Test Match Special - The World Cup Years: 1975

Episode Date: May 12, 2019

Kevin Howells and Andy Zaltzman begin their look back on the four men's World Cup tournaments previously held in the UK and their impact on the game. They start with the first event held in 1975 won by a brilliant West Indies side. Guests include winning captain Clive Lloyd, first tournament centurion Dennis Amiss plus finalists Ian Chappell and Deryck Murray.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, hello and welcome to one of our four programs where we're going to try and bring back to life the four cricket World Cups that have been held in this country,

1975, 79, 83 and 1999. And we begin with the very first Men's World Cup, 1975. And I am so thrilled that we're joined by two men who took part in that historic event. A World Cup winner with the West Indies, Derek Murray, joining us from Trinidad, where I should point out, by the way, At the time of speaking, Derek, what time is it in Trinidad with you at the moment?

It's 6.30 in the morning, so I'm just waking up to the beautiful warm dawn, so nice to be here. Oh, it's brilliant to have you with us, and getting up so early, Dennis Amos, he's had a lie-in. Semi-finalist with England also got the tournament off to a cracking start with 137 runs on the very first day against India. and Dennis is in Birmingham, as I say, he didn't have to get up quite so early to join us. 1975, World Cup. Can you just sum up to begin with, when somebody says that to you,

what does it bring to mind? Great excitement. It was the first World Cup, and we hadn't played much one-day cricket prior to that. Domestically we had. I think we had the competition that started in 1963, which was Gillette Cup.

That was 65 overs. and it eventually came down to 60 and then of course we had the One Day International. We had played a One Day International after the 74-75 series against Australia and obviously I played one or two prior to that but a wonderful excitement. All the great teams coming together

in our country in England and everybody was just looking forward to it and we had a wonderful weather to kickstart it for the first match. I'm also delighted to say Andy Zaltzman's in our London studio able to join this. Andy, thank you very much. You're involved with all four programmes looking forward to it, I'm sure. But can you hit me with a stat straight away, Andy? Before the 75 World Cup, there had been only 18 one-day internationals,

three of which had been reined off, so were no results. West Indies, whom Derek played for and ended up winning the tournament, had only played two matches. India had also played two and Pakistan, just three. It shows quite how new the concept of one day international cricket was. Okay, let's get ourselves really in the mood. We're going to drop in every now and then a little bit of archive into our programs. And I think this is certainly going to get Derek in the mood for things.

Let's just listen to that very special moment at Lords back in 1975. And Thompson has a wild hit at that bun, and Murray throws the dump. He's out. He is out. Murray threw the ball down and think. And Australia have been beaten. West Indies have won. Derek, tell me that you can just picture in your mind,

although it is ridiculous o'clock with you at the moment, so early, but just that ball into the glove, does it still have a vivid picture in your mind? It does indeed. I'm getting goosebumps just recalling it now. It really was, as Dennis says, it was an exciting tournament. And for the culmination to come at that time

and, you know, just the euphoria that we've won. Didn't have much time to savor the moment on the field because the crowd was rushing on, some in ecstasy, some in disappointment, but it really was a tremendous feeling. It was 843, I believe, in the evening. Fortunately, it was midsummer's day, and another glorious day in England

and really it was just a wonderful, wonderful moment to be the first champions of the World Cup. Okay, well, plenty more from you, Derek. I think first maybe now, Andy, what we ought to do is just outline how the competition worked back in 75. Well, in fact, it was eight nations in total. The six that were playing test cricket at the time,

South Africa were out of international cricket due to apartheid at the time. So Sri Lanka and East Africa, which was a combination of four African countries. They were roundly hammered in all three of their games. Sri Lanka heavily beaten in two matches, put up a decent show against Australia. So there were no shocks in this first World Cup.

The first of the upset came in 1979, four years later. But there were some truly extraordinary matches. The first game famously ended up in England winning by more than 200 runs after India made a 132 for 3 and 60 overs chasing a target for 335. There was an extraordinary semi-final. I'm sure we'll talk about with Dennis, where England and Australia had a very kind of thrilling, low-scoring game.

