Test Match Special - Urooj Mumtaz: from bowlers to molars

Episode Date: October 21, 2024

Jonathan Agnew speaks to former Pakistan captain Urooj Mumtaz.Now splitting her time between cricket commentary and dentistry, Mumtaz talks about the struggles of not being allowed to play cricket as a child, the opportunities for women in cricket now compared to when she was growing up, and how she'll be straight back to her dental practice once England's tour of Pakistan is over.

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you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and Cs apply. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Jonathan Agnew. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast from Pakistan, where I've been speaking to Arooge Mumtaz, the former Pakistan Women's Captain and Dentist, is on TV commentary duty for the series

that we caught up in the Test Special Commentary Box during the second test in Maltau. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Arooge, it's lovely to have you here. It's never been on calm waters, really, has it, Pakistani cricket? It's unfortunate, really, and it's not something to be proud of or a quality that we should celebrate. But unfortunately, it's almost become a norm in the system or the organization, and it surely doesn't help.

I mean, there's the outside noise and trying to pin Barber down for the lack of form, but it can't be easy. When you're in that dressing room, or you named selectors in terms of head of selectors, the selection committee, I think the members in the selection committee has gone beyond 25 now. So the numbers that have been churning out in terms of complete members in that selection, committee and then you've got coaches and then you've got chairmen who've got different ideas and ideologies so it can't be really easy and then stripped off captaincy and then given

it back again and then taking it back again so surely the outside noise doesn't help in spite of all of that Pakistan does manage to pull remarkable things out of the hat so imagine if we had a bit of a system in place it could have been different but would it be Pakistan though

I mean is there something that's just this is the way Pakistan cricket has always operated really with that slightly chaotic feel to it. Yeah, it is. And I think somewhere along the lines, it just inspires you more when you're inside the field

that you, in spite of those odds, stacked up against you, you want to come out and prove so many people wrong and do so much that you can, given all that limited resource in terms of, obviously, changes and all the sort of turmoil that happens off the field.

But it's not easy. You've been part of that set up. It doesn't help. And it might be the Pakistan way, but it's not the ideal way. It's far from how it should be. And how would it be for Jason Gillespie, say, coming in, Australia, coming in and is not used to the Pakistan way? I'm not quite sure what his role is on the cell.

Is he allowed to vote on that selection committee? I don't know. There's some talk that he hadn't got one anymore. But, I mean, it must be quite confusing for an Aussie to come into this setup. I mean, they call him dizzy, right? So I'm sure from the get-go he's been very dizzy in that position that he's been given. I mean, I like what him and Sean said at the start of all of this, that they always talk about consistency. see in continuity with and backing their players as in terms of selections that's where they stuck

with Abdullah Shafiq, they stuck with Syma Yub and stuck with whatever spinners or seamers they had picked so I liked what they said they were transparent in what the messaging was and obviously trying to rediscover almost rejuvenate Pakistan's way now what that is was all was a big question mark because the first test match in Bangladesh Azar Mahmoud went along the lines to say that they didn't misread the pitch but it didn't behave the way they thought so somewhere along the lines was a little bit of confusion trying to figure out what works

so in that I think but Shan and Gillespie I thought from the outset worked well said the right things obviously you needed a little bit of spark in Pakistan we had a poor run off late in all formats especially at home in the red ball but I'm not quite sure where that position is now

especially given the fact that that new selections come in, and I just feel that they've got slightly more power at the moment. And if you look at the way the game's gone so far, they'll be happy with the decisions they've made. At least it's a better viewing for test cricket, and in their opinion, spin was our strength. Yeah, and I haven't read anybody really criticising this decision. I'm certainly not anybody who commentated on the first test match anyway, because to see a completely different game, to see the ball dominating the bat for a change, it just makes an interesting game.

Yeah, I mean, and that's what you want. You want to sell test cricket. And, I mean, it is the pinnacle of the sport, and people want to watch. But you don't want to watch 500-something, play 800 and something, and the ball's not doing. So you want even competition with bat and ball. Now, if Pakistan struggled to produce seeming tracks, obviously, we don't have the pace in our surfaces. And if the grass doesn't help with lateral movement, the other thing that you go is turn it. Yes.

