Test Match Special - When Micah met Carlos

Episode Date: November 10, 2021

Mark Chapman finds out more about West Indies T20 World Cup winner Carlos Brathwaite and former Premier League defender Micah Richards.The pair met briefly on the Monday Night Club, but here they have a chance to discuss their shared Caribbean heritage, love of football and the difficulty they both faced after their ‘career-defining’ moment in sport.Carlos goes into detail about those four infamous sixes he hit in the 2016 T20 World Cup Final and his subsequent West Indies captaincy, which wasn’t welcomed by many of his colleagues and teammates.We find out if either could have played any other sport and delve into their new jobs in punditry. Plus, the pair try their hand at reading the classifieds, and in a game of ‘This or That?’, we find out just how much they have in common.TOPICS: 01’40 The first meeting on the Monday Night Club 3’30 A shared Caribbean heritage 6’00 Why Carlos moved to Portsmouth 9’00 The ‘Caribbean cricket’ stereotype 10’00 Did either know just how good they were at a young age? 16’00 Why Micah never played cricket 17’00 Micah tests his cricketer knowledge 20’00 The changing image of cricket 25’00 A love of football – Man City v Man United 29’40 Winning the T20 World Cup in 2016 and moving on from ‘career-defining’ moments 34’00 Micah on the pressures of playing for England and winning the Premier League 38’00 Criticism as a captain 41’00 When Micah knew it was time to retire 46’00 Getting into punditry and having to criticise former/current teammates 54’00 Reading the classifieds 58’40 This or that? Just how much do they have in common?

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The Sports desk from BBC Sports. Available now on BBC Sounds. Now, back to your podcast. From Five Live Sports, this is the TMS podcast. So hello and welcome to this special podcast, which we are calling when Micah met Carlos, which is great, isn't it? Because I appear not to even be in the top. title of the show. So there we go. What a strong start that is.

Joining me, Mark Chapman, because nobody else is going to say it for the rest of this hour. Micah Richards, ex-Premier League defender and colleague, alongside former West Indies T20 captain Carlos Brathaway. For those of you who don't listen to the Monday Night Club every week, I can't believe there are that many that don't. This is why we are all together, because a few weeks ago, go, this happened. This is Five Live Sport with Mark Chapman.

Go to Cricket for the next hour on Five Live Sport. West India, welcome, with a Carlos' evening. Carlos, how are you? Good evening, I'm good, I'm good, how are you? I'm very well, thank you. I'm slightly perplexed because there's a third member of the team because I can never get him to hang around to do any extra work. But because you're on, Micah wants to stay on and have a chat. Yes.

We've got a legend on, I just wanted to say hello. Honestly, I love you. No, you're joking. You would bravo. I remember the famous comrade. Breathwit, remember the name. I'm having a little bit of a fanboy moment. So, one of the producers just telling me, Michael, what to speak to.

Do you know him? And I was like, no, I know of him. He's like, yeah, he wants to have a shot. He was like, who me? He's a Caribbean thing. You know what I mean, Chapman? He's a Caribbean thing. He's an island man.

I'm an island man. my man those say kids in the house it's a pleasure to be able to connect with you man I loving everything you're doing in media that laugh I'm told is a lot better and more raucous than mine is and that is a feat in its own

but that's nice I'm glad I've brought the two of you together and I'll start working on some projects for the two of you and this is the first one I mean I have the power I've delivered this next hour where the two of you can have a chat

Michael, we haven't a bit of a joke since then because it did amuse me Carlos with Michael going island boys, island boys together and I'm thinking Micah, you're from the island of Harrogate? I mean Crawling into that heritage, Rock.

Yeah, absolutely. And your heritage Michael, before we go on to Carlos's heritage, your heritage in all seriousness is St. Kitt? Yes. My mum and dad both from Senkitz and they both got the same name. So I've got, it's so confusing. Two parts of my family and they're both Richards.

So all my mum size Richards and all my dad's size Richards, which is confusing. So my mum and dad came over when they was six and seven. And yeah, Caribbean people are just so chilled out and whatnot. I've only been back a couple of times. And Sankis is only small. I think it's only got like 50,000 people compared to like Barbados. Barbados is a posh side compared to, you know.

to Senkits. It is, it is. Honestly, you go to Barbados there's houses for like 15, 20 million dollars and all that thing

but my mum and my dad were from there so we were just humble people coming from, from Senkits. So Barbados is not humble. So I don't want to try put this is like

where, Sinkets is like Manchester. You know what I mean? Proper, proper, you know, proper Caribbean. And like I would say Barbados is like London.

where they think they're the best of everything. They get all the nice resorts. You go there and you get charged, I don't know, $10 just for a bit of water. Do you know what I mean? I'm surprised you've not got a salt bay there, to be honest. So he had messaged me about opening one. Nah, just kidding.

But yeah, actually, Stinkets is Mysak at home, actually. I've played for Stinkets for four years in CPL. I was called the Prince of Sinkets until the day. Oh, my gosh. And who was the king me? No, no, you know you are, yeah, no. The king of the princess and kids together.

So it's beautiful, man. And Nevis is about a 20-minute boat ride. Oh, you gotta go back home more than afternoon, Dan, Micah. How often do you go home, though, call us? If the summer I'm playing cricket in the US or in the Caribbean, any of the islands, I often get back home for a bit. So I've been back home the last month or so, you know, just chilling, working on the time. you know

guys of Pinacolada's though Chappas do you know where Carlos lives because before you came on you know because she was late because he was late to the Zoom

well hang on I mean can I just explain why in my really showby's world I'm having a new carpet fitted and I had to just make I had to make the guy fit in the carpet a cup of coffee

so that was all just before coming here anyhow this is about YouTube but go on do I know where he lives No, I don't. He lives in Portsmouth. Do you? Yeah. So we lived in Oxford.

My wife is an NHS palliative care physio. By the way, she doesn't do any physio on me. And she got a really nice job offer in Portsmouth. So we've traded, I've traded Barbados for Oxford, firstly. And now she's forced me to trade Oxford for a lovely seaside Portsmouth. First of all, Carlos, what an important job. job your wife does. Having had experience within my family of palliative physiocare, what an important job that is. First of all, joking aside, you must be very proud of the job that she does.

