Test Match Special - View from the Boundary - Dr Adam Rutherford

Episode Date: July 20, 2024

Jonathan Agnew talks to Dr Adam Rutherford. The scientist, educator and author regularly appearing on television and radio, and along with Dr Hannah Fry hosts the hugely successful BBC Sounds podcast “The Curious Cases of Rutherford & Fry”.From the TMS commentary box at Trent Bridge they discuss Adam's style when playing cricket, the lack of scientific testing to fully understand how and why a cricket ball swings, and which TMS regular is Aggers loosely related to?

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The first time this summer, finally, whatever date we are now in July, we can welcome a view from the boundary guest to the commentary box. Now, he's a scientist, educator, author, regularly appearing on television and radio, along with Dr. Hannah Fry, hosts a hugely successful BBC Sounds podcast, The Curious Cases of Rutherford and Fry.

From Essex, he grew up onipswich, dreaming of becoming a cricketer, and in fact, maybe that dream lives on, as he would have played tomorrow, if it weren't for a broken hand that we've been looking at. So a very warm welcome to Dr. Adam Rutherford. Look at you with your strapping, Adam. It's lovely to see you. Welcome.

Hello, Agos. Look at that. I know. Two middle fingers on my left hand. It was from a game. I was playing on Wednesday. Right. For the authors, which is my team.

And I just took one on the end of the finger. Just dubbed it on the end. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, I mean, as a broadcaster and as a cricket lover, how do you feel now? I'm a bit over-excited, to be honest. I mean, you just said as we were coming in, that, you know, it's just brought, you do a lot of radio.

I do radio every week for Radio 4. And as I was walking, I was thinking, yeah, it's just another radio studio. And then I thought, oh, I'm in the heart set. You know, you've been in my ear for most of my life. I had Stuart Broad talking about listening in his car with his grandfather the other day, which wasn't very nice. Well, that's what we used to do. 30 odd years, I know.

So, I mean, it was before, I was listening. before you, while you were still playing, but it was watching with my dad when I was a young boy. And I mean, people say this of my age. I don't know whether it's true or not, but we used to watch on BBC 2, but have the radio on, sort of sound off on the TV. And that is my earliest memories of cricket aged, you know, probably seven.

Yeah, I do honestly think that most people who get into cricket, their first contact was probably Test Match Special. sat in the car with their parents or whoever it may be, keen parents trapped in the car, they're listening to it on the radio, and you start to hear the voices and the rhythm of the game, and it all sounds rather good fun actually and lots of nice noise,

and I think for most people, I reckon radio is probably the first contact. Yeah, and I think that's definitely true for my family as well. My wife, who is not particularly interested in cricket, says to me quite often that the whole soundtrack of the summer is having TMS on just, continuously and she really loves that. And so just having the crackle and the noise

in the background and so when I said to her yesterday I'm going on TMS, oh that's nice and who'd be talking to her and I said, I think it's Agas and she said oh I like his voice. Well there you go. It kind of lift music in the background, isn't it? I mean, do you think you listen assiduously to every word that is said or it is just kind of there

in the background? I think you get the sort of lilting tone. I think you can anticipate, if you've listened all your life, I think you can hear when something is beginning to happen. And then there's the old line about how war is, long periods of nothing happening, punctuated by moments of extreme terror.

And it tastes much cricket and maybe TMS is a little bit like that. Yes, you can just drift for a little bit and then suddenly boom, something. But that's the beauty of test cricket, isn't it? Yes. You know, I mean, you know, in the shorter form we do get, of course you get your excitement and your dramatic moments. but I think sometimes because with test cricket there's a bit longer between those dramatic moments

actually they're more dramatic because of that as I've got older so I'm a I'm a purist in that for a long time I've maintained that not only is cricket humankind's greatest achievement and as an evolutionary biologist I feel like I'm somewhat qualified to state that with a little bit of authority maybe but I would add to that the test match is the pinnacle of the form itself

but in the in the last few years especially having children and taking my son to the Oval where we're members. And being initially quite snobby about the 20-over format a few years ago when it came in, I've completely changed my mind about that now. How old is your son? He's 16 now. Right.

