The Blindboy Podcast - A Spike Lee Joint full of boldy

Episode Date: August 21, 2018

I go to London and Interview Spike Lee. We have craic Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, you gentle pendergrasts, or prendergast, how would you pronounce that fucking name? Welcome to the Blind Boy Podcast, I believe it's, are we 46? Week 46? I don't know if you can hear the difference in fidelity or the sound this week. in fidelity or the sound this week. I'm not in my studio. I am... I'm in a very, very fancy hotel room in the middle of London, in Soho.

I'm in the Soho area of London, an area I know well. And I'm over here because I was interviewing the absolutely wonderful, magnificent director Spike Lee. And I'll be playing you that interview in a while. And if you don't know who Spike Lee is, Spike Lee is an African American director. He'd be one of my fucking heroes because the man is a genius. Like, he's be, one of my fucking heroes, because the man is a genius, like,

he's an auteur, in that, one of these directors, whereby, he just, his voice and authority, he's like a novelist, you know,

his voice and authority, takes supreme, over all other aspects, of the film, cinematography, is fucking class storytelling is class, the whole shebang if you're not versed in Spike Lee's films, I would

recommend, you know immediately watch Do The Right Thing Clockers Crooklyn Summer Of Sam you know incredible films

even like just to show you how much I adore fucking Spike Lee's work we have a song called Fellas and Fellas is

it features an animatronic puppet of Gabriel Byrne. And a puppeteer. And what I wanted with the video for Fellas, you'll see it on YouTube, is to create a kind of... What the song is about, it's about accepting one's sexuality. But the protagonist in this song and in this video they aren't accepting their sexuality

and instead they act out their they act out their homosexuality through a puppet of Gabriel Byrne but I wanted to create an atmosphere in the video of kind of a creepy not creepy but a seedy, seedy underground kind of

gay club and the cues that I took for that when we were storyboarding the video there's a scene in Spike Lee's Summer of Sam, it's a montage where the song Baba O'Reilly by The Who is playing and Adrian Brody is working in,

he's dancing in like a gay club but against his, he's not gay, he's a straight man and he's doing this thing that he doesn't really want to do, he's uncomfortable in it and he's effectively becoming a male sex worker, nothing wrong with that, but Adrian Brody in the film summer of sam is doing it because he needs money and it's quite depressing because there's

not really consent under duress if you get me so for this scene like spike lee directed this directly took like the lighting cues the mood, the colouring the framing and I put that into the video fellas so that's how much of a fanboy myself and Mr. Chrome are of Spike Lee's work em the

interview that you're about to hear the reason it kind of came about is because Spike is, he's got a film out in the cinemas, and I think it's out on the 24th of August, I could be wrong, it's very soon, I saw it already, but it's called Black Klansman, and it's brilliant, it's genuinely now, and I'm happy to say this, it's his best work in a number of fucking years. It's brilliant. Jordan Peele, who made Get Out, is producing it.

You can kind of see Jordan Peele's influence on it. You can get that flavour, that comic flavour. But it is a Spike Lee film. Or a Spike Lee giant, as he calls it. It's based on a true story, but it's semi-fictional. You know, you can tell that certain facts are embellished for the benefit of entertainment but the one thing

the film will do and this is what makes it art I suppose you know socially engaged art it can like it's the story of a black policeman in the south who successfully infiltrated the Ku Klux Klan. And Topher Grace from that 70s show plays David Duke, the leader of the KKK, plays it fucking brilliantly. But that's what the film is about.

But it's also contextualised in contemporary events. In particular the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville last year that left one person dead. And you will walk away from this film. How I walked away from it anyway with a very constructive anger towards Nazis and white supremacists. Normalize their behavior. By appearing. By appearing acceptable. By appearing to be. Respectable. Do you know.

And this film really. It lets you see the snake in the grass. And you leave with em. A good anger that makes you go. No. I'm not putting up with that. I don't care. If your.

Views are being espoused. In a fucking mainstream newspaper. I don't care if your views are being espoused in a fucking mainstream newspaper. I don't care if you've got a shirt and tie. Your views are racist and I won't stand for it. So that's what the film does. That makes it an incredibly beneficial piece of socially engaged art. Even though there is a bit of, criticism against it, in particular from, is his name Boots Riley,

apologies if I got his name wrong, his first name is Boots, I think it's Boots Riley, but he's also a director, an African American director, he's formerly from the band The Coop, and he had a lot of problems with the Spike Lee film

he felt that it was it wasn't historical enough in representing the actual story he felt that it gave the police a bit of an easy slip it didn't portray the police as being as brutal

as they should be portrayed so that's a valid argument, so anyway, yeah, how did the interview come about, Spike is in London, and he's promoting this fucking film, and,

through some, through some bizarre things, I ended up getting asked, will you interview Spike, for the podcast, so I said I fucking will, and the people who asked me have put me up in a lovely hotel in the middle of Saha, which is great, and that's where I'm recording this podcast, so, I went, I went in to interview Spike, nervouservous as fuck, to be honest. Very fucking nervous because it's Spike Lee, someone I've been looking at. I've been looking at his films since I was about 12.

The reason Spike is so important to me is, as you know from this podcast, I'm incredibly passionate about hip-hop music and hip-hop culture. Not just hip-hop, but pretty all aspects of an African-American culture I'm very passionate about you know and you know I get quite emotional and passionate about art and creativity that's my vibe and I grew up listening to to hip-hop you know when I was a young kid I would have had Ice-T, Public Enemy, Ice Cube. But growing up in fucking Limerick, where, you know, I didn't see... I'd have been listening to Ice-T fucking six years before even knowing what he looked like, you know? I would have had a few liner notes. I didn't even have liner notes, no, I was just given a cassette.

