Test Match Special - Tuffers and Vaughan: Robin Smith opens up

Episode Date: June 17, 2019

Tuffers, Michael and Chappers are joined by former England batsman Robin Smith, who speaks very frankly an openly about his mental struggles when playing and after retiring, including depression, alcoholism and contemplating suicide.If you are feeling emotionally distressed and would like details of organisations which offer advice and support, go online to bbc.co.uk/actionline.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge. Perfect for the ultimate defender. The high-performance Defender Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D dynamics air suspension. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Phil.

Hello. We're here. Oh, good. How are you, Philip? Hello, mate. Are you all settled in Guilford? Yeah. I'm just sat here. Yes, mate.

Kat, the judge is here. Judgey, how are you, mate? I'm very well, thanks, Kevin. How are you bad? Good, mate. Good, all good. Good, good. Probably a little bit more nervous now than I was facing you, mate.

No, well, don't be nervous. You've got to stop being nervous, Judge. You're all nervous. He's just said than dad, man. You do this for a living now, mate. I know. I'm an embroider and per. A humble embroidering perk.

A what? An embroiderer? Embroider, that's what I do. What do you do now? What's an embroider? Knitting? Right, let's not go. Let's hold fire. Because I imagine tough as you'll come out with some gems over the next hour.

Does Wally jumpers? Judgey, stop knitting. Are we ready? Yes, I'm ready. Cool. You're always ready. aren't you? You like a coiled spring. Well, I, if we could crack on

because I've got to go out of lunch. Well, where are you going for lunch? No, I'm only going down to pub. How do you live in that pub? Well, it dawn's back, so... Oh, right. So it's her fault? It is, it is indeed. Do you have a...

What do you normally have for your lunch in the pub? Well, I quite like Scampi. Do you... You sound surprised at that yourself. No, it's an old favourite. It's scampi chips and peas. Do you go mushy peas or just go garden? Well, I don't know whether they have a choice.

I'm sure if you ask, you can crush your peas. They'll probably say, if you want mushy peas, sit on them yourself. Loads of vinegar, Phil. Lodd of vinegar on that scampi. Yes, well, it's Langastein, isn't it, in a scampi? Well, it's very posh. Well, you never know what's in it, to be honest. Let's be honest.

You've put me right off now, might. Just be careful. Just have a bowl of peas. Yeah. Mushem. Yeah. Let's go. This is Five-Life Sport

Tophers and Vaughn's Cricket Show Now obviously it was the biggest game in world cricket yesterday You were at Old Trafford, how was India, Pakistan? One-sided, India far too strong, Pakistan is struggling apart from that performance against England They look like they're going to be crashed out of the world could be in the next week or so As far as England are concerned, Philip, how impressed were you

with their comprehensive win over the West Indies? Yeah, a good all-round performance by England and a hallmark of what this Owen Morgan team is all about. We're joined as well today on the pod by a man who played in a World Cup final for England. He was your hero growing up. Michael, listen to this. Benjamin comes in Burster-Smith.

Shorten Smith hooks him most boldly for four. Well, that was a confident start if ever. It's a six. A remarkable stroke by Robin Smith. It's one of those surreal shows for me because I used to pretend to be you in the back garden as well. And I did. Phil's a lot older, so obviously,

but for me and Michael, this is quite special, Robin. Thank you for being with us. It's an absolute pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Toughers and Vaughn here every Monday throughout the World Cup and the Ashes. Make sure you don't miss an episode. Just subscribe to the TMS podcast via BBC Sounds

or your usual podcast app. Tough as and Vaughn's cricket show. On Five Live. Yes? Can I just say, Judge he was my hero and I managed to get to play with him so it was even better

Phil did you Sorry, Tuffers played cricket Phil did you and chaffers yourself did you smash plant pots in the garden playing the Square Cup I actually smashed Mrs Malander's greenhouse next door

But not our next door neighbour A friend of mine And we used to, during the summers We just used to have cricket matches over and over again He had like a two stage back garden so in the second part of his back garden that's where we used to go and play cricket

and we picked we pooled 11 players and then one of us were bowl and we would be the 11 batsmen in our line up and you'd alternate your bowlers and so all those cricketers of that, your brother would have been in the teams as well at that time so yes

I spent hours in the garden playing the square cup because of you oh right well I actually spent hours in the garden trying to play like Ellen Lamb It was actually so lovely that eventually I managed to be playing with Ellen for England which is fantastic

Which we'll come on to it in a mid But just on that then When you then get to play with someone You've been trying to be And who was a hero Is that intimidating? It certainly wasn't for me Lammy didn't make me feel intimidated at all

I mean he was such a huge influence in my life He always gave me all the encouragement that I needed I never always felt as confident as I should have been but when you hang you around Lamb and both of them and you're just feeding off all that confidence then it certainly helps you.

