Test Match Special - What’s going wrong with English cricket?

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

After England crash out of the Champions Trophy, Henry Moeran and the TMS team ask just what’s going wrong at the moment. Across the men’s and women’s teams, England have lost 16 out of the 17 games they’ve played in 2025. Is it an attitude problem? An image problem? Captaincy? Or is there more to it than that? Henry is joined by World Cup winner Alex Hartley, and TMS colleagues Aatif Nawaz and Daniel Norcross

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you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and C's and C's Apply. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Henry Moran in Rao Pindy. It's the day after England have been knocked out of the ICC Champions Trophy at the earliest opportunity. Their record so far this year reads, played 10, 1-1, lost 9.

Add in the women's team, and English cricket sides have lost 16 of the 17 matches they've played in 2025. So what's going wrong? And why are so many people across the world taking so much pleasure in England's poor form at the moment? Is it the amount of 50 over cricket being played? The captain, Joss Butler, English arrogance. Is there more to it, perhaps, than all of that?

To work out what's going wrong, I've been joined by World Cup winner Alex Hartley and TMS colleagues Daniel Norcross and Artif Nawaz. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. English cricket isn't in a great place, and I guess the girls might be thankful that men have taken a bit pressure off them as well, you know, because there's going to be conversations to be had about the women and the men, but we're going to obviously focus on the men because they've been knocked out of this tournament.

Now, Afghanistan have beaten them again, and Afghanistan were the better side. A confident team win yesterday. You know, so confident England find ways to win. At the minute, England men and women, to be honest, are finding ways to lose games of cricket. They're not confident. They can't figure out ways to win.

Go on then, Daniel. You've been winding up for this, so give it some. Well, I just hope it's a watershed moment, frankly, for the England team. I'm going to use a rather heavy term here, but I feel we were slightly gaslighted by the England team, both the men's and the women's team. We've been told that, you know, they're out there to entertain and the results don't matter. Ben Duckett, of course, said, doesn't matter the results in India. It's the champion's trophy that counts. We hear this time and time again. We're informed about what terrifically talented players they are. But, you know, we were watching

the game yesterday, and there were various points when any other team in the world were sauntering to victory at 216 for four, needing another 109 to win in 13 overs with Joss Butler, England's probably greatest ever whiteball player, alongside Joe Root, who might be also England's greatest ever whiteball player. Between the two of them, isn't it? Certainly with the bat. And they've managed to contrive to lose. We looked at that side and thought, well, if they lose a couple of wickets, they're in trouble. But then they get into it again at 287 for six. They've got 26 six balls left to get 39 runs, nine and over, two set batters again. They contrive to lose it.

Now, the thing is that anybody can get out, no one's trying to get out, no one's trying to play badly. But the confidence is the important thing. You watched the way Australia ran down England's 350. England had everything that they wanted in this game. They were batting second, which is what they'd said they'd wanted. They'd actually kept Afghanistan to 325, sounds like a lot, but at Lahore. That's not an enormous total, although that does hide certain problems that English whiteball cricket has had for quite a while now,

which is a failure to replace Liam Plunkett, an inability to take wickets in the middle overs. There are various stats we were getting from CrickViz that show the toothlessness of England's bowlers. They don't have four proper frontline bowlers, and you look at the sides that are doing really well in this competition. New Zealand, a population of five million or under, they managed to. to have Ratchin Ravindra, Glenn Phillips, Michael Bracewell, all guys who could bowl you ten overs, all guys who can bat in the top seven. But we were saying this morning just how much of a miss Moines Alley is. Mowing, exactly. And they haven't replaced these players. And we've been given the idea

that, well, there's this wealth of talent coming through. And to lose to Afghanistan, who are a good side, don't get me wrong, they are not patsies by any means. England lost to them in Delhi in the World Cup. But England should be. be beating them. The wealth of experience they've got in that side that's played in Pakistan, root, brook, salt, ducat. These are guys who've played a lot of cricket in Pakistan, probably more than the Afghan side. They've got really no excuse. And that's why I say, like I said, right at the top, I hope this is a watershed. They're going to properly look at themselves. There's going to have to be a change of captain. We can discuss who that might be. But I think

there's got to be a change of approach as well. They've got to have a better balance to that side. And, I mean, I don't know what you can do domestically. A lot of people, I've no doubt, will say they've got to play more 50 over cricket. That's not going to happen. No other countries do. Do they really? I mean, I can't think of other countries that have a 50 over domestic tournament that their players play in regularly. So, you know, all other countries suffer from this issue, but England's players are not adapting.

Yeah, I mean, all of that is fair. I mean, watching that game yesterday was very disappointing, really, because, you know, England had many, many positions, as you said, Daniel. many times they got themselves into a winning position you looked at the wind predictor it was sort of you know 50-50 sometimes marginally in favour of England because those equations in modern cricket you have to close out a game from but some of the shot selection was maddening some of the strokes that some of the England batters played to get out yesterday

you sort of tore your hair out thinking why why did you you've got so many other options what is this strategy that you're committing to like what why is everybody like it's not quite like Pakistan where there's this lack of understanding or this lack of definition of roles. It's like everybody in the England team sort of committed to the same role. So I, you know, I mean, it was really frustrating. I mean, there was so many things in their favor yesterday. You know, everything was in hand.

They had partnerships. There was due on the outfield, so much due on the outfield, which should in theory make it more difficult for the spin bowlers, who, again, we should recognize, executed their plans brilliantly. They stuck to them and Afghanistan played a good game of cricket and deserved winners, but England should have done a lot better than that. from the performances, the positions they were in. And, yeah, I'm with you, really.

I think, you know, Josh Butler, it's been, like, I think we can go a step further and say he's already been lackluster since he's been handed the captaincy. This is one of the best whiteball players in the world. You see him perform at other tournaments where he's not the captain, like in the IPL, he scores 100 after 100, phenomenal performance, invincible at times out there in the middle. Like, he's just, the weight of this captaincy is bringing down his performance way too much.

