Test Match Special - Who makes your Ashes XI?

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

Jonathan Agnew is alongside former England captains Michael Vaughan and Sir Alastair Cook, and Test Match Special statistician Andy Zaltzman to discuss who plays for England in the first Ashes Test down under in Perth. Does the top seven pick itself, which bowlers are picked, and which players currently not in England squad could make a late charge for selection?

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you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and Cs apply. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Jonathan Agnew. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast. Where England's test summer is over, but all focus for England's red ball side now switches to Australia.

We'll be in Perth on the 21st November for full commentary of the first test of the Ashes Down Under. But what side will head coach Brendan McCullum and Captain Ben Stokes pick for the opening test match? Well, I'm alongside the former England captains, Michael Vaughn and Sir Alistair Cook, and the Test Match Special Statistician Andy Zoltzman to find out exactly that.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. First of all, we need to remind of everyone, of course, it's not the Wacker, is it? And I've seen one-day cricket at the new Opters, so I haven't seen Test Cricket Live. I saw the India Test Match on the telly. What's it like? I've done every test that's been there,

and it's just a similar wicket to the wacker. It is. It's fast to bounce. It's fast and bouncy. I saw if I'd get 100 there, and one of the first test matches, it went all over the place. It was an incredible innings,

but yeah, there's pace, there's carry. Is it a drop-in? Yeah, it is a drop-in, yeah, because I play AFL there. Bumra Bowl, one of the great spells last year to blow Australia away, and again in the second in, it was remarkable bowling.

So I didn't see much spin, and I haven't seen a great deal of spin in the last couple of times at the Perth Stadium, so I guess you're going to start talking about combinations and teams for that first test. from what I see and have seen there if you get down to facing the spinner

you're quite happy you know you've got to do the damage with your quick bowlers four seamers yeah four seamers and a holding type spinner would you put me have that or would you're going to have yeah you could have a holding type spinner at a Bethel or a Joe route but

you know I think if you're looking at what I've seen in Perth and Ben Stokes's injuries I wouldn't be against playing five seamers with Ben being the fifth obviously he's going to bowl more than a fifth seamer would bowl But, you know, pack your batting. We've got, you know, the likes of Gus Atkinson, Briding Carcers,

these kind of bowlers who batts a bit. You know, Geoff Rarcher, clearly he plays. Mark Wood, I guess he'll come into the equation if he's fit. Josh Tong, the Hoover, he just gets wickets, night in wickets in this series. So you'd think they'd have a great chance, particularly in Perth of playing on that bouncy pitch. Of all the pitches, I think pace is going to be really important there. You really do have to have a bit of oomph about you.

If you bowl at 88 to 1 miles an hour at the Perth, stadium, you're going to get met. If you bowl it around 86, 87, you've got a great chance of succeeding. Yeah. I mean, I think if everyone's fit, it almost picks itself, doesn't it, the first, it might be one or two. Well, who are you going with it? Well, I'm going, Crawley Duckett, Pope, Brook, Stokes, Smith, Bethel, Cass, Archerwood, I've got written down

there, which isn't going to be far off, is it? I mean, you could, whether Wood's fit or not, I can have a... If we've got everyone for fit, I'm picking wood and Archer together for that one game and I'm not playing a spinner so Joe Root's going to be my my spinner for just just this one impact game I don't like the effect of ever going without especially spinner but from what Michael has said about the Perth wicket and but and as an statement of intent for this England side I'm picking my fastest bowlers and I'm saying we're here for an absolute scrap and we're going to make it as uncomfortable account

of that Australia top order and lower order Ben Stokes we've seen what how important is this side. I'm going for those four seamers. You're going would archer cast Stokes? Would Archer Cass and Atkinson? Oh right. Stokes is my Stokes is up the sleeve. Stokes is so he's about's at six he bowls but he doesn't

have to do what he did himself at Lords so if there's a chance of managing him through the five matches a little bit you know trying to manage Ben Stokes at best times is almost impossible trying to manage him in an Ashes winning moment but if you have in an Ash's winning game, moment of a test match and Ash's first one. But he will

bowl less, so there's more chance of him being still there in the latter on the series. So, Mark, are you going to do similar sort of a thing? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I need to see how Mark Wood is over the course of the next couple of months just to make sure that he plays a bit of cricket and obviously gets to Australia or will he go to New Zealand with the one-day squad.

