Test Match Special - What is it like to enter the Australian Ashes cauldron?

Episode Date: September 20, 2025

Alison Mitchell is alongside former England Ashes batter Dawid Malan and England World Cup winner Ebony Rainford-Brent to discuss the pressure England players are put under when playing in the Ashes down under.What do Australia do on the pitch to press England, how can England’s less-experienced players cope, and what did Dawid find intimidating during his time batting for England in Australia? Dawid tells all about the media waiting for players as they come off the plane and being grilled by his batting heroes who would interview him after a game.

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Alison Mitchell and welcome to the TMS podcast. As the men's Ashes fast approaches, I'm alongside former England Ashes batter David Malan and England World Cup winner Ebony Rainford Brent

to discuss just what this period is like for players who know that they'll be heading out down under and just how they deal with that pressure. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Just around the corner, the elephant's in the room, everyone is acknowledging 21st of November is the start of the Ashes in purpose. earth. David, you've gone on two Ashes tours, haven't you? 17, 18 and 21, 22, which was a very

difficult one because that was COVID. Both of them 4-0 defeats. But you did pretty well in 1718, didn't you, averaging 42 with the bat. But the pressure is really just going to ramp up between now and the start of the series. What is this period like for players who know they'll be on the plane or believe they'll be on the plane, hope they'll be on the plane? Yeah, it'll be a very exciting time. Yeah, not great memories for me. Personally, well, from a team point of you, I absolutely haven't. I think it's eight out of ten that we've got destroyed by the Aussie. So not great memories for me from that. Personally, obviously, got a few runs. But yeah, look, I think this next bit is about understanding, you know, a bit what we spoke

about earlier, the schedule, taking time off, understanding when they want to train, how much they want to train, what they want to put into place from an individual point of view. I know when I went over to the Ashes, I had a good period where I studied the bowlers, ask questions from a lot of players that have been there and been successful about what to expect not only on the field but off the field what technique I needed, what type of shots would be more beneficial at the different grounds

because all the grounds are different starting at Perth this time instead of Brisbane Brisbane day one is a little bit slower nibbles a little bit, gets quicker as the game gets on and gets a bit more bouncy whereas Perth is going to be bouncy from day one, it's going to be really steep bounce and it's going to be something that England players haven't been used to. I know they're not doing some warm-up game

out there so that might affect them but just want a light of kill isn't it with the the lions that's right yeah yeah so they're having an inter-squad game or something with the lions and that'd be interesting to see where they play that and which ground they use that on because they want to be as similar as they can to Perth but I think it's all about doing their homework now about understanding how they want to go about it what they want to do from a technical point of view bowlers what lengths do you want to bowl and putting that all into practice before they get on that plane Jacob Bethel having scored that incredible hundred and the first of his professional career some saying, well, that has catapulted him back into contention for the first test.

I mean, Ebbs and David, is he in the squad, but he's in the 11? What's your take on? On just what that 100 has done. He's a very good 50 over 100. I think, coming out of the summer, there was a lot of criticism he hadn't quite performed, hadn't had enough cricket, actually, is maybe the bigger argument. And he wouldn't be dead set in My 11 for a test match series. It doesn't mean he's not going to be in the squad.

I think he can offer a lot. And it feels like you look at the other batters. Ben Duckett, runs are coming. Zach Crawley's back into flow. Jamie Smith has shown what he can do, Harry. But you go down that line up and you felt very confident in test format with everybody has kind of done the hard yards. I just feel for me that, you know, he's good to be in and around the squad,

whether he makes that starting 11 in an Australia starting lineup. I'm not sure he does for me just yet. But you'd want him around in the mix. look he's clearly a talent we're going to see him if he stays fit stays hungry I have no doubt in the next 10 years he'll have a few ashes behind him I'm not sure this is the one that I would be sort of putting in front and centre for yet I think he's got development to come I think if he's called on and there's injuries he'll be great but he wouldn't be my most of my starting 11 yeah I have to agree

