Test Match Special - View from the Boundary: Jeremy Bowen

Episode Date: September 7, 2019

Long-time BBC Middle East editor and fanatical cricket listener Jeremy Bowen joins Aggers to chat covering upwards of twenty wars across the globe, expecting to die in conflicts, and how following cricket enabled him to escape the gravity of his work.Also up for discussion; how to interview figures like Colonel Gaddafi, and nine months on from his bowel cancer diagnosis, the importance of screening and early diagnosis of the disease.

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Download and subscribe via the BBC Sounds app. It's time for our view from The Boundary. And our guest today, an Emmy award-winning journalist. He's been a familiar face on our screens for more than 25 years, reporting from some of the most dangerous places on Earth covering some of the most traumatic stories of recent decades. He's been the BBC's Middle East editor since 2005 in that time interviewing political figures such as Muammar Gaddafi, Bashar al-Assad,

covering stories such as the War of Syria and the Arab Spring, the Balkans. He's hosted BBC Breakfast Have I Got News for You, many documentaries And he's here with his cameraman Who happens to be an Australian And may involve him later Jeremy Bowen Love her to see you

Agus, it's an honour to be here To be here in your commentary box And looking out at this spectacular view That you've got I know, it's a special ground If you've been to Old Trafford before No, I haven't, this is my first time So thank you for the invitation

No, all the history Jim Laco and his 19 tickets Yeah and I was as a teenager watching the telly I'm no doubt listening to TMS as well. I remember watching Brian Close being whacked about the place by Michael holding in 1976. See, we're the same age, aren't we? So, in fact, I think the same sort of cricketing influences will...

You were a bit more active on the pitch than I was, I think. Well, I have a little bit, but I mean, I remember that. So, I mean, although they've switched the field round, obviously, now... Yeah. He had Michael, who I've just shown you sitting outside eating his lunch. I mean, he looks the most harmless character now, doesn't he? Very amiable-looking guy, yes. Very amiable.

I shall introduce you later. tearing in from, well, the right-hand end now. Do you remember that smooth? Yes, fantastic run-up. A poor old brow. I think it was 45. Yeah, and Edrich was in with him. And they were both, as a 15-year-old looking, no, 16-year-old looking at that.

Of course, I thought these guys were, well, not just my dad's age. They're practically my granddad's age who were out there playing. I know. No helmet. No helmet. I mean... He had a towel looped down over his trousers here, a little towel over his thigh, and off he went. And he didn't...

close didn't rub anything didn't he when he got it under the heart. He was crazy but very lovable in that sort of way was brought. What did you think when you saw that? I mean when he saw bowling like that and you were playing a bit of cricket yourself I imagine at school and so on

what did you think when he saw that? Well my level of cricket was brief and not good but I really enjoyed trying to do it but watching it was I mean it's phenomenal I mean the way you look back on it you think that these guys particularly the fact they had as you say had very little protective

equipment they didn't wear helmets they wouldn't wear a cap I think close didn't even have a cap I don't think you did a huge head for a start not so there's ever a cap big enough of an opera and no I mean but those fast bowlers at that particular time were unbeatable and of course the in that tour the the West Indies batting lineup was extraordinary because you know I was a big Keen England fan and I'd be thinking when they could get one of these guys out and they get one guy out and then who would you know Viv Richards would come strolling in yeah they were

extraordinary I saw I saw the oval test of that it was the first test match I ever saw and who was the man who was our hero talking about Jack Leach of course the day at Heddingley a slightly unlikely looking hero David Steele he was he was a sports personality of the year

wasn't he was with his steel coloured hair wasn't it amazing he just he just captured us He captured the mood of the nation, you know, we're fighting back against these all-conquering people. And he was like something out of Dad's army, really, he did he go out there? It's specks, didn't they?

Yes. Oh, yes, I mean, he looked so unlikely. I don't remember him wiping them much. Not as much as Jack Leach did. No, it's lovely. So how was your cricket then, Jeremy? Well, I was not... Anyone listening to this who knew me at school

would be laughing hilariously at the thought of me even playing it, but I did enjoy it. And at the school I went to, there wasn't a cricket pitch. Here in Wales, yeah, and we had a couple of boggy rugby pitches at the back of the school, and that was it. There was nothing like that. But there was a cricket team, which was mainly boys who were, you know, who played in clubs and that sort of thing. And we did have a second 11, which I represented with great distinction on a few occasions. Doing what?

