Test Match Special - View from the Boundary: Richard Moore

Episode Date: June 6, 2026

Jonathan Agnew speaks to former Chief of MI6 Richard Moore. They discuss some of the secrets and myths around MI6, his substitute appearance for Oxford University, and some of the decisions he had to make whilst Chief at MI6.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Our guest is a civil servant, a diplomat, who until last year held one of the most fascinating positions. He's been an ambassador to Turkey. He worked at the Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office. But he's spent time as a British intelligence officer. Do we call them a spy, I wonder? I think that's okay. Is that okay? Excellent. I have a past master, Jonathan. Who's just finished a five-year spell as chief of the Secret Intelligence Service. otherwise known as MI6.

Richard Moore. It's lovely to meet you. It's been in the pipeline this for a while. It has. I've just been explaining to you, haven't I, off air, that we had a cake baked for you in the shape of Oxal Cross, you know, green and sand-coloured icing, all done by a brilliant colleague in what is our sort of equivalent of Q Labs, where we make some other ones like that category. So there is Q?

There is. I was going to. Well, then it explode or something. And it's been eaten twice by the Crisis Operations Room. Yeah, so I'm sorry about that. Well, I'm reassured that there is at least an existence of Q. There absolutely is. In fact, Q, the wonderful Blaise Metro Valley, who was Q, the head of all our technologies,

was my successor as C, so she became, she moved from being Q to being C. Yes, strange. Is that unprecedented, I wonder? Has that happened before? And I also didn't realize, I assumed that you sort of your, because yes, you were C, weren't you? Not like the sort of the tropical storms that come through and you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, So the next is D or E or whatever.

So you're always C, which is M in James Bond. Exactly. Well, look, more of that in a minute. We're talking cricket first, because that's why you're here. And first time, it's not your first time to Lord, does it? I mean, you're a regular visitor here. I may betray that by the tie I'm wearing, so yes. Yes, I remember.

Well, observed. Yes. But, yeah, no. I feel you're analysing me, Richard. Can we just be very careful here? I'll be very, very careful. Yeah, no, I've loved cricket ever since. since being a kid.

And my first introduction to international cricket was in Sri Lanka because my parents were in the days before I guess Sri Lanka, Sri Lanka don't just stop being called Salon. I mean it was before it became a test side. But the MCC sent down a side there. I think Jeffrey Boycott was in it. It's a sound about it on the way to Australia probably.

Well it was no it was it was an odd one because it was a diversion. It was an overly strong side because they were supposed to go to South Africa. And then because of, apartheid, you know, they were diverted and they went to Sri Lanka and then they went on bizarrely to Pakistan, pre-Bangladesh Pakistan. So I think they had quite a torrid time. That was when the riots were on, the students of rioting and so on. Good Lord.

So why were you, your dad was in the service? My dad was there, yeah, my dad was there. He was made cricket attach for the visit of the MCC. And as a little boy, I must have been five or six at the time. Yeah, that was a real thrill. It was great. Yeah. What do you, so, if Jeffrey was there, what, what, what, what, What's your memory of your first real memory of those cricketers coming then? Well, Geoffrey, I looked at, of course, inevitably when I knew I was coming on, I went and looked at Wisden. And Jeffrey got a second ball duck.

Excellent. And seven in the second end. And they had a, the MCC had a first inning's deficit. And to give you an idea, this wasn't Basball. The Sri Lanka cricketer, which I call Tenekoon, got 100 and 101 overs. I thought I can say balls. No, no. Oh dear.

And so, was he, what, was he high commissioner? No, he wasn't. He was relatively junior official doing management. And he was a real different man before. I can see the look almost in your eye. But he was a proper diplomat, he wasn't there. Yeah, because we do, we still do occasionally. Part of a tour is to go along to the high commissioners.

And it's, it's a part of the tour. Absolutely. It's wonderful, actually. I did a posting in Pakistan in the 90s, so the England teams came through at the time. Yes. Well, these am I bad, high commissioners is a wonderful place. It's a rare event, isn't it? Yeah, it's a bar.

Quite a refuge, actually. Real sausages. With alcohol. Yes, yes, it is. No, that's fantastic. So Pakistan, that was being quite tricky in the 90s. Yeah, it was before 9-11, so it hadn't become as sort of, you know, the terrorism issues that were not as bad. It was still pretty fraught.

I mean, there was a bomb went off just a few weeks after we got there, which damaged bits of the British compound. So, yeah, it was there. But you were, unlike post-9-11, it wasn't a lockdown. You could travel around, so, you know, I went all over the country. And I watched a bit of cricket, and it was, of course, the 96 World Cup. Yes, of course. The final in Lahore.

