The Blindboy Podcast - Dr. Gabor Mate

Episode Date: February 25, 2026

Gabor Mate is a Hungarian born Canadian physician and author known for popular books linking trauma and stress to addiction and chronic illness. We chat about intergenerational trauma, capitalism and breathing Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Wish upon a pinprick, you whispering, Vincent's. Welcome to the Blindby podcast. If this is your first episode, consider going back to an earlier episode to familiarise yourself with the lore of this podcast. I am almost recovered from the chicken pox. I no longer have the chicken pox virus, so I'm not itchy anymore.

I don't have a fever. I'm free of the chicken pox virus. However, obviously while I was canvalescing, I was trying to find out everything and anything I could about chicken pox. I couldn't find... No one really understands the etymology why it's called chicken pox. I'd assumed, oh, this jumped from chickens to humans, nothing to do with that. There's not definitive answer as to why it's called chicken pox. One theory is because it's a pox.

There were much more serious poxes like cowpox or smallpox like really serious diseases. So if you got chicken pox it was like the less serious one, just a little chicken pox. Or another theory is that the bumps look like chickpeas. What I understand the chicken pox to be now, haven't dealt with it. So I don't have the virus anymore, I'm not sick, so why am I still unwell? I've, it's, it's like a very, very annoying chicken jumped into my bed and pecked the living fuck out of me for three days salad. A very aggressive chicken

who's seriously interested in my genital region had a good old fucking peck at me for multiple days and even when the virus was gone I'm recovering from about a thousand wounds. There's a thousand wounds all over my body that I'm recovering from. So the tiredness and lethargy of that has been quite extreme, so I'm still in that myself this week.

But I do have a podcast, even if I didn't have the energy for a full hot take. I chatted with a dream guest a couple of weeks back. A fellow by the name of Dr. Gabor Mate, who is someone I've wanted to speak to on this podcast for many years.

One of my podcast listeners, uh, the film maker, Shannon Walsh very kindly introduced me via email to Gabarmate and helped to set up a chat. I've been trying to speak to Gabermatte since I think 2018, 2017 and just haven't had a hope because his schedule, he's fully booked out. He's an internationally renowned speaker. So absolute privilege to be able to get to speak to him this week. If you don't know who Gabramatta is he's a former medical doctor who takes a trauma-informed approach to addiction,

illnesses, the relationship between stress, trauma, the mind and the body, and he's a brilliant speaker. He's very outspoken about the system of capitalism, how the system of capitalism impacts our emotional well-being or mental health. He's written books about addiction, trauma, parenting. He's also considered quite controversial when it comes to ADHD in particular. He takes a trauma-informed view of ADHD rather than a diagnostic view. Now I know some, because I'm neurodivergent, I'm diagnosed autistic, so I know some of my listeners now might be unhappy with me for platforming someone

who has views that challenge the diagnostic model, especially when people fight so hard to get diagnosis and what diagnosis can mean for people. So content warning, if you don't want to hear that, just skip past the section where I speak to him about neurodivergence. So me personally, you know, I'm diagnosed autistic, I'm comfortable with that diagnosis. But I also, I think it's healthy

to consistently challenge in question the DSM in particular, the diagnostics and statistics manual. I'm diagnosed autistic because I met the diagnostic criteria in the DSM 5, I think it was. Is it the 5 or the 6? I think is the 5, DSM 5, but the DSM is consistently changing. So put it this way. In 2012, I would not have been diagnosed as autistic. In 2012, there was another diagnosis in the DSM cult. Asperger's.

So I probably would have been considered Asperger's, but I wouldn't have been diagnosed as autistic. When I was a kid in school, when I could have really benefited with a diagnosis, I wouldn't have gotten one. Because I was not considered autistic, not when I was back in school. Only in 2013

did autism level one become a diagnosis and that replaced Aspergers. In 1952, in the DSM-1, being gay was classified as a mental illness. It was classified as a sociopathic personality disturbance.

Being gay was only removed from the DSM in 1973. So prior to 1973, if somebody was gay, they were considered mentally ill. They were diagnosed as a sociopath. Up until the 1980s, there was a diagnosis called hysteria. That doesn't exist anymore. When I was diagnosed with autism, the person diagnosing me, said to me,

now you know this might change, you know, in five or six years' time or ten years' time, they might decide to remove your autism diagnosis from the DSM. And if you're asking the question of, you hear it now in the press quite a lot. Why are there so many artistic people these days? There was no autistic people in my day. What's with this sudden explosion of autism?

