Test Match Special - The Oval day 4: What a summer

Episode Date: September 15, 2019

We hear from Joe Root, Jofra Archer, Ben Stokes and Steve Smith after England's 135-run win at The Oval meant a drawn Ashes series for the first time in 47 years. Michael Vaughan has his say on why this result will be significant for Root's leadership of the side going forward, Alec Stewart says Ashley Giles has big decisions to make in the post Trevor Bayliss, and Glenn McGrath gets the final word on the pod as the urn heads back to Australia.

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Download and subscribe via the BBC Sounds app. Your bowls to Stokes who hammers it for four. It scans there with a bat raised. I cannot believe what we have just witnessed. Steve Smith has missed the ball. Joe Root out, first ball, and England are naught for two. Out.

And it's all over. They're all hugger-mugger out there. Delighted to have retained the ashes. 263 for 9 then Leach strides in and he bowls and that's clipped away and it's a brilliant catch by Joe Root first ball it was clipped hard and low and to his left and it's somehow fitting that this summer this international summer should end with a movement of brilliance like that an incredible catch so for the final final time this summer. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast. England have won here at the Oval

by 135 runs to draw the Ashes series and ensure that Trevor Bayliss's tenure ends with a victory. Lots of reaction to come. We'll hear from Joe Root, Steve Smith, Ben Stokes and Joffra Archer. But first let's bring in Michael Vaughn. The TMS podcast at the Oval for the fifth test of the ashes. I don't know. It feels like England had won the Ashes. If you watch the celebrations going off there and you look at the long faces in the Australian dressing room, But I wonder who'll be happy. I mean, England clearly, two, two.

He'll take that, wouldn't they, with the World Cup? Yeah, I mean, they've got to celebrate the fact that, you know, just a few days ago, Australia would retain the ashes. We all expected Australia to blow England away this week. Well, England have produced a performance. They've got the opportunity to bat first, got 2.94. With the ball in particular, they've been exceptional in this game. You know, whether they play better when they've got a little score on the board,

you know, only they need to kind of realize how they play their test cricket going forward. And is that the way that they want to play? And is that the only way that they can really cope with pressure is, you know, when they've got a few runs on the board. But, you know, in terms of reacting, this England team generally reacts in a positive sense when they've had a bit of criticism. You know, after Hedley, the week after at Old Trafford, you know, that'll be the one thing I'd look at in the team is those first two days at Old Trafford.

It just didn't seem quite right. And for England to move forward and be a very high quality test match team, which when you look at the talent they have in the team, they can become a really good test match team. You know, they've got to be honest with themselves. Australia deserves to retain the ashes because over a five-match series, England knew that they had to win the ashes to get them back. And Australia have just done enough. They really have just done enough to get that earn back on the plane to Australia. But I have to say, the series has been fantastic. You know, it's been a great series to watch.

Both teams have played their part. everything from the pitchers, the ball that we use here, the atmosphere is in the grounds, a little bit of banter here and there. Steve Smith, just a freak, a genius. And at times, we've seen some real quality from the England side. Ben Stofebred, Schofer Archer. Stuart Broad's been, as a senior bowler,

and when you think that Jimmy Anderson broke down after four overs, Stuart Broad really kind of stepped up to the senior ranks has produced another wonderful performance in the National Series. That's the third time that he's got over 20 wickets in an average. series. That's incredible bowling from Stuart Broad. I think this week, as much as it's about the team and it's too all, it's about Joe Root. He needed this win. The skipper needed this victory. Just to give himself a boost, just to give himself a little bit of a confident boost to remind him that, you know, he is doing it quite a lot right. You know, there's times

in the series where he's got it wrong and the tactics haven't quite been right. You'd probably say that batting at three's not been a good idea. He's a number four and I think he needs that breather as a captain to just give himself more space to kind of find his mind before he goes out to bat. But I'm really pleased for him because I know how hard he's working at the captain behind the scenes and I know how much he wants to be the England captain. I know how much he wants to drive this team into a new era of test match cricket. And I'm sure we'll see a little change going forward. We've got a new coach coming in. I'm sure we'll see a change all two in personnel in the team. And I think we might see a change over the next two years in terms of

the approach that the test team take in terms of those that play all the three formats, maybe they'll miss the odd one day series to make sure that they're fresh and ready for test match cricket because as we spoke about at Old Traffa when Australia's retained the ashes, we all said this test team just needs a little bit of