Final in Lahore. Yes, we were there, of course. Yes. Great game of cricket, actually. It was a great game. And Jayasurio was sort of bursting onto the scene, was. Yes, and Ranatunga was very cunning and chose to bowl first, knowing that Shane Warren couldn't grip the ball under the dew. I remember when we arrived there,

all the talk was about whether the lights would stay on. And I think they had three solid nights of tests. There was a joke that no one could plug a toaster in or anything else in his, in Lahore in case they all. That was great. So I played a lot of cricket when I was there. And I played in a team, wonderfully named team called the Margal. gentleman. I was the only non-Pakistani in the side. It was just it was a great way of meeting

Pakistani friends. Yes. I love Pakistan and we're lucky now we've been three times down the last four or five years having not been for years. No, I know. And it's a wonderful place. I know there are areas that you can't go. It's fine. But they play cricket everywhere. Yes. You know on the edge of a mountain up in the northern areas there will be someone playing cricket. Yes, but it's it kind of a bit of misunderstood country. I don't know. I'm going to be careful what I say, But I think as far as us going there, it's a fabulous reception, wonderful welcome. I mean, it's a sort of a warm country for us to visit, certainly. It's like everywhere in the subcontinent, you know, there is almost a quasi-religious element to cricket.

I mean, everyone worships cricket. They all play it, they all follow it. Yes. They're in India. And, yeah, I mean, when there's security issues, it's difficult. I understand that. But I'm glad that we're back, and I'm glad that seems to be more under control. Yes.

And we went back under your... watch at r-o-6 so you're involved in a little bit because a little bit not least because a very good friend of mine was high commissioner christian turner who's doing the job in washington yes bless him yes actually we saw quite a bit of him is he's a character yes yes so you are involved in in one not deciding whether it was safe enough but in sort of the arrangements not not not so much that but clearly when when people are trying to work out what the threat picture is at some point we will I hope be contributing to that and helping. And when I was, you know, when I, I guess I'm a very, very good friend of long-term friend of John Carr.

Yes, right. So John, when he was director of cricket, I would occasionally get a phone call saying, we're thinking of going here saying, and I was very clear that I wasn't the official voice. But of course, you want to help. Because in a cricket team do go to some politically hot spots. We just do because of the way that the empire and everything was set up and the way that the tours are where cricket is played in the world. So actually, security does play quite a big part.

They said, yeah, particularly the subcontinent of our tours. Yeah, it has to do, doesn't it? It has to do. Having sort of, you're remembering those scenes precisely around Gaddafi Stadium when the Sri Lankans were caught up in a terrorist thing. You never want that to happen. Cricketers don't sign up to be intelligence officers. It's a different risk calculation.

They do things on the pitch that I would never do, facing down a 90-year-old 90-mile-an-hour bowlers. But you know, you've got to be sensitive to that and not go when it's not sensible to go. But at the same time, it means so much when you can. Yes. But do you feel the responsibility? Do you feel that responsibility

of being involved in that sort of decision? Well, as I say, that's a slightly sort of quirky, odd one. But you are involved in decisions in MI6. And particularly when you rise up the ranks and you get to become chief, you are obviously making some quite tricky decision. I mean in my time I had to make decisions about people did people stay in Kiev or not and those sort of things yes they're tough decisions. And from a cricketing sense where are you getting that information from? How can you be as certain

as you can be that England cricketers would not be a target in Pakistan for instance? You can you can never be 100% sure of anything in this world but you can I think give people some sense of a what the threat is whether the groups are active you might want to do harm and you can give a sense of how capable the local authorities are about dealing with that's right and it's those two calculations you're making I think and you've got I mean the ECB has got some very experienced security people who you know great links in reg yeah rich Dickerson you probably come across I've met I've met reg yeah and I was looking at your news so you came here and you saw

Australia here in the 75 I think so. Yeah, I was trying to work it out. 74 or 75. No, it was 75 and it was only a four test series but you you see it's interestingly I was fired by the previous Ash's test match here actually Bob Massey bowling swinging so you've got Lillian Tomo now. Yeah and you sat here as I did and I said I don't know which side whether it was it was grandstand or on the other side but yeah I do and I remember even there is a 11 year old I suppose I was at a time watching and when Tom O bold you just you literally

even with 12 year old eyes you couldn't see the ball and and Marsh was somewhere in the pavilion I mean it was it was astonishing yes and Lily I mean they were very very different weren't they I mean Tomo violent how bits of them didn't fall off they eventually did didn't they but I mean they yes that sort of lewd sling sling yeah and then Lily off that long run and the gold medallion I don't know if he got into the medallion stage and certainly, it's dothel some hair, didn't you? Do you remember that sort of sweatband?