And it's not a sudden explosion of autism. The diagnostic criteria changed in 2013, so now more people are being identified as autistic under the current DSM criteria. I mean, what matters to me personally as an autistic person is what does the diagnosis mean for me? I find it quite helpful. Helps me to understand myself better. It would have been way more helpful when I was in school. It would have been really helpful then. But I think it is, it's healthy to challenge psychiatry.

It is healthy to challenge the DSM, which consistently changes and to ask questions around it. So when, when I'm chatting to Gabarmate, that's the context that I'm speaking to me. I'm speaking to me in the context of not accepting the DSM as a Bible, but instead asking questions around it. and you're free to disagree with it and you're free to not fucking listen at all if that's what you, if you don't want to hear that. Before I get into the chat with Gabor, I don't want to interrupt it,

so I'm going to do a little ocarina pause. That was the ocarina pause. You'd have heard an advert there for some bullshit. That was an actual ocarina. I'm saving the Protestant float. I have a lovely low Protestant flute that was given to me in Belfast.

I'll have that next week, I think. I'll play a, for you lovely sound. Sounds almost Japanese. If you're a regular listening to this podcast and it brings you mirth or merriment or distraction, entertainment, whatever the fuck has you listening to this podcast, please consider supporting it directly. Support for this podcast comes from you, the listener via the Patreon page, patreon.com forward slash the blindbuy podcast. This podcast is how I earn a living. It's my full-time job. So I pay all my bills. It's how I purchase the equipment to make the podcast, how I rent out my studio.

This is how I earn a living. And listener support is how I have the time and space to show up with a podcast every Wednesday. All I'm looking for is the price of a pint or a cup of coffee once a month. That's it. And as always, if you can't afford that, if you don't have that money, if you, don't worry about it. Listen to the podcast for free. You listen for free because the person who's paying is paying for you to listen for free. Everybody gets the exact same podcast. I get to earn a living and I'm not beholden to the whims of

advertisers. Advertisers can't come in here, change the content in any way. I'm not worried about popularity, about how many listens I get. I don't want to be controversial for the sake of being controversial. I just want to show up each week and be passionate. That's it. Just a few upcoming gigs. So last week as you know I had to cancel my gig in Galway because I fell sick with the chicken pox and that's the first, the first gig that I had to cancel because of illness since 2011. So that Galway gig has now been rescheduled, okay, to the 25th of April. So that's just about six weeks away, the 25th of April. If you bought a ticket, those tickets are valid. You can come along to that gig. I put it on on a Saturday night. Hopefully it wouldn't inconvenience anyone. If you can't make

it to that gig and you did buy a ticket, you're entitled to a refund. But that also means that there should be a few tickets available if you want to buy one and come along to that gig in Galway on the 25th of April. And thank you so much to everybody for your patience and understanding because it's not nice for a gig to get cancelled and for your plans to be changed. So thank you so much to everybody for being patient around that. I'm a bit slurry with my words this week. I'm convalescing. I'm convalescing.

That's the actual word for what I'm up to right now. Convalesing. My body is recovering. So anyway, this Saturday, the 28th of... It's February, isn't it? 28th of February this Saturday. I'm going to be gigging in the eyeneck in Killarney. There's no fear of that gig getting cancelled.

I'm better. My chicken pox is fucking gone. I'm just a bit wrecked. But by Saturday, which is six days of... I'll be fucking flying it and I can't wait to get down to Kerry to gig in the eyegneck and to use the broom closet as my dressing room to humble myself and have a cracker of a guest as well I'm going to be speaking to Sean Ronane again the Bard expert Sean Ronane is an expert on Bard Sounds he's also autistic I had him on the podcast about three years ago he's

fascinating he's a he's a listener to this podcast and he's a He has some new information about Starlings that he wants to tell me about. So if you fancy that, if you want to listen to two people, two autistic people get very, very enthusiastic about Starlings. Then come along to that gig there on Saturday in the Eineck in Killarney. Sean Ronane is fucking unreal. He's an expert in Bard Sounds. He is fascinating. And he is Mr. Starling.

