Test Match Special - TMS does the IPL: Sunrisers Hyderabad special with Rashid Khan and Jonny Bairstow

Episode Date: October 19, 2020

Aatif Nawaz & Daniel Norcross reflect on an extraordinary few days at the IPL with ties, super overs and amazing performances. We also focus on Sunrisers Hyderabad as we’re joined by superstar Afghan spinner Rashid Khan and Jonny Bairstow reveals the secret of his opening partnership with Ashes rival David Warner.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Welcome to episode four of TMS does the IPL.

I'm Artif Noise, and joining me this week is Dan Norcross. We're becoming inseparable, Dan, you and I. We're watching the matches together. We're commenting together. We're doing this together. It's like, why aren't we eating together? That's what I want. This is exactly what's going to ask.

Do you want to form a support bubble? I think so. You would be ideal for my support bubble. You can teach me how to make the perfect biryani. I know that's important to you. You taught me some Punjabi the other day. Let's expand it. I want more.

I want Urdu. I want Pashtun. I want the lot. Absolutely. That I can provide some languages. But also, we can watch a lot of cricket. There's so much to watch. And the games are getting longer and longer, Dan.

Like, we've got so much cricket to watch. An unprecedented number of superovers. There was a day in this year's IPL where three superovers happened across two games. I mean, that's what is going on? It was absolutely insane, wasn't it? I mean, the first superover was really short because, you know, a guy who hasn't played for the entire IPL up until now comes in and takes two wickets in three balls. Locky Ferguson.

I mean, where's he hiding all this IPL? But then the second game, I mean, that finished about, what was it, about 745? I had a Zoom call today. I was doing a quiz at 7.30. I thought, that's always going to work. No IPL game goes on for four and a half hours. Then there was a super over. I thought, oh, I'm cutting it fine.

The second super over, that's what they should have done in the World Cup final. I mean, it's brilliant to watch, isn't it? Just unbelievable theatre. And the other thing we're seeing, and we kind of anticipated that this would happen, is that as the tournament grows and goes on, the pitches in Sharja, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, they're getting a little bit tougher, it's a little bit more tricky for the sort of medium pace or fast medium. It's like you need express pace or you need the spinners to come through. So I think we're going to start seeing a sort of change in personnel.

You know, that's another really notable feature is just how many sort of chops and changes they've been within the different teams, haven't there? Yeah, absolutely. Batting lineups changing every day, like different opening partnerships. For a while, we were getting really excited about watching Ben Stokes and Joss Butler opened the bat bat bat batting together

and that lasted all of two games and then, you know, that was switched around as well. I listened to the commentary, one of the few days that you and I weren't on together, Abysheg Junjindwal was with you, and he had a fantastic idea, which I really think they should put out there, which was to put together two teams at the end of the IPL,

one of which was comprised of the most expensive players and one of which that was comprised of the cheapest players and see how effective the how far that money really goes. I would love to see that. I would love to see that. I get a strong feeling that it's never going to happen because it's really not in the interest of the people who've selected all the really, well, also the expensive players are hiding to nothing there, aren't they? If they lose, then their contracts get slashed next year. They could absolutely do a stats version of it. So I'd be quite keen to do a stats breakdown at the end of this tournament. And maybe we can talk to a good friend Andy Zaltzman

to help us do this. Hey, I'll tell you what we do. We simulate it. You know, like how in lockdown they were forever simulating games of cricket that hadn't happened? We could simulate it on the basis of their performances. Yeah, let's get Zaltzman involved.

Brilliant idea. Yeah, I think, I'm very, very curious to see how effective that is and how much that weighs into the franchise's decisions and things like that. But it has been exciting nonstop. That much can't be denied. Very, very exciting matches.

very closely fought and very evenly balanced teams. And every week we're bringing you exclusive interviews with IPL stars and giving you a peek into their incredible experiences in this roller coaster tournament. This week we're hanging out with the 2016 champions, the Sunrises Heatherabad, world famous leg spinner, the pride of Afghanistan, Rashid Khan, will be telling us what it's like to face David Warner, Johnny Beirsto, Kane Williamson in the Nets. It'll also be shedding light on why franchise cricket is so important to him.

And, of course, we've got another very special guest, don't we, Dan? Absolutely, Artif. We've got World Cup winner Johnny Berto, who'll be talking to us about what it's like to be part of that star-studded lineup at the Sunrises Hyderabad. The idiosyncratic differences in all the different IPL venues. And, of course, that extraordinary opening partnership he's formed with David Warner. Also, I can't wait to hear what he thinks about who, when, and where it might be possible for that 500 barrier to be broken in ODI cricket. Yeah, it's only a matter of time. I can't wait to talk about that during the podcast.

And today we're talking about the Sunrises Hetherabad in general. And like, what an extraordinary franchise, Dan Norkross. I mean, they've only been around since 2012. In fact, 2013 was when they made their first appearance in the IPL. And they managed to hit the playoffs in that year. And then they managed to win that whole thing for the first time in 2016. One of the few teams that took to the tournament immediately. And, you know, they weren't out of their depth.

