The Blindboy Podcast - Ellie Kisyombe & Michelle Darmody

Episode Date: March 20, 2019

Two part podcast. First half: hot takes on Paddys day and the music of Enya. Second half: an interview with Ellie and Michelle, Founders of Our Table, an organisation that raises awareness around the Direct Provision system, using food. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Good day, you juicy bifters. I hope you're having a lovely, lovely time. How are you getting on? Welcome to the Blind Buy Podcast. What's the crack? Before I continue, I made an error on last week's podcast. I announced a live podcast in Waterford on the 23rd of March this week I said that my guests were going to be the lads from Waterford Whisper News unfortunately those lads I had agreed that Waterford Whisper News were going to be the guests but they'd actually cancelled and they had the people who they told anyway that they were going to cancel had never told me.

So when I announced it last week at the podcast, or on last week's podcast when I announced that Waterford Whispers were going to be my guest, Colm from Waterford Whispers texted lads are not going to be on the fucking the Waterford podcast on the 23rd of March I'm going to find a new guest I will be interviewing the lads at some stage though because they're friends of mine and

if you don't know what Waterford Whispers is if you're an international listener Waterford Whispers is like a satirical an Irish satirical website that I've been going for about 10 years, and they're just comedic genius, consistent comedic genius, and not only are they my pals, but also I just have kind of unending love and respect for Waterford Whispers because it's completely and utterly independent totally independent there's no money behind it just straight up very successful

because the comedy and the content is good but alas they will not be my guests in Waterford on the 23rd I'll find somebody else other live dates what have we got

Castle Blaney, in Manahan, on the 30th of March, April the fucking, 5th, I'm in Nace, 6th and 7th, I'm in Vicar Street,

12th, I'm in Whitley Hall, Belfast, and then, 27th, which I'm really fucking looking forward to, I'm coming back to my beloved Cork. I fucking love Cork so much. I've been gigging in Cork for years.

It's just, I don't know, it's like, why do I love Cork so much? It's Limerick's older brother. It's like what Limerick kind of could be. Now I don't mean that in any disrespect to Limerick's older brother. It's like what Limerick kind of could be. Now I don't mean that in any disrespect to Limerick. It's just the people of Cork are culturally quite similar to Limerick people. They sound like Limerick people. But as a city, it just... Either they have more investment or whatever, but... It's just a...

Cork is like Limerick's aspiration. It's a really functioning city where there's a good nightlife and all of this stuff whereas Limerick has always been kind of kind of poor and hard done by and our city center there's not much going on you know Limerick Limerick's uh the best thing about Limerick is always the people the people of Limerick are incredibly fucking friendly funny funny people and the humor of limerick are incredibly fucking friendly funny funny people and the humor of limerick is fantastic but despite what people tell you unfortunately you know um people say oh you come to limerick you're gonna get your head kicked in or you'll be shot or you'll

be stabbed that's all bullshit you know limerick had issues with issues with gang violence 10 years ago. It was a small amount of people, but the press misrepresented it massively. You know, if you're listening to this from the north side of Dublin, you know exactly what I'm talking about, because the media are misrepresenting the north side of Dublin now. So as a result of that, the reputation of Limerick is very unfairly negative. And anyone who's come here will tell you that, that it's an unfair representation. But we could do with a bit more either investment or just more crack. But the people of Limerick are lovely.

Cork people are similar, but there's just more cash in the city, I think. And there's aspirational qualities. Cork looks like an achievable goal if you're from Limerick. So I'm going to be in Cork doing a live podcast in the Opera House, which is my first time doing the Opera House solo as a live podcast. So I can't fucking wait for that. There's a few tickets left. I think it's about 60% sold.

So there are tickets left for the live podcast in cork you beautiful gorgeous singing bastards so this week's podcast is quite long um because it's this is a two-part podcast as such you know so you mightn't even listen to it in one sitting um i'm gonna have some guests on i'm'm going to have Ellie Kisyambe and Michelle Darmody. But before that, I've got a couple of hot takes. I'm going to have hot takes on St. Patrick's Day. It's history. And I have a very impassioned hot take about the music of Enya.

So if you're here for my guests, then you can fast forward like I think 40 minutes or something. I'll just go straight and listen to that. If you don't want to hear me ramble on with hot takes. But we're going to be talking about direct provision, which is an issue that there's a lot of ignorance around and it isn't spoken about enough in wider circles i don't see enough about it in the media so bear with me a few minutes before we get on to that but before we progress i've got two miniature hot takes that i kind of want to just get off my chest this week you know

they're smaller hot takes so they don't merit individual podcasts also i forgot to say this last week the blind by podcast is now available on spotify so most of you listen to this on either itunes or acast that's grand you can continue if that's what works for you but if spotify is your preferred way of listening to podcasts the blind buy podcast is on Spotify if you do choose to have Spotify as the one you listen to please follow the podcast as well that makes a huge difference yart so my first hot take is around St Patrick's Day it was St Patrick's Day on Sunday and St Patrick's day is weird if you live in ireland like if ireland is your home then saint patrick's day is weird and strange because

it's it's a really mad represent it's it's an unrealistic representation of irishness as you live it in Ireland you know like these fucking green hats and green t-shirts and green beers or green beers Guinness green Guinness dying the river green like to people who live in Ireland this is mad it has nothing to do with the actual lived experience of living in fucking Ireland but yes the world over on the 17th of March we kind of have to watch the rest of the world

engage in this really hilarious and strange theatrical pantomime of what they think Irishness is leprechaunsuns green hats parades drinking to excess we do a bit of that in fairness but just a pantomime you know and it's grand so on patrick's day i i tweeted uh now foolish me i now foolish me I've made a promise to myself

