Test Match Special - Tuffers and Vaughan: “We’re a long way off confirming West Indies tour”

Episode Date: May 13, 2020

Mark Chapman, Phil Tufnell and Michael Vaughan bring you the latest on when we may get some live cricket. West Indies chief executive Johnny Grave joins the discussion. Plus, they look back 10 years to England’s World T20 win and debate the best commentator XI.

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Phil in his usual place in the kitchen. Is the phone off the hook? Yes, yes. During question of sports or Saturday afternoon, Michael, his phone rang. I know. Yeah, your landline rang, didn't it? Yeah, it was a case of phone a friend, that was for sure. Phil, how often does your landline ring?

Well, not often, but it just chose that opportune moment, just a spark into life. And I'm surrounded actually by a few dishes now because I've just rustled up myself a lovely stroganoff. Oh, very nice. By the way, who was ringing you on Saturday afternoon when they were trying to sell you something? Yeah, I know.

I keep buying some very strange stuff during lockdown. I'm going to have a load of stuff that is just, I don't know what to do with at the end of it. I was trying to bumble on Saturday afternoon on the guest list and he bought a load of manure off QVC because the gardening expert on QVC and said it had the aroma of dark chocolate. And it was safe to say,

Bumble doesn't think it has the aroma of dark chocolate when he got it. Interesting. Very interesting. We're going to talk to the Chief Executive West Indies cricket very shortly. Where do you think we're at, Michael, with how the game is going to look then this summer? Well, first and former,

I think the government have created a little bit of optimism with what they've done this week. You know, it's down to you whether you agree or you don't agree, but they've given sport, you know, a bit of optimism. I've had a few holes of golf today for the first time in nine weeks, which was lovely. And you know, I'm hit... Not bad. Not bad.

Best when I'm fresh. None of that baggage in the head, you know, you just whack the ball, don't you? When you've never played for a few weeks. Yeah, quite nice. A loss, though. General kind of story with my lad. But I think what's happening, I think it's given us all a bit of optimism. that sport could potentially happen.

You know, I know they're looking at these biosecure venues. That's the worst case scenario. Obviously, they have to be completely biosecure. There's taught that throughout the period of international cricket, whatever they may get, it might be eight to nine weeks. Players, I'm led to believe those that enter the biosecure environment may not be able to leave that biosecure environment. So I think that's the worst case scenario.

I'm pretty sure over the next few weeks. we may see a different picture and a different story start to unfold but as we speak now the ECB I think are trying to create this biosecure environment to make sure that they get these test matches and a few one day games

we're going to speak to Johnny Graves to see the West Indies Creek Bullies you mentioned Chapas he'll give us a lot more from their perspective about coming over etc flights coming up do they come 14 days before you think they will will they have to bring another group of players for the warm-up games because you can't think that they're

going to have any warm-up games with any counties like you would normally get, so they'll have to bring more players over. Ingle will have to have a bigger group of players for the same reason as well. They'll need warm-up games. Again, they'll have to have them between themselves. So there's so much to tune and thrown in terms of the organisational side, but as we speak, that is what is being planned for the summer. Yeah, so we're looking at, we're looking at, or the proposal being,

international cricket taking place in a biosecure environment with, as Michael has alluded to larger squads of players effectively in quarantine together at a couple of grounds with on-site hotels which would imply wouldn't it? Hampshire and it would imply the Jius Bowl and Old Trafford with the hotels on

on site. There may then be back-to-back tests at the same venue and then they'd decamp to the other one also warm-up games at the venue too. That in essence is the proposal, Phil. Yeah I mean it's a crummer comfort isn't it? Something to sort of hang on to that we're going to get some cricket.

Boys on tour, it sounds like to me. The England team sort of like on a road show going up and down the country, cramming in as many games as you can. I think they're going to have to think about that because other sort of countries are going to be trying to, you know,

cram in games and itineries and is there going to be enough time and what have you? But at least there is something then to hang on to, isn't there, that we are going to get some cricket, hopefully. And I'm sure that they've done all the the sort of logistics and the background.

The one good thing about professional sport and especially, you know, if you're all on tour and everything, is that you can be monitored. You know, there's doctors there, there's testing facilities there, there's physios there. They struggle to monitor you when you were on tour. Well, no, well, things have slightly changed, Michael. Yes, they couldn't find me usually.

But, you know, but I mean, they're sort of like, oh, it's in effect it's going to be like going on tour, isn't it? Yeah, I think this, Phil, I think this is obviously it's unprecedented times and what has to be done will be done

but I really do fear if you've got 30 players that are going to have to be potentially locked up in their own country at cricket in venues you've got the Aegeas Bowl and then potentially Old Trafford

I heard Edge Bastard mentioned but I can't see that because they don't have a hotel Headley has a travel lodge in the corner that I guess that could be another venue if you're asking 30 players because you need 30 players for the warm-up game

games and realistically you're only going to use 16 to 17 players max you know i really do worry about you know and then people say our cricketers used to be on tour of course they are when you're overseas you get on a plane you can't just nip home it's different when you're in the UK you're so used to playing the game and then getting in your car and getting back to your family straight after the match to think that a group of 30 cricketers could be locked up to eight to nine weeks at the same venue i think it will be a huge huge mental challenge for those players. I really do. And maybe the media that have to be there as well.

