Test Match Special - View from the Boundary: Red Roses World Cup winner Sarah Bern.

Episode Date: July 17, 2026

Alison Mitchell is joined at Lord’s by World Cup winning Rugby player Sarah Bern. The tighthead prop was part of the Red Roses team that triumphed at Twickenham last summer.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism?

Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. We have a very special view from the boundary, which is quite apt for this being an historic test here because we have a guest who knows just what it is like to perform at the very highest level at iconic venues.

And we're delighted to welcome a member of the All-Conquering Red Roses, the England Women's Rugby team, who lifted the World Cup at Twickenham last summer. Sarah Byrne is a tighthead prop who debuted for England back in 2016, scoring a vital try in their semi-final win against France. She then played a crucial role when England lifted that trophy on an unforgettable day in September, beating Canada in front of a record-breaking crowd of nearly 82,000. Sarah, welcome to Test Match specials. Great to see you.

Thank you for having me. You've got a shirt there. That's not a rugby shirt, though, I noticed. No, it's not. It's definitely a lot thin of material. We just did an amazing pitch swap, sorry, on the pitch, is it called a pitch? You got the pitch, the outfield, yes. And it was just absolutely fabulous, like I'm having the most amazing day.

And I've never actually been to a cricket game before, live. And it's something that I'm really, really thoroughly enjoying. And I'm already trying to get back to another one. So yeah, it's been a brilliant day so far. You've got the white England test shirt there. So it carries real significance, but you're used to the phrase, tests, because you play tests. That's the right terminology in rugby as well, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, it is. I think I'm having a little bit of a terminology. I called it a stadium, I called it a pitch, or going out the window. You're very welcome to be here. And we're loving the crossover between rugby and cricket. I mean, what you achieved at Twickenham was so, so special. In the England women fell short in a World Cup final of their own here just a few days ago.

We following that? We were following. We also gave our support and I think it's incredible, I don't know, from a rugby perspective, that, you know, they were playing in a World Cup and I know it's a different version of the game. And they didn't quite make it. And then, you know, a few days later, they're now playing incredibly hard Test Match against one of the best teams in the world. So hats off to the women playing in this game today because, and that also participated in their World Cup because that's a massive mental, you know, huge mental barrier that they've had to get over. and come back out and perform. So incredible mental strength there from them. How long did you get after your World Cup final win to celebrate and soak it all up?

We had a week off and then another week kind of integrating back in and then we were back into our premiership club. So it's a quick turnaround but definitely longer than a few days. So you've obviously Twickenham is like your second home. What do you make to Lords then if this is your first visit here? What have your impressions been? Oh, it's gorgeous. Like just I love all the different stands

and how they're all slightly different and the media space that we're in now is incredibly, it's huge. It's what an amazing element, sorry, sight of the pitch you have. So yeah, I don't have any complaints so far. What about playing cricket? Have you ever picked up a bat? What's your... When I was younger, I played not at an incredibly high level.

I loved it and then rugby became all consuming. So I kind of left it there, but I think, I don't know if I have the accuracy with the bat in my hand. I think I might stick to, you know, ball in hand is where I'm strongest. When did you first pick up a rugby ball? I picked up a rugby ball when I was 10 years old. In what context? Was that school or club or at home?

My cousin, we're very close in age. My uncle brought me down to a rugby club. He was playing. And my uncle said, oh, I think you'll be really good at this. Like, I was very athletic. I did all different types of sports. And the coach there, he held up a rugby pad and he said, run at me as hard as you can. And I said, okay.

And I think because I was a girl, I think he didn't think I'd run very hard. And I ran as hard as I could. And the poor fellow, like, fell over, did a backwards role and stood up and was like, yeah, you'll be good at rugby. and that's kind of how I found it. I love it. You play for Bristol Bears now. So is that round Gloucestershire where you grew up?

I actually grew up in London. And then when I was 16, I went to Hartbury College. I played rugby there at college level and through the under 20s path, England and 20th pathway. And that's kind of how I've stayed in the southwest ever since. A lot more trees. Very green, very green. Rugby, you know, looking at the two sports, rugby and cricket, it strikes me.

You know, cricket, you have the bowling and the batting green. groups, quite sort of distinctive skills. In rugby, you've got your forwards and your backs, different skillsets, different physicalities as well. Do you see those sort of parallels with two sports that are team sports, but there's real individual roles and groupings within them? Yeah, definitely.