We saw a few franchises. kind of stick around for a couple of seasons or make guest appearances or be replacement franchises. But, you know, this is one that's come in and become a bit of a mainstay. Well, I think what they've done so well is they've managed to get leaders in their outfit really early. And that's one of the things you've got to do. If you're going to be a new franchise, you're coming up against experienced teams out there who know the lie of the land. They know how the IPL is. They've gone out there and they've got people like Kane Williamson, people like David Warner,

who've been around the block, you know, hugely experienced, but big, big star. So it sort of gives them like an insight. They're almost experienced in the tournament before they've even played a game, which I think is really, really important. And they've got this wonderfully explosive style. You know, so much is built on that opening partnership and that top order. Berto, Warner, Manish Pandey. It's a terrific looking top order.

And they've also had, in the past, it's an incredible fast bowlers. Dale Stain has appeared for them. You know, they're an explosive outfit. You can really sense there's a really strong bond, a good camaraderie in the team. There really is. And, you know, you talk about, like, pedigree and history and achievement, you know,

David Warner, who's, you know, part of this extraordinary opening partnership with Johnny Beirsto. He's been the Orange Cap winner three times for the Sunrises Heather Budd. In 2015, 2017 and 2019, the Orange Cap, of course, being the top run scorer in the tournament, which I quite like, actually. I like the idea of an Orange Cap, you know, or like honoring the person who's the top run scorer with something specific. It's one of the IPL innovations I'm actually a big fan of. A bit unfair that, you know, Sunrises play in Orange. I mean, it's almost like it's sort of like determined in advance. I mean, and you mentioned David Warner there. One of things

happened this week is he passed 5,000 runs in the IPL. He became the first overseas player to do that. And you think about the incredible overseas batting names in the IPL, A.B. DeVilleas, Chris Gale, you know, David Warner got there first. And our next guest will certainly contribute to some of those milestones. So let's kick off this Sunrises Heatherabad special and meet the man himself, one of the finest leg spinners in the world. Rasheed Khan. Rashid, how are you? I'm very good. How are you? I'm great. Thank you. You know, it's very nice that you ask, Rashid. Not everybody asks, but you ask, and that's why you're so polite, and that's why we love you. How are you enjoying it out there in Dubai? To be honest, it has been good so far. It's

tough to be in the bubble. It's a bit different. But so far, I think the most important, and I've been doing well in the competition so far bowling well so it makes it a bit good for me as well so yeah it's good so far can I ask about being in the bubble with the team because you know you're really close together with the Sunrises Hyderabad team and you've been with them now for a long time since 2017 so it's that it's your team do you feel that this has helped kind of bond the team together like you get to know each other that much better

exactly that is really helping me you know when you're having that kind of born with the team from the last three, four years, and that helps you to perform in the game as well because you don't have that extra pressure like, you know, when you are new in the team and you're always thinking about if I don't do well in the game, what will be the reaction, what will be the reaction of the fans, coaching stuff, players, and all these things you have in the mind. But playing with them from the last three years, I think it makes it more easier for me to go and do my business and perform well for the team.

is something which really helps me and we have the best combination like as a coaching stop, we have Lakshman Sir Tom Modi we had last three years and Molitor and now TB is here so I think we have all the best combination now Brad Haddon is there

in the battle as well so I think it really helps me like you know being with one team and that happened with me in all the leagues like with the strikers I'm I'm not leaving them with the Sussex you know so So it helps you a lot as a player when you keep yourself with one team and put that extra pressure away from you and that helps you like to perform each in every game.

And I suppose actually because you are performing so well, those franchises really want to keep you. I mean, we see a lot of people go from team to team. But as you just mentioned, it's very noticeable. You play for Sussex, play for Adelaide, you play for Sunrises. You're very loyal to those franchises. Yeah, I love it when I find the best people. want them to leave it until they tell me that thank you that was happened with the strikers as well like most of the people they are messaging me calling me about leaving the strikers i was like no as long

they won me i'm always there for them and when they tell me thank you that i can i can leave them that's something which i have always in the mind you know once i get used to with people and with the coaching staff and everyone, I think it's a bit hard for me to leave them. I never had those extra thing in the mind that going to different leagues and different teams each and every year and playing for different franchises. I think I love it being with one team and that helps me to keep fresh and fine and being lucky as well to be retained by each and every team. Particularly at the sunrises, you know, a lot of the hype is around the incredible opening

partnership you guys have with David Warner and Johnny Birsto. I imagine you get to bowl to them in the nets every now and again. What is it like, you know, as a teammate, bowling to these two incredible explosive batsmen in the nets? It's always great, like, you know, bowling to someone like David Warner, Johnny Best, or Ken Williamson, I think it's a great opportunity for me to get something like, you know, feedback from them, how it's going, what should I do? And especially while bowling against Ken Williamson, you know, I always enjoy no bowling. And we keep talking as well during. So, what should be the right length? What was the length of that ball?

And he keeps telling me, and he keeps telling me all those things, what should I do? So it really helps me. As a bowler, it really helps you. And after the game, we used to discuss, like, what should I have been done for me to get much better. But mostly, I get the positive comments from them, but still, they're really helping me. So as a bowler, that really helps you to get such kind of feeder from the world-class batsmen, David Warner, Johnny Bester, who are the most dangerous players in T20 format. And then having them in the team, it's a good sign for me as a bowler, as a spinner.

