Test Match Special - Women’s World Cup: GLORY for India

Episode Date: November 2, 2025

Henry Moeran is alongside 2017 World Cup winner Alex Hartley, TMS regular Prakash Wakankar, commentator Daniel Norcross, and TMS statistician Phil Long in Navi Mumbai for reaction to India winning the 2025 Women’s World Cup.Hear the thoughts of India captain Harmanpreet Kaur, Smriti Mandhana, Amanjot Kaur, and losing captain Laura Wolvaardt.Plus, journalists Firdose Moonda and Zenia D’cunha discuss the wider impact of just how big the World Cup has been in India.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge. Perfect for the ultimate defender. The high-performance Defender Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D dynamics air suspension. Learn more at landrover.ca. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Here is Deepty Sharma.

Bowls, it's been smashed in the air. Can a field again underneath it? Huge moment. Catch is taken. At the third attempt that Laura Wolfheart has been caught in Teepin'Wicked, and that could be the moment. Deepty in again. This is sliced in the air.

Could be a catch. Yes. It's taken by the captain. Harmon Precourt takes the catch that sees India win the world. Cup. Listen to the noise around Nabi Mumbai. Look at the scenes. It's gone midnight, but this party will be going on until the early hours. Fireworks, flags, noise, color everywhere you look, because India have won. India have gone over the line. And India, at long, long last, have won the World Cup.

Cup winner Alex Hartley, Indian cricket ball, broadcaster, Prakashwakankar, alongside me as we see these incredible scenes at the D.Y. Patel Stadium with India, world champions, South Africa cannot be forgotten in this narrative. They have more than played their part. Laura Wolfheart with another hundred, but the night belongs to India. It certainly does, and that moment where Herman Preet put the ball into her trouser pocket It reminds me of the reality of the 25th of June 1983. Remember, it was Michael Holding who was out leg before to Mohindra Ammanath. The ball squirted away to Sunil Gaviska.

He put the ball in his pocket and has kept it with him ever since. I suspect it's going to be impossible to get that ball out of Harman Preet's hands. But just think about this. This is going to be as big an event in Indian sport, in Indian cricket and Indian life, I would say, as any before. because this is a landmark movement for Indian women's cricket. All those women who struggled to even get an India jersey to get official recognition from the BCCI

and everyone who's come after that, they're all going to be thinking this is their win. And it is the right thing to happen. It's happened at home in a tournament where till about 10 days ago, there were questions about whether India will make the semifinal. The journey has not been simple in this tournament and well beyond. But when you finally cross that landmark and reach that moment

Well, what a moment it is to win by 52 runs. Well, the margin of victory perhaps greater than it looked like it was going to be certain points in that run chase. It looked as though South Africa were well in line But they just couldn't keep that momentum going and in the end it is India Who have done it and they can't quite believe it. You can see that in some of the faces out there and some of the expressions. And right now, as we see Roit Sharma shown on the big screen, somebody that two years ago in Arminabad was heartbroken. He could not look happier to see the women's side do what his team couldn't do, but the night's not about anyone but this group of girls and the group of girls that will be inspired across this nation

to pick up a bat and ball knowing that they can emulate their heroes and it does go deeper. We've spoken about it, all tournament, Prakash. This is not like England or Australia winning a World Cup. India winning a World Cup will have reverberations for women's sport

and women across this nation. Oh, without question. I think around the world you'll see that. You'll see a lot more excitement. Well, here's Cassnado. With Aminjokko. I know you're emotional, but do you realize

how important that moment was. Everyone playing knew how important that catch was. I have, I guess, from the first time ever in my life, glad I got the second chance to take that catch. That's all. I don't have words to express. You are a world champion, Amunjord. It's been such a recovery from where you were

to where you are in a year. What does this mean to you? This means a lot. You can see the crowd sharing all around. We have created history. and this is just starting Indian cricket is going to be at next level. We are going to dominate all over the world in every format. Your family has supported you.

They have made so many sacrifices. What's your message to your family? Everyone is watching around India and around the world. Congrats to everyone around here, my family, my coaches. Everyone has their family here, my sitting at home and watching because my grandma is not well. but glad we could do it where it mattered the most what an incredible crowd

here, Diwai Patil with so many watching around India this support has really taken your team across the line here at the World Cup I think it's their victory as well because they came in huge numbers to support us. Thank you Mumbai this is for you

this is for everyone, this is for Pratika who missed our duty injury I know how it feels when you have to miss out a match judder injury and I just have said not everything is good but there's good in everything. So

I'm very grateful. We will bring you more reactions as we go through the next little while as the stage is being set up and these players out there are continuing to celebrate. It's extraordinary scenes out there and what a moment that was between Harman Preak

