Test Match Special - Will Ben Stokes captain England again?

Episode Date: June 17, 2026

Cricket correspondent Stephan Shemilt is alongside former England captains Michael Vaughan, Sir Alastair Cook, and the BBC’s chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew to discuss what the future holds for England’s Test side and Ben Stokes as the aftermath of Stokes and Atkinson’s curfew-breaking evening rumbles on.

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That's a good bad billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So after England's victory in the first test against New Zealand at Lords, the day after the Monday evening, we heard a statement from the ECB telling us that Ben Stokes, the captain and Gus Atkinson, the fast bowler, had been involved in an incident, in a nightclub in the early hours of Monday morning. the ECB confirmed that Stokes and Atkinson had broken the team's midnight curfew

and there was an investigation underway. Now, what we later learned that Stokes and Atkinson were present when a member of the England security staff was struck by a Saracens rugby player, the pair were subsequently made unavailable for this test match, the second test, pending that investigation. Rob Keating, the director of cricket, Brendan McCollum, the head coach. They've both spoken since. neither of them have said that they expect or that they want Ben Stokes to return as England captain.

But Brendan McCullougham was pretty clear the other day when he was talking about his worry and concern for Ben Stokes. Stokes could play for Durham on Friday in the county championship. Ryan Campbell, the Durham head coach, said yesterday that he's in good spirits. We don't know when the investigation by the ECB will conclude, but there's only three days between the end of this second test and the beginning of the the third test at Trent Bridge and after the ECB investigation will also have an investigation from the cricket regulator as well. Agers, I'll start with you. Because you've seen them all. I think dirt in the pockets. All right. Okay.

Pedalo. Yes. Zimbabwe. Text gates. Where does this rank on the crisis omit? It's interesting because it's, I mean, it is a mess and I think what struck me about this to start with was a lot of people not quite getting why it's a serious issue. And by serious, I mean, look, we're talking about cricket. I mean, you know, there are serious issues of serious issues, let's be honest. But the reason that this has become what it has become is because of the context. And that's the real problem here with English cricket desperately trying to show that it's improved its image, which, let's face it, is really poor. If you are the governing body of English cricket at the moment, it's a mess.

You have a team of players, six of whom, as you've mentioned before, before this test match, have been involved in alcohol-related instances. And let's face it, they've been pretty bad ones, frankly. I mean, remember Ben Duckett wandering around Nusa. Obviously, there's the Harry Brook business in New Zealand. I mean, these are really bad for the image of English cricket. And the whole point of the curfew, which I've always hated the idea of a curfew, I mean, you should not need a curfew in an international sports team.

You really shouldn't. I mean, the players should know what they've got to do and they should be able to act responsibly enough. But the reason for bringing that in and for everybody to buy into it is to try and address that issue and the image of the game. We're cleaning it up. Although you've never heard the ECB in any way admitting that there's an issue, but clearly, you know, obviously there is. So for the captain, therefore, to break it, is serious and it is serious. But where it goes from here, the whole thing has lingered far too long for me.

I mean, there are people in responsible positions within the setup who surely should be able to investigate something like this, which is, after all, like a team breaking of a protocol, isn't it? That's surely, you know, you've got managing directors, you've got chief executives. How many more people do you need actually to consider this? You've got an eyewitness in the security guard who was there anyway. Surely, there'd be CCTV, there'll be all these things. Why hasn't this thing just been settled? And I think, you know, we don't know where this is going.