So I just had the music. This, you know, speaking this these alien ghettos of America where and the struggle of that black people face I only had it through audio there was no internet for me to look it up there wasn't really hip hop magazines

hip hop wasn't being shown on television hip hop videos not in the 90s when I was a kid. I didn't have a. All I had was this. This music and these tapes. That was it. Just audio.

But Spike Lee's films. They gave me a visual. A visual and cultural context. For what rappers were speaking about and it was hugely valuable to me and it gave me a nice a good critical eye for rap music at a young age because the thing is with gangster rap is there's a slight performative element to gangster rap where it tends to highlight, in particular something like NWA, to highlight only the negative aspects of urban African American culture. Whereas a Spike Lee film like Clockers, Clockers is about, we'll say gang life in Brooklyn, right? But what Clockers does and what makes it so amazing is the central character in Clockers is a dealer.

He's got an ulcer and he has to drink milk of magnesia all day because it's like the opposite of glamorizing the gangster. It's like, yes, he's a gangster. Yes, he's selling crack. Yes, he walks around with a gun. But the stress of his job is so great that he has a fucking ulcer, like some prick working in a bank, and seeing the humanity of that at a young age, was very important to me in kind of adding a pinch of salt and a cultural context as to why certain gangster rap was the way

it was if you get me also as well last week's podcast was about the origins of hip hop in the Bronx Spike Lee fucking grew up you know through that he's from Brooklyn he was present when

in New York when hip hop was happening and disco was happening so Spike got to speak a little bit on that so yeah I went to Hotel in Soho to interview him where he was doing many many interviews

the past three days he's been here doing non-stop interviews before I went in with my fucking shitty podcast set up Jonathan Ross was in before me interviewing him um my ma who's my ma's in her late 70s my ma got it into her head that I was interviewing Bruce Lee so and she also made me a bunch of, she knew, she thought I was interviewing Bruce Lee, but it doesn't matter. She knew I was interviewing someone who, to me, was a fucking hero, you know. So she got that much, regardless of whether she thinks it's Bruce Lee or Spike Lee.

But she made me a lot of scones, a lot of scones with raisins in them and demanded that demanded that these be given to Bruce Lee so for the first half of the interview with Spike he's chewing on shit that's my mother's scones

so apologies for if that's annoying he enjoyed them so have I anything else to say yeah Black Clansmen go and see it

em fucking great film you won't be disappointed very entertaining and thank you to Spike for doing the interview and

for sponsoring one or two podcasts as well couple of episodes are sponsored by Spike so here is the interview you can't one last thing the interview is it's quite harsh on irish americans and just so you know i'm referring specifically to racist irish americans

um if you are not a racist irish american because there's many irish americans that listen to this podcast fine people if you're not a racist then then when I say Irish-American, it's not about you. This, when I say Irish-American in this, I'm referring to racist fucking assholes who hate black people, but at the same time will talk about the oppression that their grandparents faced in Ireland and drink Guinness and all that performative shit while being shitheads. That's who faced in Ireland. And drink Guinness. And all that performative shit. While being shitheads. That's who that's about.

But if you're a decent fucking Irish American. Who isn't a racist scumbag. Then it's not about you. I just felt the need. I don't want to sully the interview. If you're an Irish American listening. You know. And if you're a racist.

You probably don't listen to the podcast anyway. So you still live in Limerick? I do, yeah. Yeah, and you commute to London? I commute to London, yeah. But with the internet, like, I can do all my work at home. Like, my main thing is this podcast. I record it in Limerick,

and I don't really need to leave, you know, and I like it. Actually, one thing... How long have you been doing your podcast? Only a year. Yeah? Only a year, yeah. And you're a hit now, huh?

It's doing all right, yeah. God bless. Thank you very much. What's your subject matter? Just interesting people or what? No, I mainly... Like, last week, actually, what I did was... Because it was the 45 years of the history of the birth of hip-hop two weeks ago.

What I did a podcast on... In the South Bronx on in the South Bronx in the South Bronx but what I did the podcast on was I was just researching and I found an article in the New York Times

and it was dated in October 1973 and the headline of the article was Landlord Accused of Anti-Black Racism right and it turns out that was Donald Trump when he was 27 yeah so

what i did is i looked at the fact that trump was doing this in brooklyn and queens right and then him and his father him and his dad yeah right but i found a kind of a connection between that and the fact that cool harks parties a lot of them were rent parties. So I was kind of going, Donald Trump and his kind of racist policies could have been a contributing factor to the birth of hip-hop. I wouldn't go that far, sir. Yeah, it's a fucking, it's a reach. It's a reach. That's a big reach.

Yeah. One thing, actually, one thing I'd like to ask you about, because I was looking at New York in the 70s. OK. And in such a small period of time, you have the birth of disco in Greenwich Village coming out of, like we said, the Stonewall riots. Then you've got all the year 77, which I made a film about that year. Summer, summer, fucking Sam. I love it. Yeah. Then you had the blackout the blackout yeah

the birth of punk that would have been was that Hell's Kitchen CBGB's Whereabouts was that yes and then you've got the birth of hip hop

right now that's in the Bronx punk was pointing out yeah in Manhattan lower Manhattan like

New York was in a bad time but that was when New York was was it in debt broke yeah it was in broke right time, but that was when New York was... Was it in debt? Yeah, it was in broke. Right. Can you give your... Why did these three amazing art forms separately at the same time happen in this small area?

What's your read on that? Time. Everything is time. I'm 61 years young, so I couldn't believe that very few things happen by happenstance. So it's just a combustible time. New York City was broke. You had the blackout. Yeah.