I'm sure the ground stuff, you're saying a groundsman goes to the venue and he breaks the biosecuring environment. He can't leave. That's what I'm being told. So I think we're in, you know, it's unprecedented times. It has to be done in a way because we need the TV money in for the game, but I do worry about

players and personnel that will have to spend potentially eight to nine weeks locked up in their own country. Yeah, I think that I think that the players will be able to handle it as you say easier than the support staff and you're playing phil if you're playing imagine if you're one of those 10 or 12 that you're just there for the warmth and you're just got to stay in the biosecure environment for a few weeks and do nothing but watch you better

make sure that the hotel bar's got enough beer in that's all I'm saying I just don't see how you could do that no I don't see how you could do that and and it also also in all of this and and cricket isn't alone in this and I've seen a couple of articles on on it that you know getting it getting sport back to get the tv money and make sure everything is financially okay is one thing but fans or people watching are going to have to believe in what they are watching rather than people going through the through the motions generally chappers just to get the tv money for their employees high-end sports people are as good as the eyes because they can deal with the crowds and the emotion of the day and the noise.

So I'll be very intrigued if all the games are played behind closed doors, which it looks like they're going to be, that you might actually find those players that are so good in front of the crowds and the noise, they might just drop in performance levels. And there might be two or three in the team who actually don't like the noise in the crowd who might find it a little bit easier. So the mental side of coping with playing will be absolutely fascinating. Yeah, I think you're right though, chappas. I think they've still got to keep

or try to keep that sort of integrity of the game. It can't just be sort of like a cobbled together. I mean, I was hearing that they sort of, is they can't shine the ball so they might put wax on it or something and get it from the umpire and things like that. We're all absolutely, you know, gagging for cricket and gagging for sport.

Yeah, I think so. Is it all the empire has a candle? Well, yeah, or something. I don't know, a bit of Vaseline in his pocket or something. but you know you've still got to keep the integrity of sort of the product haven't you yeah exactly otherwise it just becomes well actually you may as well just go and watch the boys have a net you know what I mean yeah it's like a middle practice isn't it yeah it's right integrity and intensity yeah yes and that's what professional sport at the highest level is all about if there

isn't that intensity you'll be very very you'll be amazed how quickly it all becomes just like as you say, a kickabout over the park. Yeah, but what, at this stage in, you know, in the cricketing game, what is it more important? Is it that money comes in from the television, which the game desperately needs, and if that we see a game of cricket that is 15 to 20% down in intensity, but we get the money in for the game in general,

you know, what are you going to go for? Yeah, yeah. Let's, England, hoping to play test matches against the Pakistan and the West Indies, started with the West Indies. Chief-exec, Johnny Grave, joins us from Antigua now with a smile on his face as Tupperes and Vaughney are waving at him, like, over-exhaired. I was expecting him to do it from a, like, a sun lounge on one of those golden beaches. As you understand it, Johnny, what is the latest plan?

Evening, by the way, thank you for joining us. Yeah, good afternoon. I mean, yeah, our latest plan is very much we continue to discuss the tour with the UCB. we had a, what I would say was a proper conversation on the 1st of May with everyone that is directly involved in what would be putting together the tour. So from the head coaches and captains all the way through to clearly being led at the moment by the medical practitioners. So both CMOs were on the call as well. So we've got the next meeting planned with the ECB on Monday. So I expect to hear more plans and updates than the ECB on Monday.

on the back of the government announcement that sport may be allowed to be played behind closed doors from June onwards. Johnny, tough as here, mate, how are you? I'm well, thank you, how are you? Good man, nice to see you. What's the players sort of reaction to this? Are they sort of like looking forward to it?

Are they going to come over, come what may, or have they got some reservations about it? Yeah, look, we started the process of what I would call information sharing with the players and sensitizing them to what what the tour may look like. Clearly, it would be a completely unprecedented tour. The environment would be very, very different for the players,

not just in terms of training and playing, but just the whole, you know, what an England tour would be. And, you know, our players are very much looking forward to what was pretty much unprecedented preparation. We were going to have a camp in Antigua, followed by a 10-day camp in the Rose Bowl, and then three proper first-class warm-up games against the England line and counties ahead of that first test.

match against the Oval. So we'll be looking at a very, very different tour, and we started now to speak to a wide pool of players who may make up the squad and just brief them on the information that we've got to date and take any questions. And as I say, sort of start to sensitize them to what the tour may look like if we get as far as that. Johnny, Vaughney here, you've mentioned that you've had discussions already with the ECB, and we've kind of read a lot about the biosecure environment.

that's potentially going to be created around the venues. What can you tell us about those biosecure environments? Not a great deal at the moment, to be honest, for all. It's changing and evolving all the time. I don't know what version we're on on the medical plan, but it's certainly several iterations of it. And what I think it would be is the players would be very much in a bubble. And they would be certainly from the point of arrival in the UK,

they would be very much isolated from anyone that doesn't need to be in direct contact with them for the entire length of the tour, which we said to the ECB we'd want four weeks of preparation before the first test. And I think realistically, ECB are trying to get as much international cricket back in the summer as possible. So probably looking at almost three back-to-back test matches, starting on a sort of Wednesday, Thursday and a Friday. So it would be seven weeks of pretty much training at the ground, staying at the ground, and very much being isolated within that hotel environment. And Johnny, how have the players been when you pass on that kind of information of this is what an England tour is now potentially going to look like? How have the players reacted to that?