I think if England go with Bethel at 3 from the start they've gone away from everything they've done over the last two or three years building up to the ashes back in play has given players the opportunities to fail and to learn and to get better at what they're doing. I think the top seven will be pretty standard. I think it will be the same as what it's been for the last couple of years. I think the biggest questions they have at the moment

of what their bowling attacks will be. And who's fit? Who's the spinner? Does Joffra? Is Woody available? Can I just say it just about the Bethel situation? I feel most of the conjecture at the start of the season around, you know, will Bethel come into the 11 at the expense of Pope and all that came from a Ben Stokes sort of misstep

in a media conference where I think he said 11 when he meant coming back into the squad and it then sort of blew up and I think perhaps if that had never happened and it was just well Bethel will come straight back into the squad everyone would have gone oh yeah great he's going to be around the squad and part of the setup but it sort of ignited this whole what you're leaving out Olly Pope and then and Ben Stokes then you know took great pains to correct it and and say no that wasn't what um well I think he said it wasn't what he said but I think it was what he actually said but anyway a big a big sort of hoo-ha then then ensued and that probably could have all been avoided

and it would feel quite England like to take a player like him and have him in the squad because they like to have players exposed to the environment don't they? They do and that doesn't mean he's not going to play a part in the ashes whether he plays as a batter that plays as a spinner and maybe at Perth where

it's not historically going to turn it might bounce a little bit lots of form players have three test matches and you're two nil down they might decide that they need to make a change for that fourth test and the Australians even did that season when they you know uncertainty at the top they had Nathan McSweeney in for the board of Gavasker trophy and yet he didn't perform over three matches so Sam Constus

comes in for the last two and England have done that a lot haven't they made a change when they've you know got too deep in the series is all but gone well especially long series five five test match series when it gets that third one if you haven't performed as well as a team you know they're usually looking at something to do or to do something different to change the fortunes and it usually ends up being a bowler getting changed or a badder getting changed and if Bethel keeps playing as he is as he's as he scored that hundred and if he keeps put on performance in these T20s there's no reason why he can't push for a spot in that's in the 11 as the series goes on I but I think they'll be very settled with how they go about it

could be totally wrong but I think they would go be very settled I think they'd be very silly to build for three years to suddenly change it before the biggest series they have and you're about to start talking about the bowling attack yeah sorry went a bit off topic there but I sort of pulled you I got a bit sucked into that, but I think that's going to be the interesting thing is, you know, is Mark Wood going to be fit? I know he's trying to play last couple of games for Durham or at least one to prove his fitness. Wokes his shoulder. I don't know if he's in contention, but if he's shoulders out, it's not looking here. Everything I'm hearing is that he won't make the plane.

So that's not nothing confirmed at all yet. Yeah, that'd be a shame for him. He's done exceptionally well over the last two years. And he sort of changed that trend a bit that he couldn't bowl the kookabar a ball and he couldn't be successful overseas. and he's actually been pretty good overseas in that period. So he's gone away and done the hard yards and tried to prove that he was fit. So it is a massive shame for him if he's injured because he has been probably the leader of the attacks since Sir Jimmy has retired and Brody as well.

But yeah, look, I think the biggest question is if Ben Stokes is injured or if he gets injured in the series, if he plays as a batter, who's your all-rounder, how does the balance of the teamwork, who's the spinner going to be? is Dawson going to be your spare spinner on the trip? Is he going to be the one that potentially plays at Perth where it doesn't turn and lengthens their batting order? Because at the end of the day, one of the things that Australia do really well, and it's something that a lot of people talk about,

but it doesn't get highlighted like that. They really kill the tail. So their bowlers will literally not pitch a ball up to the tail and the scoreboard goes nowhere. So you could be absolutely flying at 240 for 3, bang, bang, 260 for 5, and it's just all out for 2. they just absolutely kill the tail and that's how they dominate in Australia and I'd be interested to see how England go about there because I think they've they've definitely

taken bits of that over the last couple of years they've definitely used that short ball theory a lot and it's been really successful for them so I'm excited for the series especially if all the bowlers are fit you know I'd love to see Joffro and Woody at Perth um I'd love to see them flying Stokes as your third seamer with um with whoever the other whether that be cast or tar or castes well yeah probably probably be cast actually because they're going to need the batting. So you have three quick, Stokes as well. He's bowling quite quick again at the moment since his injuries. So four fast bowls in Australia. My nervousness though, because on paper it can sound amazing, right? You've got Joff and Woody fit, Stokes' back fit. You start looking at it

and you think this looks great. Your ideal 11. Your ideal 11. If it goes slightly wrong in terms of fitness, like Josh Chung, for example, bowled beautifully and was swinging at one point, but then also had a horrific spell. He was sort of swinging around a bit. I think he will be a great bowl a long term, but there starts to be a few holes there. Bashir, how much experience does he have in those conditions? And I think...

The Ozzy's target him. The Ozzy's target him, exactly. So it can quite quickly, if the injuries are sustained, we could be kind of going into less experience. And then all of a sudden, you know, Gus Atkinson and, you know, these guys who are less experienced are going to have to lead the attack. And so that's my only nervous.

