Test Match Special - What have we learnt about England?

Episode Date: September 14, 2026

Simon Mann is joined by Michael Vaughan, Sir Alastair Cook, Jonathan Agnew and correspondent Stephan Shemilt to discuss what we've learnt about England’s Test side this summer.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Growing businesses deal with the same problem. Too many tools, too much back and forth and not enough time. Odu helps bring it all together. It's an all-in-one business management platform, fully integrated from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, so your team can spend less time chasing information and focus on growth. Whether you're in retail, manufacturing or service,

Odo gives you one place to manage your business. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com. Get more with BBC podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like evil genius, good, bad billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts.

You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. The TMS Podcast, from BBC Radio 5. We're going to spend the next 25 minutes assessing England's summer where they started, where they are now. I think it's fair to say quite a bit has happened this summer, even if the cricket hasn't always been the most compelling at times. Lots going off the field, perhaps rather than on it. Alistair Cook is here, Michael Vaughn is here, Jonathan Agnew is here, and our cricket correspondent, Stefan Schemelt is here. Stefan, let's start with you.

Where do we start and where are we now? Well, I'll start with the end. If I told you at the beginning of the summer that by September, Joe Root would be England test captain and Kevin Peterson would be part of the England backroom staff. What would you have said? I thought quite a lot of happened. Yeah, well, it has.

It was only two months ago, and I think it's hard to remember this, given England sort of straightforward progress through this series. It was less than two months ago. Start of the summer holidays that England didn't have a captain or a coach. they still really haven't got their coach in place. But we started the summer with the Ashes Review, Brendan McCullum, Ben Stokes, Rob Key, all back to stay in their positions.

And when England won that first test match against New Zealand at Lords, I remember leaving Lords on quite a wet Sunday. The football World Cup was about to start. And I remember thinking, cricket's not going to be the story now for the rest of the summer. The football's going to start. Everything's going to be hunky door. England are going to sail through this.

How wrong I was, because it only took 24 hours. from that moment on to find out what had happened in the rec rooms. And that began that chain of events that led to Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson first missing the second test. Stokes coming back for the third test against New Zealand, retiring on that crazy Sunday at Trent Bridge. Two weeks later after that series that was lost, Brendan McCullum was sacked as the test coach. He remains as the White Bull coach. Then throughout that next little period, we had the hunt for a coach and a captain. Root is back as captain.

Stephen Fleming will become the test head coach, but that's not until December. He's due to arrive in the UK in the coming days to sort of prepare for his spell as the New England test coach. And then we've had this test series as well overshadowed a little bit by what happened with Bride and Carr's in the early hours of that Saturday,

Sunday morning in Derby. And while that has all been going on, the England T20 side have become the number ones in the world. I think they might have lost that place since then. And there's a pretty creditable series win over India. It's been incredibly busy and it feels like it's gone by in a flash. Yeah, indeed. Michael, hindsight is a fantastic thing.

But do you think, looking back at the summer, do you think England should have made a change, double change after the ashes? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think many said that at the time. You know, it felt like it needed freshening up after a really poor winter where the cricket wasn't right. the logistical side of the team wasn't right, selection wasn't right. Obviously, discipline was a problem with the team.

So, yeah, you would say that change should have happened. It didn't happen, but what came after has surprised me, shot me. I'd be interested if they'd have played Pakistan first, what would have been the scenario of the summer? Because, you know, we'll get onto where we're rating this England side and, you know, have they had a successful summer. Well, ultimately, they lost the series that was going to do. judged them this year, which was the New Zealand series at home on the back of losing in Australia.

They played Pakistan first. I'm pretty sure they won 3-0. You know, this Pakistan side is, as we keep saying, is a poor cricket team and you'd expect to beat them. And then they play New Zealand after that. I'd be interested to see where, you know, the leadership would be. So has the schedule done them a favour, actually, in a way? Well, yeah. Has it done them a favour? The only time we'll tell. You know, Ben Stokes is out of the England team and doesn't look like he's going to come back. He's obviously left for the captain. and he's decided to retire from international cricket, which shocked us all. You know, that's Sunday afternoon.