Oh, whatever they'd let me do, frankly. I mean, I'd have a go at everything, to be honest. Call me in all rounder. But no, I was useless. And I would very much like to have been good. But I never had any real talent in that direction. But it was, you know, something I always enjoyed and it was fun. And later on, when I, you know, was a young journalist in London, one occasion I get invited to take part in cricket matches.

And that was always a good laugh. So, you know, I enjoyed it. was never an accomplished. I did take a few wickets against St. Fagin's Ladies, I remember, on one occasion. I thought it might have been five. Did you? No, I'm sure it wasn't five.

That sounds a bit ruthless, you know? Were you running in Bowling Fast and intimidating? Well, I'd like to think of myself of having a kind of Jeff Thompson kind of action. Did you? Yeah, well, that's what's one of my friends always said. I saw him the other day, actually. I saw some friends. I was down in Cardiff, and we were having a couple of pints in

the local pub that we used to drink in as schoolboys. And he said, oh yeah, he said you had a bit of a Tomo action. Right. You know, slinging it like that. Which you've popped at Tomo then again. That was in 74.5. That area, I remember watching here on the, watching, again, on the TV in 75, 75 tall. Yes.

When, you know, Gooch started play and got a pair. Yeah, yeah, yes. So you've got five against St. Fagin's ladies running in a bowling hut, Jeff Thompson? Well, it might have been more like two. That was probably one of the highlights. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's quite a ruthless spick. But isn't it nice way, actually?

Do you think cricket's a sport where you don't have to be very good? Don't you think? I mean, you can, because so many different things. I mean, you guys are all top-class professionals in this. But you don't have to be, though, do you? You can still love cricket. Oh, yeah, you can.

By scoring it or umpiring. Or we're just sitting here like these fellas. You can, watching it. Eight and a half-a-half-fous people on that stand. They're all with their mates in fancy dress. They've come as all sorts of, Weird and wonderful things. You know, I've tried to interest my kids.

I've got two teenage kids in cricket, and they're just not interested. But, you know, I'm hoping that they will be. At some point, they might get, at the moment, they do not understand why, you know, if I'm on the beach or something like that, I've got my radio or my phone going on my, balancing on my chest, listening to Test Match Special. What do you listen to that for? That's really interesting.

I'm trying to tell them. It's, you know, it's, but it goes on for five days. I said, yes, that's the whole point. Exactly. But what is it that does that for you, then? Why are you such a fanatical listener if you weren't much of a play? What do you think is about the game that does that? Well, it's very absorbing.

It's, you know, it's highly tactical and strategic as well, and there's the element of single combat about it, the bowler against the batsman. It's tough, isn't it? It's a very tough game. And on all sorts of levels, I think it must be to play A five-day match like this mentally must be enormously demanding, never mind the physical side of it. And of course, professional players these days are extremely fit.

Yes. But even so, you know, to get through all of that and to be able to focus in on what they have to do under a lot of pressure, a huge amount of pressure. And there's a lot of money involved now too as well. is on all kinds of levels. I think it's, and there's the history as well. And, you know, I like the way at the World Cup that, you know, because of the historic connections that almost all the cricket playing nations have,

you know, I thought there was a certain family feel about it, I felt, just as an observer. Because our countries, Australians, you see, India, Pakistan, you know, Bangladesh, we have a lot of connections. We do, yes. Going back on some good, some. bad and it's good to meet on the cricket pitch to

get together they normally get a bit angry against England though I seem to find I mean all the history often seems to you know whip up the Indian team and Pakistan team with the Aussie Australians of course but that's fine them but they all do seem to want to beat England because of the historical connection yeah well you can't

you can't blame them and it's a bit different because I like to think of the England team as representing the UK but you know as a Welsh I understand why people want to beat England rugby. You know, you're coming from a very strange position.