The birth of disco. That was summer of 77 was the first summer of disco. You had hip-hop on the rise. You had Summer of Sam, the psychopath that was killing people. It was, that summer was so hot. I mean, it was like,

it was so hot. And, and, and, who knew that later I would make a film about that summer, Summer Sam. But, I think it was Summer of Sam. But, I think it was one of the glorious days,

you know, the glory days of New York City. And here's the thing, between now and back then, young artists, like David Byrne, Madonna, people like that,

young artists, were drawn to New York. Young artists can't afford to come to New York anymore. They got to go to Detroit. You could buy a house for $5 in Detroit. They go to Detroit. They go to Portland. They go to Seattle.

They go to Texas. Where is that? Houston? Not Houston. What's the hipster one. I know the one you're thinking of. South by Southwest is there. Yes.

It's where University of Texas is. I'm blanking on it. Anyway. So I'm like. Hey. And I've always felt that it was the influx of young artists that made New York great, and young artists can't afford to live in New York anymore. It's horrible.

Did you, like, when you were a kid growing up around that, did you get involved in either the disco scene or the hip-hop scene? Did you go to any of these early hip-hop parties? The parties were in the street. Block parties. Literally in the street? In the street. They hook up the turntable,

the speakers to the street lamps, and it's a block party. In fact, this coming Saturday, I'm going to have my 9th annual Brooklyn Loves Michael Jackson Block Party Yeah We've been doing it for 9 years

And we do it for Prince 3 years So a block party That's part of Summertime Put the music out Dance And have fun

So even before Before hip hop was a thing This was happening Like when did it start like hip-hop and block parties same thing they start at the same time when did it start getting um like a name when did something happen to these block parties where you were going something new was happening this this this is a new thing or did you was it even noticeable it was terms it was under the term of hip-hop.

Hip-hop. What is hip-hop? The foundation of hip-hop is graffiti, breakdancing, emceeing, and DJing. Those are the foundations of hip-hop. And hip-hop was born in the South Bronx by Puerto Rican, young black Puerto Rican and black males. So it's amazing that out of this one section of Bronx, predominantly people of color has grown this, who knows how many billion dollar industry. That's all over the world. And back then, those guys were just doing it for fun. No one could dream how much money could be made from back then.

How do you feel about how it has been monetized? Do you feel that has it been monetized? Oh, you know it's been monetized. But I mean, has that money been do you feel that we said the people that originated people of color that originated had they benefited from it or do you feel that it's been monetarily appropriated in a different direction like anything happens in the record industry you know the rig company you know they make the money but i think that artists today a lot smarter with their money. Because a lot of those pioneers from the hip-hop era, they're broke.

They're not doing very well. But no one knew the money we made. You're just doing it for fun. To express yourself. Yeah. Would you think that out of that New York recession, that boredom was a driving factor in expression no

I don't think boredom can do it for me I don't think boredom comes out of I don't think expression comes out of boredom I think that to express yourself is something that we have all we have within us all you have within us, that all humans have within us.

We just have different ways of displaying that. Yeah. I don't think they were guys who were rapping or scratching or spinning their head because they were bored. They knew that this was something new, an art form. Yeah. Your own process as an artist, has that changed much over the years?

It's changed because technology has changed. When I used to edit on a flatbed, now you have Avid, you have digital stuff. But the basics have same the basics have same which is don't take any shortcuts do the work and keep

building your craft for me craft is so much and so I'm going to my fourth decade as a filmmaker and I'm a cinephile besides in addition to making films I'm going into my fourth decade as a filmmaker. And I'm a cinephile. Besides, in addition to making films, I'm a professor of film. I'm a tenured professor of film at New York University Graduate Film School where Ang Lee and I were classmates, same class, class 82.

And I just love cinema. I love teaching it. I love doing it. And I say this all the time i feel i'm very blessed because a lot of people don't have or never get the opportunity to do what they love yeah a lot of people on this god's earth go to their grave haven't worked at a job they slayed that all their lives so when you can make When you can make a living Doing what you love You won That's my opinion

That's it Yeah What did Bob Bob Dylan said Something similar Bob Dylan said that If you get up in the morning And you go to bed at night

But in the middle You did that thing that you love Then you're a success Bob Dylan Yeah I'm with you Bob My father played with Bob Dylan No way

My father At one point Was a top jazz bassist Excuse me Top folk bassist Played with Bob Dylan Gordon Lightfoot Joan Baez

Judy Collins Peter You know that song Peter Perry Puff the Magic Dragon Yeah yeah yeah My father's on bass Fucking hell

Yes Bill Lee was that New York bass was he yeah yeah New York and that was down was that on Greenwich Village when all that shit was happening

yes a lot of clubs there the recording studios and Bob Dylan went electric everybody else did yeah and my father

refused his day has never plucked a note on a Fender bass. Really? He's a traditionist? Traditionist. So here's the thing though. My father had five children and a wife. Yeah.

I'm the oldest. So when he refused to play Fender bass, my mother had to work. Yeah. Because my father, He let us starve He put his fucking principles ahead of money I know but sir He has five children Yeah

Little children So my mother had to start the work She started to teach Because we would starve Fucking hell So I'm conflicted about my father. Yeah. Because I understand

his principles. Yeah. But you have five kids. I know, just plug it in. What? Just plug it in. Plug in the bass, man.

He couldn't do it. Couldn't do it. But it ended up a good story because my father ended up doing the scores for my films. My father did

the music for all my NYU films. My father did the score. He's got to have it. School days. And the scores for my films. My father did the music for all my NYU films. My father did the score. He's got to have it. School days. And the score for Do the Right Thing. And Mo' Better Blues. Brilliant. So we ended up working together once I became a filmmaker.

But he called it tone as is. He was not going to play any instrument that was electrified. Couldn't do it. Fucking hell. I can't even. I'm talking about hardcore hardliner. Yeah.

Acoustic. Yeah. Everything had to be acoustic. In fact, people would get mad because he wouldn't put up a microphone on his bass.