So what you, for me, what you want to do is take that weight off, Joss, and say, go out there, be the best batter that we've got, go out there, do the extraordinary things you do out there in the middle, and let somebody else carry the burden of the captaincy. I think the frustrating thing for me when I watch England cricket, English cricket, sorry at the minute, in both teams, it's the arrogance of the players and of the staff and the messaging that we get.

You know, we want to entertain, we don't care about results. But you have to win for people to be entertained, because the public, for some reason, whatever reason that is, has fallen out of love with English cricket and it's a really sad place for England men and England women to be in. I agree, and I cannot think of anything more ironic

than the fact that Jonathan Trott, a man who is sort of associated with an antique way of playing one day cricket. England before 2015, you know, they'd play around Jonathan Trot. There was that hashtag, wasn't there, on Twitter, Trot's fault? Because he'd get 80 off 110. Well, he's been the coach of Afghanistan.

Brenda McCullum is this flashy, exciting coach of a flashy exciting side. And Afghanistan, well, they won it, you know, without the resources. But just by sticking to their guns, exactly as Attif said, their polar stuck their guns. And their batters did as well. At 30-odd-for-three, they could have panicked. They didn't. They got themselves back into the game. A brilliant knock from Ibrahim Zadran.

A superb knock. But they played around him, didn't they? And they played the match situation. I thought you've got to take your hats off to them. Well, one message on social media I thought was actually quite present, and that's from Barat Sanderosan, who, Australian cricket writer, who knows the game almost better than anybody in the world.

He grew up in India and a fascinating writer. He put out on X yesterday. There must be undeniably something about this England team and that the way they are for the rest of the cricketing world to take just so much glee in them losing and being knocked out early in big talk. tournaments, especially since they aren't winning that much to start with anyway. And that, I mean, that is pretty damning, actually.

And there is a sense that England are just, you know, and I'll see the big smile in your face. Because you'll know that you'll be speaking to people out here in Pakistan and knowing people that are looking on at this England team and think, yeah, serves you right. No, well, I mean, the one place in the world that you probably don't get a lot of that is Pakistan because there's a lot of goodwill for the England team. But I just wanted to point out that Baird's in the race and wonderful writer, as you say,

also now Australian, so there's a little... Well, there is, but I think he is quite even-handed. Yeah, for sure. No, absolutely. Barrett's lovely, and I very much enjoys chatting to him about wrestling amongst other things. But yeah, this England team, there is something... It was quite lovable for a while. People, particularly in this part of the world, really, really like England. I mean, so many of their players, like Daniel said,

have come over and played in the PSL at a time where it wasn't very fashionable to do so, where it was sort of like, oh, do you want to go to Pakistan? It's dangerous, security issues. So, but a lot of England players did come over here and played and flourish. And not just the two players that you see in the sort of international whiteboard teams, but sort of second tier players, if we can call them that, or, you know, T20 stalwarts or whatever you want to call them. They've all come here. So, and there's a tremendous amount of goodwill.

Now, there's still big support for both countries because there's a huge Afghan population in Pakistan as well, something like 2.8 million people. It's not sort of unlike naturalized British Pakistanis who might still support Pakistan or British Indians who might support India. There's a lot of sort of Afghanist. Pakistani Pakistanis who still support Pakistan and they create this terrific atmosphere. But England at the moment, like, it's bizarre because they've sort of made this transition to being somewhat not likable. And I'm not quite sure how that happened.

Artif is evident. They're not somewhat unlikable. Yeah, I'm trying to. I'm being polite about it. Clearly, the reaction. And the amount, if I could mute two words on social media and in fact, I think I might have to, it would be the words moral and victory because people, The way that England sort of have spoken about, you know,

oh, well, we're actually, don't mind us, we're just busy here saving the game. You just sort of think, well, who do you think you are? Well, yes. I mean, a lot of that's come from test cricket, hasn't it? And I'm a bit ambivalent about this because actually what Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullum did when they first came in and, you know, the basball stuff, if you like, back in 2022 was magnificent. It was magnificent for English cricket. they identified what English skills were

and they played to those skills. And in test cricket, yes, and they still are, you know, they lost that series against Pakistan, but they're very different circumstances. They'll give anybody a good game. They actually had a pretty decent series in India. They could have won two games out there, and that's not easily done,

unless you're New Zealand, of course, in which case New Zealand can win, well, they won 3-0, didn't they? Amazingly. But the white ball team is something a little bit different because that's supposed to be what their skills are. Now, I don't know how much longer we can go on, ignoring the fact that they've

got the worst record in the middle overs. Their pace bowlers, we go, we had a stat yesterday. They were averaging about 150 and they were going at nearly 8 and over. It was something extraordinary like that. We were getting from CrickViz. Harry Brooks dismissal yesterday. It's a very important role to play, batting it.

Number five, in that outfit. He got out to a ball that CrickViz identified it was a one in 100 chance of getting out. Now, I'm not for one minute saying that that means that Harry Brooke isn't a good cricketer, but they've got to put their hands up and say, we've played really badly. And that's what we never hear. We never hear we played badly.

