Test Match Special - View from the Boundary - Tony Banks

Episode Date: September 7, 2024

Jonathan Agnew speaks to musician, and founding member of Genesis, Tony Banks in the TMS commentary box at The Oval.Tony discusses having Allan Lamb invite him to England's dressing room, his classical music work, and having to swap shirts with a stranger to gain access to the MCG.

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So, time for our view from The Boundary. We're joined by a founder member of one of the biggest selling groups in music history. Alongside Phil Collins and Mike Rutherford, he formed the band Genesis, who went to sell at about 150 million albums worldwide, and they were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2010. The band last performed in 2022 on the last domino tour.

But our guest has also enjoyed a varied solo career, diversifying into orchestral works and film scores. He's a big cricket fan, once invited into the England dressing room at the MCG by Alan Lamm. I'm sure a story he'll tell us all about a very warm welcome to Tony Banks. Well, thank you very much.

I'm really looking forward to this. And here you are at the Oval. You obviously listen to Test Mats Special a lot, don't you? I do. I've listened over the years. I remember the days of Brian Johnson and you together many times. I just like...

It was a bit older of them. me. I mean, he's only 50 years older than me. I know, but you were together for it. It was kind of, I think it's one of those programs that kind of delivers more than it kind of, you think it is. I mean, it's not really just about talking about cricket and the match

that's going on. There's all this other stuff that goes on. It's a sort of life-affirming kind of program, I think, and I think that's one of its real strengths. Yeah, that's nice. When do you listen to it? Are you in the car, isn't it? In the garden, isn't it? In the garden. I spend a lot of time in the garden. And the old days when you had problem with interference, you couldn't listen on the radio very well.

But these days with the digital stuff, you know, I can hedge trim, I can mow the lawn and everything and still listen to your lovely voice. That's nice about putting it. And cricket-wise, then, I mean, do you get out and watch much? Did you play? I mean, charter house school, you'd think we'd have some lovely facilities and we're breeding all sorts of cricketers and international craters.

But in fact, research suggests only really Peter May was the really one record. nice top critter to come out of there. So what happened to you? Well, I was hopeless. I didn't really know. No one told me how really hard to play it. So I just was out there, hit balls and through balls. No, I didn't do it. I didn't really enjoy it at school. And it wasn't really for me. I enjoyed more things like tennis and stuff like that where I could, responsible for my own actions a little bit more. So I just, I came to listen to it. I suppose my father watched sometimes on TV and it seemed to always

be kind of Ken Barrington was out there as well I remember who was the main man and I remember John Edridge getting 310 not out that sticks in my brain I don't know why New Zealand yes it's a lively innings yeah well I mean I remember all that and then I think when the early days of the group wasn't much chance to listen we were touring everywhere and doing everything

but when I moved to the country I found myself listening back and I listen a lot it's just one of those things it sort of used to be just the summer of course it now carries on although most of the other test matches around the world take place the middle of the night, which is not so thoughtful really.

We will this winter as well, which will be nice. And as far as watching cricket goes, do you get out? Well, I'm able to, I'm lucky. I've got a couple of friends who are members at Lords, and they allow me to come with them sometimes, and I go there quite often. I've been here a few times, and down to Southampton as well.

I enjoy it coming. I mean, to honest, my eyesight's not that great anymore, and if you sit sideways to the thing, you can't really see the ball. So you have to respond to reactions. But I like to come because it sets the scene. So when you are doing it on the radio or everything, I can sort of, I know what's going on. I have a picture in my mind.

That's interesting. Yeah, okay. And in terms of formats, I mean, here you're at a test match. And seeing a field like that set in that last over before lunch, you know, all those slips. Yeah, for as much as one day cricket has got its place in its part. But somehow we'll talk about your blank sheet of paper in a minute. But with test cricket, you do have a blank sheet of paper,

and you can do all sorts of things with it. Yeah, I mean, a test match is definitely the ball. best, I think, to listen to on the radio and everything. If you're coming for a match, then one day can be good, I think, because you just, it all happens in a day, it's exciting, people hitting balls all over the place, and you know, you get a result.

