'd have even contemplated at quarter past six. declaring when Butler got out

I'd have thought 370 ahead why not declare have two overs at Warner and perhaps have Australia two down they're nervous would you really have done that as captain there I'm just thinking

once if Butler was still there and it'd been leecher that got out now I'd have carried on because Butler could have got another 30 or 40 but I'm not expecting that these guys to get too many more and you know history will say you don't chase down 370 too many times anyway

so why not just throw it back and it also shows real positive intent. I know it's easy set up here because you're not the decision-making, but you just wonder whether that may have been the case. And there is the other angle to look at. Australia are going to come aggressive at Archer, at Leach, at Broad.

If one of them gets hit, say a freak accident or hit on the arm, hitting the ribs or does something where they can't bowl in the second innings, then it makes a big difference. If I was Australian, I'm going back in time and it's quite violent things. in this, but I'm surprised I haven't tried

to take one of the England bowlers out the equation by hitting them. You know, go real aggressive at them for exactly those reasons. If you can stop one of them bowling Yeah, but you can keep going. You know, that is a thing. Yes, you've got to get them out, but try and knock them out. And I don't mean, you know, badly, badly, but

can you make them be unavailable to bowl the next day? Or even... Jack Leach on the fingers, for example. Or just a couple of really quick yorkers on top of the foot, break a toe or something, then, you know, but if that... We're not promoting violence, by the way, but it is what happens. But that is a possibility.

You get hit on the toe, you know, archer or broad, broken toe. They can't bowl. So, yeah, that's always in the back of your mind. But, you know, modern day cricketers wear that much protection these days. It's not a big issue. We saw some couple of fabulous catches from Australia. But actually, they were sort of undone, weren't they, by a drop catch. I'm thinking of the Ben Stokes drop catch, Denley last night.

I mean, they're so, so crucial. And that is a thing. and Glenn touched on it earlier. You know, Australia have retained the ashes, you know, well done to them. But for some really good cricket that they've played, they've also been pretty careless and sloppy, especially in this test match. You know, Smith, we talk about his batting, but, you know, some of those catches today, unbelievable. But some of the basics and both sides, but Australia's just seemed to have,

for someone who I've always perceived as a really good fielding side, going back from when I played on was Mark War and others, they've dropped some real basic catches here. What would you put that down to? Is it anything in particular? Is it because we're in the middle of September and they've been here forever and ever? It's concentration. I always believe you drop a catch.

When it's a straightforward catch, different if you're diving full length. It's down a concentration. And that can show in how you bat as well, I think. You make errors when you're batting because you don't concentrate. Yeah, and Australia dropped catches in the first innings, drop catches in the second inning.

So, yeah, you can't drop, what are they, drop five or six catches for the match. You can't do that and then expect to be still in the running. And even a confidence or lack of competence in how to use DRS as well. They're shot ducks there in that respect. And the two catches they took, that was a sensational catch by Steve Smith

and a great catch by Manus Lovashane. But, yeah, it's a little bit, you know, it's like closing the gate when the horse has already bolted sort of thing. But, yeah, it's good to say, well, they still have to take him. So they're still up for it. So hopefully that'll show him the batting as well.

Just a final few thoughts from you, Alec. Joe Denley, we talked about him last night. We talked about other contenders to open. and the batting. He's come out and made 94. What do you think that means for him for the next few months? Well, I reckon he can now buy himself a suitcase and start packing for New Zealand. He's still not nailed it, but he's shown some progress, he's shown some guts. But I'd expect the selectors to look at how much better Denny can get.

Can he get better at 32? 33? Or do you also bring along on the tour, your Zach Crawley's, your Dominic Sibblis, as we spoke about last night, so that one they're gaining. experience being in and around the international set up in case Denley doesn't do it in those two test matches against New Zealand. He's still under the scrutiny. Great to see him get

94. Just a shame he didn't get the three figures. Once you get three figures, you almost feel as though you're part of the international setup. He could have got 99 still feel the same. Could have got a hundred and got out the very next board. He'd have felt I've got a test match 100. It means so much mentally as well as what it means to the

selectors and public. It's been like taking a first five You feel like Ok, I've contributed to the team. I'm here, I'm part of it. The TMS podcast at the Oval for the fifth test of the ashes. Don't forget to watch the best of the day's play, including two superb Australian catches via the BBC Sport website and the app. Well, our view from the boundary guest this afternoon was the actor Toby Jones.