We've got another, we've got our engineer nodding through there as well. He's wealth. You know, from... We'll forgive him. For a Welsh rugby fan, getting to the end. You know, as long as we beat England,

really, the season can be completely disastrous. But that's always a redeeming feature. But that's really interesting because when Cardiff first staged its test match, yeah, and we were wondering, oh, well, the Welsh,

how are the Welsh going to come support England. We were all a bit worried about this. But on that last day, the heroics of James Anderson and Montepanassar, there were what, 15, 16,000 I presume mostly Welsh people cheering on England. So in fact, you can do it, Jeremy. You can do it if you have to.

I absolutely support the England cricket team 100%. And, you know, even the England football team I would support them if Wales weren't playing. I'd support them at a World Cup or something like that. I'd like to see them do well. Or Scotland, if they were there, or Ireland, or Ireland. neither whatever but um for me you know as a welshman rugby's different you know England have to lose

yes okay they have to lose all right I mean nothing personal I mean I've I've lived in England longer I lived in Wales yes I've passed very well for an English person but but you know there's a lot of history there so I understand the historical thing it's interesting because England obviously taking what you know in those those Victorian days cricket to go and show one how to behave and how to play with great manners and how to lose gracefully. In fact, they're doing nothing of the sort

of cheating and they were ravaging the countries that they went to and so on. We go, actually, I mean, nothing like you too as well. But, you know, England cricket tours do go to some places in which there is actually quite a deep history and not a good one either. I would love to go on an England cricket tour of the subcontinent.

Why don't you? I'd love to. Well, one day, before. if I'm not working so much. I think that that would be a thing to do. I've always thought it would be absolutely fantastic to go to a test match in Calcutta. Well, in India, I think it's two winters' time.

I can't guarantee you Calcutta, but you can have an Indian experience. And it is fascinating. Fantastic. I'd love to do that. Have you worked over there? I've passed through India yet on more than one occasion, not for a while. I mean, I've been stuck on my Middle East reservation

for quite a long time. You see quite keen for people to stay in their areas. But the area that I work in the Middle East is, you know, it's very extensive. And just getting around it myself is really quite difficult. And loads of other people work there too for the corporation. And it's going through one of its periodic slightly, how can I put it, it's never quiet if you live there.

But in terms of getting on the news, it's not getting on the news all that much of them. Because, of course, we've got so much going on here. the B word that we're not, it's been banned from this which be, what B could that be? We're not going to talk about it. But now come on, you were talking about test cricket and what it does and it's hard and it's, you know, all the fit and the danger. And you were sort of looking

absolutely very intensely about what test cricket does for you. But the job that you do and the things that you've seen, I mean, cricket sports is trivial, isn't it? No. Yeah, the job that I do, I mean, I've been a foreign correspondent for the BBC for about 30 years. I've been in the BBC for 35 years, most of that time, as a foreign

correspondent. I've been to dozens of countries, I mean, 70, 80, maybe 90, I'm not sure. And lots of wars, maybe 20 wars, something like that. I've been in really dangerous situations where I've even been in situations where I've thought, I'm going to die now. There was one time in the war in Chechnya, Grozny in Chechnya, in the winter of 94, 95, and I was in this square where the buildings, half of them were on fire, and we were waiting for somebody or we would have a colleague, otherwise we would have left, and a couple of Russian planes came over and bombed the place, and I found myself curled up, wearing my flag check from my helmet,

that curled up in the snow next to this low wall thinking any second I'm either going to die or I'm going to suffer some appalling injury. I'm lucky I didn't I didn't and but there were some Chechen rebels who I'd been talking to literally three or four minutes earlier who were killed in that particular raid so yeah there's been moments like that and I can tell other loads of other sorts of war stories. But again, I'll go with that point about where does sport fit when you've been and experienced that? Well, because it's another big part, it's a part of life, you know, and just because my job, yes, my job at times over the years has been very intense and it's taken really all my mental energy and that, you know, has been difficult because I've neglected other parts of my life. I feel I shouldn't have, probably.