I think everyone's different. What I would say is that the sheer number of people that have either contracted the disease, in the UK or sadly passed away is, you know, is a huge number and one where, you know, if you're from a country and growing up in a country where the population might only be 60 or 70,000 people, to be thinking around over 30,000 deaths, you know, is a massive figure in real terms

when you're talking about half of your country. So I think in terms of mindset, our players will be very nervous in terms of going to the UK. I think they will want, you know, We would want, you know, we've made it very clear. And Tom Harrison that everyone at the ECB has said that, you know, that the most paramount importance to all of us is the health and safety of our players, that yes, obviously the ECB have a lot of money riding on this in terms of TV,

but there's going to be no sort of coercing players into this tour. We have to be absolutely clear that it's safe first and foremost. And then if it is, share the information that we have. and obviously try and make life as comfortable as we possibly could for those players. So I hope that we can get to the stage sooner rather than later, maybe not on this tour, but we've got to get live cricket and live sport back being played. It's the lifeblood for the game of cricket everywhere in the world. And we've got to get back playing cricket.

And I think the cricketers that pretty much across the Caribbean have been in complete, you know, lockdown 24-hour curfews, you know, chomping at the bit to get back playing the sport they love. We're not going to rush it in it, but it is going to be very, very different. And we're a long way off being able to, I think, confirm whether the tour would happen or not. Is there a – and actually I realise, you know, the West Indies being a collective group of nations that, you know, there isn't one definite political will. But is there a public and political will for the West Indies to tour England? I mean, we've talked on this show.

If it was the other way round, then I can't imagine. there would be too many people keen to send England cricketers to somewhere which had such, you know, well, had the highest number of casualties on a continent, which is what the UK has. Yeah, I think I've been surprised by the general, pleasantly surprised, should I say, with the sort of solidarity among members.

You know, I think West Indies have always been, you know, very amenable to helping other nations out. You know, we were the first team to take our men's and women, team to Pakistan when no one else was willing to go. And we followed a really clear process of that time it was it was security advisors giving us independent security advice this time. We've almost replaced those with medical experts. Now you're asking West Indies to go to England which will incur match fees and cost to us and yet receive absolutely no revenue. So it sort of adds to the point of why on earth would you go to England but your players at risk when all the

upside financially is to the ECB and there's none to West Indies but that's actually the model in which bilateral cricket is played and maybe part of getting back to playing cricket us as administrators can re-look at that and reappraise whether or not that's creating the best the best platform for the game to grow and the game to be competitively fair and balanced and Johnny would you bring that up now as you're in discussions to bring the team over here I don't think we we won't be bringing up directly with ECB but you know me I don't need an excuse to bring up

the economic disparities of world cricket but I think at some point I think we're certainly probably forced more than most countries in the world we've got to sort of rebuild our cricket from the bottom up because we might not be able to travel or the risks of travel or the different quarantine

requirements between different countries we might not be able to get our first class or professional cricket back on within the Caribbean. So we're almost forced to look at this as to how do we get cricket back on for the grassroots up? And I think probably we have all been too focused at the top of the game and probably being completely honest, the top of the men's game.

And I think this does give us the opportunity to completely re-look at our entire cricket structures within our countries. And I hope that if we're doing that as individual, you know, cricketing boards at the ICS, and all the boards can look at that world, that world sort of dynamic as well because ultimately these games are world test championships.

You know, we're now playing in a league structure and, you know, therefore, you know, maybe that American model of you're only as strong as your weakest team will come through and we can share a bit more in the revenues because, as I've said many times before, there's never been more money in the game yet three months down the road from the pandemic

and, you know, many of the countries, and many of the counties and states are going to be in significant financial difficulties. Johnny, you said earlier that you're in conversations and it seems a long way off, sort of, you know, hand on heart. Can you see this tour actually coming, happening? Yeah, I think I can.

I think naturally I'm optimistic and, as I said before, it's in everyone's interest to get the live sport back being played because without it, broadcasters won't pay and sponsors won't pay if we're not delivering the live product. That said, I just think we, you know, ECB have got a long way to go to get UK government approval to be absolutely certain that biosecure cricket will work. And then secondly, you know, you can imagine logistically here, we're probably going to

have players across at least eight or nine countries, all with different levels of restrictions in terms of COVID-19 and logistically to get the players all to one airport and then probably out on one plane is going to be a logistical challenge, but certainly not insurmountable. And I think if everything goes well and we don't get, you know, spikes of outbreaks or any sort of adverse news and we continue to trend and track in the right way, I think we're right to be optimistic. And I think we have to try and get the live game back on as soon as it's safe to do so. And Johnny, are the grounds that we're here in a Gius Bowl and Old Trafford,

that's what you've been told as well, maybe headily because they've got the travel lodge in the corner? Yeah, we've not really gone into that level of detail of discussions. Obviously, I myself knowing all the venues, I think, you know, Rose Bowl would be one that stands out on the basis. It's the South Coast, you know, you know, our players better than I do, Vaughney, you know, the thought of going to Durham or the Arctic Circle, as they call it, wouldn't necessarily be their first place.

I think the Rose Bowl, but also because it's out of town, because it's, you know, it's got that 18-hole golf course, even if you don't play golf, but from a mental perspective, to be able to get out of the cricket ground, the net area, the hotel area,

to be able to just go and walk along a golf course in a biosecure area, I think would create less of a risk to our players and be more of a, you know, if you're going to base yourself there for four weeks, so certainly if you're easing your way into a biosecure venue then that would that would clearly be my preference but

it's very much in ECB tour so we'll be listening to them we'll obviously be ensuring that our players are going to be well looked after but at the same time it's very much up to them to come and we haven't got into that level of detail yet you're going to have to put a lot

of resource aren't you into the mental care of your players I'm sure you do already but as we've all spoken about you know if quarantine and cooped up in hotels and not able to explore the places where you're touring by the odd walk of a golf course is going to take its toll on these young men. Yeah, look, I mean, everyone tours differently.