Yes. So I don't have a particular problem with one day cricket. I just love watch the game being played, actually, and people doing good shots. I think some of the 2020 and 100 stuff, perhaps there's just too many sixes now. And I'd say overall, there's too much cricket in general. Although I don't

really complain, because I like it. Do you, it's a sad, it'd be a sad time if test cricket were diminished and lost, though. I think it still has a cachet, you know, certainly with the teams, Australia and India and us and everything, I think. It's a question of, it was nice to get the West Indies back to the sort of standard they were in the days when we, when they were formidable, you know. Perhaps not to be playing against them, to be honest. Well, I fortunately never had to do that. I could watch. I was a big fan of Michael Marshall, actually. I just thought he was my favourite. I don't know why, but he was.

But they were all. He was a magnificent cricketer. Yeah, I know. One of the most natural fast bowlers has ever been. That's right. And he didn't depend on sort of height in the way that some of the others did. No.

So I like that aspect of it. And, you know, so I will certainly, well, I don't know how much longer I've got to go, really. So hopefully it'll last my lifetime. But, you know, after that, I don't know, really. I mean, like things come and go. You know, people seem to have shorter attention spans now. I think that's true.

Or are we telling youngsters they've got shorter attentions? Well, I think it's the fact there's so many alternatives all the time. I mean, I'm in my musical world. I'm very long-winded. You know, I think our best song went back in the early days with 25 minutes long.

Yes, we found that. We almost thought of saying, well, settle back and listen to our guest and then basically hand back to the studio afterwards. Well, that would be good. How did you write something so long? Well, that was kind of made up of various sections to try to tell a story,

and it proved to be probably our best piece from that. early era. It was an opener, wasn't it? Do you use it for an opener for show, live shows? No, we never did right to the beginning, but it was well in the thing. It was often used the last part as a closer or close to a closer because it was very the final five, six minutes

is very intense and exciting and if you like that kind of thing, not everybody does. It was a very good moment, you know, so, but also in my you mentioned I do this sort of classical stuff or orchestral work nowadays and I find it struggled to do anything under 10 minutes, this is the problem really, you know,

which again means that people, you know, perhaps haven't got the patience to listen to it all. It's a lot of puff for us euphonium players, you know. Oh, absolutely, there you go. I know. You ever written a piece for including euphosurally? Not consciously. Well, there's your challenge.

Well, whether one of my helpful arrangers has put a little euphonic, I don't think he has, actually, because I haven't seen one there. What a shame? Well, for euphonian players everywhere. Next time, put us a nice euphonian melody. I do love the sound of a brass band, actually. So, you know, it's something, you know, who knows, whether I've got any more of me or not I don't know

we'll see right well that's there's a challenge for you it is definitely tell me how you got into this England dressing room then back back in the day right well back in 1986 it was a year or two after you must have been in the team actually we were in Australia and something dropped by them yeah I didn't want to put it that way you put it that way

we went we were invited some strange reason there was an America's Cup tournament out there and we were invited to the to a party as were the England cricket team and we went to This is Genesis. It's the band. It's the whole band, yeah.

And we sort of, and I got chatting with Alan Lamb at the time, amongst others, and he was very friendly and he said, why don't you come to the dressing room at Melbourne, which was coming up later? And I said, well, okay, I can bring my son, who at the time was eight years old.

He's in the back then. I was a bit older than that now. And so, yes, we went along there, and I got in the ground and sort of was waiting to get into the gate. And the guy said, you can't come in looking like that. So I said, well, I've been invited

you know how a lamb has invited me anyhow um so it's my shirt apparent was a problem so I went to I couldn't find a shop or anything so I saw a man well a young chap walking around with a collar collared shirt so I went up to him and I said will you swap shirts for me if I give you ten dollars

so he said yeah he couldn't believe his luck I think it was an awful old shirt he had a collar yes and that so you stripped off outside stripped off outside yes well very exciting and and then we got got let into the dressing room, which was, you know, it's fantastic. I mean, it's very exciting to do that.