Kor and Smitty Mandana as well as the dancing begins out there in the middle Alex. It's been amazing. Absolutely amazing. What a game. I'm just so thankful we had such a good game of cricket to finish this World Cup at first this morning we thought is it going to rain is it going to go into tomorrow but

the rain fell for a couple of hours we got a full game in and you can just see how much it means to the Indian girls out there Harmon Preet Court was hugging Smitty Mandana for at least four and a half five minutes they wouldn't let each other go a really wholesome moment those girls they'll remember this for a lifetime

a home World Cup, a packed out stadium, millions, billions of people watching around the world and in this country, exceptional. It's a phenomenal effort by this team, by the management, and indeed it is going to be something that will be talked about for a long time to come. Dare I say it, Daniel, Norcross, who joins us and been with us throughout the tournament, you're a cricket romantic, and where does the cricket romantic

see what we can see out before us? Basically, tears just come flooding to your eyes, don't they? I mean, just the reaction to Prakash here in the box, apart from anything else, the reaction of the women themselves, the sheer delight. And how do you, people often say, how do you script that? Well, you can script it, but Dipti Sharma taking a fifth wicket, and it's caught by the captain to finish a journey that those two players have been on together for so long in front of a home crowd that's going utterly berserk.

It's lovely, it's wonderful, it's fairy tale for them And it was a much more tense game As you said than that 52 run suggested It all happened in the blink of an eye really In the last 25 minutes There was nerves, people were getting a bit shredded Catchers were being dropped There were occasional moments of poor fielding

And it was all because of the pressure Prakash mentioned it time and time again He said look at what the pressure's doing to them And you can understand why there's that pressure When you see how much it meant to them to win It doesn't, there's no pressure if you don't care. My word, they did. They did, but they delivered.

And they delivered not having gone the easy route. They lost three matches. They also beat Australia. And your side did that as well, Alex, on your way to glory in 2017. And for any team in women's cricket, if you can do that as part of the journey to winning a trophy, it does rather underline the fact that you've earned it. Yeah, absolutely. any team that beats Australia

deserves to win a World Cup final but it doesn't mean to say that you are going to win a World Cup final they had to have a good game today they had to have a team performance and ultimately it was a whole team performance from India today Deep Tshama was absolutely fantastic I mean for me she's the player of the tournament

and she stands up time and time again but yeah Australia will be devastated that they lost in the way that they did but it was a remarkable chase in that semi-final from India and they absolutely deserved it. I have no doubt that the games that they lost in the group stage

helped them when they were under pressure in that semi-final. Just a word on the captain because sometimes we've been a little bit critical of Harman Preet, you know, felt perhaps during the T20 World Cup that team spirit wasn't quite what it might have been that perhaps sometimes her demeanour on the outfield

wasn't helping and we saw when Spritty took over there was a bit more of a smile on the faces of the players they seem to be a bit more engaged. Let's remember that I would say that the turning point of this game was when Shafali Verma came on to bowl. None of us were expecting that. That was the captain's call, and she picked up two wickets, and they were crucial wickets.

At that stage, Sinhalese and Laura Wolfhardt were managing the chase quite magnificently. She came on, it's so the seed of doubt. The South Africans had not planned for what you do if Shafali Verma comes on. and immediately Soon they lose chips back an ineffectual little lob back to Shefalia and then next over she gets out

Marizanne Cat I know it's a strangle down the leg side but doesn't matter It's a wicket, isn't it? Great generals have to be lucky sometimes and Harman Preet today was maybe a bit lucky but she was also inspired

and it's just brilliant for her because it's almost certainly her last well 50 over game you might think certainly it's her last World Cup she's been at the helm for solo Long and for it to culminate

in this moment is just lovely Phil Long, our statistician a performance I want to pick out Deep Dishama today and across the tournament. Yeah, rightly so to pick out Deep Tashama let's remind you of her figures today 9.3 overs, no maidens.

Five for 39th. The second best bowling in a final. Don't forget, she scored 50 in the first innings as well to go with that. She finishes the tournament with 22 wickets, only Lynn Fulston in 1982 took more wickets in one World Cup competition. It's the most

by an Indian in a World Cup first person to score a FIFA and 50 in a World Cup final. Yeah, Dicti Sharma. What a player. What a player. I still wonder if Shafali ought to be player of the match, but it'll be Dikti, wouldn't it? But Shafali top scored, because let's not forget her journey either. She wasn't

in the squad. I think the really important thing about that is Shafali Verma coming into the squad, but the captain and the vice captain wanted her there. It was the management and the coach that didn't want her there. So how good from, I guess, that little group of three players, if you're talking Sheffali, Harmon Preet and Stramidt and Smitty Mandana, to go, right, you're in, do it, prove everybody wrong,

and she's done absolutely that. Yeah, Sheffali Verme, as you mentioned, two for 36 from seven. That was a bonus, because she made 87 in the Indian innings. That 87 came off 78 balls. That's the most by an Indian woman in a World Cup final. Phil, Laura Walthart's numbers, most runs from any woman in a World Cup. Yeah, Laura Walford and then 571 runs in this World Cup. Clearly more, we thought, you know, she needed 40 today to go past Elisa Healy.

