Test Match Special - View from the Boundary: Gareth Southgate

Episode Date: July 6, 2023

Men’s England manager Gareth Southgate joins Jonathan Agnew for a View from the Boundary. Southgate talks about the differences in managing in football compared to cricket, what he learnt from Euro ’96, and batting with his son.

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including playing in the semi-files of Euro 96. But as a manager, he's excelled becoming England's most successful boss since Sir Alf Ramsey. He took England to the semifinals of the World Cup at his first tournament in 2018 and in 2020 became the first manager to reach the final of a major men's tournament since 1966 when England lost to Italy at Wembley in the final of Euro 2020.

But I wonder if his proudest achievement was scoring an unbeaten 22 since Panlash against the local rivals Spoffer Second in Yorkshire's Niddardale League. Hello, Gareth, Southgate. It's lovely to meet you. Thank you. I wonder what the answer to that is. I mean, 22 not out.

That's dizzy heights. Well, one of the privileges in my life that, Agnes, because I got to actually bat with my son for a few balls. Oh, that's nice. For any father that plays cricket, you know, that's a very special moment. Oh, that is lovely. I'm just going to take you to task, though.

Look at the effort I've gone to to welcome you. I was walking through Leeds yesterday, and I thought, that chap Garrow Southgate, he used to play with the waistcoats. And there, in the window of an old shop in town, they had a sort of a rack of waistcoats in a sale. I'll be honest, I haven't gone overboard for you. This is 30 quidst worth, right?

But at least I'm where, where's yours? I thought, come on. Well, I've lived in Yorkshire for 20 years, and although I'm not born and bred, I know if I'd rocked up at Headingley in a waistcoat today, I'd have got plenty of stick walking in. Actually, I'll be honestly, I've got a bit, and I walked out. But would this fit the mould?

I mean, would this be a Southgate? Very good. I'm very impressed. Very impressed. Yeah. All right, good. Now, how have you enjoyed this morning? Because you've been sitting out on a balcony down there.

You're getting the atmosphere. Oh, it's been brilliant. I mean, I've been virtually behind the bowler's arm. So, you know, to see England bowl and fit, well, I was going to say field, to see them bowl as well as they have. And, of course, we knew to them. day was going to have an edge with what happened at Lord's so a brilliant day to be here yeah are you sensing that edge i mean it can be quite lively here anyway to be honest can't it yeah yeah do you feel

there is a bit of a bit of an undercurrent well i think so but as you say the west terrace is is hard to tell any difference from normal really so you wouldn't expect as an ozzie to come here and be welcome with open arms but um no i mean it's a brilliant morning's play for england yeah i mean you see mark wood bowling like that and i mean in any fast bowler to see 92, 93 miles an hour and stumps being ripped out the ground. I mean, that's kind of what, it's what test cricket is. I think the, yeah, I know there's always this debate about test cricket and where it sits now, but I mean, I grew up, you know, sitting, watching, I've just been talking, well, Jeff, Jeff's just been telling me downstairs who I should

be picking and that as usual. Oh, no, he's not down there, is he? But, um, boycott, is it down there? Yeah, he is. Oh, sorry. But, but. we're trying to put him off you'd be subjected to Geoffrey I'd say it was more subjected when I was watching him when I was a kid there we go

that's very true if I contrast that watching him and Chris Tavre open to what we see now in terms of the speed of scoring I mean the game is just projected forward doesn't it?

Yeah it has he does like his football though no he does I mean I'm tongue in cheek he's been very supportive I have to say but yeah yeah so you can remember those days, can you, of Geoffrey playing and so on and so. Do you go back to that?

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, when I was growing up, it would have been Bob Willis and Otham and Mike Brearly's team. And then that great West Indies team, Greenwich Haynes and Clive Lloyd, Fiv Richards. So, yeah, I used to love watching test cricket all summer and then listening to yourselves, driving down to the West Country on holiday and having the radio on in the car all the way down. So, yeah, they're great memories, really. Radio does it somehow, don't you think? I mean, TV, obviously, you know, what you do, you're on a lot.