And sport, though, is something which, it's a relaxation, but it's also, it's another human endeavor. And I've always kept, had a strong interest in other things that have been going on, as well as just, you know, the job that I'm doing in any particular time. But one thing I'd say about being a foreign correspondent, a TV correspondent, working in some nasty place, is that it is very, it's all absorbing, really, it's all encompassing. You work, to get those couple of minutes on the TV,

we say we tend to do quite likely to do longer pieces, but say four and a half minutes is a five minutes is a very long piece on the 10 o'clock news. And to get that, it might take us 10 days of work. You know, often having to drive to terrible places. I mean, I had the last time I was in Syria about it a year ago, actually. I drove around one particular part of the front line with the local Christian Warlord, who was a commander there.

And he was a bit hostile to start with, but then he loosened up. And we went off in his great big four-wheel drive, and there was his clinking going, and I looked down, and next to his Kalashnikov. He was driving, I was in the passenger seat. And in the footwell, where I was, there was his Kalashnikov and a bottle of Johnny Walker. And one of his underlings handed him a... a glass full of ice, proper whiskey glass, and he sloshed it in, and so we drove around his positions. He'd take a sip, and then he passed it to me, and I'd take a sip. So, you know,

we have little moments of diversion in the midst of the madness. Yes. But even mad moments that have a diversion in the middle of the madness. It's, but it, yeah, it's... In the madness, have you found yourself listening to cricket? I mean, with all this going on, have you... I've tried, yes, I have definitely tried to. I mean, I remember being in the in Sri Lanka once and it was it was in the winter it was the time of the tsunami so anyway I was listening to I managed to get the you know the summary at the end of the dead I don't know if it was a podcast in that particular time but I think it was you talking we were in South Africa was yeah you're talking to boycott probably yeah I think so and so is you know

dealing with the tsunami and all the horrible horrible things absolutely I was working with Nick Millard who's sitting just over over there actually yeah and and yet at the same time the cricket was going on and it was you know if you spend an entire day with hundreds and hundreds of dead bodies it's quite nice at the end of the day to switch off a bit and that's kind of the point that I was saying yeah we were in Durban actually and it was on boxing day wasn't it

and I remember it was the start of that test match and people talk about the height of the wave and I was looking at the stand at the far end at Kingsmead and trying to work out the height of this wave how much of us have been in terms of the height of that stand I remember sitting there at the other end I thinking my God that sort of wall of water has

We went to a children's home Right up in the northern part That time was controlled by the Tamil Tigers And there was this children's home It was on the beach And it must have been an idyllic Until the tsunami came And there were these

I remember there was a little girl there Who wouldn't talk to anybody And the reason was They said that there had been another girl smaller who she was very friendly with who she'd been holding onto her and the girl was torn away by the wave and they never saw her again

never got the body and so this poor kid was mute you know the trauma of everything that had happened so you know that was how do you handle something like that when you actually encounter that sort of experience well I've always

I always felt I handled it quite well because you know there have been some I have over the years seen many people at the worst moments of their lives, the last moments of their lives sometimes. And I always felt I dealt with it quite well, but in recent years it's been harder, I'd say. And I don't mind admitting I've had some depression and things like that. Is that as a result of what you've seen?

Do you think of experience? Coming back to haunt you're in a way. Yeah, yeah, in a way, you know, there've been a colleague I was, who I very much valid, who was a friend, I was working with him when he was killed by the Israelis in 2000. They shot a tank shell into the back of his car. I just got out. So, yeah, I mean, I have found that things have caught up with me a bit. But, you know, I've dealt with it and done the things that one needs to do. And so I'm mentally, I feel quite strong actually now, but certainly a couple of years ago, it was all, it all seemed to be a bit too much at times.

Yeah. How does it work? I mean, we see you there. And yes, you do. do often have your flat jacket on and a tin hat. But what gets you to that place? I mean, how are you living for a start? I mean, are you not sort of... Sometimes quite well. Are you? Sometimes really badly.

I mean, at that time, I mentioned to you in Sri Lanka, we were living in the Tamil Taika guest house where I was given a very nice room. I had room in my own. And I was frightened to go into the bathroom because they were living creatures in it. and there was no electricity I had my head torch

and I was thinking when I go into that bathroom what am I going to see because I could hear them rustling around and so and had the word I thought at least

we'll get a good Sri Lankan curry or something it was the most he tried to do Chinese food with chicken legs feet chicken feet oh okay

so no meat just bone so that was yeah so it can be very uncomfortable I've stayed in some of the worst places you can imagine over the years

places where you think that a herd of cattle have occupied the bathroom before you did and that kind of thing. Or in other place. Actually, I mean, do you sleep rough? I've slept in sleeping bags and, yeah, I've slept out and tents and carried and all that sort of stuff.

