Test Match Special - Tuffers and Vaughan: Jofra has shifted the momentum

Episode Date: August 19, 2019

Phil and Michael talk about the momentum shift in the Ashes series after Jofra Archer’s hostile bowling at Lord’s, which will ‘send shivers down the rest of the Australian batting unit’. Michael has a warning for Joe Root over how much he uses Archer, and says that facing him in the nets should be banned for English batsmen. Plus we speak to brain injury association Headway, who have some strong words for Cricket Australia over their decision to allow Steve Smith to bat again after being struck by Archer.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello. I felt there are. mate. How's your Monday morning?

It's all right. You don't sound very spright. Bit tired. It was a long test? It was a long test, Mike, when it was all that rain delays and pressure and everything, excitement and all those long tests, mate. So I'm a little bit weary this morning. First day juice does no one any favours.

No, it doesn't. It doesn't indeed. It should be barred. I know, I know. Why don't we play all the overs out? One, day five. well no yeah well yeah why don't we play them out on the first days as you said earlier you know what I mean they don't bother playing all the

over's on the first couple of days one two three and four are they no rubbish about that four they want to get six 30 finish so everyone get to the pub yes well not a bad idea yeah correct keep it that way up's what I say anyway should we get Ellie involved yes why not I wonder if she's as tired as we are well this is five life sport toughers and Vaughn's

Well, what a match at Lords. What a debut from Joffre Archer, Philip Tufton. Can you remember anyone having an impact quite like that? Well, I suppose it's got to be someone like Kevin Peterson. I mean, the intent he showed, the way he grabbed the game by the scuff of the neck and just said, this is my stage. He was absolutely box office. Well, Michael Vaughn, it was a draw, but has the momentum swung just a bit back towards England? Well, yeah, I think it's more. than a bit. I think that spell on Saturday afternoon, Archer v. Smith, it seems to have changed the whole momentum of this year's ashes. Then I woke up this morning and I realised the Oz's we still 1-0 up. We'll talk England, we'll talk Archer, we'll talk concussioning cricket after

Steve Smith sat out the last day of the Lord's test. We'll also look ahead to the Headingley test, which starts on Thursday. Tuffers and Vaughn's Cricket Show on 5 Live. Well, let's start with Joffra Archer. I'll tell you what, guys. You think of Shane Warns Ball of the Century, don't you? You think of people who've made an impact, but I can't remember anybody who's had an impact, not just on their Ashes debut, but on their test debut like that. Well, absolutely right, Ellie.

I mean, the pace, the skill, the calmness, the coolness. He just looks like he's playing just another game of cricket. This is an Ashes series. This is his debut. He's at the home of cricket. He's taken the new ball. He's got the ball moving either way. He's bowled from either end.

And then he's got the ball in his hand on Saturday afternoon when Australia is starting to get on top and dominate, particularly Steve Smith. He gets whacked through extra cover by Steve Smith, like a Caribbean S shot, and he went, uh-uh, you ain't doing that to me. And he just suddenly produced a spell. I think that's going to be talked about for many, many years. England, you know, and Joe Rook, particularly the captain,

has found a bowler that will be held to cause chaos in all conditions around the world. Yeah, it was amazing, wasn't it? I mean, edgier seat stuff, wasn't it? I mean, usually the bar's empty, which is quite difficult. when a batsman comes out, don't they? But when he had the ball in his hand, everyone was just glued on that field.

They couldn't take their eyes off it. It was something special. I haven't seen that for about 30-odd years, 20 years, I reckon. Yeah, you're right. I mean, after lunch on Saturday, when people are maybe having a little bit of a snooze, they're coming back rather late from their lunch. Suddenly, straight after the lunch, you couldn't take your eyes off it for a moment.

No, I mean, it was just pace. It's just pace and the way he delivers the ball. He has a funny knack, Mike, of being able to sort of like hit people, I'm afraid. I've said it, there you go. He has that knack of putting sort of fear into a batsman because they can't seem to get out of a way of his short-pitched ball. Yeah, I mean, it's not easy having a technique against that kind of pace and back. It's a steep bounce that he gets.

And also, he gives you no cues as a batsman of how quick it's really going to be. So he goes from around 88 miles an hour to 9. 24 miles an hour and people are 6 miles an hour. It's not a lot. Well, it is. Let me tell you, from 88 to 994, that is a huge jump. And he just ambles in and he's got that beautiful kind of rhythmical action and just releases the ball. It's almost like a flick of the wrist, Phil, isn't it? Like it just flicks the wrist and down it comes. And, you know, it's that, you know, the full ball is kind of exactly the same kind of action and release as the short ball. It's so surprising when he suddenly kind of just drops the wrist a little bit, probably early and down goes that bouncer. Techniques will be questioned over the next three test matches. You're looking at a bowler here that will cause chaos around many dress rooms around the world, not just this Australian ones. And, you know, as a batsman, what you have to do is you have to work out, in particular after this week where he's bowled so many overs, starting again on Thursday,

Australia have to go, you know what, all right, you don't want to go into your shell and say, just see him off in every spell, but he can't bowl the same amount of overs. He'll snap in half. I mean, he's bowled 22 more overs this week than Chris Woke. There's no way that can happen again in a back-to-back test match. So if I was Australia, I'd just say, right, try and wear him down. Don't get into a battle with him. You know, I think he's the kind of bowler that you don't really need to get into a battle.

