Test Match Special - View from the Boundary - Ben Willbond

Episode Date: August 31, 2024

Jonathan Agnew speaks to actor and screenwriter Ben Willbond.Known for his role in the BBC sitcom Ghosts, Ben discusses the success of the series, as well as his work on Horrible Histories and Ben having a visit from Geoffrey Boycott while he was at school.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. You're listening to the TMS Podcasts. from BBC Radio 5 Live. An actor, screenwriter, you'll probably certainly recognise this,

the captain in the hugely successful BBC sitcom Ghosts, which came to an end with a big ratings climax at Christmas. He's a key part of the award-winning horrible histories on CBBC, where recurring characters range from Henry VIII to Alexander the Great. He's appeared another hit comedy programmes like Thick of It, Extras, Good Oman's, and Rev, and his writing credits include the film Bill about the life

of William Shakespeare I'm told on his mantlepiece he has a peri award two pointless trophies I've only got one how'd you get two points well done and a Lord's Tavoured as a cricket tournament shield big cricket fan plays the Thespian thunderers

Actors 11 very warm welcome to Ben Wilbon lovely to have you here It's an absolute pleasure and an honour to be An honour But it is it's a lovely It's quite special isn't it

It's very special walking in here to the media centre I didn't quite realise how stunning the view is you're almost sort of hovering above the strip and it's just fantastic and glue to it

and normally we do have our window open so you just you do get that sense of the crowd noise coming in which is oh it is quite fitting there is a military band this is fitting the captain would approve wouldn't he well absolutely I don't know which band it is

but there's some euphoniums down there I recognise, which is obviously, if they're one short, I could go to the car and get mine out. But not sure that could be very popular either, actually. It's the band and bugles of the rifles. Thank you, indeed, Adam. They're marching. Look at that. They look very splendid. No, they do.

Black uniforms, black tunics. I don't know what you call the items on their hats, but they're like red. Someone will write in. Yes. They will. That's fantastic. So, I mean, do you come here often? Do you, are you a lot?

I don't usually start my interviews like that. Well, I do as much as I can over the summer. It is, I mean, it is just such a stunning ground to come to. And the atmosphere is always electric. I've not yet been, I was telling you before we started, I've not yet been for an Asher's match. I would dearly love to be, because all those wonderful moments from Ashes

gone by and you're saying oh God I wish I was there for that Yes Because somehow I mean all test matches matter Of course But somehow there is that There is that edge for an Ashes game

And last year here But it all kicked off with Johnny Berto Of course And all the booing And the shenanigans I know It was all got a bit beyond What we're used to

In cricket But you brought one of your sons With you Yes I got one of my son Right And he's that My I have two sons One 12 and one

10. My 10 year old is here looking a little bit sheepish in the corner. They both played, do they? They both play. And look, I'm not going to say, I didn't force the issue. We started very gently, but I was determined to introduce them to the game early. My love of the game started, went about 9, 10 at school. And it is quite a hard game to get into, I think, for juniors. thing for juniors and um you've got to be quite subtle and slow with it because you know

for them age I don't know seven eight they're going well what what happens now yes no you've got you've got to you've got to be really sort of um gentle introducing them to the game but they're both and so so playing with kind of soft balls to start with softball to start with and um so I so we moved up to um north London just before lockdown and One of the many reasons we moved was because I'd noticed in near Crouch End, there was this, it sounds very grand, doesn't it? But there was this fabulous collection of cricket pictures. Driving past going, hello, what's this?

Having a nosey in. And it's called Shepard's Cott. And there's about six or seven cricket grounds. I thought, okay, that's a done deal. We'll be moving here. It's the most beautiful space. I think it's all protected land, so no one can build on it. There's a fabulous view of Alexandra Palace in the background.

Oh, right, okay. So on a beautiful summer's evening, you've suddenly got these lovely strips and this beautiful view. So one of those places where the games kind of merge into one another, so actually you're fielding there, but actually... Yeah, well, there's... You're point in that game, but you actually... Yeah, yeah. ...tend to be chucking balls back to...