You know, you do feel a bit superfluous to requirements, I have to say, because there's all these guys hanging around. But people were very friendly. I remember chatting to John Embry for a bit and others. And it was a very, you know, obviously it was a match that they won very convincingly. They won that series. It was a remarkable series because they went out there and lost virtually every practice game that was going. There was the America's Cup, you're right, and there was a one day,

tournament that was attached to that which they won and it sort of gave them a bit of momentum and my very dear friend Martin Johnson however still wrote as the first test was about to start in Brisbane there's only three things wrong with this England cricket team they can't bat they can't bowl and they can't field and they went on to win that first test match

and actually they strap Martin up and put him in the nets afterwards and Ian both of them I think Graham Dilley they bowled at him and completely beat him up in the nets but they did win the ashes that time yeah they did well in fact It was one of the few times. We were lucky to be in Australia at one moment

when you actually mentioned cricket in the room with Australians in it. They hid behind the sofa, which was normally what we do. And it was very, it was great fun. Wonderful to have been there and to have had that opportunity, you know.

Yeah. You've thought of going back on these tours, if you like cricket, going back to Australia, say 18 months and a lot of people do it. And it's a great trip. Well, we were out, I was out there at the time, you know, obviously playing. And so that's why went there.

I don't think I'd, I'm not sure I would travel to Australia just for cricket. But, I mean, I have a sister who lives out there, so who knows, you know. Anything could happen. But my wife's not very keen on cricket, actually. So I think that's... Well, she always finds something else to do. Well, hopefully, yes, you'd have to. Do you regret not having played, to have gone to such a wonderful school with amazing facilities?

And you obviously do love cricket? Do you regret not having had the chance really to have played it? No, not really at all. It's a very hard ball, you know. Yes, that's true. I mean, obviously, various times over the years, people have tried to drag me into their cricket teams. Yes.

Have a go, have a go. Absolutely. And I say, no, no, no, I've got to protect my hands. I'm not very good timing-wise. So one or two times I have played, I tend to, my hands get hit. They're probably quite valuable those hands. Well, it was a good excuse, put it like that, and how valuable they were.

I was abusing myself in all sorts of other ways in terms of what I was doing in the garden, you know, but. Right. of... We'll move on to that later. Maybe not. But actually, it's not a bad excuse to have. It is a hardball. It is a hardball. Do you follow England around the world?

I mean, you're listening in? You say it was a bit difficult during the night. Yeah, I try to follow what's going on. I mean, back in, you know, 30, 40 years ago, you didn't really worry too much about what went on in Australia. I mean, you couldn't follow it, so it's kind of just read reports. But now you can hear and you know what's going on and you can see highlights and all the rest of it.

So I tend to keep tabs on what's going on, and you get to know all the players and see what they do. You know, so yes, I do, I do follow it. Let's go back to school then. And my experience of a public school, maybe 10 years after you, I guess, was that if I thought I'm going to have found a rock band and I'm going to play rock music at school, I'd have been seriously frowned upon

how was it for you because that's where Genesis began after all at Charterhouse. Was there that sort of feeling about it? It wasn't encouraged at all but they tolerated it. There were two or three bands who played while I was there

and obviously we formed what became Genesis there with Peter Gabriel and I were sort of good friends and we had Anthony Phillips who was the guitarist who was in guitarists in all the groups

really because he was the only one who owned a guitar which was quite a quite a good good thing but he was a fortunately very good guitarist as well and then later on we teamed up with Mike Rutherford who became obviously a founder member of Genesis yes so yes they didn't like us very much we went back there to rehearse one time and they said someone had said we could rehearse in their music room and we went back there and this chap walked in and he was extremely unimpressed yes what we're doing here all that stuff you know so no they didn't like it they wanted they were really trying to sort of create people to work in the sort of foreign

you know service diplomatic service and stuff rock music wasn't part of the thing and it's very unusual to be doing it it's very unusual for a group at that stage and it became our major thing they talked about us all the time was that we came from a public school but I mean because at the time there was very few people

nowadays of course the whole place is littered with them you can't move ex-public school people but it was so it became a bit of a thing there and of course poor old Phil who joined us Phil Collins later on he didn't go to public school nor did Steve Hackett who was one of the original sort of main members. So they got tarred with the same brush, which was a bit...