England would bowl out for 93, I think it was Australia, 94 for 6. And Derek, you were involved in one of the greatest World Cup matches in the group stage against Pakistan, when you were involved in what is still the high. highest 10th wicket stand to win a second innings chase in a one-day international when you put on 64 with Andy Roberts to beat Pakistan? Yeah, that was really a high point for me personally because basically the game was done and dusted. Pakistan were celebrating. That was at Edgebuston. I actually spoke to

to Andy Roberts last night he's in Antigua and we still stay in touch of course he thinks he was the star of that show but but it was great and really it defined the

World Cup for the West Indies had we lost that game we were out of the tournament similar for Pakistan and you know it was just great to eke out those runs we had to get those 64 runs in 16 overs and it was just eking them out

and we eventually won with two balls to spare. What did you expect of yourself, Derek? What did you expect of the team going into the tournament, the West Indies? Well, we were just hopeful that we would do well. We had the reputation of having particularly the batsmen who could thrill a crowd, you know, score relatively quickly. So we were really excited looking forward to it. Just as Dennis has the honor of being the first centurion ever in World Cup cricket,

it would have been great for West Indies to be the first ever winners. And so we were really looking forward to it. A little bit people were thinking this game suits the West Indian, so we should win. So I suppose there was a little bit of pressure as the favourite. But it was all a learning experience. you know, will we get our tactics right? Will we bowl the right bowlers at the right time? Will we ensure that all the bowlers got their 12 overs in

and we didn't end up with one bowler having two overs to bowl at the end? But it really was experimental in many ways. And you felt that, look, what you do, what the other teams do is also going to determine whether this experiment continues. and you know here we are talking about it many years later so obviously it worked Lillian Thompson Dennis the previous winter in England Australia it hadn't gone so well what were the expectations of England well on our home ground the expectations were quite high we got a very good side and in every department so I think that you know

we thought that playing in our conditions that we had the advantage over teams like I mean, the West Indies were obviously, as Derek says, favourites because they had such a great side, so many great players in the team. But we thought we fantered our chances to get to the final at least. And if we met West Indies, we'd hope we'd have a lot of luck and we might be able to beat them. But yeah, we were hopeful.

We got into that extraordinary match where the atmosphere was conducive for Swiss. bowling and not only did it swing, but it also moved off the pitch as well. So Gary Gilmore had a field day and made the ball talk, and he was virtually unplayable. And Clive, Lloyd, we're going to hear an interview, a short interview with Clive in a few moments, Derek. He's an iconic figure, isn't he, of world cricket? Tell us about the man, about the captain. Undoubtedly, and he's a charismatic leader, leads by example as well, because as Dennis was

saying, you know, we are player players, and so Clive was at the forefront of that. So it really was just jelling the team together and making sure that all the parts work because whether you're bowlers, your batsmen, it was all well and good to be saying, okay, let's restrict the batsmen. But, you know, when you've got bowlers like Andy Roberts, Bernard Julian, Van Bernholder, Keith Boyes, you know, they want to get wickets. So, you know, while the captain may be thinking, look, containment and, you know, I'll set a field on the offside or so. They want to be bowling in-swingers and out-swingers and everything else.

So it was interesting trying to hold it all together. We asked for some response on Twitter leading into this programme, and Ken Grime said he was at Headingley for England-Australia semi-final. Crazy game. Any more stats to throw at us, Andy? Any sort of references to what we've talked about so far? Well, a couple of things. on Dennis' innings on that first day, 137,

that remained England's highest score in a World Cup match until Andrew Strauss made 158 against India in 2011. On the same opening day, all eight teams played on the 7th of June, 1975. Glenn Turner of New Zealand made 171 not out and against East Africa. And remarkably, Sunil Gavisgar's innings, 36 of 174, was not the slowest of the day.