North London and North Middlesex. But both boys play for Crouchon Cricket Club. And it's a fabulous, fabulous little community. They invest very, very heavily in the youth game. And families are really welcome. So there's no sort of pressure. And it's just delightful to go down there. And I've actually now, tentatively at first, thinking, well, maybe I could help out.

I'm not quite sure what a light comic actor could do here. And then sort of got roped into a little bit of, I'd say, coaching in a very, very loose term. Yeah, yeah, but that's really good. You know, the Friday evening coaching sessions with all the juniors, sort of eight, nine, ten-year-olds. And yes, it is like herding cats. I bet it is. And especially the eight-year-olds. Yeah.

Do I have to do it tonight, or can I just go to the bar? But they are, they're fabulous. And as they, and it's lovely to watch them develop from eight, nine. And then as they get sort of 10 and 11, those who are interested in the game, it's just beautiful to watch. Because they suddenly, it sort of clicks in and they go, oh, I get it. Yes. I can start with kind of enthusiasm, is it, from your perspective?

Yeah, you've got to just, you've got to, but I tell you what, the, the, uh, we have to play the games, obviously, uh, sometimes, uh, in midsummer later in the evening. And of course, if you're an eight or nine year old boy, you're, uh, a little bit, a little bit, um, shall we say, unfocused at that time of the evening. Yes. If the match drags on, they sort of, there's a few people's lying by the boundary, sort of wandering off into the trees. yeah so it but it's um yeah like i say it's it's lovely to uh to see them develop and get interesting yeah and start to sort of i guess the only way to describe it i mean you know this you've played you've played for england but it's you get that sort of um once you're hooked

you're hooked you're kind of go oh we get it it's the greatest game it is the greatest game yeah i will go on record well i'm just on it um yeah i'll go on record and say Do you think that there's been an uptick and enthusiasm and interest from your son's age and so on as a result of the short form game, do you think? Are they watching that? They've got access to that? That's an interesting question. I think they have.

We were glued to the 100 this summer. It is fantastic for getting kids involved. We came down to watch London Spirit. But actually one of our members at Crouch End is the coach, or one of the coaches for the women's London Spirit team. She was here, Emma Whiteman. And so she brings that sort of expertise back, which is tremendous. And I found out of a fan at you myself a couple of times,

umpiring some of the under 10 games with her and sort of looking quite nervously from square leg, Just going, is that, do we, are we, are we doing, oh, we, okay, yeah, that is out. That is definitely out. Yeah. So, yes, so to answer your question, I think the short form is, is really good at helping, helping children develop an interest. And then, but there's something, there's something so captivating about test. And I, and I, you know, I just, I sort of hope that both my boys get in, get into it because, um, have you, have you started to gently? Yeah, the gateway drug is the, uh, It's a shorter form.

And then, you know, you think that will open the gate. I think so. I think so, because the way England are playing now, the way it's sort of, because I grew up watching it in the 80s. So, you know, I would, you know, draw the curtains and watch. In both of them and Dougher and Bob Willis and, yeah. And, you know, just watch them. And that's how I played.

So that's how I played at school as a 10-year-old, just dig in. But, of course, we were playing a shorter, you know, we didn't have the time to play a long game. So I just sort of dig in. Who were you? I opened. And because I think I could see off the pace attack from Trent College and Uppingham, which you will know. Yes, of course, because you were at Stanford school, wasn't you? Which is a beautiful cricket field.

It is a beautiful. It's a stunning place. And, yes, I got into the game and I kept wicked as well, which I loved. And I think that's how I Charmed my way into the Thunderers It's a sort of trial game Not really a trial game, but my first game Before I got my official cap for the Thunderers

I caught a very, very low edge At first slip Almost just just off the deck In my two fingers and thought, yeah, I've still got it Yes This was about 15 years ago But I've always loved fielding at slip fielding, being a wicket keeper.

But I was sort of usurped at school, a very young age, and I sort of went off in a funk, and then my school career sort of ended. So that was quite disappointing. And then I, in my late 20s, early 30s, I thought, right, I'm going to get back into the game. Because why on earth did I not keep playing? Through all those years as well, but you could be, yeah, your fittest.