You know, some players barely leave the hotel or the cricket grounds anyway. But obviously, the UK tour in particular, where most of our players will have friends and even family, it's one of those iconic doors for us. And therefore, it will be very strange and difficult. and as I said earlier, I'm precedented. So, look, I think that's, we'll soon hopefully get into that level of detail and, you know, I'll sure our players will want to have, you know, their own food and Caribbean chefs and all these little things

that whilst they sound like sort of demands, I just think will be the small things that make life better and more comfortable and ultimately more manageable because we want this to be a really good, a world test championship. We proudly hold the Wisden Trophy and we want to defend it and we want it to be the sporting contest that everyone would expect it to be. And, you know, I think we can get to that place, how quickly we can get there. Obviously, we'd be led by ECB initially in the UK government.

And then we've clearly got some work to do at our end in terms of getting, you know, our own board of directors and medical advisors. And then ultimately the player is comfortable with what the tour may look like. But I think, you know, if nothing adverse happens and we continue to track, down the curve of COVID-19, then I think we can at least be optimistic that there's a chance. Johnny, who would you expect to pay for the extra players? You need to ask me that, do you, Forney? I think, as far as I concerned, our starting point would be, and we're not looking to use

this as an opportunity at all, we would just say that we would expect to pick up the cost that we would normally expect it to pay when we tour England. And that predominantly is the match fees and now under the new terms of the World Test Championship, our player allowances, etc. So anything really over and above that, I think it's only fair and reasonable that at least our starting position would be to say to the ECB, look, you've got all the revenue. These are, you know, one-off cost that have to be incurred. And we've got no revenue ultimately to pay for them. So it would need to be on your account.

Johnny, appreciate you giving us your time this afternoon where you are. Thank you very much for coming on and giving us your thoughts. It really is appreciated. Thank you. Pleasure. Thank you, Johnny Grave, Chief Executive of West Indies Cricket from Antigar. It's going to be a nightmare, isn't it? It's going to be a logistical night. Yeah, but Johnny's point there, you know, about all the benefits when you're the visiting team,

the financial benefits go to the home. home team and, you know, you're coming over... Chapas, ECB have to pay for that? Yeah. Or if it's not the ECB, the ICC have to pay for it. You can't be expecting a West Indies team to come over here with 12 extra players and for them to cover the cost of those extra members of staff. It's a huge amount of money.

You know, the ECB or the ICC, one of the other, have got to cover the cost of those West Indies players coming over here. Yeah, and I'll tell you something as well. I mean, I'll make you right, Chappas. as you were saying earlier on, that, you know, if I was a West Indian cricketer, you know what I mean,

I don't know whether I'd fancy it. You know, like some people, you know, choose to turn, not to go on certain tours and this, that and the other for political reasons or what have you,

you know, yeah, I mean, I'd be thinking to myself, well, hold on a minute, you know, I mean, you're looking at the figures and everything, I don't know where I fancy going.

Phil, it's going to be such a mental challenge for, you know, for any players. Yeah, you'd be terrified, wouldn't you? The young West Indies team, and there's a lot of,

lot of young, young players in that group, they'd want to come over here and get out, see friends, and to think that they're going to be locked up for seven. I mean, Johnny said, if we're getting off a play and they won't see anybody other than their group for seven. Do you just like being in the Big Brother house for seven or eight weeks?

Well, it is, isn't it? In the jungle. Yeah, yeah. It is. So it's easy for us, and I want cricket to happen, of course I do, and the game needs to happen because we need that money in, but it's going to be so, so hard for the both sets of

players it really is and it's obviously there's low screeching down there's so many worse off of course there are sport we're very lucky but you know these these young players you know they do have a mental health side as well that we need to look after yeah and you're right and touring and playing cricket and sport at the highest level is all about a lot of it is state of mind isn't it but I just switch off yeah well that's right but there's nowhere to go and you don't want to see a load of people sort of like turning out to play cricket with their heads down and sort of going oh my good you know this This is, I don't want to be here.

Do you know what I mean? I don't want to be here. You've got to somehow sort of look into the future for that to make safe safeguard about that. Because if you're not happy in yourself, you're not going to be going out there throwing yourself at the game, are you? And you're right, Michael. We are very lucky to work in sport, and cricketers are very lucky to be able to play cricket a professional level and represent their country. But if you're asking people to, you know, travel to a different country, be locked up for six, seven, eight weeks, whatever it is. not really be able to go out and a country which has had the number of casualties that this

country has had, that is going to take some persuading. I also look chappers, you know, say that the games are played at Old Trafford. You know, you've got Jimmy Anderson, he's got two little daughters at home, you lose 10 minutes from there, yet he's not allowed out. I just found it'll be, you know, Joe Root's about to be a father for the second time. You know, he may have to miss a game early July, but if he joins there, you know, is it that he can then knock him back and see his newborn baby?

It's all very complicated. I think there's a lot of work to be done to make sure that cricket gets played and if it is in this biosecure environment where you're going to be in quarantine for eight to nine weeks, I think it's going to be very, very difficult. I think a few things need to change before. Can't they somehow sort of like speed the process up a little bit?