We hear, you know, we're moving on. There's another game. The results don't matter. We hear those things. A bit of humility and a bit of self-reflection and a bit of public acknowledgement that you've actually had a shocker would be quite helpful, I think. Yeah, I saw on Twitter this morning that. Since Joe Roots slid down to number four,

he's been into bat in the fourth and the seventh over at number four. But they are, what was to go on down you? Because it's a quote you often mention that you, I can't remember where you heard it, and which of the players it was in the England women's side, but it was a quote that often annoys you from it. It drives me absolutely berserk this quote. It was a quote from Nat Siverbrunt,

who many people are saying might be the next England women's captain if Heather Knight isn't. And she gave an interview to Rand Nicholson, and the Guardian, in which she said a couple of things that slightly irked me. One of them was, you know, we're looking forward to the test match. We're willing to put our whites back on. I don't think willing is quite the word that should be being used here. And the other one, and this was the one that really sent me around the bend, was, well,

we're out here to make memories with our close friends. Well, I'm afraid you're not really, but if you are, you might also be mindful of the fact that you're making some shocking memories for a massive supporter base that's watching at home and has come out to the grounds to see you. You're not there to make memories for close friends. That's not what professional sport is. Can you imagine all Leonel Messi

if Argentina had lost the first three games in the World Cup saying, well, never mind, we've made some great memories with our close friends? I mean, it's a little bit condescending. We've made some good memories with our close friends, though, you know, on the tours we've been on. As the conversation, it goes on, by the way, on the live text page on the BBC Sport website

and an app as well with Jonti Coleman if you want to get in touch TMS at BBC.com.uk is the way to do so vent and let us know how you feel and maybe we're misreading it maybe you don't sense that there's that sense of arrogance and

feeling that they're untouchable and that somehow results don't matter but that said they kind of have said that which is we are only regurgitating what has been said time and time again in not quite as explicitly, as Ben Duckett said during the India series, you know, it doesn't matter if we lose these matches

if we win the Champions Trophy. And you just sort of know what he means. But equally, it's a reinforcement of a message that we've heard quite a lot of. I think they need media training again. Like, I don't know. Because we need more honesty from the team is what we do need. Are they not being honest or do they genuinely feel that?

Well, yeah, that's, yeah, that's the... Because what we don't want is them to just give platitudes that are nothing like what is actually going on in their heads. Because that is the worst of all worlds. But wouldn't it be odd if they think that they're in a great place after the results that they've had? They just cannot think that. Like, we were talking to a friend of mine last night and he was talking about how much pride it's worth to where the... He was talking about the pride of the star and the blazer and all these things that mean that you get to represent your country on an international stage.

This is a huge honour and privilege and it comes with responsibility. If you are unable to perform and execute your skills to the best of your ability, on that big stage, you need to show that it means something. You can't just say it's meaningless. You can't just say, no, no, no, that's the next thing. Don't worry, we'll win the next thing. If we win the next thing, nobody will remember this thing. And I understand that modern cricket is so busy and so like the things we move on all the time. But you have to show, as Daniel said so perfectly, some humility and accept that you have performed poorly.

People are looking up to you. People are following you. People are putting their time, effort, their hard-earned money to follow your game. You owe them at least the appearance that you're actually performing to the best of your ability. And it means something to you. That star on your chest, that crest when you wear it, you're representing your country, you're standing there for the national anthem, you're representing Team England, whatever country. I mean, there's so many countries here.

There's so much pride amongst them. I mean, Afghanistan are a big example of that. The flag waving, you know, the kind of the way they really value that ability to represent. I know there's many issues over there. You know, we can talk about the women's game if you want to a little bit later. But, you know, this is something that's really missing in the England team. I think people are feeling that disconnect between the pride of wearing that shirt, like the responsibility of wearing that shirt and representing England on the international stage.

Where is it? Where is that pride? Where is that sense of responsibility? Where is the contrition when you lose? Where is that humility that shows we're devastated to lose? Don't smile. Don't laugh about it. Like, just come out there.

and accept, show that you care, show that it means something to you, that you lost a game of cricket, a big game of cricket, a meaningful game of cricket, that your fans, your supporters, your media, your broadcasters, your country was excited about. This is something that's missing.

Maybe that's the reason they're becoming a little bit more pantomime villain-esque. I compare, in contrast it, with the New Zealand players, who seem to have a fantastic relationship with their public. Because I think, you know, they don't beat their chests wildly.

We're not asking for, for that, you know, sort of performative nationalism. That's not what this is about. But it's understanding that if you just keep on telling everybody that they're all wrong, it's not a great look, you know. And actually, you know, the media, you know, I'm sitting next to somebody here who was denied an interview by one of England's players during the women's ashes,

that the media are here to do a job. They're here to shine light on what you do, but also to promote you. Now, England journalists and England commentators don't want to be reporting on things going horribly wrong. They actually want to be... Because it's better for everybody who works in the media if the country that you mostly follow does well

because you know what? More people watch and more people listen. Well, this is what's interesting. And this is where sometimes you do see that disconnect from an interpersonal level that we deal with on the ground, if you like. And last year, head of the Men's T20 World Cup in West Indies. I spoke to Josh Butler on the eve of their first match. and I asked what's your team do you have a team for us

which normally England do name in 24 hours ahead of a game frequently named 24 even 48 hours ahead and no I haven't got a team and I said what are you thinking I don't have to give you my team was the words he said and I thought well no you don't have to give me your team you're not giving me I'm just holding a microphone for you to tell everyone else so you know irrelevant what you're doing in terms of the and I thought it's actually it's not a great interaction actually I didn't

think that that necessarily sure I might have asked a daft question and I frequently do but on that occasion it was a perfectly reasonable question and he bit and it was a really peculiar response and it's not like you're bothered like you're going if you don't want to give me the team that's fine but

do you know all the thousands of people millions of people that are listening to the radio would also like to know your team and also it reflects badly because it makes it look as though they think well by showing contempt to the question they're showing contempt to the people that might want to listen to the answer.

They can happily say, in that circumstance, at the moment, we're just trying to work a few things out. I've got training this morning, but I don't need to give you my team. If it was down to me, I would announce the team at the toss, but when you don't do that and you're asked the question, then there's no need to be snarkey about it. Should we hear from Josh Butler? I think we probably should. He's been speaking after yesterday's game and, you know, obviously very disappointed and after

the match last night. or he spoke to test match special as Adam Mountford. Joss, it was a fantastically exciting game, but that's, I'm afraid, not what you're thinking about tonight, I'm sure. No, of course. You know, obviously gutted to lose the game and be out of the tournament. Yeah, very disappointing. What you put the defeat ultimately down to?