Exactly. Well, you say fittest, I mean, I was, lurching around the comedy circuit oh well but how did it start you said I mean I was the same as you I used to sit at home draw the curtains

black and white tally in my day perhaps you might be one of the colour by the time you were waiting for black and white telly and just sit and watch a test match I mean it was a bizarre childhood really but you just sort of got gripped by it and the great thing about I think we're very lucky

was that you could actually see your heroes couldn't you? You actually Bob Willis or Peter Lever in my case railing earth, all these people you could see them on the telly and so you could then go out and you could copy them afterwards. It must be a bit of difficult now. If you haven't got access to satellite tell you and that, it must be quite

difficult. I mean, does he have heroes? You've probably got a sky, have you? Yeah, we do. We do so I can... It does make a difference. It does make a huge difference. I mean, actually both boys do complains. I do just sit there glued. Waiting for the highlights. Just right. Everyone, we're watching the highlights.

There's no other option here in the living room. Yeah, I think it is, I think it's hard. It's a hard game to get, to get people into, it's a hard bit, but, you know, particularly older people, my generation, and they go, why on earth are you obsessed with cricket?

And you go, okay. And it makes me think that, you know, instead of national service, perhaps, perhaps, everyone should be made, you know, between the age of 18 and 21, to just start to the middle and face, you know, you can pad up. You can just be in a massive, great big padded suit. Right.

Just face and over from a brick or something and just... Yeah, pretty terrifying. Really terrifying. You'd come away going, okay, you're right. It is a pretty interesting game, actually. I can see how... And it'd be lovely if there's a shorthand way to say, look, watching Test match is like watching...

You know, anything can happen at any point. Yeah. to it, this ebb and flow, this Sri Lanka test has proven that, you know, two or three times, you think, oh, well, it's all over now, and then suddenly Sri Lanka dig in. Yes, they do. And it's just, it's beautiful. You just think, oh, great, well, it's game on. Yeah.

It's that old corny ebb and flow cliche, but it is, it is true. You know, we were talking about Root earlier about how, and I think you said, you chatted to him, and he's sort of now in that beautiful sort of flow state where he can come out. I don't know without thinking about it. I mean, does that. I don't need to think about it. I just can't relate to that. Well, I've heard, it's been a long time since I've done anything on the stage,

but I do remember in long runs in shows that I'd written on stage, you get to this sort of point where you think, there is nothing I can do now that's going to upset me or upset my concentration. It's just like that sense of, I think, I've got this. Rhythm. Doesn't matter what, anyone heckles or whatever happens, it'll be fine. Yeah, yeah. It's a lovely place to be.

Joe's there at the moment. I mean, you might see him. Beat Alastair Cook today. Yeah. Which have a bit tinged up here because obviously we love Alastair as a colleague of ours. He looked a little bit cheap. Well, he's accepted that it's going to go. It is going to go sometime.

It is going to go. Yeah, yeah. But he's played brilliantly. So how did it actually begin for you? How did you get into cricket in the very first place? So it was at school, because we, at Stamford, you played... So were you there at junior school as well? Junior school as well, yeah.

Right, okay. So you played rugby, that was a shock to the system, aged barely nine. Yes. We're doing what? But have you felt the temperature outside of it? The left wing, I think, was quite a popular place to go and hide in my schoolboy days of playing rugby. Just being shouted at by a fabulous PE teacher called Mike Barton, He had this straightest military moustache.

And my memories from being known is just being shouted at. The rain coming off the fens was horizontal. And you just hear Mr. Bolton shouting, Hot potato! Trying to get past the ball. Oh, I see. And then, of course, spring comes,

you play a bit of hockey, and then summer it's, you know, suddenly the pitch is unveiled. And it's like, ooh, so it's interesting. And then, yeah, like I say, I learned how to bat a little bit, although the thunderers might have something to say about that. And loved keeping wicked.

Didn't Geoffrey boycott come on? I was reading somewhere. He did. All right. And actually, I was actually in the scorebox for that match. Operating it. Operating the scorebox. So what they said is, listen, everyone can watch boycott play.