She did that. 571 runs in this competition. She's now the second highest scoring in all World Cups. She's got herself up to 1,328 World Cup runs. Debbie Hockley-Toppel at this, 1,501. She'll be in a science for the next World Cup. Yeah, extraordinary. Phil, thank you very much for the time being, and Prakashu Kanker will join us once again. But in the most enormous stage is being set up with the word champions out there being unfurled.

And it still says on the big screen, India Champions 2025. Daniel, what have you spotted? I'm just looking at this crowd. No one's left. It's short of past 12, and no one is going anywhere. And I mean, look, we went in and saw the crowd. And some of the crowd are really very, very young indeed. and they're going to be up until 2, 3 o'clock this morning.

That doesn't matter, does it? No, the adrenaline will be coursing through the veins, all of them, won't it? Going straight to Marine Drive. Yeah, that's a fair distance. There'll be a bus tour tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah, tell you what, well, it's going to be some party that much is for sure. Right, let's hear from one of the stars on the India side.

Here's Smriti Mandana. You are a world champion. How does that sound? Well, I mean, I don't know how do I react to that. still sinking in. As you said, I haven't been emotional on a cricket field, but yeah, I mean, just a very unreal moment, home World Cup and yeah, I mean, just to read the champions in there, I mean, I'm still not able to process it. There is the essence of this moment. This is cricket's history that has secured the future

of women's cricket for decades to follow. The macro picture of this World Cup win, what does that mean to you, Smithy Mandana, you've been trying this for over a decade? I mean, you know, every World Cup we go in and there have been so many heartbreaks for all of us. But, yeah, I mean, we always believe that we have a bigger responsibility with women's cricket and genuinely just to see the support we've got over the last one and a half month and to see people come in, support us. I mean, I don't know how do I explain the last 40 days, but yeah, I mean, to end it with the World Cup win today. I mean, I will take that 45 days of not sleeping every night.

But just quickly tell me, after the exit from the 24th E20 World Cup when we didn't even qualify for the knockouts, you told me you'd had a very honest conversation with yourself. What was different as part of the campaign? What did the team do differently to make sure this time the result went India's way as well? Yeah, I mean, the last T20 World Cup for sure was a difficult one for all of us to take. But yeah, I mean, we had a clear focus on really trying to work on our fitness, trying to be better at each and every aspect. But, I mean, the super strength of this team is no one will talk about it,

but it's the way everyone's just stuck in and just play for each other. I mean, that's a very under, I mean, I don't know, in a World Cup like this, you just need everyone's support. Everyone was there for each other, good days, bad days. We enjoyed each other's success. I mean, I just can't tell you the way the team environment is, and I think that's really magic. Thoughts there, Smitty Mandar, chatting to chat in Sapru,

with India, World. champions here at Navi Mumbai it's gone well past midnight but the party just beginning nobody has left their seats South Africa it'll be devastating for them for the third time in in less than three years they've reached the final of a World Cup but not got over the line however their time at some point in the future maybe not with this generation but it will come and they have shown more than enough to demonstrate quite how strong a side they are. And Alex, you just sense that at some point they will get that chance.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. To get to three World Cup finals in a row, we've always spoken about India and it's not if, it's when. Well, today is there when. You feel like South Africa are getting closer and closer. You know, in the Dubai World Cup, they probably should have won that and felt that heartbreak. But if I'm being honest, going into today, India with a better side. We'll get the thoughts

of both captains Laura Wolfhardt shortly but first here's the winning skipper, Harmon Preetko. I'm so grateful for this crowd. They've been so amazing. Thank you, thank you guys

for being there for us. For in all our ups and down and credit goes to our cricket team, BCCI, selectors, everyone back home. Thank you. Thank you so much.

It's got to be one of the greatest bouncebacks in women's World Cup history because you lose three on the trot against teams that finished above you. How did you speak to the team about just staying in the hunt for this moment? Yeah, last game also we spoke that self-belief was there that, you know, even though we lost three back-to-back games, but we knew this team has something special

to turn things around the table. So I think credit goes to each and every member. They stay positive. They knew what we have to do in the next three games. And I think everybody was so involved. They were there for day and night. I think this team deserved to be there. I think the script writers are already starting the Bollywood movie

and I'm going to figure out who's going to play you in it, but also who's going to play Shafali Verma? Because we all sat there in the commentary box and went, what's happening here, not with the bat, but with the ball. When did that plan be hatched and when did you think, right, we're going to play with it? Yeah, I mean, when Laura and Suna was batting, they were looking really good. And I just saw Shufali standing there.

and the way she was batting today, I knew today's her day. She was showing something special today, and I just thought I have to go with my gut feeling. If my heart is saying I should give at least one over to her, I'm going to give her. And then I just asked her, can you ball one over? And she was so ready, and she's always wanted to ball for the team. And I think that was a turning point for us. She's only bowled 14 overs before tonight.