But, I don't know, TV is sort of on a wall these days mainly, and it sort of talks to you. But radio somehow, it's so communicative, I think. Without a doubt. And I know, even with our own sport, you know, as a kid used to listen to matches in midweek on the radio because football wasn't on live as it is now. And, of course, that description that was so vivid in your mind,

as a kid and you're trying to picture so it's essential part of people's lives. So take us back to this big game then for your 22 for panel ash. I mean because I read summer actually that you're no mugger cricket I mean you know all Mickey taking

aside I mean you played a bit to a good stand. Well not particularly I mean I wouldn't have been at the level that the Nevels were for example they were I think Phil especially could have gone either way couldn't he with football or cricket so so I know my place

but yeah I could do a bit of everything but not to an outstanding level no but what batting bowling? Yeah probably more of a bowler but I think when I was a kid I was at school in Sussex so

you know now living in Yorkshire the difference between the amount of cricket that's played up here and the number of junior clubs and how much it's played at school you know it's no wonder that the county is so strong because you're just surrounded by it. Yeah, and this team, looking it up again,

so the Niddardale League. Yep. I mean, just describe a typical sort of Saturday or Sunday where Saturday or Sunday you're playing, or just weekend for you. Well, that would have, yeah, I mean, that would have been my only appearance, really, whether that says how well I played or whether that was just my availability, I'm not sure, yeah.

But I mean, it just sounds lovely. I mean, the panel ash against Spoffeth seconds. I mean, is it less a lovely little sort of village grass no that's exactly it that's exactly it and yeah I mean Beckwith Shore is our local

club which was where we used to try and help out as well so yeah I used to run the T's there on a Saturday morning for a period when I was out of the game so yeah I've loved being involved in it's nice to volunteer at times and just help sport generally

isn't it? Yeah and as a cricket fan I've loved watching my son play a bit and yeah to get a bigger better feel of the game. Yeah. Does he play football, Flynn, as well? Or is it a complete sort of sport change for him? So there's not the pressure of dad, which...

Yeah, well, exactly. Well, also, I coached him, so that put him off football for life. Right. But, no, I mean, he's always been a... He's always preferred cricket. And, yeah, I think it does help as well. Although, I don't think you let too many people know who your dad is when you're just going into bat.

Because obviously, now the ball would be flying around his head a bit more. Yeah, but you do see it, don't you? I mean, I'm thinking of, in both of them, for instance, you know, and others who have to try and follow in the footsteps of a famous sporting father or mother. And it's tough, it's hard. Yeah, no, I think for those kids who have followed their parents into sport, I think that is hard.

I mean, you can pass on some great lessons, but of course to try and find your own path is really important in life. And, yeah, I'm happy. my two are going to go in a different direction and make their own way, it's good for them. When I was playing, Gareth, I played with Chris Boulderson, and there was Phil Neal, and there were others who, of course, were able to combine cricket with football, and that just seemed like a sort of a dream, really. I think Chris Bollerson, I'll get the teams wrong, but he played for Leicestershire at Chesterfield,

a very important game against Derbyshire, towards the end of the season, and then he went up, and he played with Doncaster or something like that, I think. The Rovers, I mean, that same day, it's like the Roy of the Rovers stuff, isn't it? I mean, what a chance. I mean, that's just impossible these days, I guess. Yeah, I think so. I think both sports are so professional, and both sports are almost 12 months of the year, aren't they? So it's, I don't think it would work.

I mean, when I was a kid, Ian Botham was playing at Scunthorpe, and I think Steve O'Grisovich had some games, didn't he? You did, yeah. At the county level, so, I mean, it would be wonderful if that was still possible, but I I think we've gone past that time. It's such a shame. If you had to put your finger on the sort of cricketing moment that the spark was lit for you. I'm trying to work out your age by me.

Headingly, 81, the both in the Test Match. I mean, you remember those sorts of things. Definitely, yeah. And the World Cup final at Lords, West Indies. Oh, yes, of course. Or beating the indie game or England. Yeah, against England, I think. So, yeah, I mean, but I used to watch every summer.