So why was he there? I don't know. I was only, I must have been about 10 or 11. Right. You know, that, that intelligence didn't filter. No, there's an exhibition game or something, was it? It must have been. I think it's an old boys or, I don't know.

Anyway, so he was there strides out to the middle. We were very excited in the scorebox and just going, wow, you know, could be 100 here today. Yeah. I think he was out at LBW third ball. Excellent. And then refused to walk. Well, for LBW? so the umpire his finger goes up and jeffrey just stood there right no

is that right not walking and then everyone was like actually but actually probably yeah no it's fine actually just let him play on to be honest no ball so something oh dear so he got some eventually yeah he did he did but again i mean we were side on the scoreboard's side on yeah and i just remember saying him just you know five out of six balls, he'd just... Yeah, but if you were a grafter, then that's the role model, isn't it? And that was my role model, so... Yeah.

I would just graft, grind out, sort of 10 or 11 runs. Yeah. I wonder if that was something to do with MJK Smith, because he was a Stanford boy, wasn't he? Mike Smith. I wonder if there's some sort of benefit game for him. I'm trying to think, I know Jeff Boycott would go to Stanford. I'm sure we could look it up in the records.

Yeah. Someone will write in. So I'm about the thunderers. Come on, because that sounds like... It sounds like really good fun. The Thunderers is terrific fun. We, I mean, I don't play so much for them now because weekends are precious with the boys. Yeah.

You know, it's, it is very, very hard to find the time. They know that. And I think, you know, this season and last season, struggling a little bit with numbers. But when we do make up the 11, the matches are just terrific. And they came down, they came to our, to play Highgate's cricket. club I think and it was nearby so I managed to get there get permission to have a game and yeah it's just it's terrific and um who plays what's what sort of so it's it's a it's a sunday side but everyone who plays we all treat it as if we're at lords right okay it's very very yeah not

not serious in that sort of you know no one's going to you know lose their rag or um although there are a couple of funny stories I could tell you but I'd probably tell you after no you must no you don't know but you know we have a

you know if someone comes to play you know we give them a cap and it's sort of gather around and you travel presumably you're a nomad of you're a nomad yeah exactly just travelling around and yeah it's terrific and there was a

some of the other guys so Pete Sanders Clark are captain he has organised a tour up north which I haven't been on which I'd love to go near his you know near his neck of the woods right family live and um that's that that's just terrific as well but it's um it's it's just joyous but my knees my knees are going to hurt a little bit if you're keeping what you're keeping looking no my goodness no although I have I did play I did um step up Pete actually uh is our is our

uh wicket keeper but I stepped up he can play a game this was an actor's author's game right actors play once a year. They've taken quite seriously, isn't it? Taken quite seriously. There's a sort of old rivalry. There's some history to that. Oh, is there? Yeah, there's some...

EG Woodhouse and all sorts of people who play, I think. Yeah, yeah. Deep history. So it's always, it's always game on. Again, I couldn't play this here. I was working, sadly, but the last couple of years, we've played down at Arundall, which is an absolute treat.

Yeah, beautiful. Because you get, you know, proper umpires, you get the scorebox, you get the tannoy. A great place to play. Number six. And it's terrific. And then you get out for three. and it's a long walk.

Yeah, well that's true. But yeah, it is it's a lot of fun. So yeah, this one time I did keep wicket and this chap I'd not seen before Damien Lewis was our captain that year. He plays a lot, doesn't he?

He plays when he can. He plays when he can. And he's very, very good as he'd expect. Is he good? Yeah, he's very good. He's an excellent batsman. Right. And he said a lot to him and went,

who's this new fella? Hello. He looks rather interesting. This very sort of tall, handsome chap sort of comes across and introduces himself. And it says, look, I've been living in New York for a while. But I used to play for Oxford. Oh, right. Okay, excellent. He goes, yeah, I sort of bold, nearly got my blue, didn't quite get my blue, bold pace, but not fast enough. And that's the thing. If you're not fast enough, you just don't make the scene.