And then were you aware when you were playing that you'd have been doing the same thing for people like me and Michael and Phil? Well not really because having read what Warren he said on the back of my book saying you know he used to enjoy my the presence that I had walking out to bat and looking confident and looking at, I certainly didn't feel that way at all.

I was always really struggled to, you know, live up to, you know, what people had thought would be of being this confident player, which I certainly wasn't. And I'll come on to that. I'll come on to that in a little while. So now when people say to you, we used to pretend to be you in the back garden. Very humbling. Yeah. Embarrassing and humbling.

But very nice too. So that's a really nice. People must do it. People must do it to you. Not often. Right, okay. Phil, do people do it to you? Yes, well, a few people have named their cats and dogs after me. There's a little French bulldog that lives down the road called Tuffers.

So I suppose that's quite nice, isn't it? That's it. Yes, yes. Whether they've actually tried to be me in the back garden, but you do. Yeah, you do occasionally come up across, you know, kids sort of like, in the nets over the local cricket club and they sort of go, oh, you know what I mean? I remember sort of watching you

and I wanted to be a spin bowler. So, yeah, it's lovely. That's what cricket's about. I mean, that's why it's so important that, you know, kids are watching this World Cup and they're seeing the likes of Joe Rootbat, you know, and get in the garden and try and play, I mean, it's difficult to try and copy Joe Roet,

but, you know, Virac Koli, Roit Sharma, Bumra, you know, Joffar Archer, that's what it's about. You see your heroes, and then you do. You get your brothers and your sisters and you say, come on, let's get in the garden. And you're trying, copy them. It used to drive my mum mad.

The ball was flying square of the wicket on the offside. A lot of occasions. The plants were flying everywhere. I might have broken a window or two. The balls were flying into next door's gardens. They were getting annoyed because of it. But that's what it's all about. Just trying to emulate your heroes.

Yeah, but it's very strange because I remember 1990 when I was first picked to play for England. You know, I'd seen all these boys. You know, as you say, both of them, lambs. Robin and, you know, and Lamy and all these kind of guys. And also the opposition as well. And then I was only a youngster. And then for actually then to turn up,

they say you should never meet your heroes, don't they? Yeah, they do. Yeah. Yeah. And especially when they've got a ball in the round. From 22 yards away, it all becomes a little bit worried. You know what I mean. As he was your hero, you described the kind of batsman he was for you.

Oh, no, the kind of player that, for me when you walked out of bad, You know, I've read the book, so I know more about you now than obviously when I used to see you, but you just had that body language present. You and Alan Lamb just, you know, facing quick bowling. You just seem to have that belief from what I saw that you could score runs against that great West Indian attack. You know, the mindset of attack, you know, again, having read your book, I know that was different, but from the visual that I saw was of an England player walking out. taking the guard, both you and Alan Lam was right,

Gucci the same. You know, right, okay, these are quick, they're great. You know, they've got aggressive fields, but we're going to try and put you back on the back foot. And that's what I learned a great deal from the lights of yourself. And also, you won't probably remember, I was 12th man for England in the 90s.

And I used to, you know, Bumble Lloyd got me and Anthony McGrath. As young player, who were at 19, remember Anthony McGrath? Absolutely bonkers. And we were invited to Trent Bridge, Edgaston, to spend days with the England's side, 12th manning. and I have to say that you,

Lammy, Gucci, but particularly yourself, you were incredible with us. Oh, that's nice. You know, I'm just, honestly, you were unbelievable, just two young players, we were nervous as hell,

rock up with our bags, we were there for three or four days. You would encourage the net bowlers to bowl at us at the end of the day's play, so make sure that those two young lads have a bat, and we were like, oh, what? It's all about you guys,

and you were incredible to both me and mags, And also I also remember playing at the old Hampshire ground. And we'd arrive at the ground in our car, both me and Mags. And the first person we'd seen in the next was you with your dad on the ball on the shoe. Yeah. And we'd play. And I remember one game, me and Mags got like 10 and 12. End of the game, we walked into the car park to get in the car.

Who's in the next you? With your dad. And your dad walked up to us. And he came both to me and Anthony and said, you two can play. And your dad was prodding us in the chest. You two can play. And we kind of got in the car, I thought, oh, you know, his father, again,

I've read so much about him in the book of how driven he was and how he drove you. But it was more the fact that you were great to us, but the work ethic, the work ethic. I said, to Max, he's in the nets all the time. Yeah. So we don't practice hard enough. Look at us too.