TLC and it's not a huge amount it just needs a little bit more structure and a little bit more thought from this going forward and Joe Rootter is a skipper to certainly lead them forward for another couple of years before that next Ashes series in Australia because he'll know that as a captain

he's certainly not going to survive a third time that he takes on Australia and he doesn't bring the ashes home so over the next two and a half years he'll be working you know endlessly with the new coach to try and make sure that you know these teams are very competitive in Australian conditions England have lost nine of the last ten test matches in Australia so there's a long way to go with this team to make sure that they're competitive in two and a half years time but just winning things like this

here this week giving a group of players a confidence boost to finish the summer and more importantly, giving that captain a confidence boost moving forward. It's always nice to see the players at the end of a series like this and I had Josh Hazelwood and Rory Burns coming down the steps together in animated conversation. Let's face it, Hazelwood's been knocking all sorts of lumps out of him or trying to over the last couple of months.

I saw Johnny Berstow there talking to Mitchell Stark and there was Jason Roy and Pat Cummins So they're all having little conversations about themselves. And that's good. I think it has been in a really good way. And it looks as I'm going with the first cab off the rank today, I think, in that I can see the England captain bearing down on me is being firmly brief as to what to say, no doubt.

Joe, you've got a big smile on your face. How's that? Yeah, very good performance this week. I thought we were brilliant. To bounce back from a very difficult, I think, emotionally, emotional week at Old Trafford to come back. play in the manner that we have.

We always talk about character. This team's got it in abundance. It was more of a template this week of how we want to do things moving forward. We've still got lots of things we want to improve on and develop and get better at. But it's a step in the right direction in front of a very important winter.

So I'm very pleased that we've played in this manner and I'm very proud of everyone's efforts throughout the whole summer. Is it easy in a way? If you've won down, you've got to win, you've got to level the series. It must have been a very strong motivator, wasn't it? Yeah, I mean

it's Ashes cricket. In every game you turn up for an Ashes, it means so much to everyone. You're playing for your country for a start. There's no more of a motivation than that. And it means so much to everyone. You could see different periods throughout this game that someone really wrestled it back into our favour. And for the majority of the time, we sort of

forced the cricket, if you like, and played the majority of it. And for the first time in a series, we felt like we've been in front of the game the whole way through which is a really pleasing thing and some we've got a harness and get used to doing it more and more Joffre Archer let's should we start with him and the impact that he's had on his last four test he's phenomenal isn't he I mean very skillful high pace gets creates an atmosphere within the ground and I think we've been blessed with some wonderful crowds throughout this summer across all cricket but this Asher series we've you know we've

I felt the support massively, even this week, not being out of lift the earth. Everyone's turned out in force and given us an extra man, if you like. And he's really jumped on that. He's got high skill with the new ball, and then he's made things happen. He's made things happen. He's turned a game times, and he's had a huge impact. It's great for someone so young and so inexperienced to already feel like you can throw the ball to him under pressure and he'll deliver.

Ben Stokes. he seems to just be getting better and better he's been through a huge amount he's put that all behind him and he's born and made for big occasions I mean this summer's just proof of it the more responsibility you give him

the more you get out of him and what he's achieved that summer's been outstanding and slightly disappointed we're not the ones on that stage lifting it for him because he's been phenomenal and Stuart Broad has mentioned him too

I mean I had some conversations of him before the series I don't think he was altogether certain that he would even be here at this match what a series he's had he's had a great series he's a great competitor

assimiler he's got that makeup in him where he wants to be involved in these big series and he often delivers his best performances of coming Ashes cricket and you know he continues to add value to the team and the way he bowled

at the opening has in particular set the tone been outstanding all series we've a lot of the time got them 20, 30 for two and that's been down to some high quality bowling from him and a last thought

for one of the other bits how important was that win for you captain take a bit of pressure off you a bit of heat off you were you feeling any pressure? It was important for us as a side you know we're playing Nash's cricket we want to make sure that we got something from this series

every single one of us desperate to win this game and lads have stood up under pressure and that counts for a lot it does and it's a good learner for some very inexperienced players within the team and you know

it'll hold us in good stead moving forward for sure right I've got a magno champagne there for you Joe that is I'll tell you why because your catch you just took there as the best possible advert for numbers on the back of a shirt it all happens so quickly I saw a glimpse of a six