And that's what it's done. So if it's taken seven days for a wicket to turn, and I think they should start playing in Pindi right now. Well, I was going to say, what could we expect? Because that match doesn't start for a week. I think we send the Hoover across to Pindi, find out exactly what's happening. Because like you say, I mean, it needs to be watchable. It needs to be, when you're sifting through channels, you want to stop and watch when there's an even contest. And it keeps Pakistan in the game.

Because Pakistan producing batting surfaces is not going to win against England. So that also puts perspective. And you want to win at home, what is the advantage you're looking for? I love the way Sajid bowl, by the way. I mean, I don't know him. all, obviously, but what a character here appears to be. I mean, really, they're just cabadi celebrations and all of that. I mean, that's good

for the game, too, isn't it? They just have characters like that. Oh, fantastic. Intense. It almost feels like his eyes will pop out of the socket, so it's so intense. He's got one nerve running laterally across his bald forehead, which has been kissed, by the way. I think by a few. I'm not sure about that. Well, Leach's head has been

used for moisture, for the ball to reverse swing by Jorud. Sarj's head been used for completely other reasons. I think I've kissed by Noman, Kamran, Salman Aliaga took a fonding to it as well. But yeah, I mean, he's got so much energy, likable character. I think just his intense character just gives the impression and he is like that. He wants to impact the game.

And the energy in his action gets good revs on the ball. And he's played a lot of cricket. He's played a lot of cricket at the first class level and these conditions come very natural to him as home conditions because he's played all his red ball cricket here. the only one factor was the trio of Pakistan spinners hadn't played in over 250 odd days and that was what was important because you've gone into probably one of the darkest times in Pakistan cricket at home and in turmoil situation selection committee changes and they've put you in with no man as one of your front line spinners so it's important for them to deliver

and i felt sarges is the kind of person who's sort of very confident in his ability and he's not so much thrown off by the outside noise which was brilliant yeah it was how do you assess the state of cricket in Pakistan I mean just generally out there we drive in it's a fascinating drive from town out here it just is for us from the UK you see so many extraordinary sites and one of the sites that you see often on a bare patch

on the left and side a game's of cricket going on lots of them tapeball I assume and just enthusiastic young men mainly at that probably exclusively if I'm honest playing cricket out there in the dust there still feels to be that real love of passion for cricket. Oh, 100%. I don't think you can take that away from,

we've got such a rich history of cricket, and albeit it takes a little bit of equipment, compared to football, if I may put it, where you could probably kick around with two people. You still need personnel more, and you need a little bit of a placid, flatter surface to play cricket on. But as a Pakistani, across genders, it's almost like you use that cliche, you eat, sleep, cricket all the time,

irrespective. So back in the day, I mean, I remember watching the 92 World Cup as a 7-year-old, and I still know exactly where I sat when Jonti flew across horizontally to run in and see out. Brilliant. Where Imran Khan lifts that crystal ball trophy as we win that World Cup, because it was a household item. It was an event

that everyone was a part of, whether it's your grandmother or mothers and everybody was involved. So that passion is something which is an innate nature to Pakistan. It is the one. sport that is thriving compared in context to the rest of the sports you look at the way unfortunately hockey and squash have died out so it is one thing one sport that people really hang on to and it's generations on in and decades on in we've provided the world with superstars with role models with fascinating

characters that every other young boy or girl wants to become I think that's the true heart of Pakistan but has that changed a bit I mean not not wanting to become but the access I mean there you say you were seven I was there at Melbourne that day commentating there you go I know quite angry actually a different a different emotion as Vasim tore through England's batting very brilliantly isn't he but as a seven-year-old girl then in Karachi how easy was it for you to play cricket not at all not at all because it was almost an alien story or a request that a girl's going to play cricket I mean I was privileged enough to be a member of a private club, Karachi Jamhana,

where there used to be a boys under 10 team that used to play on Saturday mornings. Now, being an equal member at that club, I just rolled up one day, again, wanting to play cricket. And I was told by all the naughty boys there, the girls can't play cricket. What are you doing here? Could you, though? Had you been playing in your garden or something? In my backyard, yes. So I had two older.

