Test Match Special - Will Jacks is BACK for the Ashes

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

Henry Moeran is alongside former England Ashes stars Steven Finn & Dawid Malan, and the BBC’s Chief Cricket Reporter Stephan Shemilt to discuss Will Jacks' inclusion in the England Ashes squad. Jacks tells us how he found out he was in the squad. They also debate what Harry Brook taking over as vice-captain could mean for Ollie Pope. Plus, where does this set of England’s bowlers rank as the ‘most explosive’ to go to Australia?

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Oh, he's decided to launch into that, Will Jax. And he's taking it off and open midwick.

It always onto the top deck. And what a fabulous 15th for Will Jax. He enjoyed that one. That was a stunning strike. Hello, I'm Henry Moran. Welcome to the Test Match special podcast. Well, we have seen the white smoke coming from ECB towers. Brendan McCullum's conclave have chosen their 16 men

that they think will see the Ashes return to British Shore. for the first time since 2015. From the early hours of November 21st, you can hear it all as it happens on the BBC, every ball of every match from the men's ashes on BBC Sounds, 5 Sports Extra, and the BBC Sport app and website. And we'll keep you right up to date

with all cricketing matters with a daily test match special podcast from Australia as well. So make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode right. then to run the rule over a squad that does have one or two surprises. I'm very glad to be alongside two men who know the pressures of an away Ashes series all too well. Former England fast bowler Stephen Finn and batter David Milan plus the BBC's Chief Cricket reporter, Stefan Schemilt. Hello to you all, lovely to have you with us.

Right, first and foremost, Will Jacks is a name. I think, Stefan, we were a little bit surprised to see. on that list. Yeah, a little bit. Brendan McCullum told us last Sunday when it was raining at Trent Bridge during that last T20 between England and South Africa

that probably the only point of discussion in the England squad was that second spinner. A lot of us thought it was going to be rare and Ahmed because of the form that he's shown and what he offers actually a little bit of something different

with his leg spin and maybe he could be that all-round option to cover for Ben Stokes if Ben Stokes can't get through the five test matches. I don't think we'll Jacks was on many people's radar. Maybe Liam Dawson or Jack Leach

might have been other names, but it felt like the ship had sailed for those two. But Jacks has got the nod. He has got similar qualities to Ray and Ahmed, really. He's a batting all rounder rather than a bowling all rounder. He mimics show of Bashir and that he's a tall off

spinner. And he does give that all round cover for England, if anything were to happen to Ben Stokes. You could see that Jacks could slot in at six or seven and England could still play four specialist seamers. In all of that, though, if the only surprise in a squad is the identity of the second spinner, it shows that England are pretty settled and their plans have come together

because ultimately, if Will Jax has a big say on the outcome of the Ashes earn, I'd be quite surprised. So the fact that the second spinner is one of the big talking points shows just how well England's plans from their point of view have come together. David, what did you make of the decision to see Will Jacks coming in as that second spinner? Bit surprised, actually. I thought Liam Dawson would have been the one they would have gone for. Not necessarily only for his spinning, but for his batting as well. You know, lengthening that tail quite a bit, I know show Bashir.

And if you've got Woody and Jop and those guys in the team at the same time, you're probably got a long tail, which Australia are really, really good at killing the tail with their bowlers. so yeah a bit of a surprise to me but I guess it gives England a different option as well they now have someone that if they decided they didn't want to play Bashir at say a Perth where they think is going to be green and seam orientated that they still have a spinner being able to play

and bat at eight and without losing their seamers so I think it gives them a couple of options now even though it is a bit of surprise I think it does give them more options in terms of the structure of the team they want to go for moving forward if they decide a spinner is not going to be something they'd like to play or an out-and-out spinner they want to play at one or two of the