No, I am. She did a few rotations when she came to England first, and she absolutely loved chest physio, and then she got offered to go to the palliative care in the same hospital, and it was just like, that's heavy. Like, how do you handle it? And she was like, nah, I love it because I get to interact with them. They know their fate. And I then am tasked with the job of ensuring that, you know, the last few days on earth are filled with fun and light and joy and love.

Unfortunately, for me, she uses all of her patients at work. She spreads all of her love at work. And, yeah, I get the rest of the best of her. She absolutely loves the job. And I guess the first time that I really understood the magnitude of what she does was she got a letter from one of the families. And she brought it home and she was crying. And I didn't know what this was.

I thought job termination type thing. And she was like, you know, like I really got really close to this person, spend a lot of time. Because she's real. She doesn't talk about work for anonymous reason. She doesn't want to talk about her patients and stuff for confidentiality reasons. and then she brought this letter home, nice gift card. And as I was reading it, I'm a cry, I really emotional too.

And I was reading, I was like, rah, like, you know, you actually leaving a big impact on people's lives and not only the lives of the persons that are losing it and passing on after the palliative care stint, but the families and stuff. So I think I now getting an appreciation for the job that she does. And I guess throughout COVID, you get a greater appreciation for not only her job, but the workers on the front line and stuff.

And then the second part, I suppose, of that, is, is that, I've been to Portsmouth several times, is the Barbados seaside, very similar to the Portsmouth seaside? Somewhat. By somewhat, I mean, not at all. They both have water. And that's it. Let me take you both back then to, to growing up and going into your careers. I mean, I reckon, and Micah probably has this same stereotypical image of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, you know. growing up in the Caribbean just playing cricket or on a beach or on a wreck and that is the that

is the path that you have is that a stereotype is that what happened to you yes I know you'd have cricket in the street and we'd play so we got narrow streets and we'd play if you hit the houses full you're out so you're either placing the ball between houses or hitting the wall making sure it's into the ground and the thing you'd love about cricket as well you'd create any little thing with a vertical shape and any little ball and you could go. So there was a law street cricket. I didn't play much beach cricket, if I'd be honest. For me, it was tape ball cricket. So you get a tennis ball, you put some electric tape around it, cover it, and he used that as your ball. Did you play football as well, then, Carlos? Yeah, it would have been a better

right back than certain persons. I would have probably burst onto the scene as well. Yeah, I laughed. He's used it against it. No, but on a serious knockout, when he was that age, did you know you was better than everyone else, or was it gradual? No, I was just enjoying it, like, literally just loving, playing. My dad said when I was three years old,

he used to come home from work, be tired, ready to fall asleep on the floor, and I'd have a ball in hand, a batting hand, and forcing him to throw balls for me. So I just enjoyed it, and it just so happened that he become good. Hang on, Micah, hang on, did you, When you were playing football as a kid, know you were better than everybody else?

To a certain level, yeah. I was always faster, stronger, more technically gifted than most. But at that level, it's only school, isn't it? So you're at school, then you go for lead city boys, and it was just too easy. I went to Oldham Athletic at 10-11, and I was the best player there for a couple of years.

But it was only when I went to Man City at 14, I got a rude awakening I was the worst player so it got to that level where it was just best best best and then you sort of don't know what to do it's quite strange in the way that

like all this all this time people tell you how great you are you're going to make it and then you get to 14 and you're like I don't think I can make it at this level the levels were technical

the levels were just the game was quicker everyone was a lot more technically gifted tactically they knew what they was doing because a couple of them players there had been playing since there was eight in the academy so they already had a couple of years

experience on me and all my strength and pace and technical ability was so much lower than theirs and I didn't know what to do to be honest and then it was crazy because everyone thought oh I went to City played for Man City at 17

you must have been the best player but I wasn't on 14 14 to 17 was probably the hardest in my career in terms of people doubting me and then as soon as I got my chance, I just had to take it. I think what's interesting, Carlos,

and you hear Mike a talk then about, you know, lead city boys at 11 or going to Alderman at 11 is when sports starts to get serious for him, which is, you know, when he's still a kid, really. At what age did it start to get serious for you? Well, around that same age, you started to think,

representing your national team in under 13 competitions. But I think where my experience slightly differs in comparison to his is that my cousin was always better than I am. So my cousin, Jonathan Carter, he would have been playing on the 11s the same time I was playing on the 11s. And there was a game, he scored a century. Mind you, we're playing 30 over cricket or 25 over, something like that. On the 11th, you got 100 and to all 10 wickets in the same game. So for me, I always knew you're not that good, buddy.

not even the best of your family So I always had a leveler in my family And then when you get under 13 level It was like a close-knit group of boys So it was a matter of knowing you're good enough To play for your country And then just trying to keep being better And better and keep trying to raise shudy ranks

Knowing that you're good enough to play for your country At such an early age Yeah, it was a little bit of pressure to be honest Because my dad is an avid cricket fan lover player or whatever but never made it to national level so for a period of my childhood i felt as though he was living vicariously through me so he realized look my son got the talent to go on play for barbaders play for west indies i need to push him as hard as possible sometimes it was a bit too hard are we still look back and we still laugh um at some of the things that he would have done and said um

but yeah it was grounding as well because you play on the 13 you go back to school you're the boy at school, all the girls know you know, and you know, you can get to your head quite easy. When you get back home and your dad's letting you know, well, yeah, you didn't do well in school, so you're being banned from football, you're being banned from cricketers that your eye go, stay focused here. And that's quite interesting, actually, because my dad was the complete opposite. My dad was just so relaxed and chilled. He didn't say anything.

He didn't give me any feedback. He just said, go out there and enjoy it. Because Caribbean parents, let's say, they can be tough. My dad was just the most relaxed person ever. And when I used to go to football, that was my, like, oh yes, thank God we're out of the house. Do you know what I mean? So we've got a really, really good relationship. But from a young age, I just love football.