Oh, that's all good now. Yes, it is. Did you have any idea, any thought that they are, the three of you, and maybe a few more, in those school days, where music would take you? I mean, you were playing piano, weren't you, classical piano? Well, I was taught piano at school, and I was, you know, mediocre. But seriously? You've had no thoughts of a musical career?

Well, I was kind of... No, well, we used to play in the group, and that was great. great fun. We always had a dream sort of fantasies of being in a group, I suppose, but never thought that it would come to reality at that early stage. It was only really in the later 60s when the group started being successful and started going to concerts, you know, saw other groups play and realized that this could happen. But I was primarily interested in writing, as was Peter, where we wanted to write songs for other people, which is what we wrote songs, lots of songs, and couldn't get anyone else to do them. So they said to us, why don't

you do them yourselves. Right. And so that kind of started off that. And, you know, in those days, you could play all these little clubs all around the country, you know, for expenses, really. And you could build up a small following and learn how to do it. Yes. And did you get, were you broadcast?

I mean, what was the breakthrough moment for it? It wasn't sort of a John Peel discovery or something. John Peel was never very keen on us, actually. Oh, isn't he? Yeah, we had a concert. It was that we played. I remember we supported. Roxy Music, one of their first shows.

Well, maybe they were supporting us. I can't remember. We played a place in Wimbledon called The Hobbit's Garden. Right. But it makes a sign. And John Peel came down. It must have been they were on first because he came down.

We were quite exciting, as John Peel say, you know. And after Roxy Music says, he went home. So that's what he thought of us. And a lot of people... Well, he'll never know what he missed. I don't think he knew. He was tolerant of us, but he didn't. He didn't really.

We weren't kind of his kind of thing. We were a little too kind of... A little too fiddly for him. I think. Yeah. And you meanwhile, you have played your classical piano, but you obviously went electric. Yeah. Well, the look of it, but so there's early keyboards that you were playing.

Well, in the first... Back in those days, it did resemble anything like the sort of things that you see on stages now. No, back in the school group, it was piano. And then once we decided we were going to try and play live, we went out and we bought an organ. Hammond organ, yes. We would have a couple of sports. speakers and just enough so the group could perform. And I learned how to play it.

Initially, I just started playing piano on the organ, which was okay. And then I found if you hold your hands down, it lasted longer. And I did a bit of that. And then later on, we had a problem when original guitarist Anthony Phillips left the group. We had to go on the road as a four piece. And I had to learn how to play his parts on a piano through a fuzzbox to create a guitar sound and play the two parts at the same time. so that whole idea of playing more than one instrument at the time came at that point.

And, you know, after that, things sort of developed, I suppose. But it was, and then we got another guitarist, obviously, Steve Hackett came in, and the group sort of, you know, grew a lot more in stature. But, you know, we didn't really have what you might call a real hit until we've been going about 10 years in 1978 with Follow You Follow Me, which was when we were down to a three piece. One of the great songs, too. Oh, that's a great song.

Thank you for saying, though. Well, that's just one that everyone knows, isn't it? Well, it's one, it became famous, and I think it helped us a lot because we were kind of quite a, our music was quite involved, and we liked doing that, lots of long songs with lots of chord changes and interesting lyrics and stuff. But we always liked the simple stuff as well, and we just came up with this piece, and it sort of just worked, you know, and it obviously doubled our audience overnight and it became, you know, it totally moves us on to another level. Yeah, it's that break, isn't it? That one moment that can, in whatever your game is, it's just transformed it. Well, it does. It was a very crucial moment in time, actually. And you wrote that? We wrote it together. It was a group song.

Yeah, I mean, I want to over-emphasise my contribution. We all wrote it together, and it was something just evolved in the studio, and we decided not to kind of make it too elaborate, because in the past we'd have probably added bits here and there and everything. I thought this sounds really nice like it is, let's leave it. And that's what we do. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge, perfect for the ultimate defender.