I think that Trent Bridge will live long in the memory. I don't think I've ever been involved in a, in an afternoon where so much happened from the resignation of Ben a statement to suddenly getting a wicket with his next ball, to suddenly he goes out to open the batting, that Emilio gave bat seven. They batted as as crackers that they have done for the previous few years. And we've had some, you know, some interesting times with the batting. hand under Bazma Cullen. Ultimately, I get a feeling that things happen for a reason. And I get a feeling with Joe Root as captain, Stephen Fleming as coach. I feel a little bit more settled about the test team.

I know this is a series that we can't trust the team on and there's going to be harder and bigger challenges going forward. But sense seems to have come back. Just a little bit of sense within the team and within the management. And that gives me a little bit more confident in particular test match cricket that we might see a more sensible approach moving forward. So what do you think what's the consensus here? I mean, in an ideal world, would Ben Stokes still be England captain or not, Jonathan and Alistair? Well, interestingly, I mean, I think it sort sums up the summer.

One of the most salient points in observations made about where England is now was made by Count Binface, who said, I wonder what would have happened if this team had played against New Zealand. And he's right. You know, it does feel, I mean, Michael, it does feel much, it does feel more settled. It feels more professional, feels more disciplined. And Stephen Fleming hasn't joined yet, and he is of that type. So I think England have got to a better place now.

Yes, it is hard to tell because of the Pakistan team and their situation. But look at the way that Harry Brooke has been batting, for instance. You know, and he did that at Headingley, did it here. Much more mature approach to batting, I thought. and one that's been lacking, and not just him, but just generally the lack of discipline, I think, in a way, looks even more sharper now when we see a more disciplined approach

than even it was at the time. Let's face it, alarm bells are ringing at the time, in Australia particularly, and then, of course, at the start of the summer, I mean, you couldn't have scripted what happened there, with the reset and everything else. You know, look back at it now, I think, it was just bonkers.

How did that all happen? Well, it did happen. And it rather, I think, shows the depth of the issues that there were. But it does feel, it does feel karma. It feels more professional and more discipline now. And that's thanks to largely to Joe Root. What about that question, Alistair, about Ben Stake's captain or not in an ideal world? The ideal world for the England's set up after losing the ashes was that he would go through, lead again, regroup.

And his final thing will be a year. would have been in a year's time and had a chance of putting what went wrong right the balance of the side is the one thing with Ben Stokes out of it how much he makes a difference to the balance of the side however what I've seen over the last couple of games is on this series it doesn't matter but he was such it became such a big personality in that side you know being the big the lead you know getting all the credit for when things went right as you do as a captain and and almost did he almost outgrow that side now looking back and whatever the power he kind of and the influence he had on the side as as players can have when they become this player who's

delivered in all these occasions all the big occasions and then and then it does did that hinder this side and that's so now looking back now the calmness that this side seems to go about the their business. It's probably worse for us as pundits because we actually now know how this England side's going to play. Where under Ben Stokes the last two years before that, we'd turn up

and when people said, what's your prediction? I gave up trying to make predictions to the general public. What do you reckon is going to happen? I couldn't tell you. Actually now, under Joe Rue and it's his character, isn't it? It's a lot calmer. And maybe that is going to be good for the side going forward.

I have to say I hope Joe Root has his moment next summer and he lifts the urn as an England captain. I would still love Ben Stokes to be the England captain though. But I'd love Ben Stokes to work with a Stephen Fleming or an Andy Flower. I've said it many times. You'd be able to? No, of course.

Because what Cookie was saying, no, I mean, you know, because he has become such a big character. Absolutely he could have done. I mean, he made the call. He decided to retire. So that decision was taken out of kind of the equation. but I absolutely think over the next year or so we'll have a moment where you look at this England Creek team at the minute

they've not been challenged yet and I want to see this team when it gets hot you know I'm not seeing conditions hot when the pressure's really on and you need someone to stand up under pressure and go all right I'll change the game for us I'm looking down at the minute and thinking who are those players now I'm sure some of these players will grow into that kind of role because they've certainly got the talent to do so

but let's not underestimate mate, how much Ben Stokes has done for the England Creek team over the course of many, many years. And how many times has Ben Stokes got England out of tricky positions against the better teams? Not against teams like Pakistan. So it's not going to happen. He's decided to move on. But I still would have loved to see. I've said it many times, you know, Yin and Yang is what you need in leadership.