Football was just the one thing you could get away. So you didn't do any other sports? Well, rounders, is rounders a sport, chappers? Does it come? Right. Well, yeah, because, just in case the International Rounders Association is listening. And as a go, as a go at you, yes, and, you know, lots of kids play Rounders at school. Rounders is, you know me, Micah, I have to be impartial.

Rounders is definitely a sport. So aside from Rounders, but you never played cricket then, Micah? No, cricket was boring in our school. You know what I mean? It was like, if you play cricket, you're no good at football. Football was the number one. There's no one else playing cricket. Rounders was easier because it was just easy.

You get the ball, hit it as far as you want. Cricket was very technical, and we didn't really have enough players who wanted to play cricket, so we never. And that's why I'm so intrigued. Like when we was doing the radio over there, I was like, no way. Carlos Brake, we're like, I don't pretend I know loads about cricket. And that's why I wanted

to speak to about and learn about different things. But yeah, cricket was never big. And because I'm from the Caribbean, it should have been a lot bigger, but because football was just, it just ruled my life. Was it big for your family? And you just didn't fall into it? Or was it not big for the family at all then? I think my dad would always look out for the results and stuff like that, so he would support the West Indies. But when you live in England, it's football. Look at all the airtime that other sports get compared to football. It's really non-existent.

I know on the radio and stuff, cricket gets a lot of love now, but when I was young, cricket was just, if you're from the Caribbean or you're from India or Asia, that part of the world, that was their number one. So I went to India. Do you remember when I was ringing the bell, chappas? I put it on my Instagram. Yeah, yeah.

I can't remember what ground it was at. It was, Eden Gardens. Yes, Eden Garden. It was amazing, amazing experience. Not that amazing that you can remember where it was. I mean, you know. It was brilliant. It was nice to see some of a different.

And like over there, all the cricketers are like the major stars. I couldn't believe it. And like you come to England. And if you cricket, well, there's some big, like you got broad who's massive. He's on. This will be brilliant, Carlos, this. This will be brilliant.

Right, Micah names, Micah names superstar cricketers in this country. Go on then. Go on then, Micah. So you've got broad. So we've got broad. First name. I know that's first name. That's not fair, chappas.

That is not fair because when we're talking about footballers, we never say their first names. Do we? Let's be honest. We always address people. But you're not everyone. calls you, but you're a full name. No one says Micah, no one says, Richard. No, no, everyone says Micah, Micker, actually. Mika Richards. Everything is Mika Richards, full names only.

Stuart Broad. Yes, well done. Yes, okay, we've got Stuart Broad, okay. We've got Birsto, Ginger, yes, I remember it, Johnny Birsto. Yeah, yeah. Yes, Johnny Birsto, okay. Kevin Peterson, I know he's retired now. Yeah, how about now, England's best batter, right, playing in the T-20s, played with Carlos at Manchester. He is, he is a world superstar. I know you. Stokes, Ben Stokes. That is someone, but that wasn't who I was talking about. Yeah, Ben Stokes. Yeah. Oh. All right, I'll give you a clue, Michael. I'll give you a clue. You probably have this person's surname. You probably have two of them. Two of them, two of them in your Harrogate mansion.

Well done, Carlos, well done. I have two of them. Definitely. One upstairs, one downstairs. Yeah. A kitchen? Do you have an upstairs kitchen? What about, oh, I know who you mean.

I know who you mean. Is it first, Alistair? No. No, but that would work, that would work. Yeah, and it's along those lines. And this is why in mathematics, you have to show you. working and not just the answer. Answer wrong,

but you're working, we'll get you a couple points. Alastair Cook? Yes, yeah, you might have two cooks. Right, so think of another member of your staff. Another member of your staff. I'll just tell him, Carlos. No, no, don't tell me, don't tell me, don't tell me, don't tell me.

Fresh Prince of Bel Air, who was one of the funniest parts of the cast? Oh, I know, I know who you mean. Butler! Yes! There we go. A little bit of charades. What's his first name? Is it Philip?

Joseph. Short and to Joss. To be fair, though, that's not bad. That is not bad. For cricketers, I've named quite a few there. A few recent ones as well, yeah. Coulouse to you, man. And also not denied the fact that you've got two butlers in your Harrigate Mansion.

And two chefs. And two chefs. Well-sponsing. Kitchen upstairs and downstairs. But Mike has pointed out. point Carlos on cricket is quite interesting because as a kid for him he didn't see it as exciting whereas I think a lot of kids now boys and girls do see it as exciting but I think the T20 format has made it a lot more exciting as well because like talk to Americans about

cricket and they're wondering like how can they play a one sport for five days same game and not get a winner so you're trying to explain cricket to someone you tell them oh yeah This is just day one or five. So you'll spend the next eight hours watching 20% of the game. And at the end of the full game, we may not have a winner. Then people are like, maybe don't want to get too invested. But with T20 now, the fanfare, the colours, the music, everything around the game itself. It's so interesting and everything happens a lot quicker.

So yeah, I don't, I don't disagree with the perception of the game. But I think that our perception is changing quickly into what is an exciting sport. Yeah, about five days. And to not get a winner, that's just most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. 2020 now, when we're talking about 2020, this is where I started watching cricket. Because you know, 20 overs, smash it as much as you can. Yes, it might not have the skill and the technique involved as, you know, cricket. You'd be surprised.

It's not the same challenges, but the challenges are slightly different. And everything happens a lot quicker. So in a five-day game, yes, it's a set of attrition and will. But in a T20 format, you don't have that period where it's just a lull for two hours. You've got to be on it from ball one to ball one, 20 first innings, then you've got a 15-minute break like football, boom, another 120 balls, and then it's done. So you need to be on it from ball one straight to the end of them 40 over. So it is as skillful a game, and it's a lot quicker and more intense as well.

If it was 2020, if we would have led with 2020 and then, if it advertised the 2020 a lot more, there'd be a lot more fans. Look at the 100. The 100 in the summer. What was that called? The 100s, it was called. Yeah.