Mehud Qureshi of East Africa made 16 not out of 88 balls as East Africa crawled to 128 for 8 off 60 and it shows I guess there was a degree of inequality I guess between the teams in terms of experience obviously none of the teams were particularly experienced in international cricket but if you look at the obviously the England team that they'd all played county cricket for years the West Indian team had a core of what the majority of the side

including Derek had played several seasons in county cricket and by comparison India Cyril Gavisca I think it was in his 8th list day one-day match Carson Gavri there opening bowler took naught for 83 or 11 he'd also only played 7 or 8 matches so there was a big disparity in limited over-experience

in that tournament losing the semi-final to Australia they won by four wickets Gilmore Gary Gilmore 12 over 6 maidens 6 for 14 what was all that about Dennis and and you know we we make such big thing about the disappointment the agony the pain

this was such a new competition did it feel a painful experience there in that semi-final not getting through to the final? Oh, very painful, yes. I mean, we thought we've got a great chance of getting through to the final

and to go out in such a dismal way was, yeah, it really did hurt. And so there were two things there, being bowled out for 89, although the conditions were very special for swing and seam bowling. And especially when Gary was bowling, Gary Gilmore was bowling, and not to get to the final and play the West Indies

on home soil in our own country. It hurt very much. The West Indies beat New Zealand by five wickets in their semi-final at the Oval to get through to the final. Before we hear from Derek on that final at Lords, let's hear from the captain himself, the West Indian captain Clive Lloyd. In the First World Cup, we had a lot of young players. We had just come back from India to my first tour as captain. We were successful. close series at 3-2 so we were bubbling too and we had a beach Pakistan at Birmingham to qualify we won and we realized that yeah we have a

chance of winning continued and did extremely well and won it in front of you know a lot of West Indian so it was quite exciting for us and that in itself gave us that impetus to do well in test matches which we did and so that was I think the starting point of our great run. Clive, the wonderful 100 you scored in the final, where does that rank when you look back in your career and your achievements? Yeah, one of the best innings that I played

because we were struggling, we were two or three down and I, and I myself, you know, I got dropped. And from then I started time to ball quite well. I said, hey, this looked like it's my day. And playing the Australians too now, They were not the best runners between the wicket. So we knew that, you know, we had to look for those sort of things too. And lifting the trophy, the first ever World Cup at Lords,

how do you recall those feelings? Oh, yes. Well, that's just, I mean, you'll never be another first. You know, to be the champions of the world. And we have five million people and we made a lot of people happy. That's Clive Lloyd. Kelvin's been on Twitter. He says, I was there in 75.

I've only time I've been to Lords. I think he liked it. Noisy, uncomfortable seats, pitch invasion, Vives runouts, Frederick's hit wicket, Lloyd was amazing, and Norman Wisdom sat behind me. And it was very hot. If you don't know who Norman Wisdom is, by the way,

you're that young. I suggest you just go on a search engine to look at that. What the Australians make of it, I wonder. Let's hear from Ian Chappell on the runouts, on the World Cup finals a whole. Ian Chappell. We all got off the bus, and there was a lot of West Indie support.

all milling around behind the pavilion there at Lords when we got off the bus. And they were terrific. Lloydy's 100. I sent them in because it was an early start and I thought if it's going to do anything, do something there. I reckon we got, we had them three for 51 or something like that. And I reckon we had Rowan caught behind off a no ball from Jeff Thompson. But Rowan, I mean, I knew Rowan pretty well because I'd captained against him in the West Indies in 73 and I played against him here, 68, 9.

So I knew Rowan fairly well and, you know, I knew he was a bloody good player. And he played, I mean, he doesn't get much kudos, really. Lloydy gets all the kudos for making 100. But he really steadied things after, you know, we got some early wickets. And then Lloydy just came in and blasted us. Here's Lloyd with his first ball.

He comes in to Ian Chappell, captain to captain. And Chappell is on the front foot. There's hesitation between running, running between the wickets. He's out. Brilliant bit of fielding. My Richards, a brilliant bit of fielding by Richards, runs, Turner out.