Did you look at the coach and sort of not look at him a little bit, just wondering what he was going to say? Well, when she came to the team, that time we spoke to her. we might need your two or three overs and she was like, no, if you give me the bowling, I'm going to ball 10 overs for the team. And that showed how confident she was to ball for the team. And I think credit goes to her. She was so positive.

She was there for the team. And salute her the way, you know, she was there for the team. 298 after the semifinal against Australia, did you think maybe not enough at one stage? No, actually, today's pitch was totally different because of the rain and overhead conditions. We knew this total is enough for the final game because in the final game you always have a little extra pressure on you

but still we should give credit to the South Rica team. They bet it beautifully. The last moment they panicked a little bit and that's where we catch the game and I think as a group we have been talking about once they started doing a little bit something here and there we have to catch that and I think that right time Dipti came and took those crucial wicket had the pleasure of sitting in the commentary box and the cameras would pan to people in the crowd

so the very first team for India in a World Cup was back in 1978 it's been a long journey from then you played in 2009 the team made it in 2005 and it was a bit of a rocky road 2017 it was heartbreak likewise in 2022 it's part of this win

I know it's for this squad and your support stuff but I think a lot is also for the players that have come before you yeah definitely every time after every World Cup we came as a team and we're always discussing what we have to do to part that, you know, that line. And this time, last two years, Moulser was there with the team and he was, you know, always telling us that this is not something, you know, this team is expecting from you guys. You have to come up with something special and, you know, you have to keep preparing yourself

for the bigger occasion. And I think we should give credit to our sports staff and BCCI for showing trust on us. And, you know, this team was there for last two years. Yes, we didn't make so many changes. I think that shows they really invested in us. And today, I think because of everyone, we were standing here. The phrase has often been used about the Indian women's cricket team, that they're the sleeping giant of world cricket. Well, you've well and truly woken up now.

Is this just the start? Is this the start of a destiny? Yes, definitely. This is a start. We wanted to break this barrier. And now our next plan is make this habit. Because, you know, we are waiting for this movement. Now this movement has come.

Now let's just making this habit, you know, next year also World Cup and then champion trophy is there. So many big occasions are coming. We just want to keep improving every day by day. This is not a end. This is just a beginning and we just want to keep giving our best. Laura, this is a tough one. I know this. And it's probably a little bit harder than most.

But when I look at that group behind us at the moment, words like grit, determination, team, resilience, all sort of spring to mind. What springs to mind for you, for this group, and the campaign? Yeah, all of those words. I think I couldn't be prouder of this team for the campaign that we've had. I played some brilliant cricket throughout. I'll play today. I think India played fantastically well. Yeah, unfortunate to be on the losing side,

but I'm sure we'll definitely grow from this as a group. Let's talk tournament first, because I think if you said to most people, if you lost and were bowed out for 69 in the first game against England and then you bowed out for 97 against Australia, most teams who have almost dropped their bundle, you consistently went with the Mantua clear and present right throughout this World Cup and it works so well for you to get through to the final.

Yeah, I think we did so well to put those couple of bad games behind us. We're either really good or really bad, but thankfully there was a lot more really good throughout this tournament. Yeah, I think we had so many different players stepping up. Amazing tournament for a lot of different players and just proud of the resilience we showed to get all the way to the final. I think a lot of people sort of forget you're a new captain into this side. But I can remember reading that you said that you wanted to make sure that it wasn't going to affect your batting.

Well, it certainly hasn't. You've got the most runs for a captain in a World Cup surpassing Belinda Clark. How did you get that balance right, still knowing that you had to lead this group? Yeah, probably didn't have my best year leading into this World Cup and probably didn't start the tournament that well. But I think maybe overthinking it wasn't that good. Just try to, you know, it's just another game of cricket, even though you're at a World Cup. try to separate the two, the captaincy and the batting.

And I think that sort of freed me up a bit, come the back end of the tournament, to just play my natural game and then focus on the captaincy at a different time. Let's get today's game. You win the toss. You elect to have a bad person. It felt as if there's probably not as much swing

for Madalzan cap in that first couple of overs. Yeah, we were hoping for a little bit more early on. I think there was still a little bit of something in the wicket, though. So I do still think it was the right call to have a ball. And, yeah, that chase, I think we were in it for, for a lot of the chase, just lost too many wickets. Mlaba, Kaka, Nadine de Kloak really pegged things back at the back of that innings too because it looked at one stage, Indy was sort of pushing up to that 350 plus mark.