So then March 14th I'm in Carlo I think that's sold out Cork on the 23rd of March A couple of tickets left for that That's selling out very quickly There's only about 100 tickets left for that Then April I'm in Castle Blaney

Up in Monaghan Let's do that Limerick City On the 9th of April Again very few tickets left for that Dublin Vickers Street 20th of April 4 gigs in April now

I'll be busy in fucking April with that Galway one thrown in. But yeah, Vickers Street on the 20th and then the Galway, the Galway one on the 25th. June, Berlin. Berlin, um, my Berlin gig sold out, right?

So I'm adding a second Berlin date on the 20th of June. Then I'm over in fucking Sheffield in July. And the 5th is it? The 5th of July I'm in Sheffield. forward to that as the Crossed Wires Festival. And then sure fuck it look. That big tour of England, Scotland and Wales

in October, which is selling quickly even though it's ages away. Brighton, Cardiff, Coventry, Bristol, Guildford, London, Glasgow, Gateshead and Nottingham. Fendaffco.com.uk UK forward slash blindbuyer tickets for that and the other gigs. The Blindby Podcast.com.I.e.

assuming the website is working it's very buggy let's get into this chat with Gabber Mate we speak about intergenerational trauma capitalism we speak about breathing to calm the nervous system

Gabour's schedule is very very busy so I was quite lucky to get the time with him that I did and I hope you enjoy it hope you enjoy this chat with Gabarmate and check out his website by Dr.Gabermate.com and check out his books.

Gabramate, thank you so much for your time. The first thing I want to speak to you about is the impacts of intergenerational trauma. So I'm Irish. We're colonized people, 800 years of colonization. The impacts of this are evident in our mental health, our self-image, our rates of addiction.

But something else I've always really struggled to understand. is, if you look at the history of Irish people in North America, we'll say, New York, you have this historically oppressed population arriving into New York. Like I'm talking the 1830s, 1840s, they arrived to New York and they suddenly find themselves living alongside another oppressed population, formerly enslaved African American people. But the Irish in America brutalized their African-American neighbors. If you look at

the New York draft riots where there were lynchings or even the history of Irish people performing in minstrel shows in the 1850s or the 1860s, it would appear that the Irish history of oppression did not result in understanding

or solidarity with other people who were oppressed. And as soon as Irish people achieved proximity to power. They willingly engaged in the oppression of another group. You're Jewish, you're very outspoken against the conduct of Israel. I can't help but draw parallels between these two things. Jewish people are historically a very oppressed group. There's the Holocaust and then even before the Holocaust. A history of antisessing Pagrams and ethnic cleansing going back a thousand years all over Europe. I'd love to get your opinion on this as it relates to the conduct of Israel towards the people

of Palestine. Why does historical oppression not emerge as solidarity? Why do historically oppressed groups sometimes enact that same behavior upon other oppressed people? Well, let's make it more general. If you look at the people that came to North America are from Europe. Very often they came from oppressed, deprived backgrounds.

And they enthusiastically all joined in suppressing and massacring the indigenous peoples. Absolutely, yes. And so what you say about the Irish, they just joined the general trend of immigrants who were being traumatized themselves. but then find themselves in a position of power. And now they're acting out what happened to them

on people who are less powerful than they are. And the same thing happened in Palestine. So that the same British Empire that colonized and oppressed Ireland for all those years took over Palestine. And they empowered Jews from Europe to lord it over the indigenous people, population and the Jews there have done precisely what other escapees from trauma have done,

which is to identify with power. Now we have power, we can assert ourselves and now we don't have to be weak and victims anymore. And then they victimize the local population. And this has happened in colonial systems all around the world from Africa to Australia and New Zealand, North America, South America, of course. So it's nothing unusual about it. It's completely tragic, and the horror in Palestine is beyond words.

But it's of a peace with the history of people who, under a colonial umbrella, escape from their own suffering, and they inflict suffering in others. It's a very common phenomenon. Where does hailing even begin? with something like this? You can't heal people who don't want to be healed. And colonialism journey don't want to be healed.

So that as long as it works for them and they can maintain power and privilege, they're not lacking for healing. So, you know, in Israel there are some people, you know, a very respectable minority, but a small minority who want to heal. their countries, increasingly fascistic tendencies. Yeah. But they are a minority.

