Test Match Special - Voices of the World: Fazeer Mohammed

Episode Date: November 24, 2020

West Indies commentator Fazeer Mohammed talks to Jonathan Agnew about his broadcasting career, the day he sang a calypso on TMS and how his family are Brian Lara's electricians!

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. Hello, this is Jonathan Agnew and welcome to the second in our series of Voices of the World as we chat to some of Test Match Special's friends and colleagues from around the globe. We hear the stories of how they got behind a microphone and find out just what Test Match Special means to them. Today is a real treat so we head out to the West Indies, Trinidad specifically,

and catch up with a TMS favourite who over the past few years has seen some amazing, moments in Caribbean cricket, and he's responsible for one of the most iconic pieces of commentary from the last 10 years. Got him! Why did he do that? Unbelievable! Yasserh wins the match, wins the series for the first time for Pakistan. Poor old Gabriel, Fazir. Love you to have you with us. That was just, I could listen to that.

It's like people saying about me and the Lego, all I could listen to that forever. I could listen to that forever because the pain, the torture, and yet it's so funny at the same time. Indeed, it's Agas. It's great to be with you once again. But, yeah, I mean, this thing has taken a life of its own, as much as I would wish that it didn't happen that way.

And Paul, Shannon Gabriel, has to be reminded about it over and over again. But, yeah, it's something that he certainly remember. Has he heard it? Have you talked to him about it? No, I haven't. I'm not brave enough to, although he's a pretty gentle giant. I would never think of even approaching him on that particular issue. But I understand he took it pretty badly, which is what you could understand. But as I said, he's moved on from that.

And I think one of these days, when we're two grey beards and so on, I'll probably ask him the question. and maybe after a fantastic spell of bowling when he's cleaned up somebody. Who knows, my next England are in the Caribbean, and then I'll ask him the question. He's a fellow Trini anyway, isn't he? He is, but that doesn't say a lot, depending on how things go. Because the relationship between commentators, broadcasters, journalists, and players at times isn't always the best. But in fairness to him, he's always been pretty easygoing when he's approached. Yeah, sure.

What was going through your mind then? I mean, I mentioned the torture and the pain. It was, if people haven't seen it, it was an utterly appalling shot. I mean, you set the scene. It was, what, two balls to go or something, to save the game, or something ridiculous? It was actually the last ball of the penultimate over, because it was the last ball to be bowled by Yashdie Rishah in the series. And at the other end, you've got Rosten Chase on 100.

So essentially, it was surviving that one delivery and let Rosten Chase play out for a draw. And, well, we know what happened. He had a massive swiped. That's what happened, didn't he? Yeah, and I suppose you've got that instinctive reaction. Why did he do that? But then you've got to remember you're a broadcaster for the entire world, not just the Western days.

And I think it's about pausing to capture the moment properly and ensure that it doesn't come around as just some jingoistic sort of issue and you're all about the Western days and so on. And I think that has always been something that I've tried my best to do, whether radio, television or in writing or whatever it is, more or less taking a page out of the massive book of Tony Cozier and try to be as professional as possible. I wonder what he might have said.

He wouldn't just have said bold him, would he? Probably, and he might have said something, oh, my word, or maybe something along that line, maybe far more cultured than what I would have offered. Yeah. But you're a colourful nation over there, Fazir. You're very emotional in the way that everyone in the Caribbean and supports and loves cricket, it's good to get a bit of emotion out there.

I think it is, and I think one of the good things of being from the Caribbean is the contrast, and I think that's the beauty of being involved as a broadcaster in different parts of the world or right here in the Caribbean when other nations come visiting. Because you hear the contrast of the voices, not just the accents, but the styles. It presents a different perspective, different pictures. And yes, we're very excitable, we're very noisy, we're up and. down, very emotional about things. I just think it adds to the flavor of the entire experience.

I don't think by any stretch of the imagination, we'd all want everyone to sound the same way, whatever part of the world you're in. Yeah. I think if I'd heard that with no accent, I think I'd probably have gone for a Caribbean commentator, though, because you do have that passion, and you do let yourselves go, and you do have that color, maybe some of us over here a bit more restrained, perhaps. I don't know, but it's the way you play your cricket. Indeed it is.