rounds. Five wickets in 74.1 overs in first class cricket this year, Thinney for Will Jax. You compare that to some of the performances we've seen from Dorson, Leach and Ray and Ahmed. I mean, numbers-wise, you could make the case that Jacks doesn't necessarily have the justification to be in the squad, but equally, we do know England like a tall off spinner. We know that England are looking for somebody that is going to be able to offer something with the bat as well. And we also know that numbers, County cricket bear very little resemblance in terms of what in terms of their selections? Yeah, I think all of the above. I also think it shows how little they think that

spin is actually going to play a part in this Ash's series. Perth, to me, doesn't look conducive to spin. Brisbane, day-night test, not conducive to spin. Adelaide is notoriously flat, but it doesn't spin. And Melbourne and Sydney in recent years have been seen bowlers' paradises over the last couple of Australian summers. So, yeah, I think they've taken a hedged bet on what they expect conditions to be like. I also think it's probably worth caveatting the fact that the England Lions will be on Australia in the same cities at the same time, and they wouldn't be ruling out if they were presented with conditions that were going to be significantly spinny, which is clearly

unlikely, then they can just parachute someone in from that Lions squad, be it to Iran Ahmed or someone of the like. So, yeah, look, I think as Stefan says, if we're, our main talking point of this Ashes squad is the second spinner, then I think England will feel as though they're in a good place. The fact that they've kept that core of players together is good, I think, going into a series where Australia are particularly unsettled with the batting line up and the identity of those batters

and the fitness of their bowlers. I think a lot bodes well for England, but they will have to start the series as well to make an imprint on him. Interesting what Steve Smith said to the BBC a couple of months ago, spoke about the pitches in Australia. Their battles are going to be challenged a little bit different to the wickets that they've had over in England for a while, which have looked pretty flat and good for batting. David, it's an interesting one, this, isn't it?

Because you batted with success in Australia. I remember that 140 you scored at the Wacker and everyone always talks about these sort of very distinctive conditions in Australia. But it is going to be a little bit different perhaps given some sort of shifting in terms of the conditions there. Yeah, well, from the first ashes I played in, I thought they were extremely flat. Apart from maybe the Wacker, I didn't find them that quick. They were a little bit bouncy, which they tend to be. But they're moving to the second ashes four years later.

They were totally different. They were actually really spicy. They seemed like they nipped the whole game. They actually got worse as the game good on. Generally, they get a little bit better. I know Brisbane gets a bit quicker in general or historically. But, you know, they actually felt like they nipped. The MCG wasn't the dead, slow wicked that it was over the last couple of years.

And it hasn't been the same recently. It's been really green and spicy. It plays a bit like Perth at the moment. And that new Perth one is totally different to the old Perth. The new Perth one is, it's really steep bounce. And it doesn't, you don't look it on TV, but it feels like it's, constantly going to hit you in the throat of a length. It's got that really weird feel about it, even though it's a hell of a ground. So, yeah, and if you look at the way Australia

played over the last couple of years, they have played on green spicy wickets. They have played on wickets which have been more conducive to their seam bowlers. And that's probably why they've been in the same issue that England were a few years ago with their bat is not scoring runs and being a bit unsure. But I would be very, very surprised if Australia turned up with some flat wickets against this batting lineup of England. I think they would want those spicy wickets and see if they're able to test their patience and test the basball theory if that's what you want to call it still down in australia with more bouts and a bit of movement steph you've got a big smile on your face because this is a cricket

writer's dream isn't it all these little narratives it wasn't that i was thinking that david shouldn't be saying that those pitches were flat when he got a hundred the whackery should be saying that it nipped all over the place and only good players would have got a hundred there that was the that was the toughest one of the tour i must admit yeah well Well, we remember that James Vince dismissal against Mitchell Stark that game, which it seemed like a straight and one leg break, any of it, or nipped off that little crack in the pitch. But, Steph, this is the sort of thing that we love discussing,

isn't it, how the surface is going to play, how the sides are going to pick themselves? I was wondering if Australia have just been trolling us for the past few years, in the all we've heard from English cricket, how long have we heard it, that you've got to have pace and bounce and hostility to do well in Australia? and actually they've got a new kookabura ball that seems to be nipping all over the place.