Just to play some games and get some bowling into his legs and then you can make a decision nearer the time in Perth. I'm not against the likes of Ray and Armour being in the squad. I mean, the lucky thing for England is that the lion squad's going to be there. So the likes of Ray and Ahmed, you know, Olly Stones, these kind of peripheral players for England can be on that squad. And, you know, if you do need a spinner, you know, Jacob Bethel's playing this week, but his left-arm spin just looks okay.

It's a working progress. He's batting now, he's under a bit of pressure. So this is a good opportunity for Jacob to get a 20-knought out and see England home. Let's see how he plays it after tea. But I wouldn't be against Ray and Ahmed being in that squad. If you do need someone that can bother a little bit of difference, got Joe Rue who can hold an end with finger spin. If you did need someone that just offers you a little bit of something,

a leg spin, but also a very good batter. You know, Ray and Ava could be that way. He's in my squad, anyway. I mean, he's had a terrific summary. Fantastic. Five hundred. He got 30 in wickets in a match. He's a cheeky champion.

He likes playing the game. And I don't think he's going to be overawed by the situation. So I think they've got so many options. They've got so many good cricketers waiting around for their opportunity. And, you know, I think this squad, They have produced, you know, over the course of five matches, it's almost like, I don't think you can ever get better preparation to play an Ashes series away from. I'm not saying India is preparation.

It's an incredible series in itself, but to think of the four wickets that they played on at the start, flat decks. And they found a way to go to one. Obviously, the last Ashes series here was two all. And, you know, you can't have better preparation. And they'll arrive in Perth with a top seven that's, you know, we're not going to debate. You can always talk about Zach Crawley and Ollie Pop, terms of their positions but it's rock solid in terms of the selection there's no debate yeah and that was the last time actually alistair and you were there and won in 10 and 11 it was a a rock solid top seven you know other times you've gone to australia and there's been lots of debate of who plays where and who should be in and who should be out well this is a consistent group and then a rotation of the quicks and it's just making sure you get the right right formation for perth and then obviously the day night game in brisbane and you might need different skill sets for the pink ball as you do for the first game in Perth and then the Adelaide game, a day game, probably a flat wicket.

You might need, again, different skill sets. But I think England will have enough in terms of the different angle changes, different paces, different heights, different variables with the spin options. They've got plenty to work with, which is a great sign for the team in Australia. Yeah. What is Ollie Stone's situation at the moment? Andy, have a look, because he's one that could go on the list as another reserve. But you're right.

I mean, picking squads these days isn't quite the same. is it? Because you have got a second squad there as well. So rather than picking a squad of 16, you're actually picking a squad of 30. Yeah, yeah. And that's great. You know, when you've got the, you know, I guess the finances to do so. Yeah.

There's a board. There's not many countries, I guess, India, Australia, England are three teams that can, again, mirror the squads that are in the main squad with a younger lion squad. It's fantastic for the England team to be able to do that. They're going to play the Lions. I know you're against that, I guess.

But that's what they're going to do. They're going to have an England versus a Lions game for that three-day preparation. Again, time will take. tell whether that's right. You know, they do things differently this England side. That's why I admire them

because they go completely against the grain. You know, we'll know on around September, no, September, January the 8th, whether what they've done is right or wrong. Yeah, we'll judge them on that. But so far this summer, it's been a roller coaster. It's Ebden Float with many kind of situations in the game, but also with a lot of the management of the team,

and they've got it right this summer so far. Olly Stone's played a little bit of T20 this summer. I hadn't played between January and July, plays some T-20s in the UAE in January but did play a two-inning second 11 game just a couple of weeks ago

for Nottinghamshire so is he coming back? I suggest he might be coming back then, does it? Yeah, yeah, so I think it'll be, it's great, isn't it? He'll go with the Lions he'll be there in Australia and they'll be, you know, the likes of Eddie Jaxe who they like a lot of and, you know, they'll take pace. That's what England want. They've targeted

that for Australia need pace. so they'll have a barrage, there'll be a cartel of quick bowlers in Australia there was a thought I don't know if this right or wrong if this series hadn't gone very well from England's perspective then actually all the best laid ashes plans could have been a bit of a mess now

but actually it's not is it I mean we're sitting down with the same well 12 or 13 players that we'd have said would probably be the case when we sat down in May yeah and what this series I think has done for this England side is when it's got really tough they've found ways against top-class teams to win the big moment

and they're going to have to do that in Australia. Yeah, this England team, Agos, they're so good now at winning the moment. You know, they know how to win that pressurised moment and they'll think back to the last dashy series when they went 2-0 down, but even the two defeats at Edgebaston and Lords, they should have really won those games.