He'd have seen him in films such as Dad's Army, Captain America and the Hunger Games series. He narrated the recent movie The Edge, the story of England's rise to the best test team in the world. but admits his own cricketing exploits weren't up to much. Of course, I wanted to be a fast bowler because I could run like Michael Holding, I thought. And then I went to the indoor cricket school at Lords, and I think it's Don Ellis, or whoever the guy was there,

put me right on a few things about my self-perception and said, I think you need to bowl spin. And so I tried to bowl spin. I've tried to bowl spin ever since. Off spin. And a bit of batting as well. I mean, you must have heard Richie Benno in toning, you know, as your 100 came up of Andy Robbins.

Batting fine with a tennis ball in the back garden. Not quite so much when you're out in the middle. I think, again, the idea of telling the story of my innings before it had actually happened. So you go, you hit a good shot and then you make the mistake of going, today is going to be the day that I make my big innings. I can feel it. This is it. And I'm sort of haunted by a cover drop.

The best shot, probably the only really good shot I've ever played. in a competitive cricket match and I was out next ball but this shot and I thought if only I'd listen to all that training rather than pretended to listen to it. That full chat with Toby Jones is available to download as a podcast on the TMS feed

at T I spoke to the man charged with leading Australian cricket on from the ball tampering scandal and the fallout that followed Kevin Roberts has held the role of chief executive for just short of a year now and I asked if there was a lesson for any sporting authority to learn

from cricket Australia's recent journey, what would it be? I think it's perhaps not getting ahead of yourself and not letting things slip into a space where perhaps there's a view that the end might justify the means. So as an example, you know, the goal in professional sport will always be to win and we shouldn't shy away from that. And if you play against Australia, we want you to feel like you're in an intense contest. But together with the players, we've got a non-negotiable expectation that we compete with respect for the game and so therefore the end doesn't justify the means that's the that's the biggest lesson i think the way that you go about whatever you do is as important

or more important than the outcome in many ways a heroic loss does more for the game than winning a winning a match and not doing it in the right way yeah that's very true it's interesting isn't it how i mean you play ozies at sport they know what you're going to get it's going to be tough, it's going to be hard. But fair, you know, that's what it wants to be, but so to come where you have come from, to get the balance right with the players, I mean, you know, there've been one or two little

points here and there, and that's fine, because you kind of, you know, it's test cricket after all. So you don't want to be something that you're not. But the balance has to be right, isn't it? You've still got to be fierce competitors. Yeah, true to your character as Australians, you know, that pioneering spirit, having a crack against the odds, and

we never want to lose that. So, as an example, we've got an enormous respect for New Zealand as a nation in just about every way. Do they for you, are not quite possibly? Well, let's hope so. It was interesting relationship with you and the Kiwis, I think. Yeah, and as much as New Zealand is amazing, on and off the sporting field, we've got to be our own authentic selves, you know, rather than saying let's be like New Zealand.

And I think that intense competition, but playing in the spirit of the game. And you look at the number one Tesbola in the world, Pat Cummins. You know, so every mother in Australia wants him to marry their daughter. But he's an intense competitor at the same time, number one test bowler in the world. That's proof in the pudding that you can be a fierce competitor, number one in the world, but be a good bloke at the same time. Yeah, correct. It's been interesting watching Steve Smith, particularly during the course, of this series, of course.

I mean, he was anxious, I think. I had quite well with him at Edgebaston before the test. He could see, understandably, he knew it was going to be difficult going forward, the reaction of the crowd and so on. And he did a wonderful interview at Old Trafford where he just seemed to be sort of a different person again. I mean, he has got that double hundred, but he just seemed very relaxed and sort of easy with himself. I mean, do you think looking on and obviously mentoring him as you have to do, do you think he sort of come through that he's come through the worst of it all? I think so, Jonathan, absolutely.

