Test Match Special - The rise of women's cricket in India with Mithali Raj

Episode Date: July 17, 2025

Alison Mitchell speaks to former India women's captain Mithali Raj about how much women's cricket has evolved in India. Raj tells us about her journey into the sport, how the media coverage of women's cricket has changed and hosting the upcoming ODI World Cup. She also shares her thoughts on what needs to be done to ensure the women's game continues to thrive in India and the impact cricket could have in the Olympics.Plus former England cricketer Ebony Rainford-Brent and former IPL player Abhishek Jhunjhunwala tell us about the significance of the Women’s Premier League, contracts and the opportunities for female cricketers in India.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters, and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. This podcast is brought to you by Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. With Wise, you can send, spend, and receive up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Plus, Wise won't add hidden fees to your transfer. Whether you're buying

souvenirs with pesos in Puerto Vallata or sending euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and Cs apply. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Alison Mitchell and welcome to a special episode of the TMS podcast where we look at the rise of women's cricket in India.

We'll hear an in-depth interview with former India captain Matali Raj about her journey into cricket and how the game has developed over the years. Plus, former England cricketer Ebony Rainford Brent and former IPL player Abysheikh Jungenwala tell us about the significance of the Women's Premier League,

contracts and the opportunities for female cricketers in India. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. We're going to discuss the rise of women's cricket in India, what with the success of the WPL and with the country preparing to host the upcoming ODI World Cup. And who better to chat with to gauge where the game has come from and where it is yet to go than former India captain Matali Raj. Now, her international career spanned from 1999 to 2022 and she remains the lead. leading ODI run scorer in the women's game. She was honoured during the England India men's test match at Lords by being invited to

ring the famous five minute bell on day four. And once bell ringing duties were over, I sat down with Matali and asked her what her memories were first of all of playing at Lords. I think of course the one which still is pretty fresh in the memories is the 2017 World Cup final at Lords and I think even the first game here at Lords just after the merger with BCCI in the year 2006-7 I think that was something was like I was really wanting to look forward to getting a game at Lords and you know getting to play at Lords walking through that long room all that what you read you're able to you know go through that as a player and you

know it's it's a very different feeling to play at Lords to be as a player and especially during that World Cup final looking at the stadium being filled and you know it's a very different experience yeah what will it be like then for this current India team who have an ODI at Lords coming up in just a week or so's time I think for most of them it would be their first time at Lords and they should cherish that experience if they get a time to go and look at the museum here the Lord's Museum read a little bit about the history of the game played here and all those, you know, the legends of the game, men and women as well. And to just enjoy playing at the stadium because not very frequently that we get

to play at lots, especially the Indian team because it depends on the tournaments that you play in a year or your series to England. But for many of them it's the first time to enjoy being in this historic ground. And what do you make of the T20 series that's happened and the way this current India team are performing? Well I think they've played really well in fact a format that Indian team struggled for a few years in the past with the inception of WPL we've seen a lot of players come through the ranks getting another go at representing their country and especially in this format they've really done well to win a series in England I think credit goes to

all of them, Smriti had a very good run in the T20 series. She herself has said that she's not someone who would see herself as a T20 player, but to score runs in England in this format. It really helped Indian team also to win a T20 series on the soil. Really special achievement. The India women will have a chance to play a test match at Lords as well. I mean, how big an occasion will that be? They are very lucky.

It's a special occasion. It's one thing to play a whiteball cricket, one day cricket at Lords, but test match, a format that all cricketers river, it's the oldest format and, you know, you get to play at Lords. I think what can be more special than that? And this bunch of players, I mean, they're lucky to get to play a test match at Lords. And you only just missed out on being on the honours boards that now exist at Lords because you got into the 90s, didn't you hear in an idea? Yes, yes. I remember that game. you know I think I was about 94 or 96 not out and 24 yeah and we were chasing about 200 plus at that time that was the highest total that Indian team chased so yes there is now even you ask me man there would have been another 10 or 15 more runs to chase I would have probably

got to that three digit mark and get my name on the honours board but all certain then I think it was when you think back it was good to play at lots to get an experience to go out there in the middle, walk through that dressing room and it just makes every player very special. It's amazing that you've had those experiences for sure. Can I take you back to the start of your career in Matali? Because India women's cricket was in a very different place then. All women's cricket was.