And unfortunately, with Ben and Baz, it was yin and yin. And I'd love to see that Ben Stokes, the Yin'in. with a Stephen Fleming the Yang. And I think that would have been a great combination. It's not going to happen. And as we keep saying, this team at the minute looks like it's being operated with, we must mention Marcus Triscothic

because he's taken the interim coaching role and it's all been very smooth. So I think actually Marcus Triscoffit's stock over the last few weeks has gone up. You know, where he ends up, we'll have to wait and see. Whether he stays in this system, whether he goes to the lines,

whether he goes to a county. I'm not too sure, but I'd love to see Marcus Triscothic the next time round that we're talking about an England head coach. I'd love to see his name mentioned in the hat. Stefan, we know it was on Ben Stokes' mind when he went to Lords about standing down.

It didn't quite feel right. Do you think it was on his mind after the ashes? Do you think there was that sort of doubt about continuing after the ashes? I can only remember talking to him about it before the test match in Sydney and he dismissed it out of hand that once the ashes had been lost,

that it was only natural for a captain to think, am I still the right person for the job? and he just dismissed the idea that he would even consider his future. And then when he eventually came to explain the decision to stand down as captain and to retire, what he said was, well, I went back to, I went back home, I had lots of time to think. His injury happened with his eye. He thought more about it like that. And when he got to Lords for the first test match,

and lots of us thought there was something just not quite right, that was essentially Stokes already with these ideas in his mind and trying to get it back, really, that feeling about, that he wanted to keep doing the job and he wanted to be in the dressing room. And then the recs rooms happened. And then those thoughts about finishing, sort of came gushing out to lots of people and it almost happened. I think Cookie's point about Stokes as a personality and how that became essentially

the team is a really good one. And a couple of things can be true at the same time in that when we all left Australia, a lot of us thought, well, Ben Stokes should still be captain and Brendan McCullum and Rob Kear, the people who may be moved on. and it's fine to think that and I think it was right to think that in that moment but it's also okay to now look back at it and go

while actually maybe Joe Root is the best captain for this group of players because when Ben Stokes took over he had a lot of people who knew him while who were experienced Chris Wokes, Jimmy Anderson Stewart Broad Johnny Besto, all those guys who knew what he was like and knew what he was going to be for good and for bad now there's a lot of younger

players who I think maybe might have been in Ben Stokes' shadow and Joe Root can maybe get the best out of those with a calmer style of leadership. Let's not forget that very strongly worded tweet he put out as well, Stokes. I love this job and all that. I mean, that was in what March, was it? So then he was still clearly very much focused on continuing as captain.

Your sales order says one thing, your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com. Get more with BBC podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favorite shows,

like evil genius, good, bad billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. The TMS Podcasts on BBC Sounds. Okay, let's move on from Ben Stokes. Let's look at the makeup of the side. People were saying, and they have said it, Olly Robinson, where has he been?

I mean, again, it's easy to say with hindsight. But there have been cricketers in the past who haven't fitted in under some leadership structures, and then they flourished under us. You know, I can think of, well, Andy Caddick is one. Graham Swan is another who flourished after being given an opportunity. What about Ollie Robinson? And what about that situation? It made a huge change.