And the interesting thing about it is that when I actually first started getting involved in commentary, I was criticised quite a bit for going on too much about mango trees and birds and Saturday morning markets and so on. And I say, well, hang on, when you hear Henry Blofeld going about the red bus going down the Harleford Road and say, oh, that's absolutely lovely to hear Henry going on about butterflies and whatever, I say, what about us? So, you know, it's always that contrast and indeed TMS has been the standard for us in the Caribbean for such a long time that you're always measured by that, sometimes a bit unfairly, but that just goes with the territory. Yeah, it's a very good point you make.

I mean, there is so much colour about watching a cricket match in the Caribbean, isn't it? I mean, at your own Queens Park, although I've not been there for a while, we seem to have avoided it for some reason, but the candy floss salesman and the fellow blowing his conch shell and all of that. I mean, that's such a part. It's a wonderful place to commentate. It is. And I think that really is the luxury we enjoy as commentators, broadcasters, in this particular sport. It might not be the same for T20 or WANDe to Nationals because it's all a bit rushed. But when you're in a test match or a first class match and the game is just meandering along,

well, that's it. The world is your stage. You could talk about everything on the face of the. the earth. You can talk about the nuts vendors not doing a particularly good trade because there aren't many spectators around. You can talk about the flavor of the snow cone today is the gover syrup giving you the real flavor of the goaver that you'd like. So it is about painting that picture and creating not just the image, but the smell and the taste and the sounds of Caribbean cricket. You're taking me there, the pumpkin soup. Anyway, you've got to be drooling.

How did you get into it all, Fuzzi? I mean, were you a cricketer? I tried to be. I grew up in a cricketing family. My father was absolutely nuts about the game. And inevitably, I grew up in the game because I was a scorer at his club and would be really following the game intensely from that point onwards. And even though I'm a natural right-hander, I grew up learning the game left-handed, bowling

left-handed, batting left-handed. because my dad was a natural left-hander. So it created some pretty weird situations where people would see me chasing after the ball and throwing it in right-handed, thinking I was ambidextrous, but it was only because I'm a natural right-hander, but ball left-handed and so on.

But, yeah, I grew up in the game. I had aspirations, of course, of playing for Trudidad and Tobago at the highest level, hopefully playing for the Western days. I had my dreams and I had my thoughts of being the next great left-arm spinner to come out of Trinidad and Tobago. Never happened.

I wasn't good enough. if I made it into the national under-19 team for the Western East tournament of 1983, just for one match. And that was it. And essentially, I potted about a bit as far as my academic career. I messed up my A-levels,

having earlier messed up my O-levels. And from that point onwards, I think I reckon, I wanted to be involved in sport, and that's why, because of my background in the game, I got my first opportunities doing radio commentary when I joined one of the local radio stations and things develop from that point onwards. Sounds very familiar about the exams failing due to playing cricket and so on.

I wonder, do you think you'd been a better bowler if it's David, if your dad had your bowl right on then? I might have been, but I just don't think I had the instinct to really, I didn't have that competitive edge, I didn't have that self-belief. And in fact, as we're talking about it, I'm reminded that for that first series of 1983 where we played the Western East Youth Tournament in Jamaica, for the first match, against the Windward Islands. I wasn't picked in the fine 11 and I breathed a sigh of relief, whereas someone else was left out, was bitter about it, about being left out. And I kind of

recognized over the years that I really didn't have that competitive drive that would have seen me be successful. And it's just the way it is. I don't think I had what it takes to be a top level international cricketer by any stretch of the imagination. It might make you more of a sympathetic, empathetic commentator, though, the fact that if you have that frailty, that's what you want to call it, or put that word into your mouth. But, you know, if you see somebody struggling under the spotlight, for instance, does it make you a little more sympathetic towards them, maybe? Sympathetic and empathetic. I'd like you to tell those two words to Karen Paula, because I remember him coming to an event of our coaching clinic that we have in my local area here in San Juan

in Trinidad. And I gave him this flowery introduction for. the benefit of the students and so on. And when he stepped up, he said all the things that I would have said about him, very caustic and uncomplimentary as a commentator. He was wondering if it was the same Kairn-Pollard I was speaking about. So I think empathetic wouldn't come to mind with a lot of Westernish cricketers hearing my commentary. Fair enough. So when was the first one then?