But you know what I mean, Chappas though? If I say 100 and you're going to say, oh, actually, it's called X, Y, Z. So I've always got to be careful what I stay around, Chappas. So yes, the 100. I didn't know if it had something else on that name. That was exciting. So with that in mind, Micah, I am told, because Carlos, you've re-signed for Birmingham in the T20, haven't you, for the 2020 season. So I've been told, Micah, that Edgebaston would like to invite, which is where Birmingham play, Micah, just in case.

Edgbaston wants to invite you down to have a hit with Carlos. I'll go down there, 100%. You see me, you see my baseball. I did baseball. They invited me down and I hit a home run so I can hit it but don't go easy on me

Would the villa fans welcome you back to Birmingham? Would you be allowed back in the city? Just reminded me actually Can we not do it up north? So would you bowl Carlos Would you bowl at him if he's going to come down and have a head? No, I don't want injure him

So what? I can wear all the gear I can do it properly Don't take it easy on me I like a challenge All the gear, no idea. Now, we can do some range hitting on the bowling machine. And Birmingham, Edgebiston, got some nice facility.

So we can do a little bit of spin. And when it comes to spin, I can't tell you much. I can't play spin at all. But the pace, we handle the pace. We try to hit it as far as we possibly could. We can have a little bit of a laugh. If you were bowling at Michael, like full pelt, what pace would you get up to?

So I've bowled a ball close to 90 miles an hour before. I don't think I've ever touched the 90-mile barry. but that was one ball out of the how much of a thousand I've bowled already. My average pace or what I would say, my normal pace would be like 81, 82 miles an hour. And that'll be from hand to pitch. Wow. But on the bowling machine, we won't face it that fast because the bowling machine is a lot quicker than it says on the gun. So if we put it at 80, it would actually feel like 85, 87.

So most cricketers use the bowling machine at 70, 72. they're at 60. I'm up for that. Are you coming chappers as well? Yeah, I'll umpire. That's fine. They normally stutter? He's like, I, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I won't, I'm not going to face Carlos at 80 miles an hour, I can tell you that for nothing. Did you do, you used to do cricket scoring as a, as a kid, Chappers? Yes, as a kid, yeah, I used to do that. I used to be a cricket reporter and commentator, Micah as, as well, back in the, back in the day. So, yeah, it's, it's my favourite sport.

It is my favourite sport. You don't like cricket more than football. Don't tell me this. I absolutely adore cricket. Yeah, I adore it. All formats are cricket. Genuinely. But if you were to bowl,

if you were to bowl at 85 miles an hour, Carlos, to give him some idea, what percentage of a second, what tenth of a second would he have to be able to react? You see, the thing is reacting before the ball hits you, and then he's reacting to actually play a shot, fractions of a second. From the time the ball releases from the hand,

you then go make a decision and then play a shot. So you try to make a decision as early as possible and execute it as late as possible. Michael, when you tell me about headers from corners, I can try to give you some technical insight about batting. Football is easy though. Football is easy. Everyone can play football.

Football is my favourite sport. Is it really? Who's your team? As I was saying, football is my favourite sport. Who's your team, Carlos? The Red Devils, Manchester United. There's been a decade of pain, Micah. Go easy on me.

Who's your favourite player, Carlos, from Man United? Come on, give me, give me something. CR 7, Christiano, Ronald. All right, okay, apart from my album. But that, yeah, that's too easy. The ones that I like, I like Pogba. So I would see myself as a Pogba on the field. Pick a pass, collect the ball in any area,

control the midfield, add a little bit of flair. He's quicker than I am, though. He's, like, real slow. I like Harry McGuress, you know. You know, Pogma's not played well for about four years, you know that, don't you? I don't agree, I don't agree. I don't agree. Pogba plays well.

Every team has his scapegoat. It was Lukacu before he left. He went into, ball, yeah, big move back to Chelsea. There's no Pogba and Marshal. When they leave, it can be somebody else. Unfortunately, for me and for my United fans, it is not fried yet. Fuck. I think it's quite interesting.

that as somebody who has played sports at the elite level, you were quite critical of both Maguire and Fred there, Carlos. Because quite a lot of people, you know, when they play at an elite level, sometimes a very understanding about players in other sports. But you actually speak like a fan in pain. Yeah, that's the problem. That's the problem with football.

I love football. So that's why he started to understand when I do crap on the field in cricket and why people slate me. But no, but I believe in all walks of life, just being honest, like, McGuire is not the fastest, so just being honest, like, I always say I can't play a spin. And if I were to say, oh, I'm the best player's spin, the stats are proved not. So I would never be disrespectful to another player's craft because as a professional sports, my understanding may work as hard as you want at something or on something. And when you go out on the part, it looks as though you haven't been working a day in your life.

So are you comfortable with criticism? now. Yeah, once it's respectful, and I have conversations. I had somebody tell me, I'm no good. And I was like, well, I don't have disrespectful. If you tell me I can't play a spin well, then I could say, okay, cool, why do you think that? And you know, a lot of times there's when the conversation ends, because not a lot of people know the solution to the problem, they just dare to criticize. So if you can come to me and say, look, Carlos, I don't like how you play spin. Um, it's a cool, fair enough. I don't like it either. What do you suggest? And then they say, well, that, you know, this has worked for someone, that's work for someone. This is something that I saw. I'll have a conversation

with you. Once you be respectful, you criticise me, fine. Like, it's not perfect. I admit that. I understand that. But when you be disrespectful, it's then very close off. Like a good friend, zero to a hundred real quick, so I prefer to stay at zero. Do you think you reached your full potential, Carlos? Yes, I know. Because I still feel as though I had a little bit more to give. And they're not retired yet, so that's my intention to still give it. But then, you You know, in this pursuit of perfection that the world forces you to have now, it makes you look at all the things that you've done poorly and, you know, judge it, but then it never celebrates the good things that you've done.

So I get to a space now where, as much as I want to do more, are learning to accept the good that I've done and appreciate how far I've come. Let's expand a little bit more on that then. But to put all of this in context, and because the commentary is so great, and because you were phenomenal, Carlos. Let's just play. West Indies needing 19 to win in the last over against England of the men's World T20 in 2016.