That kind of shot that Steve Smith played, just revved him up a little bit. And just maneuver the pace. You know, if you can get off strike, that's always a good way to play him down the other end. He looks to me like playing the pull shot and the hook shot. He's almost impossible to play because you're not too sure how steep it's going to bounce. You're not too sure how quick. the one shot I would potentially as an aggressor would try and bring to my game would be that you know that kind of ramp over the slips just using the bounce you know that is one kind of positive

shot that you could use but you know it is a terrific bowl that very very difficult to face you've just got to try and count the balls down you know pretty much your bowl of five maybe six over spell that's 36 balls you've got to see him off get down the other end and as he gets into his kind of second third and four spells tickling a back-to-back game you know I'm sure you'll get a few more loose deliveries. Yeah, he just has that ability to slit one, aren't you? From nowhere, I mean, he really did

just sort of go through the gears at Lords and, yeah, that steep bounce, high delivery, sort of high fingers as well, right at the top of the delivery, Mike, as you said, and that sort of wrist snap. You've got long fingers, aren't they? Long fingers. Yeah.

It sort of appears, it kind of like just kicks up at you from nowhere and, yeah, very, very awkward to play. Also, very, very impressed with his skill. I like the way he bowled a few little slower balls as well through a couple of knuckle balls in there as well. So he's bringing some of that sort of like one-day skill and 20-20 skill to test match cricket as well. You say, I mean, I agree with you, you know,

when you said, oh, you know, Kevin Peterson was probably the last debutante kind of created that kind of, I guess, the headlines. I don't remember in my time playing and watching England cricket, maybe beefy on a couple of occasions. and Freddie, when he got the bowling hand, but I don't remember a bowler having such an impact on a ground. I don't remember being at a ground on a Saturday afternoon, and the whole ground, I was out of the back,

and you could just hear everyone get back in that stadium. Get back in and watch this kid bowl. I've had it, you know, and beef, you used to whack it to all parts, Freddie Flint off, Kevin Peterson, you know, rushed back in out of the bars to make sure you see them get a 50 or 100, but I don't think I've ever seen it for an England bowler. Have you?

No, I don't think so. And it just comes down. I mean, obviously, ability and skill, as we've said, but it just comes down that everyone likes seeing quick bowling. Everyone likes to see... Well, no, not the batsman. No, I certainly didn't like quick bowling, that's for sure. But it's just that...

I just remind you tough as of you sitting with Kurtly Ambrose during the World Cup. Well, there you go. I mean, it's just that sort of like fear factor and that excitement that fast bowling just generates. I mean, it's just... It's wonderful to say. Nothing better so than to see... I mean, we had Mitchell Johnson.

with us on TMS. I can remember watching Mitchell Johnson coming steaming in. I mean, it's just, it's wonderful cricket. That's the last time, I said, Mitchell Johnson's spell in Brisbane. I think it was 2013, on one evening,

when England were under a bit of, under the caution, he ran in, and the crowd were going nuts, and that's the, probably the last time I'd watch Test match and I thought, oh, this is dangerous in a way, because it's just so quick,

and it was so well directed, and there was like a, you know, a quadrant of Aussie fans, bane for English blood, And you felt that on Saturday afternoon. It was, you know, intimidating. That's what quick bowling's there for, you know. You've got to intimidate the batsman, you know, it's allowed in the game.

The one thing that Joe Rout will have to be careful, as, is because he's that good. You know, I had it a little bit with Freddie Flintoff, is that they can bowl in all conditions, you know. So you can bowl when it's seam and he can bowl when it's swinging. When it's flight, you can go to the rough stuff. You know, he'll get reverse swing as well. And it'll be as a captain that you're in every situation,

and you go, right, who's the best baller for these conditions? Oh, it's Joffro. Oh, it's Joffra. And before you know, you've kind of gone to Joffra too much. And, you know, he's a human being and he can't keep bowling the amount of overs like he bowled this week. So, you know, somewhere they're going to have to realise, you know, Chris Wilkes is an outstanding bowler. Stuart Broad, Ben Stokes. There's so many bowlers that England have that, you know, Joel have to be very careful at Hedley this week that he doesn't overbowl jopold Jopher.

Can I ask you guys about the intimidation factor? Because, you know, you say, Michael, it's allowed in the game. It's a valid tactic. But when you see Steve Smith laid out flat, when you see Marnas Labashane getting one in the grill, first ball that he faced in Ashes cricket at Lords, does it sit okay with you? Some people don't like it.

I get those that don't like it. I'm afraid it's the game. You know, it's test match high-level sport. You know, what you kind of get brought up in terms of a batsman, you know that if you play test cricket, you're going to get it. You know, you're going to have to wear a few. You're going to have to duck and weave. going to have to have a technique that survives against quick bowling.

And you know at times you're going to get hurt. It's batting at the highest level. It's batting against a hard ball, against quality. Look, Steve Smithinson, it was awful. And the whole ground just went still. Because what happened to Philip Hughes a few years ago, that was not nice. But I'm afraid it's just the game. It's the game that, you know, and Steve Smith will be the first to be saying,

today, you know, he'll be ready to go again, if possible on Thursday. I don't know if he's going to have enough time to get over the concussion, but, you know, he'll just understand it's the game. Minas Slabish, I've never seen a batsman bounce up as quick from a bounce. So he got hit on the grill, and he hit the floor, and he bounced back up. He was like on a trampoline, bounced straight back to life. Listen, it was remarkable, but it's just the game, isn't it, Phil? Yeah, no, it is, as you say, I'm so glad that, you know, Steve Smith is okay.