We kind of finish our game. The first thing we're thinking about is going in the bar and having a drink or two. You were in the next practicing. Well, I was thinking about that as well, but I could I get to see a little bit. I don't think you realise at the time of what the impact you were having on us as young players being the person you were but also that that body language and presence out in the middle

was for me the best thing about the way that you played. So Judge, and that's exactly what I got when I was actually in that dressing room. As you said, you were like my sort of defensive line, you know what I mean? You know, I was sort of like, don't let them get me, boys. Don't let them get me, you know what I mean? But then obviously you weren't feeling that as you were. out of that? No, I certainly didn't have the confidence and it was actually quite great that

during the start of my career I think as you walked out they had the big screen up there and I had to look up on the screen and see how many games I've played and my average just to really give me the conference to think well I'm actually good enough to be out here on the stage at no stage. It was just wonderful playing with Lammy and Beefy as well and Gucci because I wouldn't say for a moment that they were arrogant. They certainly weren't, but they had this unbelievable confidence

to know that they were good enough to be successful at that level. And I really fed off that confidence. You're walking out to bat. You're at Lord. You walk out to bat. You're Robin Smith. And as you go through the gates,

you're having to look at the big screen and the big screen reads how many games you probably have 44 average. And that's giving you... Yeah, to remind me that I'm good enough to go out and score runs and be on that stage. So nothing before that, what's your emotions before you see those numbers on the screen?

Well, I mean, again, I just enjoyed, you know, before going out to bat, sitting and standing around, both of them and Lamb, who'd be joking and laughing. And fortunately, many times when I went out to bat. I had doubts, a huge amount of doubts. I had those thoughts of, for one, I'm a good enough. In particular when you have a two or three game period

where you're not scoring runs, it's this little gremlin in your mind that says, oh, you're going to get another failure, you know, the press are going to be on you. You know, I had this mentality then to go back to the basics. Yeah. And I thought, I'll just go back to the basis and just try and survive for a few hours

and just see it and tick off run by run. Not 10 by 10. It's like, right, just get to one, get to two, get the three. What was your mechanism? As much you've got Alan Lamb next year, you've got Ian Botham that can give you couple. But it's you. How did you get to yourself,

taking your guard of facing those deliveries? Well, exactly the same as well, what you've just said, go back to the basics. And it actually, it worries me, well, it doesn't worry me, but it surprises me that these days, now I'm starting to do quite a bit of coaching in Perth. And a few of the other parents have come up to me and said, look, I want you to teach my son, you know, 20, we play a lot of 2020 cricket, and I want you to teach them how to play these 20, 20, 20 shots. And I just say, look, I'm not. I'm, you know, I'll teach him how to become a test match player, to have a good, solid technique. And then as he grows a bit older

with a good solid technique, you can then adapt to the shorter form of the game. And as you've just said now, if you don't have a good technique, if you don't have good foundations, you know, there is no basics to fall back on. Can I just say something about technique,

I think I saw Judgey play the most immaculate forward defensive I've ever seen. I'm not going to have to go. I'm not, me and the producer are going to have to start Googling again. And get bolder Trinidad. Yeah.

Thanks for a money. Wasn't that good? Wasn't that good? Oh my God. I couldn't believe it. You've got right forward hit over the ball. The big grey nickels came down like that. And then all of a sudden there was just an explosion.

Was that the 46 all out? Yeah. I thought I played that quite well, but I was about three seconds too late. Did the nerves and the self-down? Did they end as soon as you got to the middle? Yeah. So when I got to the middle, then I started to get. get a little bit more comfortable or wasn't quite as nervous.

But it was definitely, you know, waiting to go into bad. And also, I wanted to watch before when in a bat, but also I realized that it always looked so much harder from the side. I mean, Vaughney was an opening battle, so he went out there and took on the new ball and really didn't probably have time to sit around and watch and get nervous. But when you're actually sitting from the side, it looks harder than it actually is when you're out the middle.

So for sure it's important to see what the bowler's doing and seeming and swinging, but I try not to watch too much because, you know, Vornier's talking about these little negative gremlins floating around your head and they're very, very difficult to eject with positive ones. The negative gremlins are far more powerful

than those positive ones. When I ask you actually about whether you be a different batsman nowadays, I wonder whether the dressing room would be so different now that maybe you wouldn't need that character. Look, I... It feels like the England dressing room,

for example, when you talk to them. feels like a much more cerebral place than it might have been 30 years ago. But sport in general might be like that. Yeah. Look, there was definitely, there's no coincidence that there were really two parts to my international career. The one early on with the wonderful Mickey Stewart

who was like a father and I thought was a fantastic manager. I don't think you need to be much of a coach when you're playing and, you know, when you're playing for England, we'll know what we've got to do. You need to be a good man manager. And playing with the likes of, you know, both in Gatting and Gower and Lamb and all those early on.