And I think they play the spin really well. They dominated it really well. So it really helped me from the last three, four years. You mentioned that Johnny Bester, of course, he's your wicketkeeper as well. So he has to try to read all your variations. Do you like have to go through these with him? Like, when you're practicing, you're sort of like saying, this is what to look out for, this is the slider, this is the doogly.

I mean, he must have to get to know you really, really well. Exactly, yeah. For the first year when he came to the squad, I think we had the discussion about what I'm bowling and what are my variations and how I bowl and all those stuff we discussed that year as well. But then this year, again, you know, it's a long time between that, on Gabe and this year when we get together,

as well. I think he told me that tell me what's the new plan and what's the new variation you're bowling and we discussed that as well like this is what I'm bowling and this is how it's working for me. So yeah, we used to discuss even if I go to other franchises as well, I keep discussing these things with the keeper just to make sure like during the game we don't make any kind of mistake like which hurt the team. So yeah, we used to discuss all the variations and it's helping us in the game. come to have to play Johnny Best, though, for Afghanistan, maybe against England or in a different league. You're going to have to, like, have one variation he doesn't know about so that you can get

him out with it. I always have that kind of few balls, which I haven't bowed yet. My wrong ones, I haven't bowled my old wrong ones. So far, I'm just bowling one. I have three wrong ones, but I'm still working on them in the next. It's not fully ready for the game. I'm working on them in the leg spin as well but still you know as a bowler you have to bowl the best length to him which is his weakness and that is something i have in my mind you know it's all it's not just about to make him confuse with the leg in wrong one but most importantly is the length as long you bowling with that length in line i think it helps you to get him out so against such kind of baseman you have to minimize the loose deliveries and you have to bowl the best deliveries as many as possible

and that's the only way you can get him out. Is that difficult, like, trying to keep things a little bit separate because you're playing a lot of franchise cricket, but Afghanistan, you know, maybe not at the moment, but generally they're playing a lot of cricket as well now. It's getting, their schedule is getting fuller. Is that difficult to balance those things in terms of your repertoire? Not at all.

I think it just, I just keep it simple for myself, you know. Whoever I play for, I just keep it simple and do the basics right. and that might be my success as well that I keep repeating what I'm doing rather than to do different things I'm playing for Afghanistan I have to do different things now and playing for the league I have to

so I think it's all the same game and I give my 100 person whoever I play a club game sometimes when I'm playing like a scenario game with the teammates in Afghanistan and I always give my 100 person I dive in the field so they're always telling me you have to be very careful

I have to give it because that is something which helps me to in the game as well. If I keep that energy in this game, it helps me in the proper game as well. So I never bring changes in myself. I always give it the same energy, with the same everything. And I play for my national team, for the franchises. And that might be the reason behind my success as well. Sunrise has got a lot of sort of leadership figures in their side. They've got you, of course, as you mentioned, Kane Williamson, Ahmed Nabi and the like.

So I'm conscious of the fact that you've captained Afghanistan, very young age, one-day games and test matches. Are you feeding off the guys in the Sunrises team, getting tips on captaincy, learning more about captaincy from them? Exactly, you know, I always trying my best to get something from them, and especially Nabi, my teammate, he's always helped me when I was a captain of the national team. We had the best discussion regarding the teammates in how to lead the team and how to be in the team. while captaining in how you have to have yourself during the games and it's all those things which really help me and i'll always try my best to discuss this thing with the ken williamson as well and he's someone who is really uh helping me and he wants to share his experience and uh yeah in the past i have discussed this with the vera as well when we were having a shooting in i think

in Mumbai for the IPL so that time i was with him as well and we discussed in what should we do and what is a mindset and stuff. So he had the best suggestions for me that time as well. And it's always great to be with those senior players who lead the team. So just to get his experience, his mindset and how he goes with the team. And I think for me as a young story, it really helps me even a single world of that might change me a lot and that might help me to lead the team in future. You're part of this incredible trend of quick leg spinners.

In fact, I would say you in the modern era have really popularized that quick leg. I remember the last time we spoke, you told me about Ahe the Fridi and Anil Kumblai, and these were big influences on you. But, like, how does it feel now to be an influence on a whole generation of young cricketers who like to bowl quick leg spin? I'm feeling so proud, you know, I think from Afghanistan and getting all the attention every year. I think it's something which makes me so proud, and it's a kind of dream for me as well. Like, sometime when I'm thinking and I'm like, oh, yeah, before five years, five, six years, where I was. At the moment where I am, it's something very special for me. And I think I feel so, so lucky and so proud to be in this stage.

Because a few years back when I was watching all my other favorite leg spinners on the TV and even never dreamed about to be someone who in the future, being someone's role model, I think it's totally different. Like, I have no words how to describe that feeling, how I'm feeling. And yeah, it's a proud moment for me. me and from our whole country as well. It's something very special. So the most important thing is I keep this continue and hopefully do more well and that might inspire more youngsters. You are doing it. It's ridiculously well. This tournament is another one that's been great for you.