You're so inspiring. I love that Australian team, although you're sort of brought up not to in a way. And so many of them have become good friends, actually. I mean, Ian Trappel I saw during the... Dear Rodney Marsh, we've lost now, but he was a really good friend. And it's interesting in this job that I've been doing, where you get the chance, you know, from those childhood days of actually not just meeting people who were heroes,

but actually, you know, getting to know, And of course, it's wonderful. It's one of the privileges of doing this and occasionally is you do get a chance to meet people. I remember I was able in a sort of gap I was able to get to the Barbados test. What was the last time but one that we were there? I want to say 2018, 19 when we were over in the window. Yes, that very very, very flat patch. It's the one where we got absolutely pummeled. Oh right, okay.

They got 700 and something. Exactly. And the skipper got a double century. That's right, yes. But I spent, it's the only time I've been able to spend all four days watching a tent. That was wonderful. But I was invited by the President of the Barbadian Cricket Association to come in and use his box. And so I had lunch every day with Charlie Griffiths and Wes Hall and

Gubers and Everton weeks just before he died. Yes. Oh, well that's special. I had returned to my 12-year-old self. It was just sort of wonderful. Wes Hall did it. At some point, one of our fastballers was being carted back over the head for six. And Wes Hall so declares to the group around his Inheim,

that he was never hit back over his head for six. You think, I'll excuse my language, but no, no, probably not, Sir Wes. There's no helmets. And you'd, you know. They were great characters, those old West Indian, West Indian cricketers. So Tomo and Lily, that was the game that you saw in which David, Steele made his debut. Yeah.

Came down in the dressing room steps famously and of course went down a level too far, ended up of the gents. Which is a story which he dines out on regularly. But he came out. I mean he eventually emerged and scored and scored 50. That's right. And Tomo

greeted him. Very slowly. Yes. He said, oh my word, it's Groucho Marx. He said as he walked past him. But that was yeah, that was sort of childhood dream stuff with David Steele wasn't it? I mean, from nowhere. Absolutely. It was a grey head, wasn't he?

I mean, when you played. Yes. No, he was, and such a character. And I was intrigued as well to see that you played. Your last game, it says here, was for, you played for the MI6. I did. Our team. But they play under an alias. They do.

And that's, and I, I just conjures up all sorts of crazy images. Doesn't it? Yes. They've got a very elite fixture list. Yes. Which I'm not going to reveal to you. So it's a team of spies playing. There are some nifty cricketers in that.

Yes. I mean, I first played for them in, I don't know, in 88 when I still had a sort of little bit of sting in my medium faces. Right. And I played for them last summer. I had to. One of the sort of, I don't know, things you've got to do is you leave as chief. I had to go and have one more. Yes.

Go out with them. And it nearly killed me because I made that mistake. I scored it. I scored about, so I was going quite well on a 30-odd. But that meant I was in for way too long for my body. And so literally for days afterwards I couldn't move. And I was out because I turned for a second run. And I think 40 years earlier, I might have come somewhere,

you know, half, I might have made it to half the pitch. But I was still only about five years, five yards in, the veils are off. Well, there you go, advancing you. But it's this this thought. thought of a team of intelligence officers, or spies, what everyone would call them. Presumably you all know that you're all, you're all, you're all, yes, yes, yeah, there are limits to the subterfuge.

But you're not, but you're not, no one else does. No. The umpun. I mean, when you, when you, when you, when you, when you, when you, when you, when you, when you, when you, hand that with your sunglasses. No. They, they, no. The holster under the white. So we all of that. I can see there's a whole image here going. It's fast. It's very hard. It deflects the blows. Yeah. It's a sort of an early... Yes, chessmen.

There are sides probably all around southern England who are completely unaware of who they're actually playing. That's unbelievable. The whole point is a whole pile of slightly obscure sides. Everyone's going to look at them now, aren't they? They're probably... And they won't be. Well, suppose you wouldn't have had your own ground,

that's a start, was it? Were you a nomadic team? We were definitely nomadic. Yes. No ground at Vauxhall Cross. Did you call each other by your proper names when you've changed the bowling? You are really probing.

You're really proud. I'm fascinated. It's such a fascinating state of affairs. We took on the names of test cricketers. I'm just making this up now. But that whole question of the sub-diffusion, on the one hand, yes, of course, it does seem funny. But of course, it's deadly serious.

It has its moments. It is there for a serious reason. So, I mean, in effect, has your life until whatever you did reveal yourself? which was that do you reveal yourself when you actually become chief and until that point you're under the radar absolutely the chief is the only person in the service who is avowed to use the term of art so everyone else is still undercover now look I mean realistically I may have a couple of colleagues in

the box you know there are you get to a certain stage in your in your career and you've been around a while and inevitably you've probably worked with other foreign services so you you're not so worried about it, but when you're in your first five, ten years of your career as an operational officer, yeah, you do take it seriously and you need to not show out. And if you're in places which are, you just put yourself back into Islamabad in the mid-90s when I was an operational officer there, then, you know, there are certain threats. It's probably lowers your threat. If people don't know that you're an MI6 officer and if they do, they might want to do your harm. So what did you say you were? Oh, I've said I was in the foreign office.