But when he started, he was obviously younger and he got him into it. Yeah, yeah. And I made the mistake of taking him to, when he was a bit too young, of taking him to Lords on a Saturday afternoon where, I don't know, we were sort of carving out a draw. And no wickets fell, and it was very hot.

And even I was, you know, struggling to maintain interest in the game. And I think it sort of put him off for a while. So taking him to a T20 at the Oval and the excitement of that. Yes. So he's much more interested in football. We're Ipswich Town fans and season ticket holders. And have just had the greatest season of his life, not quite mine. But seeing the format and seeing the excitement

that the game can bring. And indeed, you know, we've just watched an hour of basball. Isn't that great to have watched that? It was astonishing. Yeah, I mean, proper... I've been talking in here about after the first test and how the West Indies didn't really play like the West Indies, you know, that lovely Caribbean flair that there is.

And we've just seen that today. Smiles on faces, playing the shots, going for it, you know, going back to the great teams of West Indies, you know, 80s and early 90s. They were aggressive, they were hard, They were brutal, but there was that sense of the smile on the face when they played, which is just so, so attractive to West Indies cricket. So I think that I, as a teenager, so I was born in 75,

and so my earliest memories of cricket are England in that golden era that you were part of. And then by the time I was a teenager, I had begun to be more teenage and lose interest in all the things that you like as a young person. Oh, didn't you? He went off the rails a bit. Well, not particularly, but, you know, just pretty standard teenage stuff. But then it was the West Indies team of the early 90s, and particularly the 91 West Indies series. I'm going to get the numbers wrong and you'll correct me,

or Zaltz will correct me, but Ambrose is, what did you get, 11, 480 something? It's my first season doing this actually. So the highlights of that series for me was Graham Gooch's incredible innings at Headingley in the first test match, which he would count as being, I think, one of his finest innings. And the leg over. Oh, was that that? Was that that series? Was that that series? Yes, it was. So those are the two standouts for me in 1991.

For me, it was... It was... But it was watching... I'm a little bit too young for the... the Viv era and Greenwich and the Blackwash game that you were... That you were in. That was my debut, yeah. A tough one. Tricky game that one. Yeah, a little bit. It's a little bit hostile.

A little bit. But I did what I did, and what I feel really quite angry about is that incredibly passionate West Indian support that was there, the clanking of the cans and the blowing of the whistles and the genuine love of cricket from that community that has gone. You know, and I know Ebony, who you know, is working so hard at trying to reignite that passion for cricket that is so natural within West Indian people. we've somehow successfully snuffed it out it seems and push that community very much the fringe of cricket and we've lost so much well i want so in the first in the first test

in this series that i i find that a bit heartbreaking to see the west indies do so perform so poorly because i want them to be a force in world cricket and the way that they were in the 90s in that era where i fell in love with the game again you know as a teenager um and so this is great You know, say to come here at 11 o'clock and think, you know, they've avoided the follow-on, but, you know, England are going to walk away. That's the problem is, that's the way the mindset that West Indian cricket followers have got into, isn't it? Oh, well, we'll get, look, we've done all right, but we'll lose. And then the silver comes out and starts playing, playing six.

I mean, that bizarre, bizarre six where he stepped away and his legs were wide apart and sort of lifts it. God, that was magnificent. So how's your cricket then? You can be brutally honest. Well, I played on, so I played for the authors. Right. Alongside people like who? Well, so Peter Francapan, the historian.

We've got a couple of historians, Tom Holland that people will know. Jonathan Wilson, the football writer. So you have to be a writer. Yes. You have to have written a book. Sebastian Forks? Bashar is our president. Okay.

So he played, he slipped to my keeping wicket for, I think, his final game, which was in Corfu a couple of years ago. So most years we go on a mini tour to Corfu, which is a great, which is a, most people don't realize. No, why'd you go there? Well, it's a really cricketing island to do with the English presence in there. So it's one of the Greek artists that had a longstanding English presence. And last year, I think, was a hundred and, I'm going to get the year wrong. Maybe it was a significant anniversary. or Corfu cricket.