You had a hold of back. Yeah. I think I was fair in asking for a turnout there. But I used to play with my cousins, again. both boys in the backyard or in the road in front of the house and stuff like that. So, and then my dad comes in and is like, go to the management figure out where there's no rule that says the women can't play. And it was a struggle because for the first six or months in a year, I had to fight because

the boys wouldn't talk to me because obviously somebody had to sit out because this girl had taken up a spot. So I think that push and drive to be better than most to, again, then for them to accept. And obviously end up going captaining the under 17, such. boys at Karachi Gymkhana and then now they're best of my friends and say listen we had a hand in you playing for Pakistan of course everybody wants to chip in on that but generally talking about Pakistan cricket as well we used to struggle to find grounds we used to struggle to find safe grounds which would be enclosed because then again we were an anomaly back then as why are the girls out and people didn't sort of really accept it even even main stadiums were over a bit of a issue so it's purely cultural is it i mean purely that you know the belief is very male dominated society girls should not be playing cricket yeah absolutely it's a men's game yeah and it was something that it was very unheard or unseen in pakistan so we had to find a lot

of those battles even for a lot of players that came through the ranks their parents just wouldn't give them the okay to go and play there would be the stories of girls who've had to dress like boys cut their hair hide from parents tell them they're going to school and not And the boys team that they would play in, they would play as a boy. So those are the stories. And then now it's come so far in leaps and bound that we have produced enough role models in the women's game. For then, for it to now, we've almost had to break those barriers, smash those barriers down, to break that cultural barrier primarily to go in with, be like, right, this is a sport.

It's available to the women as well. And we've got enough people who've done that and paved the path for more girls to come. but the struggle was there for sure. We've had games of cricket being closed back in the day as well where we've had been like, right, okay, that's it. Boys are here, you guys can leave. It seems crazy, really, looking back at that, doesn't it? I mean, now because things are happily different.

I mean, do you look back at that and think, wow, that was a strange time? I think almost in a proud way as well, because somebody's got to, I mean, you need to lay the groundwork and somebody's going to have to play their part. and when you look back now it's very nice because then you say well I played my part right we played our part right

when we got the opportunity most of the times we didn't back down and we played the part right so we've paved the path now for it to flourish into something which is now become a more acceptable norm it's a professional career in Pakistan and you'll find a lot

more girls and boys knowing the women's team in Pakistan and wanting to become like the next bismamarov they want to become the next Fatma Sana who's a country captain right now. So we've turned out enough role models who've been fantastic. Servants off the game. Bismamarov had a baby while she was captain and continued captaining on. And the PCBs come a long way with that as well. So you

had to give them the credit for then valuing the women's support. I think that's the crux of it, right? Financials, I can accept. But the value and the respect needs to be same as the men. So if now if Sean Massoud's a captain and Fatma Sana's the captain they need to be valued as players of the game equally and I think that was they are I think it's slowly changing I think it's slowly changing there's still a disparity obviously it's all I think it also has to do with the visibility right the number or the percentage of men's cricket that you can see on TV and the percentage of women's cricket that you can see on TV also has a part to play because if it's not something that the average viewer or the young girl or boy can see you don't

essentially churn out the same passion, the same following behind it, hence why. But I think that has to be driven by the board. If you value your own product and respect it and put it on that pedestal, everyone falls into line. Of course. I'd love to be in there when you're captain under 17. I mean, that must have been. But the whole setup, I mean, you must have to have changed in different changing rooms or whatever. But the whole thing of a young woman leading out an under 17 boys team as captain,

I mean, there must have been a bit going on behind the scenes, wasn't there, to make that happen, to make that work, to be accepted by those other players? Yeah, it took a long time, I mean, over about six, eight years of every Saturday, being out there, the Wednesday Nets, I remember. And I was a fielding freak. So I didn't mind for the first couple of years, just fielding for, we used to have 25 over games.