That's pretty exceptional. Hardcore. and that's just old school but I mean there's so much like with double basses as well

there's like crazy tradition around them like isn't you can inherit strings and stuff like you keep strings on a

double bass for like 100 years yeah yeah whereas with an electric bass that's a bad thing

you gotta change the strings and in fact when we were little we had this we had a record player so we had this sneak we were playing. We had this, we had a record player.

So we had this sneak. We'd be playing the Beatles and Motown. He would say, turn that bad music off. Okay, daddy. So we'd turn it down lower so he could hear it. What would he have thought of, we'd say, someone like Miles Davis? He knew Miles. But like Miles was fusing, we'd with say the tradition with the more modern stuff. But he always had,

even when Miles went electric, we had, they had respect for each other. In fact, I did a music video for Miles

called Tutu and Miles Davis was notorious for like cursing, he'd curse your ass out. Yeah. He'd say, Spike,

I'm not gonna call you a motherfucker because I know your father, I dig your father. Swear to God. True story. Fucking hell. So Miles gave me some slack because he knew my father, respected my father.

And what about like Harvey Hancock? He knew all those guys. Harvey was from the Bronx, wasn't he? I think Chicago. I don't know. But all those guys, even now, when they see me, they say, you know, make sure. How's your father doing? Tell your father I said okay. Wow. I don't know. But all those guys, even now, when they see me, they say, make sure. How's your father doing? Tell your father I said okay.

Wow. So he's still. But people knew him. He was one of the top. You could play his ass off. Yeah. He wasn't going to be electric. And would he have been pure jazz?

Would he have been interested in blues as well? Oh, yeah. It all comes from the blues. Yeah. It all comes from that. And Yeah. I mean, he was... It all comes from that. And is your dad from New York? No, my father was born in Snow, Alabama.

And so I was born in Atlanta. I grew up, moved to Brooklyn. My family moved to Brooklyn when I was like two or three years old. But that's... My mother died when I was in college. If you see this film, look at this film called Crooklyn.

I haven't seen it. Oh, I know Crooklyn, yeah. That's my family that film's about. Wow. Yeah. Fucking hell, I didn't know that. Yeah. So, but the little girl,

is that little girl you? No, that was my sister. Okay. She was the only girl out of five children. Cool. I got some of the questions I have are from the people on the internet right so some of them are strange questions

one question is can you ask Spike if he remembers drinking with an Irish lad in Tokyo no no okay so that person on the internet who no they might be telling the truth I just don't remember you just don't remember it yeah

well he remembers drinking with Spike Lee in Tokyo well if I did it might have been one beer because I don't really drink

no you don't like drink we have a there's a line have you ever seen the film 25th Hour I haven't seen that one no there's a line

where Barry Pepper Barry Pepper's Irish and the guy says will you stop drinking he says are you drunk he says I can't get drunk

I'm Irish yeah that's we call that functioning alcoholism back in Ireland you guys can knock it back we do

we have our culture is to develop a tolerance for it which in other oh you had your first drink maybe 12 or 13 Guinness

or whiskey no whatever's going you remember what it was probably some shit you had your first drink? Maybe 12 or 13. Guinness? Or whiskey? No, whatever's going. You remember what it was? Probably some shit beer. Some shit, like, just really cheap beer. Not the good stuff?

No, I liked Guinness as I got older. I got to develop an appreciation for it. A deep appreciation? Yeah, I do. I very, very much like a drink, you know? You're Irish! Yeah, of course. Is that stereotypical to say that? Look, I do. I very, very much, I like a drink, you know. You're Irish.

Yeah, of course. Is that stereotypical to say that? Look, I'm asking you. That's the thing. It's like, it is, but it's also a huge part of our culture.

It's like if, if a Jamaican dude, if you say a Jamaican dude is smoking weed, it's like, yes, it is a stereotype, but they tend to smoke a lot of weed. And it's the same with the Irish. I think what it is,

is like if a British person said it it's when there's negative connotations around it it's like you can't I'm all

that's why I come from a place of positivity so I hope you didn't take that as a no yeah cool we good right we good

yeah of course we're good yeah I think what it is is yeah it was like a British person saying you can't work here

you'll get drunk then it's bad but if it's someone going British person saying you can't work here you'll get drunk then it's bad but if it's someone going you're Irish you like to drink let's party then it's good but it's two sides of the same coin

what is the situation educate me because I'm glad we're doing this what is the situation today between Ireland and the UK politically

it's 800 years of colonization. Yeah, still, yeah. See that word again? Colonization. There you go. And... Which Britain knows a lot about.

Yeah, Britain knows an awful lot about. Even, look, the wall behind, I was only pointing out here, that's Orientalist. You know, that's their colonizing of both. Just to describe to the listeners, it's in India. In India, you had to get the tea. But you've Chinese things in there too. And you've got a peacock.

It's mixed in all the elements of the Orient into one. Ladies and gentlemen, we're talking about the wall in this room. The wall in this room, yeah, is an Orientalist motif. And it's just, it's pure British colonialism. But it's one, actually one thing I wanted to raise with you is Irish Americans. Now

Irish have a weird relationship with the British but what Irish people also have a strange relationship with is Irish Americans. In particular how Irish... There's friction between Irish Americans and Irish people? Yeah. Because... About what?

How racist they are. Irish-Americans? Yeah. Ooh. Come on. I said ooh. Yeah. I'm agreeing with you.