Do you know Corfu? Never been. So the main square in the town, the Espionada, is this beautiful sort of Venetian palisade of shops and cafes and like so many Mediterranean towns. And it's got in front of a green square. And what almost no one realises is that it's a cricket pitch. And it's a pretty shoddy cricket pitch, to be honest,

and it's a concrete track with a mat over. Right, okay. But it is beautiful. And we play there, and the Greek national team plays on Corfu. And so we play a couple of sort of demo games and play against local sides, who all tend to be the sons of Indian expats who are in their, you know, late teens or early 20s. So we get wallops. Probably quite good, yes.

It's got a car park around the edge as well. And we play with a wiffle ball. Right. But you ask me how my cricket is. Yes. I think one of the high points of my cricket is, in a career has been I got three consecutive sixes and broke a car window right well that's impressive it's not really very very very short very short boundary right yeah but

that's still that's still that's still three sixes it was the window breaking that I was most proud of and then I had a sort of slight wobble because I thought that um well no one claimed it right what the car yeah and then I took I took a photo I took a selfie of me and the broken window, and I had a sort of internal wrangle. Do I post this to Twitter and risk someone saying, you need to pay for my car window? It's very honest. So I looked up how much it cost to replace a car window in Corfu and decided that it was worth it.

You did? Yes. Did the odour come forward? Not so far, but now I'm talking about that's TMS. Maybe they will. That's impressive. So you are a bouncer, are you? Wickegee batsman. Right. I normally come in at six or seven to... I got a decent eye but no technique.

I don't really know what the offside is for. Right, okay, so a bit of leg side swiping. That's a generous way of... So when you're growing up, when you're watching on BBC 2 and listening on the radio, who are you watching? Who are you trying to... I'm working out your ages again here. Yeah.

So you're... Not Jack Russell time. Jack Russell time. I mean, you were Jack Russell? It was. In fact, Jack Russell was, this is a terrible thing to say, but I've got slight animosity towards Alex Stewart. Oh, but you're a, you go to the Oval? It's not real, but it was the... He's a lovely chap. I'm sure he is, but it was that he was the first...

Jack Russell was the last specialist, all you do is keep with. Before Ben folks, yeah. Right, and I would have folks, he would my first person on this. on the sheet for the last several years, but what I do? And so when you started had also having to contribute to other areas of the game, which sort of began with Stuart? Yes, it did.

Well, I'll go not Taylor. That's going back to my time. I would say that was the first time that I was aware of that, what you're talking about, that genuine all-out wicketkeeper versus somebody who can do a bit of both. So Bob Taylor

was always considered to be the best wicketkeeper. but not nearly as good at batsman as Alan Knott, who was a very fine improvising. They had a beautiful wicketkeeper too, by the way. He wasn't, you know. So I'd say they were first, but then came the Stuart Russell.

You get a bit of animosity around, don't you? People feel very strongly about it, as they do with Ben Fokes. In this strange situation now, with Ben Hooks and Jamie Smith. Yeah, yeah. And he's got a funny stance, hasn't he?

He's a bit sideways, yeah. I've seen him yet, but he doesn't... He's only let his first buys through this morning. I saw it. That was all. He was actually kept very tidily. Yes, I saw it. It's, it's, I mean, the funny thing about Stuart as well is that I had some coaching in my 20s

because I decided I needed to be a better, a better bat. And because I'm very leg-sided, I'm very bottom-handed, I'm talking as if I'm a semi-pro. I'm not very good. I'm a enthusiastic. I think you probably established that, to be honest. Thank you. But a coach suggested that I took a leg guard. Right.

And did that little sort of Alex Stewart shuffle in? Oh, the little, yes. Take a couple of steps in, so I'm on my front foot. Yeah, the trigger movement, they call it, I think. I never had one of those either. Well, I don't know whether it made much difference. So you were involved in that debate, though, because as a wicketkeeper, I guess it is frustrating.