I thought I've got to go for route brilliant catch thank you brilliant catch Yeah, I've dropped a few of this game, so I thought I'd need some making up to do. So it's great to have finished the game how we did. I thought Jack did a fantastic job all day, under pressure. He was expected to perform and expected to take wickets. He continued to put, well, to keep things tight at one end

when at times it was getting a little bit hairy and they got away from us a little bit. And I took some vital wickets. So I'm very pleased for him as well. I think it was a big day for him. A little job here for you to do. You don't know Brian. who's our long-serving engineer. We're finally getting rid of him this year.

This is last test match. I've signed him a nice shirt. Look at that. There you go. What does it say on there? Brian, thank you for keeping TMS on the air for 29 years, wishing you all the best in your next inning's best wishes. More or less on the air of 29.

Joe, thank you. We'll catch you later. Thanks for talking to us and enjoy the champagne. Well caught. There we go. Little thank you for you. It was all worth it. Well, yes.

Of course it was. Let's have it on. Let's have it on. Just don't do what I do with Brian Lauer and put it in the washing machine. Let's have it on. For goodness sake, do that. Well, I thought the fellow was a bit of pressure off there, did you? Oh, yeah, definitely. No question.

I mean, if England had been blown away this week and it had been a win completely for Australia, 3-1, you know, I think Joe would have found it, you know, I would say, incredibly difficult, and he couldn't be able to turn it around because I think he knows that this test team. He admitted himself there that it just needs a remodel, it just needs a little, little bit of a look at. But the DNA of the side and the way that they played this week

in terms of, you know, batting with discipline, batting with control, really digging in and fighting and then bowling with a consistency with the ball that is just about the basics. Test match cricket is a long game

that you can just play the basics and it's generally the teams that can play the basics for longer periods go out and win the test match. You know, I look at the Australian side and in particular the captain Tim Payne. I just wonder what he's thinking.

because, you know, Selectoria this week, Australia got it wrong, playing Peter Siddler, ahead of Mitchell's start. The decision at the toss, it surprised everyone. You know, it really did. For him to have bowled first on that first day, knowing against this England's side that, you know, there are a team that if you get 250 in the first innings, you pretty much win every single time.

I think England have won two in 27 when the opponents have got beyond 250 when they've been chasing the game. On this venue, only three times in the history as the team won the toss and bowled. won the game. So everything was against Tim Payne. He went with his gut. He went with a hunch at the toss. I think he surprised quite a few of his team members. Who knows if he'd have decided to have a bat. I've got a sneaker suspicious. We might have been stood here in different circumstance because the pitch definitely dried out. Spin came into the game. A bit of reverse

swing. But full crate to England when you're under pressure and you have to deliver, that's exactly what England have done this week. They've delivered. They've won quite easily. They've played the discipline and they played the patience and they played the pressure card nicely but they have to get better when they get praised this england test match team are very good when they're kind of chips and backs are to the wall and people have been prodding them and maybe questioning one or two them in the side they're a better test team when they get that kind of prod from people outside the bubble they've got to try and find that inward they've got to try and find that inner motivation almost that when they go to the practice zones it's like this is the last chance alone can they

get their mindsets into last chance saloon on a weekly basis and become a real consistent test match team. Joffre Archer is England's player of the series. We'll get his figures for you at the end of the series, all being well in a second. We'll talk to him in a moment

as well, but six-wickets or perhaps the man of the match, actually. I'll get that story. He's man of the match for his six were in the first things. There we go. I must say, I thought Ben Stokes might get the series. Anyway, that could still happen. So Joffre Archer is man of the match. for that wonderful performance in the first of things.

He worked up a bit of a furious pace there again this afternoon as well. But, I mean, what a goldmine England have here, for goodness sake. Yeah, I mean, he's wonderful, isn't he? He had those two days at Old Trafford where he was a little bit off. The conditions were awful for bowling. They've got a match winner, you know, Joe Root going forward. They've got a bowler that's going to cause all the batting line that's around the world, a huge amount of problems.

And he's got the character. I just like the way that he plays the game. He looks like he's quite chill. Here he is. He's coming for a chat. Right then, Joffre, you've got another bottle of champagne. Do you like it? I'll find out soon, I'll think you will.