I was working in the High Commission. Right. And that's, you know, it's what... So it's sort of a life of deception in a way. It is, and look, you know, it's... You can't go around. You can't tell your mates that, you know, at the weekend at a cricket match or something, what you do. And so you've got to have a certain degree of the self-containment about that.

And you've got to take satisfaction from the work you do, the mission that you're on. And the fact you, of course, can talk to your colleagues. You just can't talk about it to your family. And some of your family will know. Right. Do you know? Yeah, of course. Yeah.

And Maggie and I were already married when I joined, which we didn't have that rather complicated thing that people do who may meet and fall in love. And, of course, you can't tell the other person what you do for a living initially. That's extraordinary. Until you're fairly confident they're the one. And they could still go wrong. Well, it could. But you've revealed yourself, though, then. You have. And it's a one-way door, isn't it? Once you've said what you do for a living, you can't take it back. You can't sort of say, no, you've misheard me. I said I work for MFI.

Or whatever the thing is. Yes. So in that circumstance, I'm just thinking, it's probably best if he's all broke up fairly amicably, I guess, is it if you are going to break up? I think we would encourage people not to have violently painful breakups. I think you're probably right. But no, look, most people are very, that stuff happens, that, you know, those members of your family, it's, it's your, you are putting a responsibility on them. It is a peculiar thing of our world,

because if you, if you bring siblings or parents, and then eventually your kids, at what point do you tell your kids? Absolutely. What you do? So what did you do? You have got kids, presumably. I do. I do.

The story of telling my son, is unprintable and I can't because of his reaction but he was shocked you know I will tell part of the story we we built up to this and we're on holiday a member in New Zealand and Jacko must have been about 14 when we thought it was time there was a slightly unworthy thing because Jacko he's now in his late 30s or mid 30s he won't mind me saying so but he was quite sort of quite a stroppy teenager of I thought, you know, maybe this, suddenly he'd get some respect for his dad, if I told him. So, you know, which betrays a complete lack of knowledge of teenage boy psychology.

Anyway, we sat him down and Maggie and I were a bit nervous. It was odd about telling him. So... What did you think you'd done up to this point then? Oh, he wouldn't have. Wouldn't have thought much, I would think, but I'm in foreign office, not particularly... Worked at a desk or something. Undistinguished diplomat. Yeah. So we sat him down, but then we made the mistake of looking quite serious, because we were

actually quite nervous about this moment and then I could look this I saw this look of utter panic in his eyes because I think he thought we were about to tell him we were getting divorced so so at which point I've been trained to deliver this pitch yes you know and it just sort of spewed out in some way and I think he was very relieved was he wasn't what I think I mean there was a sort of string of of um 14 year old like oaths right were um thing but yeah we were a bit better with With my daughter, we didn't fluff our lines. Yeah.

But friends, friends, I mean, who must have had, you know, lifelong friends. Yeah. When they found out that, well, you hadn't deceived them, that's wrong. But when they found out that actually you were completely different, or you're doing, you are what you are. Yeah. What was their reaction to that? Look, I think people don't think they've been deceived.

They kind of understand the logic of it and why you would need to do it. And for most people, you know, the distinction between MI6 and a foreign office is not entirely clear in their heads anyhow. So I'm not sure it made that much difference to friends. And also as I got older and as I'd been posted in places like Malaysia, I would think half the British expatriates in Guolompa knew who the spook was in the embassy. And so it's, you know, at that point. You're also going to use that word. Yeah, there you go. I mean, at that point, if you've been friends with somebody for 25 years,

it's probably okay just to check in at the office and say, do you mind if I tell this? I mean, you know, I've already mentioned John Carr being a very, very close friend of mine. I'm John's known. So he knew what you. Yeah. Yeah. It's extraordinary living, isn't it? I mean, did you feel in danger doing it?

I mean, were you looking over your shoulder every move that someone actually is, someone spying on you, actually? Because part of your job, I guess, is to obviously discover who's spying for other countries in this country. So therefore, people in those countries are looking for who's spying for us. Yes, that seems entirely clear. Yes. You're not something. Did you feel under surveillance yourself? You are occasionally.

I mean, you don't want to overstate the dangers. I mean, they are there, and occasionally you'll be in certain environments where you might face that. But it's not a sort of day in, day out thing, it's really clear. And there are lots of people in the service doing really valuable roles who are not in those roles. Maybe they're technologists or they're an analyst-type person back. person back home. But yeah, it will be there. And if you are running operations overseas, then by definition you're trying to develop a clandestine relationship with someone and then you're trying to run them in place while they can provide the secrets that you know.