And I mean, he's been to Helen back and as has Dave Warner and Cameron Bancroft. And yes, mistakes were made, heavy consequences with a result. of that and to their credit they've all learned and grown as people they've had great life experience over that year out that they wouldn't have otherwise had and and what a great credit to them and the way that they've dealt with some of the the spirited booing from crowds over here which you know on the one hand isn't in the spirit of the game but on the other hand I've said before if you boo someone like a David Warner you don't understand the mindset of a champion they only lift and I know he hasn't had an Ashes series to

remember yet until he hopefully gets a hundred in the second innings. It's kind of got it written there possibly, isn't it? Let's hope so. 170 not out tomorrow or something to do. Essentially the two characters and how they cope with it too, isn't it? I mean, I must have a bit, I don't know very not nearly like you do, but I thought that maybe David Warner would bluster his way through it and that actually it might be the more nervous, agitated, emotional Steve Smith who might struggle with all that, but actually

it appears to be another way around. And I think if you look at, you backtrack a few months to the World Cup, Jonathan, you know, Steve had a good, very good, well, good World Cup. Yeah. He didn't have a spectacular World Cup, but look at his Ashes series, his series, it's almost unprecedented. And I think he did take time to find his place and find his way.

But to his credit, he just kept chipping away, whereas Dave came in and was on song right from the start. He was scoring hundreds in club cricket last season, just about every time he walked out. Steve took a bit longer to find his rhythm and regain his mojo, if you like. But to his credit, he's absolutely. got it and some right now. Could you see him captaining again?

Is that a decision that's down the line? Look, for now, we're really grateful for the leadership that Tim Payne's provided. I don't think there's anyone else in Australian cricket could have led this team the way Tim has over the last 18 months. And I don't think he could have done it if he didn't have a few

years almost out of the game with a smashed finger. You know, going to the school of Hard Knocks, having some life experience, that set him up as a leader so we don't have any plans to contemplate a new leader of the test team. team, but we're just so pleased with team's leadership and really excited for Steve in coming back in as the world's best batter in the world and just taking it to the next level.

It was a big responsibility for paying, isn't it actually? Absolutely. Like your position, I mean, the fresh starts and everything else and the responsibility going forwards. Absolutely, but I mean, he makes my role easier. So does Justin Langer, you know, I sleep soundly at night in the knowledge that in our men's and women's coaches and captains, we've got leaders who go about it the right way with respect for the spirit of the game.

And we'll keep making mistakes because we're human, but I hope we'll be making the right mistakes rather than the wrong ones and that we don't have to deal with issues that we've been seeing for the last couple of years. Sure. So much other things to talk about. You're going to Pakistan, aren't you, on the way back from?

I am on the way home. I'm looking forward to that. So Pakistan. So where are we with this then? How's this? I mean, is this with a view to possibly touring there? Well, we're not due to go back there until 2022, Jonathan. So it's a way off.

But I think it's really important that we respect Pakistan as a really important nation, international cricket, and well ahead of that series in 2022. I've not been to Pakistan. I've been to India numerous times, but really want to pay respect to Pakistan cricket, understand the landscape more, and we share their desire for international cricket to return.

I think it would be fantastic. But of course, we won't put our players or our support staff at risk. And also, I'm not going to ask a team to tour Pakistan in 2022 or whenever, if I haven't led by example and been there first. You know, no leader worth their salt asks their people to do something that they haven't done themselves.

You'll enjoy it. It's a wonderful country. I'm looking forward to the experience. Yeah, and an outstanding CEO there in Wazim Khan, who, of course, was at Leicestershire previously. So it developed a great mutual respect with Wos and really looking forward to spending some time with him over there. Yeah, you'll enjoy it. How are you going to fit everything in? You've got Afghanistan coming as well, haven't you?

I mean, these new nations, we've played Ireland here, of course, almost got beaten them. We'll gloss over that. But it's such a crowded schedule, isn't it? It is. How on earth you juggle all these things? Oh, look, it's a real challenge between men's and women's cricket, international, domestic, test cricket, domestic leagues emerging. It is a real challenge. And the perfect solution might be a 56-week year.