The first one I only think it was out. I never thought it was out, and I've seen photos since Alan Turner. If you look at the photo, he's level with the stumps, and the bales are not very far off. Because I remember looking back, he was a bit, I mean, there was an easy run there, but he was a bit slow out of the blocks. So I look back to see how he was going.

And even just looking back, I thought, that's not out, but it was given out. As Ian Chappell waiting as Roberts comes in both to him, and he shuffles across outside the Oswald Plays it, square on the offside, a misunderstanding between batsman and fielders, and he's run out. Greg Chappell is run out. Richard threw the ball there and hit the stumps. The off bail came off. I mean, if Greg didn't think there was a run, he would have sent me back

because, you know, he said afterwards he thought there was a run there. But Viv, I mean, Viv threw him down from side on, and then I got run out. Got by Richards and the ball comes in the line here's the third runout. Ian Chappell, runout for 62. Richard Mostoev got themselves into some sort of position where they look as though they're a counter-attacking with success and run-out has happened. And then there was two more.

Well, the last wicket fell to a run-out. I think they tried to sneak a single and Derek Murray threw the stumps down with the gloves on. Even though they were chasing a big total, I thought we had a chance of getting him. Dennis and Tomo. They got us very close. So it was, you know, as I say,

apart from losing, you never liked to lose, but it was a very good day for cricket, I thought. Ian Chappell basically saying, you know, it was great for world cricket. Is that the way you look at it, Derek Murray, great for West Indian cricket, but also great for world cricket? Is that the way it felt to you at the time?

Or looking back even more so? Yes, it did because, As I say, from the start of the tournament, it was experimental. By the time we got to the final, you knew that this World Cup cricket was here to stay. It was no longer an experiment. It was absolutely successful. The English public, and in the English public, I am including all those West Indians, Indians, Pakistanis, who were living there.

They just came out. Grongs were full. The excitement was there. And so getting to the final was a really, really special day. And you get to lords and you see all different people there, different in the sense that, yes, there were loads of West Indians, loads of English. But there were the Australians, New Zealanders, everybody.

had come out to see this special location, the final. Lords at its most glorious, midsummer's day, you couldn't want anything more. And, you know, it really was a great atmosphere. By the time we had got to that stage of the tournament, we were actually going through the preliminary games, and it looked as though the organizers' wish of a West Indies England final would have come, off. But of course there was, England had that extraordinary semi-final with Australia. So it was West Indies Australia. And really, you just walked out onto the feeling and you just knew this is what any sport would want, the kind of excitement being generated in the crowd. That's the kind of atmosphere

you want. Viv Richards, so Vivian Richards, everybody knows about the batting. But here we're talking about some pretty amazing fielding as well. I can't imagine a lot of work was done on fielding.

Perhaps it was, you'll correct me on that, but that display in the field. No, that was unbelievable. And for one person to be hitting the stumps as well, because you tend to think that runouts are usually affected by, you know, the fieldsman getting the ball quickly into the wicket keeper or the bowler.

But Viv actually hit the stump three occasions to run out three players. And I mean, even for a team to get three runouts against them, you know, you think they are a little bit unlucky. But in the end, it was five. I'm really upset that they didn't count the last one as a stump because I would still love to see, you know, stumped Marie Bowl holder or something like that. But be that as it may, you know, runouts kind of won the game first and fifth was at the centre of that. Mike Bell was on Twitter, talking about a game at Old Trafford, actually, India versus New Zealand earlier in the tournament,

says Farooke Engineer played for Lancashire, of course. When he was given out LBW to Sir Richard Hadley, huge booze. He said, we did what we called a full dog day, ending up in a nightclub in Manchester at 2am in our cricket whites. Derek, a few weeks on, did you end up in a nightclub? the day before you then had to turn out for Warwickshire in a Sunday league game? What was the celebrating?

How did you celebrate? Because there are photographs I've seen of the Australians actually in the dressing room all seem to be sort of having a drink and getting on well together after the game. Is that right? Do you have memories of that? Yeah, we did have a few moments together as rivals do. But again, everybody had to go back to where they were.