And, yeah, I loved it. And I've been fortunate over the years when I was playing to get to know a few of the players. So I've known Alex Stewart for years, who's become a very close friend. And now we've linked in quite a bit with the guys. You know, in the last few months, I've spoken quite a bit with Rob Key to find out what they're doing. Yes. When Andrew Strauss was running things, we linked quite a lot with England football and England cricket. So we try to share ideas on coaching and player development and pathways, those sorts of things.

So there's a strong link. And what do you make of what's happened with English cricket? I mean, I was saying the West Indies a year or so ago. In Grenada and the whole sort of thing blew up, really. What have you made of the last year, this sort of complete revolution, really, in mindset and obviously the way they've got out and played? Have you been watching that? No, without a doubt, because, I mean, the first thing is,

was that people were telling us we should be doing the same. Is it possible? That happens quite a lot to me really. So can you in football take on what they've tried to do with it? Well, I think there is a, you know, I think we have looked at what their approach to things has been. I've certainly looked back at the mindset shift

because, you know, when we took over our team six, seven years ago, there was a lot of fear. Yes. And we've tried to. reduce that fear and now we've got a team that have far more belief going into games but recognizing the individual strengths and trying to get people to play you know to what they're most comfortable with I mean it would strike me that this England team with players like Harry Brooke coming in you know you don't want to restrict talent like that people are always

going to criticize a shot if he gets out yes but um when when you see them players as well as they do and can and when you see in innings like Ben Stokes' last weekend, then it's drawing in a new generation of fans and the excitement that it's bringing. And quite possibly we could have lost those games playing with a different approach anyway. So do you think it's a mindset thing?

You know, just a complete change of approach and attitude and really sort of, I think a cricket to heaping the pressure back onto the opposite. position it seems to be and that would work for you that sort of thing yeah yeah I think I think um you try to find comparables and of course these things you've got to assess over a longer period of time because with any team you can have some short-term wins and I think that's built confidence in this test team and then you know for me it's been fascinating how quickly the criticism has turned in these after these last two games so in the end results define people's

reactions but then you've got to perhaps adjust a little bit to what you're thinking is you're learning all the time as a coach or as a captain and I don't think it's as straightforward as complete freedom there's got to be there's got to be some flexibility in how you play in any sport yes but I think the initial shift to try and reduce the fear and change people's mindsets was was really important and I'm sure now they'll review what they're doing and and they'll tweak it and they'll learn together as a team. Yeah. I mean, you've probably worked out by now.

I know nothing about football. Unfortunately, I've never played. I wish I had at school. I wish I'd got into it. We just didn't play it. But going back to when you took over, did you think the Iceland game was kind of England's Grenada moment of a year ago. And it really did need some pretty drastic work.

Not just with the players, but also the people who, you know, the fans, the people who support the game. I remember a lot of angry headlines and the usual stuff when England losing football about the players not caring and all of that. So when you did take over after Sam Adelaide's that brief period, what was in your mind about how to try and get rid of that baggage,

get rid of that sort of feeling of hostility from people and the media too and trying to engage with the players in a more positive way and vice versa? Was that part of your agenda then? It was and there were a lot of people involved within that, within the FAA. When you're trying to influence change,

you've got to keep winning matches as a football manager especially. So we still needed to qualify for a World Cup, but as we were going through that process, what we were trying to do was be a bit more open. We recognised our relationship with the fans is generally created through the media. Speaking with you guys is our opportunity

to talk to our fans. So that had become fractious and that had become not particularly enjoyable for anybody on either side of the microphone really and we just tried to explain to our players that you know you can actually get more of your own messages out you can control the message not control the message but let people see how much you care and and the the actual characters that we have in the team because um i don't think the players were showing the best side of themselves and now people talk to me lot about how good this young team are and how they like them, but I don't think that our