The whole wikikeeping thing has made a massive change, isn't it? And it makes him, in my opinion, anyway, more likely to be successful in conditions where it's not actually quite so helpful for him. But the whole question of the keeper standing up, DRS and him probing away at that pad, basically the front pad or just around about that off stump, I think makes him dangerous everywhere. And more and more, I think, we'll be copying that now. We thank the Australians for that.

and Ollie Robinson, I think, was thank the Australians for that because I just think that makes him that makes him dangerous everywhere now. Yeah, I agree. I mean, if you look back, I think the England team became such a stubborn outfit where they wouldn't listen from outside and there was many very strong thoughts going into the ashes that they needed more preparation and it wasn't coming from a, you know,

we know what we're doing but it was a care of the England Creek team that they were going to arrive in Australia and not prepare properly. and it obviously backfired on them and there was many people saying it's not all about airspeed in Australia you know I've been down there for the last eight or nine years and the best bowlers have been top of off stump those that wobble the ball

and England went with this airspeed approach and it was crying out for an Ollie Robinson style and that's what happens in cricket and in sport you know you get a change of leadership you see in football dressing the management gets back and suddenly the few players oh we can now get selected and that's the case here

that Ollie Robinson was brought back this summer by Baz and Robert Key. So they saw that something was missing in the winter. They probably accepted that Ollie Robinson had worked a little bit harder on his fitness. And he's been a really good selection because he, for me, is a real key to this tack with Josh Tong. Obviously, Geoffrey, Gus, and they're really good four. But, you know, we didn't have a tone setter. Even last year against India, we didn't really have a quality tone setter at the start of an innings.

And I know he's not been challenged, but you just know with Ollie Robinson, the first over, you're always on commentary. You know that that first few balls is going to be on a good length and the bat will have to play a Ford defense. Whereas in the winter, how many times? Oh, short and wide. Crash for four. Travis had off and running. It was just a common theme. So, you know, a sense, I keep using that word sense, a sensible appointment of Marcus North. You know, a county cricket guy that knows the game inside out. in the UK. He knows players. He knows what these conditions are. He knows what you need.

You know, so over the course of a bit of the chaos in the winter, I think we've ended the summer. I don't think it's been a successful summer because they've lost the series, which was the big series, New Zealand. But now I sit back and go, I know that there's a bit of sense with Stephen Fleming, Marcus North, Joe Root at the helm, you know, some of the selection, Dan Lawrence coming back in. Now, that was a good selection because you need a bit of offspin. He's bought a decent amount of offspin for Surrey. He's battings as good. as anybody in the county game in recent times. So that was a really sensible selection. Yeah, so I've liked what I've seen in the last few weeks. Again, Pakistan, we can't judge it.

But isn't that the problem though? Isn't that the problem where we are at the moment? Pakistan is so hard. I think sense will take them further. You know, if it has been more chaotic kind of, you know, take a punt on selection. And winning games too, else? You can't. You can't. You can't take a punt on selection when you're talking about in England. Again, you go about Josh Hill's selection. That just crackers. Poor kid being thrown into a test match against Sri Lanka. And there's been quite a few punts on selections.

I don't want to see in test match cricket, England taking punts on selection. I want a bit more sense than this series we've had it. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Who's your fifth or sixth bowler to come in? The big four have dominated the Pakistan series. Who's your fifth or six? Because there will be injuries along the line, weren't they?

Well, it depends. It depends who gets injured, isn't it? It depends. I think we've seen with this four, it has been talk about how varied they are. And they are. They are very different bowlers. But they have that, you know,

Olli Robinson doing that holding job, if they meant the real accuracy. And then, so if he gets injured, you're then, you've got to shoot out between Fisher and Cook for that place. And then, you know, if one of the paces goes, then you're going, who's bowling best out?

Sonny Baker or or Riding Cars Riding Cars is he going is he to fare to him like in the ashes he kept on going in real tough situation and he has got a big heart yeah he just keep running in

so yeah so I think that's that is where the select that's where the administration of the side has to be good just briefly staff where are we with Bride and Casas well he's available for selection there's a there's a police investigation ongoing into the incidents of of what happened on that early Sunday morning

in in Derby until that investigation concludes the cricket regulator can't do its thing so I think it was only last week when England named a white bull side when they said that Bride and Carson he's not been picked at the moment they've asked him to sort of go away and have a little bit of a reset