I think batting were looking pretty solid. We just need batters to be fit, bowlers to be fit. How significant is there significance to Sam Curran being recalled for this, I don't know, it's a T20 series, but the fact that he apparently had this breakfast with Brendan McCullum where he had a bit of a chat

and McCollum was quite honest and maybe pretty honest with him, telling him that, you know, you got off to a pretty fast start, you know, seven years, a lot of good came to you, but then your forms dropped off and that was why he wasn't picking him. But he has now giving him chance and he's back in the fold here. Could there be any significance for that for Sam

Curran as regards Red Bull Cricket? I mean if a backup to Stokes is needed, how far off? Is that any realism? Well, I think he's quite far off. I think it would be a great option if he was bowling well, if he'd gone away and picked up the pace, which he might have done that they asked, if he'd picked up a yard and he was bowling really well and playing well for Surrey. I think he'd be pushing himself forward for that. Once again, I think everything that England have done under Brendan McCullum has been so structured and so backing of the certain players.

I can't see them making massive changes like that now. I'd love to see that they have someone to back up Stokes because it has been highlighted when he's been injured and they've only playing three seamers and they're missing an extra bowling option. It balances the team so big. So they have to find the next Ben Stokes at some point. Can Sam Curran be it?

It could potentially. But not yet. But I don't think just. yet, but he could potentially be, and I think that's what England are going to have to search for. You look at South Africa over the last couple of years since Jack Callis retired. They've really struggled to find their balance in their test team. I know they've done really well

and won the World Test Championship recently, but they've struggled for a few years trying to find the balance, and I think that's the next thing for England. So if Sam Curran can impress Brendan McCullum, and as we said earlier, this is such a big series for him, not only for T20, but for 50 over cricket, for the balance of the team and for

potentially future test cricket as well. I think his whiteball cricket has really kicked on in different ways I think he you're seeing him come up the order a little bit so actually with runs he's become very valuable in whiteball cricket but actually even though I think the championship he's averaging 50 yeah he's too very yeah he's batting is coming on I wouldn't say he's replacing anyone in the current England test 11 but he's batting for himself is kicked on he's got more whiteball schools the moon moon baller I don't know what he's calling it but you know although that bowling in the the white ball format is excellent I just think that the needs for an ashes I don't think he will

replace any of the current batting line up and he's bowling maybe vulnerable like you say if he hasn't got that extra bit of pace you know as a squad player as a squad player yeah so I mean but he might be you can always get cooled up can't you but he's the sort of player that if they back him

and they want him in the squad you know they get him around the environment he may be I just and it's not that they're not thinking that way I just think for me I can see where his game is going at the moment I'm really pleased to see him back here it'd be it'd be a big headline if he was making that front line it's a bit left field as a chat but the fact that he's

he's in this team but it's a huge step for him to come back into the fold. It is, but as Ebony said that his batting has improved so much

over the last couple of years that it's actually given England so many more options because realistically in test cricket your fourth seamer he doesn't have to bowl 25 overs at 145 clicks all he has to do is bowl

your 15, 16 overs if you have a good spinner and you have three quicks and if someone like a Ben Stokes ends up playing for another two years and someone like a Sam can really develop his game and really get as well as a batters

well as he can and improve as much as he can with his batting. He's going to be a massive asset for England. The left arm seamer, you have Bashir, who's an offie, who would love a couple of footholes there. It just over the course of the next two, three, four years, when Ben Stokes decided to stand up, if Sam can find his way into that test team, as your fourth steamer that combat top six, he'll be a massive asset for England. And on the bowling front, Matthew Potts released from the white ball squad here to go and play for Durham. So that, again, a very clear message to say we want you to get some red ball cricket under your belt before going out there yeah he's been absolutely fantastic when he's played for england isn't he's um he finds a way to

get wickets he runs in all day and i think that's one of the things that england really like about him he just doesn't give up he's whenever he looks like he's on his last legs he finds another spell and he finds a way of key coming back and you know the old saying he goes back to the well and he does that so often not only for durham but every time he plays for england and i think that's great for a captain to have when especially if you go to tough conditions but things might not be going your way to have someone that constantly runs in day day out for you regardless of how his body's feeling regardless of how everything's going i think that's a great asset sunny baker what was your take on i mean it was a really tough start to international

