Test Match Special - The tour is cancelled – so what next?

Episode Date: December 7, 2020

Jonathan Agnew is joined by Michael Vaughan after England’s tour to South Africa is cancelled after positive Covid-19 tests. South African journalist Firdose Moonda discusses the implications for South Africa – will any teams still be confident enough to tour the cash-strapped country? And what does it mean for the players, many of whom are already showing signs of ‘bubble fatigue’?

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from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Jonathan Agnew. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast, and Michael Vaughn is here with me. Usually we do this podcast after a match is finished. But unfortunately today, we're speaking to you because an entire tour has been called off. England's one-day international series against South Africa

has been abandoned without a ball being bowled due to positive COVID tests. Now, it's important to get all the information across here, so bear with me while I take you on a timeline. England landed in South Africa on the 7th,000, 17th of November, all their COVID tests were negative on arrival. The next day, one South African player tested positive and two close contacts were also put into isolation. On the 20th of November, two days later, another home player tested positive and their warm-up match was cancelled. Those two players

returned negative tests a week later, and the T20 series goes ahead, which England won 3-0. Then, on December the 3rd, another South African player tests positive. The next day's first one-day international is postponed. The second match should have been on Sunday. That was delayed after two members of the team hotel staff returned positive tests. England then had another round of testing, and for the first time, two members of their touring party returned positive tests. An extra match that was penciled in for today was postponed,

and then this afternoon, the announcement that we all expected, the tour is off. However, there are still lots of questions about how the virus got into what was supposed to be a biosecure environment, how and when the England team can return home, and whether anyone will agree to play cricket in South Africa if there are question marks over biosecurity.

Now, in a moment, we'll hear from the South African journalist for Dusmunda, but Michael Vaughn, where do we start with this? It was never going to be straightforward, I don't think. No, I mean, if you go back over the course of the last six months, it's remarkable that it's taken this long for this kind of scenario to come to the four. There'll be some nervous England players because of the fact

they've had to be tested again. Those two were not too sure which two in the camp had the positive test. They'll be hoping that the next test comes back negative and it allow them to travel home. Obviously, if those two are still positive and there may be one or two others, if the

pair have been around the squad which they have been, there will be some nervous England players and management thinking, wait a minute, if it comes back positive again, they're going to have to isolate in South Africa before they can travel anywhere. And there's some that's going over to Australia playing the Big Bash.

So you can imagine if they have to do that, they'll have to do 10 days in South Africa, then another 14 days quarantine in Australia before they can play in the Big Bash. So worry in times for the England squad. Just wonder if people got complacent after all those matches were staged underventry last summer here.

Well, I think, you know, we look back at the East. BCB in the summer and it was a military operation that worked fantastically well. Again, we're not in South Africa, so it's kind of hard for us to comment. But the hearsay is that it's not been quite as military, it's not been quite as strict. Well, they've been playing golf an hour away, apparently. Yeah, and that's the England players as well, you know, South African and England. So I think England have got to hold the hands up and say, look, they've kind of relaxed the kind of system a little bit,

but more so than it was in the UK. very difficult to kind of point the finger at anybody to say, oh, it got in because of this or got in because of that. It's just happened. And as I said, it's now a nervous few hours for those England players and management to wait for those results to come back.

I'm a bit surprised that they called the last game off just in case, you know, all the results came back negative tomorrow. They could have played on Wednesday and come back on Thursday. I think it's very important, even though it's tough and it's not easy being in the bubble.

if there was a chance of playing that last game on Wednesday because everything came back smoothly tomorrow, I would have kept that available and open. But they talk about the mental well-being of the players and obviously the physical well-being of the players have not been able to practice that much going into just a singular game. There's a little bit of me.

It just feels that maybe they could have just played that game on Wednesday if everything was fine tomorrow. But that's the big if everyone's fine, they're going to be able to go home on Thursday or players will be able to go over to Australia they're playing the big bash. If the two and maybe a few others are positive tomorrow morning, it's going to be tough times for a few of that England team.