I think the last 16 overs, they didn't go for double figures at all. Yeah, that was brilliant. I kept checking that scoreboard and they were definitely tracking for like a 350. So, yeah, that back end was amazing. I think we've been pretty good at that throughout the tournament. And I think we gave ourselves a good chance. I think 300 was about par and a good wicket, and we really felt that we could chase it

and you probably wouldn't have put too much thought into Shevali Firmer at the start of the tournament and then it would have been a little bit of scrambling coming into this match. Definitely her bowling. But yeah, I think she batted excellently. That's kind of the way she plays really aggressive and when it comes off like today

she can really hurt teams. Yeah, I think she batted really well. There's a saying that the hole is greater than the sum of the parts which I think is pretty much what you would say about this group. I do want to single out one person though, because she's a bit of an enigma in your side. She is fire and ice a little bit half the time.

Matazan Cap, she's in her fifth World Cup. We might not see her back here on this stage. Again, what does she mean to South African cricket? Because she's ridden the highs and lows. Yeah, she's been absolutely phenomenal for so many additions at this tournament. Really sad that it's possibly a last one. I think the whole group really wanted to win it for her. But yeah, I think she's been so great for South African cricket.

She's sort of two players in one, and we're very lucky that she's on our team. Well, you guys have been absolutely wonderful for women's cricket this tournament. Commiserations today, but congratulations at a wonderful tournament. Thank you so much. Thanks, Laura. It's an incredible story, the Shafali Verma tale, Daniel. Well, it is, because we first encountered there as this prodigy. We couldn't quite believe we were seeing our eyes.

She was hitting the ball harder, cleaner than anybody we'd ever seen. Certainly somebody at that age. She was driving veterans like Catherine Siverbrunt completely berserk when India came to play in England. She was 16 when she burst onto the scene. We thought we were going to see her just being around forever. But then, of course, there's quite a production line of good young players coming through in India these days. And Pratika Rewal just showed, I guess, more consistency.

She was building great partnerships with Sreeti Mandana. And as a result, she wasn't in the squad. She wasn't in the starting 11. She got a chance because of that unfortunate injury. And she's ended up player of the match. It might be quite a contentious decision. But for me, she top scored. She gave India's innings their momentum

And she took those two wickets at a really crucial moment If you want to talk about impact of a player In a World Cup final Dipsy's figures look great But she cleaned up a little bit at the back end But like Anya Shobso did in your World Cup final When she picked up six The only person to take more wickets in a World Cup final

But Shafali was the one Who turned the game really With the ball and such an unlikely thing to do And bold so magnificently well Just a word though on South Africa You know, we're all thinking that this will inevitably result in a win at some point for South Africa. Well, Laura Wolfheart will still be around. But the concerns I have is that some of those players are getting a bit long in the tooth.

We're not going to see much more of Marizan Cap, you wouldn't think. Ayabonga Kaka has been around for quite a long time. And it's a side that it's not old, but it's aging. And so the fear is that this was a really important moment for them. And will being a losing finalist again be enough to create the interest and put the money into the game? We said before this game we thought that actually the consequences for a nation might be greater for South Africa than they would be for India. It's all moot now because we know what the result is. But I do feel for Laura Wolfart when you've performed like that,

and you've had two such brilliant innings and knockout games. And to come out on the losing side must be a very bitter pill to swallow. and for Marizanne Cap who this will be her last World Cup game and she's going to end in as the leading wicket-taker in World Cups she's been such an important player for them for years and in their campaign here so yeah there's a lot to digest isn't there but at the moment I think we have to park South Africa

and what it means for them because tonight's going to be all about India the game finished at exactly midnight and I dare say there will be puns galore around that but the party is not going to end I'm not sure it's going to end. Ever, until the next World Cup. I don't think it'll still be going, but we leave on our flight on Tuesday. It's brilliant to watch.

And the crowd is still here. They're all really much all still here. They just want to soak up every single last moment of this. I want to see that trophy get lifted. And I think we're going to see a fair few tears. Tell us what will the reaction be like over the next few days? I think, first of all, all the newspapers and TV channels are going to have a huge amount of content. I won't be surprised if tomorrow's papers weigh a few grams more than they normally do.

Today's was sort of the build-up to it. But I just think, frankly, Henry, that this is something that is a... I think it was Dan who said, who writes these scripts. It's, in a way, apt that in the city of Mumbai, the home of Bollywood, this whole theory or this whole script of India winning a home World Cup for the first time in the women's game, now emulating and hopefully going ahead of the men doing it first time at home in 2011, 14 years ago in this city, albeit at a different stadium and a few fair kilometers away from Marine Drive.