I think, you know, close games like that, there's always areas that you can look at and moments here and there in the game. I think, you know, the last 10-overs got away from us with the ball. I think they scored 110, 113 runs or something in that phase. So obviously, if we could have restricted them to 20 less or so in that phase, would have made the chase easier. But, yeah, Joe Root played an amazing innings.

Needed one of us in the top six to stay with him and make a sort of match-defining partnership. And I think we would have got home. You say things got away from the team, obviously that you're three down for 30. Out of that point, in they're in control. Yeah, we are, absolutely. Trying to find ways to get wickets number four and five.

if you know, we would have had Afghanistan under a lot of pressure. You know, credit to Ibrahim, I thought he played a really great innings. But, yeah, obviously, you know, reflections is how could we have broken that partnership quicker? In terms of the bowling, obviously, towards the death, they say possibly losing control, that's over it went pretty well, but obviously that loss of control was obviously concerned. Yeah, absolutely. And the time someone scores 110 in the last 10 overs is disappointing. The guys were trying their best and we didn't execute quite as well as we're like.

We had a few injuries there to try and manage as well. But as I said, if we could have kept them to 20 less there or so, we would have won the game tonight. How much for a blow was that something like Mark Wood obviously was struggling? Other players was the walking wounded at one point, several subs going on and off. Was that a distraction for the team? Yeah, it's never idea. Obviously, Mark Wood bowled so well in those first few overs. Could have had two or three wickets quite easily.

and then, yeah, unfortunately, injured his left knee. So credit to him an amazing heroic effort to keep bowling somehow on one knee. So, yeah, and yeah, trying to plan for, you know, sort of whatever's people could bowl or whatever. It was difficult and trying to marry up that, trying to break that partnership with our main strike bowlers as well. So, yeah, it didn't work tonight. But after what happened with Australia the other night, chasing down 350-od, were you still confident you could do it? Yeah, of course, very confident. Obviously, there's a little bit of dew come in as well.

It's a fantastic wicket throughout the whole hundred overs of the match. And as I said, Joe Root played a typical Joe Root innings full of class and composure and character. And if one of us in the top six, as I said, could have stuck with him for longer, we would have got home tonight. You talk about the top six. A couple of shots that maybe people look at, Phil Salton. And obviously, Jamie Smith, first ball, Nabi Bowls, he plays that shot. In hindsight, would he have played it?

Yeah, he just hit it further out the ground. I think no one never means to get out when they play a shot. So I think the off-spinner coming on there is a great time to try and attack and unfortunately got out. You know people are going to ask questions about your position because of what's happened here, what happened in the World Cup. Are you still keen to carry on as in? And captain, are you starting to have a little think about really wanting to carry on doing this? Yeah, I think at the end of this and stuff, I think myself and the guys. guys above me can consider all possibilities, yeah.

Well, I was Josh Butler speaking to test match special as Adam Mountford last night. Right, some emails, TMS at BBC.co.uk. Jason in Cambridge should be an honour to wear the badge for your country. Unfortunately, players these days seem to see dollar signs as the main driver and more driven by franchise games that pay them more, whether that's true or not, and I'm sure it'll be individual for different players. Nick in Nottingham, I completely agree about the arrogance of English. as men and women. It often feels

as though players feel reluctant to answer the media's questions begrudgingly offering some kind of vacuous nonsense about entertaining and inspiring. What confuses me, though, is that Brendan McCullough and is a New Zealand team back in the mid-2010s. Well, it was all

about reconnecting with their country, becoming the team that everyone could relate to. Why is it so different? Now he's in charge of England, which is an interesting point. Daniel, go on. Just a quick one on that. think it's a bit early to tell with Brendan McCollum's white ball team. Oh, absolutely.

You know, he's had the India tour and this champion's trophy. And he's got a couple of issues, you know, I know it's a bit crazy to talk about Jacob Bethel being a key component to the side, but he would have been one of those guys who could bat on the top order and could have bowled a bit of spin. So he's missing that. He has, toothlessness has been bequeathed him a little bit in those middle overs. And actually, you know, the test team, we have talked about the test team. did connect pretty well with the public, especially when it first began.

And Ben Stokes, for example, has been very honest. You remember in the Pakistan series when he said, you know, I got a little bit tetchy, and I need not to do that. And he took a lot of responsibility on himself. So I'm going to be wary of sort of putting this loss onto Brendan McCullen because he's had two games in a major tournament. I think time will tell on that score. But you might say that, for example, the captain,

and has been there now for really quite a long time. One question from Jason in Worcester, Alex. Refreshing as it is to hear the team offering criticism of the England set up, they cannot disclaim two years of fulsome, unyielding support of McCullum and Stokes have been given a free ride by the media. I don't recommend reading comment sections,

but cricket fans have been saying exactly what you're saying today for over a year. Do you think there has been a little bit of a sense of, I suppose the accusation is a lovely, towards what England have been doing and perhaps the results haven't necessarily deserved that? I don't understand. Would you think that

the media have been overly positive of Stokes-McCullum, England swashbuckling cricket? I mean it was good to watch. It is good to watch. I got excited by it. Everyone got excited by the fact that whatever target is

set, England are 500 behind that they're going to try and chase it down. They'd lost Joe Roots' record for a long period of time, 17-1 or something ridiculous. And then they started winning games of cricket. So we all got excited about it. Of course we did. And then it was almost like, okay, we've won the 50-over World Cup in 2019,

but the test team's rubbish. So let's try and focus on test cricket. The test team then everyone fell in love with the test team, on and off the field, the journalists, the fans, and then the 50-over team are now rubbish. So they're trying to get the balance right 24-7. And I think, you know, it's fair to... I think the loving was earned.