The pitches are spicier and it's Scott Boland who's been tearing through India and maybe it's the traditional English sema who would have actually done well in Australia. We'll find out, won't we? Because we are told that the conditions are much different in Australia than what they've been used to be. So England might have spent all their time

getting all these big nasty fasties together and it turns out that, I don't know, Darren Stevens could have ripped through Australia. right let's hear from will jacks he's been speaking to rick edwards on five live breakfast on the back pages everyone's describing you as the kind of surprise call-up was it a surprise to you a little bit i think when you're around the team and around the groups there's always a possibility and as i found the ashes is it's always being the biggest thing and an ashes away from home everyone looks up to that as a kid and it's something i was hugely looking forward to

either watching and now obviously hopefully playing in it How did you find out? Who calls you? What did they say? Yeah, Brendan Baz called me, had a bit of a casual chat and then after a minute just dropped it in so it took me completely by surprise

and definitely brightened up my morning. Did you feel like your form at the moment was definitely putting you in the frame? You've only played a couple of test matches for England before, but I guess they'd like what they've seen. Yeah, I think obviously that comes into play. I think hopefully my character around the group

and what I can bring to the squad it's obviously a 16 man squad so everyone plays their part and hopefully I can play a role in various different situations within an 11 if I have the chance and I guess that's what I can bring to the team. And I guess they've seen from your white ball play

that you can really help with both bat and ball and so could be a very valuable member of the squad. hopefully yeah I'm happy to play whatever role the team needs and that's what I've been doing in the white ball be it's a great environment to be a part of what Harry and Baz have been doing

in the white ball and obviously with Stokesy and how he's led over the last three years with the test team has been was great to be a part of when I had my small time with them and to watch has been incredible so I'm really looking forward to being a part of it again who are the spinners playing in the game

at the moment who you look to and try and learn from. I mean, obviously, Australia got a pretty good one in Nathan Lyon. Yeah, I was going to mention Nathan Lyon. I think he's been doing it for so long and on sometimes Australian pitches that are seen favoured. So he's someone who I think all spinners look up to with the amount of revs and bounce he gets on the ball.

I think the person I've worked closest with has been my sorry coach, Gareth Bassi. He kind of pushed me when I was 21 years old from more of a real part-time to someone who really looked at it with more importance and he saw that opportunities would be there for me in the future if I did give it a real go. So around COVID time when we has an extended period of training,

we really focused on it there and then it's been a progression from there. You've got a broken little finger at the moment, I think. How's it feeling? Yeah, it's my ring finger on my left hand. It's okay. It's a bit sore. Unfortunately, I'll be out for a little bit. So no white ball tour to New Zealand for me,

but I'll be ready for the Ashes and excited for that. Yeah, are you ready for, I mean, yeah, you've played in a lot of high-profile games, obviously. But the scrutiny that everyone gets in Ashes series is something else. Is there any way that you can kind of get ready for that? Yeah, I've obviously seen that on the TV growing up and over the last few tours. It's something that I'm firstly just excited to be a part of the,

obviously the vocal Aussie fans and kind of being 15 of you against all of them is something that I think everyone would love to be a part of. But yeah, you'd hope that the cricket I've played so far, the experiences in the IPL where you're playing in front of incredibly loud

and high numbers of crowds and playing for England, anytime you play for England, is high intensity and high pressure. So hopefully I'm prepared and we'll find out. What sort of person are you to coach? We come across so many different coaches with obviously in cricket we play with multiple different teams it's not just the same coach all year round and different balls as well so yeah exactly so every day is different and you have to

there's a lot of information and you have to filter that to what works for you best so it's a bit of a learning curve when you're young you can kind of get overall by the amount of information or advice and it takes a while to figure out what really works for you and I think I understand that now so my training is quite specific and you have your your certain a few guys that you would really go to if you need some work. Well, that was Will Jacks chatting to Rick Edwards on Five Live Breakfast on Wednesday, the day after we got news of his inclusion in the England squad, which has got a couple of other little nuggets of intrigue, I think, in there as well.