No one likes to see that. But, I mean, you're talking about the intimidation. that was Steve Smith, probably the best batsman in the world at the moment, along with Virac Koli. And you're talking about intimidation. Well, it's one mistake, and that's one mistake from Steve Smith. So you were talking about, you know, me and everything coming in down the order. Can you imagine what we feel like? I mean, we're not a million times of the batsman that Steve Smith is,

and if he's getting sort of like, you know, one lapse of concentration, one misjudgment, and something like that can happen it's the fellas coming in who are absolutely petrified because they're just thinking well hold on minute we can't handle this if Steve Smith can't we can't Yeah and I reckon that's why it's just changed

the whole momentum of the series Because no question If I was in an England dress room And you know Kevin Peterson for instance Who was the best batsman at the time Got peppered like that and hurt It would send shivers down the rest of the batting unit Because you go well if he's getting hit

What are we going to do? You know and I don't think Pat Coim's got enough credit actually. You know, because Steve went out there as a number eight. And because Steve got hit, you know, all the story was Archer versus Smith. I thought the story in a way was how this number eight of Australia came out and faced that spell. You know, he faced as many balls.

He was ducking and weaving. He was defending. He got forward to the full balls. I thought he played it with great skill and great courage. Yeah, if anything, he just, he chopped him away a couple of times down the third man for forward, didn't he? But as you said, he was ducking and diving. He played very well.

He stood firm. I'll tell you what, Phil, I wouldn't want to face Joffa in the nets. Oh, I'd be horrible. Oh, those hard pitches in the nets, all being closed, all claustophobic. Oh, it'd be horrible. That should be banned. That is intimidating. And that's beyond anyone's pay grade facing Joffre Archer in the nets.

There's no need. There's no need. That's just silly. Not for the English batsman. If you think you're being tough as an English playing on, I'll face Joffre in the nets. You're just being completely stupid. Face the others. We don't know, obviously, whether Steve Smith,

will play at Headingly and we'll talk a bit more about Steve Smith in a minute as well but will Joffra Archer when they face each other again in this series whenever it is

will Jopra Archer will have got inside his head yeah yeah just you know it's just the next initial two or three overburst that Jofra

is there for Steve Smith and that's going to be the challenge I mean Steve Smith's such a great player that I'm sure if he ducks and we'll use two or three early ones it'll be fine he'll just get over it but he has to have some kind of trepidation

the next time he goes out there to face Joffre Archer. Tactically, if I was England now, and Steve Smith's playing on Thursday, you know he's going to be back at number four. Wokes and Broad take the new ball, try and just lost the first two. And as soon as Steve Smith walks out of bat,

the ball's thrown to Joffar Archer, and you say, Joffrey, you've got six overs. Six overs to go again, and you go completely aggressive on him. You go, if you can get as close to bodyline as you can, and people will be probably shouting, and you can't do that. That is exactly what I would do to Steve Smith.

I'd go aggressive, I'd be bowling short, sharp, short leg, I'd have that field that they finish with, and you try and challenge him. And that's the nature of high-level sport. He probably will be good enough to get over it because he's that good, but that's what I'd be doing if I was England. Broaden works with the new cherry. Try and get rid of two, and as soon as he walks out there, Joffra, there you go.

If you were the Australian batting coach, what would you do for the rest of this week? I mean, you'd say, what's Monday? Test match starts on Thursday. Nobody's got any time to prepare for it, really, have they? but if you're, is it Graham Hick? Is he still as your batting coach? Yes, she is Graham. Yeah, what do you do with your players this week?

I don't think, I think that they probably, listen, we all saw the spell, we all realised he's bowling fast, it's plain to see. I don't think that they'll be sort of getting too worried about it, though. Sort of, in the back of their mind they will be, but I don't think they'll be all walking around going, oh, crikey, what we're going to do, where's the chess pads, where's the arm guards and everything,

then you're sort of, you're sort of, you know, building him up to this sort of level. I think you've just got to sit this and you know what's going to come. You sit down, you have a quiet word with the boys. How are you going to play it? You're going to look to Bob and weave. You're going to look to take it on. Go out there with a plan and just try and put it into sort of practice, don't you, Mike? Yeah, well, you also, if you're looking at, he bowled over 40 overs, Geoff.

We've got five wickets. So they've actually made him work quite hard to get those five wickets in terms of overs bowled. And they'll know back-to-back games. He can't be bowling 40-odovers at head. headingly. It'll be just as exactly the same like you talk to any ball to try and wear them down, try and rotate the strike, left and right in combinations, give him different angles to try and produce.

And if you get a ball that you think you can fully commit to it and try and strike it to the boundary, if you can get on top of him, you know, good look, by the way, because he doesn't look the kind of bowler that's going to be, you know, easy to get on top of. But if you can, you know, you remember, he's into his second test match. He's a young kid in test match cricket that, you know, he's not going to have. have glory days all the time. He's going to struggle at some stage.

And, you know, Australia have got to have the mindset that if they can get through his first spell and make him work in that second and third, then get on top of him, you know, really put the pressure on him. Everyone is expecting Joffre now to bowl like he did on that Saturday afternoon. And anything below that,

people are always tired or he's lost his rhythm or, you know, was that a one-off? So the pressure now is on Joffera, actually because everyone watching and all of us commentating and we'll expect that kind of bowling on a regular basis. Let me just ask you toughers.