guys are particularly different to the last generation. They've probably just been a little bit more open in how they are. Social media, of course, allows that as well. They can publish their own Instagram stories and they can connect with the fans in a different way. But ultimately, you've got to win football matches because none of that matters if you're not winning. So we've had to combine all of those things, but the biggest pleasure for me is that when I go to places like today people have enjoyed watching the team

and they feel a strong connection because with the national team that's everything. Yeah, yeah. Do you think back then when you started that the players actually enjoyed playing for England and that's different to wanting to play for England but do you think I actually enjoyed it

because of the microscope and the pressure and when it does all kick off when they lose games like that? I mean, is that a fair question, do you think? It is. I think there was a fear of failing and therefore

you stop thinking about what might be possible because in our world perhaps people didn't want to be the guy that made the error that knocked us out of a tournament and of course I was in a good position to deal with that because I had been that guy

I wasn't going to bring that up well I thought we might as well get there so so you know I could stand there and genuinely say to the fellas look life goes on whatever mistakes if you're going to be sport, you're going to make mistakes, you're going to lose games, but we've got to think about

how good we might be. And rather than going out there, trying not to make mistakes, if that's the mindset, you will make errors. And this goes back to this freedom of expression, if you like. But you have to trust, you've got to trust your selectors. You've got to trust your boss, haven't you, to go out and play like that? Because certainly in cricket, you make a mistake. You make, like England batting in the first innings at Lord. You play those. You do have to have faith in the people who's delivering that message that actually they're not going to just chop you off. No, definitely.

Yeah, definitely. Well, that's building trust with your players. And it's not what you say. It's your actions, ultimately, that decide whether the dressing room believe that messaging or not. So if I'm stood next to the dugout and players are making mistakes and I'm jumping up and down like John Cleese, then they're going to get the feeling that, you know,

this guy isn't as genuine as he said. So I think what impresses me with Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullum, their body language doesn't change. You know, when those moments of pressure come or the errors are coming, they're maintaining that level, visually that level approach. I'm sure there's a lot more going on in their head. And I think the rest of the team will feed off of that. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds.

Jonathan Pye. I want something better than that. No. What's wrong with called Jonathan Pye? It's really boring. Okay, so let's all do a brain fart. Actually, what about that? Jonathan Pye's brain fart. It's hilarious. Jonathan Pye, off my chest. Off my chest. Doing the fat, chewing the

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Yes. Call Jonathan Pye, listen first on BBC Sands. Well, you mentioned it. I mean, I wasn't going to mention Euro-96, Gareth. But, I mean, that experience, though, you've probably talked about loads of times, but, I mean, did that change? How do you cope with it?

Because of the expectation and because of the pressure. And also, I mean, how does it help you deal with the players? No, I guess some of them couldn't even remember that, could they? No, no. So it's kind of irrelevant to their lives, but very relevant to you and the way you deal with them. Yeah. Well, I mean, it really hits home when the birth date of some of your players is 2003.

So that's, you know, and the last thing players really want to hear is what life was like when you were playing. It was always better then. Well, exactly. But I think you can empathise with players, and you can put yourself in their situation. I think what it taught me, and it took me a long time,

You know, we didn't have the support networks now, support psychology was just starting. I mean, will that have helped? Well, I think it would, but in the end, you've got to find your own way through these things in life. And setbacks are going to happen. I've been fortunate in my life that mine have been in a professional capacity. And so I've learned a huge amount. They've been really public. They've been hard to cope with.

But once you've been through those, you know, extremely. lows, then you start to build resilience and you feel that, okay, if I can cope with that, then anything, I can deal with anything really. And so I think that allows, hopefully that's allowed me to give the team more freedom to have that same mindset and not try and be the best version of themselves. That's what every coach is aspiring to do. It shows what sport means to people that, isn't it? I mean, you miss a penalty. You drop a catch, you Johnny besto you drop a catch you know it's all in a day's work in a way isn't it and yet the magnitude of that event is just it's just colossal in that case well it is when you're playing at professional