Yeah. There's been very... Even, I'll give you an example. Boston? Yeah. Irish-Americans. And historically, there's been friction between the black people in Boston

and the Irish Americans in Boston. I mean, that's like, for me, when you said that, that jumped to my mind immediately. Or the New York draft riots. One thing, when I saw Scorsese's film, what the fuck's it called Gangs of New York

Gangs of New York I knew the history they left a lot of it out he whitewashed loads of it they shot it but they cut it out the film really yeah they shot all that stuff with I'm going to be interviewing a woman soon her name is Bernadette Devlin and she was she wasn't a

member of the IRA but she would have been we say on that side and in the IRA but she would have been we'll say on that side and in the 1970s she when the Irish Americans gave support to Ireland in the we'll say the war

the insurgency against Britain they brought over a lot of activists from Ireland to New York so all the Irish Americans were going oh we'll support you we'll support you Bernadette Devlin went to New York

and said to the Irish-Americans, my people are not the Irish-Americans. My people are the blacks and the Chicanos, and you are treating the blacks and Chicanos the way that we are being treated at home. The Irish-Americans didn't like it one bit. That did not go over well, did it? No. The mayor of New York gave her the key to the city.

Who? Giuliani? I don't know who the fuck it was. No, this would have been... Bloomberg? 71 or 72. Abe Beam? Probably. Or John Lindsay. She took the key to New York

and she went to Harlem and she gave it to the Black Panthers. Yeah? Yeah. So I'm going to be interviewing her soon. She's a guest? She's a guest on this podcast. Please tell her Spike Lee. She'd be thrilled to find that out. But another thing I would like to add the thing about New York

was very strange because immigrants came to America through New York Ellis Island

and so right away the groups took that thing. So, sanitation, Irish gonna have that. Yeah. No, no. The Italians had that.

We had the cops. The teachers, the teachers were Jewish. But the cops were Irish. And so, that contributed to the friction between

the Irish-American community in New York and with the African-Americans. Because the Irish were the cops. Yeah. There's a fantastic book called How the Irish Became White. Which is, it shows that when the Irish were coming to America in the 17th or 18th century, they came from. Can I just say this? They were considered niggas

pretty much because whoever whoever was the latest the last group in you were at the bottom yeah and it became you could say

maybe the the American story immigrants where you try to the Jews came the Irish came the Italian Americans and they were trying to

so whoever just comes behind you... Yeah. And the Irish came from a system called the penal laws, which would be similar, it would be very similar to Jim Crow. Right. That type of system. And when the Irish came to America from this,

you know, knowing nothing other than oppression, that's the first time they came across the colour line. Right. And what they say is that the Irish earned their whiteness in American society by acts of brutality against the black community. Let me ask you a question. What is black Irish?

Black Irish. I never understood that term. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. It can mean two things. In Ireland, what black Irish means is the Spanish tried to help us fight the British

like 200 years ago. So there was a Spanish ship called... The Armada was... It was bolstered. It got shipwrecked in Ireland. So people who have black hair in Ireland are called the Black Irish. The other thing it can mean is there's a theory

that the Irish people, genetically, we come from Morocco and Algeria. And then in America, I think what it means is, we'll say people from the Five Points 200 years ago, where they're both sharing the same place and the intermarriage. With the former slaves, right? But what I say to Irish Americans, when I see Irish Americans now, because we're very embarrassed by Irish Americans americans especially when we see people like you know all ryan all these fucking names in the white house and irish they're all fucking irish

the worst cunts are fucking irish in america and what we get done about it like that it is but for us it's embarrassing because our kind of thing as a society is that we know oppression as a people. You mean colonized? Yeah, we were colonized. How many years? 300 years, right? Yeah, 800 years. So for us, it's very... How much? 800?

800 years, yeah. Shit. And so it's annoying for us to kind of see it. No, we get pissed off when we see them calling themselves Irish. Because what we remind them of is there was a guy called Daniel O'Connell in 1840, and he's known as the Irish Emancipator. He emancipated us, and he used to bring Frederick Douglass to Ireland. What?

Yes, and Frederick Douglass was in Limerick. My man, you're educating Spike. I'm telling you, I did not know that Frederick Douglass came to Ireland. He did. Damn! This is what you need to say to an Irish-American the next time you see an Irish-American talking shit. What do you think of St. Patrick's Day parade

I mean it's good but I mean again it's it's I mean black Americans don't like St. Patrick's Day parade because it's just another white people doing their white shit isn't it getting drunk

well again it's Irish Americans kind of almost appropriating our culture in a way as well because they're becoming a caricature. And then we look at it going, that's kind of silly. Can I ask you a question? Is there, this is what I'm hearing from you, is this a dialogue that's happening now between Irish-Americans and national Irish? Yeah, because on the internet. Because we haven't, we've never really seen it before.

We've never known how actually racist they are. They became the overseer. That's what they did. Like, I was thinking of fucking. So what do Irish Americans say when native Irish people say, you blokes. They don't know what to say. What? They don't know what to say.

You say, you are racist. They don't know what to say. What? They don't know what to say. You say, you are racist. They don't know what to say. They say... You have nothing to come back on? There's two things they bring up. Now, the first thing, what I say to them, and this is what pisses them off, I bring up,

when Daniel O'Connell used to bring Frederick Douglass, the purpose of that visit was, this is 1840, so Irish people, dark poor, had never seen a black person. There was no newspapers, nothing. So Daniel O'Connell would bring Frederick Douglass on tours of Ireland and he would say, this man here.

And they'd go, wow, I've never seen someone like that before. And he would say, I know most of you are going to America next year. When you go to America, if you see people like him, that's a common struggle. You must join with these people, these black people. What's this guy's name? Daniel O'Connell. And him and Frederick Douglass toured Ireland and he said.

I gotta get on. Oh man, it'd be some story. I'm gonna give you my email. Yeah, do. So please send me information. I will. Because what you're telling me, I do not know. It's an incredible story.

And what I'm trying to do actually in limerick is the place where that where frederick douglas spoke is a restaurant and i'm trying to get a plaque put there to commemorate it but daniel o'connell said the same restaurant yeah then it used to be like um like a church yeah so daniel o'connell said to the irish people if you go to america next year and you do not help men who look like this, you can no longer consider yourself Irish. That's what I say to the Irish Americans. What do you say? Fuck you?