What do we even do if we get to Old Trafford and Jimmy Anderson is fit to play? Who do you drop? Oh, that's a question. I don't know. Mike, what are you, Regan? He won't be fit for Old Trafford, will he?

No, I'm not quite sure. But if Anderson is fit and rare and a go, he got to play for me. I mean, you know, when... Who are you dropping then? I don't know, mate. Who you're dropping? I suppose it's going to have to be

well, Brody's on form, isn't he? I mean, Brody's been bowling pretty well, hasn't he? Been all over Dave Warner. You drop him works? I don't know. Well, who are you dropping, Mike? Sanchez is 22 in England. Well, go on, and who are you dropping, Mike?

I don't know if I can. I mean, I don't think he's going to be fit, and I think England are going to get ourselves in a position. If you go into, if you win it headingly and play nicely, I mean, you just go again with the same team, wouldn't you? You know, you've got your. back in the series with a performance that was

a lot better at Lords and you get a head and win it's one all I don't think you'd be tinkering with a team you're certainly not going to risk someone coming into the side that's not to play the great deal of cricket so I won't be he's got a stand named after him Mike at Old Trafford if they lose it and of course

you can't you take the shit I don't think you need to gamble so much I mean Chris Wokes might need a breather by then I guess but you know you can't be playing someone who's got a niggle he's got I've played a couple of weeks of cricket. If he's played two weeks of cricket by then, of course,

Jimmy Anderson plays. But I'm not too sure he's going to get that amount of cricket before Old Trafford. So I would think it would be more like the Oval that Jimmy Anderson will become available for selection. That would be my guess. You've got to play Jimmy Anderson bowling from the Jimmy Anderson end, Mike. Well, it's his end, isn't it? So he can do what he wants. I'm trying.

I'll drop, Archie. Get rid of him. He's on a young kid. Give him a miss. Okay, you delayed the decision. You delayed the decision. to the Oval. Well done. It's a good point though, Ellie. It's a good point. I mean, as you say, it just goes to show all of a sudden we were scrabbling around when Jimmy Anderson sort of went

and we go, oh, where are we going to get the wickets from? You know, he's injured and the swing's going to upset the Australian batsman. And I was scratching my head coming away from Edgebust and thinking, I don't really know how we're going to sort of like, you know, turn this around. I don't really see how we're going to win. But then all of a sudden, Joffar Archer's just just sort of come into the equation. It's just like, hold on. I'm We can really get at them. Now, it's been an amazing first test for it. Yeah, we've just got to be careful, though, Phil,

because Australia hold the ashes, the one in the love, the three to play. They only need one good week. Australia only need to have one out of three good weeks. You know, they win that one week. They've got two wins. England can't win the ashes. Australia will retain and they'll take the yearn home.

And, you know, with this test match time, to say that England have, we know that they're basically a team that play one week on, one week off. You know, they very rarely do it over the course of three or four weeks. so that's my concern with the test match team and I'm sure that's what Australia

is saying to their ranks that they've had a decent week in England battle we had them under a bit of pressure on that last morning and we could have won the game and then obviously this one ball has caused a bit of chaos I don't think Australia would be too much in the panic room just yet

knowing that the one that'll look three to play and headingly if you look at headily it's been a ground where we always go they thought oh you're going to win there it'll suit well they lost to the West Indies headily they lost against strong Sri Lanka headingly.

We've gone up to Leeds and expecting England to blow teams away against, you know, not as good at opposition and then all of a sudden they've kind of had a batting collapse or they've not quite pitched it up quite as much as they should. So this week it leads, it might be a different week in terms of the way that Joffin needs to bowl as well. It might be a week where he does have to pitch it up a bit more and use the kind of movement and the conditions. So, you know, I'm excited because England are a lot better than what we were after

Edgaston. suddenly got a bowler that I believe he's going to cause absolute chaos everywhere. But I'm always sitting back going, wait a minute, but this test team's a little bit inconsistent. So let's see what they give us at Henley over the course of a few days. Let's just talk about what it was like sort of late yesterday evening, floodlights on, dark clouds overhead. You've got the spinners on from both end. And what about Jack Leach Tuffers? What did you make of his spell?

You know, debauled well yesterday, didn't he? yeah he bowled all right yeah I think he'll be sort of like happy that he's got into the game and you know got a few wickets under his under his belt he managed to tie an end up for Joe Root which was which was good

and that's what he'll be sort of like pleased about as well so they could rotate the seamers at the other end and he just sort of slotted into his work so to speak there was some nice rough there for him for the left handers as well so he's going to be a threat I think they've got three or four left handers in the top sort of five or six, Australia, so

he's going to be a threat there as well. So I think he'll be coming away from Lords thinking, yeah, no, I did all right there, I did all right, I did my job, I held up, and ended I got a few wickets out, so yeah, no, I thought you both well. I like him, I honestly think England, I've got to give him a run of games in the team.

Yeah, I think so. They're crying out for this, you know, this spinner that, you know, it could possibly be a Graham Swan or a shame. England don't have that at this stage. You know, what they have is a left-arm spinner from white, who's going to be dependable.

He's not going to... I don't think he's going to get six for 25. I don't think he's that kind of spinner, but I think he's going to be dependable, consistent. He looks to me like he's got a repetitive action that on day one, if the pitch is pretty good, he should be able to hold an end for the captain so he can rotate the seamers from the other end.