I will not tweet hot takes anymore hot takes are for the fucking podcast because when you tweet something Twitter's weird all online is weird but Twitter is

a battlefield it's a very hostile environment. And there's no room, to be honest, anymore for humor or satire on Twitter, especially when it's words. If it's an image, if it's a video, yes, that can be humorous. But when you tweet words on Twitter, we read tweets with our own emotion we project our own tone onto it so when you tweet something that's tongue-in-cheek or funny or amusing people will very quickly take it as serious and can react angrily you know so people a few people reacted angrily to this the other thing too is if you how tweets are presented to us you know

your timeline is a mixture of all different tweets so you can have serious news you can have very inflammatory stuff so your tweet is read in in a scroll of all this stuff so it's very difficult for us to switch emotions rapidly do you know if I read a headline on the Guardian about fascism and that makes me angry and then the next tweet underneath is actually someone making a joke it's hard for me to then immediately switch emotion and laugh so anything tweeted

is open for gross misinterpretation. And I've accepted responsibility for that. I've said to myself, this is how Twitter is. If you don't like being criticised on Twitter, stop tweeting hot takes. So I try not to. I try and keep my content as wholesome and positive as possible. But every so often I'll tweet out a hot take and then regret it because I've incredibly angry people in my mentions and sometimes you can make it worse if you try and defend yourself if you try and say to the person you know what I I meant

that as a joke you can actually make it worse for yourself so the best thing on Twitter is to learn the art of shutting the fuck up 90% of the time I'm good at it every so often a tweet would creep out and then I'll see the responses and I'll go I shouldn't have tweeted that now I I'd have an easier day a much less stressful day if I shut the fuck up and save those hot takes for the podcast so what I tweeted was on Paddy's day I said Saint Patrick's Day as we celebrate it today, is an American tradition, created from the bizarre and addled memories of drunk people traumatised by the famine, who had no photographs to look at.

Their memories were then repeated as annual ritual until it no longer resembled Ireland. Now I tweeted that tongue-in-cheek. now I tweeted that tongue in cheek that's a highly reductive and silly interpretation of Paddy's Day it's pure hot take in that it's it's kind of half true it's one version of the story it's like Patrick's Day is like how we experience St. Patrick's Day now

is full on like it's an American holiday it is like St. Patrick's Day now is full on. Like, it's an American holiday. It is, like, St. Patrick's Day has been in Ireland for years, obviously. It's the celebration of St. Patrick, who apparently brought Christianity to Ireland. But it would have been a religious holiday. And, now, I say the actual proper way to celebrate St. Patrick's Day was probably to climb into a wooden box with a priest and tell him that you've been masturbating recently and spend the rest of the day meditating on the emotion of shame. Now by which I mean it's a Catholic religious fucking holiday.

So Paddy's Day would have been that. A Catholic religious holiday where I think at the moment we're in the middle of lent where you abstain from things so i think in the context of lent patrick's day you would have been allowed to either eat meat or to drink alcohol even before the irish american celebration of St. Patrick's Day. But the Patrick's Day that we kind of see today, Green Guinness, parades, these have their roots in America. They're Irish-American celebrations. Patrick's Day goes back to,

jeez, I think the 1730s in places like America, or sorry, New York and chicago and how it must initially be interpreted is in the 17 fucking 30s up until the 1860s the irish were like very much discriminated against like hugely discriminated against in the way that we'll say syrian refugees are spoken about today that's how the Irish were treated in America 1700s 1800s Patrick's Day came out of that as a way to you know for an outcast people to join together to be fraternal to celebrate to have a sense of pride also you know a genuine

show of force it's like there's a lot of us here you sure you want to fuck with us there's a bit of that too but also a kind of a green rosy tinted memory of the past a kind of a faux nationalism but throughout the years this has become traditionalism but throughout the years this has become people living in ireland to the irish people today when we look at patrick's day parades in america it's kind of funny to us it's like we don't even know what that is that's i guess that's that's a version of irishness that's been passed down and perverted and remixed throughout the years but to us it's like that's not how we live our lives we don't know what corned beef and cabbage is doesn't exist here we don't want our Guinness to be green

quite a lot of people drink craft beer now we don't dye things green we don't give that much of a fuck about green to be honest shamrocks don't mean much to us over here shamrocks again are an irish-american thing um i know there's the old legend of patrick used the shamrock to represent the stations of the cross but the the iconic fetishization of the shamrock is an irish-american