You know, if you do see someone who you know because you do it yourself, is really very special. And Jack was a very special wicketkeeper. And not a bad little bats one either, by the way. He was very gutsy. got stuck in but it would be frustrating wouldn't it I mean Alec let's face it did a wonderful job when he grew into that role of keeping and I always felt sorry for Alec because his dad was the coach yeah and so people said well he's only keeping wicket because Mickey's the coach and that

he was pretty good but of course he was and that was always I thought rather unkind on Alex until he proved otherwise of course well I think the other contribution that a keeper makes is if he's just a keeper if they're just a keeper is this is is definitely the chat chatter yes and I'm quite good at that. Oh, you see, that's infuriating. Yeah, I know. I do like that. Do you say interesting things, or is this sort of inane nonsense?

Well, you try to. You know, try to say interesting things that are slightly niggly. Right, okay. You know, when you're having a... Well, you know, it's a fine line between Bantz and sledging, I don't... Yeah. But it's just getting into the batsman's head, isn't it? The grudge match between the...

The annual grudge match between the authors, which is us, is with the actors. Right. So, and that's always fun because... Where'd you play that? So we did that this year at Arendall, which is my... Oh, lovely. What a great place to play.

Yeah, and it's skippered by Damien Lewis. Right, yes. Lots of actors that people will recognise like Ben Wilbon plays, so he's the captain from Ghosts. And, you know, they're a decent bunch. It's an autograph hunter's delight, I'd imagine. Indeed. Does it get promoted?

I mean, do you get crowds? Arendall, they do, so all the locals come and you give a, they get score sheets and so they fill out themselves. But it's also, you've pointed out what some of the sledging can be from the authors, which is, have I seen you in anything? Remind me, which advert was that that you, to someone who's been in Shakespeare? Not to do that too much. Oh, but a good line, though. Or one time, I mean, I think this is very funny. I'm not sure anyone else on the field did, but when, I had skyed one to, I don't know, Midwicked or somewhere,

and I felt the need to shout Macbeth as it was coming towards him, as a sort of curse, you know, the actor's curse. Yes, of course. He did drop it. I consider it to be successful. Not very gentlemanly, not very cricket. No, but it's imaginative. But it's not, you wouldn't call that sledging, would you?

That's the psychological. Cheating, I think, is what it is. No, I'm fully in favour of all that. If it's humor attached, that's okay, isn't it? But it's when it goes beyond that. And, of course, there are cases of where it does get personal and rude and racist and unpleasant. Yes. And that's for the unpower, you know, the umpire, well, it's not to be said in the first place, to be honest.

But, you know, as long as it remains at being that little, getting into the head of the batsman and just psychologically nibbling away at them. Yes. Yes, getting under the skin. Yeah. I think that's a legit part of the game but you can't stop that happening Kenny not really a little matter

You're out there for a long time And when you're the keeper as well It's a weird thing that you can be slightly isolated From the rest of the game Because you actually spend The person you spend the most time with Is the opposition Yes of course

You know at the stage when you've got no slips Yes you're just standing there with them Yeah you spend a lot of time You know standing next to the person That is your your nemesis The TMS podcast From BBC Radio 5 Live bring more gear carry more passengers face greater challenges welcome to the world of defender

with seating up to eight ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability it's built to make the most of every adventure learn more at land rover.ca i want to talk about your day job and i'm terrified because i don't know nothing about science and there's obviously been reading all sorts of things about it There's some very long words in there about what you do. Well, look, I know nothing about cricket, so I think we're on an even keel here. We don't really have great long scientific phrases and words and things. So I'll probably put our foot in this.

But what I have been saying, and you will be familiar, I know, with this whole question of why the ball swings. And this is, I suspect it would be one of the types of question that you might answer on your podcast, wouldn't it? Those sort of questions come in, many and varied. I'll be going through, I mean, all sorts of wonderful, weird topics that get sent into you. Your job is to explain them, but do it in a very accessible and understandable way,

which again must be quite a terrifying thing. But I want to know definitively about the swinging ball, because we never have that answered sufficiently. And cricketers will all say, to man, woman and child, when it's like this, cloudy, overcast, warm, humid, there's a gentle breeze blowing, that ball is going to swing around out there. The fact that in this country, the balls are all handmade and therefore slightly, tiny different, like handmade shoes rather than machine-made shoes, or whatever it may be, that ball is going to swing. But you say it on the radio and then I get people scientists with lots of letters after their name and probably professor before it say you're talking out so nonsense. This is not a weather-related meteorological thing at all scientifically blah blah blah I think oh no