But this is going to be massive, massive in every single way, whether it's resources, sponsorships, more people coming out to play, the BCCI putting more funds and resources behind it. And I think the inspiration, the belief that you can do it. Ten of these 11 girls who played today have not played in a World Cup final ever. Well, there was only three of them that played in the 2017 World Cup final. It was Deepi, Smriti Mandana and Harmanpreak call the captain. It's something that's really remarkable.

And I dare say that I was there in 2011 when the men won the World Cup at home. I am going to make this statement because I mean it, Henry. This is so much bigger in so many different ways. because for these girls and for women in general, this is going to be phenomenal. Well played Harman Preet and well played South Africa. We had a fitting finale to a tournament that had it ups and downs, but in the end has delivered.

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. What a thrilling few days it has been building up to this final with some extraordinary coverage of this Women's World Cup. that has really been led, hasn't it, by the fact that India have made it through to the final. We're going to talk a little bit about what the impact has been, not just here in India, but in South Africa as well. I'm very pleased to say, joining me here in the commercial box is Zinia de Cunia from ESPN India, who, lovely to see you, has been watching on downstairs in the media centre,

which is absolutely heaving full of people, and what a few days it's been. fantastic. I think the very fact that India is in the final as host was very, very important for the game in India specifically, but what this does is it gets this visibility which would not have been the last time India was in the final because that was England, right? So Home World Cup finals absolutely important and you can see it with the crowd with the crowded media box. It's amazing. It really is. And somebody who's a very familiar voice to listeners on Test Match special, part of our coverage across multiple women's tournaments and wonderful to be joined from

South Africa by Ferdas Munda and Ferdas, I know you'd love to be here and watching South Africa in action, but what have you made of the tournament from afar and the impact that it's had? Hi, Henry. Hyzenia, thanks for having me on. Yeah, it's been

really great. You know, one of the advantages of being at home is that you end up watching and covering pretty much every game, which is what I've done. And I've seen a huge amount of progression, you know, teams like Bangladesh so close to beating English. for example. Pakistan is so close to beating England, for example. I feel like I'm going to say that a lot. But those two teams vastly improved Sri Lanka came pretty close to a semi-final

spot. And to have a World Cup final without either England or Australia, I think is wonderful for the women's game. It means that we are getting teams who are getting better and better. And South Africa, they've only been professional for 12 years. So it's really not a long time. And in those 12 years, they've made three World Cup semifinals across T20 and 50 over formats and three World Cup final. So, you know, the trophy's not there yet, but they've really been progressing and taking it one step further each time. I think the tournament's been great. I wish the weather had been slightly better. And obviously today also, you had a little bit of a delay on your side. But, you know, from what I'm seeing from afar, it looks like people are really into it. The

crowd is wonderful, very partisan, of course. But it looks like it's been a real party. I think that's the thing, isn't it? And when you do get the hosts in the final, it just adds something different, doesn't it? And we saw that. In 2020, with the amazing Katie Perry performance at the MCG. We saw it in 2017 when Alex's side won at Lords in front of a full house. It makes a difference, and it does provide the opportunity for the game to grow in a way that otherwise it perhaps wouldn't. Absolutely. Visibility is so important.

So I spent some time with the crowd. Just wanted to go to the stands and track. And one of the most amazing things I've found is the gender balance, which is not a very common sight in. Indian cricket stadiums who do have more men than women, but the demographics are fantastic. The second thing I really liked is watching, is seeing men wear Smithi jerseys. There's even an ad about it in India about how, you know, men are a little apprehensive to wear jerseys with the name of female cricketers and that strange. You can see that in the crowd here.

So that sort of visibility in, by just reaching the final and in the manner with which they got there, I think that's fantastic and that crowd is proof. And that's the thing as well, isn't it, Vodos? it does sort of extend in ways that perhaps you wouldn't necessarily realize. And it's just kind of attitudinal changes as much as anything. Are we seeing that in South Africa with the success of this side? Yeah, definitely. Look, I think South Africa, it's various things that are bringing young girls to sport

where, you know, maybe 10 years ago, 15 years ago, that wasn't the case. And that's that across the sporting codes, you've got South African women's teams doing amazing things. The football team are former continental champions. the rugby team reached the knockouts of the World Cup and that was the first time that they'd done that. So we've generally, you know, South Africa's a country with the tradition of sports-loving people

and generally punching above their weight when it comes to World Cups or Olympic Games or things like that. I think for me what's also been interesting is I've chatted to some of the subcontinental captains Fatima Sanna and Niga-Sultana Jati who say that obviously in their cultures it can be very difficult for girls to get the support of their parents or to get the support of their communities