The high-performance Defender Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D dynamics air suspension. Learn more at landrover.ca. Is there sort of a hierarchy in that situation? Is there some sort of hierarchy? I mean, is it, I don't know, is it, what role is the lead singer play? Is he, who actually really runs it when you are producing a piece of music like? We were always very, very, you know, all of us equal in the group, and that's how we did it really. We wrote together and, you know, people would suggest ideas and everyone could, it came up for discussion.

We did or whatever, we just played. and everybody contributed to the final result. Obviously, some songs, some people were more involved with than others. That's how it worked. In terms of the lyrics, you know, in the early days, we sort of had them, we all wrote the lyrics. Peter got more into wanting to write the lyrics because he was singing the things

and he thought he wanted to sing about something actually understood. So when we did our last album with him, the Landlazana Broadway, he wrote all the lyrics, really. And that was fine, but, you know, I enjoy writing lyrics. It's not why I'm in the business, but I like, you know, I've enjoyed that aspect of it Does something just come, bang You might be driving in the car or mowing the lawn

Or do you rush off and quickly scribble something down? Not really, no lyrics always take a bit of work Even the piece always says it always takes work I mean it's one of those things You know, sometimes you have an idea and it comes very quickly But a lot of the time you've got a melody You've got a chord and you've got the whole piece And then you have to write the lyrics to go with it

And what you try and do with the lyric is not to spoil what you've already written. So sometimes some of the best lyrics don't have too much meaning in them. But I couldn't stop myself sometimes. I'm a bit of, I like to try to put meaning in them. And sometimes that can be not the right thing to do. Yeah. And tinkering, too, I guess.

Oh, we tinker, we always tinker. Once you've got a thing on tape, he was always fiddling with it all the time. I've got a point. That's it. I'm stopping now. Well, we do. We go in the studio and you put the thing down. That sounds really good.

Well, a bit of guitar here, a bit of keyboard there. Sometimes you ever do it. But we look quite good at, particularly in later years, of Genesis we got very good I think of just doing what was required rather than everybody trying to get their bid in you know which was the problem perhaps when you have five people in the group it was more difficult to do that yes

I just want to say I played here you know I've played here outside yep I've played here but not cricket we did a festival well it was a festival it was a one off one day thing I think actually where we supported the who were the top band I think and there was a group of focus were on it

who a good group at the time I can't remember anybody else who was on it Some reason I think Fairport Convention were but I can't remember What sort of year was this? 71, 72 Right

And at the time it wasn't It was a bit less plush than it is now If we would have been And the grass wasn't as green As you remember that Almost unheard of having pop concerts Of cricket grounds in those days

It's very popular now Yes I know We have played We've played the rugby ground at Twickenham Which we did on the 2007 tour And we've done Old Trafford Football Ground in Manchester as well So we've done a few of these

things. What's it like? I mean playing outside must be completely different to inside, isn't it? Or you're wearing headphones and things so you can hear what you're all playing anyway? Well in later years you wear but no but you have stuff behind you so you make certain you can hear it. It is a different experience I think really it's the audience can't hear you quite as clearly

I suppose but it becomes more of a celebration I think and when you're playing to 100,000 people it's a whatever and it's a different effect it's quite a thrill really but it's a massive thrill isn't it? Well it is but I'm not really a lie I'm a writer. I never really intended to perform at all. I got caught up in that because the nature of groups, if you're a writer, you ended up being a performer as well. And anyone who's seen

us live knows that I'm not really what you might call a demonstrative performer. Well, I was told that. I'm known for my lack of movement. And I don't want to, you know, I'm almost fans to recognise me. So I carry on with that. I don't feel comfortable up there. But I have the advantage of having had, you know, wonderful people, you know, to communicate with the audience. originally Peter Gabriel and then Phil Collins they just have a natural way of communicating with an audience and I just said my job

that's why I see it when I'm on stage anyhow is to make certain that they sound good so make certain you don't make too many mistakes and try and get all the bits in the right order which not always happens of course no I mean if it takes the right way you do not look like a well-lived rock and rock star who's been out on the road

you're very well preserved let's be honest you are I'm not I mean I seem to be You know, quite a wild life. Maybe you did, but you're looking very good, isn't it? Well, it's very, very sweet if you were to say, Joe. Well, I don't know. I think it was not really a wild rock and roller, I suppose.