You mentioned you slowly got into the job of opportunities come along of local radio and so on. But can you remember the first proper you're there in the hot seat and you're actually commentating on the game of cricket for the first time? I remember it perfectly. It was 1992, a regional first-class competition, Trinidad and Tobago versus Barbados. Always an intense rivalry. Brian Lara, Phil Simmons, part of the Trinidad and Tobago team. Otis Gibson with Barbados.

He took seven wickets on that opening day. Lara scored 100. Phil Simmons scored a half century. But interestingly, having begged my sports editor at Radio Trinidad to be given an opportunity to do commentary. I was actually, my very first stint and the first three days involved in the four-day match

was as an expert commentsman with no experience whatsoever because the ball-by-ball positions were already filled. Reds Pereira, of course, was well-known on the international scene and then still does a bit of work. Erskine King from Barbados

who was the visiting commentator and Dave Lammy from Trinidad and Tobago was my sports editor at the time. so the spots were filled. And I was there and I was being introduced and people are wondering who is this guy pretending to be an expert comments person.

But I managed well enough. And interestingly, I never felt nervous. I never felt anxious. I wasn't sweating profusal because it just seems so natural to be talking about the game, even if it was now in a proper broadcast format. And as fate would have it,

on the last day of the match, Reds had to leave early. Reds always has to go to something else somewhere in the Caribbean. He's always doing something somewhere else. And it actually allowed me the opportunity to fill in for him doing proper ball by ball commentary. And from that point on, Agass, I realized this was what I was born to do. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? And again, I mean, I'd love touring the Caribbean, but you're so aware of how many experts are out there. I'm thinking of how many people would actually think that they were brilliant

radio commentators themselves. You hear them doing it, don't you? It's all in the stands and, I mean, they say they took it very easily, but just to get that opening must have been a real bonus, in fact. It was. And I suppose it's about being in the right place at the right time, because now, sadly, radio commentary is virtually dying in our part of the world, as it has in many other parts of the world with television taking over. And you don't really get that opportunity as a young broadcaster anymore to hone your skills. in the regional game or the local club game as a broadcaster. And it was really about being in the right place, at the right time.

I had transferred from the Trinidad Guardian newspaper to Radio Trinidad. And as it turned out, Dave Lamie, who I had mentioned, he was on his way to another media opportunity. And that created a window for me to take advantage of. And it really was a bit of luck, a bit of talent, and really a mixture of both and taking advantage of it. Yeah. it is great fun there and there is that the politics like it is in all the Caribbean and the

different countries and so on it's there it's there in the radio commentary got to have someone from each particular country having you make sure that the home country is represented and so on that all of that goes on on a certainly on an England cricket tour that I'm aware of and I pop into the into the local box you know it's just tinkering away under the surface isn't it it's not tinkering under the surface at all it's right there in your face I mean, the stories you can, yeah, the stories you can tell, I mean, I would travel in those early years, as having started in 1992, you'd travel at your own expense to get opportunities to do commentary elsewhere in the Caribbean chain.

And I remember doing a match in Montserrat, the very last first class match played in Montserrat in 1994 before the volcano or the Lance of Rio properly erupted and destroyed much of the southern half of the island and as it turned out there was a real inter-island rivalry if you could think of it that being intense among the islands imagine what it's like in the leeward islands or the windward islands where they were they were really upset that there was no native of montserrat in the leeward island's team prior to that match so what the authorities did they named lesroy weeks the western is and the 19 fast bowler in the squad of 13 the crowd turned up and he was promptly left out of the final 11. And in protest, all of the commentators abandoned the commentary box in protest,

leaving me and an Englishman who was there doing some development work with some UNDP, whatever it is, doing commentary for four days by ourselves. And if that wasn't funny, he confused the six-foot-seven-inch Tony Gray with a five-foot-something Rajindra Danrad. and could not identify them. And I tried to paper it over. I was saying, yes, they're both wearing helmets and it's difficult to discern them. But it was an absolute riot,

but that gave you a sense of the politics. What a great story. Whatever happened to Lesroy? Did he ever make it or not? He played a couple of matches, but never really got the opportunity to properly develop. But, I mean, the intensity of those feelings, They have never diminished, even as the West Indies' fortunes would have declined so precipitously over the decades,

that intensity is still there. You'd still sit in a taxi in Bridgetown and only hear about Barbados players. You'll be in the market in Grenada, and you'll think that every single Grenadian cricketer deserves to be picked ahead of everyone else. That's just the way it is. I was there in Barbados for the first match against South Africa when there wasn't a Barbadian playing. no come-ins, no-go-ins, Anderson Cummins, the one Bayesian who might have played. They left him out, and no one went to the game.