What a summer you've had? I mean, crikey. You've bowed the Super Over, you helped win the World Cup. You're man in the match here in the last test of the ashes of England coming back and squaring it. It's not a bad start, is it? No, from the moment, playing a shirt on it, it's just been the exciting cricket ever since.

Actually, for my God, I took six tickets in the first innings because I didn't get one in the second so that's why you know but I'm just glad that we were able to draw the series you know we gave them something to fight for today so

all happy in here what do you make of test cricket it's up and down we make it less in two innings you know so it just goes to show how hard test cricket is you know they're a very good team very good batters um geez

more than that Steve Smith was a task actually very glad to see the back of him today as well Yeah, and is it something you want to play a lot more of if you really got the bug of test cricket, do you think? Yeah, there will be teams that won't have so many fastball. It's a lot far to that. Yeah, you are, you've given your captain something, haven't you, with that pace, I don't know how accurate those guns are,

but up there, you know, mid-90s again, without apparently much difference in your action, you just slip a gear. I don't know how, you're right, I actually don't know how accurate the guns are, you know. Some days you might be feeling good, and you look at the gun, it's saying 86, 87.

Other days, I may not feel so good, and it's saying 90. So it's a bit up and down, but for me, as long as you feel good, you're going to bother. So the speed doesn't really matter. Who's helped you? Who's been your main go-to man during the course of these test matches? Everyone, they are. All the guys, shorter pitching,

is the closest guy to you all of. It's coming to you. So there's not one person in particular, it's the whole team. Okay. Jopra, well done. Congratulations. Enjoy that. Tell me if you like it.

Thank you, well. Okay. If he goes, man in the match, Joffar Archer, over his 6'0. He's laid back. Are these rather strange? Oh, this is a track suit. Well, those holes in the back of his track suit? They're not a track suit. That's his whites. Why are there holes in there, then? Well, just to give himself a little bit of ventilation.

He generally has his jumper tied around his waist, which I enjoy. I just like his character. He looks like he plays every single day the same. You know, he's a character that can cope with the pressure because I don't think he probably knows what the pressure is. He's just a guy that already. He has bowled the last over in a super over and won England the World Cup and already in his first four test matches has got two six-fers and has helped England win a couple of test matches.

So, you know, we're going to see a great deal of Joff Raj. You're intrigued by these holes. Well, I've never seen trousers like it, and they do have one, two, three, four. It's about 12 holes, and small ones drilled in, as it were, to the back of the knee. And there must be some sort of a ventilation system that goes through his trousers. And you've got buttons down the side as well. I don't know. So the game's changed, Michael.

The game has changed. Where are we on now? We're on to Ben Stokes. We'll talk to him in a minute because he is the man of the series. That's been selected by the Australians, Justin Langer. I mean, he's had an amazing series, hasn't he? I mean, with, well, bat and ball, frankly, and some catches too. So he's coming around.

I gave him a champagne moment. Magnum yesterday. He's got another one there. So I think the last time, I think the last time I interviewed Ben was actually after the World Cup final but here he comes Ben I don't know the accolades keep going

well well done yeah thanks it's quite a weird feeling out there at the end there we stood there obviously very happy what we managed to do in this game in terms of what we set out to do

but you know it's still like we couldn't win the ashes in terms of what we wanted to do before the series started but you know now with this test championship around there's every game means something there's no dead rubbers and I think

we did fantastically well and you know we managed to draw the series and i think that's a very fair scorecard in terms of how it's been played yeah it's been a funny well it'd be a great summer but to prioritize importance of things i don't feel to win the world cup and to square this two too i mean i think i don't know if you start of course you wouldn't i think it's a fair collection yeah i think you know the start of the summer you know everyone was so excited in terms of what we had ahead of us and i think you know now the summers came to an end it's been an incredible one to be a part of as a player. And, you know, there's a few people who obviously can say

their World Cup winners and a few guys who can also say they've drawn the Asher series. You know, we haven't lost it. We obviously would have liked to have won it, but, you know, take you back to before the first World Cup game, you know, well-cut winners and drawn an Asher series. Yeah. How important was it for you