We weren't from the early days in the group. The whole band was quite family-orientated. We tended to take, you know, wives on the road and stuff like that. We sort of missed the whole point of rock and roll, I think, sometimes. That's not the sort of image that there is at all of these bands, thing. Well, we weren't the only one. There are other bands to it. Everyone likes to cultivate an image, you know.

Not everybody can be Keith Richard, you know. It's kind of like It suited us And the music we were playing Particularly well all the way through actually It's quite complicated sometimes And you really had to be on the ball You know you couldn't really sort of knock back

Three whiskeys before we're going on stage One maybe but not three And it's sort of so you had to keep Yeah I think I don't know It's it suited me I was just lucky that I could do this really

Yeah And going on stage Playing live to devoted and already won over fans must be a fantastic feeling, isn't it? It's better than when you're doing in the early days and they're not devoted, I have to say. Sometimes we played once or twice

and you played to an audience and they have no interest at all. I remember we finished one. We played a club called the Revolution Club. We did a residency where we were there to three sessions you played and we finished our first song and there wasn't a murmur from the audience.

Nothing at all. So we didn't quite want to do you carry on and then we just did our set and got our 10 quid one time so you know obviously later on

people want to see you and so they forgive you and fill in all the gaps and all the must they forgive you whatever you do mistakes and all the rest of it yeah

and life on the road I mean okay you've painted quite a picture of sobriety there and well it's not all surprise I want you know but

but certainly focus and I mean you know people have this sort of image don't they do of cricketers as well on tour and everything else and what we do but it's hard work.

A long time, a massive commitment to be on the road too. It is hard. I mean, obviously it's hard work. You know, you're kind of travelling all the time and when you're not, you tend to get to, in the early days, you got to a place and then you had to do interviews and then you were getting up at 6 in the morning to catch a plane to sort of Philadelphia or something.

Yes. Set up that night, it'd be good to go. So half the time. Obviously later days, it becomes much easier, which is very nice. So, you know, you can much more relaxed, more time between shows, nicer planes and not much nicer hotels. So, you know, it's great.

But those early days, you kind of remember them. It's hard work, but then what most people do is hard work, you know, in their own fields. You had to be very committed. I suffer from a not liking flying, I have to say, which did spoil it quite a bit for me, but I sort of found out ways of working with it. I knew that if I wanted to do this, you know, have this kind of like. life, then I would have to just get used to the idea of flying.

What did you do? A lot of people out there don't like flying. How did you get over it? Well, it's frightened. You're sat there quietly and... Well, in the morning, you see, I mean, if I can, if we're not doing a show in the evening, I'll try and have a drink or something that helps quite a bit. But in the mornings, when we got up really early on and stuff, you couldn't. And sometimes, America, you're doing this, you know, three hops to get from one place to another and takeoffs and landing's the worst bit.

Well, I'm seriously quite terrifying. Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't good, I have to say. I don't know. But, you know, if I'm still here So obviously it survived at all If I could know that I was going to still be here I would have been much happier than I would Tell me about When the lead singer of a well-known band goes

Peter Gabriel goes And I mean I've got examples who I know Who Cornwell who have just actually been on to me today From Stranglers Roger Hodson from Super Tramp That must be presumably a big hit Isn't it? Because for everything else that goes on somehow that lead singer is the sound.

Well, he's becomes the focal point of the group. It was a double thing for me because Peter was sort of my closest friend at the time and everything. And it was, but it was kind of coming apparent that something had to happen. And we didn't really know what we're going to do, but we determined to keep going. So initially we auditioned lots of singers

to see what we could find a replacement. And then, you know, it became more and more apparent as we went through that when Phil was demonstrating the songs to the singers, that he was actually really good. Is that how it going over? But we didn't really think that he'd want to do it because he was the drummer and he loved drumming

and that was his whole life and everything. But then he said at one point he said, you know, why not let me have a go? And he did it on the record first of all, which was fine. And then he still thought live, will he want to do it live, you know? It was a very strange thing though.