So that's how you operate. You go to a country wherever you are and you would try and get somebody a local on side as it were who you could. It wouldn't it might be local. It might be you know, it might be a Russian identified intelligence officer in their embassy and that particular. And you'd work on that person. Yeah, you'd try and develop a relationship and see whether you could find something in them which meant that they were prepared to come and work with us. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

At what point would you reveal to them, who you know? Ah, well, that's a, that's a, that's a, A great sort of moment of art is judging the right moment to do that when you think you are going to maximize your chances of them saying yes because they've learned to trust you and trust your professionalism, trust you as a decent human being. And that they might say yes because obviously you do pitch them and you do say who you work for and you ask them to help you and they're not prepared to. They probably will go and tell their own authorities at which point you're gone. Your cover's blown. Potentially, yeah. Well, your cover is definitely blown and you may be going home at that point. So, you know, you judge it.

How do you select that person? How do you actually think that's the person I'm going to really try? Well, you know, there's a bit of science to it nowadays. You can imagine that data is really important. You've got to try and identify. These are people who you are going to ask to run some serious risks. I mean, at the best, you're going to be in a place of great embarrassment. if it's revealed that you've been helping MI6 or you might lose your job and at the most extreme. If you're a Iranian official, then I'm afraid the results of being caught can be terminal. So in those, in that environment, given the risks that they're going to be running, they've got to have a very strong motivation to want to help. And that can be, you know, there's all kinds of reasons why people decide to come and help you.

And some, some people do it out of, because they are disqualification, by what their own country is doing. So, you know, take, I've spoken about this publicly, take something like the invasion of Ukraine by Putin in February 22, there are lots of Russians who were deeply opposed to that, who may have been within the system who were dismayed. So we made a great effort to try and make sure they understood that they'd be welcome if they could find a way to us. We would look after them. Yes.

And that involves people being there, your people being there, does it? There's a limit to how far I can go. on all this but you've obviously we've got people based overseas but we've also got ways I'm when I was chief we announced a kind of dark website that people could go on to where you know they could be able to offer their services if you like in a way that we could protect and then we would find a way of contacting them and taking it forward it is extraordinary I suppose as it money too I suppose is it money talk is it money is sometimes sometimes an element of it but it's rarely everything because you know you can

imagine if it's just money then then the loyalty the tied to you is going to be more limited I think so you know you're usually looking for stronger reasons than that better cricket for a moment I was reading that you you fielded I did for Oxford University so this is I'm looking at my skipper over in the corner well unfortunately he doesn't have any recollection of this no no he's rather relieved it was a bit of a one-sided I am I going to be star-I mean it's nice I think for Vic to have people who are starstruck yes by him particularly in his playing days it's it's a rare event I get I was once at an

evening Vic I don't know where you were doing a sort of evening thing and you were introduced by a son correspondent who said something very unkind I think as a sudden correspondent did you get 83 wickets for England or how many wickets do you get for England no no well in test matches far few no no no he made some aspersion to sorry sorry One's got 83 in a match. You've got 83 runs. There was some rather tart comment about getting all these wickets for the one that went on with the arm. Oh, well, they all went on.

Very uncanned. They always went on with them. So explain what happened here. So how do you, how have you come across Victor? So this comes back to John Carr again, who at the time was playing for Oxford, a very fine player, went on to play for middle six. Very unorthodox player. He had a very unusual standard. Well, he moved in and out.

He got a brilliant hundred against us. Yeah. At Oxford he had a perfectly conventional thing and then he didn't get any run. So he then adopted, didn't you? Sort of with one leg sleigh towards the leg. That's right. The umpire at square leg. He was very unusual.

Very good slipper and a good player. And at one year, remarkably, do you remember, he was top of the first class averages. And he, because when Lara got his whatever it was. The big one, the big 501. A 501. So Lara was BC-Ly-Ly. was second in the first world averages and Carr because I think he scored something like 180 runs over six weeks without getting out two lot out yeah snuck in ahead of him yes at the end of it

so it was John John was in those days they were called honorary secretary and it was his job to get the 12th man and so very kindly he offered me a day at the at the park so off I went and Oxford had an injured player so I ended up fielding for them and then Somerset having knocked something like three hundred and seventy of a war one or something in the usual way against the undergraduates. I don't think I think Roebuck was skipper and I think Roebuck just didn't really fancy field against a bunch of undergraduates so I got drafted in. Victor was often the stand-in captain.

That's that's outstanding. Yeah. No. Well that's that's a pretty decent standard though to go out and you can actually see it if you look at that game in Wisden you will unfortunately find nothing. Nothing at all. Sub on the thing. I think I had a couple of shies at the stump.