to get the vice-captainty back? Yeah, you know, massive. I took a huge amount of pride when I got given the opportunity to be Joe's vice-captain hand, something that, you know, I'll take a lot of pride continuing to do as well. You know, I know Joe's come under a lot of scrutiny recently about the captain's sea, but there's not a better man in this changing him to lead this team. You know, he's a young captain. He's learned along the way, and, you know, you're always

going to keep learning as well. And I think when you get put in tricky situations in terms of, you know, game situations, it's the only way you can get better and learn. And I think he's going to take a lot from this as a captain. And as I said, there's not a better person to change him to lead England forward. Joffre Archer, what sort of difference has he made? Yeah, he's brought a complete different aspect towards the England test side that we haven't seen in a long, long time. You know, 90 mile an hour with amazing skill

with the ball, amazing control. Everyone goes on about how fast he can ball, but no one's really noticed about it. He doesn't really go anywhere. You know, the faster you ball, obviously the faster the ball comes off the bat. But, you know, I think his economy career rate so far is at 2.8 or something like that. that was an average of, you know, in the teens, I think, with the ball. So we've got a special

talent there. And I think, you know, the longer we see him on the field, the longer we'll see him putting in match winning performances. One of the other things this summer is being Jack Leach for me and the way the crowd does love him. I mean, you've spent so much time. And, you know, going back to Headingley again. And you two are always going to be bonded now, aren't you? I think you're even using his box still, aren't you? I'm still using his box, yeah. That's something slightly dodgy about that. No, I've started wearing the old budgie smugglers just to make sure, because the gang got too close. But yeah, I think, you know, Leachie's been, you know, on the first class scene now for a very long time.

He's had a fantastic record. He's done Lions cricket. He's gone through the whole process to end up getting here. And he got his chance in Sri Lanka and did incredibly well. And I think he's shown here that when we have a four-man team attack, he's very, very effective as our spinner. You know, not only does he provide us with a threat to take wickets, but he also provides us with a bowler who can go at two men over and drive the run rate up. And yeah, he's been the crowd favourite this whole summer.

The country's better in love with him. Ben, thank you so much. Well done. Congratulations. The man of the series totally deserves. We'll never ever forget Headingley or indeed the World Cup final. And so that's the England man in the match, man the series. And Steve Smith is man of the series?

Okay, then he's just standing here. We're going to talk to him with the medallion around his neck. Steve, well, well, congratulations to you. I mean, you've overcome some demons there and you've had a fabulous series. Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, I'm proud of the way I played throughout this series and helped Australia

bring the own home. We came here to win the ashes and unfortunately we weren't able to do that in this test match. We were outplayed by a very good England outfit and, yeah, not the sort of fairy tale finish we were after, but, you know, that's cricket and it's been just an amazing series of cricket.

It's ebden flowed throughout and it's been great to be involved in. For you personally, when you flew here, under pressure and everything else, how do you feel now? Now it's actually all over and you've done what you've done. Are you going, oh, I'm tired and I need a rest mentally and physically. I tried to give it one last crack today, but I've been a bit crook the last few days and I'm just worn out now. I just need a little bit of a mental and physical freshen up.

to go for the summer. Yeah, and you can move on from here. You feel like lots of stuff has been put away and you just carry on now and you're back. Yeah, that's it. You know, I've loved the last four and a half months here in England with the World Cup and the Ashes. It's been great fun.

I've loved every minute of it, back playing for Australia. And, yeah, like I said, I'm proud of the way I've been able to play and help Australia take the own home. And, yeah, hopefully I can have a rest up now and have a big summer back. I was outside up there actually when you walked off when you were dismissed today and I looked around virtually everybody on their feet applauding. I thought

you know from where you were at Edgebaston for instance when we spoke and how did you feel when he walked off here today did you did you notice that? Yeah I did I noticed a good applause and put my hand up for a second and sort of said thank you yeah it's really nice the reception I got today and yeah it's been as I said just a great couple a month. I've loved it and yeah really proud of what I guess this group's been able to achieve as well. We're already planning how we're going to get you about in two and a half

year's time. There's a warning, all right? We're working on it now. Thank you for all the entertainment you've given us this summer. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. Steve Smith, there we go. Shaking Michael Vaughn by the hand. What a ridiculous series he had, averaging over 100. But not so today. He was gotten rid of in the

20s today. 26, I think of from memory. Caught at that leg slit position. We're planning, aren't we? We can We can't let him do this again. Well, we found his weakness. It took a while. There'll be about as many leg slips as you can have in Australia, two and a half years' time.