I was just actually having a conversation with someone who sat next to me saying that it's so amazing that you have a sport that's built up, especially in cricket, of so many intricate little details and people have their own roles and their own skills, but when you come together, you're all trying to achieve that goal. And it's fairly similar in rugby, although be it different tactics. It's the same thing you have your front row forward to, you know, you need to win the scrum in order so that wingers can score the score on the edges. And it's, yeah, very, very, very similar in that regard.

Are the wingers the ones that take all the glory? You know, like bowlers would say, we do the grunt work and the batters get all, you know, we'll score the hundred because the bowlers take the wickets, but you know, you're similar. A hundred percent. You do the hard work and the hard work. And the wingers, they get to look pretty and score the tries. But without them, we might not be, you know, world champions. Everyone has a role and everyone is brilliant at executing it.

That World Cup was such a wave across the country. Did you feel that building? Did you feel the public getting behind you in that way? Yeah, 100%. I think that's what made the World Cup so special for all of us because rugby in a World Cup, you know, rugby is rugby. It's going to be amazing because you're playing in a World Cup. There's an amazing opportunity.

But actually compared to the other two World Cups that I've been a part of, of the energy and the excitement of people just wanting to come to the games, not even just the Red Roses games, but we sold out the stadium for some New Zealand games, for some of the Ireland games. And it's been, it was just incredible to walk around the grounds and people go, oh, hello, like, can I have a picture with you? And from all different nations, not just the Red Roses and other teams, you know, mentioning that saying, I can't believe how incredible our fans are and that they just turn up because they love the sport. And even if they

don't love the sport, they just want to be a part of the day. That definitely, definitely drove us, you know, drove us to hope, you know, well I say hopefully, but to get the trophy. And that day when we had 82,000 people there, like nothing will ever compete with that feeling of lifting a trophy with a whole full stadium at Allianz. It was just incredible. And have you felt that translates into rugby post the World Cup as well? It's crucially, it's sort of about that legacy, isn't it, not being a one-off occasion, but maintaining that kind of interest? Yeah, I think the interest in women's rugby, particularly at the international level, has just kind of exploded throughout our Six Nations.

You had Island getting record crowd. You had Scotland playing in Murrayfield, which is an iconic stadium and having a record crowd for them. As well as England playing Island. Allianz, we again got the biggest record for a standalone Six Nations games ever. So records being broken all over the place. People, you know, engaging with us online

in the stadiums at clubs. It's just really gone through the roof. And even to the point, I was in being Q the other day and doing some work on my house and I was covered in paint my hair wasn't brushed and I thought this is fine no one will no one will know who I am and and I was a bit shocked to find someone sneak up and say why aren't you in your club colours and I was like oh please don't ask for a picture I look really bad right now price of fame so it's been incredible and definitely a bit of a whirlwind and something that we're all getting used to but you know we wouldn't take it back

at all you know our fans mean everything to us and without them you know we wouldn't have have jobs and be able to be professional rugby players. So it's incredible that, you know, they love us so much and they support us how they do. I want to come to the professional side of it again in a moment, but also when in terms of that sense of being recognised much more now, I get the sense that you're really embracing that and particularly from your social media because you're very into body positivity, aren't you? And tell us what your message is to girls, women, who might want to play sport and might not feel so confident in their own body. I would say, 100% give it a try. Try not to let the voices in your head which can be unkind for many women

halt you from something you really want to do. We really have one life and if we spend so much time battling the tough thoughts in our head or trying to shrink ourselves to fit in because someone else has said something probably not very nice. It's going to be a you know you're not going to be able to reach one your full potential and you're not going to enjoy it as much and It's honestly very, very freeing when you put that all to aside and you just believe in you, you trust yourself. And I don't want to say love yourself, but you probably learn to, you know, sit with yourself and ask yourself questions, what do I want to do? Do I want to be happy and fun and go for it? Because we can all do that.

It just takes a very brave step to kind of recognise what's holding you back and, you know, stop trying to fit into this idea of perfection that we all have. and it will be different for many people. And I always say it baffles me. I had my issues with body positivity. I was always very broad growing up. My sisters were in ballet and dance, and I did not fit in that area at all because of the way I looked.