cricket wasn't it in the odi at leeds but where do you see him and i guess you know how he's been managed through the odi series and he played that one and then saki mamud came back but yeah again and ash's place in a squad or too early? Funny enough, my first year of club cricket when I played came over in 2006 on my gap year. He's an old man, opened the bowling and the team that I played for, actually. Yeah, so that's a good story. And then he finally got me out this year as well. He did give me a little smile as he walked past. I haven't heard from his old man yet, so maybe he hasn't got my number anymore. What is it like facing him then? So actually, I faced him in the hundred a couple of years

ago. He played for the Southern Brave. He came in as a replacement, and he didn't have the pace he had now he was he still had the skills he swung the ball away from me which was his his go-to um it's a little bit floaty when he was fuller but you know i faced him in four-day cricket the beginning of the year and he hit the bat really hard he actually ran in and it came through really nice got this weird trajectory it sort of keeps coming at you like so when you think it's a it's hard length it just beats you another foot because he's not so tall is he's not tall yeah he's very he's very short and you know Josh tongue in the hundred played in the same game and tongue felt a lot quicker than what sunny did maybe that's just because of the height

and, you know, Sonny was probably bowling 86, 87, and Josh was coming up at 1991, so you could feel the difference in it. But, you know, he's skillful, he swung the ball both ways. He bowed really well to good players. I think there's something for them to work with. I think there's, you know, it's not often you can get young kids coming in, being able to have the confidence to swing the ball both ways

and bowl at high to late 80s. You know, I think that's a great talent. I think it would be a surprise if he's on that Ashes in the Ashes 15. I think there's a good possibility to be in the Lions team they're going to have a good opportunity to take quite a big stock of fast bowlers with them and it probably allows them

if there are injuries to bring guys straight in Yeah and that's so important isn't it having that conditioning and having a squad that is in the right time zone accustomed to conditions that can slot in when and if need be Yeah my thought with him was welcome to international cricket

because I watched obviously him in the 100 and there was some really good pace and skiddy you know and everyone gets excited And then, you know, the first game, well, we all know, you know, didn't really pan out for him. And he was kind of attacked, really, in the way he was taken to it. What I would say, actually, that second spell he came back later. He did actually show some heart. But the reality is he got dropped because in the interviewing, they said he wasn't dropped.

In the next game, Sakeeb's coming back in, and that was the headline. But that third game, when Sakeeb was resting, you would have thought he would have potentially come back in and they went to Overtin. Whereas if he would have torn it up on the first ODII, I think they would have. brought him back in what it says to me is a bigger story which i kind of like actually is they they don't mind testing players at international level i think there's this kind of let's skip out the whole earn your yards on the county circuit if we see talent the bethels the showibs the sally bakers that's very evident yes very evident let's just chuck them in and sometimes it works you know i'm thinking of the josh hole maybe that's one that hasn't quite paid off um

and sometimes it needs just a longer game plan he's someone that they're going to have to think about over a long period and you've also got to be careful that was my just thought at the end of that is confidence-wise that would have been a hit you go out

you can completely get exposed then you maybe miss the next game think oh maybe I'll come back in then you don't and then it could be just that sort of confidence so he's going to have to make sure that he's rock solid himself they wrap him around and say

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David, what is it like just being in Australia as an Ashes cricketer for those for whom it might be their first trip? I mean for Brenda McCullum. It's new territory, isn't it? Being an England coach of an Ashes team out there because I spend every winter out there with the Australian media covering the test series. And I have to say, the recent winter, the Border Gavasker Trophy with India,

was the closest that I could equate the media hype to an Ashes. In fact, it almost actually felt more intense because Australia-India series have been closer and, in fact, India winning them, you know, recent tours, as you know, have been much more one-sided. but the level of attention of the media is just different level and sometimes a little bit mischievous as well

how have you found it how would you describe it and what do these players need to be ready for it is tricky actually before the first one I went on I remember sitting in a meeting and the squad was sitting there and Stuart brought it up I know all the Aussies love to hate Stuart and he'll be out there again commentating this year so that'd be interesting to say how he goes But yeah, I remember sitting in this meeting

And I'd only played five or six tests then And I was over the moon to have been picked for this ashes And he sat in this meeting And he was like, lads, just be aware The media's going to come hard at you And everything you do is going to get scrutinized And if you go on night out, you're going to get scrutinized And if you do this, this is going to happen

And that's going to happen I remember sitting there going, my word, Like, I'm just going to sit in my room for the rest of this whole thing But you can't have that siege mentality You can't, you can't You can't, you have to get out And Australia is such a great country There's so many things to do and there's so many things to see and so many opportunities to go out and relax and to get away from the game of cricket and it's finding that balance.