And not least, Finney, the fact that Harry Brooke, England's whiteball captain, has been named as vice captain underneath Ben Stokes replacing Olly Pope in that role. I mean, what can we read into that in terms of Pope's vulnerability as his place at three? Well, yeah, I think a significant amount probably. I think clearly they probably see now Brooke the way that he's captained in the Whiteball games is the successor to Ben Stokes in the long run. So it seems like the logical switch in that regard that he then gets the opportunity if Stokes isn't fit to Captain England in the test match format.

But yeah, it removes. a layer of protection around Olli Pope, I suppose, when it comes to that number three position where previously it's always been, well, he's the vice captain and you can't drop the vice captain, that layer of protection has gone now. So, yeah, it makes him immediately more vulnerable. Whether they'll start the series with Jacob Bethel at number three is a further debate because clearly they're very keen to double down on the fact that they think Jacob Bethel is an excellent player. They did that during the white ball. series just now that they played against South Africa. They kept playing him. And they clearly

think that he's supremely talented. So I don't think it's out the realms of possibility that he will bat at number three in that first Ash's test. But I do think that's going to be the one selection call that England will have to make. Can I just ask to both of you, Finney and Doward, why do England need an official vice captain? Why does any team need an official vice captain? Why do they need to tell us? And the reason I ask that is, if you look at the Australians, they've got Travis Head and Alex Carey, I think, who share the vice captaincy duties. But if Pat Cummins goes down during the series, I think they've already said it'd be Steve Smith who steps up to lead. Why even tell us who the

vice captain is? Because all we're talking about now is you've taken the vice captaincy off Olly Pope, you've given it to Harry Brook. Therefore, Olly Pope must be for the chop. Why do they not just say, oh, we'll work it out as we go? I don't think it necessarily means he's for the chop. That's a a very journalistic way. Well, it's a very journalistic way of looking at it, Stefan. I am a journalist. Well, sometimes. But the, look, I do think it's something that is maybe slightly unique to English cricket in the sense that we like to name a vice captain. I wouldn't read all that much into it. I just think Harry Brooke is now the second in charge. He's probably

the second most trusted voice inside that dressing room and it creates a like a sequence of authority through that dressing room. So yeah, I think for Olly Pope, it does remove that layer of protection that he has had at being the vice captain, but I'm not reading all that much into him. Yeah, I have to agree with Stephen there. I think Olly Pope and I think the surprising thing for me is, well, surprise and not surprised. I think Harry Brooke is always going to be the next captain of England when Stokes decides that he's done. I'm surprised by the timing of it. I'm surprised that you could potentially have Ben Stokes,

who I'm actually watching, doing his fitness on the field in front of me here, but you can see him potentially going down as he's done in all the series. He's not got through a series for a hell of a long time, and you've got someone captained in an Ashes series, something that they've prepared for for three years under this regime to suddenly throw in someone who has never captained a test match. I don't think he's captained the first-class game before, not that that matters so much,

but just throwing him straight into a Nash's series when you've had this succession plan with Ollie Pope for a long time. So I think that's probably the most surprising thing for me because it goes away from everything England had done over the last three years, which is to back the players, keep things the same and keep it simple. Now, that's not to say,

I don't think Harry Brooks should be the vice captain. I think he should have been announced ages ago that he was the vice captain. It's just the timing of it. But to agree with Stephen there, I don't think it's going to have an effect on selection. I don't think now that you're not vice captain, you're suddenly not going to play the first test.

match, I think England would stick with exactly the same as what they've gone with over the last bit of time. The only thing that I think would be potentially different is if they decide not to play a spinner, then I think they'll decide whether they have to change the makeup of the team a little bit, whether that's a batter out for a batter that can bowl or two batters that can bowl. And that would be the only thing I think. But yeah, I think it is, as Stephen said, it isn't an English thing to make someone a vice captain. I think everyone's pretty much a leader in that group and everyone's voice is heard. Maybe that just means slightly more responsibility in where it comes to selection

and asking opinions on things moving forward, whether it'll be tossing or, you know, conditions and so forth. You can see a scenario, though, Steph, can't you? Where, say, as Davin mentions, the fact that Ben Stokes has struggled to get through an entirety of a series, you get to match for Oli Pope, who previously is across three matches, he's averaging 11, he struggles in the series, there's pressure on his selection place, yet he's the vice-captain. All this noise goes around. Actually, it removes that. And so in some ways, you might be protecting him a little bit.