We had a famous court sub. Do you remember Jamie Salmon, the rugby player? Oh. Right. Well, he turned up because he was a big mate of Chris Cowderys. We were playing against Kent. Somebody got injured. Jamie Salmon was around, pulled some whites on, went out and fielded,

and took a catch in the deep. So there is a court sub for Leicestershire against Kent at Grace Road, which was actually caught by Jamie Samad. Very good. Anyhow, I have to say that Victor was extremely kind. you know to a young undergrad where you feel you he put no he didn't he didn't short leg I wasn't running from end to end no he put me in there he put me at extra cover or something you do you know he was

yeah they had got 370 for one at the stage I don't think no fair enough fair enough too concerned of us they're keeping the runs down are you a traditional cricket lover I mean are we talking you know test matches for your or do you know like the T20s and the colourful stuff and the hundred and all those sorts of things I I like I like cricket in all its forms and I do I do I do enjoy the short form of the game and I'm absolutely a supporter of it for bringing people into the game. Completely get that, but no, it's test cricket through and through. And I will, it's one of the things to explain, you know, having spent a lot of my time talking to foreigners,

it is impossible to explain why you would want to watch a slow scoring, not that we have much of that in recent years, but slow scoring test match and you watch them ball after ball and things. But I do, I love it. I love it. You're sort of getting grossed in it, don't you? I mean, you're lucky. You mentioned that four days you could watch. I really admire people who come on watch one day.

Like everyone here today, they come on the Sunday, the third day of the game. So how do you keep up with the game and how do you follow it after you've had your one day of actually being there? Well, I guess you have telly, don't you? And you have the radio and you follow it and avidly go and watch the highlights and all the rest of it. So I've struggled to get more than the odd day at the cricket in recent years. years. I'm rather hoping that I'll see a bit more of it. Yes. What do you thought of England recently and the way that they've been playing? Is it frustrated you? Did the ashes frustrate you? The ashes did frustrate you. It's hard not to because I think we all got our hopes up, didn't we?

Yes. I mean even though statistically we shouldn't have done but that's a good side. It's a good side and they went there with high hopes and so yeah like everyone else a bit frustrated. I'm not expert enough to comment on Preparational lack of it and all the other stuff that we can have a view though you can have a view I can have a I can have a view and I have lots of ignorant views about cricket but I perhaps shouldn't have to share them with all your listeners but yeah it's it is frustrating but you know overall have I really really enjoyed the last period you know under McCullum and Stokes yeah absolutely have loved it it's a very exciting moment there's been soaring soaring highs and deep depression And I sat over there watching the World Cup final. That's the most excited I've ever been on the planet. And that was a day. Oh, what a day.

Amazing. So, yeah. Yeah. No, I enjoy what they do. And there's some real talented cricketers. Yes, yes. Well, I think we've seen one. Okay.

Did you see him? Yeah. I saw the highlights briefly. Yes. And it looks very well organized. It's name. Yes. No, he does.

Right. I'm taking back to your day job again now, Richard. So, because it's one love about this job. get the chance to actually talk to people at what they do. And I mean, is it glamorous? Is being a spy a glamorous occupation? Or is Ian Fleming sort of jazzed it up to ridiculous extent? I mean, is there any semblance of, or resemblance between you and your profession

and Roger Moore, your namesake? Yes, I know. I've been, by the way, over many, many years, decades, I've been called Roger. You've been Roger. Bye, bye, I have been. I nearly said something I shouldn't. but I have been, I have had the word Roger applied to me. And it's really funny because people do it completely without realising.

And carry on, they've just saying, and I have this rule I never put them right. This chuckle inwardly. I once got a Christmas card addressed to me in Malaysia when I was the head of station there in the period after 9-11 from the local Malaysian intelligence service, which, A, I was supposed to be preserving some kind of kind of kind of. but they handed in a card at the front desk which said Mr Roger Moore, MI6 representative British High Commissioner Qualimpa. That's a brilliant, but that's super, is it?

Okay, absolutely, brilliant. So I can't match the late and great Roger Moore's suavity. Does not, we don't go around much wearing DJs and doing this party. We do occasionally, but we do occasionally, but But no, much more of it is, and this is where the Bond thing is, the Bond thing is marvellous. I'm now kind of in the private sector doing advisory stuff these days. And I meet lots of businesses who would die for the brand recognition

that Bond has given MI6. So it reaches all the corners of the planet. Yes. It means that you don't have to explain where you're from. You know, they kind of get it. So that's very powerful. But, you know, Bond is a kind of loner. It's deeply, certainly the early born deeply sexist.

It's all got a whole pile of stuff that goes with that. And that's not what we are. You're not loners. No, we're not. Even though you're carrying out this life of subterfuge. No, because you're, because with your colleagues, of course, you have this astonishing esprit of course. So we're massive, I mean, it's teamwork.

Yes. It's a good analogy, cricket, isn't it? Because it's such a team sport. And yet at the moment, It is a battle between bat and ball, one batter, one bowler. So, yes, in that moment, it might be you and the agent that you are cultivating or perhaps running. But you've got this massive team behind you. You've got the support staff.

You've got all of that going on. You've got the other people on the field who are all playing complementary roles. So it's intensely teamworky. And one of the things, again, I've spoken about this. And I tell you who has said this more eloquently than anyone else, it was my predecessor, Alex Younger, so sadly we lost earlier this week. It's a deep, very close friend. As you can slightly tell, I'm still rather upset by it.