And, you know, I remember being at those games, particularly in 2022 against New Zealand, the test series, where Brandon McCullum took charge. It was an incredible display from England. I remember Johnny Beirstow scoring 100 after 100, putting in phenomenal performances. I myself have watched England score an absurd number of runs, frankly, here in Pakistan, and got nearly 1,000 in one of the test matches. I mean, if you don't get excited about that, what do you get excited about? You've got Harry Brooks scoring a triple 100. You've got England establishing all sorts of records. and achieving some outlandish things,

particularly in test cricket, you load it. And like as a broadcaster, as a journalist, when you watch, you say what you see. If you're seeing something spectacular, you call it spectacular. If you're seeing something that is less than what you think is, is what is due,

then you call that as well. So I think it was fair, you know, inverted commas, the love in towards the team because they were performing things that we hadn't seen ever, really. Absolutely. We mustn't forget. to Pakistan and won 3-0. No one has ever done that before. They scored over 500 in a day on this very ground. They scored 800. Yeah, they've lost some test matches, often dead rubbers at the back end, notably against Sri Lanka at the Oval this year, but they'd won five test matches in summer. What I would say is that the England test team is actually quite well set up to play good dynamic test cricket, because they've got five batters, when Stokes plays, five batters, an all-rounder, keeper and four bowlers.

you've got to give them credit for the number of new people who've come into the side and performed immediately Jacob Bethel Tom Hartley, Schoer Bashir guys are taking five for on debut all the way back to Will Jacks back here

we're not seeing much of him, took six for on debut here so you've got to give credit where it's due my major issue is that the test team is actually pretty much fit for purpose yes it needs to rein itself in on occasion but it shows signs of doing that the one day team is not

and they don't acknowledge that it isn't and that's my issue they're just not a very good one-day team now this will happen sometimes if things happen in cycles but they're not they're not good enough they don't have all-rounders but it's the arrogance isn't it

well that's the thing you see because that's what I mean about getting gaslighted because instead of acknowledging that there are actually some issues with the one-day side and that what they need is somebody who can bat at four, five, six and can also deliver you ten overs

they just make out that there isn't a problem. Now, we're not stupid. We've seen how India set up and how New Zealand set up. We see how South Africa set up. We saw how Australia hunted down that total, and we saw how Afghanistan managed to beat England again for the second tournament running.

So don't tell us that it's a great team, acknowledge that, you know... There are some great players. There are some great players, but there isn't yet a great 11 that's fit for 50 over-purpose when they're put up against the best sides in the world. Neil says the criticism of the England test team is silly.

They've lost two series in three years. One of those was in India, the other on the pitches that rather changed in Pakistan. And they've just won in New Zealand where very few sides win. So I think we can slightly separate the two. I think maybe the criticism in terms of attitude. And that side of it is the messaging that has been in part driven by the media, yes, certainly. But also by the fact that England keep losing the final tests in series. and so they go 2-0 up and they yeah well aren't we great you know there is that sort of impression that that is what's happening and and the the whole moral ashes thing really has rubbed people up the wrong way up it's possible i mean i just i think about the england team like where that this is coming from and maybe they feel like through those extraordinary performances in test cricket that we've just highlighted maybe they feel like they've earned some goodwill and like you know they've earned some um you know a little bit of leeway and things like that but they've given they've

been given that goodwill, I think. You know, nobody's saying, you know, it's time to ask Brennan McCullum. Nobody's saying that. Everybody's being reasonable and suggesting, okay, it's early days. Maybe some changes need to be made. Maybe there needs to be a slightly different strategy in different formats of the game. Maybe a different group of players that need to be focused upon and their roles re-examined. But, you know, like, goodwill is absolutely fine. But you have to understand when you've, when you've, you know, put in a disappointing performance, people are going to be critical. This can't be news to a professional sports person, right? If you do, if you lose and someone says you lose, you can't get all

upset about it, right? Well, this is the point, isn't it? And I think you look at, say, the arrogance that came about from the Australian side, the Australian men's side that dominated the 90s and the 2000s. It's sort of entirely justified. They were brilliant. They won basically every single game they played. Australia's women, they walk around with confidence and shoulders back and heads held high because they win basically every game they play. But I don't actually get the impression that they're that arrogant as a side. But they were, you'd say fair enough. They were gutted when they lost in the T20 World Cup.

We were there. They were gutted when they won games in the women's ashes. They were gutted that they won because they didn't win in the manner that they wanted to win. Well, exactly. And their attitude, and it's fascinating when you speak to our colleagues from around the world. And, you know, they say entertaining and inspiring. Do you know what's entertaining for cricket fans that travel the world? And that's winning.

They don't, you know, a football fan who travels across the country on a cold Tuesday night would rather a one-nill scrappy win than losing four, three, every time. I agree. I mean, I'm going to be a bit devil's advocate and say that part of where we get this perception from is, we have to put this in context. England played more cricket during those COVID years than any other team. They were stuck in hotels.

You remember when they were taking people in and out of the game because people needed a break. You remember Johnny Birsto scoring 100. I think it was in Sri Lanka and was then left out at the next game against India so that you could have a bit of a break. Part of what happened when Ben and McCollum came in was you had a glum side that was exhausted.

And we should be fair about the fact that being an international sportsman or woman is difficult and being a cricketer is differently difficult because you spend a lot of time away and if you're cooped up in hotels and everybody's staring at you, you need to get a bit of joie de vivre back in what you do.

I get that completely. And they have focused quite a lot on that. That's partly what Ben Duckett is saying when he says the results don't matter as such. It's arriving at the tournament and doing well. Because if you did fixate on every single aspect of every game, you're up against the best players in the world. You're going to lose games.