We know Moen Alley doesn't like being the front-line spinner. So if Moen Alley can get his game back and his confidence back, you know, when you need a second spinner, and Moen Alley comes in for one of the all-rounders as a second spinner. And I just think England have got to stick with Jack Leach. You know, he got three for nicely yesterday. He got the ball into the rough.

He said afterwards, he said, I didn't bowl quite as well as I could have done. But I like that. I thought he bowed pretty well. I thought he kind of hit that zone on a regular basis. I'd be giving him a good running the side because, you know, this team now, they've got this difference in Archer, and you've got broad, and you've got wokes who are outstanding, you've got Ben Stokes. You know, you only need someone just to hold an end.

Lastery Jars did it for England for many years. and the Seamers did the damage at the other end. And I could see Jack Leach doing a similar thing for England over the course of the next two or three years. Yeah, I'd like to see when he bowls, as you say, on that first innings, when perhaps the Seamus, but it's nice when you've got a good bowling attack and you're the spin bowler his hand it to have.

But yeah, just like to see how he goes, as you say, on that first day when, let's say, someone gets in and someone looks to get after him, what his variations are and his sort of difference in flights so now he pulls the batsman around the crease but I think he'll be very happy with what he did at Lord I tell you what back for Jack Leach

as a batsman if archers on you're having a dart of Jack and it might bring him a few wickets yeah definitely without batsman work out who's going to be coming on and all his son and Joe all Joe needs to go to Jof get loose

starts waving his arm around and you might fancy that a basman will take a few chances can I can I throw a number at you guys Oh yes It is It's 2835 What's that?

That is 28385 That's what I used to live there Used to live on that Yeah I thought it sounded like It's not my pin number

It's not my pin number 2835 Is David Warner's scores In this Ashes series Oh dear Oh Davey Things not gone so well On I reckon

Probably dropped two catches at eight catches at about three catch and five guys he's not caught very well as he did no he's not no well broadie's got it on him isn't he at the moment it seems to... I've got a trick for them if Australia fancy a listen I've got something that they should do

if Smith isn't fit for headingly I would open with Marcus Harris Cowager I put Labashane to number three and I'd move David Warner to number four David Warner opening the batting in English conditions in the first things average is 13 or 14

He's never got 100 here in England in Ashes Cricket. I think he would... And if you've not got your senior best batsman at 4, I would put my other one to number 4 and give him a chance against an older ball. Because Stuart Broad's had him on toast. He's got him on toast. He comes around the wicket and you can see.

He's not too sure how to play it. He's not the firecracker that he once was. He's playing a little bit more technical. That is what I would go for if I was like, they won't do it. He'll go up and open because he's an opening batsman. He'll say, that's what I do. But in English conditions, if I was the Oz's,

I would seriously look at David Warner against that new ball. I think England really fancy it when he walks out there. I agree that Stuart Balls had him on toast, you know, and when you get that on someone in the opposition, you know, you're talking about, well, Steve Smith, you know, be sort of, you know, concerned about Joffar Archer when he comes up against him. Well, David Warner knows that every time he walks out of bat, Stuart Ball is going to have a new ball in his hand, and he's got the wood on him. And the new ball always just nibbles enough. Whether it's a good day for batting or not, it's always going to do something.

And that's what I'd be doing if I was Australia. England, I'd make a change as well in the order. I'd go Rory Burns, Joe Denley at the top. I'd go Jason Roy to three and put Joe root back to four. I'd just give Jason Roy at one day. He got 70 odd against Ireland at number three. I know it's on the island, but I'd just give him one spot breather.

Joe Denley played okay at four, but again, getting 30s and 20s, He's not going to give him a test career. Put him at the top of the audit. His techniques look a lot stronger and better than Jason's. Just see how that works. Again, they won't do it because they'll say, oh, we played well at laws. But I'm just trying, I want Joe Root back at number four.

I've not enjoyed him at three. You know, in the winter he didn't back there. They did OK in Sri Lanka. I played not so great in the Caribbean. Last year against India, four. They won four-one, was it? I'm not all over this. Oh, Joe Root's the best bouncing.

He's got a back number three. I don't buy that. I think he should bat at number four. Is it a sign of weakness when you start chopping and changing your batting order around though, Mike? Only in your own, Matt. Only, you know, he's gone to number three

and he's done nothing. So you just go back to the spot where, you know, he's had the most success. Jason Roy's been at the top of the order. You can clearly see with Jason that he's not quite sure how to play the new ball. Does he play technically or does he try and whack it?

I mean, I think he's a bit confused of how to play. If he does open, Jason, I hope he comes out and has a one-day mindset because I can't see him surviving that long. I don't see him lasting that long anyway because of his technique, but he might as well get some runs while he's out there and have a bit of a go. And you never know he might get into his stride, and all of a sudden he finds a bit of rhythm. But I just think from that, I always look at the alone.

How can you maximise and get the most out of every player? That is what I would do, Denley to open. Roy to three, get Joe Root back to four. And then that engine room that found form, Ben Stokes 100, he found form, Butler was a lot better in the second inch, Bearstow found form, Wokes is in good, Nick. And Joe Rupert of Fussey, you got Root Stokes, Butler, Bearstow, Wokes, four to number eight. That looks pretty solid to me. Well, look, let's talk about Steve Smith. Steve Smith, the first ever player to be subbed out of a test match due to concussion over the last couple of days.