I just wonder what Olly Pope is thinking today. And if you think of everything that we've been told by this England team and the messaging that comes out of the camp of, you know, togetherness and supporting players and clarity of messaging. towards the players. Oli Pope has been vice captain since the end of 2022. He has done a lot for England. He's stepped up as captain. He's kept wicket when they've needed him to and slid down the order. He stepped up to open the batting in Pakistan last winter.

He's batted at number six when they've asked him to. Remember back at the start of this summer, when Ben Stokes said there was a twisted media agenda against Oli Pope, when we were having the conversation of whether or not Bethel would come straight back into the side for the Indian. series and now out of nowhere he's been dropped as vice captain and whether england like it or not or whether or not it does mean anything that that layer of protection has been removed between him and bethel we are talking about it and we're going to be talking about it up until perth and if

oly pope gets put up gets put up for media we're going to ask him how do you feel about not being vice captain do you think you're going to lose your place it just feels an unnecessary knock to a player that has done everything he could for England. And yes, it's about results. But I think, again, Finney, we were talking about it at Trent Bridge. He averaged 34 across the summer against India. That is not stellar, granted. But that is what Olly Pope has done across his career.

Those are numbers that have meant England have stayed loyal to him. And if he averages 34 in the ashes, I reckon England might win. Well, we'll pick up this conversation shortly. Make sure that you're subscribed to the Test Match Special podcast. We'll be uploading a new episode every single day of the men's ashes. series this winter and you can hear every ball of every match of the series on BBC Sounds. It all gets underway on November 21st. Before then, plenty coming away with the women's 50 over World Cup right around the corner. Every ball of every match from that as well. From India and Sri Lanka,

it starts on the 30th of September and England begin their campaign. The first tournament led by head coach Charlotte Edwards and Captain Nat Siverbrunt on October the 3rd against South Africa. You'll be able to hear that on BBC Sounds with a match starting at 10.30 in the morning. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Stephen, what is England's best option at three? Well, this is a thing because none of us know the answer. It's really difficult. Yeah, exactly. And is Jacob Bethel the long-term answer at three? No, I think that he is naturally a middle order player when I watch him bat.

I'm not sure he is a number three, but we're not blessed with people who are jumping off the page at us as specialist number three batters, because I do think number three is a specialist position. So then you have to take an educated bet on who you think is going to do a good job for the team. I think Olly Pope has been an outstanding team man in the sense that he's been very selfless when he's thrown himself up the order, taking the gloves at a certain time. he's always been very willing to do what he can for the team, which are outstanding qualities for a player to have. Yeah, I'd be surprised if they went against the status quo for that first test,

just because then why didn't they play Bethel throughout the summer? Why didn't they change it after the third test, say, of the India series? Yeah, I actually can't answer that question, unfortunately, with a definitive answer. David can, though No, I would just say So the last series we played, Dan I know everyone talks about you You want to go down to Australia

And you win the ashes and what have you But I actually remember two days before the first test We're doing a fielding session And we had batters and bowlers mixed And everyone was sort of looking at each other going Are you playing? And the other one is going, I've not been told anything, are you playing?

And everyone's like, I don't know It got to the stage with people like Well, let's wait till tomorrow And then we're doing fielding again and guys were like, we're playing. And then someone's like, I don't know, I haven't been told about I'm not playing or not. And this is the day before the test latch. And you had, I think it was Barstow and Pope and they were unsure which way to go.