So I didn't mind for the first couple of years to just field, because I used to love it. I used to love diving around, throwing around. Where did you feel? Covered? Backward point. Slips, if required. I mean, self-proclaimed, decent fielder.

So I used to love that. So I didn't really mind it. So for them, they thought they were sort of punishing me by not giving me bowling or batting. I didn't mind it. And I used to love to feel. So I think from there, slowly, then rolled my arm over as a leg spitter, then slotted in at 8, went up and then got my spot at 4 where I bared for Pakistan as well for a long period of time. and similarly there.

So I think, again, the quality of cricket was the one that had to put me in that position where they said, right, she's one of us, she can play rather than anything else. And I think that's what probably helped me along in my career. So when I came out to captain that 17 sides, they were my friends then. But that's a massive breakthrough, isn't it? Yeah. You must have felt just totally elated by that. I know, again, it sounds ridiculous in the modern time that you should be accepted by a boy's team.

But given, you know, that that's where we're going back to, that must have been an extraordinary feeling of, yeah, satisfaction, actually, more than that. Yeah, I think, I mean, now looking back, like you said, I think put into perspective the time that we were back in, it just, it's a bit of a sense of relief as well, that all that hard work is paid off. Yes. But, and then you enjoy it because then, A, they start accepting you as one of their own,

and a deserved member of the side, let alone a girl leading an 117 boys team out. And the fact that you're actually good enough, of all that sort of hard resistance by those boys. So it helped me in both ways, actually. Because I think towards the end also, I was more than happy to again feel, and every time they had to sort of switch field. It's interesting.

They called the girl up to go field at backward point, and I didn't mind that. So that really helped, and I enjoyed it. So I didn't mind it at all. Do you ever see any of them still? I mean, those lads that you played with, they'll see them around. Oh, yeah, absolutely. because that club is still, I've still members at it,

and I've got a nine-year-old when we go there every time, because we've got multi-sports and stuff. Girl, nine-year-old girl, does not like cricket. Oh, no. I'm sorry, because there's still time. Well, yeah, because commentary keeps Mama away from her, so that's where it's coming. I understand that, yeah, but she does like Fatmasana

as the Pakistan women's team's captains. But, yeah, so because of that, we still go back to the club. So all those friends of mine, very good friends, and they don't shy away from seeing right, see, we help you out. Had we not been hard on you, you would have never played for Pakistan. Oh, well, that's fair play.

I can see that. So yeah, it's been good. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Fascinating conversation about, well, the involvement of women's cricket here in Pakistan. And from that, of course, well, he went on to captain Pakistan. So were you professionals then, Arush, Or was that still to come in when you were captain of Pakistan women? So, 2004 January, I started my dental school, first year at dental school,

2004 Jan and 2004 March I made my debut for Pakistan. So it was bang on parallel the four years of dental school. How did you work? Those things together then. My kid bag had dental books in it all the time. So every time we used to be on days off or in between sessions, I used to study. because there was no concept of again this is going back in the day when again it was like even my professors in school or college was like yeah so you play cricket no I play cricket for Pakistan yeah I mean but still you still got to come to school got attend college classes dental school classes and nobody was cutting you any slack so cricket is his passion should absolutely love it still do crazy about it but I knew the dentistry had to go hand in hand because because no Nobody's cutting you some slack. It doesn't make it easy when your parents are dentists.