He'd sort of, when I first went on stage with him singing, the very first show, I remember it, London, Ontario. And I looked up and I'm so used to seeing Pete there and being very confident in his little action. And Phil was up there a pair of wearing white dungarees it was kind of a strange moment

I thought this is really odd but then he started talking to the audience and the audience really warmed to him and really loved him and I knew at that moment this was going to be okay we'd done a record that you know had a lot of it was very popular you know and that that helped a lot

and it was a marvellous moment for me really that and everything and obviously Phil developed into a fantastic singer but you know he had to it was certainly two or three years before he was really kind of really there yeah I think of the pressure he must have felt first time I went out there and be Peter Gabriel or be compared with Peter Gabriel all those I was trying to work out a way of doing it Peter had done sort of a lot of things you costumes and we

had a visual show and we had to sort of work out in here he needed to feel to do something he was comfortable with and he did put a couple of things on he put on a raincoat and a hat on one song and a few other things nothing much you know but it was just the fact he his his voice was really good you know and I think it's just And the audience wanted to like us because he came from the group, you know. And we had to get another drummer to help us on stage, which was Bill Bruford, who was obviously he's been in Yes, and King Grimson. And that first tour, I think his presence really helped us because he had his own following.

Yes. So people would be out in the crowd all shouting, Bill, you know, and that helped us a lot. It isn't extraordinary that Phil Collins is sitting on your noses all the time. Well, we knew he was a singer, but we didn't think he wanted to be the singer, you know. That's the difference, really. and it was fortunately we had him because there's no way that any of the rest

was good had done it. I can't raise it. Are they similar at all? I mean, when you listen to Peter Gabriel and Phil Collins singing Genesis songs, you can shout at me, whatever, but this does seem to be a bit of a similarity in their voice?

Well, I think when you sing, the point is that the melodies and everything kind of creates a certain approach. So when you're singing a song that Peter used to sing, there is something definitely that's about it, I think. Yeah, their voices aren't wildly dissimilar. I mean, Phil's voices, you know, he developed this sort of more sort of shouty voice that developed in his later career, which was a bit unlike Peter,

because Peter's quite soft, mellow kind of voice, really. But they have certainly had ways of sounding like each other, and it was, you know, that was quite a good thing. It meant that Phil had sung sort of backing vocals on a lot of tracks, so his voice was kind of known to the audience as well. Right, yes. I must talk to you about your classical music now. Absolutely. Yeah, I'd love to, because I was listening to it this morning,

actually as I got up. That must be a challenge. Tell me how you do it. Tell me how you sit down with a blank score and you're now writing classical pieces for a classical orchestra. Well, I've already started with the piano or the strings synthesizers.

It's all done with synthesizers and I play and they get a thing thing I like and then I might start to embellish it and do various bits and pieces. It varies a little bit from the three records that are on there. But I'll talk about the third one really which was the one where I kind of had a large amount of the arrangement

which I did synthesized and made a pretty elaborate kind of template, which we worked from. I know, in fact, originally we used my piano parts that I did on. My original demos ended up as being the template for the whole piece and we put the orchestra to it, which was quite a nice thing to do, a bit like I'd done with Genesis. The other two records, to some extent, some of it was like that, but other bits were kind of that I had it used to someone to help me with the orchestrations

and sometimes their character is quite strong on the songs on the second record who was a guy called Paul Englishby who was actually a very fine composer in his own right and he helped me a lot I think on various bits and pieces you know and I mean I liked both ways of working really but what you hear on the records is in terms of melodies, chords, structure is all totally me. It's just sometimes you know the little embellishments come from elsewhere

sometimes bigger embellishments. Yeah and just the number of instruments that are involved Is that going on in your head when you're... I tend to build it up a bit, but a lot of instrumentation is defined by the chords you use and stuff so, you know, you play on a piano, I've got ten fingers, you know,

and you're playing all those things. And a lot of the times when you're writing for sort of string parts, they may be writing, you know, it'll be a chord so you may be writing for a lot of string players but it's fairly straightforward what they're going to play. It's more the little extra bits and pieces

that you add in there. I'm often on writing pieces, you know, you get little ideas of other melodies you could use and you put them in and you try them out. It's a great ability to be able to use to do it on a synthesizer. You know, Beethoven would have had a wonderful time doing all this stuff, but for us, mere mortals, we can do it that way and produce a result.