They're trying to protect themselves from massive disappointment and their mental health and I completely get that but it's when they flip things around the other way and they tell us that they're good when they're not that is irksome I think the the sort of feeling that you know

yes England had it very difficult during that time yeah they absolutely did in terms of bubbles and everything else but there were lots of teams you know think about Australian players after that ODI series that they played in England at the back end of the summer of 2020 some of them then went to the Indian Premier League, great riches, everything else,

but they were again in quarantine and then they had two weeks of quarantine and all of these things and actually it was the same story for lots of players all over the world. I do get that element to an extent, Daniel, but I'm not sure that where are we now?

Four and a half years down the line that necessarily holds true with how the public perceived this England white ball team. I think that there is a problem absolutely with messaging in terms of things like the practice story the other week.

And in the end, and it was said on air by Ravi Shastri on television, that England had had one net session for the entire time. There's something along the lines that they'd had a ludicrously small amount of time training when they could have been otherwise. And it turned out that actually had done a little bit more than that, and it wasn't actually that accurate, and they had trained reasonably hard. But the fact that there is this perception

and that these things are quickly snatched upon, and people say, oh, back on the golf course, it's, in some ways, they've got to work doubly hard to ensure that this perception goes away. They do, and you have to sort of acknowledge that appearances are important in cricket. If you're losing games of cricket

and you're perceived to be not caring about it, now the truth is everybody sort of processes, you know, sporting grief in a different way, and maybe some people like to go and play golf and clear their head and come back and put in a decent performance. But your appearance is very important, particularly when your fan base is a rabid fan base,

I was just saying off here to Daniel, I can see a lot of smiling Pakistani cricketers right now here in Raupindi in the rain. Those pictures when they get beamed out across Pakistan are not going to be well received because the fans aren't smiling. They're disappointed by the performances. They want to see them, you know, like sad, angry, motivated, you know, that's what you want. And, you know, if you're losing games of cricket in India, fans want to know that you're trying hard and you're building and you're preparing in the best possible way.

Now, okay, there's cricket preparing for a cricket matches more than just a net practice. And we know that and, you know, the teams know that. And obviously they'll be putting in what we imagine. It will be a very decent amount of preparation. And it's just like you have to be wary of your appearance a little bit in the game. I'm not saying it's the most important thing, but you do have a responsibility to satiate this fan base. And you do that either by performing, that's what we prefer,

but also just showing the right emotion at the right time. And I take your point, Henry, it's very difficult because sports people are under tremendous pressure, particularly that phase since COVID and the grind of traveling and being away from your families for months and months on end it's difficult it is very difficult but it is in the job description like this is part of what you've got to do this is what you and you're compensated very well by the way to do this right you're given fame you're given adoration when you perform well people love you you're on the front page of every newspaper everybody's talking about you everybody loves you social media bloody bloody blah everything is wonderful but when you don't perform

well there's a flip side to that as well and you have to sort of your appearance the what the vibes you're putting out there have to reflect that little bit and be sensitive to that, I would suggest. And also, there are little stories that will gather pace perhaps unfairly, perhaps not. Jimmy Anderson, bolding consultant missing the start of the Pakistan talk because he's playing

the Celebrity Pro Am. It wouldn't necessarily actually have gathered that much by the way, England won the game. But, and that is worth remembering. But it's things like that that actually just reinforce a public perception that this England team need to change.

It does. But I think that we can fixate on it just a little bit too much. I think, you know, hopefully they get the message. What I'm just as interested in is how do they turn it around? And it isn't immediately clear to me how they turn it around, because if you go back to when English white ball cricket was really good, a couple of things were different, well, three of them really, significantly their captain, who was very technical actually. I mean, remember, you used to get little messages out in the numbers that were referring to different matchups and actually were getting very different messages

from the team at the moment about how that sort of thing isn't important. I think it is, I think they know it is and you can overdo analysis, you can underdo analysis at the moment there's a perception necessarily underdoing analysis so you've got the captain is different, you've actually got difference at the top of the order.

They had one of England's strongest ever, if not the strongest ever opening partnership in Beirstow and Roy. They also had hails early on. they were scoring a lot of runs up top they had established batterers in the middle in Root and Morgan they had balance by having Stokes the balance of the team isn't right at the moment

they've got batters and they've got bowlers when Jamie Overton is being picked to come in at number seven that's a problem I mean he's not coming in number seven for Surrey so why is he coming in number seven for England that's kind of weird I mean he was eight yesterday but he has come in at seven there's a lot of inexperienced players you yourself mentioned that Jamie

Smith batting at number three he's got an important place, isn't it? When did he last bat at number three? Six years. Six years ago, when he was at what? About 18, 19 years old. Okay, well, I'm going to, the elephant in the room here, is England don't play 50 off of cricket? No, but nobody does. Nobody does. Yeah.

You know, this is about, it's about experience cricketers as well. You know, England have come into this, but Jamie Smith who's got no experience of international cricket to speak of, Jacob Bethel, who was going to be, you know, the great hope, who had next to know, experience of cricket. It's only just coming to the side this year. Briden Cars has at his first

winter away. You know, there's a lot of inexperience there. Saki Mahmoud hasn't played a great deal. They've got Joffre Archer, they've got Adul Rashid, arguably Mark Wood has never really been a white ball bowler. They don't have experience at the very top of the order. Phil Salt's very much a T20 player, hasn't played an awful lot of 50 over cricket. They've got Root. They've got Brooke, they've got Butler. But it's actually, when you compare it to look at, you know, you look at the New Zealand side, that's a really quite experienced outfit. You look at the India side, really experienced. Even Australia's top order, you know, they've got problems with their bowling line up, but they've got some pretty experienced players there. So England have got a problem,

which is that they're bringing through players at the moment. So you might say, maybe we should give them a bit of slack, because they're finding their feet. certainly a point and certainly something that will be interesting to see but the problem is they play so little 50 over cricket internationally now for the rest of the year that we're not going to really know where they are in terms of that format of the game for quite some time I am intrigued into this sort of public messaging thing and there was an interesting article written by Chris Stocks one of our journalist colleagues in the eye newspaper head of this championship during the ODI series that was played in India

I'll just read a couple of paragraphs and it was about the Ravi Shastry comments in England playing golf and one thing and another and what Ben Duckett had said. And he said, the real story here is England piling pressure on themselves just as it was during their dreadful campaign in 2023. Their obsession with golf is killing them when it comes to public perception.