You know, I mean, let's be fair, I mean, everyone wants to have, you know, warm-up games, don't they? And every, you know, do you really need warm-up games? You know, do you need, what was Johnny saying there, four warm-up games? Do you really need that? I mean, because you're talking about time span here and about people being in lockdown and quarantine and what have you. Is there no way that it can be condensed a little bit, perhaps?

Well, I'm sure they'll be looking at every, have you, when you go back to the players, particularly the touring teams, you know, they're going to have 14 days, quarantine, so they've got 14 days to prepare for that first game. You know, you look at the ground staff, you know, you need someone to roll the wicket, unless it's like the old-school days back at the club, you know, will we as broadcasters? Will we be sat on the boundary? We'll be the ball boys and girls lobbing the ball back and then at tea time, me and toughies, we'll have to go and roll the wicket. Yeah. Do you think, do you think on, and his wider point on whether

this could, you know, whether this could eventually see the game reset a little bit and, you know, not all the money going in certain directions and, you know, the money that comes in from tours, how that is shared, all of those discussions. Do you think that's realistic or do you think that's being slightly naive? And the reason I say slightly naive is because their rumours go around that India might want to stage the IPL in the autumn. So that to do that, they offer Australia some extra matches to postpone the current world T20 until next year?

There'll be so many negotiations chappas. There are rumours that the IPL will be played when the T20 World Cup was supposed to have been played and it could be in India with just Indian players that's one whisper. Then that's the whisper that you've just mentioned

that there could be potentially a tri-series in Australia at the same time between England believe it or not. Australia and New Zealand. The T20 World Cup would maneuver itself to February March next year in Australia. The T20 World Cup in India next year would maneuver itself to 2022. You know, you look at Pakistan, you know.

We've not mentioned Pakistan that they're due here. Will Pakistan use it as a negotiation? Yet we'll come, but by the way, we'd like you to come to our country next year to play a bit of cricket. You know, the England side, due to play Pakistan next year. You know, you've got to come and play three T20s in Pakistan. You know, we've not played there for so long. I think people shouldn't use it, though.

But I think they will fill. And I think Johnny's right that the game has been lopsided and it's getting even more lopsided. And maybe it just is a leveller for many of the countries to go back in and say, come on, you need our help at this stage, but we've needed your help for quite a while. Why don't we just get back down the negotiating table? Yeah, it's going to be a bumfight, isn't it?

It's going to be a bubble fight. Everyone's going to be looking after their own little sort of bit of the game. isn't it? But I think that then people have got to rise above that a little bit, I think, you know what I mean? And for the good of the game, for the good of the game, they've got to start, as you said, you know, pay for the extra West Indies side to come out, you know, or the extra players. People shouldn't at this stage use it as a negotiator, COVID-19 as a negotiating tool. Do you know what I mean? No, I don't know. I think there'll be conversations that lead to that negotiation. negotiation, rather than COVID, this is why we're at the negotiated table again. But I think there will be some strong chats behind the scenes about what Johnny said, because the game is lobsided. You know, it does need to level out a little bit.

But that lobsided nature of the game will be enhanced, surely. If the IPL dictate that the World T20 moves, then that highlights how lobsided the game is. It highlights how powerful India are. You know, that's the biggest highlight. I said a few weeks ago, I think the IPL is very, very important for the game. I really do. After the World Cups, it's the second biggest TV revenue. You know, so I think it is important for the game.

I think it's important that players are allowed to go and earn the amount of money that they do so over the six to eight week period. You know, you're looking at central contracts, chappas. You know, England players, they'll sign another central contract potentially in September. It'll be different to the one that they signed last year, clearly because. because of the monetary problems that the game will have. All the series will have to try and be squeezed in. Wispers again that Sri Lanka that we missed out on a couple of months ago will be played in January.

England go to India. Then there could be the T20 World Cup. Then there's obviously the IPL. Will they then try and squeeze maybe some of the games that we've missed this year into next year's calendar? England players and England of the ECB have done very well with the players over the last few years where they've allowed them that window where they've gone and been able to play in the air.

IPL and earn the big money that, you know, the real quality players deserve, you know, if that gets taken away and you're the likes of Ben Stokes, Josh, Butler, Joff, Archer and the ECB said, oh, you're not going to be able to have your full IPL conscience. And next year is the round where you go back into your big deal. So we're back from to square once. And you imagine what Ben Stokes potentially could earn next year when every single team can bid for him once again. You know, I believe players in short careers deserve that window.

You know, we had the arguments years ago. 2010-11 Kevin Peterson fell out with the England team because of it I'm sure we won't get to that stage again but I would hope

that the ECB will allow the players that opportunity to go and play in the IPL sorry just a guess I've got some mixed messages here is that

there'll be so much cricket that the ECB might say we need you for this or we need you for that but then the other side of that is if central contracts are reduced the players are going to go

well yeah The money over there is still there in the IPL, so we're going. Well, it's the first year, if I'm right in thinking this year, where the IPL would have finished before the international calendar started. The season this year was due to start on June the 4th, internationally, which allowed all the England players to potentially go on, if they got the contracts, they'd go and play,