And I felt like I wasn't right or I wasn't correct. And actually, I found rugby, and I was celebrated because I was strong. I was powerful. I was fast. And actually, there's so many areas of the world where if I never tried rugby, I wouldn't be who I am today.

and I would have probably still had a lot of issues with how I perceived myself. So go out and do it and remember the most beautiful of things in the world, seven wonders of the world are beautiful because they are unique. So don't try and make yourself smaller. And rugby is such a particular sport that it requires different body builds, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. You know, I wouldn't be able to have the life I live and be a professional rugby player and be a world champion.

if I wasn't broadshouldered, strong, heavy, I wouldn't be able to do my job in the scrum. And if that's vital for my team, for me to be the best at my game at that element of our rugby game for, you know, like we say, the wing is to score or they're sent us to do some amazing tricks out the back. And everyone has their own piece of the puzzle that they need to be excellent at.

And that, for me, is what I need to be good at. And I'm not going to limit my rugby potential or where I could push myself and my body too, because I don't necessarily fit into norms that society pushes on us. And I think we should really celebrate individuality. How is your training as a prop different to how a winger would train, like fitness, strength work? Potent, I would say yes.

Maybe not so much in the men's game, because they all have to be very fast fit. I guess the only differences is more than rugby-specific stuff. Generally your front five forwards are your really strong players, so they're in the gym, they're lifting the heaviest weights. And your back five, your back three players are your quickest. So a lot of speed work, a lot of running around. So the breakdown is more that we do a lot of the heavy lifting. Scrum, line out work, it's not very fun.

You come and watch it, you probably think, why would anyone want to do that? But if you looked out the window and you saw the backs kicking the balls around, you'd probably be like, I think I want to go over there. But one can't happen without the other. Exactly. And you know, everyone enjoys their own elements. So yeah, there's slight elements of training, but generally we train very similar altogether. Your profile as well, has it helped you to forge a streetwear brand. Oh, yes. Yeah. You enjoy your fashion and... I love fashion. That is something that I've always loved. Again, like leaning into yourself and expressing yourself is something, you know, I'm advocate for. But we started a brand because we decided that we wanted to make rugby cool and mainstream.

And at the time we didn't think that there was many brands or companies putting merchandise out that kind of aligned the two together. And we wanted to make something that was a little bit, you know, tongue and cheek, you know, create a bit more of an interest. Maybe not from a rugby perspective, but from a, hey, I want to know more about that. That's quite interesting. That's a little bit different. So we went ahead and did that. And there's four of us, myself, Emma Swords, Zoe Harrison, Jess Breach. And we're all figuring out together, trying to figure out business. We're not quite there, yeah.

But, you know, we're trying. And that's the most important thing is to, you know, put yourself out there and give it a go. What's your favourite style when you're not in rugby kit? Oh, I'm, so tricky. I am actually in my partner's outfit today, and she gets really mad if I don't tell everyone. This is Mackenzie Carson. Yes, yeah. Fellow World Cup winner.

She is also a little fashion Easter as well. For me, you'll probably find me in a pair of jorts, though. which isn't really in Lord's attire. So relax the dress code a bit today. You'll be right outside of the pavilion, no dress code there. I love anything that's a little bit different, a little bit intriguing and probably a little bit out there. What about retro fashion? If you could bring anything back from, you know, a decade yesterday year. Oh, I do love Adidas, you know, like the zip ups or like the classic Adidas trainers.

Like I think they're already back but I would keep them. I'd keep them there. Yeah. Have them back again. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Your England coach, John Mitchell, are you aware of his cricket connection? Yes, his son, Darrell. He's, we call him Mitch.

Mitch talks about it a lot, actually. I think he finds his son very inspirational and learns a lot from him as well and how he, you know, has at the peak of his performance. You know, obviously John Mitchell was an incredible rugby player as well and he's done a lot of amazing stuff in the coaching world. So he's, you know, got a whole family of high performers. So, yeah, he's very, very proud of him. He raves about him all the time.

Do you get a sense that he sort of got half an eye on, like, cricket scores when you're in the training camps? I mean, if you've met John, you know, he's incredibly invested and probably quite tunnel vision on what he wants to achieve at that time. But he's definitely watching his son, like making sure that, you know, he's doing well and he's supporting him. and I actually just message him. I said, oh, I'm at Lords and some of the people I'm with just said how amazing your son is and he just went, that's very kind of them.