In other places, you can stay in really comfortable hotels and then get in a car and go to the war zone. That seems like that. We stay in Damascus, in a hotel which is mainly occupied by the UN. and it was a good place to stay because it had excellent security you know sniffer dogs from South Africa that the UN had brought in

to sniff cars to make sure that they weren't car bombs that kind of thing, it's a genuine threat but at the same time it was a comfortable hotel so you know we couldn't complain on that level but then you go out to some you know we went out from there and crossed the front line and went into where the rebels were where people were living in

cellars. I mean, there are some in there are some massive contrasts in areas where things are going on. The first time I was in a war which is El Salvador in 89

I was gobsmacked by the fact that a few streets back from where the front line was there's a lot of fighting going on in the capital. There was a man with a great big cart full of tomatoes who was selling his tomatoes. But then I thought, well,

people have got to eat, people have got to live. He's a, you know, he's a, you know, imagine his tomatoes were ripe. He had to pick them. He had to try and get some money for them. So, you know, life, what I would take away from that is that life goes on. You know, human beings were very, we're incredibly resourceful and resilient people as humans. Can you sort of describe what a war zone actually looks like?

I mean, I wouldn't know what the war zone looks like. Well, they're varied a bit. But if you go to the cities in Syria, where I've spent a lot of time since 2012, there are large areas in, I mean, I've seen some really bad places, but when we went to Aleppo and to the area that was controlled by the rebels, which had been bombed by the Russians, I mean, you could drive for more than a couple of miles and see only wrecked buildings.

And nobody living there anymore. No one, no, no, no humans, no. There are large areas of Syrian cities where nobody lives, which are still wrecked. There are all kinds of complicated reasons. A lot of them haven't been done up. So, yeah, there's rubble, and people sometimes are living in the rubble, or people are living in cellars. And, you know, struggling with water, struggling with food, worried if their kids go out. You know, awful stories.

Why did you want to go to these places in the first place? Why did you want to become a war correspondent? I didn't read. I wanted to be a foreign correspondent. It just worked out that I went to a lot of wars, and I've been to a lot of wars. I think to start with, I mean, I'm talking about when I was back in my 20s. It was a way of slightly trying to put my head above the crowd of my contemporaries to try to show that I could do stuff. And then as time went by, I found myself working a lot in the Middle East.

And the Middle East is a troubled place. And I've had times where I haven't wanted to go to anywhere dangerous there. But, you know, as a reporter, you have to. to take a look yourself otherwise it's not credible I think you can't do it through a computer screen you can't cover a war from home as it was sadly not no at least not effectively

not truthfully so you've got to go there and I think that I was curious actually also about it because you know war is a big part of a lot of people's lives and we've been very lucky in this country for a long time now that it has been part of our lives

and that people are actually in the army or the armed services. But for many people around the world, being caught up in these terrible catastrophes, it's a big part of their lives. So I think as a, you know, reporters are curious, and I wanted to find out to see what that was like. Does the experience of war teach you something?

I mean, I say you'd look at life in a different way. Yes, I'm very conscious that life, our hold on life is quite tenuous. You know, I think that it doesn't take much to extinguish a life, which I've seen myself. So I do think that, I mean, like everybody else, you get caught up in the difficulties and vagaries of the day. But actually, life is pretty fantastic. And sometimes we don't appreciate it quite as much as we probably ought to. Well, these people you've interviewed, like Colonel Gaddafi, Bashar al-Hasad, I mean, there are people who you think, oh, my world.