I say you went to America. You instead of aligning yourself with other oppressed people, you chose to find the color line and find your whiteness by oppressing black people. Therefore, you gave up your Irishness at that moment. So you're a yank. You're not an Irish person. They go fucking apeshit. They can't handle it. Have you heard the Irish slaves myth?

Educate me again, sir. So that this is another huge dialogue between Irish people and Irish Americans. This thing has happened in the past four or five years where Irish people will say to black people, my ancestors were slaves too. And it's ahistorical. What happened was Irish people were sent,

it was about 250,000 Irish people were sent to the colonies of Barbados and Jamaica. That's why Jamaican accents sometimes sounds a little bit Irish but the thing is Irish people were sent as indentured servants

they worked on the plantation they worked alongside African slaves but they could work for their freedom in maybe 15-20 years

they were not chattel there was no generational fucking system that's still still seeing the effects of today years they were not chattel there was no generational fucking system that still you've still seen the effects of today that's what the Irish Americans don't get they don't they go

well my ancestors were slaves too so but essentially what they're making is a fucking very racist biological argument to suggest that they had the same struggle and their whiteness and superiority there was intermarriage between that

Irish and there was intermarriage but often what happened was Ireland as a nation never engaged in the slave trade as a nation but those indentured servants that went to Barbados what did they think they did when they got their 15 years freedom? They went and

became fucking slave owners, They became the overseers. And then those dudes, actually, this will interest you. The people that would have oppressed the Irish, we refer to them now as orange men. The big thing in Ireland is that if you were oppressed, you were a native Irish Catholic. But who was oppressing them were from England and Scotland Protestants

and their leader was called King William, King Billy so a lot of these oppressors of the Irish moved to Mississippi, the southern states, they were the Scotch Irish they were essentially British were they confederacy? Yes

but all their names were fucking Billy because of King William that's what a fucking hillbilly is and that's where hillbilly comes from

yeah what these cunts that were oppressing I'm telling you King William can I just say this as we stay in New York

you've been dropping signs look my man's dropping signs ladies and gentlemen because he told me shit I never I just found out the origin of the word hillbilly dropping signs. I, look. My man's dropping signs, ladies and gentlemen. I tell you what, I never, I just found out the origin of the word hillbilly.

Yeah. It's because of King William. Those, the people that would have been oppressing the Irish, they went, it's, I'm not going to say they

founded the fucking clan because that's a lot of a reach, but the culture that the clan would have come from... Close. It is quite close because we had the Irish penal laws that went...

That was studied and became Jim Crow. It had been done before as is always the system. But that's... Can you say that again? It had been done before? It's just repeating

the same fucking system. Again? And... Like divide and conquer? Divide and conquer. Same thing. Yeah. It's the same fucking system. Again. And. Like, like, uh, divide and conquer. Divide and conquer. Same thing. Yeah. It's the same fucking thing.

Same shit. Um, another thing that might interest you. Like, the phrase, do you dig? You dig. Yeah. That comes from the Irish word, and dig into, which means understand. It's from the Five Points. So, the Five Points in New York York you would have had native Irish speakers

mixing with freed slaves so as some words that are in African American vernacular you would find the roots in the Irish gays oh my god

digging you dig that's my shit right there yeah you're saying that's an Irish word I'm digging too but this is what kind of

but you know what though my grandmother lived to be 100 years old I'm digging to But this is what kind of But you know what though My grandmother Who lived to be 100 years old She used to say That her grandfather Was an Irishman You know where she was born

Where Dublin Georgia Yeah That's that weird I know it's weird My grandmother Who lived to be 100 years old Put me through

College and film school She was born in Dublin Georgia But here's the thing Spike You know if it's called Dublin That means it was one of the bad ones That did it

Cause a poor Irish man Did not get the name of town Do you know what I mean? It's like Baltimore Baltimore literally means in Irish Ballya T Moore Which is the big house So like It's like Baltimore. Baltimore literally means in Irish, Balia T. Moore,

which is the big house. So like, it's... Whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. Whoa, whoa. Balia... Some more science. Baltimore. Break it down again.

So Balia is like home, T is house, and Moore is big. So Balia T. Moore. The big house. Right. And more is big. So Balia T more. The big house. Baltimore. And you know who lived in the big house? Mazza.

There you go. Yeah. So this is what kind of... How old are you with my ass? You... I do a lot of reading. I like my history. There you go.

I like my history. Why don't... You know, we got a president and this guy doesn't read a book. I know. He's a fucking agent Yeah Yeah

Give me an Irish word For What's the Irish equivalent For a motherfucker Oh Amidon Amidon It would mean fool

Yeah Amidon I like motherfucking better Motherfucker's nice Yeah But this This This shit is

Our engineer She's dying laughing over here. You know what? If you want to laugh, let it out. It makes it good because you're dying laughing. Yeah, like you're worried that I give a fuck if her laugh is on it. Give a shit. Let it out because there's some funny shit here.

But this is why we have this, the Irish have this complicated relationship with Irish Americans, because if you know your fucking history, you know that there was, for a small time, a shared understanding and a shared, an opportunity for solidarity. That, and we did not do that. We basically said, you see it now today, even like we in Ireland, we've only been getting immigrants for the past 10 years because we've been a poor country. So a lot of immigrants may be Polish people. If a Polish man wants to be more Irish, the best thing he can do is give out about an Arab or give out about a Muslim or complain about them. And that's what the Irish did.

It's the same old thing. It's how do you identify with the oppressor or oppressor who's being oppressed? So what's the vibe in Ireland now then? We're just recovering from a recession. It's changing. Let me ask another way. What's the vibe amongst young people? Young people in Ireland.