It doesn't matter that Australia's players played even more golf during that tournament. They won it. And until results improve, it would serve England well to stay off the Greens, practice more and show a little humility when speaking publicly. Otherwise, the cross-format basball project could turn very ugly, very quickly.

And I think that sort of rings true. There's nothing wrong with playing golf. Absolutely nothing wrong with it, right? And that's the point he's making. Of course. We've got to remember, English sports fans are fickle. All it takes is England to have a good World Cup, a good tournament, a good series, and people will fall in love with them again.

but England have to find the right captain they have to find the right coach they have to find the right formula to start winning games of cricket again and then the fans will fall in love with the men and the women that's what happens You're absolutely right and let's move on to that big question

then who's going to captain this side because I can't see Josh Butler continuing as white ball captain No I can't either and I think it will be good for him actually to not captain this side and just focus on his batting and play that role that he plays so well

when he's playing franchise cricket I would still say England's best of a white ball player, you know, just phenomenal to watch his box office. There's so much excitement about seeing him in Pakistan as well, you know, in the matches in Lahore. There were huge Josh Butler signs and so many fans of his that came to see him. So I think, you know, it would be good for him in terms of who replaces him. Well, there's a few candidates out there, but I'd probably throw my weight behind Harry Brooke.

I know he's had a little bit of experience in it, but he's very, very young. He's got the kind of personality where I think he can be variable in the sense that he can be quite easygoing when he needs to be but he can also I think he can inspire a group I think they can get behind him if not sort of with his words necessarily certainly with his performance he can put in those match winning performances he's a player of gravitas already you know so young how he's like 22 years old 23 years old very very young maybe a little bit older than that but just you know he's already got gravitas he's already got so many a laundry list of achievements behind him in both the franchise world and international cricket so I think he's a credible choice

he's got a little bit of experience of doing it before again probably needs to work on his messaging and on his appearances on the vibes that he's putting out there but I think he could be a good long-term choice for England bring back Ben Stokes is that the answer

is that the short-term answer it's not is it no I think I agree with you Artif I think I'm back in Harry Brooke as well I think he's a solid player but you don't want the captain you don't want somebody like Harry Brooke to be captain and his performance drop off like we've seen just

butler so you have to pick the right person mentally so they've got to be mentally strong to take on this job well in fairness his performance hasn't been that great at the moment so i don't know where it would drop off too at the moment but i i agree it it has to be harry brook because there's no other option you know people have said phil salt i don't think he's guaranteed his place in the side um leum livingston not guaranteed his place in the side joe root's not going to be doing it so who else is it. Jopra Archer, Adul Rashid, no. So it will be Harrybrook. I don't think there's any question about it. He does need to improve the messaging though. After that ODI, Trent Bridge had asked you and he said to me, we're out there to score runs. If you get caught somewhere on the

boundary or on the field, then who cares? And it gets clarified it later, but you've got and people went wild because they said, well, I care. I've taken a day off work and spent 150 quid. Yeah, but the thing that the messaging, what he means is, next time we'll hit it further, hit it into the stands and those was the messages that Owen Morgan had within the group within the group yes I agree with you and it's exactly what it needs to happen

isn't it they just need to be able to they just need to be able to speak better is basically it and at the moment they're not so they're saying things that they shouldn't be saying they're miss speaking and you'd hope that that might change

because people are going to tell them aren't they I mean it's not just us who are saying it When he says who cares and everyone goes completely berserk, he did then clarify it because he realized that what he'd said was not the right thing to say. But the fact that he said that at all, does that scream somebody that should be captained? Well, you'd hope that he learned from that experience, right? And then he realized that backlash kind of settled him a little bit. I was actually just thinking about the 499 that England got against the Netherlands. And I sometimes wonder if it did them good or bad, really, because it's sort of like people have hyped the wrong thing almost off the back of that.

there's this sort of obsession with breaking the 500 run barrier and doing something spectacular that people will remember forever and the fundamentals maybe are falling away a little bit there I was just thinking about that match I don't know if you know captain that tour yeah I do I do Owen Morgan is his final tour

he resigned as England captain just after that yeah I mean I know Owen Morgan was different gravy though wasn't he I mean everybody I think he had a kind of gravitas that's different and he took a side over and he had quite a long stretch so he took over a side He took over a side that was right in the doldrums after the 2015 World Cup and he was given four years to make it happen. You remember the very first game they played.

They went hard, didn't they? There was a series in England. I think Jason Roy might have got out first or second ball, but he said an interview afterwards, I've been given licence, I've been given the summer. Owen Morgan was kind of the guy that they could all get right behind. Unfortunately, for Joss, it hasn't happened for him. But I don't think Joss has had the best team.

We've mentioned this. I've been talking about balance, but you know, you took Liam Plunkett. These are players that need to be replaced and they haven't found replacements for them yet. There's a dearth of all rounders in English cricket at the moment, people who can genuinely bowl 10 overs and can genuinely bat in the middle or lower middle order and be effective. They don't have that. So that's why they're kind of shoehorning players in. And so sometimes, you know, we can fixate about how a captain appears and what they say

and whether they're inspirational. But look, you know, if Joss Butler had to captain us to go out on the field, he's going to lose every time. It doesn't really matter what he says to the media. Now, I'm not saying England are as bad as that, but by comparison with other sides, they're not set up to win tournaments. Sorry, you just wanted to clarify,

it was 498 against the Netherlands. Sorry, I'm getting a lot of messages from people saying, it was 498, I beg your part. You talk about the dearth in quality. Well, the message again, the messaging is always, oh, we've got so many brilliant, brilliant players coming through. They're all terrific.