And while you imagine that if we'd won, we're in London, we're going to go to all the nightclubs, et cetera. You know, my wife was there in the crowd, so again, you're ready to party. But kind of at getting back to the hotel at about 10, 30, 11, you know, you just didn't think, what do we do now? It almost was a bit of an anticlimax. I say almost. It would never be an anti-climax. It just wasn't the partying in the pools in Trafalgar Square or anything like that. You know, it was far more sedate and some of our players had to go off to get back to their counties.

So, Derek, you've never jumped in the water at Trafalgar Square. Perhaps you need to come and do that celebration. We'll all be there to help you relive that moment, perhaps, of 1975. But the thing is... That would be tremendous. Andy, any more to throw at us in terms of the final than the tournament? Well, Clive Lloyd's inning is one of the greatest in international cricket history and one of the most influential, I guess, in terms of helping to popularise the shorter formats of the game.

And 82 Ball 100, that was the fastest in ODI cricket until 1980. And it remained the fastest 100 in World Cup cricket until 2003. To put it in context of the scoring rates at the time, that first World Cup, runs were scored at 3.9 per over. The 2015 World Cup, the most recent one, it was 5.6. In 1975, there were 286s hitting the entire tournament in 15

matches, so just under 2 per match, and in the 2015 World Cup, it was fractioning under 10 per match. So, for someone to play innings like that, in the context of cricket at the time, I think you could say that was one of the most influential individual innings played in the

history of cricket. Derek, would you agree? certainly and certainly the impact it had on us on the day was outstanding to get to 291 and then have your captain lead the way in that you know that was the icing on the cake Dennis did you think he was here to stay after all that and we should point out by the way Dennis the other thing that perhaps we haven't illustrated here for those that sort of take it as being commonplace now that of course Andy referenced this so many games actually played on the same day, let alone sort of live TV coverage, all that sort of thing. It was very difficult for you to keep in touch, I suppose, a little bit with the tournament

and games you weren't involved with. But did you think, and had experienced enough to think this is here to stay? Yes, definitely. The great thing was that county cricket was going through a very difficult time in the 60s. We had that letter that went out to all the counties saying, were you enjoying cricket? And I think there was a certain club. I don't think I should name them, but most of the players said, They weren't. We came along with Gillette Cup cricket 65 overs and that was a renaissance for the game and it got better and better and suddenly we had World Cup cricket 10 or 11 years later and it was just a wonderful, wonderful summer, some marvellous cricket being played, the great side, the greatest players in the game all coming together with the great weather and some marvellous cricket and you knew the cricket was the winner.

West Indies were the winners. They were the best side. Definitely thought, after being part of it and playing in it, that one-day cricket had really finally arrived with international cricket on the World Cup and that was going to be the way forward. Derek, Dennis, it's a privilege to hear you two talk about this now.

Thank you very much for your time. Andy Zaltzman, have any last minute thoughts to throw our way? Well, just on England in that tournament, their bowl has collectively averaged 70, runs per wicket. It's the lowest by any team in a World Cup and went for 2.5 and over. They're the only team ever to go for under three and over for an entire World Cup. So I guess they put in a pretty decent performance on just that one slightly freakish game. Gary Gilmore took five wickets in the final as well.

So 11 wickets in the semi and final for 62 runs in 24 overs combined. Only one other bowler has ever taken more than six wickets in a semi and final combined. And that was Shane Warn, who had eight weeks. wickets in the semi and final of the 99 World Cup. As always, Andy, outstanding. Thank you for that. I look forward to hearing from Andy again in the other programmes, as I say, to Derek Murray and also to Dennis Amos.

Thank you both, especially for those who would have enjoyed listening to their commentary at the time. I think we'll leave the final word to the former BBC cricket correspondent, Brian Johnson. West Indies of won by 17 runs at 8.42pm at Lords on June the 21st, 19. I wish all of you could have been here with us to enjoy it. And with that, goodbye from Lords and back to all your studios. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.