Are they trying to come to London? Do they want to get out? Yeah, we're always immigrating. We're always leaving. We've got one of the biggest diasporas in the world. So we're always leaving. Because what's wrong that people got to go? No future?

Yeah, no future. I mean, we're a small country. We never colonized anyone. So we don't have this massive load of fucking wealth and as well it's post-colonial we don't have a true independence we keep looking when the british left us we gave all our power to the catholic church and that was a huge amount of abuse as well we never got a chance to talk about the fucking film does a catholic church run in the used to now it's gone now when we found out that the the level of abuse that was being done now we've all turned our backs it's quite a liberal country we legalized gay marriage we've got abortion things like that which wouldn't happen in ireland maybe 20 years ago you know so so is there a progressive

move yeah there is big time good can i ask you one question about the film please do i loved it 20 years ago, you know? So is there a progressive move? Yeah. There is? Big time. Good. Can I ask you one question about the film? Please do. I loved it. I absolutely fucking enjoyed it. What was the overall message you wanted?

Because it is, it's not 100% fact. There's elements of fiction there, and I can tell that it was a clear narrative, especially the way that you portrayed Adam Driver's character. Yes. You made a point of letting us know he's Jewish, and even though he's white,

these KKK cunts want to kill him too. What's the thinking behind that? Well, Jews are a close second to black people as far as the Klan goes. But because you finished it with Charlottesville, were you looking for like a message of inclusion rather than division? Did you, was that a message for white allies?

Oh, yes. To go, you're next. So you don't get to just be. I mean, hate is hate. And what happened to Charlottesville on August 12th, we hadn't started to shoot the film yet. Yeah. We didn't start to September. Charlottesville on August 12th, we hadn't started to shoot the film yet. Yeah.

We didn't start until September. Charlottesville happened August 12th. So it was an afterthought to kind of throw that in? No, it was before. Okay. Charlottesville happened before. And so when it happened, I knew I had, even though we had not commenced shooting, I knew I had an ending because of Charlottesville. Yeah.

And there's a history, though. If we go back to... A guy interviewed me today. He's wearing a t-shirt of John Brown who led the revolt at Harpens Ferry, a white man. There's a history of black and white people who were progressive coming together.

It's not new. John Brown, I was like 18 who knows when. It happened in the Civil Rights Movement. Yeah. During the 60s. And historically, especially in the 60s, you really had a tight collision between Jews and blacks, which is not the same as today, but back then it was.

So it wasn't far-fetched for Ron Storff's character to be Jewish. Plus, add another layer. Adam Driver's character is playing the white Ron Storff. Yeah. So he's code-switching there.

Also, he's Jewish. Yeah. So he has two things that he's hiding switching there. Also, he's Jewish. Yeah. So he has two things that he's hiding from the Klan. And what's your response to, we'll say, some criticism has said that you went a bit easy on the police, that you should have gone harder on the police. What do you say to that? Here's the thing, though.

This film is a true story, and Ron Stallworth, I can't make him out to be kwame kwame which we've seen in the film that's not him yeah but we do see there's a scene where he says uh he asked about this guy land there said yeah he killed a black kid but we're not gonna do nothing about it you know because that'd that would be breaking the blue wall. And then what people are missing is that when we show that altercation, August 12th, I'm going to use an Irish word. It was a Donnybrook. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We were the cops. Yeah. We was law enforcement. Yeah. There was no way around and I've been very critical of police

we saw that in Malcolm X we saw that in Do The Right Thing but I didn't have to hammer that point already when people just turn on television and see stories about black people being shot in the streets left and right. So I'm very, you know, at peace with what we do with this film.

I think that, on the other hand, I've never been the one that said I hate police. We need police. Yeah. We just need people who can't be, you know, kill people and not think about it because of the color of their skin. So, with my body of work, especially amongst

black folks, you know, they think that Spike Lee should do this. Yeah. And Spike would do that. And my thing is like, there's 45 million African Americans who are not one mile into the group. And It's like there's 45 million African-Americans. We're not one mile into the group.

And it's okay if I do something that you don't like. Yeah. That's it. So you're comfortable with criticism. You're able to. I'm very comfortable. I mean, I've been at it 32 years. So, you know.

How were you with criticism when you were younger? Did you find it affected your creativity? No, it didn effect, my creativity, what it did was get me mad, which is like a device that what those guys do, they get you to lose your focus. That's what I mean. Yeah. Why am I worried about what this person said?

I should be like, I learned it later on, but I didn't know it at the beginning. I was like, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. Now, I just keep stepping. Well done.

Good man. I'm going to give you my email, right? Yeah. Really? I want you to send me all the... I'm going to give you a copy of my book too, if you don't mind. You got it on you? I do, yeah.

Can you sign it for me, please? I would love to sign a fucking book. Thank you. This is the best interview I had this trip. Thanks very much. Is it? Yes. And that's not bullshit.

That's real. Thank you, mate. No, no, no. Thank you. My brother. Thank you. Let's do it again, all right? All right.

Okay. And like that, he was gone. And, he's fucking, his minder, hold on, my microphone is acting the prick.

I've got an awful set up here in this hotel room. So, like, yeah, his minder came in we've got an awful set up here in this hotel room so like his yeah his minder came in and started looking at the watch we only had 40 minutes together em

but we clicked and I tell you what lads and I knew by the look in his fucking eyes that was a man who wanted to go for a pint he wanted to go for a fucking pint, I know he said, you know, he doesn't drink that much, that is a man by the end of that conversation with so much fucking crack, he wanted to go for a pint and I nearly chased him down the hall and said it to him, like we were just across the road from fucking Soho Theatre,

We were just across the road from fucking Soho Theatre. Which is, that's my stomping ground. You know, I'm well looked after in Soho Theatre. Could have gotten us a snug and a fucking pints for free all night and continued the conversation. But he had to go. He's fucking, Spike is doing non-stop interviews for the next two days. To promote the fucking film. And I'm just fucking sickened. Sickened.