But Alex made this point that we're not like the opposition, that the people in MI6 are deeply moral, deeply ethical. You do play by the rules? Absolutely do. You have to do. Everything we do has to be in accordance. in accordance with British law. That's an act.

Even if others aren't, even if for the people that you're working against, if you're probably aren't. No, they're absolutely not. If you, you know, look at what happened in Salisbury. That was Russian intelligence. They were prepared to use a military nerve grade agent on the streets of Salisbury and they threw it away.

And they, you know, that perfume file that sadly was picked up and killed Dawn Sturgis, it could have wiped out of school. So there's a recklessness and an amoral there which we you know we don't have we you know we're we're Democrats and we believe in democracy and we are helping to protect democracy and if you stoop as Alex said if you stoop to using the methods of the opposition then you've become like them you've lost you have lost the plot you've lost any kind of

even if it comes down to the end's degree of absolutely kind of like life or death or whatever however serious it may be you'd still play by the rules the end does not justify the means it really doesn't in this place So clearly, you know, there are very difficult issues you have to confront. There are partners overseas that you might have to work with on our counterterrorism operation who don't have the same values as we do. And they don't treat people as well as we do. But if you are going to work with those types of partners, which sometimes you have to do to keep Britain safe,

then you do it in a really carefully circumscribed environment with assurances that people will be treated well. And you check up on the assurances and if you don't get the insurance, you stop the work. It is as simple as that. And you've got a whole pile of very senior judges. You can be a young desk officer in their late, you know, in their early, mid to late 20s. And a senior judge will come and look at what you've done, you know, months later in the cold light of day.

So yeah, it's pretty... With hindsight and everything else. Yeah, absolutely. So it's really inculcated into... Do we make mistakes? Of course we do. But is there a really strong ethical compass in MI6, absolutely there is. And we recruit for that.

That's my next question. About recruiting. I mean, if people listening now, I've quite fancy being a spy. Right in, do you? I mean, how do you become a spy? Nowadays, you literally apply online. We've got a website and you go on. My6 has a website. Yeah, absolutely. Having been a secret thing for 80 years or it was. Absolutely. We've taken some steps in recent years, obviously, to try and make ourselves a bit more accessible.

So we get people of talent from all across the UK, all regions, all ethnicities, etc. to come and join us. And so you apply, and we obviously have ways of keeping that, you know, secure. You apply and if you get through the fairly rigorous process, you can join. And, you know, you'd be surprised if you went into the building, you would, you would, of course, find a whole bunch of very ordinary people doing extraordinary things. You know, we're not kind of, we haven't got sort of three eyes and, you know it's very normal people but yeah but if you say the three criteria then to be a

to apply to be a spy what what do you need to have well you've got remember you've got very differing types of people so you may have you know people like me who came in to be an operational officer a case officer you're actually there to recruit and run people but you may have other people who come in to do more kind of back office jobs or jobs involving analytical work or processing intelligence, and you may have technologists. Now, you're not going to have the same necessarily that you don't need the kind of interpersonal skills

that you might need at one level. For a technologist, it's lovely to have them, but we really need them to be brilliant technologists. So you've got that variety. The thing that they all have in common, I think, is a sense of being really grounded. You've got to be self-aware, and you've got to have a lot, you can't have ego.

Ego blinds you. If you're going to make judgments about another, human being and make those very consequential judgments about whether or not they're prepared to help you if you have your own really rather over large ego that will just block out the sensing and the empathy you need in order to make that so pretty low ego people yeah it's it's it's extraordinary and that ability to just kind of be somebody else in a way to have that facade you have but it's a bit like um like actors you know they're on a stage and and they are pretending to be, by definition,

to be playing a role on stage. But you often say, don't you, about the great actors that they can convey authenticity. Yes. They're authentic. And so a good MI6 officer may well be,

not quite what they see on the surface, but there will be an authenticity there that the other person has to make the human connection with. Because if you come across this fake, no one's going to trust you on it. But do you get trained as well? I actually trained to be able to,

to be able to analyze somebody to that degree. We put a lot of effort into helping people to think through this stuff, to be the best of themselves. Yeah, we do a lot of role playing in this where either it'll be so, either can be actors or they can be more senior officers or retired officers or come back and sort of player, you know, we'll set them up in a scenario and then we'll test how well they react and, of course, we'll throw the odd googly at them and we'll see how they get on and responding to it.

Is the world a more dangerous place now than when you came in? What, 2020, so didn't you? With everything that's been going on, does it feel more volatile to you? It hasn't gotten any better, has it, sadly? And it is more volatile. People often ask this, you know, is this the most dangerous point? And since the Second World War, or are we in World War III? And I don't like that latter thing.