And I guess the second ashes that I had out there, we had COVID and we were very confined to hotels, very confined to rules and everything that had to go on about it. And that became one of the hardest trips I've ever been in my life, mentally destroyed, not only me, but a lot of the players and coaching staff around as well. It was incredibly taxing on us as players. but you know the guys going there now they're going to have the freedom they're not going to have these rules I know they're probably going to have to watch what they do a little bit more because I'm pretty sure the Aussie media will be waiting for them as we would too if it was the other way around but yeah look it's an exciting tour it's a brilliant tour there is a lot more that goes on it it it's going to be a lot more tiring than a lot of these players think it's going to be and I know Harry Brooke has come out publicly saying that this last test series against indies this five test series it really got to him mentally he was absolutely knack it after it. I know he had a really good series and that's what they're going to have to expect

when they go to Australia and I think that's actually been brilliant that they've played a five test match series that's gone down to the wire. It's been a really tough cricket where there's been a lot of media. It's one of the biggest ones going around India against England, same with it with the ashes so they've got a little bit of a taste of what they're going to get when they go to Australia but

look Australia is a great country to go to if you do the right things and you keep your head out of trouble and you don't pour drinks of people and you don't yeah it does and you don't do silly things like that and you can get that out of the media, I think it'll be a fantastic tour for them if they can manage all that media stuff off the field.

I mean, there's the one side of it, which is the cricket media who is at the grounds. There is the other side, which is the broad news media. And one thing which I know that the Indian players struggled with because they're simply not used to it. And it doesn't happen here in England either. It's that thing when you would have experienced it, I'm sure, you step off the plane domestically flying city to city in Australia.

It's a bit like getting on a bus, isn't it, or a train. You just hop off the plane, you're straight out into the terminal. You grab your suitcase off the carousel whilst the TV news crews are surrounding you. And it's very normal for the TV news crews in Australia to doorstep their sports stars. You know, that the football teams travel all the way through and there'll be little media huddles in the airport. But sometimes that can, and I've seen it happen, turn into sort of a bit of media chasing, you know, microphones under Virac Koli's nose. He is not used to that at all, you know. He's used to having his media kept at arm's length and being very neatly managed.

And it's a different beast in Australia. Simple things. Obviously, I heard the clip of Brenda McCullum talking about. It's frustration that people think the goal, that, you know, they just golf, have a few beers and it's all chill. You know, he was saying there's a lot more to it than that. But in my head, I was thinking players are going to be getting away, trying to get away, day or two out. All it takes is one social media post and lads are on a, you know, golf tour, you know, all those sort of napards. They will be playing a lot of, I can tell you that.

Although, did you hear about the other day talking about, you know, the benefits of playing golf and, you know, for him, that is part of his time when he can speak to players, you know, chat to them. I thought you're saying, David, about the man management side of Brenda McCullum, about Andrew Flintoff, how he goes about things as well. It's much about having conversations with players, getting to know them. But all I mean is it takes one loss of a test, like, let's say, lose the first test, guys get away, media goes, look at, you know, these guys are, and it can just swell. It can start from a small thing, and then they're getting in,

and actually the downtime that players need becomes the criticism. the media and so I think it's it's going to be having to keep it tight and I don't know how you guys keep it tight actually I don't know if you don't read the media when you were out there or you soak it up and embrace it I don't know how the players are going to manage but small things like that will just ramp up agree I think they have to be really smart on social media is if you want to do something as a group do it if you want to go and play golf every day do it go and advertising it is pretty pointless I think keeping what you're doing as a group and as a team and what your preparation is to yourselves I think that's brilliant I know there's the digital

world or social media now where everyone wants to put out that they're playing on the best course in Australia and what have you or they've got a private playing or whatever they're doing it's it's all great fun like but I think just sometimes just just tone it down a little bit just be a bit smarter keep out of the media keep your nose clean that the cricket did you read it did when you were at when I started I did it was new to me it was you know I started quite late when you play Canada cricket until you're 28 years old you get the odd negative thing but generally it's just a crick-c info sort of highlight of the day and you can just he scored 100 well played

or all roses and what have you but you know when you start playing international cricket and things don't go your way you start reading it and you don't do it to sort of boost your ego you don't do it to sort of see if you've been written badly about you but eventually it gets to you

no matter how who you are in the world no matter how many times you try and block it out something always gets back to you I remember having to have a chat with my old man at one point because he'd be messaging me going who's this reporter and I'd be like which one and then he'd send me the article and I'd read the article and I'd be like I didn't want to read that I've specifically stayed off everything so I had to have a chat with him at some point and say

look just you know yeah if you want to read it fine you know I know I have to score runs I know when I'm under pressure um I know if I score three noughts I'm probably due I'm probably due to get a bit of criticism in the media and that's part of the territory we're all aware of it it's never easy it's never easy when you're the one in the in the sort of crosshairs um you have a few sleepless nights and you just just hope that that next score was getting closer and closer so that you can get that positive things being written about you again. But, you know, I actually always go back to someone like an Owen Morgan, talk about the man management. He was so brilliant at shielding the media and shielding you from the media.