His son did very well at the test match at Trent Bridge and got it got another 100. He seems to like batting against England and tell you that. And after the World Cup, I mean, you reached such a high in your career. How do you sort of get yourselves back up for what comes next? Because the next international is a September, that right? Yeah. And that's Australia? Yes. Australia, Canada, New Zealand. at Allianz and then we fly to Toronto and we play Canada Canada USA so quite a lot of

hard games in quite a short space of time is it about sort of you know resetting goals yeah I think that's what's incredible about the Red Roses is that they are looking for perfection which is a double-edged short because it's not attainable however it can you know really drive you to be the best you can be and we always think about actually We talk about, you know, sometimes you don't be afraid to break something that works to reinvent it. And that's what we're going through the process now is we are incredibly proud of ourselves as a team and for winning the World Cup. We worked very, very hard on it. But we also want to be the best team ever.

And that's not just as a team and as a squad or driven by John. That's driven by all of us individually. We all are battling to be the best players that we can be. collectively and you know and healthy healthy competition within the team we're very fortunate we've got brilliant players in all positions all battling it out which you know it's a headache for Mitch for sure but that's what we're striving for is to be not just winner world but to be one of the best teams in the world in any sport has there been much crossover between yourselves the lionesses and the England team even we've done a shirt swap today

But do you, I mean, there's their time to kind of come across each other? Do you sometimes bump into each other at different events or are they formal coming together at any way to have learnings from each other? Probably a mixture of all of them. We've definitely seen a fair bit of the lionesses. You know, Chloe Kelly came to our game. So it was really cool to meet her. We met a lot of them at Spotty as well. Lucy Bronze was there at our coming home event. Ellie Kildon only just missed out, didn't she? I know, I know. And I've absolutely fair play to her because, like you say, rugby's not, women's rugby is growing.

It's not hugely global yet, but we're hoping to take it there and she did so well to get anywhere, you know, near it. So we're all very proud of her for that. But yeah, we do bump into other players, other sports. And I think women's sport is incredible because you're just all happy that you're all thriving. I think that's what you just really want the best for each other. each other. And so whenever you meet anyone in the women's sporting world, and I don't know, that's just my experience. I'm not a man, so I've been in the male sporting world, but there's just so much happiness just to see each other and connect and say, hey, you're doing so well.

And that's, yeah, I think that's a really special part of women's sport that maybe isn't seen or spoken about as much. And how does rugby's pathway and development compare to how cricket has developed in terms of the professionalism? So where are you at right now? You've all, as a You have an RFU contract, don't you? How does it work? So if you're international, realistically, if you are an international player, you can be contracted through your union. But right now in the PWR, which is a great league, they're trying, you know, incredibly hard to make the league professional, but there's obviously steps we have to try and push through. Audiences, we need to try and get in the doors. You would be probably only paid if you were an international or you were, you know, a very, you know, a very, you know, a very, you're in the doors.

you know a very important club player. Other than that, most of our league in the domestic league, they are nurses, doctors, teachers, vets, like all sorts of different, you know, they're coaches, they're work in the communities, all different types of jobs. So there's still very much full-time and, you know, I hope very soon that that changes because

as our rugby game moves on and professionalises, the demand will just become too high for those players. but I know there's people behind the scenes working so hard to make sure that we can keep moving and pushing forward in the league. So yeah, we're very lucky that RIFU support the Red Roses very well, one of the best in the world at looking after their women's teams. And you can see that it works through the investment because we're selling out stadiums now. And we just hope that other unions see that and look at it as something that they can mould and shape into something of their own and help support other women coming through in rugby and help giving them, you know, roles to really reach their dreams and invest in them.

And the World Cup win has helped, hasn't it, given a sort of boost to what your contract value can be going forward? That's got to be part of it, hasn't it? You win things, you get rewarded. Yeah. Yeah, we went through our contract negotiations and, yeah, there's definitely been an increase around that. So, yeah, hopefully we can just keep pushing it forward.

and our real goal is to try and close that gender gap. And I think that's the real goal of all women's sport is to close the gender gap in sport. So yeah, I think we'll definitely keep trying until we can make that hopefully smaller for the next generation coming through. And do you get a sense that things are moving in the direction of? Is there a plan even to try and make that base foundation,

that triangle with professionalism in the domestic league? So in cricket now, it's a five-minute bell, that's coming around very quickly. In cricket now, you've got the, England's central contracts and there's tier one of domestic where you've got nine teams who are all fully professional domestic players now. Do you think rugby will get there in the next, I don't know how long a time frame? I really hope so because that's incredible and I think, you know, the girls that we work in and work with is day in and day out or women, sorry, I use girls because I see them all the time, you know, that we work with who turn up every week. They might not get selected to play,

but they, you know, without them we wouldn't train and we wouldn't function and teams. wouldn't win without the whole squad. That's what a team is for. And I hope that they do have the ability in the future to be full-time and, you know, reach their dreams as well because I do really believe now that we're at a point where they definitely deserve it. And we have the audiences coming in. And it's just how can we increase that and, you know, take women's rugby to a whole new level.