You've got 10 wickets. You've only going at 5.3 and over. What I want to understand is how do you see your role? Because it's clear that batsmen from other teams, when they know that you've still got overs up their sleeve, you know, they're concerned, they're worried about how to play you out. So do you see yourself as needing to take wickets to you a strike bowler, do you think when you're coming on in those middle overs? Or are you thinking, you know, no, I'm a containing bowler? When I'm bowling, I think I have only one thing in my mind to bowl my best length and line, you know, that is my success as well. If I bowl there, I might get wickets, I might get dot-bowls. So that is something which I'm mostly focusing on, you know.

team always want a wicket from me but to me I just keep it simple for myself. No, forget the wickets, forget everything I just need to bowl well. That is something which is more important for me rather than to take too many wickets. If I bowl well,

definitely I will get the positive result and that's what I'm focusing on a lot as well. Right lane, right area I bowl according to the batsman weakness and it really helped me so far. I think that is something in this competition I really focused on this year, like, you know, forget about, I get two wickets, three wickets.

I think the more I bowl in one line in length, I think the better the result I will get. So if I keep thinking about taking wickets for the team and this and that, I think it might put extra pressure on me and I might do something different and it might affect my bowling and economy as well. So I kept it simple for myself, just bowl there, mix it up for the bathroom, make it more tougher for them and as soon you do that, I think it's always, result is in your hand. I think you get the positive result and you might get too many wickets

and you might get dot balls. In T20 cricket, dot ball is a wicket. So the more I bowl do dot balls, I think it helps from the other end as well. Like, whenever I bowl a good hour and I get a wicket from the other end, I feel like I put that pressure on and he tried to do something different

from the other end and that gave me the wickets. So, yeah, that's something which I always have in my mind. Do you have advice, Rashid, for all these players because what we've seen with these T20 leagues is amazing players that wouldn't normally get the spotlight come through. So particularly players who don't necessarily play for test playing nation. So I'm thinking of someone like Sandeep Lamichane from Nepal and other players who play for countries

that they don't often get to play international cricket or mix with these players. How important are these leagues like franchise cricket in bringing this talent to the world and getting it seen and broadening the interest of cricket? To be honest, the leagues are so important. And where I am at the moment, and I think especially IPL really helped me. When I was playing for Afghanistan, I was hardly getting that time to play against the big teams, big names.

And you become a good player when you play against the best. And then you realize that what else I should do to get much better. And that time, you know that how good I am and how much more work out is needed to be much better than this. and that happens when you play against the best. You know, when you don't play against the best, you hardly get that an opportunity to know yourself and to work on your decisions. When I came to an IPL for the first time in 17, I think,

I have seen all the players. I have seen their workout, the fitness, hard work in the nets, all these things I have seen and then I realized how much more workout I need to do to be much better and to be more consistent. I think that is something which really helped me. I went to Australia, play Big Vash. I have seen that condition.

I have seen the players there. How much they work out. Even they haven't played for their national sides. But still, the way they were working on their skills, fitness, they died. Everything was there. I was like, guys, they haven't played for the national team yet. But still, how much they're working and they're taking care of each and everything. So as a player, it really helps you when you go to the bigger stage.

and especially IPL, you won't find a single person who hasn't played for the national team. It makes it more tougher competition as well in the best competition in the world. And definitely, like, Sandeep Lama Chane, now he become a much better bowler than he was. You know, we played together in CPL. We were discussing each and everything, and I think he improved a lot from the last two years. I think he bowled really well in CPL. He was much quicker than he was. And we discussed this with him as well during the CPL and he said, like, it's all come from working on my skills in my fitness.

I think he said that fitness is something which I wasn't thinking a lot about before. At the moment, when I think about it, I think it really helped me as a bowler. And these leagues are always there for you to make you much better player. So hopefully, hopefully we're expecting some Afghan batsmen to come to these big stages. Yeah, we have the spinners, but we're expecting some batsmen to come and get that experience, you know. You can only get that experience from these weeks when you have two months of the competition and you have a best time to get the experience from the best. So we hardly play against the big teams.

Against Australia, we played in the last five years. We played against them only twice in those World Cups, and 15 World Cup and 19 World Cup. same as the case with England and New Zealand. So if you play against big teams twice in five, six years, I think it doesn't make any sense as a player. It's not going to help you to be a better player. So hopefully we get some game against them and the rest of the players,

they get the same opportunity to be better and better. That's it. I hope everybody was paying attention, England, Australia, all the big teams, come on. You've got to organize some Afghanistan cricket players. tours. Rashid, thank you so much for your time. It was always fun talking to you and catching up with you and, you know, we wish you all the very best and I'm sure, you know, Dan, Norcross echoes that. Yeah, thanks ever so much for Joyce. And honestly, watching you bowl is one of the

highlights of my life at the moment. So keep it going. Much appreciate it. Amazing. Look after yourself, Rashid. Slamuk. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Take care, guys. Thank you. Do you know, he's so polite, Rashid Khan. I like this. And he's one of the few cricketers that always asks you how you are as well. You know, always, every single time, I'll always take the time to ask you how you are. And that's nice, isn't it? Well, it's just, I never really know what's that. I mean, what's the answer? Well, I'm not as good as you. I'm not in Dubai. I'm sat on my bed in London. It's very nice of him. But honestly, look, what a great interview gave us. He had so much to say. Fascinating about spin bowling, I thought. Really great about how he works with Johnny Birstow.