Yeah, very true. Well, it throws up all sorts of problems for cricket in South Africa, who've been going through our own boardroom crisis, and I've been speaking to the South African journalist for Dosmunda from Crick Info, who told me this is just the latest and a whole string of problems for cricket in the country. You know, if we go back to July when South Africa hosted the innovative news, three-team competition in the middle of what was really the peak of the pandemic and they had several players pull out for COVID-related reasons, including the national coach, Mark Boucher,

who had COVID at the time. It just seems that something about the organization hasn't been really well thought through. And so hosting England in the Western Cape would have seemed like a good idea in August or September when we were starting to come out of lockdown. But we're now in a situation where cases are rising again in the Western Cape. We've narrowly escaped being declared a hotspot in this part of the country. It's also not a situation like you have in England where we've got hotels attached to the ground. There's still a little bit of a distance to travel. Players are playing golf out at Bosnia, which is an hour's drive from Newlands. And I just think a lot could have been done differently and better. The 3c20s happened, but even then there were

positive cases in the South African camp. And I think there's just a lot of concern as to how well South Africa can host a bio bubble. You know, given a real myriad of things, including that we're not a country that can afford to test professional sports people an unlimited number of times because we've got healthcare workers that need to be tested. We've got scant resources. There's a cost factor. Yeah, lots to think about. Yeah. What do you do if you're the board, though? You're a cricket South Africa, which seems to be imploding anyway. You've got no money. You've got that open window maybe of England coming and saving us millions of dollars and so on. Right. The temptation to play these games must have been huge from the board's perspective.

Definitely, but there's a huge financial incentive to play these games. So South Africa were hoping to host India for 3T20 sometime in August, which was never going to happen because that was really when the virus peaked here. And those then were taken out of the budget, and that would have been a huge amount of money. And cricket South Africa is facing massive losses in this four-year cycle, 2019 to 2020. So really, they're only hoping. of making some money were a successful tour of England and then hopefully if Australia 12, though, I mean, even that is looking quite unlikely at this stage given Australia and how they've handled the pandemic and would probably be deep into second wave territory by then. So hosting England was going to make around 4 million US dollars and the cancellation of the ODIs will result in around 2 million not being made.

And so even though they've sort of said they've postponed and it may yet take place in the four-year cycle, if you look at the fixture list and you look at what's kind of. coming up for both teams. It's very difficult to see how you will fit three ODIs in. So I think there's two things here. The one is financially cricket South Africa are in trouble. And they've also spent a lot of money trying to make this happen, testing lots of people, paying for all those tests, creating a bio bubble. And then the other is that it's possibly dent to the confidence for teams who may want to come in tour here or are scheduled to come in tour here, where they're looking at this and saying, oh, we don't know if we feel comfortable going to South Africa anymore.

And I mean, is there a blame game going on for those? I mean, I noticed the article you wrote actually that you got this, you got the email from Western Province claiming that England couldn't take responsibility for England's biosecurity because they went off and practiced on these nets that were out of bounds, so to speak. I mean, is there lots of pointing of fingers going on? I think there was a danger of that happening. So definitely earlier today we saw a little bit of tit-for-tat and the Western Province email came out. basically saying the players had gone to the nets. And the issue with that is that the nets are adjacent to a construction site, and there are construction workers at the venue pretty much throughout the day.

And we've seen them there in domestic matches and so on. So England then hit back saying, first of all, that the practice facilities they were given were, in their words, unacceptable, and that they needed to go and use the nets, and that they have then created a security corridor so that they could walk from the outfield to the nets. And kind of putting the ball back in South Africa's court, shortly after that happened

the series was then called off so I think the tit-for-tat sort of ended there I think the concern is that nobody has been able to determine how hotel staff tested positive and how a third South African player tested positive between the T20 and the ODI series because presumably no one would have been coming and going from the bubble in that period of time

not all the hotel staff are staying at the hotel so there's a significant portion who are and the ones who come into contact with the players are but some of them are not. And so I suppose, you know, we could wonder forever if, you know, somebody touched something and somebody else touched something. And I guess the other thing is there's so much about this virus that we don't know. And I think the South African Chief Medical Officer, Dr. Shueh Mungra, is a man of high integrity. And he's definitely been honest in saying, look, we understand the concerns.

We recognize the concerns. We're trying to figure this out. But no, they don't know how it's happened yet. If you're England, it's pretty terrifying, isn't it? I mean, even if you're South Africa, you're in what you think is a secure environment. and the virus is spreading amongst people who work in different areas of the hotel and players who don't come into contact with each other at all. And the implications, the possible implications, if these two tests do come back positive,

is that England could be stuck there for, well, for 10 days in total. I guess they'll backtrack it to Saturday maybe when they went into quarantine. I mean, it could look really bad for South African cricket to those who you say, including Australia, or there's also Sri Lanka and Pakistan, on to travel to you, but if that's the way the England team end up, banged up in, albeit a very nice hotel, but it's banged up nonetheless, that that's not going to get people jumping on planes to come and play? No, absolutely not.