And sort of, and they gave me, they backed me, they supported me. They thought I was a good player. That told me every single day that I was a good enough player to be, you know, performing as I was for England. And then the second part of my career, when the old school had retired, then I became a senior player in the England side. And I've found it very difficult. I'm more of a follower than a leader. And again, I've written in the book and, you know, I wouldn't like to, the two managers that came in to manage me after Mickey Stewart,

I didn't felt that they were the right managers for me. Very, very well respected to managers. I thought that they were a little bit out of touch of the modern game at that particular time. I think I would love to have played in a bumble. Maybe I think he might have understood me more. and again brought out that best. But I don't feel, I didn't feel as if they loved me. I didn't feel as if they supported or backed me.

And, you know, and I crumbled. Well, just, you know, this era of the game, you know, the England service, as you mentioned, Chap, it has so much support for the player. And for the best. You didn't, you say, Phil, didn't you. You didn't have anything. We had a physio.

We had a physio. Well, yeah, that's correct. We had Laurie Brown, that's it. And we had the great Winger's Dingers, didn't we? Oh, well, yes. He was absolutely sensational, isn't he, Tuffus? Well, that's only because he turned up one time and then just decided not to go home. You know what I mean?

It wasn't like in a professional capacity of a bit. But you're so right, Mike. We turned up with a manager, a coach and a physio. And that was us. And we then had to go our way for four months with all the pressures at home, There was nothing there for us apart from your mates, your senior players and the team room to go and have a drink. And I think as well, when we were here in England, you know, just the amount of different players just, you know, coming in and out of the England dressing room. There's no consistency there.

So, you know, all the guys came in really playing for themselves and quite rightly so because they didn't perform well for that particular game. They might have got a second game. I mean, in first five years, I think I played. I played with 78 different England players. And that's not, yeah. Wow. Yeah. And that's not, and that's not the guys being recalled.

For example, Derek Pringle, you know, and Daffey would come and play at Heddingley all the time. And then maybe not play the next game at the Oval. So that's not. The number of bowlers who came for that one game at Heddley and then we never saw them. Neil Malinder. Yeah, Neil Malander. Down the hill. And Malcolm Marshall, through his whole career, only played with 19 players.

Wow. So this England set up, I mean, they've seen, there's lots of continuity there. The guys know each other really well. They know how each other plays. So I'm sure that there's a huge amount of, you know, team morale and, you know, and spirit within that group. But that is just an amazing stat you've just said there. So no longer, and I was involved in that stat as well.

And so no wonder you was always living on the edge of your width. Well, we all did toughers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I honestly, from day to day. I, and you would feel exactly the same. Yeah. I felt that towards, you know, in the last, I don't know,

15, maybe dozen test matches, that it was always going to be my last. Yeah. And that's how I played. Which shouldn't have been the case because I think I enrolled my career reasonably well, but we all, we all just felt that every game we played was going to be our last.

Yeah. And I guess around that time, if you were going through difficult, is the mentality around the management would be just to look at you and say toughen up. Yeah, well that was the, in those days, particularly with the two managers that I mentioned after, it was, yeah, just, you know, just toughen up. And even, you know, with Lammy and both them, if I'd actually spoke a lot about my inadequacies and how later on in my life, how, you know, I couldn't cope.

mentally they would have just said jeez judge you're bloody lucky you got a great you know great children and playing for England and look in the mirror you're half decent looking bloke and you know you're fit and healthy what are you got to worry about but people just don't understand you know you know they perceive

that you know you're this big strong bloke who's happy always got a you know a laugh and a smile and you know he's in the pub having a drink but you know looks can be very deceptive as you you know notice when I walked out to bat you know you've always this confident Robin Smith, but I certainly was far from it.

You see, I always say that to be a good captain, you've got to be a good actor. Yeah, yeah. Because you act a lot of the time. There's no way that as a leader, you walk in the dress room every morning thinking, you know, positively. There's no way that you can be great in yourself every day. So you've got to act because you can't allow your team to see you in that negative state. That's not a lot of you. Exactly.