And if you look at Nazi Germany, nobody there wanted healing as long as Germany was winning the war, you know, and dominant. And same with the British Empire, you know. The British didn't want healing. They just wanted to maintain their dominance. So when you see, where does healing come from?

Healing doesn't come on as people invite it. And as long as this power and privilege and relative safety, people don't want healing. And, you know, the Irish in New York, typically they became cops. Yes. And they beat up on the workers. A culture of racist brutality. black people and immigrants and so on. And that was their way of getting a sense of agency and

dominance, you know, of which they'd be deprived all those centuries. So it's an all too common human phenomenon. For listeners who might not be aware, I've heard you speak very powerfully before about intergenerational trauma and your own family's history of being victims of the Holocaust. Are you okay to speak about that? It is okay. I'm almost to say, too tired of talking about it.

Okay. Only because it's a story of so many people around the world, you know. Yeah. And also, you know, I resist the idea that because this happened to my family or to me personally as an infant, therefore I have some kind of authority to speak on ladders, you know, because the same thing happened to other people, and they have totally different points of you from mine. So the tooth is the truth, and no matter what happened to my family, the truth of Ireland

is the truth of Ireland, and the truth of Palestine is the truth of Palestine, you know? So one's individual story doesn't grant one authority. But, you know, yeah, so I was an infant. I don't, not dismissing it, but, you know, I was an infant under the Nazis. I was two months old when the Nazis occupied Hungary and large parts of my extended family were exterminated, including my grandparents. I stood in a very spot in Auschwitz last May where my grandparents would have alighted from the train and be sent right to the gas chambers, you know.

So that's my family history. And I spent my first year as an infant in very dire conditions and being sick nearly to death as an infant and separated from my mother and all that. So that that's the history. But again, when I say we go to Palestine, the truth of what I say, insofar as I speak truth, is not because of what happened to me personally,

but because that's just the truth, you know? And some Holocaust survivors will draw entirely different conclusions, and what they'll conclude is that now we Jews have to assert ourselves and be dominant, otherwise we'll be massacred again, you know? And that's a completely illegitimate conclusion, as far as I'm concerned, but they can also claim Holocaust survival

is kind of their platform, you know. So that history doesn't give me any more validation than it gives the other side any validation. So I'm diagnosed autistic. What does it mean to you that diagnosis? It's a new word that I've been given that describes how I've been my whole life.

What is being described? I mean, sometimes I prefer the word noradivirgent. Divergent from what? See, that's the thing. Where you use the word neurodivergent? The word divergence is in it.

Divergence means that's something that you've diverged from. What is that thing that you've diverged from? In other words, it assumes a kind of normality and you're not on that scale of normal. You're divergent for normal. But what the hell is that normal that you're supposed to? have diverged from. I'm really questioning.

I know it describes certain traits and so on, but as an explanation, what are you diverging from? I suppose as a kid, what I was diverging from was being able to sit still in school, being able to focus on what I was told to focus on, instead being consumed by passions and interests. and this really getting in the way of me being able to participate.

But human beings are not meant to sit in school. The way we evolved as human beings for millions of years actually, and even in the life of our own species, and homo sapiens are particular species has been on the earth for 150,000,000 years. Did kids sit in school most of that time? No hell. They were running around a savannah or in the jungle. they're one sitting in desks

made to listen to stuff that bored them so what are we diverging from what I'm saying is that this assumption my latest book is called The Myth of Normal Trauma illness and healing and a toxic culture

but what is this normal Is it normal to sit in a classroom and listen to boring stuff not in terms of human evolution it isn't it's only been we've only been doing it for a short period of time

So what is it that you're divergent from? Why should you sit in the classroom still and listen to stuff that bores you? I've read your book Scattered Minds, which you published in 1999, so that's 27 years ago. And I'd love to know, has your opinion changed around ADHD and neurodivergence in general? The only thing that has changed, again, I do resist this phrase neurodivergence, because I'm saying that that assumes that there's a healthy normal from which people are diverging. And I question that. My opinion has only been confirmed by science since I wrote that book.

And the opinion is very simple. The human brain develops an interaction with the environment. and there's certain needs that the developing brain of the young child has for calm or tuned interaction with the nurturing adults. When the environment is stressed, then the brain of the particularly sensitive child is affected by that stress. And that's been confirmed by science over and over and over and over again since I wrote that book.