And it was a terrific game of cricket, of course. With the West Indies winning on the last day, we'd look to this, Africa, were going to win. And I'll go back to the hotel every night, and the waiters would be there. What did you know what the score was? And that was it? And they boycotted the match.

Yeah, and again, it is a really emotive place when it comes to cricket. I recall Derek Murray, being left out of the West Indist team for the first time in several years. for a tour of Pakistan and then for the following series against England. And there were protests outside the ground. Someone poured oil on the pitch, it delayed the start of the match.

And you had a committee being formed, the committee in defense of Western East Cricket, led by trade unionists and so on. It all gets very proper and very formal and so on. So it's not something to be taken lightly. And if you pretend to take it lightly, you really get to get the thin end of the wedge very very easy. So you really are walking a tightrope. And we will talk about Tony Cosio properly now.

But did you, I mean, he must be such a big influence on you, I guess, Fasio. But did you try and copy him? Did he deliberately not try and copy him? What did you learn from Tony? I think I learned a lot as far as just sitting side by side with him when I actually got into the business as a general. and a broadcaster, just chatting with him about the game. And as you said, correctly, listening to him,

and not just listening to Tony Kosia, but listening to all of the big names. The first series that really caught my year was 1975, 76 in Australia. And just as an 11-year-old, the fascination of hearing someone saying, well, it's a lovely, glorious sunny morning here at Melbourne for the Boxing Day Test match, 90,000 people there. And it's pitch black in the Caribbean because it's in the middle of the night. and it just seemed to be a totally different world

and to hear those pictures being painted by Alan McGilvery and Tony and so many others. It just seemed fascinating. And it was about not so much copying Tony or copying John Arlott or anyone else, but just trying to find your own voice, but understanding that these were the gentlemen who set the standard that you should try to emulate.

Yeah, and very traditional. I mean, he gave me really, I think, possibly the only real commentary lesson that I ever had and that he sat me down in my very first year and said, right, because West Inders were here

in 91 when I started. And he said, you always start with the run-up, bowl is running in, they have the bowler bowls and you have to say, if it can, the batsman's staying there,

so Jones bowls to Smith and Smith does that. So the focus changes onto the batsman. So if Smith is then bold, Smith is then caught, Smith plays a beautiful cover drive or something.

You've totally established the batsman and what he's doing, It's not just the case of the bowler bowls, and there's a scream of bold him or something. He was so regimented into getting that absolutely basic, but essential timing right. So you get the picture of what's happening. And I remember very clearly him sitting me down and telling me with that. Richards gets a full toss and hits a six over square leg.

Full toss, Richards, 138, not out. And of course, Tony was so well. welcomed on test match special. He just seemed to fit. As you do, Fazir, I mean, did you find it a bit intimidating when he first appeared on test match special? Very intimidating because, I mean, here I am. No, I think it might have been the 1999 World Cup when I got the opportunity to do some commentary

there, to actually be in the same environment of so many of the great voices in the game. So it was tremendously intimidating, but also very welcoming. I mean, everyone around yourself and so many others involved in the team made you feel very, very welcome. But it was tremendously intimidating. And remember, I would have to be aspiring to this post for a long time. And as brutal as it was sound, I had to wait for Tony Kosia to no longer be around to get the opportunity. Because, I mean, who replaces Tony Kosia? No one.

And even in late 60s into his 70s, he was still the distinctive voice of Western East. cricket. So I had to wait my turn. And that only created greater levels of anxiety. But I have to say, when you finally settle down and realize that it's just a bunch of mates, enjoying the game, describing the game, ensuring that you're as professional as possible. But still having quite a bit of fun, it's been a thoroughly engaging and wonderful experience. Well, you're pretty relaxed at Headingley in 2017, Fasier, because you gave us a touch of Calypso. A lovely day for cricket, Blue skies and gentle breeze. The Indians are waiting now to play the West Indies.