I would think the majority of the Indian Premier League. Will they, in the calendar next year, be able to give the England? and players two months, and it might get to the stage where those games in May that they might have to, I'm just kind of preempting what might happen. They might put some games in May because they have to, and it might be that those games are as, you know, nothing's less important when you're representing your country, but it might be that you can still allow Ben Stoach, Joffre Archer and Co. to be in the IPO while those England games are taking place because they're not, you know, that the Premier Standard or the highest, uh, the highest, uh,

the teams coming over. It might be just a lesser tea. I'm not diminishing any of the teams, but you get where I'm coming from, that you might have to allow the England players who have got those big contracts to play in the IPR to earn that money. Yeah, tough as that makes sense? Well, yeah, it does a little bit,

but then surely everyone realises it is that when we're coming out of this and sort of like things are going to be a little bit higgledy, pittledy, so if England was then to sort of, yeah, I can't even try to say that. So, you know, I think people will have to then realize that. I mean, it's not, you know, and if you're going to have to, let's say,

miss out on an IPL contract for one year, just to kind of, you know, get the game. You can't, though, Phil, because it's the next round. The next round of, so next year, you get a two-year contract. And then the year after, it's like, well, that's what I'm saying. You've got to be fortunate to get the deals.

Next year is that when all the players go back into the hat, you get that afternoon where the auctioneer throws the names in that, all the teams bid. And that is next year for the players. players. Yeah. You know, it's a fresh start for the war. Yeah, but then people must realize that it's a fresh start for cricket as well.

And there's, you know, and hopefully people will be given a little bit of a leeway and a little bit more flexible that sort of like, it's not all about then just sort of like coming back out of lockdown and all chasing the dollar. No, but it's not. But you've just going to be real about the players and fair to the players in this era of the game. It's different that you might get to a stage of the ECB come to you as an England player.

you're Phil Tuffington, but you've got a big contract in the IPL. You're going to be the number one star in that auction. And the ECB say to you, Phil, by the way, your central contract, it's gone down by 25% because of what's happened. You go, well, okay. And by the way, you can't play half of the IPL either. Whereas before, you could play the IPL and you had 25% more on top of your contract. What are you going to do as an individual play?

You've got to be fair to the players that they, in my opinion, should get the opportunity to go and earn that kind of money. Career short. Fullum cricket centres a text saying I was very impressed with Johnny Graves and didn't realise touring teams get no revenue from tours. Excellent here is CEO talking of building the grassroots and focusing on that. Their whole first class structure may be gone if no travel.

Just on grassroots, do you think there's any chance of recreational cricket? I realise you're not in government, so it's quite difficult plans on this. I hope so. Could you see it? No, no, Phil. No, I can't. As you say, if we're talking about bio-secure venues and this is, you know, and lockdowns

and, you know, you just can't go over the park and have a game of cricket or a game of football anymore. I just can't see how that's going to happen. Yeah, at this stage, I'll say, it's unlikely. But I've got a little bit of optimism that things could improve and you could get a system in August and September where you could play a T-20 star tournament in and around your counties.

You know, I'd like to think that we could get to that. I think it's going to be very difficult for county cricket because of the monetary side of putting the games on and also playing players. Furlow has been pushed back to October and I think a number of the counties might use that. I'm hoping that if we can get recreational cricket, we may find that the standard will be better than ever

because all the county players will want a game so you'll end up with your county players playing a bit of recreational cricket. All the academy members will be playing for their local teams. and it could be the standard of recreational cricket could be outstanding if we get to that safe zone where some recreational junior cricket

could be played. Again, it's a long shot, it's a long way off, but I'm semi-optimistic that we might get some recreational cricket later in the summer. I'm going to hear from Kevin Peterson and Paul Collingwood shortly

about England winning the World T20 in the West Indies a decade ago. But we've been doing these challenges during lockdown, various all-time world 11s. We've done alphabetical batting order. We've done one from each country.

We've done two from each decade. This is your greatest world 11 with players who have gone into the commentary box after playing. Now, so people like David Sire and Jack Ruhl both did two teams. They did one for TV and one for radio, which is very impressive. So David TV,

Senile Gavaska, Graham Smith, Ricky Pontingy, Ian Chappell, Kevin Peterson, Adam Gilchristy and both of Sean Pollock, Wazimakram, Shane Warren and Michael Holding. Wazimacrams always. Wazimakram could get into any team. Yeah. We should try and do one every, we should try and do one at some point of how not to get Wazimakram into your World 11. The radio one, Jeff Boycott, Alistair Cook, Serviv, Michael. George R. Wardener, Jeremy Coney, Alex Stewart, Graham Swan, Terry Alderman, Darren Goff and Glenn McGrath. And he's got Jeremy Coney as the captain there.

Phil, what's your 11 of players that have gone into the commentary box? Right, okay. Well, I've started off with Graham Smith. Yeah. Again, yours truly, Michael Vaughn, opening a batting. I'm going on you first. You've got him, you're in. Smith of Vaughn, yeah. You've been selected.

in my head. I've got Ricky Ponting, Sir Viv Richards, and then I might have had a little bit of a meltdown here because I've decided to pick three wicket-keeper batsmen just in case they get a bit tired

or someone breaks a finger. I've gone for Sangha-Cara, Brendan McCullum. Oh, yes. As a little off the wall, yes. And of course, Adam Gilchrist. And then I've gone for Worn Akram.

Glenn McGrath. and Michael Holding. Oh, very good. No place for yourself, Tupper's. Oh, 12th man. 12th, as in everyone. Phil, I'll start with that. You are my 12th man.