Now, the only thing that has changed is that I used to, think that this diagnosis, my diagnosis with ADHD, I used to think these explains things. But actually, the diagnosis don't explain anything at all. Because let's say, in my case, Gabor has been diagnosed with ADHD. Well, how do we know he's got ADHD? Well, he says, he tends to tune out. He's had poor impulse control and he's had trouble sitting still. Well, why does he have poor and post control? Why does he tune out? Why does he have trouble sitting still?

Because he's got ADHD. How do he knows got ADHD? Because he's got poor impulse control and tends to tune out and has trouble sitting still. Why does he have, you know, in other words, these diagnosis don't explain anything. They just describe something. But don't mistake a description for an explanation. If you want an explanation, look at that person's life. Look how sensitive they are genetically.

Look at their environment. Look at the multi-generational family history. Look at the early environment in the womb and on birth and after birth in the family. That's why you can explain things. So the diagnoses are just descriptions of certain traits, but they don't explain anything at all. And this approach that you take, which is like, trauma-informed and very systemic. You're looking at systems, at society, at inequality in society.

It sounds very inconvenient for capitalism. Well, that's why the book is subtitled trauma illness and healing and toxic culture. Capitalism is a toxic culture. Because the fundamental assumption of capitalism is that human beings are individualistic, aggressive, acquisitive, selfish, and competitive.

That's the implicit view and even the explicit view of human nature. So when we talk about Darwinism, in a very wrong way, by the way, we're talking about people relentlessly competing and the strong oppressing the weak.

That's the assumption. But that's not true about human beings. On the contrary, by evolution, we are communal creatures meant to care for each other. And if we hadn't, we would not have evolved as a species. It's that simple. In other words, we're living in a system that makes a fundamental assumption about human beings that's the very opposite of what human evolution and needs actually. would demand, it's a toxic culture.

And the reason why the science that I'm summing up for you in terms of brain development is not even taught in medical schools is very simple. Because if it was, we'd have to question a whole system that we live in. Yeah. And as you say, it's very inconvenient for capitalism to raise. making minds that human beings have needs other than a power of profit and privilege. Are you familiar with how Abraham Maslow's work? Yeah.

He initially, as I understand it, he initially worked with the Blackfoot indigenous people in Canada. And the pyramid of needs, as we understand it, today, is not Maslow's original observations. it's a pyramid that's been co-opted over the years by textbooks to suit capitalism. That's right. And what seems to be left out of, I'm trying to remember the pyramid of needs, but what seems to be left out of it is the need for communality. It's all about individual hierarchy,

but it's not about a communal. Whereas with the Blackfoot, it was very communal. And in your own work, Gabor, have you ever worked with people? populations of people who exist outside of capitalism who what I mean there is maybe indigenous people are systems of living that contradict this capitalistic way this individualistic way that we're conditioned to see as as the norma well I've worked a lot with indigenous people in Canada yeah but and I've learned something of their values and their traditions and their practices and the way I can

sum it up in one phrase and I quote this in the myth of normal. The, uh, an indigenous people greet each other. You know what they say? They see all my relations. Wow. By all my relations, they mean not just other, their relatives. They mean everything they're related to including the trees and the rocks and the animals. And this is how they agree each other. And when I've taken part in certain indigenous ceremonies, such as a sweat lodge, for example. Sweat Lodge is you have this tent, they have a pit in the center,

outside the tent. They fire up these rocks, make them red hot. Then they pulled them into the hole in the center of the pit in the center of the tent, and they pour water on it, so you get this sweat, and they close the door. You get this intense heat, sweating. But when they're dragging in the rocks, they're saying, we're bringing the grandmothers and the grandfathers.

So the rocks are the grandmas and the grandmothers. Now, that may seem fancifully, what's the word, naive or romanticized, but think about it. The Bible says we come from dust to dust. It's true. Those rocks at some point might become part of a human being. Absolutely. And all of our parts, all of our molecules at some point belong to the water. or the earth so that it's not fanciful to call those rocks,

here come the grandfathers and the grandmother. There's actually scientific reality, but it's also a spiritual reality. So I've had the opportunity to experience and to witness this. The problem, of course, in Canada is that because of the colonialism that we discussed at the very beginning of this conversation, these people have been terribly traumatized and oppressed, and that is really distorted their culture and their development