And the fact that it hasn't been settled, I think most people would agree, is worrying. because nobody that I've come across, and I certainly don't want this to be the end of Ben Stokes. We need Ben Stokes to be playing for England, and I think we need him to be captain. He's been an inspirational leader. The Ashes was clearly massively disappointing, but of the three heads on the block, if you want to call it that, Kee McCullum and Stokes, he seemed to be perfectly safe. It was the other two, really, who took the blame, if that's the right word for the preparation, and all those things that we've talked about a million times,

Stokes seem to be the most secure. However, just to go back to that context for the captain, therefore, with all of that in the background, to have done this, is a serious issue, because the board have to try and address this image issue and demonstrate that their team are not out there on the RAZ every night. That's the image, and they've got to do something about it. So when the captain does it, people have to understand,

That's why this has now become a serious issue. For everything that Aga has just said there, the context, image, what might be going on in the background, is this now more than just about someone being out too late? I think from the reaction and the press conferences that we've seen, I just wonder whether there is a little bit of something that's gone on. Maybe the management group are looking at Ben and thinking, oh, can we do with the? without been in the team anymore. I'm completely with aggers that I can't think of someone who's got at least a little bit of credit, if not a huge amount of credit in the bank, to come back as a captain. If you go back over the last four years of this team, they've had some incredible moments,

and obviously in the last couple of years, they've not managed to get over the line against India and obviously against Australia. So they haven't won the big trophies, but they've won plenty of games. And you'd have to argue the combination of Ben and Baz has been a very strong, entertaining one. He's just not been able to get over the line in the big series. I don't know, but I get a sense that something's happened with that relationship. You know, the director of English cricket, Rob Key, he got us four times to say that Ben Stokes would come back as captain

if the investigation was a thorough one and it's not going to be a positive one for Ben because he's done the wrong thing by going out too late. But all he's done, I just keep thinking. thinking all he's done is gone out an hour or so too late. There's no way in a million years that that is enough for him not to Captain England again. You know, the fact that he hasn't released a statement or the ECB, Ben, combination of not released a statement of an apology, you know, that gives me an indication that he's not happy with the way that it's been dealt with.

That could have taken the heat out, couldn't it? Yeah, the ECB clearly aren't happy because they've not been able to get Ben to agree of something. Clearly they would have had conversations. I think I heard you the other day. They're speaking to him every single day. I think the emotions would have been very angry from the ECB management understandably. The captain would have been involved in this kind of reset, this reprogramming, the protocols of what's going to happen to this England side going forward.

There's so much that has happened to this England side over the course of a short space of time under this management. You know, you actually look at the whole reset and think, well, what's actually changed? you've got all the same leadership group for this new reset. So once your captain breaks that, I thought last week it had been quite a, it's not easy because there's a lot of conversations to be had, but I thought it had been quite a simple procedure of getting the captain in a room.

You release a statement. He apologises. Yet the skipper might get two games, suspension. Gus Atkinson, as a player, gets one, and we look forward to having Ben back against Pakistan later in the summer. Because that's not happened, this is why we're talking. And I think over the course, course of a week, generally when you do a press conference in tough times, you try and not give

the story more legs. Well, I think they've given us quite a few spiders in terms of the legs that they've developed because we're all having this conversation because we're all questioning whether it is likely, and I hope not, that Ben Stokes may never number one captain England again. And there's got to be a doubt because we're having this conversation that Ben Stokes might never play for England again, which I can't see that's going to be right for England again. English cricket. Do we not though, Cookie, sometimes just need to take what we're told at face value that Rob Key and Brendan McCullum generally, genuinely can't make a judgment on the future because the investigation's not being concluded and that they are worried about Ben Stokes's

well-being? You can be, but they were given so many opportunities to say we want Ben Stokes back after he's done his punishment or after the regulator's done his beer. and whether that is this next game or the game after or whenever they were given so many opportunities to say that and not one of them could say that so you talk about we take everything at face value what is there to take a face value because they're asked on a number of occasions do you want ben's takes back and they didn't answer the question so now we're now discussing it purely on speculation about what's happened and this is why it's an awkward conversation because someone will be listening to this who knows everything that's Ben