Thank you very much. The Calf, Tufnell on every tour. I start with Boycott, Jeffrey and Michael Slater. Oh, yeah. Slater in number two. Ricky Ponting. Alan Border, skipper, Mark Waugh. Junior War, wonderful play.

He's my all-round. And I was deliberating my number six. It's either Harsha Bogley, just because I like him and he's a lovely chap. Or VVS Latfman, but VVS just pipped at Harsha. VVS, you've got the nod. Adam Gilchrist or Henry Blowfield behind the stones. Oh, blow, it's lovely. Again, sorry, blowers, but I went for Gilly.

Shame warm, Sean Pollock. It was number 10, Michael Holden or Aggers. Right. Sorry, Jonathan, but Michael gets the nod. And number 11's Ian Bishop. Oh, you have got a bit of pace there. Oh, you have got some pace. I think, I think, who is it?

Agers or who? Michael Holding. Michael Holder. I think the difference between that is about 45 miles an hour. Although next week, you could put Agaggers in your all-time World 11 because we're looking for players who have played fewer than 10 test matches. So Jonathan could be on there. Vic could be on there as well.

Barry Richards, Graham onions, Mike Procter. So players who have played fewer than 10 test matches. By the way... Do they have to have played test cricket? Or can it be... Yes, they have to have played test cricket. Yeah, they have to have played at least one, but fewer than 10. There is one person who has combined the last three challenges,

which is alphabetical in the commentary box. Oh, no, hang on. All-time Test 11 using one player per nation, two per decade. and an alphabetical batting order. Stephen Barker did this, right? Atta Patti from the 90s, Sri Lanka, Atherton, England, 80s, border Australia 70s,

Flowers in Barboy 90s, O'Brien Island from the 2010s, Shackibal Hassan, Bangladesh from the 2000s, Sobers from the 60s, Dale Stain from the 2000s, Venkatara, oh, I knew I was going to stumble over. Venka Tarragaran from India from the 60s,

Wagner, from New Zealand from the 10s and Eunice Pakistan from the 80s. Alphabetical order, one per country and two per decade. That is seriously impressive. That guy's been in lockdown, aren't he?

Yeah. Right, this Saturday marks the 10th anniversary of England winning their first ever global tournament, men's tournament, the World T20 and the West Indies. Test match, special commentary team of the match, commentary of the match will be played in full on Saturday afternoon on Sports Extra.

There's also a special podcast on the TMS feed. Paul Collingwood was the captain, man of the series, Kevin Peterson, have been talking through the tournament and here they are on the final. The one particular moment

where I knew that it was going to be our day was when we were leading the mascots out to the anthems. And every player gets a whole of a mascot's hand. And they're all lined up. The players are lined up from either end. And the mascots come in. And I had a young girl and as you do

you want to make them feel comfortable you're asking what their name is and she looked at me and she said my name is Lucky and I literally just kind of the warmth in my heart I promise you

I just I turned around to Brody and said Brody we've got this we've got this mate I said this young girl's name is Lucky I said that's that's just a great sign

and off we went and we went in the line and we sang the anthems and I generally just thought we're okay today we're going to be okay and now it all comes down to what we're going to hear over the next three hours or so the dancers taking up their positions we've got the opening bats when Australia was put into bat also in their position run side bottom's going to bowl the first The start that we had city was just on fire. And side bottom, hair everywhere, comes rushing in bowls outside the off-stump, a carving stroke,

and is that a catch? It is a brilliant rebound catch at Slip. Kiesfetter dropped it originally, as Watson there was forcing off the back foot. It went into the keeper's gloves, it bounced up, and Grand Swan at Slip was able to pounce on it. A lucky rebound. In goes Bresden, bowls on the off-stump, pushed away. Oh, some uncertainty, this could be a runout.

Something that we worked on so much and discussed. If you're in the ring, we're not just hanging back in defence mode. It was a real tactic all the way through the World Cup that he would try to get as close and cut the angles down as much as possible. And it is a runout as Michael Lum runs in, underarms at the stump. And what a huge wicket that is, it's David Warner. There was plenty of bouncing. and pacing the pitch and City was really at the bit between his teeth.

Long way to go, in comes side bottom, it bolster hadn't, short down the leg side, Keyes better takes it, a wonderful catch, is he out? Yes, he is out. There's just a little glove around the corner and, you know, the celebration, I just remember when it goes in the gloves and everybody, you know, everybody's jumping up as it's going into the gloves and the celebration straight away, you kind of just everyone's running in and it's like you've won the World Cup but you've got a long way to go yet. Camera White, it's another six.

Into the Sobo's Pavilion, just the left of it, in fact, into some empty seats there. It was the first time that's Michael Yardi had really been taken down, which meant I had to go to Plan B, and we hadn't really done that throughout the tournament. So my Plan B was Luke Wright. So Wright's done a pretty good job. The first time he's bowling in the tournament, turns now, and is on the way to Whiteis. high swirling catch, not dissimilar to the one which was dropped a while ago, and that's magnificently held.

Wrighty came off for one over and did the job. We got the wickets. Broly managed to hold onto it, and we were back to Plan A again after that. But David Hussey and Mike Hussey, there were a couple of decent players in the back end of the innings, and they managed to get their scoring rate up, and they managed to give themselves a little bit of a hole. 147 wasn't enough on that wicket in Barbados. When you work out the numbers, 147, a runner ball, 120, you've got 27 runs.