and their families. And, you know, I can... One little fact I can tell you is that in Canada, indigenous women make up 5% of the female population, they make up 70% of the jail population. Wow. Because of colonial trauma

and the same thing is true. In New Zealand, Australia, where an Indian is young man had something like 15 to 20 times. the risk of dying in jail than a Caucasian one. And so that people have their traditions, and these days, indigenous people around the world are rediscovering

and revivifying their traditions, but they're doing it under tremendous colonial strain and in the aftermath of unspeakable of colonial trauma, which continues to this day, as it does in Palestine. And for the listeners, I mightn't be familiar with you, love for you to speak about how the work that you did with people in addiction on the streets of Vancouver and how this informed your view of addiction. By the time I went to work there,

I had certain insights already, you know, but, you know, the changing of a mind is, for me, it was never a sudden dramatic flash of insight. It was usually a process, you know. So working with this heavily addicted population and hearing their life stories and get into know them as people and appreciate them. It's wonderful souls that they were. It deepened my understanding. And then, you know, when I wrote my book on Eviction in the realm of Hungry Ghos,

I also immersed myself in the scientific literature and again what struck me is the gap between medical practice and the science. Because the science is very clear. You know, certain experiences shape the brain in ways that make people more prone for addiction. So that the biology of addiction is an outcome of life experience, and particularly trauma and multigenational trauma. The literature is clear or not, but medical practice completely ignores the science. And so in work in the downtown East of Vancouver

and during the reading and getting to know these people, again, I was struck by the medical ideology in one hand and reality on the other, let alone the ideology of capitalism in general, which is just basically, because the addict is an economic liability, Yeah. He's despised and ostracized.

So if you're addicted to power and profit and you destroy the earth by fomenting climate change, you're considered a great success. Yes. But if you're addicted to cocaine and therefore you can't hold down the job, you're an enemy. You know, it's that simple. And when I ask myself,

which addiction is more harmful for life and society? in the world, well, it's clear. But we ostracized the one who's economically not utilile and useful and we glorified the one that's actually destroying the earth.

And they're both addictions. And I've heard you speak before, Gabor, about the trauma of that rich privilege people have, which not a lot of people want to speak about because we don't want to view. society doesn't want to view those people compassionately because they have more than us. But this week we're all looking at the Epstein files and we're looking at elite people engaging in horrendous acts of abuse.

And these are all really wealthy privileged people. And we're just like, what's going on? You have everything. What are you doing? Well, they have everything except integrity and inner peace. and they want more and more. That's the nature of power. That's the nature of privilege.

That's the nature of profit. The ego wants to keep enhancing itself. And these people are runaway egos, where they don't care damn about the impact of their behavior on other people. Now, we can look at the childhood trauma of a character like a Donald Trump and he's a severely,

He's a poster boy for trauma, as my psychiatrist friend, Bessel van der Koeck says. One can recognize that it's impossible not to see. Every time he opens his mouth, it's an expression of his internal trauma. At the same time, he does a tremendous amount of harm projecting his trauma onto the rest of the world. And that's what these people in the Epstein files did. So whether they're spiritual teachers or entertainment figures or politicians or business people, they were both charmed by the sociopathic charisma of this Epstein. And one can recognize the trauma-based emptiness of their souls.

But at the same time, one has to stand up. and resist their impact on the world. Do you ever feel that the system is set up so that only people who are comfortable with cruelty can succeed in that system? I mean, Jesus, just using something like health insurance companies as an example. Like if you become the CEO of a health insurance company or high up at a health insurance company, the company profits by not by providing people with health insurance, but by denying them health insurance, by denying sick people health insurance.

That system itself seems fairly toxic to me. Well, let me quote you from my book, The Myth of Normal, Chapter 21 is about how cooperation, it's called, they just don't care if it kills you, sociopathic strategy. And what it's about is that the corporations, the food corporations, the health corporations, the resource extraction corporations,

you know, the fuel energy corporations, the cigarette companies, the pharmaceutical companies, they know, they've known for decades, the impact of their activities on the health and lives of human, the devastating impacts. Yeah. Like the sugar companies, the food companies, do you think they don't know?

how their products kill people. Of course they do. They have all the research. So I was talking to speaking to an American endocrinologist who deals with children's glandial problems, endocrine problems, including diabetes. And he says that he's seeing heart disease in kids now that he never used to see because of the foods that people eat and the sugar industry. And he says to me, it's not that they want you to die.