Can you give us a sense of what life was like as a, well, first of what as a junior cricketer and actually then making that step into the international arena and what life was as an international Well, see, for a young girl in India to pursue a sport, let alone cricket, was very difficult in itself because unless you get support from your parents, it's very difficult in Indian society to take up a sport as a profession way back in the 90s. And to be very honest, when I started playing cricket, the academy where I wanted to join where my brother was playing, I wasn't allowed to enroll because there was not a single girl. So the coach, despite identifying a little bit of potential in me, he said we cannot enroll this girl. So do find another camp which has some girls playing. So I moved to my school where there's a mix of boys and girls playing and I joined that camp. Until I graduated to the senior level, not much I knew about the Indian women's cricket team,

talking about the legends like Shanta, Diana Adulji or Sandiagarwal. So when I started playing the senior level, that's when a lot of my seniors, in a way, educated me through the experience, okay, this is the player, she's been playing for so long. So that's how I got a bit of peek into the previous players and the current players in the 90s. And I made my debut in England, in England tour in 1999. And I was just sharing with you that time we were not under BCCC or not under ICCCC and And I came here at Lodz as a tourist because I told my senior I want to go to Lodz and take some pictures.

So, you know, I've visited the museum. So I've seen that 1983 World Cup there and a bit of pictures here outside. I think that was a special series because we won the first time we won an ODI series in England. The captain was Chandra Kanta Kor. And it was there much media coverage of the fact you won a series? in England then? I don't think so. You've seen anybody at that point of time.

The first time I've ever seen a media coverage was in 2005, where we came back from the World Cup and then we had a bit of press conference. So that's when I've seen a little bit of journalists wanting to cover women's cricket. We made the final then. Yeah, we made the final. And even despite that, the years after it, we didn't really have that sort of a coverage which you think, okay, you've achieved a level as an Indian team, you've been a runners-up in the World Cup, and you would want people to write about women's cricket, but it took a long, long time.

I think it, maybe 2017, until then, we really didn't have that sort of coverage, whether it's newspaper. But yes, the digital media was relatively new in 2017. I think that really doubled up the sort of coverage, the sport women's cricket needed. And today, all around, I think the boards are definitely doing their bit to promote women's cricket within the country through the grassroots level to get the domestic structure a little more stronger. Having those leagues, like now we have WPL, WBBL, you know, the 100, even the Caribbean League so everybody is trying to have their own league so that the

girls get to more opportunities you can unearth more potential identify young players even the under 19 World Cup I think two seasons ICC there has done a great job in having that work because that's that's like you know in a way you're graduating the under 19 so that's how you get to see even in the men's cricket they go on to play the under 19 World Cup they get into the senior level so they are not overwhelmed to when they make their debut for country, like how we were, you know, when I see myself as a 16-year-old and then when Shafali made her debut, there was a vast difference in our personality.

I was, I was lost, you know, I was so nervous. It took me the entire series to get over, like, you know, I'm praying for India and this is the stage, despite not having the media coverage, whereas Shafali, when she made a debut, there was a digital presence under BCCI, there was media coverage. It has its own pros and cons. You know, you're always minutely judged. But the current lot get into that level already prepared. You know, they know what to expect.

They know the demands of playing international level. And with the professional setup that now they have with the match fees, equal match fees, and you're getting... At an international level, isn't it? Yes, at the international level. and the number of games you play in a year is much more. So everything is, there's been growth in everything. So that's a very good thing, yeah.

So how did you see that shift happened? First of all, if we go back to, say, up to 2005 in that World Cup, it was the Women's Cricket Association running the women's game. And then the ICC took it over, and that's when the individual nation's boards took women's cricket under their doubt. So BCCI started running the women's game. Was there a sort of overnight change for you in that sense? I don't know, the way you travelled match fees or anything like that.

So up until that point, what had you received payment-wise to play for India? I think we didn't receive any payment. There was absolutely no payment. It was just, I was pretty much emptying my dad's pocket, you know, to play for India because we had to buy our own equipment and try and organize our own training sessions. There are times when we train on matting wickets and then we get just a week to practice on the turf and then you're traveling. Like say if you're traveling to New Zealand, you don't get enough time to get over the jet lag. Within two days, you're playing an ODI series.