He was hit on the head, as we know by Joffra Archer on Saturday. He then left the field after assessment on the pitch from the team, Doctor. But then amazingly, he came back on again at the fall of the next wicket. But the next day, he failed his concussion tests and he was ruled out for the rest of the match. Here's what he said later that day to Cricket Australia. Started to feel a little bit of a headache coming on last night, probably as the adrenaline, I guess, probably got out of my system. So I started to feel a bit of a headache come on last night

and was able to get a good sleep in, which is somewhat rare for me. but woke up feeling a little bit groggy and with a headache again. So, yeah, had some tests done and, yeah, upon some, I guess, further assessments deemed to be a mild concussion, unfortunately, and have been ruled out for the rest of this test match. So your results today with the tests have actually deteriorated. from your testing yesterday and your baseline assessments as well. Is that correct? Yeah, they declined a little bit, unfortunately. Yeah, we did a test this morning here at the ground and did one last night and results changed slightly. And unfortunately, that and that and

how I'm feeling have contributed to me being ruled out for the rest of the rest of the to the test match. So how did you feel yesterday when you came off the ground? And what were the results of your tests then? Yesterday when I came off the ground, the results were normal. I passed all the tests and felt fine, felt normal. So, you know, it was allowed to go back out and bat upon discussions with the team doctor and the coach as well they were they were both happy and and i was comfortable as well so

we all were all happy and was able to go out and continue batting so you've been ruled out by the doctor from this match dr richard saw how does that make you feel with the tests that i've done and and sort of how i've woken up today you know i think it's the right decision um i'd obviously love to be out there trying to keep performing and try and help Australia win another test match but I think the right decision's being made and I'll obviously be monitored very closely over the next few days with a pretty quick turnaround in between test matches and I'm hopeful that I can make a recovery and be okay for that. So what about the third test, Steve?

It's not long away now, just Thursday it starts, up at Headingley. Are you going to be fit for that? Look, it's obviously a quick turnaround between test matches. You know, I'm going to be assessed over the next five or six days each day, probably a couple of times a day to see how I'm feeling and see how I'm progressing. And, yeah, I'm hopeful that I will be available for that test match. You know, it's certainly up to the medical staff and, you know, we'll have conversations, but it's certainly a, you know, area of concern, concussion and, you know, I want to be 100% fit.

Well, let's speak to Luke Griggs, who's the Deputy Chief Executive of the Brain Injury Association Headway. Luke, what did you think, listening to that interview? It's really worrying, isn't it? I think that the biggest problem I've got is we see this time and time. again in other sports. And I think it's only now that cricket seems we're waking up to say, well, actually, we've got a bit of a problem here. We saw a little bit of it in the World Cup

where there was a similar incident where the player made the decision to go back on. But I think the key issue that we're seeing here is the difficulty in assessing somebody for a potential concussion. I mean, that's difficult in itself, but particularly in such a short space of time.

And we know that the the signs of concussion can be delayed in their presentation. And we've seen that time and time again in other sports. And we've always said that's exactly why you need to take any different doubt, sit-it-out approach. Because you got Steve there saying that it was until the morning, where actually he started to actually have those symptoms coming through and feeling that. And at all that time when he went back out there, there would be plenty of brain activity and they were doing a concussion going on.

And that's exactly why he needed to rest in that time, not put himself in further danger. So it's exactly why we've got to be ultra-cautious when it comes to any form of concussion. How do you actually treat concussion? Well, treat is probably the wrong word. It's actually the best way to do is rest. Because with the vast majority of concussions, they won't have any lasting impact. What you need is all this activity in the brain that's going on. It's the temporary disturbance of the brain's function.

And the best way to, in effect, treat it is with complete rest. So that's rest from, you know, trying to reduce any kind of intellectual stimulation. So, you know, no reading on your tablets or, you know, screen time. No activity that could actually risk moving the brain and shuffling it around, which is why we're talking about the need for graduated return-to-play protocols, so you gradually build up the amount of work that you're doing, amount of activity you're doing. And the key thing is to avoid any risk of actually suffering a secondary blow to the head,

which can exacerbate the initial injury. So effectively, its complete rest is the best way to let your brain recover. Luke, you probably heard Steve Smith there saying that Australia are very, very aware of head injury, particularly after what happened, tragically to Philip Hughes. But do you think that they have learned as well as they could have done? I mean, that was obviously an exceptional incident. Well, you say it was an exceptional incident, but I'm sure I wasn't the only one watching that live thinking, you know, dear God, that's, could we be here again?

because it was a very, it seemed a very seemingly similar situation to that suffered by Philip Hughes when he got struck on the neck. And it wasn't actually, you know, a blow to the head. And I think people, you know, maybe don't recognize the fact that if it was, you know, not specifically to the head, it won't cause a concussion. You know, it can do because it's where the brain moves inside of the skull. I don't know. I was surprised to see him go back out to bat.

And you've still got the reaction of, you know, they're still in cricket, this issue of praising him for being brave and doing something for the team. And it's an issue that's been faced by all sports and we're slowly trying to get rid of that kind of perception that you're being very brave by going back out there. Well, actually, you're not, you're putting your short and long-term health at risk. I would just say it's not the fault of the medics who I'm sure are absolutely first-rate and gave him a thorough concussion test.

But it is very, very difficult to actually accurately assess somebody in such a short space of time, as I said. So there's got to be that safety first thing. The other thing I've mentioned about the Philip Hughes situation is I was surprised as well to learn that when following that tragedy, these new rules were brought in about the additional head protection or rather neck protection for these helmets. And they're not mandatory.