And then it was bowlers, I think Broad got left out. But it sort of everyone was unsure what was happening two days out and then a day up for the test match. And people only got told after training session what the first test was going to be. And they had this whole COVID and preparation. And we all did quarantine and had the whole time to work out what we were doing. And it got down to the last day after training before people knew what was happening. And I hope that this doesn't happen with this England team again.

I would be surprised if it does that they rock up and they're still unsure when they get to Australia who's going to bat three. I don't think it's going to be as clear-cutters, oh, let's see who does well in the one warm-up game we've got or the play against the Lions. I think they already know who the batting order is going to be, and it would just be whether it's a spinner or not a spinner. And if I don't play a spinner, whether it's a Bethel or Jacks that plays. And with all these Ashes series, the five test match series, you usually make a change after the third test match. if someone hasn't performed the most first couple and you're behind the game. If you're winning games of cricket, you probably stick with the same team for that fourth test as well. David, why is it such an important and challenging position as a man that has done it plenty?

And why might some say that Jacob Bethel isn't a number three batter? Well, I wouldn't say he's not a number three until he's given a good run at it. He is technically, if he, well, he's a bit like me. He likes to drive and he throws his hands at it, which is fine. That's the way he goes about it. But technically, he's actually very sound. He leaves the ball well. He's lined up very, very, very well.

And I'd actually think he'd be quite suited for Australia if he leaves the ball well. But number three is a unique spot that you have no idea when you're going to bat. Like you bat at four. You play the same game every time. You bat five. You play the same game. You walk in regardless of whether you're 10 for 2, 20 for 200 for 2. You walk in at 4 and you're playing the same game.

You're aggressive. You're taking the game on. When you're batting at 3, you know, you could walk in the first over the game as I did in that first test at Brisbane, you walk out the second ball of the test match. And then the next test match, you walk out at 100 for one. And it's your tempo is understanding when you're, if you're going to carry on with that tempo, if you have to find out different ways of working out. So it becomes incredibly tough. It's the same with whiteball cricket. It's a tough position to back because you have to do it so many times to understand which way you're going to go about it at that

specific time. Do you counterattack? Do you sit in for a bit? Whereas all the other positions, I feel like you just play the same way. So I'm not saying Jacob Beth or can't. I'm not saying he couldn't be as successful in the long run. He needs to get given an opportunity to do it and whether him getting an opportunity to do it for the second time or third test, whatever it is in the ashes, I don't think that's something that would be beneficial

to him or England just yet. Right, let's move on to the bowling attack. Chris Wokes doesn't make it, whether his fitness would have been an issue regardless or whether England would have gone a different route. He's not in the squad. And so it is the explosiveness of Wood Archer-Cast

Stokes potentially all lining up as well You've got all sorts of options arguably And Steph I know you've written about this It's England's quickest bowling attack To head to Australia in several generations So Stefan what do we make of this bowling attack I think if you'd offered this bowling attack To England last summer

When they nudged Jimmy Anderson into retirement They would have snapped your hand off For them to gather this group of fast bowlers And look, there's still time until the 21st of November, as Finney knows, you can get to Australia and not even make it through the first week. So there is still time for this to go wrong. But at the moment, England have all of the tools that they could have, they have publicly said that they want to take to Australia. Pace, bounce, hostility, options to rotate in and out throughout that five test series. I don't think Chris Wokes

Chris Wokes wasn't considered on fitness grounds there was the chat about Jamie Overton or whether or not he would take the sixth Seymour's slot but then he ended his Red Bull career or paused his Red Bull career opening the door to Matthew Potts there are questions over Mark Wood who won't have played a test match since August 2024 by the time the Perth test rolls around

but that being said I don't think England could have asked for anything more than the group of fast bowlers they are taking to Australia. Finney, the bowling attack in the final test match of the last Ashes series down under, Stuart Broad, Ollie Robinson, Mark Wood, Chris Wokes, Joe Root. It's a very different looking line-up, apart from Mark Wood being part of it, but it is a very different maker. Yeah, I think everything has been angled towards making sure that these players have enough games

and experience and fitness into them by the time they get to this Ashes series. The one caveat to all of this is that the pitches have been a bit spicier. We don't know what we're going to get, but there is a necessity for a line and length bowler in there, which Matthew Potts is, but he's not been favoured when England had been presented with those conditions over the last couple of years in test cricket. So I think that's an interesting addition to the squad. But certainly I'm excited about the way that these guys can go there. And stamp a mark on the series, you look at the first couple of test matches.