here's the moment here is the moment where scientist stroke cricketer can say with no research done I'm afraid apart from your own playing experience why why does the the balls swing more or is it just that we're kind of willing it to? Yeah, you say I'm going to disappoint me in my answer and it's partly because it, what, the way this question is phrased reflects a misunderstanding of what science does and what it is. This is where I'm going to get caught, yeah, okay. Which is that it doesn't provide divinative answers and we're, we know that people often turn to science and say, tell me what the answer to this is and the most important phrase, the most important three words you can ever say in science,

is I don't know because I would expect you to say that I'll be very very disappointed if you said that well I don't know and when I say I don't know the answer to this it is because we don't know and what that means is that the research hasn't been done so there's so yeah I'm just as guilty of this as every person in this ground and every cricketer cricket fan listening that as we were coming in with my friend Chuck today we were looking at the weather and saying this isn't going to clear this is going to be good for the bowlers, you know, as everyone says.

That's the cricketer in you. And then at no point did we follow up, he's a doctor, so, you know, also, you know, scientifically orientated, at no point do we go, but why do we say that? Is that true? Where is the research that backs that up? And I'm sure, you know, plenty of people, scientists will be listening thinking, well, there is, there's got to be some. But the thing is that, so I'm writing a book about sports and science at the moment.

Right. And it's got lots, it's lots of different aspects of, of the relationship. relationship between sports and science. That's sort of human science, that sort of biology and fitness. Yeah, so lots to do with diet and basic physiology and genetics, which is my area, but also race, which is also an area I specialize in, I'm going to tackle gender, I'm going to tackle head injuries. So all sorts of aspects of the relationship between what we can know from a scientific

point of view and how it translates into this thing that we love and this thing that we do. not forget that cricket is the second most popular pastime for humans on earth, and the first is football. Right? So these are really significant things. But in doing the research for this book and looking at the science and sports science, there's a huge body of literature behind so many things. And what I'm finding is that quite a lot of it is not very good research.

And so there's this sort of assumption, I think, outside of science, that if you're a scientist or if you do science and if you publish in the scientific literature, then it's just true, right? It's just, once you've done the research and you push it out into the world, it must be true. It's just true. That is not the case, right? Publishing scientific research is an indication that something is worthy of further discussion and may yet turn out to be not true or nonsense. Just to be developed, basically. Yeah. And what I'm finding is that quite a lot of sports science is, I look at and think, well, I'm aren't quite right on that, or the conclusions aren't quite right on that, or I wonder whether this is an experiment that was done and didn't translate, but they published it anyway. And I think it's partly to do with the incentive structures being different, because in science, at least nominally, not actually, you're trying to find out what is correct, what is actually true.

But I think what happens in sports science often is you're trying to find out what will give you a marginal advantage to win. So there's no incentive to prove something is wrong once it's been shown to work. Okay. So anyway, an answer to the question is... What experiments do you want then? Because they must have been conducted. I mean, people have been tunnels and all sorts of stuff. Sure, sure. There's been lots of scientific analysis of many of the aspects of cricket. But I don't think any of them have come up with a definitive answer.

I could define, I could design an experiment now to answer this question definitively. But I'd need half a billion pounds and I'd need five years to do it. and I'd need a team of 30 people, minimum, and at the end of it, the most likely answer would be... I don't know. We're not sure. A bit like old-fashioned test matches. Yeah.

You know, five days at the end, and it's probably a draw. Yeah, that's... Well, that's... Okay. So, we don't know then, after all. Not really. No, not really. That is frustrating. But in science, we do...

There's so many things that you think are true that we actually don't really know. Things like, you know, I look at you, you've got blue eyes. Yes. When you're 16 and you do... GCSE biology and we learn the inheritance patterns of blue eyes and brown eyes and we learn that the genes are that you need to have... I think I failed that.