Ben, Baz, Rob, and listen, go, they're talking absolute nonsense. Because if only they knew, but we don't know. So we have to then start guessing ourselves and start piecing it together. The thing which is, I'm a little bit different for Agers on this one actually. The Nusa, and I go back to Nusa because it's kind of like the start of it. My first initial reaction to seeing the lads on the 2-0 down at 12 o'clock in the afternoon. Yes, they were given down time, yes they're off, but on an Ashes tour, the most best tour you can be. on and certainly enjoy yourself but when you're two-neill down the public look of

lads in shorts flip-flops and sunglasses having trays of beers taken to you was a bad look for the England cricket team even though how hard I know these guys work how hard they train and clearly in theory you start putting a tour together and you're like right yeah we work really hard for the first bit they got that bit wrong the preparation then we have two games test match and then you know we want to we want to save a bit of energy give a regroup three days a new so what a great idea actually is a good idea on a long eight weeks tour never been done before never

been thought of before it's more net state keep the group together but then that is when you have to be a bit of flexible and go go we're two nil down I can't have beers taken at 12 if you want to go and do that you cannot be seen even on an Essex pre-season tour I'm gonna say an Essex pre-season tour which is which is purely utterly has been used as team bonding for the last ten years since I've been on it and cricket because everyone's been playing cricket was purely just there to get them back together we were told them certainly do not drink in the hotel pool bar at lunchtime but there rules they're

like they'll like it's common sense because we had in Essex supporters coming out going and we didn't want to see our image of just enjoying ourselves well even how hard we're working so I'm a little bit if on this occasion England have won a test match ten days gone and he's gone out to celebrate because he's great because they're allowed yes he's missed the curfies so he's made a mistake but I don't know I did something with toughers before this test match and I asked a question to them. Would anyone be mine, Ben Stokes,

after what's happened in that previous game of him coming out and captain, everyone said, no, we want him out there. We want him out. The public image, I think on this one, has taken, not to Australia, but on this one, has actually taken Ben Stokes. This is a real problem for the ECB. And the leadership group, because, you know,

again, we're speculating about what they've done and did the CEO last week, say to Ben Stokes, again, I don't know, we'd like you to resign. I'm not sure, again, speculation. until we get a thorough statement from both parties, we're going to carry on talking. You know, the one thing I will say is that, you know, I think it's very important.

Sometimes time is a healer. And there was a huge amount of anger from Ben's side as well and the ECB side. I hope over time that kind of feathers out. The one thing that, you know, the public and the cricket fans out there will want is Ben Stokes playing cricket. And this is why the ECB have got themselves now in a position

that if they take Ben Stokes out of that position for the fact that he's gone out drinking just an hour or so too late and they've suspended him as well, which I agree with. I think you clearly have to be punished as a captain when you break your protocols. Ended investigation, not suspended yet. Well, don't get me starting.

I'm with Agarzon. I just don't quite see how you need a cricket regulator to deal with a situation like this. On the Tuesday, on the Tuesday, on the Wednesday. You know, the CEO, the director of cricket, they get in the room they get, the security guy there. Tell us what happened. You're part of our management group. All right, Ben, you were outside, apparently. You weren't in the kind of

the fray in the nightclub. We suspended you for two. We suspend Gus for one. And hopefully you'll be back. If you're good enough, you're playing well enough. You'd be back as captain against Pakistan. I thought it was quite a simple procedure. Just picking up on what Alistair said, Jonathan. Firstly, the idea of a curfew. And secondly, there will be people listening to this now, shouting at the radio saying what is the problem with having a drink after you've won a test match? None. No problem at all.

What I think is interesting as well with the collection of you three here is the different eras in which you played the game. And, Cookie, you finished in 2018. I guess when did you start? Sorry. A while ago. But how attitudes have changed? And I guess my question is, has cricket been slow to change in comparison?

comparison to other sports, or is it different? It's a really good question. And I mean, I just want to make it clear. I have got absolutely no problem with players celebrating a win. I mean, and the pressure and the tension and the relief at having won that game is fantastic. You just don't go and do it as they did it. It's as simple as that. And there is a curfew because of the way that they've behaved.