Perth should be quick and bouncy. As David mentioned, the bounce there feeling like it's going to rip your throat off. If you line up three of those six with Ben Stokes as a fourth, and then depending on whether they play a spinner or not, that's really exciting to lay a marker down in the series, which you absolutely have to do. When we won it in 2010-11, we were behind the game, but then that monster first innings with the bat in hand

set our stall out to then put a footer or have a foothold in the series. And England will have to do the same. And I think that this pace bowling attack with the conditions that they'll be presented in those first two games will give them the possibility to do so. David, what have you made of the selection

and the availability as much as anything? Well, I think they've got everyone they wanted apart from potentially woke if he was fully fit. I think it's exciting for England. They're actually rocking up to Australia with people that have got a bit of pace and a bit of skill. A lot of test matches underneath their belt.

You know, you've got Gus Atkinson, who still bowls fuller than most bowlers as well, and he still bowls at good pace. Jop balls quite full. Cast can pitch the ball up as well. Tung has shown that he can do it. So I think they've got all the strings to their bow is whether they can be consistent enough

and maintain the pressure. enough. In the times I've been that we've been poor with the bat and we didn't score enough runs. But, you know, it always felt like Australia found a way to get the pressure back on you and score and they'd be, still be 160 for four and you'd think we're in the game and they'd score 400. They'd found a way of doing that. So if you can maintain that pressure for as long as you can as a bowling unit, which I think these bowlers have done exceptionally well on the flat wickets that they've played on recently. So they've learned different skills. So whether they can use those skills and balls on wickets that are doing a little bit more

and be more consistent I think it would be great for England I'm actually really excited for the series I think this is probably the first time in a long time probably since Finney went down and won it that we're actually looking at a team that can actually push Australia

and potentially win down there and that's exciting from an England point of you and a supporters point of view too how much of that Finney that potential for England to win the series is down to this bowling attack and the fact that there is the explosiveness that we speak about

yeah it is but it's also only a component within the greater sum, which is the entirety of the team, but also the attitude that they're going to play with. I think when I've looked at the previous series, so 2013, 14, 17, 18, 21, 22, there was a timidness about the way that England played that mean that Australia just bully you. If you go down there and you don't puff your chest out and push back against Australia, they'll bully you for five test matches. Looking at this team turning up, with the characters that they have, the captain that they have, and this bowling lineup, they're not going to be bullied by Australia.

They might lose, but they're not going to be bullied whilst losing. They're going to push back at certain stages throughout this series, which I think that if you push back early enough in the series, you can turn the tide the other way. And the Australians can turn on themselves. There's infighting, the media turn on them, the public turn on them. And that's when you're ahead. And that's what we did in 2010-11.

And that's why I think this is England's best chance to win a second. series since then. Steph, would you agree with that? You've seen plenty of these tours down under and you've seen the elements that have gone right and gone wrong in that time. Yeah, and I've written that this is England's best chance to win since 2010-11.

I guess we do overlook the fact that in 2013-14, England had just won 3-0 at home and everyone kind of expected them to go to Australia and win. But certainly since then, this looks like the time the two teams are most evenly matched. We've just spoken about the fast bowling unit, but I do think it's England's batting that is their strength and where they hold the edge over Australia. And so much will just come down to Ben Stokes.

I think England's chances of winning without a fully fit Ben Stokes for the majority of the series really do dwindle. and going back to that first test in Perth and sort of linking it all together with the fast bowling line-up and who England decide to play on whether they play a spinner or not, a lot will depend on that fitness of Stokes because if Stokes can bowl his overs, then that changes the balance of the team.