So even if he got a sniff that you were under pressure, he would go and say something in the press that would back you. Whether he did or not, whether you were under pressure, whether he were going to get dropped two or three games later. He would always say something that if it came to your attention, that you'd seen an article that he was publicly backing you. And I remember him doing it a toss once. We're playing a game against Sri Lanka at the Rose Bowl. And I got at the toss, actually. I can't remember who it was. Maybe Athens or someone asked a question about me.

And Morg just literally point blank. He shut it down on the spot. And I remember listening to the interview on while I was warming up. And I was like, that's brilliant. And I ended up getting some runs that game. And I remember just like the thought that all he did was constantly shield us from the media and constantly take the brunt of it. And Brendan McCullum's done that fantastically well so far since he's been in charge.

If they can keep doing that, I think, you know, you can stop reading the stuff and you can be smart with the way you go about it. And one thing I'll say as well, what the players will have to deal with, and you probably found it on more tour as well, is just the number of Australian media outlets that are present at a test match. And compared to, I said, when this team go out there, yes, TMS will be there. There'll be a friendly face on the outfield to do a radio interview at the end of the day. Who will be out there for television, we don't know on the English side. But then you've got ABC radio, two other Australian commercial outlets, and two Australian TV networks. That's a lot of quote sort of foreign media slash sort of enemy fire, if you like, to deal with and do all of that.

So it's just a different kind of cauldron, isn't it? The end of the day's play to face all of that. It is. Do you know what I found the most intimidating was when you get called up to do an interview with ABC or whatever it was, and you've got, I don't even know who works for them, but say it's Matthew Hayden and Ponting. and Michael Clark, whoever it is, the legends of the game, guys that I look up to when I was playing

and suddenly you've got these three bloke standing in front of you and they're giving you a grilling and they're asking your questions and you go, oh, they must think I'm absolutely rubbish at the moment, average in 25 playing for England and test match cricket and ashes when they were averaging 50 and getting dropped and you could just feel that.

It was very intimidating. You know, they're obviously extremely polite and they're very respectful and they treat you unbelievably well but you can just get that feel when you're speaking to them. But I guess that's part of the ashes is that you have the big guns on show and you have the big names that are around. And that's brilliant for you as a player as well to be able to sort of be interviewed by these players

and actually be able to ask questions for them afterwards. But yeah, it is quite intimidating when you see all these players around. Big part of that then is to know, to be prepared, to expect that's going to happen when you walk out to the middle. Because you can deal with anything if you sort of know what's ahead of you. But I can well imagine if you just walk out for a post-match interview and you think you're used to, you know, just your one stand-up with a, you know, friendly BBC journalist who you know, hopefully we're friendly. And then, you know, something with the, somebody else you're familiar with.

But, yeah, then suddenly you're surrounded by. And I know the ABC very much do the group chat at the end of the day. It's not just a one-on-one. It is a stand-around with three people to have a chat with. And then there'll be another radio chat with three other people. And there'll be, yeah, namesfaces you're not familiar with and maybe a little bit intimidated by. I think the Australian broadcasters, well, have different style. You know, the British broadcasting, you know, obviously there's the pros, the cons, the criticism,

but I feel that Australians just say things like how bad they think you are. They say it with real punch. It's the way they look at you, look at you, and you're like, this kind of thinks I'm rubbish. They know what's kind of know, like you say, they've got all the ledges. I think what England will have to, you know, I'm sure Danny, Rubin and the media guys will be smart with who they send out as well, end-a-day play, all those sort of things. You've got to cross. But usually someone who's done well. Well, yeah, hopefully someone who's done well and some, you know, because it is,

going to be coming at you in so many different ways and players are going to have to think about it. From a spectator perspective, it is fun because you know it's all in. Spice. And I was going to say what we saw with the India series, which has always actually been okayish. And to see how that started ramping up with spice towards the end of this summer makes you think, well, if this team are going to go with that sort of, that's going to get going to aggression, let's say more tests, go to five days, everything's happening. It's going to be bubbling. There's no doubt it's going to be bubbling. So I'm looking forward to all of it. Well, the first thing which got the Australian media's, and I'm talking about the sort of the TV news outlets in a way, got the Australian