And I love the fact that, you know, he's got, he's got balls that he's not yet revealed. And that's always exciting, isn't it? It's always leg spinners. they've always got these balls that they're working on in the nets and we wait to see what they're going to be like. And just that emphasis on keeping things simple. Like you really do, when you're watching and analysing leg spin, like, you know, when we commentate on the IPL or any cricket and a leg spinner comes on, you know, as a commentator, you sort of lick your lips because you've got,

oh, I can't wait to get into the drift and the turn and the technique and the thought process that must be going through this bowler's mind. And, oh, does he have the weight of this series? Does he have the memory of this match? Nope, Rashid Khan just goes in and bowls. ball to ball, ball by ball. He's not thinking about anything else, keeping things simple and is immensely successful.

So maybe there's something to that. How you keep it simple when you're a leg spinner and you've got a million different variations is incredible, isn't it? The clarity of thought that he's got. But one of the other really lovely things I thought came through is that a lot of the time, I think, people have this stereotype of people who play in T20 franchises

as mercenaries. You know, they'll go from one franchise to the other. What came through really loud and clear with Rashid is that for him, the teams that he plays for, Sunrises Hyderabad, he's the only IPL team he's played for, Sussex in England, Adelaide Strikers in Australia, their teams that he cares about, just as he cares for the Afghan national team.

I think that that's something that fans could do with tuning into a little bit more, actually, that these guys, when they're playing for their franchises, are not just there for the money, they're there for that team. Absolutely, when you consider Afghanistan don't get to play a lot of cricket at the moment, And it's perfectly reasonable for someone to seek out as many T20 teams as possible just to make a living. But you're absolutely right. And those notes about players from other countries, you know, using T20 franchise leagues to improve your technique, playing against the best to make yourself better, right there it shows you exactly what the value of leagues like the IPL is.

That came through loud and clear with both Rashid and with Johnny Berto, didn't it? that the quality and the players that you're playing against is just absolutely top-notch. Especially if they're King Williamson. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. I'm delighted to say that we're joined by star we can keep a bounce from Johnny Bears. I have to ask Johnny,

what's it like being surrounded by these huge superstars in your team at Sunrises? Yeah, I think that teams obviously from around the world, teammates from around the world with different experiences. So whether that be rash, he's played a lot of T20 competitions around the world now, hasn't he? Even though he's only 22, and I think a lot of people forget that. His knowledge of his T20 cricket and life in many ways is fantastic. Then you've obviously got Daley opening the batting with him who scored, I think over 9,500 T20 runs.

And then you've got the calm, cool head of Kane, like you say, combined with the talented Indian players that we have within the group. So there's the wealth of different experiences that you're able to try and, pick the best bits out of and learn from. And like you say, there is a good camaraderie around. There's been a couple of close games that haven't gone our way where we should potentially have won. But look, that's part and parcel of the competition. How has that opening partnership with David Warner gone?

Because obviously, I mean, I think it's fair to say you've not always been best friends. But, like, what's that relationship like? And how did it kind of transition over time? Look, it's the second year that we've been fortunate enough to play together. So it wasn't anything about it, to be quite honest with you. Naturally, when you're playing against each other, especially with it being England and Australia, there's rivalry. That goes back hundreds of years, the rivalry there.

And if there wasn't rivalry in professional sport, if there wasn't competitive edges in professional sport, then it wouldn't be professional sport. And that goes all the way through to village levels, not just professional levels. So there are going to be rivalries. There are going to be people that have a competitive edge, and that's what brings the best out of people. But look, opening the bat in has been really good fun. It's been something that I hadn't expected to go as well as it had. some ways, but with the experiences of, say, the last three years in whiteball cricket with England, my confidence in that format is good. You and David Warder are both fantastic between

the wickets. I mean, it's ridiculously quick runners. You actually really enjoy that part of it. You know when you're batting with David Warner, you are going to be running the tightest of singles, the tightest of twos. You seem to really enjoy that. Look, I think that having that kind of combined relationship really helps, because if you are playing on a pitch, we're playing again, to bowler that is bowling well and you know that you're able to scramble the twos and if you get a couple of twos and then a boundary you've suddenly got eight off the over.

So it kind of takes the pressure off in that way because there'll be similar match-up so it might be that the match-up with the ball that might suit David Moore than it might suit me. It might be that vice versa. So being able to change the strike so then the ball has to change their plan of attack is really handy.

And of course, left-hand right-hand combination. With England, it's a right-hand-right-hand combination. But with David Warner, that presumably affects the bowler as well, different lengths that they have to bowl to the two of you? Would you say that you are very different kinds of players and that that affects the bowlers when they're bowling at you both? Yeah, we are, but at the same time, I think the partnership with Jason and I

is similar, like everyone's spoken about, the partnership that I've got with Jason in one-day cricket, and it's very similar. His strengths are slightly different to mine. Similarly, with Davies, his strengths are different to mine. And that's, if you look at all of the opening partnerships, over so many years, there's always different areas in which complement each other, and that goes all the way down, you look at the most successful partnerships,

whether it be just opening the batting or whether it be Coley and DeVilliers, whether it be Langer and Hayden, whoever it may be throughout the years, there was always strengths and weaknesses that complement each other within that partnership. Are you aware that your four runs behind David Warner? I mean, do you have a kind of competition

within the season to see who's going to have most runs? No, actually, we don't. I think he's surpassed 500 runs for the last seven years or something ridiculous in the IPL, And I think that's a some record in itself. But no, to be up there and to be alongside him with the runs, to be up there in the runs in the competition, full stop, is something that hopefully can continue throughout the rest of the competition.