And I know that Steve Smith himself has talked about these and saying, well, actually it restricts his movement and makes him feel uncomfortable. But I'm sorry, I think the time has come that cricket absolutely needs to consider this again and look at it very, very closely about making those extra protections, you know, mandatory and get players get used to wearing those new safeguards or we might face another tragedy that could have been prevented. Yeah, and also just one other thing, if I can.

You know, you're talking about, you know, in being sent out and everything and concussion and the way they test them. I mean, I'm no doctor, but I mean, you know, crikey, that's got of been concussion, hasn't it? Even I could have seen that, a ball. hitting you at 95 mile an hour on the back of the head. I mean, surely that's just got to be straightforward to diagnose, isn't it?

Even if they, you know, the test, do you should. It's not an easy thing to diagnose at the moment, because we haven't got reliable sideline diagnostic tools. There's a lot of research going on to look at saliva testing or blood biomarkers that can actually help us to actually identify the activity that's going on in the brain and have a more accurate diagnosis because it is very, very difficult. But we've always said that it's got to be this if-and-doubt, sit-it-out approach.

The difficulties of professional sport, and I believe I saw just in Langer Press conference where he said that Steve Smith said, well, if I don't get back out there, how am I going to get on the honours board? And that is really, really concerning, because players have got to take your responsibility for this, and they've got to understand the risk they're putting themselves under.

Luke, I totally get you with that, but I've been in that situation where I've been in, and you do want to get back out there. You know, it's a case of, You're in an Ashes series. You're playing against England or Australia. You're at Lord. Your team under a little bit of pressure.

You think, I've got to get back out there. So it's such a difficult situation for the player. Such a difficult situation for the actual medical team as well. What advice would you give the game from this moment on? I completely, completely understand that. I mean, you know, and it's the same for all sports that we have that problem. This is why we've called in other sports in rugby and football, in particular for the players have absolutely no say in whether they have it to go back out

there. Now, I'm not saying that in this situation, it wasn't the doctor who made that decision. But, you know, if you are under pressure from a player, it says, I feel fine, I feel fine, you know, I want to get back out there. It got to be taken out of their hands. And one of the ways around that may be to introduce independent doctors who are free from that kind of pressure, both commercial pressure, team pressure, or anything like that, to actually help them to protect then more to say actually it's in the hands of an independent doctor who makes that call with a player having absolutely no say in it because we've got to put their health first. Yeah, does every time he get hit on the head then, even with the helmet, like that Labushain

got hit in the grill, didn't he? You know, he just sort of bounced up. Is there a chance of then him having concussion? Well, there's always a chance, but I think it is worth saying that not every blow to the head, not every head injury will result in concussion, which makes it, you know, if it was that simple, then first of all, you'd have, you know, dozens of people going off every game in football or rugby, and it isn't that practical, which is why we are in a situation while we are,

that we need to push forward with the research and push forward with these reliable sideline diagnostic tools, which aren't that far away from my understanding. And that will really help us to get a better grip of this, better control on this. But, you know, in the meantime, it's got to be this safety first approach. And the main

message has got to be the people, millions of people were watching the ashes. And they see somebody coming out there, being praised for being brave, like continuing. When they're going out and playing their Sunday league games and whatever sports, they can't be taking that attitude forward because they don't have a doctor on standby. They don't have the ambulance there in case something goes horribly wrong. So we've got to set the good example for us to follow that you cannot take a chance. And if you're feeling in any way unwell or dizzy or nauseous or anything like that,

you simply cannot take the chance and go back out there, particularly if we're thinking about concussion can delay your reaction times, it can leave you with blurred vision. And suddenly you've got Choffer Archer bowling bounces at 94 miles an hour when you need every split second of reaction time. I mean, that can't be right. And Lou, what is the time frame? No, I mean, we heard Steve Smith's interview saying, no, he may have a net and try and play headily on Thursday.

What really is the protocol in terms of, I guess, the medical way of making sure absolutely that Steve Smith will be fine to play again? Well, different sports have different protocols on this. And to be honest, I'm not sure what cricket's protocol is. I know in the likes of football and rugby, in the professional element, it's about six or seven days, which I don't think is long enough, personally. But it depends on what cricket's own protocols say about that. But I think the realities he will be checked very closely

and will be monitored and a graduated return-to-play protocol, so he won't be going into the nets and immediately facing some fast bowling. They'll be checking his vision, his reaction time, you know, asking how he feels, whether he feels nauseous, whether he has a headache and what have you. They'll be checking him very, very close and gradually building up his activity during the week before making a call on whether or not they feel that he's 100%. And I'm quite sure that if he's less than 100%, they won't take a chance. At least I'd hope that. Luke, thank you so much. Just to fill in the details of that, apparently there isn't a mandatory.

sitting out period laid down by cricket Australia, but as you said, we will see those assessments, I'm sure, as the week goes on, and we will find out whether Steve Smith can actually play at Headingley. But fascinating discussion. I mean, that was Luke Griggs, Deputy Chief Executive of the Brain Injury Association Headway. Just a very, very quick final thought on this before we move on and look ahead to Headingley, Michael. These stem guards, these bits of plastic at the base of the neck, so underneath the rim of the helmet, should they be mandatory? You know, helmet technology has moved on, you know, helmets are mandatory now in certain age groups in cricket. Should the stem guards be mandatory as well, do you think?

Yeah, I think it's going to that stage. But again, as a player, you know, I was kind of around the time where the helmets were changing all the time. And, you know, the helmet on your head when you're batting is almost the key part of your armour, not just in protection because of your balance. And if you feel any way uncomfortable with any part of it, You used to be, remember those big grills, Phil? And there was prospect grills. Yes.