27 runs takes you five balls. You only need to hit five boundaries, and you only need a runner ball. And in T20 cricket, a runner ball is nothing. 147 was never ever going to be a problem. We had to start well. We lost LUM early on, but I think the way that Keys wetter and Peterson played was really did calm the nerves in the dugout. They've actually gone out there and walked to walk. Then comes Johnson, bowls to Peterson.

It clears his left leg, drives him through extra cover. Out towards the boundary, it goes, screams break out on the beach. Wide of the off stump, not a good ball. And Keyesvedder just thrashed it through the gully and down to the boundary. And Peterson hits it square on the offside for four. Keyesvedder's been bowled by Johnson coming around the wicket. My thoughts when Keyeswether got out was we should have this game in the bag, but you're still as a player and as a captain, you still want to go out there and see the game to the end. So I was nervous. I was very nervous because you're really close to getting that prize.

And the closer you get to the prize, the lesser thing about the process. And I just wanted to go out there and think about how I was going to get the team over the line. And I actually had Shane Watson coming up to bowl. It was, you know, medium quick, but a guy that I thought, I really do fancy just back yourself. We've talked about all the way through the tournament that if you back yourself, you've got far more of the chance of succeeding. And I'm going to try to hit him into the stand because I had the prevailing wind with us. And I had some almighty hacks. They were dreadful shots.

But it wasn't, to me, it's not about how pretty you're being. It's about getting a job done. And thankfully, I back myself to try to take on that bowler at that time. And just when you're getting closer and closer, I think I got them away for one, six, and then an inside edge for four. And when you're getting closer and closer at the target, you're going, we've won this. And, you know, there's no better feeling than hitting the winning runs.

One to win. Collingwood on strike. In comes Watson. He bowls to him. the leg side, there it is, an England win. And the England team come dashing on to the field, led by Kevin Peterson. They're dashing after Paul Collingwood, the captain. And I'm about to say words have never been uttered before, and that is that England are the world champions of cricket. It's never happened. Words can't express the feeling of winning a World Cup and running around,

carrying on like a lunatic. It was just crazy scenes. England, the champions, the ICC World 2020-2010. And that's where the celebrations will continue, I'm sure. They'll go on long into the night, as Paul Collingwood holds the trophy aloft. It's the first time England have ever won anything like this. But now they're celebrating there a group of very happy young men, indeed, holding high the trophy as England there are world champions at 2020 cricket. To win that tournament in the Caribbean in Barbados, beating Australia.

with that team and having never ever done that before was so, so special. I mean, Aga says, and this has never been said before, England are world champions at cricket. So to be a part of that, it just brings back the most fondest of memories. When you're in it, you sometimes don't realize what you're in. And when you finish your career and you look back on some of the achievements you've had, That to me, in terms of that feeling I had inside myself, if you could bottle that up, you would be a very rich man, I tell you,

because that was just pure elation. It was just freedom, it was happiness. It was, I don't think it can get any better than that. I really don't. It's just pure heaven. That's why you play the game. It's literally the reason you play the game of cricket and why you put all the hard yards in over the years.

And to get that one feeling in your career was, like, wow, I do not want this to end at all. It was fantastic. Great stuff from Paul Collingwood. I'm well it up. Oh, no. It was a heck of an achievement, really. Cool.

And I think also it's sort of like started and kickstarted England's one day cricket, didn't it again at that stage? And we got this, because everyone was taking the Mickey a bit out of T20 then, weren't they, and just saying, oh, it's a bit of a hit and gig or whatever thing. It was still sort of very sort of undivided opinion about it. And I think it just sort of like really stamped it, you know, on our country as a format, you know.

And I thought also, you know, oh, Oz is in the final. They're going to turn us over. But I actually felt confident going into that game that we were going to turn them over. If you remember about the tactics that you use, that slowball bouncer. Yeah. with the three-fielders on the on-side boundary and no teams could

work it out. And Ryan's side, but on the left arm over. I think Yardie was playing as well. England tactically probably just out-fought the opposition. They had some quality players. Obviously Peterson was in fine form. They had the gressers at the top in Lumen Kiesveter. But you know, I thought the tactics behind

that World Cup win were the reason. You know, they didn't have a better team. They just had better tactics and delivered it on the day on a more consistent basis. And while it popularised the format, it didn't necessarily, England didn't really kick on from that with white ball cricket. And in fact, they didn't look to that model and how they played there for all forms of whiteball cricket. They were still looking red ball, weren't they, sometimes.

Yeah, well, I think if you look at the whiteboard, it had that, I can't remember what year it changed when they went to two new white balls. So you were just going to get 25 overs from either end. And England went for the tactic of going more old school at the top of the order and having more test-style openings for the 2015 World Cup and everyone else was just going out flinging it and flaying it everywhere. So England got the selection wrong and their kind of game plans wrong for 2015. But you're right. After that win so many years ago, you'd have thought that would have been the moment to really

kick on to be a dominant force in the 50-over game. But it took one more World Cup, maybe was it two? Was it another 50-over World Cup after that? Yeah, so two more World Cups were then to realize that, you know, they need to change the way they play the 50-over. a game. Very quickly, Toughers.

I've just thought of a belter for next week's quids. Vinod Cambly. Vinod Cambly. You're right. You're already, you've already made a head start.

Phil, Michael, thank you very much. Did he not buy 12 games? I've got to go. I've got to go. See ya, boys. 17 he played toughers. You can't have it.

Toughers and Vaughn's Cricket Show on 5 Live. BBC Sounds. Radio Podcasts.