I mean, especially if you consider the timing, so, you know, people are wanting to get home for festive season plans, but also they're players who've got Big Bash deals to honour, and they wanting to be able to travel to Australia. And I suppose it just continues to add days onto what is already a calendar where you're touring and away from home a lot of the time. So if people are having to add on two weeks at the start and a possible 10 days at the end if somebody ends up with COVID, and then perhaps two weeks quarantined when you get back to wherever you're going back to, you know, suddenly a six-week tour has become a 10- or 12-week tour and it becomes impossible. So I think that

that is definitely going to be a concern. You know, something as simple as Sri Lanka are coming to South Africa presumably over the festive period. They then return to Sri Lanka where they do to play England. And England have just had this experience in South Africa. So if anybody would be concerned about Sri Lanka coming to South Africa, it may be England as much as it is Sri Lanka. And I think it's going to result in quite a conundrum of things happening. And maybe we just need less international cricket until a vaccine is rolled out. Although, you know, that means we lose an entire summer here in South Africa because I don't think Africa will see the vaccine. They're talking about mid-2020.

So it's really tricky for cricket South Africa. Should neutral venues be used? Should they be hoping for sort of multi-team series, which are, are going to be played somewhere like the UAE because we saw the IPL go ahead without too many issues apart from the bit at the start with the Chennai Super Kings players. And I just think it puts cricket South Africa

in such a difficult position. You know, they don't have a lot of leadership at the moment. There's an acting CEO, there's an interim board. People are getting suspended every now and then. And this on top of it means that off the field, on the field, just nothing's working. From a journalistic perspective for those, I mean, do people feel there that, you know,

as people do hear a bit, that sport has sold out to TV, and the pressure to fulfill broadcasting deals is massive these days. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's definitely being highlighted more and more and that the only reason that there was such a push to have these matches take place in the end, beyond like World Cup Super League points or anything, was just the fact that cricket South Africa need money.

And it also kind of shows you the precarious nature of the broadcast deal because South Africa only really make money when they're hosting one of England, India or Australia. And even then, they'll only make a decent, amount of money if the results of those series is uncertain. And so there's, you know, the broadcaster can hedge their bets on it being something exciting to watch. When they host Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Bangladesh, et cetera, they're not making money. They're spending money because they're putting teams up and now, you know, they're putting them up in bubble environments. So it really means that the way for

smaller nations who are not part of that big three to make money of cricket is multi-team tournaments or having one of the big three come and tour. And, you know, that means then that everybody wants the Indians, the Australians and the England's, which puts pressure on them to play much more than maybe they would like to, and which puts pressure on the hosts to make sure that they can provide an environment that is safe. So I think, yeah, it's really showing us that I think cricket and the way it runs needs a bit of a rethink. International cricket and the way it makes money also needs a bit of a rethink. Yeah. Did you think this would work? And I wonder how you feel today now that it hasn't? I don't know what I thought to be honest. I mean,

I think, you know, when we saw what happened with the 3TC in July and initially they had announced a date and it was postponed and it just seemed as though very little was going according to plan there. And then we saw kind of further meltdown of cricket South Africa, which resulted in the entire board resigning and then them almost being suspended by the minister. You know, there was a chance that this tour wouldn't have happened anyway because South Africa's sports minister would have refused to officially recognize cricket South Africa. So I can't even say what I thought in that. it's just sort of things just bumble along and every time we think I'm sure nothing more could possibly go wrong something completely unexpected happens I did think that um you know knowing the facilities at the vineyard and just knowing how committed people like graham smith department were to making cricket happen I didn't think it would have as many problems as it's ended up having and

I really think the big issue was the golf and the kind of going away from the venue to an estate an hour away and sure they were using a separate entrance and all of that but that made should really be re-looked at. And then I think, you know, trying to squeeze it in, because really this is in a very small time frame to get these matches in. And perhaps you need more of a window on either side. So I think now the real fear is that, you know, South Africa are hoping to have a summer where they host Sri Lanka, where perhaps they go to Pakistan, and then they host Australia, and then Pakistan come here, and that takes them to the start of an IPL. But it's looking as though something may not work according to plan. Perhaps everything won't

work according to plan. And at the same time, if they don't get their house in order and the board to be more established, a permanent CEO to be appointed, money to be coming in, eventually we will have to feel the effects domestically. So South African cricket, interestingly, there have been no pay cuts so far and no retrenchments at national level. But I think that could change. I just wonder what sort of charm offensive. They can have to play with Australia in particular. Unknown administrators, this temporary feel to the board, it's not going to be easy, is it? No.