If they're still just feeling their way back in, playing four specialist Seams is another way to protect Ben Stokes in that first test. But yeah, it is exciting, and England have got a chance, and there are definite weaknesses in the Australia team that can be exploited. Do you go along with that, Finney? It feels like there is just something a little different about this tour. Absolutely, yeah.

For the reasons that I gave before, in the sense that the way that England are going down there to play on the front foot is something that I don't think we've seen for a long time. And secondly, there are chinks in the armour of Australia that has been pretty sturdy, I think, on the last three ashes tours that have happened down under. Australia have been very settled, but you look at the top order turmoil that they've had and the discussions that continue to go around who's going to be the makeup of that top three. How do they fit Bo Webster and Cam Green into the same lineup because they seem desperate to do so?

They don't both fit into that middle order, so then you have to compromise something. Pat Cummins' back injury that has been plagued. down by Australia, but if you've got a stressed response in your lower back as a bowler six weeks out from a massive series, that's a worry. Josh Hazelwood hasn't played as much cricket in the last couple of years as he has done before. Nathan Lyons returns in Australia have been a lot lower than previously as well. So there are definitely things there for England to take advantage of. Australia will draw on the good memories that they've had of Ashes series recently and will be desperate to give the send-off to those great players that I just mentioned

in what will probably be their last Home Ashes series. So everything's to play for. I'm super excited about watching it. And it's a tough one to call, but England 3-2. And David, we've not even mentioned Joe Root having yet to score 100 down under. I think he's Joe, isn't he? Actually, I saw him. He was in our changing when he played the warm-up game here before he played all the test series.

He actually brought it up. He randomly was just talking about Australia and how he hasn't done it yet in any format, which is so surprising because he's been so consistent for so many years and he's done it so well. So that's something he wants to get off his chest. And I'm pretty sure knowing Joe Root that he would have worked out a way to have improved how he's gone the last couple of years. He'd probably studied how he's got out and how he wants to go about it.

But he's been so prolific for England over his whole career. And it probably shows that if, you know, Joe is not as prolific as he is in a certain country, England, aren't as successful. And I'm hoping that he finds it this year. I'm hoping that he finds the way he wants to go about scoring it. He gets that 100 off the chest. I'm pretty sure if he gets a hundred in that first or second test, he'll score two or three more in the series.

He's that good a player and he'll be that determined. So, look, I think everything's in Joe's favour now. He's relaxed. He hasn't got the captain's issues to worry about. He's not got to worry about who's going out and who's getting selected, left and center. So I think he'll be a lot freer mentally to be able to go. and just do what he does best

when he's concentrated with batting. Look, I'm really torn in this. I'm really torn because I'm desperate for Joe Rook to score 100 and he's imperative to England winning this Ashes series. But there's a lot of me that would love to see Matthew Hayden walking around naked, around the SCG. I'm very torn on that one.

What a thought to leave us on this episode of the Test Match Special podcast. My thanks to Stephen, David, and to Stefan as well. That is it for this edition. Every ball of every match of the men's ashes live on BBC Sounds. Perth to Brisbane to Adelaide to Melbourne to Sydney.

We'll be right there to bring you all the latest on and off the field. Daily Test Match special podcast throughout the whole series gets underway on November the 21st and look out for so much preview content to enjoy across the BBC. Plus, before any of that, there's the small matter of the women's 50 over World Cup

in India. Can Nat Siver Brunt and her side upset the odds and win the trophy back from Australia? Will it be India's year at last? Every ball of every game available to listen to from September the 30th. And you can keep up to date with all things cricket by following at BBC TMS on X and BBC cricket on Instagram. Thanks again for listening. We'll speak to you soon. Welcome to the team behind the team.

A new podcast series in partnership with the Open University where we'll be showcasing the people, the tools and the techniques that help athletes and teams reach elite level. Like all elite sports, it's a pyramid and everybody's trying to get to the top. It's not just my vision. It's a shared vision amongst the team. What is this? This is not the way I see the game. The team behind the team with Katie Smith. In partnership with the Open University.

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