Last time I checked, I don't think we can do that. But I think it's really important in the next cycle of the Future Tours program from 2023 onwards that, that we don't see an increase in the volume of cricket. We've got to be so mindful of the well-being of the players. They want to put on a great spectacle. They want to compete. We want fans to enjoy it. And we've got a responsibility to the players

to make sure that it's a manageable program. And so we've got to be really careful that we're not adding more to it in that next cycle, I think. It's been interesting to see this. And I think, well, I think we have seen a possible deterioration and batting techniques. I mean, I can say that. You don't have to agree.

but the figures suggest it anyway. And you look at the amount of one-day cricket that these same people are playing. Is it fair on them to be playing so much? I mean, do you think the balance is right for one-day cricket and the preparation for test cricket? I mean, can you see batting techniques failing from where they were, I don't know, 20 years ago?

Oh, look, to some degree, I guess, but it's a trade-off, right? We've seen batting in the short-form cricket that we never could have imagined. And we see Ben Stokes' switch hit a six. on route to that amazing victory. Does that happen in test cricket if we didn't have the T20 format?

So I can see both sides of it. You know, let's be open. In our first innings here, I wish we didn't lose so many wickets playing across the line, but it's a pretty easy game for me up in the grandstand. And I had a look at the 2015 Ashes stats

and six players in the 2015 series across the two teams combined, average more than 30. Before this test, we had five players averaging more than. than 30. So not a big difference to last time, but I think it's compelling test cricket when you might have

average scores of say 250 40 wickets, 1,000 runs as an awesome test match, whereas a T20 match, maybe 400 runs is fantastic, a batter's dominated game in the short form and give the bowlers at half a chance in the long form. Four day tests? Would that be an easy

solution for you or not? Look, I think it's a possibility. It's something that we should be open to, absolutely. I'm not sure it's a panacea. but the reality is that the average length of a test match is about four days and one session and so they're not going for a full five days so there is an argument to say

you could extend each day a little bit you know there's not as many overs bowled in a day now as they used to be back in your day players might not have as much stamina now as you did perhaps Jonathan I don't know absolutely all that training we did so I think it's something that needs to be constantly considered over time

I don't have a strong view on it other than to say I think we need to be open-minded to it. Free some days up, I suppose. I mean, I'm against, I want five days. I want batsmen to know how to bat and to, you know, defend stoutly and not boringly. I mean, I'm looking at behind me there, Mr Boycott. But, you know, because the game has moved on.

Absolutely. But, I mean, if you look at the crowded schedules you were talking about and inevitably more T20 things, I mean, it just seems that it could easily happen. Yeah, it is a challenge. And I guess sometimes, though, we're probably a little bit glass half empty as a sport. And you think about other sports, they'd love to have the challenge of three formats.

And how do we fit all these cricket in? They're demand for more cricket. They're three good formats, aren't they? Exactly. So it is a challenge, but it's a good challenge rather than a bad one, if I can put it that one. Now, we're a bit distracted here or will be about the hundred. Have you investigated this much?

Are you pensions getting it into your Australian schedule over the next couple of years or not? I'll be interested in it? Yeah, look, it's a really interesting one. And I think if it does the same thing for English cricket that the Big Bash has done for Australian cricket, it'll be great. If we look at the Big Bash, and I'm not suggesting we're perfect, but you had about a million people coming to the cricket every year in Australia before the Big Bash. Now it's over two million every year. And among that first minion, there weren't too many mums and there weren't too many children. And so our audience for our crowds for the Big Bash are skewed heavily towards families.

So if the 100 can do that, which I know they want to, and an English cricket needs, to, that's a great thing for cricket. So I think it comes down to the quality of the players and the contest, and let's hope that it can open up that new market if you like. We had over 40 million cumulative

audience in the BBL season on TV last year. So I really hope for English cricket the 100 can do that. The TMS podcast at the Ashes. Download and subscribe via the BBC Sounds app. We're back on air from 1030,

tomorrow morning on Five Live Sports Extra, Radio 4 Longwave and the BBC Sounds app for what might well be the final day of this memorable cricket summer. We'll speak to you then. Available every day during every test. This is the TMS podcast at the Ashes from BBC Radio 5 Live.