level and you know you're you're you're taking people out of their daily life and you're you're exciting them taking them on a journey with you as a team um you're lifting their fears and their worries about general life and you know we are we are part entertainment industry so you have to accept that passion then comes into that passion is part of sport and the disappointment is hard for people to contextualize and that's where the dressing room so important that they maintain a certain level because you can't be as emotionally high or low as the the crowd get and therefore in those difficult moments, certainly as a coach now I've got to make sure that the players stay

on track and they keep belief in what we're doing and they're not overly negatively affected by a defeat or a bad performance because in sport you're going to lose games as we said earlier. So now of course everybody else that's analysing it and critiquing it has got to have a stronger

view and we'll give a stronger view but within the dressing room you've got to, you have to protect the players from that and guide them through those times. Just the last one There's a conversation about being entertaining losers. And that's a real balance, isn't it? You know, I mean, the matches that England have lost have been entertaining, but they've lost.

And so, again, is that kind of a line that you think about? I mean, do try and be entertaining football team? But obviously you want to win. I mean, again, it's a juggling act. It is. Well, I would say our World Cup last winter was an example of that. I think people liked the way we played. I think they felt that we, you know, a game, course of final,

against France that we should have won. So to a certain level the public were happy that the team had given a good version of themselves. But ultimately, from our perspective, we were scratching our heads a bit because we felt the reception coming home on the back of a court of final defeat

was warmer than it probably should have been or might have been. So I think what it does say is that, especially with the national team, it does matter to people how you play and how you go about your job and the responsibility of representing your country and how you conduct yourself.

I think that is all wrapped up in playing international sport but of course ultimately as a team and as a fan base you want to win as well so the sweet spot is to do both if you can play well and lose you know there'll be a bit of leeway if you play poorly and lose then forget it you've got no jokes

it's interesting what you're saying about conversation with Rob Key and so on about the two positions and the two sports and how you can rub things off and yet in a way the structures are so completely different aren't they because England's cricketers are all wraps up on central contracts Rob Key, Brendan McCollum

you know they've got them exactly where they want them under contract they can do what they like it feels just looking in as a total outsider again utterly different to you in that it's the club that controls it and you get a handful of games a year building up to a massive tournament the following year I mean is that quite frustrating

well they are the constraints of international football so we have to find the best way of working within those constraints and ahead of the World Cup in Qatar we only had the players for five days you know normally you'd have perhaps three weeks I know England rugby will have their guys for five or six weeks before their World Cup so you have to really focus on what are the most important things you can't cover everything you'd like to cover you can't give the level of detail that you'd like to to give because otherwise the players will be swamped with too many much information and you are a lot more reliant on the clubs for the physical preparation of the players and for the psychological condition they

come in because if they're having a bad time with their club you've got to try and address that in a very short space of time and get them into a better place to play for you so there is more outside of your control without a doubt and tactically

you've got someone who's playing for a club and has been all summer and suddenly he's playing for you and you've got different ideas and he's got someone different to playing alongside of or passing to or whatever I mean that must be

and you've only got a few days to do that yeah and that's where some stability for us is important if I looked at our two you know we're in Yorkshire our two centrebacks both have been from Yorkshire Barnsley and Sheffield

McGuire and Stones they would have played probably 40 matches for England together that knowledge of what the other guy's going to do, what his preferences are, those things definitely help. So if you've got a group of three or four from one club,

that definitely helps your cohesion as a team. But equally, we've also got to bear in mind in that short period of time. We can't ask players to do something that's wildly different from what they do at their club. And we're fortunate that most of the top teams now play a similar style of football, they all press aggressively when they lose the ball

so there are some common threads that can connect you very quickly but we will be slightly different to all those other teams and we have to get those messages across really clearly and our most Premier League managers happy to see you because you're going to take that player away to sort of hide under a big hat or something when you turn up just in case I mean do they welcome it do they welcome their players being picked for England

well we have a Spanish manager of Manchester City, a German manager of Liverpool, an Argentinian manager of Chelsea now. You can see what the problem is. Yeah. No, but I have to say, look, the big managers understand that they're going to lose their players to international football. So the big clubs, that's part of their landscape as well.