Okay. So if you're doing your GCSEs, listen to this bit. That blue eyes are recessive and brown eyes are dominant and you need to have one copy of a brown eye gene to have brown eyes but you need to have two copies of the blue eye gene to have blue eyes, right? If you write that in your GCSE exam then you'll pass that that question. It's not true and we don't really know how eye colour works in eyes. right in eyes in genetics and in people and so we're locked into this system in science and teaching science which is that these things are true because they've been shown to be true and therefore this is what you need to know and the truth of the matter is that we actually don't know

loads of stuff that you just assume is true and what you're asking me is to answer a question we don't know really not what the answer is well i'm glad you'd come that's obviously saving that up all day yeah don't know we don't know what is it about genetics so that that fascinates you. It's, oh god, I wish you'd asked me that 30 years ago and I would have done some more batting training instead. It's the fundamental basis of all life. So we have DNA and we have genes and genes in code. Proteins and proteins are what we're made of or by.

And that's us, but it's also the same for every single organism that is ever in. organism that has ever existed for the last four billion years. So it's like asking the question, what is the fundamental nature of living things? And how does that turn this basic code, these letters in our genomes, into everything that we see, every blade of grass, every human who's ever held a ball or bat, and every animal that's ever existed? And so you're asking the most fundamental questions about why life is the way it is, and genetics is the way in to answering those sorts of questions. Yeah, I mean, it must be something you could just never really fully get to grips with it, isn't it? Because it's just been almost impossible, the depth of this

is almost impossible. Yeah, well, I'll never be out of work. No. And 20 years ago, the human genome was published, which was supposedly the definitive, complete description of the DNA of a human being. And it was hailed by the great and the good as this is the answer to everything and soon we will know everything about humans and we will cure all diseases. You know, Tony Blair and Bill Clinton were on stage saying these sorts of things. You know, 25 years later, I remain gainfully employed, as do all geneticists around the world, saying, yeah, we don't really know how any of this stuff works. No. And yet it affects everyone. I can show you my hand. Yeah. What's going on with this little thing? There we go. What's going on with all of them,

actually. That is because apparently I am a Viking descent. Ah, well now you're in my, now you are in my territory. Yeah. So it's not my fault. It's not my mum's fault or my dad's fault or my uncle or anyone. Yeah. Someone back in the day. Yeah. Some Viking. Yeah. And this is this is, this is, this is, this is, apparently, you have to be a Viking origin to have it. Shall I, this is going to be another reason I'm not going to get it back invited onto this programme. Every single European person that exists today, everybody in this country, every person in Europe, every person in this ground, is of Viking descent. I'm afraid, really, I guess you're not special in that regard. I thought I was. No, afraid not. There's

a whole industry of commercial tests that will tell you that you are. Oh, now Ebony's done one of these. She tried to, she... Ebbs is of Viking descent as well. No, she's not. He It certainly is. Fiking as well. Well, how come I've got this and she hasn't? She's got very straight fingers. I know. She's just much younger than you.

So how... Sorry on a minute. You've lost to me with the Viking bit now, because I assume... So I'm wrong in assuming that the whole Viking genealogy, it hasn't... It gets kind of spread around the world, is it? There's a point in time that if you go back far enough in any population or any country or nation or... or nation or geographical landmass. There's a point in time where every single branch

of every single person's family tree crosses through every single person who's alive at that time. It's quite a tricky... Do you remember when... You know the program, Who Do you think you are? Yes. Do you remember when they did Danny Dyer? I don't think I saw that one. Well, Danny Dyer, the actor, cockney actor,

and it turned out that he was 21 generations directly descended from Edward III. And it was a really cool moment in TV because he's this working class cockney boy landlord of the Queen Vic. And then And, you know, they showed that he was descended from royalty. Well, I did. I watched that program.

And I thought, that's really cool. And I thought, I wonder if, I wonder if it's, how true it is for everyone. You know, how many people in Britain are descended directly from Edward III. So I spent a weekend working with, with Hannah, Fry, mathematician, who I do the program with. And we spent a couple of days working on this. And we came to the conclusion that the chance of anyone born in 1970s in the UK not being descended from Edward III was zero, not even small. Literally zero.