Whereas coming under BCC, I think you go ahead, a week ahead, you get acclimatized, you get a few practice games. And I think in terms of the skill and the preparation, I think there's been a huge, and it has only helped the players getting put in in a good hotels because the players then don't really have to look after everything under IWCC we had to look after everything on our own yes of course the association was there but you know there's always that you have to look at your own back like you know you look after your own self whereas under BCCI under ICC you know everything is organized you get the best of facilities

Even as injuries, when it comes to injuries, I got injured in 2005 just before the World Cup and it took me years to get through it. When we came under BCCI, we were accessed to National Cricket Academy where, you know, at that point of time has the best physios and trainers. You stay there, it's a residential and you get through your training session, your rehab. In a way, we were again educated like what to do when you're in your pre-season, when you're injured and how do you do you do? your rehab, how do you do your strength work, so it got better. So that is another plus the injured players are able, are being taken care of. And when it comes to contracts. I was going to say, do you remember the first time you? Yeah, it was in 2016, I think there was a talk about the contracts. That was a big thing for us back then because until then there was no guarantee that

you know, even playing for India, you can look after your finances on it. You don't have to work because we were all employed with Indian Railways. But all of you, is that the... Most of the team, because that was the only institution which gave jobs to women cricketers in India. And if you're from an affluent family, you can manage to play however long because you don't really have to think about how you're going to run your house. But if you're not, then obviously you would think, like, what next? Where am I going to earn money to, you know?

So with the contracts, what happened was, there was that safety for the players they know that okay I can play and I can also earn you know that was a huge thing for us back then so if you had to chart so it's 20 years since the BCCI took over the running of the game if you had to chart then particular moments in time that has seen the game you know take those significant steps forward with the contracts be the first one and then what would be other particular points in time after that I think that women's Premier League because it gives another opportunity

for the players who didn't get enough during the domestic circuit or didn't had a lean patch to again get picked by the franchisee to do well in the women's premium league because the selectors are again having the eyes on who's potentially doing well who's having a good season and then you can have another go at the Indian team for the young players what happens is India is a very big country so the selectors cannot go like to every state and identify players and sometimes the players are in a weaker side they don't get to show their skill.

Whereas the franchises, they have the scouts. They send to every part of the country. They pick players who are raw talented. They pick players who've been not seen before and they get an opportunity to women's Premier League. And even players like say, Asha Joy, she made her debut quite late. I mean, you don't get to see, you know,

someone making debut at 34, 33, 34 or in the 30s. but that's what Women's Premier League is about and with that what happened was the domestic players who think that even when we talk about women's cricket since there's not earlier there was not much money but there is now and it is only going to grow in that

factor all these parents are very keen that they're young children young kids girls get into the sport and the first thing they say like I want my girl play WPL. And that's a real shift. Yeah, that's a huge shift. Culturally, socially about wanting their daughters to play. And they're actively involved in sending them to the best academies. They're trying to get mentors on board because a few of the parents reached out to me. We want the girl to be

mentored. We want her to play a good level, play women's Premier League. I think overall you see it has also helped the girls get enough support from the family. Now it does not look down upon it's like it's it's a profession it's a sport and everybody are keen to get their children get the girls to play cricket i think that's a huge huge shift even if you don't get to play for india you get to play one of the franchises that is equivalent to what you get to play for india according to the parents i still feel playing for india playing for your country is the top notch but um not everybody gets to play for india there's the 15 players so outside in the wPL is what that

90 players. Outside of that, what's the landscape for players who don't make the WPL and is there payment for those players domestically? Is that part of the structure or is the professionalism? Yeah, I think when we came under BCCI we started with the match fees and the match fees also you know it extended to the domestic players. You play domestic games you get a certain amount like you know that's the match fees so it's not like the the domestic players are also well taken care of. There is pension for the cricketers who retire. BCCC does give pension as well. So, BCCSI, you know, has been looking after the players quite well,

even the former cricketers, I would say. Yes, the domestic structure is in such a way that we have the under 15, under 16, 19, we have under 23, between 19 and the seniors, so that it's not a huge shift and then you have the senior level. And since we are also keen to have test matches, like BCCI does organize one-off test every series home series so we have the red ball as well now in the domestic structure to give a feel of what it is to play with the red ball the day's game and yeah they also have these camps for players who are not selected in

the under 19 or the senior team or in WPL but are potentially identified by the by BCCI and the selectors are worked upon so they have the zonal camps as well so they pick players there's a lot of camps around the year as well so if you're a player that's missed out on the WPL you're a youngster and you aspire to play in the WPL at what age might you earn your first contracts of employment to play cricket or is it match fees at that state level see state level you know even the under 19s get match fees it's every level you play you get some amount as a match fee it differs of course because of the levels that you play but everybody get paid it's a professional sport now in