I mean, the other thing, of course, is that we don't actually know who will be the person talking to Australia, because ostensibly, South African cricket should hold an AGM sometime in January, and then perhaps the process of appointing a permanent CEO will begin, and this interim board is only due to be in place until the end of January 2. So I think it will probably end up that they're in place for six months instead of three, and that the process of appointing a permanent CEO could be delayed. But at the moment, it's like nobody really even knows who's doing the talking. and what sort of gravitas they have and what relationship they have because ultimately that's that's kind of what makes these things work you know graham smith was able to talk to sarah ganguly and secure those india matches and then of course they didn't happen but you kind of get the gist of what i'm trying to say there so i think south african cricket just really when people look at it from the outside now that they're seeing a situation that they can't even begin to to dissect who's who and what's what and why so many people are involved and why the olympic committee wants to ban the

the board and why the minister's involved and it's just looking chaotic which sure it's been through chaotic times in the past but i think the the damage that's being done the long-term reputational damage is going to be so difficult for cricket south africa to come back from you know their comparisons being made to for example zimbabwe cricket and without sort of getting into the the implications in terms of it being a third world place and even a race implication that comes with it i do think that that they're trading very dangerous ground cricket and in South Africa. They've gone from being, you know, one of the best organized, think of the IPL that was moved here in such a short period of time, the Football World Cup, to really

just looking like a mess. And that's not good for anyone. That's a really interesting perspective, isn't it? From Fidoz Munda, from Crick Info. And Michael Vaughn is still here. Lots to pick up on there, Michael. And I think the first thing is, particularly the Australians. I mean, it's a, obviously, it's the biggest payday for cricket South Africa. We know that the Australians, and more escort things under control and done it the hard way in Australia as far as the virus is concerned. But the fact that they couldn't even stage

a three-match one-day international series is not going to look good, is it? No, there's so many really good points that were made. You know, I'd never like to hear the fact that money was an issue because, you know, surely the World Game has to look after that. No, surely if there is an issue in South Africa,

they haven't got the money to be able to get the test. or put a proper bubble in place to make sure that these players are secure. Surely the ICC or the powerhouse of three in terms of India, Australia and England have to look after the game at this time. You know, it can't be that, you know, South Africa don't have the money and yet they can't provide the bubble which is required because they haven't got the expenditure to go on get the right tests or get the right security.

That can't be the case for cricket because if it is, we're going to see many, many more of these kind of series that will end up like the one that we're seeing in. in South Africa. But part of the problem, Michael, is that they've sold these, and ECBs are saying, they've sold these broadcast rights so high that these three matches,

as she was saying, it would cost them $2 million, not to stage. I mean, it's, if we know how colossal the English rights are, so if you don't play them with any reason why they're not played, that's a massive bill you've got to pay back.

Yeah, well, that's why I say that the expenditure has to come before the series starts in terms of making sure that the bubble is biosecure. And if it is that it's going to cost the game a little bit more money at this stage. The game, in terms of the ICC and the three powerhouses, which have all the money, they've got to help out.

Because South Africa don't have the money. They don't have the finances of the ECB, of the BCCI, the Cricket Board of Australia. They just don't have the same kind of money. There's no way Australia is going to go to South Africa. Absolutely no chance. No chance, haggers, that they'll go to South Africa. It's very difficult to get into Australia. They don't like their own to leave the country.

So they're not going to go to South Africa where there's just been a series canceled because the bubble wasn't secure enough. But somehow, for cricket to go on, the game has to look after the smaller countries that don't have the finances. It can't be the case that now South Africa are going to be $2 million down.

It might be more than that when you start looking at sponsorships and going forward. The series against Australia is cancelled. Again, a massive chunk of their revenue that they would have expected to come in. the broadcaster will want the money back, rightfully so. So there's going to be a big problem.