So throughout that five-match series, I know it's different conditions and, you know, we're here in the UK and we've had many times in the past where we've competed here and then gone to Australia and I guess collapsed in a heat. But I think this England side

have looked Australia in the eye and they've seen Pat Cummings and they've seen him at Old Trafford where he didn't look the most controlled captain because the field was spread and the ball was flying to all parts. You know, they've got players that have attacked the likes of Scotty Bowler

and Josh Hazard, Pat Cummins himself and they've got players that have had success against this Australian side. So I don't know of a better prepared team really. I mean, I'll go back to that 2010-11. That was the most people. prepared team and they went and play what do you play four four day three four day games you won you beat the Aussie A team and that was great preparation for those time but in terms of the series before

this is the perfect prep the perfect series for an England side that's just on that they're on that curve of getting better and getting better with maturity you know sensible play at times you know I go to Brisbane and the pink ball game that's what they'll do the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live Most travellers stick to the highlights. But in Turkey, if you go off the beaten path, you'll experience a whole lot of adventure. Like the St Paul Trail, where cyclists chase the thrill, or Euler where you can kite surf to your heart's content. For exploring on your feet, hike up to Mount Nemt.

Or walk in Vitara, through ancient civilizations that might reveal the history of humanity itself. plan your detour at go-turkia.com for a gripping adventure well I was going to talk to you about that actually well two things are going to say first of all is there a bowler in your mind who you think hmm it'd be perfect actually for the pink ball at Brisbane where it'll be it'll be it'll be warm won't it'll be a sort of sultry it'll be hot during the afternoon time I guess I mean the evening time there can be quite humid often storms around and so on

is there I mean I've got Josh tongue written down as someone who I think might be quite effective in that but we see someone like Chris Wokes you know we don't know what his prognosis is could you see him bowling with a pink ball and with thunder flashes around in Brisbane I'd love to but I just think his shoulders knackard I think I think unfortunately for what about a bowl of light is there a bow around line Sam Cuck but my guess is on the back of what we saw against Zimbabwe

if Sam Cuck wasn't going to play on a green top at the Oval I can't think he's in England's plans I think he might have been moved to one side So I think they've got enough in the locker I do I think Joff Rauch is a skillful ball He'll be great with a pink ball I think Mark Wood can swing a ball So again pace with a bit of a skill

And I think Jamie Overton I'll go on the tour You know, I'm all around cricket out I mean people have criticised him this week But I've looked down I think he's had three or four catches go down He swung the ball in the first things He looks a bit rusty because he's not played any cricket

But I like what I see with him I think he's that kind of character that you need He's in the opponent's face He never stops running in Runs in Hardyballed the quickest in the second innings. So I think someone like Jamie Overton could play quite a part in the ashes if England called upon him. But they've got plenty of me.

Carr's is a good bowler when it moves around. You've got Gus Atkinson is a good bowler when it moves around. And they're all bowling above 85 miles an hour. So I think England have got plenty in the tank. Well, I think Sam Cookew will go to the lines because I think if you're going to be really prepared and just have every option covered, why wouldn't you have him there just in case?

Justing only for only up to that. And he had a good tour with them as well, didn't you? They did a really good tour of the Lions and that Cooker Bowl, which is slightly different. So I would have him in that Lion's squad up and around after Brisbane. So just in case you get there and, you know, and they would have practiced the pink ball.

And I think you can be, you can have like a wild card around, especially if you were taking 30. I wouldn't see why you wouldn't have, you wouldn't want to get there to Brisbane and think. Oh, cool. Because, if we're saying Chris Wokes isn't going, if we're saying he's injured, then,

I think you've got to have a bowler, I think. Just the option if you need an 80 mile an hour, well, if bowls wicket or wicket. Just look at the Australian bowler's averages and, well, statistics in the 2023 ashes. The thing that really stands out is their economy rates compared with the rest of their careers, particularly looking at Cummins, Hazelwood and Bowlin. Stark's always been a very attacking bowler, who's generally been quite expensive.

He went at 4.8 and over, picked up 23 wickets at 27. Cummins, 18 wickets at 37, economy rate 4.2. It's almost a run and over more than his next most expensive series. Josh Hazelwood and Cummings his career average around about 22, 23. Hazelwood, 16 wickets at 31. His career average around about 24, 25. He went at 4.5 and over, and I think he does some like 20 consecutive series going for under 3 and over at that point.