Stokes is on his way again. Virtually all the field is inside the circle now. Stokes comes in, bowls to breath, and it hits in for six. Carlos Brathwit! Carlos Brathwit! Remember the name. History for the West Indies.

With four successive sixes in the last over. I've never seen that before. Carlos Brathlet is an instant hero. Four successive sixes. Even though that was against England, it gives me goosebumps, Carlos. Still listening to that commentary even now, five years on. Four consecutive sixes in the first four balls of the last over

to give West Indies the win. So when we talk about, Micah asked you, when we talk about potential, it's what you're measuring it against. Are you measuring it against the lad that was playing in Barbados who built his career from there? Or are you measuring it against the man that did that? Because from then on, West Indies fans probably expected you to do that every time you went out to bat. And yeah, and that is why that's why talk about appreciating how far you've come. Because even if I take that out of the equation, the average 45 in test cricket. I played three tests.

two in Australia, one at home against India, and I scored three-fifties, a 50 in every game that I played. Average 45 with the bat, I've performed in the other cricket, but since then, I haven't done exactly that to reach back to those heights. So in a lot of persons' mind, oh, that's the only thing you've ever done. And for me, like, that was tough to live with for a while because I was like, I don't want that to be my defining moment at such a young age. But now, actually, like, and for the last two years or so, like, I'm happy with that. being my defining moment though because a lot of people that tell you oh that's all you've ever done

if you ask them what have they done but Carlos why do you think you couldn't all right having six even I'm not a massive cricket fan but I know that was incredible but why would you not be able to repeat that level of form so on one hand I bought into the hype as well

I wanted to finish every game that I was in the situation to finish with a six as opposed to just finishing the game winning it potentially coming not out and if I do that three or four times all of a sudden your average in that format goes to X, Y or Z, let's say 25, 30, as opposed to 15, 16 when you do get out

and then I was a victim of that performance as well because I was playing test cricket, test cricket is a five-day, boring one and I was doing well but it's easier when you're playing test cricket and practicing for test cricket to then go and play the shorter formats because you're doing the basics right. All of a sudden, boom, your T20 captain, boom, you drop from test cricket and you got a fleeting roll in the 50 over.

So it's like, okay, like, I appreciate the accolades. I appreciate the responsibility. But my batting suffered because I was now only playing T20. So I'm going into bat with three overs left, two overs left. And over a period of time, you're batting deteriorate to the point where, you know, a swiper, you're not a batsman.

So it's only in the last. Last year and a half to two years that because I lost my playing the team, you're now able to go and rejig your game in a sense. Come to England last year when I played some second 11 cricket, I want to play as a batsman. And you almost have to relearn to bat. So in the aftermath of the World Cup and the four-sixes, as much as it did a lot for me and my reputation, it also hampered the way that I was seen as a batsman. and it turned me into quote-unquote swiper and it lost their backsmanship ability.

But life changed for you, I'm guessing, after that. And I'm guessing, Micah, and I do have the commentary, but out of respect for Carlos, I won't play Manchester City winning the Premier League title in 2012. Aguero! Yeah, we don't. Staggering. The similarities are, Micah, I'm guessing.

At the end of that, nothing's ever going to be winning that title that year in the manner that you did. So nothing is going to get better than that and also life changes for you. Yeah, I think mine was a little bit different to Carlos in the fact that that moment the Premier League was amazing

and we worked so hard but I actually didn't get as much credit as I should when we won the league. My credit came at the start when I was 17-18 playing for England and Carlos makes a good point. You saw, I won't say you believe the hype but you don't know if it's confidence or a little bit of arrogance to say that oh well i'm at this level now i don't need to

keep improving and i just took my eye off the off the ball because things started being too easy i was a best player at man city we talked about when i was young and then i was a best player going to man city wasn't by the time i was 18 19 i was the only one representing england and joie barton got a um a cap as well so in my head i'd already made it again and then Before you know it, there's investments coming and then they're bringing in proper world-class players. And then it was only in that Premier League season where I'd just like, well, if I didn't start up in my game here, I'm going to, you know, they're going to sell me. So then when we won the Premier League, it was a massive relief because I'd had so many highs and lows. And that's why I asked Carlos' question, because I can sympathise with, like, having a moment.

And when we say the bursting on the scene, I know we have laugh and joke about that, but like, playing for English, England at 18 and only making your debut the year before 17, that is actually going on to the team really quick and you don't know how to handle it. People can't, you know, there's no sort of manual to say, well, this is how you deal with this, because you don't, you just sort of ride in the wave and everyone expecting it to be, or by 21, if you've made a debut at 18 for England, you should be the best fullback in the world at 21. And when that wasn't happening, I just was, oh, he's not good enough. And he's, oh, you know, he's took his eye off the ball, or he's this. And I did at certain times, but I think the problem with the media, especially

back then, people just used to love to put the knife in. It's almost like you get a chance. And if you're not like producing them same levels, then they're almost happy then, oh, here's another one. We've beasted it. We've built him up and now we can, we can put him down. but to get back and work back to win the Premier League that was just, yeah, one of the greatest moments in my life. When you say you didn't get the credit, is that within the club or is that externally? And were you jealous of those that got more credit?

Yeah, of course you were jealous. You know chappas, we work every week together. I think what you know about me, I'm real. If everyone says one thing, I will say what I believe. and I was jealous because in that season I started more games than Zabaleta and the last game

the most important game against QPR who scores Zaboleta scores so if you ever mention Man City and whatnot everyone oh yeah Zaboletta and company and I'm like hold on I've gone from

the academy worked as hard as I possibly can I was playing for England had a few turbulent seasons managed to work my way back into it got injured towards the end of that season and then I'm not getting the credit I deserve and it's only the real city fans

you know the core ones who are just who really know I get credit off them but as the whole I don't think I got that the credit I was due for that season because that was unbelievable season amazing season I had in that year By the way Carlos what Micah doesn't know

is that originally this was meant to be when Pablo met Carlos but he wasn't available but you Carlos you Carlos might have got it the other way actually from maybe West Indies teammates who felt they didn't get the credit for winning that World T20 because all the attention was on you

I think when you really started to see the jealousy or the I wouldn't say hate hate is a strong word I think when they got the captaincy there was a lot of persons who felt that other person should have gotten the captaincy, more experienced persons.