A signal from the umpire plays about to start. Here comes Chase. As he bowls to Milan and he's playing it back along the pitch. The Indians come out on the field. They all look very smart. Irapali Prasana, Gigi boy, and Wadeka, Krishna, Murthy, and Vishnu mankad. Them boys could real play cricket.

on any kind of wicked, they make the West Indies team look so bad. We were in all sorts of trouble. Joey Carew, he pulled a muscle. Clive Lloyd got about three run out. We were in trouble without a doubt. It was Gavaska, the Railmaster. As Chase comes in again, bows outside the off-stop and lets it go by through to the keeper. The railmaster, just like a wall, they couldn't out Gavasker at all.

Not at all. You know, the West Indies couldn't out Gavasker at all. Asker at all, 146.5. Can you believe you did that? You know, I just wanted to put down my microphone and leave after that because I know I could never match that at any other point in my by broadcasting career. We talked about change, though, and actually it was at Queens Park some time ago now. What was the year when the Jamaica test match was cancelled and we had two staged at Trinidad instead?

We're going back well into the 90s now. But anyway, I remember Peter Baxter, producing then, said to me, how are we going to make this second test match here at the same ground, back-to-back, sound different? And I said, well, I've been working next door on the commercial station locally here with a woman called Donna Simmons. And there's been all this talk about when will the first woman ever appear on test match special and everything else. I said, I reckon she's absolutely perfect for it. She's the one, A, to break the mold and to establish that actually women can commentate just as equally well as men can.

and she's good enough and I said just check with Vic Marks who's actually sort of working alongside her I was just listening to a sort of five minutes at the takeovers and so on and so it was there at Queen's Park where the first woman commentated on test match special it was Donna and she's working in the next door box

and now happily thanks the example that she's set we've got many more women commentating on the game here is Fraser he's on his way he's over the wicket bowling to the left-handed Clayton Lambert and Clayton Lambert has hit this high in the air He should be out now. He'dley's coming under it and will take the catch. Yes, he does. He falls in the process. His elbows go on the ground. But he takes the catch and Clayton Lambert has been dismissed as he was looking to hook that through midwicket.

And the ball going high in the air, taken by Headley, a running catch from Midon. That was 1998 that series that you referred to. And indeed, I first heard Donna and the first time I actually traveled out of. Trinidad to do coverage. It wasn't radio, was writing for the Trinidad Guardian newspaper, 1987 at Kensington, Nova. And I heard this female voice. And again, it sounds all pretty chauvinistic now, of course,

but you're almost taken aback by a female voice talking cricket, but she knew her stuff. She's always known her stuff. And I'll have to acknowledge that she really had to endure lots of snide, snide remarks and comments. It must have been terrible. I mean, there's chauvinism at the time in, It was such a male-dominated sport, wasn't it?

It was unbelievable. And I'll have to say that while I didn't participate in it, cowardly, I didn't discourage it because I was trying to make my own way. And I just simply saw it as competition and whatever it was. But really, some of it was really terrible. It was unbearable to hear the comments being made about someone who was just doing her job to the best of her ability

and doing a very good job at it as well. Yeah, I've got a huge amount of respect for Donna, for the way she did that. And then, of course, but yes, for being a bit of a trailblazer. Now, look, we can't talk to you, Fasier, there in Trinidad without talking about. Is he still the king of Trinidad, I guess he is? One Brian Charles, Laura. Are you a fan? I mean, how did you cope with commentating, given again, we go back to how sort of tightly and intimate your countries are with one of them, how proud you are.

of your own space, your own country and so on. How did you manage to commentate impartially on Brian Lara? I'll have to say that it wasn't that difficult because I actually wouldn't be correct to say I grew up with Brian because we're four years apart, but we were both at the Queen Spark Cricket Club. We actually were at the crease a couple of times together playing for the Queen Spark seconds and so on before. Of course, he shot onto the first team and then Trinidad and Tobago and West Indies and so on.