So they said a very, very high scene. That answers that question. I wondered why you got into that. Okay, so a house full of dentists. Well, yeah. So that doesn't help because everybody knows the parents because the fraternity is small. And they're like, well, I said, I'm not born with a chip inside me with dental books stored. And so I had to study because every time I went back, it was almost a case of, well, it doesn't matter if you were away.

you still have to be abreast and on top of your studies. So you were touring and you'd actually go away for periods of time and then catch up. Yeah, so there's, again, I always mention him, his name, Dr. Barker Ruscari. He was the principal of our dental school and it happened. Second year I was in dental school, the final exams coincided exactly with the Asia Cup in 2005. And I went to him and said, listen, I mean, this is what's happened. He's like, come back with your parents the next day. go back with my parents and he says if you don't let her play for Pakistan I won't let her sit for the exam

and that I don't think I would have I could not have imagined in my wildest dreams that I would get that support and I think it's worth him it is absolutely amazing and I owe my career to him in a way because had he said otherwise it might have been a decision that I would have had to take because it was still a very very amateur sport back then Yes, absolutely. So what a juggling act, though, all the way through? It was difficult. I mean, it's difficult to put into words of how I managed. But again, I, again, knew that if I fall behind on either or,

one chapter will have to close or give way. And I wasn't willing to. It did help if you put into context now. The amount of cricket we played back then probably allowed me a little bit more time to juggle it slightly better. Again, nothing comes easy. but it's a very weird combination. It's extraordinary.

I said to Andy, I can't think of any. Apart from John the dentist Maynard, who's knock people's teeth out for the West Indies's fast photo, I can't think of any. Are there any other dentists who play professional cricket? I can't think of it. Not really. I mean, at one point, the president of our country was a dentist,

RFLWI, and the Prime Minister, Imran Khan, was a former captain. Happened to be a combination. You could combine the two. Yeah, so what was it like playing for Pakistan in those early days? And again, going back to that whole question of acceptance, I mean, would people come and watch? Would men come and watch you playing,

the Pakistan national team playing? For a long time. For a long time, nobody knew there was any women's cricket on. For a long time, nobody knew that. So my debut was March 2004. West Indies came here for one test and seven one-day internationals. That test was my debut. I think maybe we had a handful of people at the National Stadium in Karachi.

Because nobody knew the games were on. And this has been a constant feature up until the recent parts. You played in the actual main ground. Actually, national stadium. And it was empty. With a capacity of over about 30 or000. Absolutely empty. It must have been quite weird.

It was absolutely empty. I mean, I witnessed Kieran Boloch make a magnificent 242. And 400 plus run partnership with Sajda Shah to open one of the best players. At least Pakistan's produced with the bat in that Kieran Belouj. I was batted to go in at four. Batten on the – sat on the Karachi – National Stadium balcony with my pads on, helmets on, just watching the action,

trying to make sure I know what the ball's doing, watching Kirin Boloch make it look so damn easy. And Sajda gets out. Number three goes and nicks off the first ball. I go and nick off the first ball. That's it. Test match done. No, you're joking.

First baller. So yeah. This thing's happened. Well, it happens. But picked up a couple of catches, a few wickets. So not that bad. But yeah. What right now?

I mean, when you look at, we've been watching the World T20, obviously in Dubai the World Cup they get a bit grumpy the way England got knocked out of course Pakistan didn't have a great run either actually did they to be fair but how do you see that progression I mean

the advance certainly in the UK in terms of accessibility numbers playing exposure 100 tournament television and all that has I think made a massive difference to women's cricket in the UK

what's it like here there's no women's PSL here is there There was an exhibition of two teams a couple of years ago, which was actually played, they played three matches together. Lauren Wilfield Hill was here, Tammy Beaumont was here, Maya Bouchier was here, and a few others were here, and they sort of put in the top Pakistan 15 and sort of made two balanced side and played that. But that never followed through.

There was meant to be a women's PSL that followed. And I really feel at the top level, the franchise cricket, like you mentioned, 100 in England, the women's big bash up in Australia. Australia has really aided to bridge that gap between probably the slightly lesser of the sides of following that top four or top three that you may call bridge that gap. The likes of Chamaria Tapatap, Marizan Kapp, Lizelli, Danny Vanekirk, so many players. But I think it's important because at franchise cricket, it's still a business model. So they're looking for which player works for them.

That's where I feel Pakistan has just let themselves a little bit down. We had Nidadar, I think it was 20-21 play a few games in the women's Big Bash in Australia. But our players really haven't. And again, you mentioned the T20 World Cup. We just haven't put in the performances at the world stage. But that sinks in because of the fact that we don't have a domestic structure of quality. We don't have grassroots cricket. We don't have age group cricket.