So in the space of four months, it flipped from World Cup winner, hero, to what you're all giving him the captaincy, who's he ever captained? Well, I've captain Barbados, Barbados on the 19. I've captained the academy. You know, like there was a list of people that had captain, teams and organizations that had captained

in the lead up to that. But the only thing that they concentrated on was, He's only being given captaincy because of the four-sixes. And I'd be honest, that captaincy reign, I look back on it with a lot of fondness because I think I've grown so much because of it because I think everyone knows the board and the players in the rest of these isn't the most harmonious relationship

or it hasn't been for a long time. And I remember my tenure, it was almost, it was between a rock and a hard place. So on one hand, the players were like, oh, yeah, they only give him the captaincy because he's a yes man. When really and truly, people that know me know that I far from that. So on one hand, they're not exactly trusting me

because they think I only being given it to be a puppet for the board. And on the other hand, I fighting with certain sections of the selection committees and certain admin day in, day out. For the same people that fighting against me think they're fighting against them. So I was being pulled in both directions to the point where my game,

really suffered like at some points in time it felt as though when they had to leave a franchise tournament and meet up with the international team like you already get that's our brain sap because you just know that this can be a real slog and this World Cup performance was was not one that we be proud of but from my tenure I was saying let's get a group of players together a group of names there will be franchise tournaments there will be the CPL. Let's ensure that in preparation for that next World Cup, obviously I thought I'd be there and I was hoping to be captain as well. Let's get a group of players. Let's find a way that we want to play. So we know that if we want to have two attacking openers, this is the pool of

openers. If you want to get into that pool, you got to prove either through franchise cricket or through CPL that you can play the way that we want to play. Nothing ever happened. We keep going from one tour to the other tour to the other tour. And sometimes you find a man batting that four on one trip, and the next trip he opening, then behind that three. So as a team, we could never find a real style of play. And then me fighting egos and characters, and then me fighting with the board, and then me fighting trying to get this put in place, it's like, but I ain't got the time for Carlos, though. And as a result of that, my cricket suffered, so there's a lot of parallels in professional sport

about so much happening off the field and people only seeing what you put out on the field. understanding and appreciating where you're going through off of it. Did you, I mean, you've been captain as well, Michael, but it's very different in football, isn't it? Yeah, I've not really been proper captain. I've been vice captain and Richard Dunn. He was out for a couple of months, and I stepped in. I was young.

I think I was youngest ever. Did you have the captain at Villa? Yes, but that was, again, that was joint. So basically, it was two captains. It was me and Gabby Agboglajor. He was the official captain. But this is what I mean. What a chance do we have staying up.

We've got two captains. He got Gambien Bongleror who doesn't say boo to a goose as captain. And I'm the on-field captain, so I'm motivating the players, which, you know, it was all right for a certain period of time. But, you know, when he captained and you get relegated, it's not great, is it? Did you do a huddle as a captain before you started a game? I told you this story, though, didn't I? You know, up at Sunderland.

Have you? Yeah, so basically, it's like we've been horrendous. We've been the worst we've ever been, a villa, horrible. And obviously, I'm still captain. So we go out there, don't we? We go out there, and before we're in a huddle. And I'm like, right, last year, it's, you know, it's behind us. This is a fresh season.

I'm the captain. I'm going to lead us by example. I'll be there for you. Bladdy, blah, blah, blah, blah. We go out to Sunderland, who obviously are in a relegation battle. What happens in the game? Scoring on goal.

I was just like, what chance have I got? How on God's earth? Are they supposed to, you know, motivate themselves? If I can't even motivate them, I'm supposed to be the captain and it was that moment there. I realized that I've got to hang out my boots.

I've got to hang at my boots soon because I'm not motivating anybody. I'm the problem. And honestly, and I've never said that before. But my knees were, I've had operations on my knees. And knees and my injuries played a massive factor of why my career ended and all that sort of stuff. But in the end, I just, I couldn't move.

And I was actually the problem at Villa. And I'd be honest about it, like he said. I don't mind saying that. I don't mind saying that now. I started off brilliant and my knees were fine. So, you know, my knees started playing up. Yeah, it was tough to take, man. It really was.

Both of you, is there room for, you make a mistake like that, does anybody say anything sarcastic to you or laugh at you in the heat of the moment? Honestly. Because I've always wondered that because, I mean, Carlos, let me give you an insight. Whenever we do shows together, people highlight my sort of pub sporting career

of amateur football, amateur cricket, not really to a very high level. But as soon as somebody, you know, drops one in cricket or is out for a duck or scores a known goal, sarcasm is rife throughout the team. And I've always wondered watching professional sport whether there is still that level of sarcasm when it is in inverted commas so serious.

Of course. If you drop a catch on the field, right? And then the next ball goes to the keeper, you pass it down to point, and the person that cover in the chain to get the ball back, and the person love it to him and he catches it. You get back in the dressing room, throw me a bottle of water and he catches it.

Also, you can catch that no, no. You can catch that now. Chappers, it all depends on the context, doesn't it, if you think about it? Because don't forget, we was in a relegation. People were losing their jobs. So, like, although the lads were bantering, you know, on the book, he gave you all these massive speech, giving it the bigger, and you're the problem. And then we're having a laughing joke or whatever,

but it hurts deep inside, you know what I mean? You feel that if you're on top and you miss a penalty or you miss something, you're going to win a league. He doesn't mind, does it? You can have a bit of banter with that. You talk about throwing a bottle of water, Carlos. That once happened on Match of the Day 2, where I don't know if you know Carlos Shee Given,

who used to be Manchester City goalkeeper or Newcastle goalkeeper, and his first punditry time on Match of the Day 2, and he asked me to get a bottle of water out of the fridge, and I threw it to him just on the set in the match of the day office, and he dropped it. I mention that to him every time I see him. Let's, we don't have long left on this.

Just onto your careers, both of you as pundits. Carlos, you go first. Why? And given everything that we've talked about, the greater understanding you obviously have, both of you of professional sports people and what they might be going through, does it give you a better understanding?