India and when it comes to WPL yes you have the capped players you have a certain bracket you start from there and uncapped players a certain bracket there is no limit or there is no particular thing that you know okay she's played a senior level so you need to pick her you can pick a player who's a 16 year old who's relatively two years into cricket if she is good if you think that she serves a purpose for your franchisee the franchisees definitely pick young players like I was particularly impressed with Camille need that a youngster left-hand batter who's of course been part of the under 19 World Cup winning team but look at her approach

getting to play for Mumbai Indians at one of the big stage in India in women's Premier League and she comes out and she just gives a good back and hits a And I was like, and when I had a chat with her, she was so outgoing and she was so good to talk. But if I put myself in her in 1999, a 16 year old, I would be opening my mouth. I would be too shy to talk, too nervous, to, you know, understand the platform that I'm on. But she was so good. It looked like she was prepared for it. Do you think that's a generational thing because this generation have grown up simply with social media full stop?

So even promoting themselves, they used to being on Instagram and being out of that. even before they actually, you know, step into the big spotlight of cricket? I think, of course, social media does play a role, but having a structure, like you have the under-19 World Cup, that has already given her that exposure to international, to the World Cup stage. And then, you know, the Women's Premier League, you are rubbing shoulders with the who and who of the international circuit,

whether the overseas players or your own role models that you see in the Indian people. team you're playing along with them you watch them how they carry themselves all these things I mean as a youngster you tend to absorb it I think it prepares them for the big stage when it comes to this India team then looking ahead with the World Cup that's coming up in India I mean I was at the 2013 World Cup and you will have your memories of that as well and how different it's going to be now off the back of the WPL just with the awareness the crowds what are you expecting

I think I would expect a full crowd for every India game. In fact, not just for India game even for the other teams as well. Because earlier people would only know about, say, the Indian players. Now with the WPL, they know the other overseas players. So they would have their own fan following in India and all of them would turn up to watch them play for their own country. And World Cup is a big stage for any team. And with the way Indian team has done so far with the T20 series win, I'm sure a lot of people would also want to turn up to, you know, motivate or inspire or be there for the Indian team to do well in the World Cup. And, you know, having a World Cup at home, the pressure

is very different. Do you think they're well placed to do well this World Cup? Could they even win it? Is it going to be their time? Well, I think every team would come prepared for the World Cup. Playing in a bilateral series is different to playing in a World Cup because you have three or five games where you're playing the same opponent you come prepared for the same set of bowlers or the batters or a team but in the World Cup you have different teams different plans it's different days to play different venues to play so that's a different ball game altogether but I would say that

you know it will be a good fight because even South Africa has done pretty well in the one-day format Australia's has been doing well. Indian team also has done the last two years when it comes to the one-day format they've been doing very well. That's their format. So it's going to be interesting. And finally to wrap up, when talk about the rise of the India women's game, WPL is established. I mean, will it grow? What do you see is the next step? Because there's always another step that can be taken. What's the most pressing do you think?

I think probably the next step is to add a couple of more teams to WPL because there are many good players who get left out with just the five teams. When I'm talking about the uncapped players, even the domestic capped players as well, give them more opportunities. I think that would be the next step. And of course, you know, winning the World Cup and cricket is in Olympics, LA 2028. another chance to get a medal for the country because Olympics is the ultimate, you know, I know we have the World Cups, but since cricket is into Olympics, the medal in Olympics is a huge thing back at home. So, yeah, there are a lot of opportunities for the current team years. It's an exciting time. Matali, great to speak to you. Thanks so much for joining us.

Thank you. Well, that's former India captain, Matali Raj, speaking with me. Alongside me now is former India First Class and IPL cricketer Abyshecheng Wala and former England World Cup winner and ECB board member Ebony Rainford, Brent. Abishake, I mean, there are sort of touch points, aren't there? Leading up to where we are now and Matali mentioned there. 2006 BCCI takes over the running of the women's game.

She identified the 2017 World Cup final as a really important turning point with all eyeballs on that women's team at that time and the rise of social media and live streaming. 2022, there were the equal match fees announced for internationals. And of course, 2023, where she leapt you straight away, the advent of the WPL. And the game was yearning for it worldwide. And the BCCI launched it then at a time when they knew it would be commercially viable.