When you look at your career, the judge, were you, you know, the, you know, the, How much kind of energy did it take from you, acting, being the judge? You know, again, I wouldn't like to say that I came across as someone who was insincere. You know, at times, you know, I love the nickname judge, you know, was used and fondly used by many people. But, but, yeah, it's always quite difficult trying to, at times, be, you know, a little bit more confident, a little bit more jovial, a little bit more outward going, you know, And this, the judge or this person that people fell in love with and Jordan loved. And it's actually quite hard work. You get in the car afterwards and drive home and think, oh, I can just be me now.

Thank God I've got rid of the judge. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, and then you walk into, you know, the corporates and all the corporates are there. And then you've got to be upbeat. And, you know, it's like down at the members bar and everybody there wants to maybe buy your drink or whatever. And you've got to be upbeat there. and it's really hard all your life to just to be, you know, upbeat and positive and, you know, and talkative and, you know, it's just, it's just, you know, playing sport, you know, there's a lot that's required of us, you know, both off and on the field.

Sorry, tough as well, no, you're just going on, just answering Mike and everything like that, you know, if you, during that early sort of 80s and 90s, you know, I mean, I had a bit of a wobble and a tear in Perth. Yeah. Did you remember that, Judge? I wasn't on the... Well, I think I might not have been on the tour. You might have been dreaming of Shaggy, I think. I'm not sure. Yeah, or something like that.

Yeah, but I had a little wobble there and, you know, sort of had a bit of a down time, problems at home and what have you like that. And, you know, and then I sort of reached out for a bit of help. And I was, you know, whist off, had a little chat with someone, came back and what have you. And then when I came back, they find me. £2,000. I know. You checked yourself

at the hospital, didn't you? Yeah, I'm fine now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you mean you got fine? I got fined. I got fined. I don't know what for. For not being, for not being with the team? Yeah, no, but for being homesick and having a bit of tear and letting things sort of like get on top of you. And so, and then also if you, and then by the almost then saying to sort of like the hierarchy or the skipper or people who, you know, who are in charge or anything like that. If you actually then went to

sort of see someone and said, oh, listen you know, I'm feeling a bit weird today, so to speak, that's a black name in your book. It is. Yeah. They just wouldn't They wouldn't pick you. They wouldn't accept it. Yeah. And I remember vividly going to Keith Fletcher and asking

Keith whether or not you know, we had a diatrition by that time and I thought, well, I think we all know what we should be eating whether it's a hamburger, hungry jacks or you know, or a or it was salad. So I think we had a pretty good idea

as to, you know, what we should be eating. But I thought that was paramount for us to have a sports psychologist and within our camp, and not just somebody that comes in the beginning of the season and has this big board up there and talk about groups

and we've got to support each other. I mean, you need somebody in the dressing room who's just quiet, just sits about it, he's qualified, he knows exactly, can pick up, you know, different characters. You know, he can learn, about the right things and things to say to each other to you know to the players and and I've generally certainly would have helped me I know it would have

helped toughers would have helped the lengths of Mark Grampachash you know hecky to to name a few I mean all of us I believe that would have really benefited from having a sports psychologist and and and Fletch then turned around and said well if you need a psychiatrist you shouldn't be playing for England in the first place I mean You know, this, and I thought, well, if it was good enough for all these, you know, great sports in America and the golfers and the top American teams to have somebody like that, you know, just around the dressing room, you know, I thought it would be good enough for good old England. And I thought when Reverend Wingfield Digby was with us, tough as you and I spent quite a bit of time with them, didn't me? Because we just loved his calming influence.

We loved, we loved the way, you know, he spoke to us. He gave us love and affection. And, you know, some people don't want that. I wanted that, you know. But also, as you made the point in one of the interviews, I think it might have been with The Guardian for the book. If the person you go to then doesn't know the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist.

Yeah, then we're in trouble. Then you're in trouble, aren't you? Yeah, I mean, I just think that era of cricket, you know, maybe just look at the people that were managed, they didn't know any better. No. You know, so they were probably playing in the areas of the 60s. the same as is where, you know, it was that old school way.

I don't even think there was psychologists back in their time. I know, we didn't have them. So why should you know, rather than being a visionary and trying to see where sports is going and the pressure. And pressure is becoming more. Yeah, sorry to interrupt before I forget. Certainly not a personal attack on those two. That is for sure because they had lovely people.