We do have an A-team tour every now and then. Hence why you see the same 20-odd group that's been playing for a long. time because there isn't a system or a pipeline in place which connects those dots. So that's where Pakistan cricket need to evolve and improve if we are to sort of stay a relevant or a competitive side at the top level. That needs to be done. I mean, would the establishment of a PSL be like the crowning glory in a way of what you started off all those years ago?

Do you actually establish something that is a fully constructed tournament on the telly for women to play? Would that kind of be the icing on the cake as far as you're concerned? I think that's the need of the hour as well. I think it does a couple of things. It obviously puts you on the map in terms of franchise cricket. So you draw a lot of international players in, which obviously find it as another opportunity, which then helps your players share dressing rooms, pick up on best global practices, what the other players are doing in terms of fitness regimes, dietary regime, so much that you can learn and share as well. Plus, when you've got

so much wealth and experience and show in terms of superstars, you inspire a whole different generation as well. And then for that, you need to then have a system in place, because where do you find the players to field three or four teams in the women's PSL? That's got to come first really, isn't it? You've got to get a system. So, well, I mean, either or at this stage will help. And I thought that those exhibition matches were a start of it. But in all honesty, you're absolutely right. There needs to be a system that is consistent, reliable, and then effective, and then churns out. The number of girls who want to play cricket in Pakistan is unbelievable.

Unbelievable. You'll find, I get phone calls every now and there, like, my daughter's 8, my daughter's 12, she's 6, she's 16, where can she go and play? And I find it difficult to tell them to where to go and play. And that needs to change. And it needs to change at school and college level? To play at school? So that's the biggest problem, right?

So the sports of girls normally would play at school would be table tennis, badminton, throwball. It also has to do with the fact that sometimes there's not acreage of land to field in football or cricket. But there's just this natural divide where the boys will go play cricket in football. And I think that needs to change. That needs to change at a school. College level, the club cricket system needs to pick up. I think the corporate sector can do a whole range in this in terms of how it happens. and obviously the Pakistan cricket board as well.

It's doing its share, but there's a lot more that can be done. It's just so frustrating for those young kids. You see the boys going off and playing a sport. They want to go and play, and they're told them to play ping pong. It's true. Really frustrating. It's true. I mean, in my story myself and so many others,

we had to sort of fight our way into where you're not naturally accepted, or it's something that you have to fight for. It's not just there for you. to rock up and just roll your arm over and play cricket. It's becoming a lot better, a lot better. There's a lot of clubs which will have separate women's timings, which will have teams. There's a lot of girls in Karachi who at least play each other once or twice a week.

So it is picking up, but I just feel the rungs of the ladder need to be brought in together. And having you and Zunab on the telly must help. I mean, I'm looking at her now. She's presenting. Here you're doing a commentary. Again, that must be, that's a massive breakthrough moment too, isn't it, to have you two on the local television? Yeah, I think, I mean, you need to put Zen up.

I call her Z, the Queen. You need to put her right up there. I think she's... She pops up on adverts too. I've seen her popping up around the ground on various massive adverts. She's the face of Pakistan cricket in terms of that revolution or sort of that breakthrough for women. Obviously, a journalist by profession. She picked up, did her hard yards in TV channels prior to that.

And she truly has become the face, at least, of the PSL in Pakistan. He's inspired so many. And that's where it is. When you sort of walk around just here, just the crowd chanting your name is a reflection of that, that something has changed. Something has changed for the average cricket follower

to, obviously, you know, the likes of Vasim and Vakar and so on and so forth, but also recognize on face by just physical appearance that, right, that's Zenababas. Or, Roach, can you sign something for us? Or they'll wave out to Bisma Maruf and they'll know who Fatma Sanai is. And I think that genuinely

makes me happy and brings a smile to my face because you just feel with that responsibility you've also broken the door down and opened that window for so much more to come and then those young boys and girls who might have been dreaming probably now think what I can do it as well yeah we've been breaking those doors down all the way haven't you was it was it difficult starting off on the on the telly I mean again was there a bit of an anti-an-feeling to having women broadcasting on the telly here I did not feel sort of a sort of negative attitude or an environment where I felt like I was, wasn't welcome. But it was always difficult because, A, I just feel because, again, you're the odd one out.