and I asked Joe Root about that before this test match and said do you want him in his squad and he sort of clarified well look he's still not being available for this test match he is available going forward and England's next decision if this sort of holding pattern with the police investigation continues In theory, Kars is available to go to Pakistan for that White Ball Series, Australia and South Africa,

whether or not England wants to pick him is a different question. Yeah, I mean, Cook is right. I think Cook and Fisher are the kind of Ollie Robinson kind of backup. You've got Briding Kars and Sonny Baker, Joff Rarcher, Josh Tong kind of backup and Gus Atkinson. And then you start looking at kind of formation. If you want your best spinner in the side, you probably need Sam Curran to be your number six and all round. So you can have your best spinner. and then you start going, who is the best spinner in the UK? England go to Bangladesh in the new year for two test matches.

They have to pick Jack Leach. Jack Leach is the best spinner in the UK. You know, you look at his numbers. You know, it's going to spin in Bangladesh. You've got to have your best spinner. And then I will say, you know, who's the best offspinner? I don't think showy. And it's not degrading show.

It's just not the best off spinner in the UK. I'll throw a name out there. I mean, Cookie have been talking about it. He's 28 years of age. He played for England a few years ago. I think he's bowling better than ever. He fields really well. Well, bats quite nicely.

I think Dominic Best is bowling as well as I've seen him. Now, I hope we're not in the stage of English cricket where, because it didn't quite work four or five years ago, that you're looking at a finger spinner thing, oh, he can't get. He has got better. He's got better. He's played competitive cricket in all formats for Yorkshire. There's Jack Carson down at Sussex.

I think they're two better off-spinners than Showy Bashir right now. And if you want to win games of cricket, you want to go to Bangladesh. I think it's a really hard tour, Bangladesh. Bangladesh will be a tough team to beat in their own backyard. England will have to pick their best winners for that kind of tour. And I think, as we speak, I think Jack Leach and Dominic Best are the best too. Interesting.

I'm not convinced about Baker yet. I need to see him more, I think. Ollie Stone, I'm going to put his name out there as a sort of an Atkinson replacement. You know, if you're talking horses for courses. He's that sort of full, foolish length nippy. He's had a good summer. I tried to get a 10 feet of the day. And yes, of course, there are always going to be fitness conversations about Olly Stone.

But if you're talking about replacements coming in for one of the more senior ones, they might even be talking about a game or two. Saki Mahmood, another one is talking to someone, you know, reverse swing type. I know he's also had fitness issues, but he's fit and raring to go now. I mean, there are others out there. I was thinking about the squad for South Africa earlier on. And the point about this quartet, and it's obviously, it's great, and they've been very successful. but England are only one injury away

from either going to Fisher, who's only got two caps, Sam Cook with one cap, Baker with one. The other bowler that was in a squad earlier on this summer is Henry Crocom. I think he sort of is in the mix

and maybe someone who'd benefit if Brian and Carson. Quite useful if you want a hat trick. Exactly, yeah. The man who took two in two weeks. And on the subject of the spinner or spinners in Bangladesh, I wrote down all of these names

that could feasibly be in with a shout. Leach, Bess, Reyn Ahmed, Shoebashir, James Coles, Will Jacks, Liam Patterson White, Dan Lawrence, Mason, Crane and Jack Carson. There's probably more that I've forgotten as well. And that's not me saying that the cupboard is full,

it's me saying that there's a lot out there and we're not entirely sure what they can do. Yeah, realistically, the one who's going to play, though, is Dan Lawrence, isn't it? I mean, you can see this team that played at Edgberston being the team, well, or can you? I mean, playing in that first test, I mean, the Jacob Bethel issue, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah, this will be the team. I mean, and it's the right team for those conditions. Unless suddenly the wanders have become a bit dry than when I used to play there, but you need your quicks and you need your part-time spinning. You need to pack your batting. So I would think this will be exactly the team and the right team for those conditions. What about Bethel?