At that top level where you have got the contract, maternity clauses are an important part of it, aren't they? Because how many babies have there been now in the England? they have hundreds. What a beautiful development. How do they get supported then? I mean I'm I'm not one of them so I can't talk from from their their views but from what I see you know they get a lot of care from the medical team. They train you know they have a training program right up until they do pretty much their due date. I'm pretty sure I saw Lark training like a few like a week before she had to had to before she had a child sorry and and

Yeah, I think then they get very much supported on the way back. And it's just amazing that not only they have the ability, you know, financially, and that's within their terms of the contract, but actually that they have the bravery to go and do it and show people that they can, you can have a child and you can be an elite athlete and you can have people support you. And I think they're just brilliant. All every single, you know, every single pregnant lady in the women's rugby team, I'd be here for hours if I'd name them all.

But yeah, I just think they're exceptional. role models and yeah, hats off to them. I don't know whether you saw images of the World Cup final here last Sunday when obviously the players come out with a mascot and England Captain Natseva Brunt came out carrying her own baby Theo. It felt like quite quite a moment. I feel like that's every sports person's dream is to come out with, you know, your child and just stand there. I definitely think that that's one of mine to have, you know, your child see you in probably the pinnacle of your career and yeah, it's very very very very.

very special and we always have the little kids running around camp and it just makes everyone so much happier. Because you have someone to just take you out of that zone of you're in rugby, you're trying to succeed, you're trying to be the best you can be. You just have this little kid running around be like, can you throw the ball with me? And you're like, takes you, gives you a moment of air. Just needs you, doesn't care how you performed on the pitch whatsoever. What about the past players in rugby? I'll ask you briefly because we've had such an occasion here celebrating yesterday, former England players who really weren't heralded in their time. Has the RFU done much similar? Is there much awareness around the history of women's rugby,

amongst those who are playing it? I think it's vital to have the history shared with the players. I think potentially in the past, it's not something that they focus on, but definitely through the World Cup, they had events where we had past, present, roses come in, talk to us, talk about their World Cup journey in 94. I don't want to get that wrong, but I feel like Jill Burns will come and tell me off if I get it wrong.

But yeah, it's just an incredible story of how they've had nothing, they had no support, and they created this whole World Cup basically off their own backs. Parallels with cricket, absolutely. I think it's vital we remember where we came from to where we are now. And without those trailblazers, like they truly are trailblazers. Like we wouldn't, we wouldn't be stood here today. So I think in the World Cup we had a whole row of roses in central London, which had everyone's red rose number on it.

And we also, in the linings of our World Cup jackets, we had every single red rose was in the lining of our jacket, which I'm not sure I've got shared too much, but yeah, it's there. So that's very safe in my house because I think it's very, very, very well, I was about to say, where do you get your jacket? Were your winners medal? The winners medal is actually my bedside draw

because I just like to check it still there. I like it. It's nice and close to it. So it's an absolute pleasure having you in the TMS Boxers are of you from the boundary. the players are coming back out now. Are you going to watch, stay around and watch the rest of the day? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, definitely going to be out watching. Look, good luck for when your season resumes in September. And shakes, very formal, very formal.

Sarah Byrne, Red Rose, World Cup winner. Thanks for being our view from The Boundary. Thank you so much for having me. Absolute pleasure. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. Five Live Sports. So here's the first ball of this series. All the cricket unit. lives on BBC Sounds.

Smash straight back down the ground, this girl. Here ball by ball coverage of the biggest competitions on the domestic and international circuits. It's a fourth weekend, and it's the huge one. Chees, horse. Settle down, it up for so long. Cricket on Five Live Sport. Oh, I've lived in every ball of this.

Listen on BBC Sound. Five Lights Sports. My favourite World Cup moment? It's the first World Cup I properly remember watching. Argentina 78. The ticker tape, Mario Kempes, Ari Hahn's scoring goals from miles out, and always one of my favourite World Cup moments,

Archie Gemmell's great goal for Scotland against the Dutch. What makes the World Cup such a special tournament is the atmosphere, the colour, it is a meeting of the nations, and of people who love football. The People World Cup 2026. Listen on BBC Sounds. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos?

On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr. Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire.

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