I'm like, that's a shame. so how far back should I pretending? He went honestly it's it's pretty pedestrian I wouldn't worry about it honestly

the first ball the pain because it slapped into these gloves which I hadn't worn for so many years I just it sort of the pain sort of went all the way

out my arm down to my toes all my stars just going oh my God thinking right the honour of the team now rests

because if any of these fly past and you just miss them that's just going to be awful it's a less alone a catch opportunity oh yeah it's a tough i've only ever kept wicket once there was some game at school and i dropped a catch and never did it again but it's a it's a difficult job again you see replays and little deflections and things and they make it look they make it look so easy but can you imagine you know standing standing back there as far as they do stand at thinking yeah it's gonna it's gonna come at a fair old pace you know up to 90 miles an hour yeah earth

I might have to go and ask them. I do. Back in the old days, who's put steaks in there, didn't they? Raw meat. Well, my hands looked like afterwards, I took the gloves off. And they'd swollen up,

and I had to, it's sort of clutching a cold pint. Yeah, that was good match, wasn't it? A great, I won't be, I won't be keeping wicked again. I really enjoyed that. I think it would have been fine. Had it been, you know,

well, even the thunderers match, some of the chaps still bowl at pace, some of the younger ones. Oh, good. But when you see this, I'd say these wicket-keepers. So 80s, that would have been,

who would have been there in the 80s? And you'd have had a bit of Bob Taylor, I guess, would you? A bit of Paul Downton who would have been keeping in the 80s? Would you have any particular one that you looked at and thought, Alan Knott? He was 80s, wasn't I spent early 80s? And Knott and Taylor, they were the... Yeah, I mean, it's sort of, you feel a bit more indestructible at that age.

Yes. You know, you're sort of knight-turning, yeah, I'm going to... And it's interesting looking at the... the youth teams that my boys are in now and you look at them and you see some of the faster bowlers because of course you know at 12 13 they're getting big you know their shoulders are getting big and they're running in at a pace and the batting hasn't quite caught up right that's interesting so um the reflex is there but they're not getting that sort of constant coaching right

and and the ball's coming down really super fast yeah to what they're compared to of of course to what they used to certainly from the last sort of year so you get this kind of disparity in the match but I think

yeah eventually they catch up don't they but and they learn how to get the head over the ball please get your head over the ball the TMS podcast

from BBC Radio 5 Live the Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge perfect for the ultimate defender the high-performance defender octa 626 horsepower twin turbo v8 engine and intelligent 6d dynamics air suspension learn more at landrover.ca so come on ghosts i'm i'm a bit of a ghost virgin but i've had such a funny morning today sitting and watching that that's exactly yeah it's well you've got a whole box set to i have and i'm really really looking forward to it what a concept i

I mean, you have there created a sitcom in which you have just a completely blank sheet of paper with all these characters going back all the way back to cavemen to create backstories and humorous backstories. And what a range you have. We sort of, when we pitch the show to the BBC, we pitch them a whole raft of things saying, it'd be nice to get the team back together, wouldn't it, guys? You know, come on.

And, you know, a haunted house isn't an original, desperately original idea, but I think we, we took it on and said, actually, you know what, if we were from, obviously, obviously we're going to be different periods of history, but that gives us, and as soon as we, as soon as that idea landed, it was like, oh, actually, hang on, now, everyone's going to have a very, very different opinion. and everyone's going to have different lives and different views on society. We sort of deliberately at the beginning, you know, had them in this house with this very, very old lady and not many people have visited. So they'd sort of got used to things just being a little bit quiet. And, you know, the world hadn't quite come to visit them. And suddenly. The world changes.

And they're confronted with it. But what you're trying to do in a sitcom is to trap. people in a scenario, in a place and keep them there so that you repeat the comedy because of course you're asking people to come back and enjoy

those people being trapped together. You think, well, what better place than a house full of ghosts? They can't go anywhere they wanted to. Do the ghosts life change at all? I mean, does the caveman suddenly embrace some modern ideas,

I mean, is he absolutely stuck? Yeah, I mean, he's been around the longest. Yes. I mean, something I, like, we sort of gave ourselves very strict writing parameters to say, you know, the stories can't develop too much. We can see their backstories and they can learn a little bit, but they have to reset. They have to be who they are for us to enjoy them.