To be contributing and hopefully winning games for Sunrises is the thing that will stand as in good stead. So hopefully that can continue. Hopefully we both keep scoring runs and hopefully come the end of the tournament, we're still up there. I went Tarsie, since you brought up that opening partnership with Jason Roy, like, you know, my favorite example of it, and I'm sure a lot of people's favorite example

was that match in Nottingham in 2018 where you guys set the world record for highest ODI total, 481. Incredible. I was re-watching it on the ECB's YouTube channel the other day. It never gets old, just watching that. How long do you think till a team breaks

the 500-run barrier in the ODI cricket forum? I don't know. There's the honest answer. I don't know when it happens, it happens, and it'll be a special game. It'll be a very special day. Where it happens, again, It's very conditions dependent, which two teams in the game it happens against.

Well, you can hedge your bets wherever you want to hedge it. But hopefully, hopefully I'll be involved in it because it will be fireworks from the start. And it'll be an amazing, amazing spectacle. And then again, hopefully there's crowds involved and they're able to see it and win this. Well, I'll tell you one place where I think it might happen is Sharger. It's quite a nice small boundaries. You've played there a bit. How would you characterize the three different venues in the,

IPL, you know, when we're watching on, we're always going to be quite mindful of those different venues. How do you characterize them? Yeah, I think that there are three very different venues, like you say. You've got Abu Dhabi, which is very open. There's a lot more wind in Aber Dhabi that sweeps across the ground. There's been a lot more due as well, I feel. That comes into consideration as well, whether or not you're batting or bowling first. The square boundaries there, dependent upon the wind can be quite large. In many ways, the pitches in Abu Dhabi, from what I've been hearing, have been slightly better than the ones in Dubai. Dubai, you've obviously got a completely different stadium in itself, very much a bowl,

so there's no open sides or anything. Yes, the wind does get through a little bit, but generally, whether it be an afternoon game or in the evening, it's undercover. So there isn't so much in respect of the shadows cover the most of the ground. And it's starting to turn slightly more, like we've seen other last couple of games. Charger is naturally the smallest of the three venues. But I think at Sharjia, you can also get caught up in thinking that you've just got to keep hitting sixes, keep hitting sixes and forget about the other other bits. We saw Kings 11 bowl really well and restrict RCB to a good total. And then you know that when you've got a couple of guys that can go out and score boundaries, like we saw with K.L.

Ruhl and Chris Gail coming in and chasing that, it can change on its head within a couple of overs. And we saw that as well in our game when we played Mumbai there. Obviously, they finished with Pollard, Hardik Pandia, Kroonar Pandia. And I think there was about 60 runs scored off the last three overs, which obviously changes it on its head. So they're all very different venues, but all very interesting in their own right because you've got to play in potentially different ways

and there's always bits in it for the bowlers. You're an enormously experienced international cricketer. So you've obviously got around international cricket a lot. How do you characterize the difference in intensity or the difference in quality? Or is there one between IPL and international cricket? I think it's very different. I think that it's difficult to compare the two. The IPL, there are no weak teams at all.

Everyone like we've seen in this competition beats everybody. When you are fortunate enough to have four of the best overseas from around the world playing in each team against each other, and the strength in depth that the Indian cricket team has, India cricket full stop has. It is bound to make it a very, very difficult competition. So I think comparing it to international cricket is quite tricky. I mean, you only have to look at some of the people that aren't playing in each of the teams. And, yeah, they walk into many of the international teams, don't they?

So that just shows the quality that there is on showing the IPA. Do you think there's any major lessons to be learned by England or indeed any other countries from the IPL success? Look, I think that it's very difficult to compare different countries to India when it comes to competitions. Cricket, obviously, in India is the national sport, is the sport that is played by everybody. So I think comparing it to, say, England,

where football's potentially played more than cricket is a very difficult spectacle to compare the two from because you get 50, 60,000 people at every single game In India, you get people lying in the streets, people waiting outside the hotels, people literally live and breathe for the sport. And look, if we could potentially get to that stage with a hundred or wherever it may be, granted, there's not the stadiums that they have over in India, but if we can be selling out each of the games like we do for international cricket, then we'd be going a long

way to making a sport as big as it can be. We saw how it captivated the country in 2019 with the World Cup. We saw it in 2005, but the ashes. We've seen it previously with that. and hopefully we can get to that stage. You touched on the 2019 World Cup there. It was the most incredible day at Lords. I mean, entirely unforgettable.

That one, you were an outrageous outfit, by any chance? I was wearing an outrageous outfit, yeah, but I did a lot of crying that day. I'm a bit disappointed you've got a plain blue jumper on, to be honest with you. It's not like it. It's winter, isn't it? It's winter, you know. I don't have my Christmas jumper on, yeah?

That would be wrong, wouldn't it? But just thinking about, you know, you're involved in that incredible day. You've obviously still got a massive appetite for international cricket. What's your hopes first in the short term for England and what cricket might be played and then longer term with England? As to what cricket might be played, who knows? We don't know with the pandemic that's going on. So we're hopeful that the South Africa tour does go ahead.