I don't think that's a bit sort of alarmist. But there were probably more dangerous points during the Cold War. You know, there were a missile crisis or the Berlin blockade or some of the things we now know around the early 80s. There were very dangerous points where there was a near miss on some of the nuclear time. That's a more dangerous moment, if you like. But I think in terms of being disordered and not having some of the guardrails that were there for most of the post-war period, even at the height of the Cold War, at the moment that doesn't seem to be. be there and we've you know we're therefore dealing with multiple crises at the same time

whether it's Ukraine or recently Iran or you know how do we more strategically think about China and its place in the world and how we're going to relate to that all of this stuff is happening you know all at once without too much of the kind of international I mean they're ultimately in the international system it's the United Nations Security Council that that can call things out and help to guide you to safer waters and it does not operate at the moment. Yeah. I must mention Ukraine, I guess I don't want to get too heavy on this, but Putin and I mean, you know, just ordinary people living here in the UK.

I mean, should we feel safe entirely? I mean, is this man someone who's going to press the red button suddenly and blow everything up? What's your thought of that? I don't think I'm in sort of, you know, Dr. Strangelove's sort of scenario here with him. I don't think Putin has ever seriously contemplated the use of nuclear weapons. over Ukraine because you know apart from the absolute you know that is such a massive taboo that he would be breaking with all the potential horrible consequences of it but he knows that would be the end of him so he's not that's not the issue but it is a very

serious issue we are now you know four years in four and a bit years into this Russia has been in in Ukraine now for longer than it fought in the Second World War It's an astonishing thing. It's incredible. Absolutely incredible. And, you know, we need it to end, but it needs to end on a basis which is fair to Ukraine. And thus far, Putin has not seen, has not been put under enough pressure enough to bring him to the table ready to do it. You think he should be under more pressure?

Oh, yes, of course he should. And by the way, pressures are starting to rise, not least because the Ukrainians are being extraordinarily innovative. Did you expect that, by the way, of Ukraine? We worked really closely with Ukraine, really, because we were caught napping all of us in 2014, when he, you know, remember the little green men and the takeover of Crimea and all that, and there was no reaction. So after 2014, we and the Americans really invested into building up the relationship with the Ukrainians, and that paid off, I think, in late 21 and early 22.

But they've gone on to be extraordinarily innovative and what they're able to do with drones now. There was an occasion on the battlefield recently where Ukraine, The Ukrainian land drones took the surrender of a small group of Russian soldiers. Surrendered to drones. So there was no Ukrainian infantrymen in that space. These vehicles went in, obviously were able to broadcast to the troops to ask them to surrender. They surrendered, they got on the vehicles and they were pulled out. That is astonishing that is happening.

So the Ukraine is doing well and at home the pressures on Putin are mounting. And that, you remember he had his, he always has this annual parade, 9th of May, Victory Day. It's always a massive. Dictators love to show their toys off. And the fact that there was hardly anything there was a big moment. And I think we'll look back at that five, ten years' time. We'll think that may be in the moment when things started to slide for Putin. And how do relations work the other side of the Atlantic then?

Let's face it, we have something of a maverick in charge. I thought I was the diplomat. I mean, does that affect what your job was? I mean, the actual, the CIA, which is kind of the equivalent, isn't it? Yeah. If you've got someone like that in charge, how does that affect things? I mean, big statements, crazy statements, wild statements. Do you just kind of ignore them?

Or how does that relationship work? Well, you know, Donald Trump is the president of the United States. So wild, though they may sometimes be, or those words of his vice president. But there are a fact, and it's quite clear that there are some tensions in the Western Alliance that weren't there before. There were some underlying causes for that which frankly are on the Europeans. We've free-loaded on the Americans on the fence really for decades, and it's right that we should put that right.

But I think I can reassure you that the intelligence relationship is so embedded into the DNA of both sides of the Atlantic. It's embedded as a DNA, partly because we've been doing it for decades together. Partly there's a lot of trust that's built up. But mostly it's not a sentimental relationship. It's done to keep our respective countries safe. And that job is still there to be done. So I think the relationship on the intelligence field is really still in good shape.

Richard, thank you. I've really enjoyed. I mean, I could chat to you for ages. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming. We finally made it. This has been a little boy's dream. So thank you for letting me on.

Well, I have a Christmas card still at home for a couple of years ago signed by C. which I showed off over the whole of Christmas. Which is fabulous. I'm so glad you've come. Thank you. We finally got there, even though, yes, the cake was devoured a couple years ago. I'm so sorry.

Wise. Enjoy your, well, quiet a time, I suppose. Is it quiet enough for you? Well, I'm here, this afternoon. Yeah, so you can enjoy the cricket. Absolutely. They're great. Thank you so much.

Thanks a lot. Love it to have met you. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So much sport today and all the goals as they go in. Up and down the league. This is Five Live Sports. It's all right to the lights and fit and a floor. To bowl him.

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