And do you think twice before criticising someone in your sport? Yeah. It's all about respect for me. Ian Bishop is the best at it, not only because he said remember the name, but he's one commentator that I look up to. Because for him, he can say that you've had a bad passage of play, a bold, a bad over, a bad spell, played a bad shot,

without calling you a bad player. And some people even go as far as I call you a bad person. And I think you can separate the person from the player, and I think you can say that this person has not bowled well or batted well, but you know what they're capable of and you know you can add a little bit of context and what also love about Ian Bishop is that he would come before the next day's player

at practice and you know he would give you some insight as to what he thought you could have done ask some questions so for me I had always said that if I ever go into commentating or punditry any sort of media position that is the type of personality that I want to be yes I'm upstairs and yes I may see things and they got to call a spade a spade

but I also want to share a bit of context as to why that decision could have been made whether it's the right one or the wrong one and I want to be able to learn from the players when I hang up my boots why did you do that has the game evolved to the point where what I am thinking is actually outdated or actually what you are thinking is wrong and it's about a conversation and whatnot so for me it's all about exhibiting and you know calling why see but exhibiting a level of respect and adding some content to what players go through and why players do what they do. I can totally agree with that, but I think with me, we're punditry.

And I don't want to say, me and chappas have this running joke that I see things five years ago or that, you know, like a player or a manager or something good they do. But when I came into punditry, I think everything was a little bit too serious. So when I come, I thought, you know what, if I go on and I'm on with, I don't know, Roy Keene, Gary Neville, Carriger, Alan Shearer, or. Ian Wright. All the big hitters. They're the big hitters of the punditry game. Name all the sky ones first, why don't you? But yeah, go ahead.

You can see you're his loyalty there. Make sure you cut that. That's staying. And I just like, if I go and give the same opinion of them big hitters, and we're talking about legends of the game, we're not just talking about punitry, then I'm just

going to be the same. There's going to be no longevity within the game for me. So I'm thinking if I want to come and, I'm not saying change the game, but try stay relevant, I've got to do something different. And a lot of the, I would say the pundits now, they do get a little bit personal. I'm not going to lie, they do get personal. But I always try to explain why they might be thinking that and just do things with a smile on my face. That's the best thing. I could do because if me and Roy Keene are arguing, let's say, like a lot of people are just going to agree with Roy Keene subconsciously because he was a great player.

Do you know what I mean? So I have to give something a different opinion or think outside of the box. Otherwise, you'll just be another one of, you know, match of the day is one of the best programs on there. And like now we do a podcast with Gary and Allen. And I try to ask them questions to make them come out of them. himself because a lot of people just say, or Gary and Alan, they've been really straight, they've got no person. I'm like, what are you on about? They've got some of the funniest guys

at BBC. And I just tried to bring that out of them. I try to give the feel good factor. So even if I have to criticize someone, they're not going to take it personally because I'm not going really strong with an opinion. I'm just giving it from, well, if I was in that position, this is what I would have done. Is it harder? Mike has only just stopped playing. obviously, Carlos, you're still playing. Is it harder if you have to criticize a friend, Carla? Yeah, a lot harder. And I remember I started with the best in these team.

And we were very good in the first test. And I was like, yeah, this job was easy. Because you're calling what you're seeing. You're saying it. And then we were shocking for the other two tests. I talked to some men on WhatsApp, you know. And they let them know, because they're trying to be transparent. So, like, you know, how they pitch playing.

They want to use it on air. and then they're going to play a ridiculous shot I can't get anything for the rest of the time but I mean they had a situation where my good friend Shamar Brooks he was playing a terrible shot go out on 30 or 40 on and I had a chat with him

and I was just like, I had to roast you on air like I had to roast you on air man you can't do them things but the people that I know well and that know me well, know that I'll call a spade and they know that I'll try to be respectful. But I think they've been once or twice where I think I would have probably gone a bit too hard. And this probably is sustainable, but I would have messaged the person and say, look, yeah, I rip into you today. I didn't like how you get out or wherever.

I keep it kosher, it was respectful or wherever, but I let you have it. Because sometimes these quotes come out on social media and people read them and think, but how you could be talking to me 10 minutes ago and you ripping into it? me on air. I had a situation as Skipper where do a whole interview about five minutes and it ended with me saying and be analyzing the first half of the game. I was just like, you know, if he first 19 overs, we did exactly what we wanted. It went a little awry in the 20th over because it didn't hit the straps the way that he wanted to. But you know what? He has the most wickets for the year as a pacing T20 to national cricket and we stand by him. It was just a bad over,

but it has forced us to chase a bit more than we would want. Literally, the only thing that came out, was I blame Kaira's Rick for the thing. So I had to message him and I was like, boss, I don't know if you've seen this, but this is not the full context. And it's only because I was stood up for him in the past that he knows it's no bad blood or anything. But imagine if there's someone that I didn't know well

or didn't have a good rapport with. So it's going to be difficult, I think, moving forward. I don't know if it's sustainable, but that's what I've been trying to do. It seems a very good way to do it. Micah, do you have problems, criticising friends who are still playing. You're a bad, bad, man, chap.

Carlos, I have to tell you. Let me hear this. Oh, God, honestly. So Danny Rose, he's been on Five Live, is fantastic, but Danny Rose and Micah are good friends. The last two times, I've done a match of the day, or a match of the day, too, with Micah. Danny Rose has been playing for Watford both times.

The first time was when Liverpool won six. Was it six-nill? of Hartford. Yeah, that's Salah one. Danny Rose was trying to mark Salar. He didn't have the greatest, didn't have the greatest afternoon, to be honest with you.

And then on Sunday, he gave away a penalty committing a move that the Undertaker would have been proud of in... O'Connor McGregor. O'Connor McGregor.

Micah, Micah, the panic, the panic in the room on Sunday that he was going to have to criticize his friend again. Oh, dear. That is difficult. How are you under that?