Oh, he's been a joy to watch. I mean, from where he was at Edgebaston, that first test innings that he produced at Edgebass. I know he's produced the double at old trap. He played great here at the 80, the 90-odd at Lords. That first innings at Edgebast, and that was special. His team were gone, 122 for 8. And the way that he shepherded, Peter Siddland,

just manoeuvreed the ball around, and just played with so much control under the pressure of what he'd been through with that crowd booing him. You know, that for me was one of the great test match innings and, you know, he's been a joy to watch. He's an artist. I said that a few weeks ago,

he's just a player that can get the cues from the bowler quicker than anybody else. He just sees the gaps and tries to hit the ball into the gaps he using his hands and he uses his wrists and he uses his maneuvers out in the middle. I love watching him back. I really do. admire his determination, his skill, his hard work, the amount of balls

a hits in practice. You know, it's just a lesson to everyone that to get to that standard. Of course, he's a gift, you know, he's been given a gift, but it's about maximising that talent that you have, and he maximizes absolutely every ounce. Even though he's a great player, he works as hard as any player. And it's just a lesson to those that don't have that talent. You know what? Get out there and work hard, get in the next face, lots of balls, and, you know, you never

know where you can end up, because you've got to remember when you're, he first started test match cricket in Sydney all those years ago, 10-11, he was a leg-spinner batting at 7. And we all watched him about and went, oh, who's this? So it's just proof to everyone that if you've got the real tenacity to really work hard and put yourself through a lot of

strains, probably in the practice, and you know, face all the bowlers at their best in the nets and are willing to do that, get hit a few times, work the opposition out. He's proof that you can improve and he's an incredible play. He's the best test match player that I've seen. And that's the best applause I can.

Yeah, well that's a compliment. And you're right. I mean, he was playing really because he looks a bit like Shane Warren and they were looking for another Shane Warren, wasn't there? That was basically it. Yeah, so Jack Leach, you've got hope. You can end up at the top of the order Jack. Absolutely. Jay Roots finished his round of interviews now. I can see him over there. If you're just joining us, England of won here

by 135 runs by the way. One within four days and we're going to be on air for another 14 minutes or so while we just bring you a bit more reaction. I haven't spoken to Tim Payne yet. The Australia captain. He's actually up on the podium at the moment and then not quite sure what happens with the trophy given that

it's two two and the side that retain the ashes have lost the match I can't imagine it's going to be too much the way of fireworks going off and the usual sort of celebration from that perspective it'll be rather a muted affair won't it? I think it's hard you know but Australia have come here to

take those ashes back and they're doing so but you know I think Justin Langran's team will be absolutely gutted that they produced you know their worst performance of the whole series at the last hurdle and You know, Tim Payne is a great guy, what he's done with his team over the course of the last year under a huge amount of pressure, difficult circumstance, he deserves a huge amount of credit. He got a few things wrong this week.

But I think if you analyse the whole series, before this week, you know, I said Australia were the better team. Of course they have been over the course of five games. But England this week proved to everybody that there is a lot of talent in that team, you know, and they can become a good test match team if they're willing to just do the hard yards and do the disciplines for longer periods, particularly with the batting hand. That's been the problem for England, is that every now and again

they switch off with the bat, they try and play an expansive game and it just allows the opposition in. What did they did from the second inning is at heading? They just dug in. Even at Old Travelder thought they batted with a lot of discipline. It was just the bowling that let them down.

Old Traffered on those first two days in difficult conditions. But this test match team, I'm absolutely confident if they really buy into a structure of what they're about and buy into a method of play, They can be very, very successful going for.

When you've got Ben Stokes, Jopher, Archer, Joe Root, Joss Butler, you know, Jack Leach, that'll do him. The world are good today. Forfe. On the last day, Baldok, I don't think he was the first to admit that. I think he can bowl better than that. But he's got a forfer. He's contributed.