Actually, it was 10 to the minus 27, so more than the number of people who've ever existed. But basically, you are descended from Edward III, as is Ebb's, as I am, as is Henry, as is literally everyone in the stand in Trent Bridge. We are all somehow, minutely. Direct. Direct. But directly. No, not mine.

Equally, equally descended, because you have the same. If you are descended from anyone, then they are your ancestor in the same way. So if you have... So we are all directly connected? Directly descended. I'm directly... No, you're... Yeah, you're probably...

You and Ebbs are probably fifth or sixth cousins. Oh, congratulations, Ebony. Come give me a hug. When's your birthday? I must remember send you a car. Yes, but you now have to hug everyone in Trent Bridge as well, because they're also... Wow. And given that Ebs has Afro-Caribbean

ancestry, she's probably a little bit more distant from most of the people of Nottingham. Well, that's take me by surprise of it. That's extraordinary. And I can see why it's such a fascinating subject, though, and why you never really get down to the bottom of this vast, bottomless pit of information and... I've still got a lot of work to do, I think, yeah. And again, is that the fascination, though, for you? Just the fact that it is this, this vast, vast topic of throwing up surprises like that? I think it's stories. So my interest in human genetics

and these sorts of ancestry and genealogy type questions, which I write about a lot, are, well, you know, science is hard, right? And it's very technical and requires, you know, really tedious and difficult maths and stats and experiments. But what I do is I talk about them because I think that the connection that you can get people interested in science is by telling stories about their ancestry.

So, and their ancestry and their genetics and, you know, why people, we yearn for answers about to the questions of why we are who we are. Absolutely. And our families. Well, hence that program for a start. Exactly. It's a brilliant concept. Yeah. And you saying, you saying, well, I have Viking ancestry and explain something about me is part of you attempting to put yourself in the grand narrative of history.

Now, sometimes it's the job of scientists to come to parties and ruin them, which I do. clearly have just done. Well, no, I'm going to tell people from now on, when I get, oh, a Viking descent, I'm going to tell them that. Well, yes, it's true. Quite possibly. But then, yeah, just tell me, the players are coming out shortly. I can see them gathering there, so we just crack on.

Ebony, I get me, a lot of mentions today. I don't know quite why. She sat down with me a couple days ago, and I'm not going to say this particular site, but you can key stuff in, and you get answers back and information back, and not even that, but poems and recipes and all sorts of stuff.

It's one of these AI sorts of things. How much misinformation is there out there? Are you talking about an AI chat? Yes, basically, I can key in something. I could key in 10 questions for you. Yeah. Which I've just ticked them all off, by the way. It came back with a 10 question.

No, I'm teasing. How much of that do you believe? How much false information, fake information is there out there? Well, there's a lot of false information out there. But I think that the types of chatbots that you're talking about, the specific one I think you're referring to, they are very, very impressive in terms of what they do. And are developing at a rate, which I think is, if not troubling,

it's something to be very aware of. They are being sourced, the source information that they're using is the Internet. So if there's lots of misinformation out there that they're using, then that potentially can come into the output when you ask a specific question. So I'm a lecturer at UCLA and my students, we've wrangled quite hard about whether students are allowed to use. Yeah, how do you know that they're using or prevent them from using? So I take the view that it's a tool and they can use them, but they can use them as a basis for starting an essay or answering a question. And not cutting and pasting? Yeah, and we can spot that.

Generally, you can spot that. As it progresses, we might be able to spot it less well. But they can, you know, you can see because the language is really tedious, it doesn't sound like humans. But I take the view that it's research. We don't ask people to write essays based on nothing and starting from the absolute beginning. They start with content that they looked up and used to be the Encyclopedia, and then it was Wikipedia and now it's chat GPT.

It's a starting point, in other words. I think that's okay, but you just have to be very aware that it might be a load of old coblets. Yes, yes. Interesting. Adam has been lovely to have met you. You too, Agas. Dr. Adam Rutherford, thank you very much as he for coming in. Fascinating. I think I'm related to Ebony. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know who's had the biggest shock there. But anyway, thank you for revealing that. How do you really have to get over that? I'm expecting birthday cards Christmas cars. I know. This is what's. I want to be invited. rounds of dinner more regular. This is a disaster.