Pakistan cricket hadn't had a voice on men's cricket in terms of commentary. So you just feel there's all this nervous energy. And then when you're commenting on, say, with the likes of NAS or Rath or Rameez or Danny who's got his own energy. and these are the few people I started off with. Again, you don't want to make a mistake. You want to be saying the right things. I felt earlier on there was hardly any room for error because you were a female. So why they couldn't make a mistake.

People say they were told you so. There you go. That's why. But I think just A, because you've played the sport, so you're fairly confident in your cricketing understanding of the game. But then it's not easy because broadcasting, like obviously you would know is a completely different field. And it's not a given.

You're not entitled just because you were the former captain or the cricketer. It's a whole different profession and you've got to start somewhere and you've got to know which button does what. It's not just about right, go on, say whatever you want. That's what I was told, by the way. Very earlier on, well, as I went up to one of my senior colleagues and said, right, how does this work? And he's like, well, say whatever you feel like. I'm like, surely that can't be it. he meant it in a very nice way of course

but I can imagine that you probably would say what you feel though you are very confident and you have put in those well those hard yards of getting women's cricket to where it is though I suspect you probably do say what you feel

yeah I think a little battle hardened as well and that's just the person that I am I verbose my way through that's a new word that we've invented you've been running that past me I know I'd like that it's yes it's a quality

I'd like to say we're bossing so that that's me so i don't i don't necessarily hold back also i was told earlier on like why you got to read the game as a neutral and you got to say it as it is so yes you mildly try and sugarcoat stuff and don't become over in a certain aspect of it but um i think it's important because you do your homework and you come in and then you try and make a space and a little bit of your own uh in terms of a name and then try and hold you your own. So, I mean, there's been plenty of support and encouragement and I keep asking fellow colleagues as to write critique and feedback and what to do better and whatnot. So it's always

a learning curve. I've got a quick one for you that I don't think you'd have been asked this before. Do dentists when they've had a bit of time. I'm, I'm a bad patient. I'm an anxious patient. I don't like going to the dentist. Do dentists like you when you've had a bit of time away? Do you have to go in the nets before you? Before you have somebody sitting there with his or her mouth open, waiting for that needle to go in, or do you just go straight in as if you've been doing it, you know, do you go and have a bit of practice first or not?

Right, Dr. Roach is the fourth tooth on the left, not the right. The patient's right could be very different to your left. But yeah, nah, I mean... You'll be straight back after the series, you're back into it again? Yeah, yeah. The day I get back, dad and mom do not cut me any slack, so I need to be back at pulling teeth, him and shit there, after this one. Well, thanks to Arooge for joining us, and that's it for this episode of the

Test Match Special Podcast. Make sure you subscribe. If you haven't already, you'll get a notification every time as a new episode, whether that's from us here in Pakistan or Henry Moran and the team in the UAE for the Women's T20 World Cup. Make sure to check out Stumped as well. Alison Mitchell speaks to the Scotland leg spinner Abduha Maksud on her first experience of a women's T20 World Cup. Hello, I'm Greg James. He's Felix White. And that is England's greatest ever bowler, Jimmy Anderson. Hello, Felix, what can people expect to hear on tailenders?

A loosely cricket-based chat, and we've probed Jimmy about not meeting done on armour. Jimmy, what's your favourite thing about tailenders? I like hanging out with you guys and listen to you talk about cricket and then putting you right when you get everything. Thanks for your support as ever. We also have some very special guests every now and then. Stuart Broad, so they're running into bowl, and I'm going to go, oh, it's interesting the skippers bowling the top end and you're bowling this thing

because, you know, you're going to get dropped, aren't you? I love it. That's Tell Enders. Listen now on BBC Sounds. Go well.