The minute you start to change radically as a character, you, the whole story changes, the whole framework breaks down. happens time and time again sitcom because you can't you're sort of itching to sort of develop it develop the story but actually you've got to arrest everything and keep them locked in and so the

the challenge was to find stories about people who are just really bored with each other and and it was the little petty rival rivalries the little those are the most fun things

to write so you know when Julian and Pat had a sort of north-south debate you'll come to that episode that was fabulous to write because it was Julian the

politician who spent all his life in Westminster yes you know arguing against Pat who was vehemently behind everything Huddersfield and oh mate much better up north

etc and you just you go oh great So we've got this lovely argument that's going to get resolved but at the end of it they don't change as such. Your role's interesting, isn't it? Because you're the captain

who, just reading around because I haven't got... But it is gay or there's a suggestion that he's gay thing, isn't it? But he is, and you are living at a time when that was actually illegal. Well, that was the...

You know what? That was just a little side note for the character thinking that makes his the characterisation really interesting. You've got a deep-seated denial and a societal denial

and suddenly this man in uniform who was the CEO of this house and has to perform as such at a time when unbelievably that was illegal. Yes. And so it was really just a side note to sort of make that character more interesting.

But of course, then you realize there's, you've got to be careful because you can't sort of rely on that storyline. But the more we storyline it, the more the character developed, you realize that that's right at the heart of him. And it makes them very, very human. And that's the trick you're trying to pull

with all the characters in a sitcom is you're trying to make them sympathetic to the audience. You need to believe that these characters could exist. Yes. If they're too cartoony, it gets very wearing very quickly. So if you watch, by comparison, an American sitcom that's very fast and cartoony, it's really, really entertaining. But it's like having a very, very sweet drink.

You go, oh, that's delicious the first bit. And then you go, actually, you know what, that's a bit too sweet for me, I can't. The trick is to sort of, I think, what we do well in this country, and particularly on the BBC, is create sitcom that, people invest in. They fall in love with the characters. They want to know, they want to spend more time with the characters.

That's the trick. Yeah. Can you really get into the captain's head at that time? I said the frustration, just the situation which he finds himself. Yeah, yeah. And not being able to reveal it and what the pressure must have been like

to have lived at that time. And then, of course, now, you know, being a ghost in the house and living in, modern times and they're not saying you know it's okay that and he and yet he still can't release that no because he can't because still stuck in that

time he's still stuck in that time so it just creates that lovely sort of tension in the character yeah and when you're writing this is what's also brilliant about those shows you all actually write it do you take turns to write episodes can't you? Well we what we did was we would storyline the whole six seven episodes we would

obviously there has to be a bigger story arc we'd storyline them together and then storyline the episodes and then you would sort of go away with this lovely bundle of ideas and a shape to the story and then you spend the time working that up into a script

and then it comes back into the room. It's a bit like an American writing room but not quite as fast and aggressive. Isn't there an American version of it? There is, yeah. What's that like? I mean, does it... It's very very, very good. It does exactly So it is now the, I think, the number one rated comedy in the US, CBS have taken hold of it.

It's completely Americanized. CBS have taken the idea. They used a lot of our storylines initially, but they do 22 episode seasons. And so the story engine is used very, very quickly. So they've had to sort of accelerate into telling sort of more, I don't know, bolder stories I guess and they sort of break break our rules but um the two show runners who um who created it uh who took on the idea they've done such a fantastic job with developing it that um and i'm genuinely thrilled for them because it is one of the hardest

things to do in um the american entertainment entertainment business is to is to get a show like that to work um and and to carry it off into sort of four or five seasons. I should mention that actually both fersions are on iPlay, aren't they? I mean, I'm going to be binging you. Listen, you've got a long,

you've got, you know, some long flights coming out. Downloadable and binge it. I mean, people are getting in touch. Ghost is brilliant, funny and sad. And one of my third watch, this is a very good. Correspondent, acting is brilliant.

Concept's wonderful. Best thing on TV for a long time. And I mean, many people will be showing that view. What about horrible histories then? Because that's, again, another one that's just been catching up with that. That just looks.

and both of these things, ghosts and that, are actually, they're funny, but everyone can watch it. There's no sort of a fence in it. No, exactly, yeah, yeah. You know, it's nothing nasty about it.