I mean, we've got to be honest, South African cricket, it's a shambles. You know, that's my honest opinion about the way that South Africa has been run recently. I just don't see it having any kind of structure of leadership from the CEO. There's just too many swapping and changing. There's too much mention of things that aren't quite right. So they have to get the house in order. but I do fear for countries like South Africa that haven't got the money to be able to put on these biosecure

areas or arenas, whatever you may call them and there will be other series. I'm amazed there's not been more. I have to say I mean, New Zealand have got it right. They seem to be putting on a very strategic military operation for their cricket to get put on. Australia are exactly the same. South Africa failed and that's something that they're going to have to try and get right because there won't be many countries that'll be sticking the hand up to go there.

Interesting, isn't it? A bit of a smoke screen, perhaps. It's business of the nets at Newlands. You can see the administrators there just trying to offload some of the blame for what's happened and how particularly the visitors got it. This whole question of,

well, they use those nets they weren't supposed to, but it's a bit of a shame. That's popped up, really. Yeah, that's nonsense. Let's be honest. I mean, I'm sure when England were practicing that I made sure that there was no anyone from the construction area

anywhere near the players. I'm sure there weren't. going around touching poles and touching walls that had just gone straight to the net, hit a few balls and then come back. I find that a bizarre kind of finger point. We don't want that. We don't want finger points to anyone. This is an unfortunate situation.

But when you hear that they haven't got the testing and they don't have the money to put the biosecure environment around the teams, as much as we had in the UK, we've got hotels at the actual grounds here. We're very fortunate. It's a real fine balance, though, Agers, because you know, you're damned if you do you're damned if you don't. So in the summer here when it was a military operation

right for the so, by the third or four months, the players like, come on, we need to be released. This is ridiculous. You know, it's hurt in the mental side of all the individuals involved. We felt it, I guess, in and around that bubble. It wasn't easy. So I think these bubbles now are trying to get a little bit more relaxed

which allows the players to go and play golf and know it might be an hour away from the hotel, but I would think in terms of the England team, a very strict strategic plan of how they got there played and got back in the car and came straight back to the hotel because players do need that you know you can't just lock players up they've been in these bubbles for six months they've gone from you know a bubble in the UK to the UAE with the IPL straight to South Africa some are going to Australia they're taking the toll now too

aren't they I mean there's certainly two England players who aren't going to go to the big bash there might be more and and it's interesting the ECB said at the end of the summer they wouldn't do those bubbles in the same way again I mean you can see they clearly are taking their toll on the players now. Yeah, and that's why, you know, we can't be too critical because they've probably tried to relax it a little bit in South Africa because I'm sure players would have demanded

a little bit more relaxation around the bubble because it was so strict and strategic that worked here, but over time, I think those bubbles will get a little bit more out. They relaxed them in the IPL, in the UAE and Dubai where they were allowed to go and play golf, have a bit of a relaxing time. They were in certain segments at the beach.

They were allowed to go and, you know, potter around the beach. beach on the days off. And players enjoyed that. And I think it's right that, you know, if you're just looking, I've just seen David Milan over the last couple of days. He's arrived in South Africa from, in Australia from South Africa. He's been put in this little box room. He was promised a balcony, he's not got one, promised a running machine in his room, not got one. And he said the food is absolutely dreadful. Now, I don't want anyone to feel sorry for a cricketer because there's a lot more people in the world worse off, but, you know, to be to be thrown into a room. And,

I think it's just wrong on people. Forget cricketers. For people to go and sit for two weeks staring at a wall, I think that's a real... Well, maybe the hope of this vaccine might make one or two cricketers actually focus their minds and say, you know, I'm not going to go this time. Hopefully, in a few months' time, we can actually get back to some sort of normality. And I don't need to go and sit in a box for two weeks. I can just say, no thanks.

Well, yeah, and Tom Banton didn't surprise me when he pulled out. Tom Curran has done exactly the same. just not willing to leave what's been a bubble in South Africa to then go to Australia, have that two-week quarantine period. They're not willing to do that. I was many being in Australia this winter aggers and for that reason, I didn't want to go and put myself through that. I didn't like being in the bubble in the summer.