I hate curfews. It shouldn't be there. But that's what's been put there because of what's happened in the past. therefore you can't you can't you can't go breaking it if you want to you know and they started at one o'clock in the afternoon didn't they so I mean it's a fair old session just go to in your room you know you got to midnight how much longer how much longer do you want but actually I mean I've been looking at this so there was in in 1983 I think it was the sex drugs and rock and roll tour of New Zealand

sadly I wasn't done that but there were lots of reports from that and that was when journalism changed a bit the cricket journalism changed and news reporters were sent out and there was a massive character called Ian Buggtham who was who worked I think I'm right in saying for Sun Mirror Sun there's a like a tabloid war over here you know because he was such a he was such a huge character and and yes the tabloids really projected him and they were after him you know and it was clearly very difficult for Ian who who well I I mean, he was, I suppose, he was sort of targeted. But it just seemed that the attitude in those days was more, well, then they're naughty boys.

David Gower flying his tiger, well, he didn't fly it, but sitting in the tiger moth, buzzing the ground. You know, always treated with humor. Andrew Flintoff here today on his pedalo. You know, there's, oh, well, boys will be boys. It's as if it was kind of treated like that in those days. And you're right, that cricket hasn't really moved. on. I mean, were you on that? Andrew Fliss. Yes, you were captain of the Freddie peddalo, weren't you? You know, all time was out, two in the morning or something. He

launched a pedalow off. We just lost to New Zealand, I think, in the World Cup, isn't we? And it was kind of seen as a bit of a, yeah, a bit of a giggle by people outside of it. I mean, you guys weren't? I mean, you dropped him for the game, didn't you? He was put out to the press. He got the vice captain's seat taken off of him. You're correct. So, I mean, he was, but it was still like a bit of a, oh, you know but but but but I don't think that cricket really has has moved on tours along the the the tours are a long time away from home and um and they're every winter so you're an average cricketer and you know they're away from home during the summers you're away a lot

there's a lot of dead time a lot of dead time and you know what what can they do they apparently play too much golf that's criticized well Okay, so what else are we going to do for this with this downtime? I'm not saying going out and drinking like that as an excuse. But the problem is that on this winter and now, it's just been too public. People have seen it. It's been out there and people have seen it.

Yeah, I mean, you go back to the Harry Brooks situation. I think the ECB will regret the way that they treated that situation where Harry was, you know, I think he had a bit of a fracas with a bouncer. The night before again, and he captained in England that day. Yeah. Now, I think Ben will probably be saying to the ECB, but wait a minute, Harry Brooke, who was England captain the night before the game, went out and did what he's done. He's played every single England game since. And he only got to find me because the regulator came involved in January when the telegraph exposed the story.

So you can see from Ben's side, it would say, but wait, but this is a reset, and this is the point that the reset happened, and it happened after the winter, and the curfew was put in place. I was staggered, actually, last week when I heard that Gus Ackson didn't know about the, curfew. I know about the curfew. I think we all know about the curfew. I was staggered to hear that an England player. Didn't kind of realize what the curfew was. I'm not having that for an excuse. What you have to do, what what what you, and the one thing I have learned through things a job long time and those sorts of stories, you've got to front up and you've got to be honest.

If you have to, because otherwise it bites you. However far down the line, it's always far, far worse. If you've not been open and honest to start with, you've tried to hide something or You try to make little excuses. They did do that. You see, we got the statement out on Monday night. Oh, yeah, this time. Yeah, I actually think this time, I mean, they have to deal with this one. I thought about Harry Book, where that was definitely a cover-up.