And, you know, when I listen back to the records after you had this put out this box set, I'm very pleased with them, really. I think they're good. You do have a slight problem with rock musicians doing orchestral music is kind of a bit of a cliche. And the trouble is the classical guys don't really like you because you're rock musicians, you shouldn't be doing this, you know.

And the rock musicians don't really like you either because the rock music, because it's got no drums, you know. Yes, of course. So they're thinking, what is this stuff, you know? You have to try and weave them into it a little bit. And quite a few people have followed me into this area. How do you come up? You must have created or worked upon thousands of tunes in your head

that you've actually created yourself. How do you keep finding new ones? Where do they come from? I mean, there's only surely a certain number of tunes and melodies. And listen to some modern pop music, you might well think they've explored all possibilities. But no, I kind of, I like to, and perhaps always go a little bit, you know, I like slightly unusual things sometimes. And it's not too difficult to come up with newish things, completely new or newish things. And, you know, I think, and people still do it.

Yeah. We've got our listeners, I mean, they'll be loving this. It writes Mark Eden, two of my life's loves. Test match special on Genesis. Tell Tony that Supper's Ready changed my life when I was 10 years old and introduced me to popular music. Is that one of your...

Well, Supper's Ready was the 25-minute piece, okay? That's the one, so probably... I mean, yes, it was from the period. It was a classic. And at the time, you know, it was very well received by, you know, the audiences, but nowadays it's a bit slightly forgotten because it's so long. is it nicer to hear how a piece of music can influence someone like that

I love all this because you know I don't tend to get recognised very often because I'm not as you pointed out I don't look like a faded rock star so when I do get stopped it tends to be by people who've liked what I've done so that's always quite nice that really in a way you know you know that I think the nature of Genesis is the people that we have people who really like what we do and people who really hate what we do because it's that the involvement the

perhaps sometimes people feel it's over-worked, particularly the early days. But it's, you know, that's what I do. From our point of view, it's not contrived or anything. It's just what comes out of us as individuals and as a group. And we really, you know, that's why I'm proud of what we've done. What are you most proud about it? What are you most proud about what Genesis has given to the music world? Well, it exists, I think, is always the thing for me.

I'm always amazed when I listen to a piece of music that I had anything to do with it, you know. I don't know. You do, do you very much say. Well, it is a thing. You listen to that, and particularly with these orchestral pieces, which really only exist totally because of me. And you think, where did this come from, really?

And you hear the result, and you think, well, that's really good. I don't know. It's, what is one most proud of. I mean, I think the longevity is one thing, I think, with Genesis. And we went through quite a few sort of changes of personnel, of style, perhaps. But in the end, I think we, you know, it's kind of worked all the way through. played Land of Confusion, which was a hit.

It seems recent, but of course it's not. It's about 20 years. 30, I don't hold, it is awfully old. That's the other thing. I mean, we had a good time in the 70s, 80s and 90s, really. We were a big group. I just wonder what the music world would have missed without Genesis. Oh, it's difficult to know, really.

Peter and Phil, probably more than anything else, because they have fantastic solo careers after us, you know. So I think it's, you know, we've contributed. But, I mean, I've always great believe. that without you that have got somebody else. I'm afraid that also applies to you and it applies to me. It applies to everybody. So if you're not there, no one

knows you're not there. It's been lovely to meet you too. And thank you for coming in. And thank you of being such a loyal listener. I am a loyal listener. And you've got, well, there's so many people who just love sitting back and rolling back the years of Genesis. Thank you for all that you've done. Well, for music too, and still continuing to do. Okay, thank you very much.

Love it to meet you, John. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.