word. You know, bad people you're inclined to think. What were they like when you actually met them? Well, those two, Gaddafi and Assad, are very different, a big contrast because Assad is incredibly polite. You know, he's the sort of man who will break his back to try and make sure you go through a door before him. After you, after you, after you. And, you know, you come into a room, they usher you in. He's already standing up, advancing from the sofa. please sit down and whereas Gaddafi came in and you know he was like the the caricature of Gaddafi I thought this is the man I've been watching people impersonate for 25 years you know where he had the the aviator shades he had some kind of ochre headdress on some

large robes and he came in and was looking around and waving and you know that was a man who had where he took power in Libya in his late 20s in the 60s and ever since then most wherever he'd gone people would cheer and wave and hoot and chant his name and I think after a while he started believing it he couldn't believe that people were demonstrating against him even though of course his regime had been horrendously oppressive and violent at times so but he could not believe that people were out to get him. Well, of course, they were. There's a lot of awful lot of them wanted him out. Though, of course, what they've been left with is something many people would argue is much worse. They're charismatic people. Yes. Well, Gaddafi certainly,

you can see the charisma of the man. I mean, by the time I did that interview, which was the last big interview he did before he was killed, you know, he was old and looked like he'd been, had some plastic surgery that hadn't gone particularly well on his face and things like that. But you could see when he was young and looking how he must have been quite charismatic. Asad is different. I don't think his worst enemy would call him charismatic. He's inherited the family business because his father was the president before him. But I think that because he doesn't seem that charismatic, people tend to underestimate him.

I think he's been very much at the forefront of the fight to preserve his regime and everything that's gone with that, even though some people have said, well, it must be people, you know, his father's friends or his villainous brother, quote unquote, or something like that. But no, I think Assad is somebody who is well aware of what's been going on in his country and I think has considered it necessary in order to preserve the regime that his father created starting in 1970. And as the man asking the questions of men like that, who are dangerous, let's be honest, and who people obviously are inclined to believe on particularly nice.

How do you ask the questions of these people without appearing that you're obsequious? You've got to ask tough questions. Before the interview with Assad that I did, and I'd done them a couple of times before the war, but this was the first interview we'd done since the war had started, so it was a big deal. And so I was feeling some tension, though.

We had to get it right. We had to do it as live as well, so it was going to be 23 minutes and I had to get everything in and I said to him in advance I said Mr. President I'm going to ask you some tough questions now I'm not personally insulting you

but I will ask you all the tough questions that I can he said ask away I don't mind I don't mind also with Gaddafi you've got to you've got to be seen to be asking the tough questions and ask them to try to find things out because if you don't

well there's no point being there No. There really isn't. Even if you're worried about you, if you upset him, that the interview might not ever actually get ed. I never occurred to me for one second that they would get upset. They, they'd, you know, I would upset them and get chucked into jail. The kind of people who chucked you into jail,

I know that because this has happened to me, are the sort of horrible people you meet at roadblocks in the middle of the night. Yeah, sure. Who, you know, who, and you can't get through to them, just, you know, that you're not there to hurt them and you're a journalist. And so, yeah, I've been one of the records that you have, one of the things that happened to journalists in my line of work

is I've been arrested many times. You know, if people say, have you ever been in trouble with the police? I can't just, you know, I say, well, yeah, a few times. You know, because I have been, in Algeria, I remember being held in a police station only for a day or so, half a day, but I could hear people being beaten up in the cells near me shouting and wailing and and they were doing that to pass a little lesson onto me and once they were this guy with a leather jacket with a submachine gun inside it said as

I was leaving he poked me in the chest and he said in French he said listen mate he said this is the first time you hear and it's going to be the last time isn't it now go I said okay I'm off. Yeah, so you do meet horrible people who do want to do you some harm, but they tend not to be the leaders of the country. And if they wanted to hurt you, they'd get someone else to do it two months later. Henschman to do it. Yeah, yeah. Well, Jeremy, I mean, you've had an extraordinary time, and here you are now, looking, looking well, I mean, obviously, the bowel cancer you've talked about at some like that. I mean, I was diagnosed 11 months ago. Right. How are you getting on?