You know, that will just come back. And you just feel that everything since has actually, you go back to the cover-up, actually, and the way that people felt about that. And that, I think, has led, well, led to the curfew and all these sorts of things. And that was their mistake back then. they didn't act and they didn't make it public and done because then it's then it's dealt with end of it's been dealt well as it did it was a monday night but now it's another eight nine days no i think to get it out was was was dealt with well but since i think they've they've they've added far too many

legs yeah so i'm not sure it has been handled with a couple with a couple of press conferences where clearly uh rob key was under instruction not to give ben stokes a hundred percent back in as was bas macullin joe root's not really said much about it really as interim captain so clearly that is the message from what i'm again speculation from what i can read into it that's the message from the ECB to all those that are getting interviewed uh make sure you don't say 100% that ben stokes will be coming back into that sounds like lawyers involved isn't it i don't know it must be it must but i don't look maybe ben from his side is it is it's been saying one or two things that you know it's not been what they want to hear and vice versa and and

And then they've had a big hoo-ha. And as I said, hopefully over time, that kind of fire from both sides will just kind of eke out. And they'll be able to get the heads together and make sure. Because it's all about the fans are the most important aspects of the game. England cricket fans are a huge part of our game. And I reckon if you went to every single one of them, I would say 99% of them would say, we want Ben Stokes back as our captain. Absolutely.

What would be interesting would be the reaction of people who were in Australia, who'd spent a lot of money to go. I made a massive commitment to go and support the team. I reckon they will feel more moved or emotional about what's happened since because of what they saw there and the disappointment of that tour. And yet this kind of reset hasn't happened. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. What do Beatles member Sir Paul McCartney?

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talk about the level that you sort of have to carry yourself at. So when there is a protocol And whether or not you agree with the idea of a curfew or not But it was in place How conscious were you to that you had to set the standard for your team And I don't know, is that hard? Is that an extra burden to carry? Well, absolutely it's a burden, but it's what you sign up for Your captain, you're judged on not just what you do on the pitch mainly

But how you want to operate, how you want to operate, how you want your side to operate, how you want people to look at the side. I mean, we had some great, as a player, as a captain. We were looked at in 2013, we won the ashes as a side and everyone hated us. And we won, and I couldn't get my head round it. I couldn't get my head around the, you know, we won three, nil maybe, could have won four nil and yet we didn't feel any connection with the public and then that was, and then you find out that when you lose five nil away from home

and that connection's not there, there's not there. there's not much love at all. So that was part of my reset in 2013-14, was trying to then get England's fans back on our side. And it wasn't just about winning. It was about how we were as a group, how we were in public, not just when you were playing cricket.

So it absolutely is important. It's absolutely vital that you get that side of it right, and that's why it becomes all-encompassing, because it's not just the eight hours or nine hours when you're at the cricket ground. Yeah, I mean, the most important, art of the of captaincy else obviously

tactical managing your team managing your players but it's having that incredibly strong relationship with your coach you know when an England team is operating well the combination you know Strauss and Flower

Bayless and Owen Morgan you can never do Nassar Hussein and Duncan Fletcher had a great relationship myself and Duncan and I've always looked at that and thought when the captain and the coach are on the same wavelength and they speak to the public on the same kind of pathway and everything about the team.

I go, yeah, we're all right. We're in a safe pair of hands. From this situation, I find it a bit of a worry for English cricket. The Ben Stokes-Bas McCullum relationship. The Ben Stokes-Rob-Kee relationship. You know, on the back of what we saw in the press conference just two or three days ago from Baz and also from Rob Key last week, I would doubt whether that relationship or those relationships can be molded together again.

And that would be a concern for me. So therefore, I'll start with you, Jonathan. Is Ben Stokes going to be England captain again? Well, I hope so. I really do. And the longer this whole thing drags on, it's the more damaging that it is, isn't it? I mean, it's just, it shouldn't,

we shouldn't be sitting here having to talk about this today. This should have been dealt with. And so inevitably, you do wonder, you know, why. Do the ECB really not want Ben Stokes to be captain anymore? Surely not. But what's happened in the meantime, for them not to give that backing? Is it because they can say,

well, look, we've got to wait for the regulator and these various inquiries. Are they worried about what the regulator might say? I think there's going to have to be a decision from the ECB's own investigation as to whether or not Stokes, a punishment for Ben Stokes and for Gus Atkinson

and whether or not they can return to play or Stokes can be captured. Because the regulator will be a long way down the way. Just explain what the two things are. So why is there a separate ECB investigation and then it goes to a regulator for an investigation? Why are there two?