I think everyone's hopeful because having international cricket being played around the world is very, very important. Not just for English cricket, but for world cricket. and the cricket in all of the nations that play it. To get that on the televisions around the world, it will be very, very important because then that filters down to counties, which then filters down to grassroots cricket. So we're hopeful that that goes ahead before Christmas.

There's obviously the tours after Christmas that are scheduled. I think that there's a lot of discussions that's going on behind the scenes, and I'm sure that they're hopefully coming to some sort of agreements with that. Where they're played, how long they're played, what formats are played. that's all for people that know about all of that stuff we don't need to be thinking about it so look I think we'll just have to wait and see as to what happens with the virus

with the pandemic and take it from there Johnny thanks ever so much for joining us we've kept you over time which I'm very great before so thank you for hanging on I'm going to be watching even if you're not I'm going to be counting the race for runs between you and David Warner all the way through to the end of this IPL and I will be rooting for you whether you like it or not

so please don't let me down I would like you to win that one. Thanks ever so much for joining us. Have a great rest of the IPL. We'll all be watching here, covering it on the BBC as well. So go well. Yes, thanks a lot. And thanks to all your support as well.

It's much appreciated and hope everyone's all right and staying safe and we'll have you back home. Cheers, Johnny. Thanks, Johnny. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Oh, Artif wasn't Johnny fantastic? I mean, you know, he gave us so much insight in there. Obviously, we were going to talk to him about that opening partner.

shit with David Warner, which has blossomed and grown over the last couple of years. And you went straight in there, you know, you said, you know, sort of unlikely friendship. But, you know, he was strong on that, wasn't he? He kicked back and sort of explained, well, you know, in international cricket, you're bound to have these kind of enmities, if you like, this kind of tension. But, you know, when you get together in an IPL franchise, a different kind of relationship can grow and blossom. You know what, Dan, it's been the most disappointing part of this IPL for me is how friendly the English and Australian players are with one another, especially with like 17 Ashes series coming in the next three years. Like how can they be friends that

close? They've got to like, they've got to distance them. Don't they know what's at stake? No, you're right. It's quite, it was quite, it's quite nice actually to see that they're, you know, that friendship, that chemistry that's blossoming on the pitch is, it's the works the same way off the pitch. I think that's largely due to that love of cricket that he kept referring to. Well, absolutely. And also, they're players with, as he said, contrasting styles, but both of them scamper between the wickets. I mean, their games complement each other absolutely perfectly, don't they? The other thing I like, I loved your question about when we're going to see this, I get 500 in an ODI. You believe in this, don't you? You

think this is going to happen soon. You want to be there. I do. I do that. I mean, the reason I asked him that is, you know, it seems like such a long time ago. It's only a couple of years ago when England did the unthinkable when they hit that 480 plus score. Like, it was extraordinary how it happened and you forget how big a part of that Johnny Beirstow was. You know, you got this fantastic start for England at the top and then he was supported Alex Hales and Owen Morgan and everybody

kind of chipped in as they must if you're going to get 500 runs, but it kind of seemed like they were going to do it then and I know Nottingham is a more forgiving ground than most, perhaps in England at least but I was subtly, I was sort of quietly surprised that it didn't happen during the last World Cup

but I really do think that it will happen soon and And I wouldn't be surprised if Johnny Beirsto was a part of it. I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, the IPL is creating those kind of hitters as well, isn't it? We're seeing it, especially during this tournament. And in Sharja, where scores of 200 plus, what we're talking about here is 10 and over. That's what we want, and you want to be able to sustain 10 and over.

And I think Sharj is a little bit like Nottingham in the sense. It's got quite short boundaries. It's ideally set up for it. I was interested to hear what Johnny was saying about the venues, because one of the things that we perhaps don't appreciate from home is like the wind. He was really keen to talk about the wind, wasn't he? Not much wind in Dubai, lots of wind in Abu Dhabi. So, like, we should factor that into what we're looking at. You know, keep your eye on which way that wind is going.

Because if Chris Gale gets to hit the ball with the wind, it's going way beyond. It's going way beyond the road. We saw this week a ball hit the cars, didn't we, and Sharjah, as it was knocked out of the ground. They could go beyond the traffic. Who knows? Well, every team's got their big hitters as well. This is another thing that he said that I picked up on, which is there are no weak teams in the IPL. You know, it's interesting because, you know, just at the start of this conversation,

you and I were talking about, you know, how certain teams have pulled away. And, you know, we think of CSK and Mumbai Indians and maybe one or two other teams sort of as being the top end of the IPR. And then you've got people who, like, you know, with the greatest respect, teams like the Kings of Lebanon, Punjab, who don't always, you know, always feature in the top floor or win the thing. So I like this reaffirming of that idea that there are no weak teams. They are quite, you know, evenly matched. You don't see one-sided contests very often. So, you know, small grounds or different grounds, like whatever it is,

it doesn't favour any one team more than the other. No, and what really came through loud and clear there was, I mean, he wasn't been disparaging about international cricket. But I think the point he was kind of making was that you'll find often with matchups between different countries, you know, one side will be strong. than the other and quite a lot stronger. So you will tend to get a series of perhaps uneven games, whereas in the IPL, because the sides are so evenly matched, every game can have, who knows what the outcome is going to be. I mean, you've talked about that there. Some of the