He's contributed with the bat again. You know, all these buildings are Sam Curran coming into the side. You know, they've got a lot of talent. Hollis Stone's waiting in him. Saki Mahmood, you've got so many talented players out of this circle that if England really commit to test match cricket and the players commit, the captain really drive. it forward with the new coach. I'm convinced they can be a very, very successful test match

team in all facets of the world, all the different conditions, but they really have to focus. They can't switch off. They can't just arrive and play. They've got to have real planning meetings, real thoughtfulness about who they're picking and why and what they're going to be structuring the team like. And, you know, certain aspects in the world when they go and play, they might have to change the formation slightly. But ultimately, they've got to train these brains to get big runs. They have to train the brains to get 400. 500 because in Australia two and a half years time

they're not going to win with scores of 294 and 329 that's not competitive with the cooker ball in Australia they have to become a batting unit that knows how to get 450 plus in the first innings Tim Payne's just about wrapping up his interviews I think up there on the podium he'll come and talk to us

in a second I'll be interested to see how he does feel about the situation I say he's regained the ashes he did that of course last week at Old Trafford but they have lost here and he was absolutely determined that they were going to win this series and it hasn't happened and he's talking there

just alongside this Waterford crystal replica, although it's a big replica of the actual ashes urn and I imagine that's going to be presented to him in a moment. I'm not quite sure how it's going to work. Joe Root is still lingering so I think maybe it is going to be sort of both captain's hands on that

crystal urn. We shall see both teams are still down here with us. A lot of crowd have remained here too in fact as the floodlights are beating down and just waiting for the Australian captain to come along and tell us what he thinks about this series. It feels strange situation, is it?

I mean, he's got the ashes and yet he's kind of not quite what he wanted. Well, you know what? I'd advise him, enjoy it. You know, you're the lucky captain. We've all been, you know, very lucky that I've had the chance to lead our countries, whether it's Australia and England, if you get the chance to lift up the urn and lift it with pride, you've just got to enjoy it because Tim Payne's team,

Tim Payne's team have got the end on the way back to Australia and he's been the leader of that so I'm looking at both sets of players and this is the best moment the series is done and in half an hour's time they'll both be in the dressing room and they'll be having a chat with each other and they'll be having a beer

and they'll just kind of reminisce of the whole series and over time they won't realize it yet but I reckon some of these players that have played against each other have become really good friends that's what happens in Nash's series you create friendships with the opposing team I look at my friendships now with Shane Warren Ricky Ponting

Adam Gilchrist Glenn McGraw who's been working with us You know what, Ashes series do? They're the most treasuredise series of them all But at the end of it, you look each other in the eye And you say, you know what? Well, they're celebrating there The champagne courts are going And there is some bunting flying up

And they are raising more than a smile They're jumping up and down And spraying the champagne around As Australia have indeed retained the ashes That's what's half of what they came to do They haven't won the series That has been shared but the ashes remains in Australia's hands

and I suppose if you don't actually win it outright then that's good enough so there's lots of champagne being squirted around on there always seems rather a waste to me but that's what they came to do I'm sure Malcolm Conn from the Cricket Australia will shepherd his captain over here in a second have a quick word with him at the end of this series

he's got the little urn there the little replica as well so he's got the crystal he's got the replica and we'll just try and catch his eye and see if we can just get a quick word with Australia's captain has got the urn in his hands and I wonder if I can just know they're going off on a lap I think they're going to go and see their supporters down at the far end so we'll see if we get a chance to get it back Alex Stewart's up there I think in the in the commentary box what did you what have you gleaned out what you've been hearing down here Alex it's a bit of a stranger on for the

Australians but they did they did muster a lot of jumping about and you know they're obviously you know they came here not to lose the ashes and they haven't done Yeah, and we should congratulate them as well because I think, yes, it's finished too all, but they had two very, very convincing victories and but for Ben Stokes' brilliance at Headingley, they would have won the series. So it's fair that they are keeping the ashes for the time being,

but hopefully in two and a bit years' time, rolls will be reversed. But from an England point of view, what Michael said there, about making sure that the attention of detail and test match planning now takes place, and they build on that with plans to ideally, regain that little earn.

Yeah, we're wandering off behind them, actually. They're going down to go and say thank you to all of their supporters, a lot of whom have been through the whole tour, actually, supporting them all the way. And so they're standing there, those that remain applauding the Australian team as they head off in their direction to go and say thank you. I saw a quick glimpse of Trevor Bayliss there, not much of one,

but he was around. I mean, I suppose really the serious stuff starts now, doesn't it? As far as finding his successor is concerned, And, Alec, I haven't heard your name mentioned the other day. Yeah, I think there's plenty of names being mentioned. But, you know, the important thing is that whoever does come in, you know, has those plans, has a structure in place and is allowed to then move the England test team forward while still obviously concentrating on the white ball cricket.