I was looking up the BCCI accounts. And for 2023 and 2024, and this would be, I guess, from broadcast revenue and title sponsorship, The WPL turned a surplus of 377 crore in its first year. It's a tournament which is standing on its own two feet. Absolutely. I think, and I'm going back 20 years when we were playing first class cricket and I saw the likes of Jhulen, Nuitali and all. I mean, you've got to give a lot of credit to them. They stuck to the task and I have seen them how they used to travel and there was no match fee,

nothing, just the sheer passion and love. And they gave it all and they kept giving it all. I'm glad it all came through and you know they're all been rewarded and now they all find I mean bearing the fruits of their hard work but yeah it's been a struggle for and even for I mean I would say for a lot of men as well at that point playing domestic cricket there was hardly any money in India I mean look back 20 years and I see now the kind of money which is slowing in IPL leagues around the world and international cricket when we were playing cricket we were getting paid I think 160 pounds a day to play

first class cricket which was if you think about it is that absolutely nothing. So we all started playing and we all started doing it for the love of the game more than anything else. And you know, there's been a massive transformation in the last, especially for women's game. If you see in the last five or seven years, I wouldn't even go 20 years. In the last five or seven years, the women transformation in women cricket has been exceptional. And it's only going to get better and better. And just before I bring in Ebony, when it comes to the structure of the domestic game,

I kept asking me entirely about contracts, but the contracts only apply to the top 15 players or 17 over many, the BCCI Award, which is the top internationals. And I have to say that beneath that, I've always assumed that eventually women's domestic cricket will become contractual like we see in Australia, like we see in England, just having that professional domestic setup. But that's not actually the case in the men's game even in India, is it? No, absolutely not. I mean, you don't have any contracts with any state. Few states, I think, they try to do this, try to bring in a structure. But for some reason, it doesn't work.

I'll tell you why it doesn't work. Because a lot of times, a lot of players are picked mid-season because on the basis of the performance in club cricket. So India's structure is very different than here, which you pick players from academy. But India, you play club cricket and it's, again, a lot of club cricketers are paid cricketers. It's a professional set-up completely. So if you do well, mid-season, there is an opportunity for you to get picked for playing first-class cricket. And I think that's one of the main reason there is no contract structure. Because if you bring in a contrast structure, then you stuck to that 20-25 people who are contracted. So you can't really bring in a new player.

And new players can be found all over India, as Natali was alluding to, and as we see in the men's game, and beginning to happen in the women's game as well. Ebony, what impact are you seeing that this rise in opportunities and the direction of travel of Indian cricket, the impact that is having for other nations? I think the global game should be worried. In a sense of, we've seen, you know, you look at the game of cricket and what India in the men's game have been able to achieve. And I'm talking about dominating global rights, you know, building a tournament, which is pretty much shifted the whole of franchise cricket and producing players who are constantly at the top of world cricket. And let's face it, I think when it came to the women's game, India had been behind for a long time. But it was always bubbling underneath because they had talent. I've lost track of the population size, but billions of people who are high quality who could mostly step up in terms of all you had to do is put in the infrastructure, build a,

sort of commercial model and have success on the pitch and it's going to explode. So I think once the success happened around India, getting to the final with England, I think that set off the alarm bells, BCCI, okay, let's get the structure in place. We know that there's going to be talent because we've got so a cricket-loving nation put in the infrastructure. And the reason why I say people should be worried is I'm sure you'll touch on some of the structures that we were talking about a moment ago. But the amounts of players that there's going to be is going to create a competitive advantage.

The broadcast rights is creating a healthy pressure. You know, I talk to players who've gone into WPL, etc. And the standards are raising so fast. And that pressure and that excitement is creating kind of this bubble pot of players. Everyone wants to be there. And so you're going to just have this acceleration where I wouldn't be surprised in if three to five years time, we start seeing India overtake everybody and start winning the T20 World Cups, 50 World Cups.

You were talking about the speed at which their scores are increasing. We're looking at their fielding increasing. Their curve could be exponential because of everything that exists within their game. And to wrap up Aveshake, if I was to say what next? Matali has mentioned expand the WPL, win the upcoming World Cup, but winning Olympic gold was something that she really stressed.

Yeah, I think they will be looking at that because that will be a game changer for women cricket especially. And I think Matali is absolutely right. WPL needs to be expanded. and I think it will happen very soon. It won't be too long than BCCI looks into it. As long as it's commercially viable, they'll do it. It's all about them at the end of the day.

It makes some good money. Yeah, it comes down to the numbers, as you would know. They're going to get a decent amount from the broadcasters. And the more money come from the broadcasters, the more is going to go trickle down to the players. And that's what we all want to see. Well, that was former IPL player, Abyshech, Junjumwala, and ex-England International Ebony Rainford Brent.

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