to go and play. But Fatima Sanna is one example where both parents were very, very supportive of her cricketing journey. And I think we're starting to see that happen. It's a viable career option, somebody like South African left arm spin and non-culelekeum Raba who's out there with you in Navi, you know, she's earning a living and also helping to support her family, her family who are living in a township in South Africa, which is a high-density area for previously disadvantaged South Africans. And it's a viable career option now, which I think is also drawing women and girls to it. What I've enjoyed seeing is, as Zinia was saying, not just the men in Smitimandan shirts, but the young boys in the crowd with their banners. And it just shows

that excellence can be role-modelled no matter the gender and that a young boy can look at a Laura Wolfhard and think, wow, I want to drive the ball like that. So it's so wonderful to see the game grow in this way. And I think, you know, having it in India is really going to change things. Would you agree with that? Do you think that that that's, that's a lot of the game. It's a sort of thing that could have a really significant impact. Regardless of who wins this final, it's just the acceptance that it's a viable career option for young girls as chasing their dreams to be athletes and not just cricketers,

but athletes more generally. Absolutely. I think the 2017 World Cup final, even that, in the manner with which India reached the final made a difference. You could see there's more coverage, there's more interest. And with this happening at home and with a couple more finals, since then, these things all add up. And career-wise, I mean, there are always entry-level barriers for women in sport. And what are those?

As Firdos was talking about, right, parents are not always supportive because it can, you know, it's not a very secure career option, isn't it? And also academics and the academic pressure always comes in. Smyrithy Mandana once had to like choose between her 10th board exams or her 12th board exams. and playing cricket and I'm very glad she too is cricket. I think she made the right call. Yeah, absolutely. But, yeah, so there are a lot of things which would stop them,

but that's also changing. There are lots of, you know, men and women who want their children to play a spot, but usually it was one, their sons to play a spot. Now they're okay with their daughter was playing spot because the system is building, there's visibility, there's information, there's awareness. These things change, and, you know, the fact that something like a WPL makes, you know, it gives you a backup option, It's just not the national team and the system that you come through your state teams.

You have WPR. You have leagues across. And, you know, there are a lot of state leagues coming through where both men and women can now play T20. So these kind of things, they build an ecosystem where financial viability and a future security is part of it now. For those, how much credit do you think someone like Jay Shah, who has been head of the BCCI and is now head of the ICC,CC, deserves for this growth of the women's game? because, you know, inevitably people in high administrative roles get a lot of criticism when things don't go well. But the growth of the women's game in India in the last few years has been dramatic. Yeah, I think, Henry, if we're looking at where credit should be given,

it's in the increased economic opportunities, which I think only comes from somebody in power going and negotiating with the people that need negotiating with. So huge prize money, for example, at this World Cup, I think it's double what it was previously. and we've also seen big money at something like the WPL auction. But I think in general it's boards around the world who are also buying into the idea of professionalism. So South Africa, as an example, which is a developing economy, we pay equal match fees, men and women. So the contract values are not the same, but match fees are the same. And our women also play two, three test matches a year, unlike New Zealand's women who don't play tests at all. So it's interesting to see boards getting on board, sponsors getting on board.

South Africa were only able to contract players for the first time when they had. sponsorship from a financial services company. And I think it's also about understanding that women make up 50% or there and thereabouts of most populations. And if you're going to grow the sport, you've got to go in the direction of everybody, right? It's almost similar to me to when we talk about transformation in South Africa. And for a long time, the argument was, oh, but people of color don't have a history of cricket, which is incorrect. But it's 80% of our population. If you want to grow the sport, you've got to be reaching out there. The same with growing women's sport, I think. in terms of getting visibility of cricket out there, you know, I remember 2017 World Cup

was the first time the South African woman had played on television. Now all their games are televised. So that is coming from, I guess, ICC level and the people in charge. But I think the boards around the world also deserve some credit for the way that they are trying to step in. Yeah. And that's, you know, a huge shift, isn't it, in terms of where boards are looking at the opportunities. Let's not, let's be perfectly honest, it's not always entirely selfless because they'll be seeing the financial opportunities for commercial deals, because women's sport is commercially incredibly viable, full of potential, and there could be an awful lot of money to be made. I mean, look at this scene in front of us where we've got a packed stadium, fireworks

everywhere you look, and one of India's biggest stars performing the halftime show. you know it's the potential is vast absolutely so to bring you back a few years when women's games were happening around there's usually free ticketing you know you can enter you can just register and enter there's no cost so you're trying to bring people you're trying to attract more people then comes things like wPL there comes television deals media rights IPL teams come in there's merchandising there's sponsorship there are so many things that are happening and while the normal you know the World Cup has nominal fees I'm sure that that free ticket barrier is also going to

go over very soon in Indian women's cricket. I think we're going to be able to fill in stands in various cities. I think this World Cup has proven that people are interested. It's not just a free event anymore. People want to watch the women's game. And that economic opportunity is always key. Otherwise, whether it's cricket, whether it's any aspect of life, you need to be able to make money.