Scott Boland, just two wickets in his two tests for 231, went at 4.9 and over and he's never gone for more than 2.8 and over in any other series he's played and averages 16.5 overall. So not only did they go for, were they very expensive, but also they were much less successful than they've been in the rest of their careers. And it's one of the facets of this, you know, the Basble Stokes-McCullum team, is that they present their opponents with very unfamiliar challenges.

and Cummins has never been attacked like that. Hazel would have never really been attacked like that. They did it very effectively in 2023, even though they didn't win the series. And it'll be really interesting to see how, to the extent to which they attacked them in Australia. But I think they will present that Australian bowling attack with a challenge that they have not faced in Australia before.

Well, that's certainly one for looking out for. Thanks, Andy. I just wonder what the message would be to Australia. I mean, some extraordinary guff came out after Manchester. from the Australian press as if they're really stoking it up there's been some anti-stuart broad stuff already kicking off

because he's been working on Channel 7 over there I mean they're getting worked up already aren't they bless them? I've heard that word used ever for a long time guff well it was guff and I mean they're getting very very worked up down it's going to be hot you know the cameras are going to follow the England players

wherever they go they'll get them on the golf course you know they'll follow them absolutely everywhere they'll be stories there'll be stories about the England players before the ashes starts in Perth. If I was Australia, I'd always make England back and I wouldn't allow them to chase.

They're such a good chasing team now. I'd be saying to this England side, you're batting first to see what you like when you say. You go back to Lords, where India obviously lost the game, but we're only chasing 193. They should have won that game. And that third innings of the game when England were batting, I looked down and thought, they don't quite

know how to play it when it's kind of parity at the halfway house. And can you just go on back normally and just get a score. So if I was Australia, obviously unless the pitch is bone dry, it's going to crack and spin, I'd be asking England to work back first. There'd be a lot of Australian ex-captains

turning the nose off if Pat Cummins says you bat first on that 30-degree days. And that will definitely be a good vindication for England knowing they've got into an Australian's head. I just got a few other names written down here. I've got Hamid written down, actually. I mean, he's got a lot of runs in... He'll go with the lines.

Yeah, but again, this is the things where it's changed, isn't it? I mean, you've got Sibley down, I've got Dan Lawrence down. I don't know if he's, you know, he would get another chance or not. He's a terrific summer. So he just take them all off with the Lions. He picked them 32. Yeah, you know, England don't necessarily look at county scores anyway. They have

their players, you know, Jacob Bethel's the perfect example, you know, on form. Ray and Armagh should be playing this week, really, for what he's done in the county game. But they like Jacob Bethel and they picked him this week, and that's what they'll do for the Ashes tour and for the lion's tour. That's what they'll

they'll be doing. They'll be picking a group of players that they think can play for I forget the averages or the numbers it's exactly what they'll be doing. It's interesting to see of that Lions because they have played this summer they've played a very young Lions team the guys not even playing in their first county team but they're looking at people

who are different. So guys with is it Baker? Sonny Baker balls quickly Eddie Jacks who has played a couple of games of Hampshire but are quicker bowlers rather than the next kind of the next best England team. But they need that practice at the England team will need a good workout it's interesting to see whether they just play the same like younger team or they pick you know people like Sibbli or Hamid as some experience as well for that lines just to help the preparation well you think that what we're going to pick what you're picking chairman you're picking 17 or 16 well I've given up now because we're going to get about 35 but in the squad squad you're going 17 uh yeah 16 I had but also make a few so 17 so you know is there don't need an extra keeper do they no so you go

11 and... Are you only taking one keeper? Well, they got Pope, haven't they? Fair enough. Yeah. Well, I think you need a keeper just in case. I don't want Ollie Pope keeping in her.

He kept... You know, Jordan Cox was going to... He was all the good. Yeah, I'm not sure about it. I still think you'd want an out and out keeper to just in case Jamie Smith went down on the morning of the match. But 17, so you think about that game, that three-day game. 11 of the player, six.

So there's only going to really be four or five from the Lions team that are playing. You'd want all your 17. to play, so there's not going to be that many of the Lions players playing that game, you wouldn't have thought. Thanks to Michael, Alistair and Andy. Make sure you're subscribed on BBC sounds so you never miss an episode and you can listen to every moment of the ashes on the BBC.

Test match special will be live from Perth for ball by ball commentary of England's Ashes opener and in Australia throughout England's tour so you won't miss a thing. There's continued coverage of the 100 across the BBC throughout August as well. Tuesdays and Saturdays, you can watch matches on eye player and full

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