I mean, I grew up on, you know, watching all sorts of shows, anything I could. And I suppose back then, there was no, it was just like, this is a comedy,

this is a drama. And you, you know, you can watch comedy with your family and that's fine. So you'd watch Blackadder or you'd watch any of the wonderful sitcoms. And for me, that didn't really change. But for some reason, the industry had sort of going, well, this is a comedy for this age bracket or this age.

It's a grown-up comedy. And you're going, what does that mean? We didn't really sort of know, you know, we didn't really, it's just, well, no, it's just comedy. Everyone should be able to watch it. And so we did, you know, for ghosts, certainly we set out on that journey going, look, you know, with the BBC they wanted to

I suppose develop a family sitcom but without calling it as such and you just go, look, if you can just play everything very close to the line which we do and which we did in our mysteries a lot where you just

take the joke as far as you can but you learn that there's that sort of line that you can't really cross it must be tempting with the horrible histories though with C BBC to have that sort of pantomime

humour way you've got the sort of the kiddies humour and yet actually there's also grown up humour sort of laced laced into it as well

I mean is that I think our producer Caroline Norris who I should mention because it was you know she tried to sell that idea

for a long time to BBC and then eventually it said look yeah let's do it let's see what you know it was I'm sure

it will work as a sort of comedy sketch show of course let's give it a go but by doing that, it sort of gives you the rain to do, gives you free reign to do the comedy, but you've also

got to keep your, it is an educational show. Yes. But it turns out that, um, it's a pretty good way to educate because, you know, kids want to sit down and watch you running around, you know, Toga. Yes. Well, Henry 8th, I saw yesterday. Yeah. That's never going, that's never going to go, well, that's never going to leave me. Is it not? I was there. I'm sorry, but I just, I promise you, it was only one that has happened to click on. It's the first character that, the, the, um, Caroline said, would you mind, you know, we're going to give you Henry the 8th and, you know, give it a go, make it, make it yours, have some fun. And, you know, right at the beginning, it was like, well, what on that? What am I going to do here?

Well, I'll just do that sort of voice, because I imagine he was quite heavy set. And at the beginning, they put this massive, great big sort of chin, latex chin piece on with the beard on. I just thought, my God, I'm going to have to do this. Go through makeup, everybody. And in a big fat suit. And I just thought, well, I just have a bit of it. fun with this. No one's going to watch this, are they? Turns out that's my

Henry the 8th and the one that will... But it looks if you're having fun. That's the great thing about it. And I watched the RAF one, which is quite poignant. And I was going to this point to you, where you're doing something like the few? And there are an awful lot of young men who lost their lives in that. And yet

there's this sketch that you've done. To get the balance right between there's a sort of disco dancing isn't there. And which is brilliant, by the The dancing is fantastic. It's, um, it's, uh, it was very kind of you to say. No, but so how, where's that line? Where's that line between something's actually really serious and educational,

but yet doing it in a fun way, which that clearly is? That, I, do you know what? I think, um, we'd have a harder time selling that now. Yeah. I think there's a sort of, um, and I was worried, I was worried about at the time. And, um, my dad came down actually to, uh, we filmed it at, uh, we filmed it at, uh, Duxford and he was in the

RAF and I said can you come and just check the uniforms that we're at work he's a now a historian amateur military historian he said oh well

the top buttons have to stay undone and they would have worn cravats and I said and so you don't think this is I'd tell you he goes no no

they would have loved this and it was like right right okay so we sort of went into it with gusto just keeping our fingers across

you don't have to so careful you do well you have to be careful I mean yes the offence is you have to be very yeah.

Neil from Bergenhead. Tell Ben how much we enjoy deep trouble and double science. Ah. There's so much emphasis on TV work that often radio work

is neglected. Please keep on the radio stuff. And any chance of more work with Justin is that question. But anyway, look, well, that's the message. You've been great on radio today

anyway. You're not just a TV face. Thank you for coming, sharing a love of cricket and everything else besides, Ben. It's been lovely for having you. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.