And women's cricket is making money now. Yeah. And the more that is invested into it is such a, in so many ways, is a fail-safe investment because you know that high-level good-quality sport is going to see a return on the investment because it's going to look good on television. People are going to want to watch it. And it is ultimately going to be something that boards can make money from going back

to 2023 and the World Cup in South Africa that had that amazing final, not least because of the moment, I suppose, in the final and ahead of the final and everything else in Cape Town. what's been the impact in terms of the recognition of the South African women's side since there? It's been pretty good. I think probably the best thing that came after that 2023 World Cup was the professionalization of our women's domestic competition. So we have six provincial teams, which we could have more, but I think they've done well to limit it to those six teams. And they are now contracting 66 female players in the domestic system and then the 16 nationally contracted players.

So there are, you know, 80 odd people making a living. off cricket in South Africa who are female, and that's been brilliant. I think the other thing that's been really important is you'll remember that 2003 World Cup was also the first season of our SA20, which is South Africa's franchise T20 competition. And the SA20 runs a Schools League, and that runs with girls and boys' schools, as well as with co-ed schools. And the Schools League has been hugely successful, especially among the girls' schools.

It's brought through someone like Karabamehoso, who's the Wicked Keeper on tour at the World Cup. She played a couple of games there. She's just 18 years old. And Karabu Meza was the leading run scorer in the most recent version of the SA schools competition. So what you're seeing is that the development is really happening. A lot of our men's cricketers come from elite men's schools. That's the thing with South Africa. We have excellent schools and they produce loads of cricketers.

Women is slightly different. We produce them through academies, mini-cricot programs, but now this SA-20 schools program. So the legacy is twofold. It came from the World Cup. It came from the franchise tournament. And we're seeing more and more girls playing cricket and interested in cricket. And what about general sporting public interest in terms of, you know, TV audience numbers, people through the gate to watch the games? Yeah, look, South Africa is a sports-loving country and it's one of the things that really bring the nation together.

So there is huge interest. Of course, having cricket only on the paid television subscription channel is difficult. But today, for example, for the final, it's been made available to everybody on that subscription, no matter what level your subscription is. Okay, you still got to have one, I guess. It's not on free to air. but we are seeing good crowds come in when the women play and we're a hype nation right we've had a great year in sport a great probably two and a half years and we've managed to hype the country up spectacularly for this so there's a couple of watch parties going on today it's a Sunday afternoon it's a beautiful summer Sunday afternoon here in South Africa and people are really really into it very importantly the people who are into cricket women's cricket in South Africa it's diverse we've got all the race groups we've got gender age and and that to me is really wonderful because I would A woman's team has always been so representative. They represent the full socio-economic spectrum of South Africa,

and that's who you're seeing supporting them. Yeah, and that is really interesting, isn't it? The fact that it isn't just your typical sporting audience. What about the scene around India this evening? What will your typical cricket-loving public be doing? Will they be crowding around the televisions in the way they would do for a big IPL match? I'm 100% sure they are. You know, you get these broadcast numbers when the match is live on the streaming service

and you can see the counter go up. I think against Australia, the semi-final, it was a huge number. I was watching from here, but I know there were like crores of people tuned in and I got reports from home saying that suddenly there are firecrackers and it's post-Divali via the firecrackers and it had to be like India are in the final of the World Cup. So I think those firecrackers are very indicative of Indian cricket fans happiness. Every big victory there are firecrackers, irrespective of the time of year.

And, well, it's a very cultural thing, but you know, if Mumbai is bursting firecrackers for the women's team reaching the final, you know that there is a level of fandom that the team has reached now. My thanks to Fados and Zen, yeah, thanks to Alex Hartley, Fionn, Wynne, Prakash Makankar, Daniel Norcross and Phil Long, as well as every other commentator who's made this World Cup. Such an incredible few words. weeks. That's it for the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode. Focus now, of course, switches to the men's ashes in Australia. Test match special will be bringing you coverage of that every ball of it live from Down Under starting on 21st of November. Daily

podcast throughout the whole series too. You don't want to miss any of it. But from a bouncing Navi Mumbai, it's goodbye. Welcome to The Team Behind the Team, a new podcast series in partnership with the Open University, where we'll be showcasing the people, the tools and the techniques that help athletes and teams reach elite level. Like all elite sports, it's a pyramid and everybody's trying to get to the top. It's not just my vision. It's a shared vision amongst the team. What is this? This is not the way I see the game.

The team behind the team with Katie Smith. In partnership with the Open University. Listen on BBC Sound.