Well, there were two with the Harry Brooke situation as well, because the initial fine and punishment to Brooke, they were part of an ECB. That was ECB. And it was only referred to the regulator later on. I guess there would be two things here in that there is an employment matter, Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson or ECB employees, whereas the regulator looks after the entire game. So that's why I would suggest there are two different investigations going on. And so, yeah, I wouldn't confuse the regulator what they could do as a punishment, because that might come quite a long time down the road. As we saw with Brooke, that took a little while, and there were all sorts of other cases actually floating around in the game at the moment. Well, it took a while because they brushed it under the carpet for two and a half months.

But the other thing, the regulator does take a long time sometimes to come to its... But why does it take so long? I don't understand why it's taking so long? More important, why is the ECB one taking so long? That's the damaging one. That seems ridiculous. The most... I don't understand the regulator. Why is the regulator taking so long?

So it goes back to that question of do we think Ben Stokes will be England captain? That's not the question because the regulator, we're asking why is he taking so long and the regulator? Do you think he will be? I think the one question I think we know, no one knows, but is does Ben Stokes want to be England captain? Like, does he want to be England? A few weeks ago he did, he put out that very powerful statement.

If Ben Stokes wants to be captain or has he had a Kane Williamson moment, do you I mean, I don't like, and he doesn't know. Can that happen? Absolutely. But it doesn't, it seems strange to happen after in such a short space of time. He's speaking to Kane Williamson about it. Not that I have, but you know, talking to, he's been battling that for a while. But for everything from Ben Stokes, from that Instagram post, which as I said to

add, as he seemed to communicate via his messages through Instagram about how upset he was about the ashes and how much he's looking forward to coming back and putting it right. So look, can Ben Stokes captain, do I think he should? If his heart is still in that job, then what happened on that one night shouldn't mean he can't be going to captain again. And I'm pretty sure, and again, I'm, again, speculating, is this 40-minute scene that he was about speculating,

is that all those players certainly want him to be their leader. I haven't heard anything from players. Now, I'm starting to now be a little bit concerned about the team management whether they want him to captain, but certainly from the players, I haven't heard any whisper or anything. Ben Stakes, our captain, we love playing under him,

and why wouldn't you? Because he seems to have that good character, like that character that people want to play. So I haven't really answered your question either. Sorry, Stephen. I think it'll be an absolute Travis, Steve. He doesn't come back as England captain. I honestly do.

I think he has got that much credit in the bank. I think this team needs him as a leader, as a captain. awareness of the game has been right up there with some of the best captains I've seen. You know, he's struggling with the batting hand, but I think he can get that back. His bowling has been a revolution. He was the best bowler with Josh Tong in the winter. The relationship with the coach and the director is an interesting one for me.

They've got to try and iron that one now. But there's many more at the ECB that haven't got that credit in the bank that are making this call. I absolutely think Ben Sto should. Whether he will, it is out of our power. It's not for us to decide whether he will, but I think I wouldn't want to be that person that says to the English cricket fan, Ben Stokes is not our captain anymore. Or has something gone on on that Ashes tour about the style of how they want to play as a team between Stokes and McCullough, which is now, you know, they were so aligned and then they weren't, in that ashes they weren't aligned at the end. In public, on more than one occasion, they have said we have not fallen out. And then you're going to talk about everything at face value.

You're never going to come out in a press. We're not going to publicly say, oh, by the captain and coach, log aheads. They're never going to say that. Okay. So in all of this, in answering that question, how important is Joe Root's role in all of this? And I'll give you an example, Agass,

because you and I were there in Rural Pindi in 2022. Remember when the whole team pretty much went down with illness the day before the game? Right, yes. And Root was the one who ended up effectively doing the captain's press. conference the day before and he was asked well if Ben Stokes can't play tomorrow or whatever are you going to be captain and he ran a mile from it and there's been a couple of other occasions that I've got an unhealthy relationship or I had an unhealthy

relationship with the captaincy I think he said that ship sailed with me with me being captain again yesterday when he got asked you know can you see yourself doing this again he didn't say that he does want it but he didn't say that he doesn't want it either but he looks like he's enjoying it and certainly chatting to him this morning he had a big smile on his face didn't he and I mean I mean his role in this is huge, isn't it? And he's one of Ben Stokes' best friends.