Well, I had surgery. I was in hospital for a month, which was really unpleasant because the operation went wrong after I had it. Then I had, they said I needed three months of chemo. Then they said I needed six months of chemo. So I finished the chemotherapy at the beginning of the summer, about July. And so I'd be trying to get over it, basically, because the first few months were fine. But the last couple of months took it out of me. You know, it was all the things you know about. I wasn't sick or anything but I got very tired, got nerve damage in my hands and my feet. My feet swell up. I'm master to my feet now. And that sort of thing. So, you know, I'm optimistic though. And, you know, what I've been trying to say, and I agreed to sort of come out

as a cancer patient because I really believe that it's important people to get tested. And if they have any particularly people of our age or even even dare say younger yeah you know if you get anything wrong the classic symptoms of bowel cancer they're all out there on um websites but a lot of them involve poo and people are a bit embarrassed about talking about you know we all do it for absolutely uh but if if if it's not working the way it's always worked go to the doctor and try and find out why and you know might be nothing but it could be something serious and the point is So if they get bowel cancer early, they can cure you of it. And so that's worth getting over a bit of embarrassment about poop.

It is. I think I read somewhere that you didn't have the classic symptoms. I had none of the classic symptoms. So presumably when you went for your test, you actually were quite confident you're going to be all right. I'd imagine. Well, I thought I should get a test. So I went to the, and I had some stomach pains, but they weren't the familiar bowel cancer symptoms. and yeah, well I thought I'd be fine actually

but mind you there was some family history so that's why I wanted to go and have a test So when you're told actually you're not fine And given the extraordinary life experiences You've had I mean how did you handle that? Actually I didn't have a moment Which you see on TV shows

Where you go into the doctor's office And the doctor says I've got some bad news for you Mr Boeing You sit down Nothing like that You didn't have that No, no, nothing like that. We did with Emma.

We got sat down and told. Oh, you see, nothing like that, because I found out about it when I was having, they were giving me a test of the colonoscopy where they put a camera on a pipe up your backside. And I was lying there, you know, drugged half out of my mind, but I could hear the two doctors talking. And one said to the other one pointing at the screen at this some sort of lump, he said, that looks like cancer to me. And the other guy said, yep, I think that's cancer.

That's how I found out. But I was so. I'm not sure if that's better or worse. I'm not sure I was so off my face on opioids at the time that I just thought, oh, that's interesting, that's interesting. I wonder why they think that's cancer. So, and then initially they didn't think it was too serious, but then I had some more tests and it turned out to be a little bit more serious than they had thought,

but not so serious that I can't get cured. So I'm feeling, I'd be feeling pretty optimistic about it. I've had my moments when I haven't, but most of the time I feel very optimistic about it, nice soon. I hope I'll be able to go back to work. Brilliant. How do we get over the fact that, oh, I'll wait till next week to go to the doctor or, oh, I'll be all right. I'm not going to go to the doctor. Because we all do it. Yeah, we do. How do, what is the message to, you know, to get people to go? I think the message is one of, actually, it's survival. If you want to see your kids grow up and go on that holiday, you've always promised yourself and go to

the test match at Old Trafford, you need to be alive. And if there is something that isn't right, it could kill you. But if you go to the doctor, the doctor could cure you. So if you think about it in those terms, and if there's a bit of embarrassment, you know, the whole embarrassing thing, oh my God, I'm going to have to take down my trousers. Yes. You know, I don't want to have to put some poo into a test tube to take it away to get it, you know, sampled by the lab. And they've improving all those tests. Now they're rolling out new things. which makes it much, much easier to do the test. And so I think you've got to, you've just got to prioritise.

Don't put it off. Because you might end up regretting it. We're 60 next year. What are you going to do? Oh, God. Dig a big hole and lie in it. No, you're not. I don't know. What are you going to do? Have you thought about it yet?

It's kind of in the background. Only in a bad way. Six, I can't imagine. Where did the years go, I guess? I don't know. Where did they go? I don't know. We lost them somewhere.

I know, I know. But we've both done. You've done good things. You've had a very busy and successful life. How do you feel about hitting 60? I don't know yet. I'm still pushing it. I'm just pushing it away at the moment.

Yeah, I pushed it away when I hit 50 too. Mind you, that old thing over there is 80 next year. Blimey. Jeffrey Boycott. But look at him. He's in great shape. He's 80. That's even worse.

He's in great shape, though. Jeremy, thanks for coming. It's a pleasure. Really, really, great honour. Thank you so much for coming. The TMS podcast at the Ashes. Download and subscribe via the BBC Sounds app. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.