They just, again, from the old school, didn't quite understand about the, maybe the pressures of modern cricket, the insecurities that we feel. and I just know that it would have certainly helped me not just my career playing days but I think would have helped me after my Well I've always said in management

It's important to manage the person not the player The one thing that I always kind of say to any young captains If you're going to go on lead Make sure you know who you lead And so find out if the person is rather than the player is obvious You can look at the screen As you say and see an average of 40 No you're such wonderful wonderful words

Valuable words because yeah The manager is manager You manage people don't you? what else, you know, we don't, it's not called a coach, it's called manager, called manager for some reason. Post playing, I know from my experience from doing this show in a variety of sports, there are male and female athletes who struggle post their professional sporting careers, struggle mentally.

Was it a relief to leave the judge behind? Did you leave the judge behind? Or did it actually create more problems? No, no, I try to leave the judge behind. But you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, all sportsmen and women, their career will definitely come to. And if I had my time over again, I certainly would have prepared better for life after cricket. And I think the PCA these days are doing an absolutely magnificent job in supporting and helping the players.

and you know once that bubble bursts and once it's just absorbed your life for 25 years you know you don't think too much ahead you know you just think you're invincible you're just going to keep playing but when that day comes

and you don't prepare then you know and for me I gave it my all in that restroom they were my family and when you no longer have that it's very very difficult to cope with in your sort of search for interest post-c cricket.

You moved to Australia, didn't you? And in the interview, I heard with Jonathan on TMS a couple of days ago, one of the reasons you said in that interview that you spiraled into how much vodka you were drinking was a feeling that you'd let your children down by moving to Australia. Yeah, well, look, I thought after two or three years

when I'd retired from Hampshire, Hampshire were fantastic. They thought they were probably doing the right thing by offering me a role in the Robinson Suite, being an ambassador. But actually watching the guys playing, it just didn't really do me any good. And Vaughnoy, you'll probably understand what I'm saying.

Now, when I was captain of Hampshire, I always said to the senior players who just retired, well, come back in the dressing room. You know, come back and sit there and chat to the guys because, you know, your wealth of knowledge, I mean, all the younger guys coming through would just love to listen to you. And I always wondered why they know,

ever came in until I'd retired and went back into my dressing room and it's just not your home anymore it's not um it's like an intruder did you yeah yeah yeah it is you get that i mean we me and phil have been invited in the england dressing room we didn't go mike we just won't go in no you just don't always captain it was 2015 in the ashes come in come in have a drink and we were like sorry we did you just don't feel comfortable no as much as it's not the players doing anything differently than looking at they probably want you to be in there but you just go through that door And you look around and you think, this isn't my place anymore, I've had my time. You know, it's not, it's not our environment to go into that one room.

It's, it's disappointing as well, isn't it? Because it's been your whole life and you wanted to, but you just felt very young. I think that's, I think that's probably one of the hardest things to deal with in sport. Yeah, well, I'll tell you what that's one thing. I'd love to be able to go in and feel comfortable. Sure. I just don't think, I don't, I've not known any ex-players that have gone into a dress room and felt comfortable. It just didn't feel right.

No, but that dressing room, well, for me anyway, in a. funny sort of way was my safe place. Because you always used to curl up in the corner and fall in the cat, curl up in the corner and fall asleep all day. Well, that's right. That was my sort of little safe place, if you know what I mean, because it's funny you said, you know, like family

judge. That was, that was, especially county cricket, those boys, you were with these boys all day, every day, you know, you went on tours. All night, every night. And then when that is taken away from you, you know what I mean? You do sort of sit there and go, well, cricky, oh, well,

Where's my little safe place? Where's my dressing room now? And, yeah, and then you've got to start finding other ways of, you know, the power of reinvention, which I speak a little bit about in the book. And there's no one better in this world that from Philip Tuffin of the power of reinvention. Oh, goodness gracious me, buddy. And I love you on that Australian celebrity to get me out of here. You were magnificent, mate.

You won that one, didn't you? Yes, well, the only time I've come back from Australia having one. I'm here all week, I'm here all week. You've used that if you have to do this. How many of your film? So, yeah, getting back to your initial question, after those three or four years post-cringed, I decided then having a few problems with, you know,

with my marriage. I just felt a good, clean break to Australia would do me the world of good. I had a good job to go to my brother, runs a or owns a fantastic business mom and dad were over there so I go and have the support of mom and dad

Kathy Mike's wife who was also very supportive about going and the children had just Margo had just left her junior school so it was a great opportunity for her to go and meet new friends at a senior school and Harrison too was coming up towards the end of his education

school so you know so we all we all left with high expectations and you know lots of optimism and enthusiasm and I was then going to take over the Missouri helmet business and start distributing that in Australia so you know things are looking great and then you know the marriage deteriorated I started drinking more and more couldn't quite cope with the running

of the business you know just we had a great you know the helmet was a fantastic product being very well supported in Australia but I found it very difficult to run a business and eventually that that got too big I ran into cash flow problems financial cash flow problems had to sell a house to you know to

help with the cash flow my marriage broke down I was done for you know I started to drink more often instead of just having the you know the double vodka and lime and soda and then the triple wine, it would be the bottle. I'd take the bottle to work and for probably four or five years and absolutely no exaggeration.