You know, we've had all sorts of different. If it doesn't feel right on your head, it really does annoy you as a batsman. So as long as they've got the right, you know, comfort, you know, you've got to have comfort, you've got to have protection. But those stuff, I was surprised when I saw the replay, I saw that Steve didn't have those stems on the back. That did surprise me. So, yeah, I think they should be managed. But they've got to make sure that, you know, they make a few different styles. So, you know, you can't just have two because two might not be.

be enough for everyone to kind of put on the head and go, oh, yeah, I feel comfortable batting in that. So as long as they make a few, I really liked his idea of having an independent doctor. I think that's a great idea, because again, we've been on tours for you. You get so close to your team doctor, you know, and the team doctor would say, oh, go on you. And you'd look at the dock in the, mate, I'm getting out there. End of. This team, I'm getting out there. I've got to get out there on the pitch. And, you know, you've got an independent doctor on the ground, operate in every international match. I think that's possibly the way to go. Right. Okay. Let's look ahead to Headingley. Starts on Thursday. So goodness, there's no turnaround

time for anybody, is there really? But it's so interesting now, isn't it? As we said, the psychological impact has swung a little bit towards England. What are your thoughts, Michael, Philip? What's going to happen on Thursday? Well, Hedley's always a fun week. I think the weather's going to be pretty good, which will surprise you from down south. It'll be a a piece that I'll offer a little bit. It always does. I don't think it'll have a great deal of pace. It'll just be normal. Probably similar pace to what we've seen at Edgebaston and Lords. It will spin, you know, throughout the week we'll get a bit of spin because, you know, the pitches are very, very dry. You'd have to say Steve Smith's not playing for Australia, England have to win. I mean, if they

can't be an Australian side, you know, that hasn't got Steve Smith in, who's got 37% of all Australia's runs in the series, you've got to doubt whether they've got the right quality to go on and really compete for the remaining two games. So they'll have to win at Leeds. They'll know that, and I'm pretty sure if they play to the stand. I was really impressed with the way that they batted yesterday morning. I thought Stokes and Butler read the situation nicely and then exploded into life to get to that target. Joe Root captain, well, he got the declaration right. if Smith's not playing I can't see anything but an England win

but we've said that going to Henley before who'd have thought that Sri Lanka would beat us at Henley who'd have thought the West Indies would have beaten England at Henley so I'm always a little bit nervous going to lead with the England side but England should have enough quality and they've got enough players back in form

to put this Australian team without Steve Smith under a huge amount of pressure yeah no I'll make you right Mike I mean yeah you don't quite know what's going to happen at Henley but I think the teams have just come a little bit closer together I think England were a bit stunned after Edgeburston and they've regrouped and they've hit back hard at Lords

they've found a new bowler in Joffa Archer I think we're in for some cracking test matches the test matches each day of the test match has been wonderful cricket, isn't it Mike? I mean these games are 120 for 8 at Edgeburton and all that kind of stuff and then yesterday Joffer Archer spells who knows what's going to happen, but it's going to be thrilling stuff.

I do think if Australia bat first, you know, I do think batting first, even on day one at Lords, you know, after the day of rain, you know, both teams were going to bowl, Australia won the toss. But I think it was a good toss to lose. If you look at that pitch, it was a good toss to lose. It probably played it its best on day one. And I think it will be very similar heading. You ever bats first will get a little advantage.

I'll have to bat well because the first hour always does a little bit ahead in this. Pakistan found out last year they lost early with. it's lost a test match but um i will think back in first it would be quite a nice advantage at heading in this week a bit of mitchell stark might be coming back as well or patinson i reckon yeah who knows right look before we go philip remind us what you promised us on last week's show about steve smith at lords oh yeah if he if he gets out for nought um i will if he gets nought if he gets nought you said phil no if he gets out for nought i will You said if he gets naught

It wasn't how you just said You need to listen back You can't You said if he gets out for you said If he gets naught I want a referral I want a referral Okay

Toughest All right Here's your referral Coming up right now There is no man in the world Who is more respected On the subject of stats Than the TMS scorer

Andrew Sampson Have a listen Yeah Well as you know These are very unusual circumstances With the first time There's been a concussion sub So I've had to check with the ICC

Obviously Steve Smith didn't bat in the second innings But according to the ICC He didn't score any runs in the second inning That's a duck at lords for Steve Smith It's he didn't bat He didn't bat I'm not running down the street naked Because he didn't bat

No you promise that was You said that if he scored Nort He's got north You can't go against Andrew Sampson and the ICC Right I'm going to look at to this further before I get me kit off you tell you what you need to do get in the gym you know get some

listen all right Mike I've been doing a little bit I'm buff I'm buff don't worry get to that health spa just get cleaned of a bit and you'll be a way to go did not bat that says by Steve Smith so so for St John's Wood High Street

I'm quite looking forward to it actually let's read the Harlefin Road What time are you going to do it out of the field? Do you only get morning or late night? Well, I think I might do middle of the night. All right, guys. Thank you so much. Great to talk to you as always. We'll be seeing you on Thursday.

And as far as tough as Involn is concerned, we'll be back again next Monday. A TMS podcast will preview the third test on Wednesday. And then it's ball by ball commentary on five live sports extra from 1025 on Thursday. Tough as Unborn's Cricket Show On 5 Live