And so I suspect they're probably talking quite a lot. And for a start, I said earlier, I think I think Root wants to make it clear that he's not kind of stabbing his mate in the back by becoming captain and making it easier for the board. But there's nobody else. Who else could possibly captain England

at the moment? So it falls on the best player. The fellow who's been around long, long time to step up and kind of do everyone a favour. But I don't know what they're these two. I mean, if he see B make a call that Ben can't come back in a leadership role, I think the only captain that he could probably play under his Joe. You know, and I don't see Ben. He might be able to persuade him to do it.

Yeah, maybe I don't see Ben as the kind of character that would just walk back into that dresser-room easy as a player. It'd be very hard. I see him purely as. captain that have been in the team. I see him purely as the leader. Yeah, he's such a big character. Yeah, I think there's been many that have been able to,

Joe Root's a perfect example, being a captain for a period of time, then he gave it up and he's been a brilliant player for four years without it because he likes just being in that group, being the player. I would have found it very difficult going into a team after captaining for a while being just a player. It's just my style of captaining. And I think Ben would struggle to be the player, but if there's one really respected human being in that dress room

that he would do it for, I think it would be Joe Root. How did you find it, I was going back into the ranks after being captured? Yeah, interesting. Interesting. I was probably somewhere in between, I think. I enjoyed it because there is way less pressure on you. You're not having to worry about it as much, but certainly I, towards, that's the reason I retired.

It was just different, and I had no issue Captain Under Rootier at all, and we had a great relationship, but there were certain times where he would have said something and I actually fundamentally disagreed with it but wasn't there for me to then put my hand up and then start arguing a different point because I'd had my time. So that balance

I think probably Ben could play under Harry Brook as well I think. We all thought that it was Ben Stokes' destiny to be moving towards this ground again at the end of next summer end of an Ash's series

maybe he's finally got his hands on the as captain and that might be the end of his career the players have just come down the steps and they're gathering by the boundary edge so morning well i'm if england win this week yeah you know there's probably a likely chance that he won't play at trentbridge if they win at trentbridge and they win the series three-nill you know you could see them kind of just moving in a in a different direction but if he but if he plays for durham on friday i think he's going to and everything's fine and he's obviously he's obviously fine in himself And this review is still going on, it would seem utterly ridiculous that he's not playing at the Trembridge,

or at least there isn't some sort of conclusion to it all. If he's out there playing cricket for Durham, he should be out here playing for England. If the reviews... I agree, but you know with English... There's the curfews in it, Durham thing. You know with English cricket, it's all about that in the middle, and that's winning games of cricket. And if you're winning, you know, you can pretty much make all the calls,

and no one complains about them because you're winning games of cricket. When you start losing, and you lose with... Without Ben Stokes, I would say that Ben Stokes will get the call to come straight back into the side. Answer from each of you, who's England's captain for the first Ashes test next summer? Ben Stokes. Ben Stokes. Ben Stokes. There we go.

There's still some water to go onto the bridge, isn't it? As long as he gets to bed. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Five Lives for... My favourite World Cup moment. It's the first World Cup I properly remember watching. Argentina 78, the ticker tape, Mario Kempers, Ari Hahn's scoring goals from miles out,

and always one of my favorite World Cup moments, Archie Gemmell's great goal for Scotland against the Dutch. What makes the World Cup such a special tournament is the atmosphere, the colour, it is a meeting of the nations, and of people who love football. The People World Cup 2026. Listen on BBC Sounds.

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