Of course, every club manager would prefer not to release their players because you don't want players coming back injured or having had a difficult experience. But they understand it. And I have to say our relationships are as good as I think they can be. You know, there's always going to be some friction because their objectives are different to ours. But we try to communicate through all of those things as well as we can. And I think there's a sort of mutual appreciation, really.

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, cricket people like me listening, and that argument seems really weird. No, I mean, everything is about playing for England. Yeah. Was it for you when you started out in football? You had, you know, England football teams on your wall and bedroom wall and stuff.

It certainly was for me with cricket. The county cricket was great, of course, and you couldn't play for England without it, but the driving ambition was always to play for England. Yeah, my only ambition as a boy was to play for England, nothing else. I think it's the same now with younger players? I think it is, yeah.

So I see our under 15s who get a call up for England, and they arrive at our training centre in Burton, and the parents might drop them off, and they drive back down the driveway. proud and the boys get their first shirt and their first cap and then I see what it means to our senior players when you know we've taken on what what you guys do with presenting that first cap and making a you know something more special and it's everything you know the life stories of these boys to get one international cap are incredible what they've overcome and the chances of

getting to that level are so small so competition it is you know you've read these stories don't you of Saturday morning club football and mum and dad are down there and they lose it with the ref and I mean the pressure the expectation on some of these youngsters that pressure put on by their parents must be overbearing I would think in many cases I think it's in many cases I think it's something that we have to be conscious of because you know for most kids that play football at the weekend it's just about getting out and playing and having fun so grassroots football is really important but it's important for health it's important for community it's important for kids to learn you know i think the debate about spirit of cricket there's a broader debate about what sport brings to our lives

at a recreational and grassroots level that's hugely important for society and then we have the professional strand of that where okay now you're thinking about a career um but there's definitely more expectation and pressure on our boys now because when i started you know you you're you hoped you could afford a new car, you hoped you might be able to get a mortgage on your house. Now the money for the family is life-changing. And you see families put enormous pressure on these kids at a really young age, and it's not healthy.

No. Go on, spirit of cricket, spirit of football. Where's your line on all of that? You, as Gareth Southgate, an England manager, kind of sets the tone. I watch football from a totally ignorant point of view, and I see football is going down, looking at it being shot on the last.

and next minute they're running around I mean is there still spirit of the game in football well I guess we're the advantage we have is we're pretty clear there isn't there isn't well I think the players kind of have

an unwritten code of some sort yeah I think there still is so I mean I'm I have never ever encouraged the player to dive or to simulate to buy a foul it's just not I'm not comfortable with that have we had penalties given that

were soft, I would say we probably have. But I think the interesting thing with cricket and how it's viewed is they almost seem as though there's an expectation of another level. I think it's held as a sport that should set a different sort of example. Not quite sure why. Well, no, but... Just tradition. Yeah, I think it is tradition. I think within football, I recognize whenever an England team goes out, we're still representing everybody. Everything I say is scrutinized that I'm an ambassador for the country when I speak. So I've got

to have, you know, I've got to respect that position I'm in and therefore there is an expectation of how the players behave when they're with this and how they play. You know, our game is more fluid and fouls are going to

be given and so there's always this balance in any sport of what's sportsman what's trying to find an edge and what are the limits within that and I found the debate fascinating because How do you feel about it on the other day with your cricket hat on as it were?

Well when I watched it live and they started appealing I thought oh right well I'd assumed that he'd put his foot back in the crease but what was interesting to me was that every ex-player I heard interviewed was saying no no no it's naive he's out

so you know I think sometimes the crowd have a perception of something that's very different to the way the players and the coaches see it but that all feeds into then what happened afterwards and what's the reaction to it and the one thing that was clear was that the reaction in the long room that's not what I would expect as an Englishman

of people in a privileged position to go and watch so yeah I thought the whole thing was a fascinating debate shows people care or the ashes gets people going no without it well I played with a lot of Aussies at club level. So, you know, 2005, I was at Middlesbrough with Voduka and Schwartzor, and every day's play was debated. And, you know, the messages were flying as the things were going on.