But even with that proximity, I am one of the few in my profession, certainly in my part of the world, that I was liberated from that fear of criticism and being replaced or getting gotten rid of because I didn't support my own and so on. Because I had the benefit of another profession, which is our family business. We're in the electrical business. We've been involved in that business for some 50 years. And my brother always reminds me that this pretense of,

boldness and impartiality and speaking my mind and not being afraid to criticize a Brian Lara or criticise of Phil Simmons to the point where he banned me from interviewing the team on the toe of Australia in 2015 that alleged bravery is only because I've got another job to fall back on. And he said the day that they decide to fire me as a director from the family business, he wants to hear me speak as boldly as I would normally on air. So it didn't, never really was an issue, Agas. I always, and I had that argument many times with colleagues on air and off air because I never saw my job as I'm a chairleader for Trinidad de Bego or the West Indies or Brian Lara or anybody else, which is why Kairn Pollard can make a comment

when I introduced him in that flattering manner as to wondering whether it was a case of mistaken identity. Lara drives in the air and is caught at extra cover. And just as you were talking about Lara playing with increasing freedom and wanting to get a useful innings he gives it away, driving at a delivery that he was never really to the pitch of and offering a simple catch

to Hasebel Hussein at extra cover. Because it was difficult with Brown and it must have been because he was a controversial figure, wasn't he? And was he a good captain? I think many people will say that actually his management skills are appalling and that a lot of the issues

surrounding West Indies cricket when he was in charge, but we're down to him. But whether you believe that or not, it's up to you. But it can't have been easy within Trinidad to have been critical of Brian Lauer. It wouldn't have been easy, but you've got to tell yourself, you know, there's something more important than saying the popular things, Agas. And in fact, for a number of years, I've been doing a column in the Trinidad Express newspaper, started in 2005.

And I remember one of the early ones I wrote after he, He had had a fantastic series in Pakistan, turned out to be his last test series because he left shortly after with the World Cup in 2007. And the headline was, great batsman, poor leader. And the comments I got about that, I was shell-acted from pillar to post. How dare I say that about the Prince of Port of Spade.

What sort of triny am I? Is it because I'm an East Indian and I don't like the African element because there's also the politics that's tied into it? But quite frankly, I couldn't be bothered because the numbers are there. He's a poor leader because he just was so enveloped in his worth as a batsman. Is he still around? Do you see him around?

Well, actually, I've seen him around a lot more over the last couple of years because he's actually patronized our business doing some refurbishment on his home up at Lady Chancellor Hill. But he spent so much So you're up there No, I actually went The first time I actually went up there, Agas was just a couple months ago to collect a check from his sister because he's somewhere in India

or some other part of the world with some work that we had done and so on, the electricals at his home. But yeah, it was the very first time I had gone up to the home because maybe something about my character but I just never want to be seen as one of those hangers on

one who would say, well, you know, I was at Brian Lara's home and I sat at his table and had dinner with him. Really couldn't be bothered because I think that sort of proximity creates some difficulty when you've got to say it as it is. Yeah. The politics of your part of the world always intrigues me, Fazier. In that really robust, incredibly powerful West Indies team, we've talked about it from 80 through to the mid-noughties and so on, it was largely Afro-Caribbean, wasn't it?

And you had your Roman Caneis and others who were there sort of passing through. then it seemed as if there was a real switch down south, down to your part of the world, where it was actually a much more sort of Asian influence and the whole, the actual start of cricket seemed to change as well, more spin bowlers, slower pitches and so on. There was talk of the Afro-Caribbeans and the north, the fast bowlers, rather turning their back on the game

and going off and doing other things. But now, having seen, of course, our last summer here, it looks as if it's sort of switched back again. and it's big, fast bowlers. Do you sense that over there? You know, it's always interesting, I guess, when we hear these different perspectives, we've heard it for decades about

we've lost so much talent to U.S. basketball and other U.S. sports and so on. The thing is, and I'm sure you've been to the Caribbean so many times, but even then, it's difficult to get a real handle on what the Caribbean is all about. It's a mixture of races, a mixture of ideologies, a mixture of political perspectives.

We always have to remind people when we talk about the UK or Scotland, England, Wales and those sorts of rivalries, just multiply that many times over when you talk about the identity of our Caribbean territories and the issues which sometimes take over. And in reference to the likes of a Daren Ganga, a Dinnanath, Ramnerin, a Dynish Ramdin, a Ramdin, a Ramneri, Sarwan, a Shivneri, Chandipo. You have a West Indies team where you have five players or six players. all of East Indian descent when previously you'd have hardly seen any one of them that might have had to do with the pitches because for a long time, the pitches were very tired, very lifeless.