That's absolutely crucial. They've seen how Australia have planned. I think I've got Glenn McGrawal alongside me as well. And I think if you said to Justin Langer, you said to Payne or whoever, would you rather win the World Cup? I'd rather win the ashes. They'd rather have kept the ashes, I think. They've won the World Cup five times, I think, whereas England hadn't won the World Cup previously.

So it's vital that England put all their resources into trying to win the World Cup. They've done that, and now they can revert back to trying to get back where they want to be, which is the number one test side in the world. Would it be a job that you'd want? I mean, is it appealing with England where they are at the moment? Honestly, I think it's impossible for anyone to answer that at the moment

until one is they see what that job looks like, what it entails, what the responsibilities are. And then you go from there. But first and foremost, Ashley Giles has got big decisions to make over the coming weeks, if not month, or two months, whatever it may be. And then you go from there. But whoever it is, they've got to make sure that he's a very, very best person with the best plans and is allowed to do the job

as that individual believes is the right way of doing it. Let's even catch Tim Payne just for the last time. Don't drop that crystal for goodness sake. Well, Tim, you've seen it through. We didn't win the game, but you do have that earn. Yeah, that's what we came here to get. So, as I said, we knew the rules around the ashes and a drawer is good enough when you're playing,

when you've already won them before. So, yeah, we knew what we had to do, and we've come here and mission accomplished, which is fantastic. Did it have run out of gas a bit here? I mean, it's been very compressed schedule, isn't it? No, I don't think we ran out of gas. I just think we were outplayed, we didn't catch as well as we should have

when you give a team 30 chances to score runs some pretty good players are going to take them given your time again would you have batted no honestly wouldn't have as I said I felt we we bowled well enough on day one to bowl them out for under 200 we just didn't take our chances had we have done that

the wicket was really good even today to still bat on and as I said England just outplayed us is going well it's a big step to everything that's happened within Australia over the last year or so do you feel that you can now actually just move forward and Steve Smith has faced it, is completely reintegrated and backed itself. Is this quite a big step, actually, for Australian cricket, do you think? No, not really.

I think it sort of started before this Ashes series. I think there was a bit of a bleed up even towards the World Cup where the guys were backing around the group. But, yeah, I think from where we've come from as a cricket team to make the World Cup of the semi-finals to regain the ashes is a really big achievement for where this group has come from and what this group's been through. so we couldn't be proud of the way we went about it and the way we've played our cricket.

Thanks to talk to us, Tim. Thanks for all your help over the last few months. Congratulations to you. Tim Payne's very, hopes you in two and a half years' time. Off he goes with his baggy green. He doesn't give much away Glenn McGrath, as he, Tim Payne, but I've got a tinge of disappointment there, I think is the way it's finished.

Yeah, and he won the toss. He elected a bowl. He's standing by his decision, whether it's a right one or wrong one. sort of history shows that it's always tough to chase on the fourth innings here. But if they probably bowled a little bit better in that first morning,

if they took their catches, it could have been different. So, yeah, you've got to be, you've got a standby decision. He's done that. He'd be disappointed. They've probably had a few chances through this, this summer to win the ashes.

But, yeah, I think he'll still have nightmares in respects to DRS, but they'll have to come up with a process that's going to work a bit better for them. But yeah, they've retained the Ashes. That was the first goal. They did that in Old Trafford. So there's been quite a few positives, but there'll still be a tinge of disappointment. The TMS podcast at the Oval for the fifth test of the ashes. So thank you for being with us throughout this most memorable, dramatic of summers. The international schedule

may be over, but don't miss the exciting counter championship finale with Somerset and Essex going head to head for the title. Every ball of every counter game is live via the cricket section at the BBC Sport website and the app. Next Saturday, join us on Five Live Sports Extra for T20 Finals Day at Edgebaston. We're on air from 1045, and we'll speak to you then. Goodbye. Available every day during every test.

This is the TMS podcast at the Ashes from BBC Radio 5 Live.