They only want your money. They just don't care if it kills you. And that's the corporations. Not that they want you to die, but they don't care if you do, you know, as long as they make a profit. That's the essence of it. And there's a here I live in Vancouver in Canada. And there's a professor here at the University of British Columbia, who's a world-renowned expert on psychopathy.

his name is Robert R. B. Hare, H-E-R-E, and he said, and I'm going from the myth of normal here, he says, not all psychopaths are in prison, some are in the board room. How do we reduce stress when we can't change the material conditions that are causing the stress? I mean someone who's, they're trapped in their job, and the job is the source of stress, and they don't have the capacity to quit that job because of financial circumstances. How do we manage stress within that prison? Well, that's very difficult.

It's very difficult. I mean, it's for people who are economically constrained to take on demeaning or meaningless, arduous work under unsympathetic bosses and supervisors, who am I to tell them how to do you? have escaped their stress. You know, this is where it becomes not an individual question, but a social question. Yeah.

In a society where unions had power to protect their workers and to fight back and to stand up for their members, that's a very different story. But as you and I both know, over the last several decades, catalysts has been very successful in attenuating the power of unions. Yeah. At least in North America, a much smaller portion of the working forces unionized than used to be. And that's devastating for a lot of people. So for people like that, how do you reduce the stress?

Well, all I have is a bunch of facile words. You got to accept what you can't change. And don't take it personally. In your personal life, do what you can to look after yourself. to look up to your body, to eat well as well as you can, to get into nature, to take some breaths, do some best practice, do some yoga, talk to somebody, share your feelings,

take on activities that give you some sense of meaning, whether it's artistic expression or nature or whatever it is. But, you know, don't indulge yourself in addictive behaviors, to get away from your stress and your pain. It's only going to make it worse for you. It's very easy for me to say these things. And in somebody who's in a tough situation, I don't know what I'd be like

trying to follow my own advice. I want to direct a question at the medical professional in you. You mentioned breathing. What is the power of the breath and breathing over our nervous systems and our mental health? If you look at traditional, ancient spiritual practices, particularly from India.

Yeah. Breath has always been a huge part of it. Because when you look at how human beings breathe, they tend to breathe in a very shallow way. Yeah. And that has to do with stress. And that has to do with the autonomic nervous system. So our nervous system, under conditions of stress and trauma,

are completely disregulated. So breath practices, such as various yoga breathing and various ancient Indian hindah, Kundalini yoga practices and so on, they actually regulate the autonomic nervous system, which can regulate our stresses. So breath practice, very famous spiritual teachers,

once said that, more important than that you should attend a bunch of spiritual retreats and read a lot of spiritual books, take a few conscious breaths every day. So right now, I begin by day with very short, but very conscious breathing practice. And as many times of days I can remember, I'll take four or five very conscious breaths. And that helps to regulate the autonomic nervous system through the, vagus nerve and other mechanisms. And what is that breath, Gabbert, just for the listener?

Like, what is it specifically that you do? Oh, well, there's many breath practices, and I don't claim to be any kind of an expert on them. But the one that I do that I've learned, it's not original to me, is it's called 478. And so it's, I just, you know, you take four breaths in, or you breathe in through the nose through a count of four, like, that's four, and then you hold for a count of seven. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, and then putting your lips, putting your tongue against your teeth, your top teeth, you breathe out through the mouth to a slow count of eight.

So it's four, seven, eight. And you do that four times. And you do that several times a day. And if you wake up at night, you do it again. And that's one particular simple breathing practice. It's called 47, 8. Have you found yourself using that in challenging situations, in emotionally triggering situations?

I do. These days I do. I'm conscious of your time now, Gabber. I just want to say thank you so much for the chat. I've been wanting to speak to you for a very, very long time. And it's been an absolute privilege. Thank you so much. Dog bless. Well, thank you so much for having me.

Have a wonderful evening. So that was my chat with the magnificent Dr. Gabbar Mate. I thoroughly enjoyed that chat. Hopefully he'll come back. At some point, I'd love to have more time with him or to speak to him in person. I'll be back next week. Hopefully with a hot take, I look forward to getting back into my office and sticking my head down and doing some research.

In the meantime, rubber dog, wink at a swan, genuflect to a warm. Dog bless.