Yeah, so if Bethel's fit and played some cricket, then, you know, there's not been much information about his knee, is there? Apart from he's had the operation, how long he's actually out for? No one, they don't quite know, do they? So the one thing I would say about Bethel, I think we saw this summer, he's still a kid, and we've got to treat him a little bit like he does need some preparation. He's played nine test matches, that's all. But he needs preparation for every series as well.

He's not, like if you threw Joe Root in, you know, with no red ball practice now, and he's been doing something else. You'll be absolutely fine with that, you know. But I just think we've got to get those basics back to really help him as well, and helping and cricket team. I agree with that. I mean, he's a wonderful talent. You know, it's only a human being.

You know, if he's been out for five or six months and you're throwing him into a test match at the Warren's against South Africa, you'd hope that he's had a few games to justify that selection. If he's right and he's playing nice, he absolutely comes in at number three. Just very briefly, do you think Ollie Pope

would score more runs than Dan Lawrence at six? Oh, that's a good question. Because he's not a three, is he? Yeah, potentially he would. Potentially he'd get a few more, but he wouldn't offer what Dan Lawrence can offer with the ball. We haven't seen a great deal of his bowling yet, but if it's spinning,

when you have two-day games, you don't get to your spinner. I mean, how many others have we had this summer? It's probably the lowest ever. Dan Lawrence has bold, well, barely bold in the Pakistan series. Just throw him one name, Jamie Smith. There was a few question marks about him at the start of this summer,

keeping and batting. I think he's nailed that down. He's nailed that down. It's only good summer. His keeping's been brilliant, isn't it? And really good. I think his batting, he's still not quite back to where he was when he started, whether that's just that confidence and that awe.

I used to walk him out, when he got out there in the middle, he had this aura about him. For a guy who just came to the game, when you walked out, he was like bullying the bowlers a bit. I think his experience over the last 12 months in Australia and getting bounced out a bit and not scoring the runs he had to, I think he's had a bit of an impact on him. But I think his keeping,

like there's no question how good his keeping has become. Well, that again, you mentioned, you know, Jacob Bethel, that's treating him with a bit of sense and giving some creek before he comes back in. I'm sure they will do under this management. and you look at Jamie Smith every morning now. You look down and there is.

He's down there with Sarah Taylor, catching tennis balls. It's almost like you're looking down at Alex Carey. Alex Carey in the winter every morning for 30 minutes catching balls. We didn't see Jamie Smith catch

any balls in the morning apart from the bowlers who ran. It was like the old club match. You know, just take a few from the, all kitted out with the pads on. There was no drills. There was no kind of diving around.

So it just tells you, Matthew Pryor went through that process with Bruce French, didn't he? Yeah, you did. Where he just worked and worked and worked and worked in McKenner. an incredible wicket-keeper

and it looks to me like the old adage of a bit of hard work as paid off for Jamie Smith. Jonathan and Stefan degree of difficulty of that South Africa series for England I mean Pakistan,

okay, lots of wins, lots of big wins dispatched. What about South Africa? High, I think it's really high. The world test champion. Yeah, yeah. But having not played

a huge amount of test cricket in the meantime. But they will have... They will have done. Yeah, I mean that series against Australia, is really mouthwater. Rabada question mark.

Yeah, big injury for him. The point I'd make is that once again we're ending a summer where we don't know how good England are. If you think back to 2023 Ashes, drawn series, we weren't entirely sure. 24, they lost to Sri Lanka at the Oval, we weren't sure how good they are. Last summer, drew with India, we weren't sure how good they are.

Same again. Proper English people, grumbling when we're winning. It's just the way we are, isn't it? Hey, we're picking the team apart. Excellent. Thanks very much everybody. everybody. Well, there's our review of where we think England are at the moment. And, well, as all as I suppose, the most sports teams, it's room for improvement. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So much sport today for all the goals as they go in up and down the league.

This is 5 Live Sports. It's all right for the lights and for 10. a floor. It's not to stop out. Everyone standing around the 18th three. He shows to the centre. Life Sports. The home of the world's greatest sporting events. Listen on BBC Sounds. Get more with BBC podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like Evil Genius, Good, Bad Billionaire, and You're Dead to Me,

with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. Thank you.