I would have maybe a bottle and a half, two bottles of vodka a day from the bottle. What might have helped me staying sane was because I'd lost my license, I still cycle 60Ks a day. So that probably helped me keep reasonably, I don't know how it fell off the buck after two bottles of vodka. But, you know, it's just really a, you know, a functioning alcoholic. I mean, you know, I was never stumbling around. I still had a work.

I still work 12 hours a day. But you're always topping up, you know, and you get your bottle of vodka there and, you know, have a little swig. And then, you know, you feel that warmth in your veins. And for a short moment, you know, you don't have that guilt. And there's one thing. I think that if you have children, you'll understand what I'm saying. To lose the respect of your children is possibly the worst thing that any man or any wife would ever want.

And that's all I ever wanted to do was for my children to be proud of me, for them to love me. And then when they saw what sort of state I was in the way that my life was going. And the only way that I could, you know, could cope with my life was, unfortunately, alcohol. I knew that I had a stop, but I just couldn't. You know, I just had to have it every day. And as it turned out, I, Barry Richards had heard that I was having a lot of problems in Perth and he was looking to invest in a small apartment. So I bought an apartment on his behalf and lived in that apartment on my apartment.

my own for nine months in Scarborough, probably 150 yards from the beach. And again, very lonely, drinking copious amounts of vodka. And sat on the beach, looked up to this hotel and thought, no, I can't put my family through any more of this. I've got to end it. I've got to end my life. I just don't know how to stop drinking. I don't know how to get myself out of this whole.

The best thing for me is just, in it. So I knew exactly how I was going to do it. I didn't know when. It would probably have been within the next week, 10 days after that moment of planning it. Went back home, maybe a couple of days later, again curled up on the sofa in the evening. Harrison Massen had a key. He came into the apartment and just saw me just a wreck. And he just said, look, you know we love you and you know and that started my recovery and it was it was quite strange really because here with my beautiful partner we've been together for six and a half years and got down my knee a couple of days ago and proposed unfortunately she said yes it did take me it did take me

it did take me six minutes to get back unfortunately my neck of me but but Karen was Karen was there and She, it was just, it was fantastic because when she moved into the same block of apartments where I'd, when I bought my place and mom and dad were living there as well. And it was so refreshing meeting Karen because she didn't know any cricketers. Sorry, Forney, she didn't know. The only, the only cricket she knew was Shane Warn. Right. But anyway, so she did know of the Robinsmith.

So she met me when I was absolutely on the bones of my heart. And I remember that one night she came and saw me sitting around the pool. And I'd seen her three or four times. And she said, what are you going to do tonight? And I said, you know, go home. She said, you're not going home because, you know, your dad's locked you out. And I thought, well, if you really want to know the truth, Carol, I'm going to go down the road, get a couple of bottles of vodka.

I'm going to sleep next to the river because we're only 150 yards from the Swan River. And she said, no, you're not. She said, you can't take today and tomorrow. I'm going to go up and tell the children that you've been locked out of the house that mom was in the hospital at the time having a hip replacement and she went up and organised the sofa and got myself a nice cup of tea and she said well you have a good night's sleep you get on your bicycle and you cycle and go and see your mother in hospital the next day

and tomorrow is the start which it was and anyway a couple of years later I've been approached to write my book my story and we've taken down some paper and pens and we just had a beautiful walk along the river sorry along the beach and sat went on the bottom floor Karen just went and had a shower I just made myself a nice coffee

went outside sat in the balcony as I sat down one yard away from me just bang this lady had thrown herself off the 11th floor and she was breathing she was looking at me I was only two yards away from her I shouted at Karen

and said Karen suddenly tried to take their life so I jumped over the balcony and Karen joined me a minute later and we were holding her hand and she just looked at us she's still breathing

and Karen said we're here with you because the last thing you want to do is die on your own and we're holding your hand and then eventually after about three minutes just she had a last breath in them.