media's backs up and fired up at the start of the Bordeca Vaska Trophy, was India training behind closed doors at Perth. So putting up like a big black curtain, you know, literally blocking out the cameras, the media, and there's nothing that annoys journalists more than not having access. And I think from then on it was like, right, the touch paper's being lit and it just makes the news crew. who's work harder to try and get your access. And I think that was sort of the start of it. You know, got off on, from India's perspective, like the wrong foot, you know,

almost embrace the media. And then they've got nothing to be annoyed at you for, and they're not, they can't come at you in the same way. Yeah, to some extent. But, I mean, I remember Melbourne in the last Ashes series, we were, we just, I think we were two-nilled down. We'd rocked up and we'd, you know, been talking about how we should be leaving balls, and then we should be hitting balls,

and then we should be leaving balls, and whatever it may be. And we went to Melbourne. and the nets are sort of in this concrete sort of block and spectators can watch from the top. That's a gallery like, is it? And the camera crews are behind the net and then they're on top and they're looking down. You've got all the reporters, written media,

everyone's standing behind you. So everything you say in the nets gets heard. Every drill that you're doing gets watched. It gets scrutinized. And I think it was, Amid was doing these one-legged drills and the media just jumped on that, especially the Aussie ones. He was batting on one leg on the front foot,

then the back foot. He was probably done that for the last five, six, seven years, ten years of his career, whatever he was doing. But they jumped on that and they really nailed him on that to the extent that he was almost too scared to go and do his drills again. So it's not easy when you're there and you feel like everyone's watching you, the private moments where you actually want to get better and you're actually trying to put yourself in a position of vulnerability where you actually want to get better and you want to push yourself and try something different and you're getting watched on. And actually remember, I was during the fourth test, it was COVID. All the coaches were off and I think Silvers had done. I remember chatting to Joe Root about my backlift and where I want my hands to be

and he was talking about where his hands were and what he feels comfortable. I remember walking out to bat and David Warner the first thing he said was watch his hands lads, he's all over the shop here and I was a bit like, what's that comment about? And he said it a couple of times and at the drinks break or lunch I walked past him

and said, what are you on about? And he's like, I saw that on social media. I saw you and Joe talking about your hands and I don't miss a thing, I'm always watching it. Probably came from Bratsundaraisa. Well, there you go. It probably was, it probably was actually. So, yeah, so he picked that up. And, yeah, it does become incredibly tough when you're trying to work on your game

and people, you feel like you're... So I can understand why India did that, but I can understand why it rubs up the media if that's what they're used to as well. Yeah, the media is just one part of it, isn't it? But, yeah, it's coping with the Australian bowling attack, which would be one thing. I actually just noticed Pat Cummins has given an update on his fitness, which is not much of an update, but it's one line.

and you can imagine that that is making quite big headline. So he was at a Cricket Australia event. What day are we today? It's Wednesday, isn't it? Yeah, so this is Wednesday Australian time where he has said, I'd imagine I'd want to be bowling at a minimum a month out, maybe six weeks from the first test. But then he goes on to say,

but I've not thought that deeply about it yet. Still a bit of a wait and see. So it's not much of an update, but that one line has made a bit of a headline in terms of Cummins mapping out his injuries, return plan ahead of the ashes this series and you know when we talk about ben stokes's fitness pat cummins's fitness is just as important isn't it because of his bowling ability his batting very handy as well but his leadership yeah he's the full package i mean he's in test cricket he's

the best bowler i've ever faced um he's just relentless so to have him fit um just as the bowler is such a massive asset for to australia he's we spoke about pots earlier about how he runs in Cummings runs in all day. Like his pace never drops. He sniffs a moment. He goes up a gear. He's relentless with his lines and lengths. He bowls your bouncer every single over.

So to have him and to have him not fully fit or have him sort of undercooked going into test series will be massive for England, I think. I think that's a massive thing for England. Not great for Australia. I know their big three have hardly played as much cricket as what they'd have liked together in Test cricket. They've had a lot of injuries over the last couple years.

I know Hazelwood's missed quite a few of the Ashes series that I've played in or the two that I was part of. The bowling hasn't done badly when he's coming. Or our batting hasn't been very good either way. So I think all the Aussie bowlers were lining up for us a couple of years ago. So, you know, hopefully that's changed. But yeah, look, he's a big thing.