But it also has to be said that we were in a trough of complacency for a very long time, almost convincing ourselves that this was all some global conspiracy to beat Western Easton's cricket down, not realizing that we just took our eyes off the ball and was so complacent believing

we'd always produce these, great cricketers, that we didn't put the work in. And now you're seeing these young fast bowlers, the Shamar holders, and so many others, come to the four. You've got the veteran, like a Kim Rooch, who did his damage to England last year, that they've always been around, but it's been sort of taken for granted. Now, finally, you're seeing the work being put in, and they are coming to the four once again. Okay, so it might be a situation where players of Eastern Indian descent might seem to be pushed out,

but I don't see it that way. I think whoever are your best players, whether they be all East Asian, Chinese, African, whatever it might be. And there will always be that complicated mix that you've got to get. But because of the way the Caribbean is, you're always going to have so many players of African descent dominating the team simply because they are the majority in the population. Yes. And Jason Holder, what an incredible young man I think he is, the sticker he had and must have had from, Throughout the Caribbean, he was such a young man when he got that very difficult job. But I have to say, last summer and actually before that, on the last tour of the

Caribbean, as a visitor and as someone who doesn't see your team that often, you can really see some big steps in progress being made now, and that must encourage you. Well, the fact that he's still in the job is a testament to him, because, as you said, the abuse that he would have had to take on, whatever you got there in the international news wires or the reporting or whatever, just multiply that at least 10, 15 times to understand that everywhere you go, as Jason Holder, in a struggling West Indies team with the Dave Cameron presidency of cricket West Indies and all the controversy attacked to that as well, being accused as Darren Sammy was previously of being a yes man to the board and that, oh, you're from Barbados

and you know Barbadians are normally happy to bow down to the white massa and all that sort think all of that attached to it. Yet at the end of it all, you see him now, someone who's confident of his skills as a cricketer, as a leader, someone who can deal with any issue that comes up in the media and so on. I think he's advanced way beyond his year simply because of what he had to endure here in the Caribbean. Yeah. And are you positive, Fasier, but you're going to be commentating on some good times for the West Indies in the future? Not really all that positive That's so West Indian

That is so Caribbean That is so Caribbean I suppose it is But I mean On what do we base to the optimism Because yeah Won the first test match At Southampton

But then capitulated so badly In the remaining test matches And then you hear the same old excuses Are being thrown up Maybe for the T20s Because that seems to be our natural game And that might even make it That much more difficult

In the test game to really build our focus once again. But you live in hope because that famous victory at Headingley, the win at Southampton, beating Pakistan a couple of times, once in Sharjah. So there are more encouraging signs now, but I still think that because so many of our players gravitate towards T20,

that is now an additional challenge when you're trying to keep players, young players especially, focused on test cricket. So it's going to be tough for a while still. Well, look, before you go, what's your career highlight being up one day? For England listeners, you're on air for a very special moment

in 2017 that we can hear now. Anderson, bows to Bradford. Bowling! That's number 500 for Jimmy Anderson, the first Englishman to reach the landmark. It's taken maybe a bit longer than you would have anticipated. But Jimmy Anderson has reached 500 in chess cricket The first to do so, a tremendous performance from the Lancasterian, 500 test wickets.

Great stuff. What a moment. Have you got a particular favourite, Fasier? I suppose when you think about it, Brian Lara famously winning a test match for the West Indies and Barbied us when the West Indies chased down 311. He got 153. The West Indies winning by one wicket. And there have been quite a few tremendous finishes. But just on that situation with the Jimmy Anderson, get very nervous because you know there's a moment of history coming up. And because you're a West Indian, you don't want to mess it up. You don't want to make an absolute hollocks of something that surely is going to repeat it over and over again so that people will say, who is this fool making a mess of this tremendous historic moment?

So you do get a bit anxious, but I think it helps that you grow up in the game and you realize that there are bigger issues than just your not. narrow Westernian perspective, and it helps to really capture a moment like that. Well, he did it brilliant, didn't a huge thanks to Fazia for joining us. And if you enjoyed this episode, look out for more over the coming weeks. And have a listen to the first interview in the series when we spoke to our old friend from Australia, Jim Maxwell. Make sure you miss nothing from Test Match Special by subscribing to the podcast on BBC Sounds.

Some podcasts are about the news. Some podcasts are about politics and science and history. But my new podcast for the BBC World Service is about losing the man I loved. It's called goodbye to all this, and you can find it on BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.