And I thought that's what I was going to be doing two years earlier. And that was, you know, I'm just so glad now that I'm here to tell the tale. And that's a special, you know, and I felt, you know, it was in a way, you know, so sad to have seen that. Just wonder why, you know, people do that. But, you know, as I said earlier on, some people have enough, have this thoughts about, well, I'm better, you know, off this planet, not bringing you. everybody, you know, heartbreak all the time and every day in disappointment rather being out of it. But I'm just glad that I made the right decision in the end.

Just, um, Harrison, your lad who came and opened that door. Yeah. How is you with you now? Oh, fantastic. Both, both children are absolutely fantastic. The book is a very revealing book about, about my life. It's a very honest story of my life. And not everything in theirs is probably what they want to read. But I did give them the opportunity of reading, reading the book before it was published.

And they were happy. They said, no, dad, that's fine. That's your story. And they were absolutely happy about me having the book printed because I thought it was quite revealing about different parts of my life, which I didn't think they would be necessary, you know, happy with. But again, if you're going to be a writing story about your life, it has to be honest. It has to be a truthful recollection of, you know, of your whole life. What is, you know, if you could,

because I think the book's a great lesson to many, not just sports people. Yeah. Because we all make mistakes and we all wish we could do things differently back in the day. Yeah. You know, what advice would you give to sports people now? Look, look, the advice, just in short, if you feel that things are getting in little on top of you,

if you feel that you can't quite cope, you have problems, Just go out and speak to, you know, and speak to, you know, a great friend or share your, you know, your thoughts and, you know, a problem shared as a, you know, is a problem halved. And, and for me, I just kept everything to myself, you know, I kept all my problems under the other carpet and eventually you're going to fall over the carpet. But I just think that you've got to go out there and seek some help without doubt. But that's first and foremost, don't be too proud, knowing that there's lots of love out there, lots of people that will support you and talk about it. Don't let it fester and keep it yourself because, you know, you'll just get worse. Has this, has it helped you? Writing it, has it helped you?

Because obviously you've done a lot of interviews for it as well. And have they helped? Because you've got, you're going over some incredibly personal and harrowing stuff. It's been, it's been very cathetic. And I've, you know, I've read the book over and over, and I've been in tears and, you know, and tears of joy as well. And I've, you know, I'm quite, I'm really happy. I think Rob Smythe, who, the author, I think he's been absolutely unbelievable.

From the day one, he understood me. And, you know, he's being, you know, he's able to write what I think is a lovely story. I will certainly mention my, my beautiful partner, Karen, who had spent six and a half years with me, seeing me at Rock Bottom. Fiance. Fiance, correct. When's the wedding? I love that. We won't even talk about that.

When's the wedding? Where's it happening? And, you know, and, you know, obviously, you know, going through those mental problems over a period of six years, Karen's got this fascinating memory and was able then to give Rob lots of, you know, research and lots of, you know, ideas and things. And I think collectively, the three of us, we've, what I think, if we've made a, you know, that's a book which I'm happy with. When you were on TMS during the week, here's just some of the responses, which people

wanted us to pass on their best wishes to you. So I will do just that. John Evans, just want to say thank you for the remarkable interview with Robin Smith. He was one of my heroes growing up. I thought he was invincible. He demonstrated great bravery again with the interview. It's wonderful to hear about his path to recovery. Chris Hampton, I was very sad to hear about Robin's problems,

but how brave of him to speak so openly about it. Please pass on the best wishes of all my family who remember him so fondly. Ken McDonald, Robin Nees, know that all of the cricket fraternity, whether ex-players or supporters wish him every success in his future ventures and to hear his heartfelt interview as an inspiration to all. Hopefully you guys get this message to him to let

him know that the cricket family are thinking of him. Nigel Morgan, it just goes to show you never know what the next man is going through Robin is an inspiration to us all. Ken Dix, I can't just say how uplifting it was to hear Robin Smith talk about his struggles. Although our

experiences are very different, I do know what it is like to use vodka to hide from the world it was great to hear such an honest and open interview and if you could pass on my thanks to Robin I would be grateful and there are many more oh that's lovely and and if they are listening to us chan-in today I'm so grateful and thank you so much for those wonderful words

and it's fantastic it's been fascinating talking to you and it has been lovely lovely to meet you thank you for the memories thank you for inspiring us all in the back garden and you are happy are absolutely thrilled. How can I not be thrilled with the beautiful fiancé, as you mentioned it to me earlier on?

No, very, very happy, very thrilled where I am now compared to where I was five years ago. Just couldn't be happier. We wish you all the very best. Thank you so much. Yes, Tufford. Robert, one thing. Robin, oh, I said.

Well, no, well, there you go. Well, there you go. Because this might not be the right thing to say, but you'll always be known as the judge to me, man. Love you, Judgey.