sides lower down the table at the moment and sort of slightly being cut a drift from the top sides, people like Rajasthan, CSK, they have got some of the biggest names in world cricket, like some Josh Butler, Ben Stokes, Steve Smith. So you know, they're going to go on a run at some point and they're going to win games. And the teams near the top know that's going to happen. So the pressure stays on throughout. And that's why you get this fantastic spectacle. You know, a part of that is because it's not just the overseas talent. We're seeing, you know, some great Indian spinners. The depth in talent of young Indian talent is frightening for the rest of the world. I mean, in terms of international cricket, the only

consolation for everyone else is that India can only pick 11 players at once. Well, absolutely. I mean, their second 11 would be extraordinary. Well, you know, all of this, when you look at all of these teams, there's so many familiar names to people who don't necessarily follow Indian domestic cricket, like, you know, the Ranji Trophy or, you know, all that kind of stuff. Like, you know, we still know a lot of these players. We know who Shriya is, even though he's very sparingly played for India. And then you've got all these players that have been capped by India, but, you know, but you see more often in the IPL. And it's extraordinary the depth that they have, that they're this really spoiled for resources at the moment. And that pressure, that high quality at the very top is just brewing more and more talent for India, which is probably one of the major reasons for their success as well. I've got to tell you, like, you know those players are doing well and this is one of my favorite parts of the chat with Johnny is his awareness of everybody's statistics. It's incredible, isn't it? I mean, obviously, I think partly the bubble helps with that because, you know, they come back from training and they're in their bubble. So what are you going

to do? It was like when we talked to Nicholas Poran, wasn't it a couple of weeks ago. And it was clear that, you know, he thought the bubble was really working for him because it meant he could taught cricket, absorb cricket, play cricket, train cricket, live cricket, you know. And you get the feeling that actually the players in this tournament will know more about each other and more about their own games. I've come out of this tournament with better cricket smarts than probably in any other tournament that's taken place. And, you know, he does have excellent recall, Dan, I've got to say, because he looked at your

plain blue jumper and because we spoke on a Zoom call and, you know, he immediately picked out Dan's plain blue jumper. was surprised at his contrast from last year's super-colourful outfit when you previously met Johnny Bister at the World Cup last year. But part of you, Dan, had to be thrilled that you remembered. Part of me is thrilled, but I thought the, part of the idea of being on radio, Artif, is that I get to wear what I want. You know, it's not like all the TV guys, not like poor Odisha and Daly when they're on TV.

They've got to make sure they look smart and, you know, nothing too flamboyant. I go on radio so that I can wear whatever I want, and now I'm being called out on it by Johnny Besto. One thing I would ask, though, is because if this is a reputation that's going to hang around me, I can't afford to spend six months in a blue jumper. So if anybody out there, and I'm thinking about you here, Artif, maybe you could, like, knit me something a little colorful to sort of see me through October, November kind of thing. My winter wardrobe is very drab.

I've got a lot of lime green, Dan. That'll be coming away. I've got a lot of lime green and various shades of green, as you can imagine. But you know what? We'll try and pick up some pink last year next year, because I'll be. I know you were really pleased with that Rajasthan Royals uniform. We're definitely going to get some pink going on for sure. And we're definitely going to get more of these podcasts going on.

It's been so much fun just to talk about the IPL to commentate on it as well. And with a few weeks left before the very end, who's going to win it, Dan? Putting you on the spot. Oh, well, I mean, the side that usually goes out hard and fast doesn't win it. And that this year is Delhi Capitals. So, you know, what I'm going to do is I'm going to eliminate. I'm going to go, it's not going to be Delhi Capitals. Sides winning it, two years running, it's not going to be Mumbai Indians.

Is it this year that finally RCB are going to do it? Because they finally put together this wonderful batting lineup that they've always had. But they've got behind them now a really firing bowling attack that consistently does what Koli wants them to do. I wonder, I wonder. And wouldn't it be kind of weird of all the tournaments for RCB to win, them to win it behind closed doors because if Coley had won this tournament in India it would be absolute chaos in the final

but I just wonder I think it's written in the stars it's RCB's year yeah I mean very well could be it's an IT town Bangalore so I think they'll be more than happy to it's the kind of time that's more likely to be at home watching than in the stadium watching I imagine and I say that with no disrespect at all to any Bangalore fans out there I still think because of the shifting a little bit

in the tournament of momentum I think, I think, oh, cut they're going to come through, man. No, do I do think they're going to come through. Having seen them kind of just get over the line a couple of times from positions where they really shouldn't have done and just sort of slightly trying to come together. And finally, having Owen Morgan installed as their captain, I think that's going to get them home.

Well, that's quite persuasive. And now they've got Lockhe Ferguson in the lineup and they're actually playing him. You know, it often happens that the sides that come through that find their momentum around about the 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th games they go through into the knockouts with belief. You could be right, Artif, you could be right. Well, I might be right, Dan.

We're going to have to wait and see. Well, the good news is we're going to have full match commentary on five live sports extra covering the tournament all the way through to the final. A fantastic lineup of commentators are right there to guide you through the most exciting action that is out there right now, the IPL, so many great teams, so many great players, so many great matchups. It's going to be very, very exciting. And tune into the next edition of TMS, does this.

the IPL. I'm Ardif Noirz, alongside Dan Norcross saying, have a great time, everybody.