No, to be honest, I can't even say this because it's wrong, but basically, you can't always, I'm not saying cheat analysis, because we call a spay to spay, don't we? That's why we're pundits. But if you always go back a second or two on the analysis and see where the, the root of the problem, do you know what I mean? You can always sort of, you can present it in the way you want to. presented, let's say. Although on the one on Sunday, you could have gone back for ages in the analysis

and still not found a reason for him nearly decapitated Lacazette. Right, right, we're going to end with a couple of challenges. Now, one of the things that comes with punditries that you get, obviously, lots of different opportunities, because TMS is not only on five-life sports extra, but also on Radio for Longwave, it means that they sometimes have to break to do the shipping forecast, and Carlos has read

the shipping forecast before, so here's a little clip of him doing that. Viking Law Shannon 996 expected 40s 987 by midnight to night, southerly 4 or 5, backing south-easterly 5 to 7,

perhaps Gale 8 later. Slight or moderate, becoming moderate or rough, occasionally very rough later. The first question is, Carlos, did you have any idea what you were reading out? Or was it just a list of words?

Hold on, hold on, hold on, old and old, what was happening there? What was going on? At first, every time I'm on air hearing this radio four long wave thing, so I knew for this, but I still don't want to be like a complete idiot. Like, what am I missing here?

So she was like, oh yeah, there's something called a shipping forecast and all the people that they see listen to it to kind of get idea of how the seas are going, the swells, etc. So they're like, cool. Can I hear it? And then, like, people were tweeting, you know, I would love to hear Carlos. Carlos's voice is nice and mellow and I was like, oh my God. But yeah, I read it and then Alison Mitchell, like, give me a little course on it. So she was like, this is the area and then you read something else and then it goes on to tell you something else. Gail 8 is like the speed of the wind and then

So I had a proper crash course before I did it By don't know anything, no way, I can't tell you nothing I can remember biking I can remember like two or three of these areas But nah that was that was surreal And Mike I was trending in the UK I still got that screenshot saved I was trending number nine in the UK

So sometimes we thought we'd follow this on Sometimes we occasionally, you know, Charlotte can't read the classified football results on the Saturday, and we've had to use other people. So just in case we don't get Charlotte one week, I thought I'd audition you both for the classified football results. Carlos, you should have them in front of you. So if you just do the first five... Can I hear a Charlotte saying it? No. I don't know you give it an option.

But Carlos, it's reading out the football results. It's not as complicated as the shipping forecast. Can I do from Crystal Palace down? Yes, if you want me too, there's a certain result that's second in line down. Yeah, very good. Yeah, you do. I tell you what, you start from Brighton down and then I'll come back to Micah. You do Brighton down, Carlos. Brighton Hove Albion 1, Newcastle United 1, Arsenal 1, Watford 0.

Everton 0, Tottenham Hotspur 0, Leeds United 1, Leic, United 1, Leicester City 1, West Ham 3, Liverpool, Two. Good pace, nice and quick, like that. Now, I don't know if you're aware, Carlos, but Micah has recently done an advert for a car app thing, car advert. And in that, he seemed to think he was in boys to men as he tried to do the voiceover. So this will be really interesting as Micah does the classified football results from down to Crystal Palace, Micah. Manchester United, Nell, Manchester City, two.

Brentford one, Norwich City, two. Chelsea one, Burnley, one. Crystal Palace, too, Wolverham and Wonders, nil. That was remarkably sultry, I don't know. Right, well, who knows? Actually, the classified football results are one of the few things left in UK broadcasting that you haven't done. You might, at some point, Micah, get the call to do that.

Right. Well done, both of you. Thank you. Quick fire this or that to finish with to see how much you have in common, okay? Cardio or weights? Wits. Wights. Leg day or chest day?

Chest day. Leg day. Dog or cat? Dog. Dress suit or track suit? Dress suit. Dreads or Afro? Dreads.

By the way, Carlos, Micah's barber's called Eugene. If you ever need a trim, I can saw you out there. Night in or night out? Night in, night out. Nighting, night in. Yeah, Carlos, yeah. That's Micah still trying to pretend he's young. Flying fish or saltfish?

Flaying fish. Salt fish. Yeah, that's it. Rinaldo or Messi? Ronaldo. Messi. Radio or TV? Oh, that is tough.

for you know. I'll say TV. Well, you won't be asked to hear to come again. Blimey, Carlos. I thought you might at least go radio for anyhow. I'm going both.

You know what? You know what? Can we do this? Can we start this again? But we have to do it in a Caribbean accent. How about that? Call or text? Text.

Text. Text. All right. Don't call me. I don't call me. I don't want to speak to. White rum or dark rum? Dark rum, you know?

It's Caribbean, man. Carlos, I am sorry. Right. Hit a six or burst on the scene? Burst on the scene? Carlos can't talk anymore Final one Final one

Right Do properly Red or blue Blue What did you say Cut Did you say some blue Oh my

Carlos Carlos you can't Give him the option Red or blue And who you support You can't go blue You can't No as a colour

As a colour We got We got a third kit We have to leave it there We have to leave it there One minute, can I read the video printing Caribbean again? One minute, let me, let me, let's finish. Southampton one, Villa Nile.

What is that? But you can't really say Aston Ville in a Caribbean. Carlos, say Aston Ville in a Caribbean accent. Come on. You may talk normally. Yes, normally. Ashton. Exactly, exactly.

Aston Villa. I can't believe at the end of that, you went to Carlos. Can you do it in a Caribbean accent? Goes back right to the very star. Carlos, top man. Thank you very much for doing that. Michael looks like he needs to lie down. Hopefully, in between the best laughs in the business,

you will have heard some talking over the last hour. Good to have you both on. See you both soon. Well done. Match of the day. Top 10 podcast. Gary Linneker here to bring you a little. message. Match of the day,

Top 10 podcast is back once again exclusively on BBC Sounds. It's too late for me now, man. Yeah, it's too late at this. I thought I was going to get some more dates on a match of the day then. Yes, myself, Alan and the busiest man in football punditry, Micah Richards, return for

series five. He was never going to Man City. Maniated could never, ever have allowed Cristiano Ronaldo to have gone to Manchester City. The Match of the Day Top 10 podcast. Only of on BBC Sounds.