Pints with Spike Lee off to Soho Theatre. Get a few in. Then fucking drag him off to an IRA bar in Cricklewood. See some trad. That's the evening I would have wanted. Because we had fucking crack. We clicked.

And. It was a pleasure. It was magnificent. So. Alright. That's it. That's the fucking podcast. Thank you for listening.

We didn't have a chance for. We'll do the Ocarina pause. Alright. You better believe. I brought the ocarina to London with me so we'll do our little ocarina pause if there's any digital adverts for the British Army

alright on April 5th you must be very careful Margaret it's a girl, witness the birth bad things will start to happen On April 5th, you must be very careful, Margaret. It's a girl. Witness the birth. Bad things will start to happen. Evil things of evil.

It's all for you. No, no, don't. The first omen. I believe the girl is to be the mother. Mother of what? Is the most terrifying. Six, six, six. It's the mark of the devil. Hey!

Movie of the year. It's not real. It's not real. It's not real. It's not real. Who said that? The First Omen. Only in theaters April 5th. Will you rise with the sun to help change mental health care forever? Join the Sunrise Challenge to raise funds for CAMH, the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health,

to support life-saving progress in mental health care. From May 27th to 31st, people across Canada will rise together and show those living with mental illness and addiction that they're not alone. Help CAMH build a future where no one is left behind.

So, who will you rise for? Register today at sunrisechallenge.ca. That's sunrisechallenge.ca. so that was the ocarina pause and also if you enjoyed the podcast um please support it through the Patreon page. Patreon.com forward slash The Blind Buy Podcast. I do about five hours of content for free a month. If you feel like, you know, if you're listening to that and going,

geez, that was good crack, I would by a punt a pint or a cup of coffee if you would feel that way then the way to do it is through the patreon page and that supports this podcast and if you can't afford it that's fine you can listen for free that's that's that's how it works um anything else i wanted to say yeah so in in that podcast we touched we touched a lot upon Irish and racism and Irish Americans and racism

and I mentioned there's a few things in there actually that historically a few things historically that are a bit now I've since I've since. I've since mailed Spike Lee with some information. With the history and shit. But there's a few things that are.

Probable but not confirmed. So. On digging to. Turning into dig. That again. Probable but not confirmed. It's one of those things that's hard to. Completely test.

Orangemen, you know, being called William, turning into hillbillies. Again, highly probable, hard to confirm. And anything else in there? That's about it. But the other thing I spoke about was you know how the Irish people you know as a nation the Irish

you know as a country we never got involved in the slave trade so a lot of Irish people think oh brilliant we get a free pass then do you know no white guilt for us we didn't do anything to anyone

well historically yeah we were too busy being colonized to do anything particularly mean to someone else which we absolutely would have done if we weren't being colonized because that's what you know it's what humans do humans are just shitheads who colonize other people if they can but we don't get a free pass because currently in Ireland there is a very shameful system known as direct provision and direct provision is it's a way for Ireland to meet international laws for accommodating asylum seekers in the most minimal way possible and you end up with people of color um essentially kind of just fucking imprisoned in this really shitty system that's happening in ireland now with quite a bit of secrecy around it

and i've personally i think direct provision is going to be... It's going to be our Magdalene laundries in 10 years. Some dark shit is going to come out. But what I would ask of you... Find out... People living in direct provision, they get, I think it's something like 19 euros a week. And there's a lot of kids who grew up and were born in direct

provision and these are kids who could have war trauma from Afghanistan and shit too but they're going to school, they're going to school in September and if you look for your local kind of charity that's helping with refugees

in Limerick I believe it's Doris are the people that are doing it look at these people and what they're doing at the moment, they're trying to gather school bags and school books, they're trying to look for donations for school bags and school books for kids that

are in direct provision who are going to be entering national school in September I urge you to please donate to this cause and i'll tell you why just think of it this way if you're three or four years of age maybe five five years of age from afghanistan or the congo and you're already different you're already entering school by being different because you're you know you you physically look different and you're culturally different so that's that's tough enough going into school and you're fucking three or four years of age which is when you know

we form our personalities now imagine on top of that you're the one who has the shitty books the shitty clothes doesn't have a school bag because you're the one who has the shitty books, the shitty clothes, doesn't have a school bag because you're too poor. That's what these kids in direct provision are going to be facing in September. So please help. Find your local direct provision support group and donate school books, book vouchers, school bags, whatever you can because what you're doing is you're buying these kids dignity. That's what it is. You're not getting them things.

You're giving them the dignity to walk into that schoolyard at the earliest age of their life and to at least feel equal to the other children. Don't let these little kids be the ones with the bag that has holes in it or the books that are clearly fucking third hand and falling apart don't let that happen on top of the fact that they're already different because that will shape

their personalities as they become adults and it will shape those personalities negatively and that is a system and if you want to stop that system in 20 years then intervene now when they're children and just try your best

first of all obviously to fucking end direct provision but secondly while it is happening assist the children that are in direct provision so they have the dignity of being the same as other kids please do that. Alright.

Em. I leave you go. That was an enjoyable podcast. I love talking to Spike Lee. Em. I hope to one day. Have a fucking pint with him. When he comes to Ireland.

That would be magnificent. God bless Thank you. rock city you're the best fans in the league, bar none. Tickets are on sale now for Fan Appreciation Night on Saturday, April 13th when the Toronto Rock hosts the Rochester Nighthawks at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton at 7.30pm. You can also lock in your playoff pack right now to guarantee the same seats for every postseason game and you'll only pay as we play. Come along for the ride and punch your ticket to Rock City at torontorock.com.