So I stuck my hand up early and said, look, I'm more than happy to miss it. You know, and I think there may be one or two more players, particularly that have been around the England team of the last few days. It's not easy, as I said at the start of the podcast, you know, if you're one of those players waiting for your results and there's been two already that came back positive and hoping that it was a false positive,

what happens is there's a few more tomorrow morning they can't come back. I know there's many people like, yeah, but they're in the vineyard hotel in South Africa, but they can't do anything. They have to sit in the rooms. Yeah, I must say also, I was a bit surprised they kept the same team for those three games,

but you've got people sitting in there, sitting in bubbles and everything else. I mean, you give up a game, don't you? Yeah, well, and I think that's probably, if this carries on for any much, longer, I think teams are just going to have to almost have two teams and there's a team that plays the

T20s, there's a team that plays the 50 overs and potentially three teams, a team that plays the test matches. It's very difficult to keep them all locked up like they have done. One thing of Fidose and I did agree on in that chat as well was about how cricket is so dependent and all sports, I've already saw

major sports on broadcasting money and that's why these games are being played. It's why the games are played in the summer of course to try and save the board money. They still lost 100 million pounds but the size of these contracts and therefore the penalties

when something goes wrong and look at England's schedule they've got two tests in Sri Lanka probably coming up four against India T20s in India as the IPL for those who want to go and play in that home series against New Zealand Sri Lanka, Pakistan five tests against India then T20s in Pakistan, Bangladesh

and that's before they even got to the T20 World Cup and that's before the ashes I mean what sort of schedule is that Well, it's a very busy one. It's very, very busy. They can't play. It's just dawding on me now, actually. Yeah, I keep saying, just enjoy your time off at the minute because once we get on the train next year, it's not stopping, which, you know, I'm certainly not going to complain about that.

I'm desperate to go and commentate on cricket and be at venues, see some crowds back hopefully. But, you know, the ECB are going to have to manage those players accordingly. They're going to have to give them, you know, times away from the game. You know, it might be that we see plenty of new players within the teams, which is fine. You know, I think England will have to pinpoint what's important next year, which is obviously the T20 World Cup and the Ashes. And they'll have to really work around the test to make sure that they get a test team that's got a chance of competing in Australia.

And they have been, you know, with the T20 team, you felt that by the fact that England played the same team three times, I mean, Morgan had almost settled on an 11. was happy with it and thought I'll just keep playing that and I'm sure that I'll carry on through to the T20 World Cup but the 50 overs you would think it'd be the former aggers that we'll see quite a few younger players or new players brought in yeah I think so I think that'd be sensible and I don't think we as broadcasters or the fans out there could complain if they arrived to a ground and they kind of went who who who who who's playing I wouldn't be expecting the lights of butler archer stokes to be playing too much 50 over

cricket next year. You mentioned the big bash, that's on five live sports extra, also Australia India. I think I read somewhere. You said Australia would win all the formats, but they really lost the T20 series, Michael. Yeah, I did, I mean. You've losing your grip. Yes, a little bit. I think I've been a bit unfortunate with a few injuries for Australia

with the likes of Warner Finch, and then they decided to rest Stark and Cummings. So I kind of lost a little bit of my grip there with a bit of bad fortune, but India are very good at T20 cricket. They've won nine on the trot now. they look very settled in the T20 format in the 50 over format

Australia was just too powerful and too good and I think in the test series I think the Osses are going to be too powerful for Australia for the Indians because Virat plays the first test it's that day night game in Adelaide Australia have won every single pink ball game at the Adelaide Oval and then Virac goes back for the birth of his first child and then

the Indians I'll have to cope with without Virac Coley for three test matches I just fancy that Australia would be too powerful. They've got this Cameron Green, I don't know if you've seen too much of him, but he's just all-rounder from Western Australia. He's got 100 in the A-team against India

in the last couple of days. He looks a player. He looks like Australia have got an all-rounder that could bat at six or seven. Bowls at about 1-45s and plays very conventionally and orthodox and hits the ball hard. So I wouldn't be surprised if we,

in a year's time, I see in the life. It's a Cameron Green, Will Pocoski. He's had a great state season so far, and it looks like he may get a slot at the top of the order. David Warner won't be fit for the first, as you can't imagine. So it'll be Pocke and Burns at the top. And whoever does the best out of those till,

we'll be partnering David Warner. Good man, Michael. Love to catch up with you. As you mentioned, you can hear commentary on Australia, India, including the test series. That starts on the 17th of December on 5 Live Sports Extra and also the Big Bash. There's a tough as and Vaughn podcast on this feed on Thursday night

with Sir Alistair Cook. in for Michael and we'll see you again soon. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Okay, Vaughney, good lad. You'd look after yourself. Yeah, cheers, I guess. Yeah, nice to talk to you, mate. Go well, mate. Catch you properly somewhere.

Cheers, pal.