So, yeah, so I'm desperately hoping we can pull this series back. And next year, it's obviously a big one for you. What's that like with the pressure on, I mean, I'll be popping off down to my supermarket and I'll get my flag and I'll put it on my car window like everybody else and wave it, you know, because everyone gets behind those big football events, don't they? But, you know, then after a few weeks they come down again, or a few rounds, pack him away to next time. What is the actual pressure like?

When you have these players for such a short time, and you're going off to some remote part of Europe, and you sort of gather together only for a few days, and you know the whole country is just waiting, waiting for good results. How do you deal with that? Well, I think I'm 52 now, so I've lived through a lot of different things and I view it as an opportunity rather than a pressure. You know, we've tried to say to our players, you know, this is our chapter, if you like.

If an Ashes series are five books on your shelf and there's all these chapters within that and the continuing storyline, you know, the last three haven't been written yet. And that's what it is for us. We have the opportunity to write those chapters and to create memories that will live with people forever and to a degree we've done that, not to ultimately where we want to be, but we have done that.

And so my mindset as I've got older as being, well, let's embrace that challenge. Let's go for that. And let's try and be the best that we can be rather than fearing what if it goes wrong. because frankly if things go wrong I'll have lived through more difficult times anyway so

I guess it comes back to trying to enjoy it again does it and actually revel in that support from back home the expectation yeah without a doubt because why did we all start playing sport we loved it you know we if I look at what the players are trying to do

here they're trying to take them back to when they first picked a cricket bat up and there weren't too many things going on in their head and they just played and I think that's what you're seeking as a coach all the time. Now, you know around that there's this noise and this drama, but in the end it's still 22 yards or it's the same goalposts for us. And you're constantly trying to connect back to that joy of playing.

Because I think that's where you'll get the best out of the players. And in the meantime, last footballing, my Garrel, I promise you, with Harry Kane possibly moving to Bar Moodie? I think, but what does that mean that there's even less control for you, of England's captain. How would that work out for you if you went there? No, I mean, I think with the players we've had abroad, we had Jude Bellingham in Dortmund.

And, you know, we had a very good relationship with Borussia Dortmund when Jude was there, for example. So it's such a, we're such a small world now. We can fly and see them. We can go to the training grounds. We know the coaches abroad. Our medical teams connect. So these are top clubs.

and it's easy to have as good a connection with a Real Madrid where Bellingham is now compared to one of our big clubs really. This one here, Matt Gallagher, I've watched the National Theatre. It's a fantastic play called Dear England, which centres on the progress of England, and the Garrette's South Cape. Have you seen this?

No, I've not been. I would find it very difficult to go and watch myself on stage. Well, I don't know. I don't know who plays you in that. We haven't been. Anyway, that's brilliant. It's been lovely talking to you. Thanks for coming.

It's brilliant to get some insight into our other love. We're obviously cricket people in here, but lots of footballers too. So thanks to that. What are you hoping to see us afternoon, apart from Geoffrey Boycott? Well, firstly, thank you for having me. It's a privilege to me. It's taking me back to my childhood. And, no, I mean, if England can continue to bowl as they have

and a couple of the catches can stick, then we'll be in a really strong position, won't we? It's setting up for a brilliant test match again. It's a good brilliant afternoon, I think. Yeah. Gareth, enjoy it. Thank you very much. Thanks for coming to see us.

Thanks, John. And if you want this, I'll knock the fibre off. That's very kind. For 25 quid. I've been in New Yorkshire too long. I'll give you 15. That sounds about that. It just smashed right into the World Trade Center.

It's a big, big explosion of place. People Who Knew Me, a story about lies. You used a terrorist attack to run away from your mess and fake your own death. And love. Are you proposing to me? In the face of death. I'm Paul. I'm six weeks of chemo.

And I have no eyebrows. An original drama for BBC Sounds. Yeah, something's up. Starring Rosamine Pike and Hugh Lorry. Happy Death Anniversary. People Who Knew Me, listen on BBC Sounds.