Everything's wonderful. Everything's rosy. But I'm not sure there are, really. There are. There's so many talented players, and you think of the players that have come in, you look at Jamie Smith,

is going to be an unbelievable cricketer Bethel. You know, you've got somebody like Dan Mosley. Will he get a go? I think he's an unbelievable spin bowler. I actually think he would do a job on the international stage.

There are good players in England. There's just something going wrong in that dressing room, whether it's the captain. I don't know. You know, he's come out and said he's going to have a think about whether or not he's the right person to take this team forward, but I don't, I think he knows he's not. Well, should it be in his hand? Well, I don't, I think that's what you say, isn't it, at that point?

I don't think he's going to be doing it. Talking to Michael Atherton in the corridor out there, I said, you know, how did it feel yesterday? Well, it just feels like a slog at the moment. And Josh Butler can go back into the ranks. Joe Root did, and it didn't revive his career. He was actually batting pretty well when he was captain. But when he went from the test captaincy back into the ranks, he's been averaging well into the mid-50s.

Get a new lease of life is what you get. Absolutely. And, you know, he's such a brilliant generational talent, Joss Butler, that I would love to see him freed up. And he would be a great asset for a new captain. Because, you know, part of what's not been going right, incidentally, results-wise, is Joss Butler's form. Yesterday, he was in the middle of a very fine partnership with Joe Root

and he got out trying to... try to hook a ball above shoulder height out into the deep. When it was unnecessary, you know, when England were going very nicely, that was one of those balls that in Australian in the same situation were just like, just oh well, you can have that, that can go through to the keep, we've got plenty of balls. His mind doesn't seem to be quite in the right place, and he doesn't seem to be quite in the right form, and that can happen when you're a captain of a side that's going pretty badly.

If he comes back into the side and performs like we know he can, then suddenly the new captain has got a really serious middle-order batter. And that's where England have been failing, isn't it? They haven't been scoring enough runs. And then in this tournament, when they started to do that, Ben Duckett getting his 160, getting up to 317 yesterday, albeit on a good pitch, their bowlers aren't strong enough.

So, look, I still just think that they're not a particularly good team, and that is an issue that they will have to address. And I think Mosley is an option. That's one we're going to talk about. Gus Atkinson is one that they've earmarked in the test arena. is he going to be good enough in white ball cricket? We don't see a lot of variations, do we? What do you think about Mark Wood?

How many slower balls do you see from him, and yet we watch India's bowlers, and there's, you know, harsh-it Rana. He's relatively new to international cricket, and he's got variations, back-of-the-hand slower balls, slower bounces, Hardik Pandey, are exactly the same thing. England, a bit one-dimensional. It reminds me of a letter that was sent into a newspaper.

We all wrap this up in a moment, but it was after some criticism of a new television show back in the 90s. And the crux of the letter that was written in was the script isn't very good and the acting isn't very good and the storyline isn't very good

and it concluded with if they can get a better cast, better scripts and some stronger stories I'm sure it'll be a great success and it sort of feels a bit like that you're sort of like yeah. So was that Eldorado?

Because if it was El Dorado which started very badly I can tell you that it ended brilliantly There are two months of Eldorada, remind the best soap I've ever seen in my life. But it sort of feels like you're saying, yes, they're close here, they're close here, they're closing. Sort of, sort of.

Yeah, sort of close. I think the main thing to come out of all this is the arrogance of the team. Yeah. Both teams, you know, and the messaging across the media. That can be solved quickly. Yeah. I would add to that that they, like,

the sort of the road to contrition sort of starts or the road to building a better relationship with their fans. their media, the journalists, the people who follow and support English cricket, is to just have a little bit more self-awareness and take some accountability about your performances. That's what's desperately missing, I think, at least the perception is that, that they're not holding themselves accountable for their performances on the pitch. Like, they owe it to their fans to give them that. They owe it to their fans and their journalists to, you know, to do that job and to show that they're trying to do that job and to show that they care about that job. is what's really important. This is where the road to contritioners, I say, begins. Yeah, they should want the fans to fall back in love with them as a team, men and women. Daniel? Yeah, I mean, that's, I can't really add to that. That's sort of what we've been saying all along. I don't know, we have to look at T20 cricket to find 50 overplayers, don't we? And that's a little bit of an issue. In every country, though. Yes, I know. But what you're finding with something like New Zealand is the likes of Will.

young Tom Latham, K. Williamson, Glenn Phillips, Darrell Mitchell. They're very experienced. Your 50-over team, maybe what we're learning a little bit about here is that the 50-over team could do with being experienced cricketers because they've got to be players who can adapt their game to a format they hardly ever play. And so I give you one name that's been overlooked and should have been in this squad.

It's a very experienced. Liam Dawson. Liam Dawson. There you go. And we need another spinner. Well, Liam Dawson wouldn't have been a start. They've also, I mean, they did this thing, this really bizarre thing with Rian Ahmed, where they sort of took him to India and then didn't play him in any of the games. And then we saw him on our flight back in here as he was leaving from the wire connecting flight to Dubai.

And then he's been brought back in and he might play in garage. He might not, we'll wait and see. But, yeah, absolutely, I think, you know, there's, there's players out there that England has access to. You know, a lot of them have been mentioned as well, just thinking about the conditions a little bit and who would be a good combination for this team. I mean he can only get better right he can only get better well I like we're going to finish with this quote that our colleague

Tim Peach has just reminded me of he said yeah started off badly tailed off in the middle the less said about the end the better black adder well we will find out how how the end is for England

in this champion's trophy they play against South Africa on Saturday will be live 845 in Karachi I forget they've got another game I know at least it's not the World Cup where they had about three or four by the time they'd

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