And his leadership over the last couple of years, after that everything that happened with the previous regime, how he's how well he's taken that on. created a fantastic team ethos and culture for the Aussie team you know they're very more engaging they're the way they play their cricket seems to be a much better I don't know what the word I'm looking for is but it's at a much better level on the field it seems like they're they're willing to open up to opposition a bit as well so you know that it's obviously molded in the way he is as a bloke which comes across as a

fantastic bloke when you meet him so but he's a massive asset for them from from that point of view if he's not fit does that throw their plans into a bit of turmoil with who's going to captain? Is he going to captain for one game, two games? Steve Smith, yeah, so he'll probably come in and captain that. Is he different to what someone like a Cummins is on the field? And will that change if Cummins are only available for the third test? Who plays instead of Cummins?

Do they have Scott Boland? But then they lose Cummins batting at seven or eight where he's been batting. So, yeah, it throws a few spanners in the works for them as well. One of the things that you always felt, actually, is that their bowlers were high quality, but slightly aging in the sense of just experience, the Nathan Lyons, these guys have been around a long time. And one of the things I was thinking ahead of time of how fit will they be coming into the ashes. And, you know, hopefully, you know, if the Pat Cummins is fit. But if he's not, it's a massive hole.

And then there's many players underneath who haven't had as much exposure, so they'll need the bolins and those guys to be able to hold it up. But, yeah, in terms of runs, I mean, just looking at the top, Usman Kowager, I mean, experience, but always been under a bit of pressure. They've got Sam Constus as well. So it's going to be fickle and if you've got Archer charging in at 90 plus miles an hour with pace and bounce, it'll be a real threat. And if they can get in, that will be a weakness that Australia don't normally like to concede

that they have, but they will. So it'll be an exciting opportunity for England to make the most. Yeah, I have a feeling that in the lead up to that first test match, there could be again a bit of a sort of bat off with a lot of Aussie media focus on. the early rounds of Sheffield Shield, who is performing. I mean, that's how they almost had a bat off really in an India A, Australia A match before the Bordogabasker Trophy. And that was why Nathan McSweeney, it wasn't even an opener, but he got his opportunity at

the top. That didn't work out. Sam Constus comes in, plays unbelievably, like has this crazy debut innings, but then tails off and had a tough time in the West Indies. Quick question for you, because you spend a lot of time both hearing it. Do the Australian media protect their own or do they get in at them? So what I mean is, let's say there's the weakness at the top of the order. Are they going to be also chipping away so the write-ups are going to make the local press feel like there's a problem?

Or will they actually support and it'll be all about taking down the English with the Aussie media. Well, there will be a lot of focus on taking down the English, I'm sure. But I do think as well the Aussie media will do go hard on their own when it is merited if somebody is underperforming or if the Australians behave badly on the pitch or something like that. But I don't think it will be completely easy for them. But there is such a big focus on the England team in an ashes. But certainly whoever comes in, we'll have an intense spotlight on them because the Aussie media will want them to be performing and performing well.

You've got minus Labashane on the outer now actually. I mean, he will be trying to fight his way to get back in. And then you think, well, where does he go? Because at the moment they've got Cameron Green of three because they desperately want him in their team, but he's not yet able to bowl. There's a lot of kind of what if still for them. There are. They sort of feel where England have been the last couple of Australian Ashes series, where everyone's a bit unsure what the England batting line-up is going to be.

In Australia, I feel like they've been in that boat as well. Cam Green's batted at three. If he's bowling in, he's not going to be batting at three. There's no way he's bowling 15 to 20 over. That means it's probably going to move back to five or six or seven. That means someone else is going to miss out, whether there's Webster is going to miss out. That means they're going to have to find a number three plus an opening batter. Does that mean Marnas comes back in? I know Coagia probably hasn't been playing as well as he is,

but if you're going to drop one of your mainstays over the last couple of years as you're opening battered, then you're looking at two new opening batters. So I think they're going to take the safe option. I think Minus will come back in at three. I think Cam Green will go back five or six or seven. Coajie will open and they'll find one player to fill that gala. My thanks to Ebony and David. Well, that is it for this episode of the TMS podcast.

Make sure you're subscribed so that you'll subscribe. never miss an episode, including the latest no balls with Alex Hartley and Cape Cross. And you can keep up to date with all things cricket by following at BBC TMS on X and at BBC Cricket on Instagram. Thank you for listening and we'll speak to you next time. Welcome to the brand new podcast series Rugby League top 10 with me Mark Chapman. It's where John Wilkins, Brian Noble and Jamie Peacock will discuss, debate and argue over lists at the best players, games, finals, iconic moments

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