thing that was sold back to us so the in our interaction with St. Patrick's Day is is a touristy thing Ireland started to adopt St. Patrick's Day in the early 20th century because by the early 20th century the Irish in America had stopped being oppressed and had become they were starting to become quite powerful especially within like the police force the democratic party so Ireland in the early 20th century especially as well when Ireland got independence from Britain wanted Americans to come back there's a lot of pandering done to Irish Americans come over here with your fucking money and spend it to fuck because we're poor that type of attitude and like we don't care

if you think that leprechauns are real just spend some money that's the relationship it's strange um so when i put out the tweet i'm like you know i was i was being i was hot taken i was being silly it's unfair to say that it's you know that that Patrick's day is just this ridiculous drunken memory of Irishness there's much more than that it's political do you know and how the Irish Americans express and experience Patrick's day is completely valid you know if that's their way of getting fraternity having a sense of identity brilliant I'm very cautious of I try really hard not to be the person who's

telling people to stop having fun in a different way to how I have fun that's always the worst take, you know and I always try and police myself around it, every so often I'll get caught, but I'm very cautious of like not shitting on someone because they like a certain type of music or like i don't like sports

at all i don't get sports but i i try not to shit on other people for enjoying sports other people are having fun in a way that's different to how i have fun that's fucking fine as long as no one's getting hurt that's absolutely grand um one critique i have of we'll say irish american culture it doesn't embrace the oppression of black people it you you can't speak about irish american culture without speaking about how the irish became the powerful political force that they are today like irish americans are very powerful just look at the people in the white house irish america has a very powerful lobby this the irish gained their power by acts of utter racism and brutality towards black people and that is an undeniable historical fact the turning point and just one

example of it the new york city draft riots of 1860 i believe could be 1860. What this was is the American Civil War was happening. There was massive amounts of Irish immigrants coming into New York, huge amounts. So what happened is the American government brought in a draft so that newly very, very poor working class Irish people living in New York in the Five Pints district around Manhattan were conscripted and being sent to fight the Confederates in the South. Essentially, the simplistic version of why the American Civil War was fought was to end slavery, right? So the dirt poor working class Irish Americans inicans in the slums of new york were like

fuck this i'm after leaving the famine in ireland to come over here and have a new life and as soon as i get here you want me to go and fucking give my life for what so the irish rioted had a huge fucking riot in new york. But unfortunately, instead of... They did take their anger out on the buildings and took their anger out on the established power in New York, but they also hung a couple of hundred black people for simply being black. Massive, massive racial violence.

Lynching and hunting down black people because the Irish- americans were like you're the reason this civil war is happening they want to send me to mississippi to die on a battlefield to free you so i'm gonna hang you that is a part of irish american history that doesn't get spoken about it doesn't't get represented. Just look at the film The Gangs of New York, a very romanticised version of how the Irish started as a gang culture and then became powerful, completely erases the racism and violence that the Irish committed against black people in America.

Absolutely erases it. And it's erased from a lot of narratives about Irish America. That needs to be acknowledged and needs to be stitched into the narrative as a recognisable pain do you know what I mean? you can't just go oh poor old Paddy my ancestors were dark poor and they come over here on a coffin ship

it's like yeah and then you went to America and power was grabbed through acts of brutality which not only the 1840s what could be argued continued long on by the irish assimilating their power into the police forces and the fire brigade and the acts of brutality that were committed against black people through the american police these are all part of the conversation of the irish diaspora so you can't just leave out the bits that are inconvenient or embarrassing or disgusting the that racism is embarrassing and disgusting but you have to take ownership of it you have to go yeah that's part of the narrative too do you know what i mean also irish americans to this day saying that irish people were slaves too and saying irish people were slaves too as a way to dismiss the voices of black people today Irish people were never fucking slaves

there was a small chance that you were descended from Irish indentured servants in the Caribbean in the 16th, 1700s yes there were Irish people brought against their will to be indentured servants but they were not slaves

they were not chattel slave they were not generational property they were afforded basic humanity no matter how shittily they were not chattel slave they were not generational property they were afforded basic humanity no matter how shittily they were treated the irish were never slaves please don't continue that myth um if you're an irish american even out of ignorance don't do that please it's it's disrespectful to your own ancestors. But where's my hot take? Here's a hot take I was thinking of. So Patrick's Day is celebrated the world over. Right?

It's like nearly every fucking country in the world. Because there's so many Irish people have been dispersed all around the world. And here's one hot take that I think is valid and could be made hugely, hugely relevant today. The thing with Paddy's Day is that it really only serves Irish interests. You know, it's about Irish identity. It keeps the name Ireland on people's tongues. You could be argued that the reason, like Ireland's fucking tiny, really tiny country. And people know about it because of things like Paddy's Day.

It's like, here's the day once a year where all the green people come out and get pissed do you know and it's representation of some description whether it's negative or positive it is representation part of the reason that the colour green

is fetishised so much within Patrick's Day culture it's not just because of the association with the colour green and Irish nationalism. You have to think of a person from, we'll say, West Cork or Kerry or Galway in the 1820s suddenly leaving and finding their way to New York, okay? New York in the 1820s, 1830s, especially where the Irish lived, in the Five Points district of Manhattan, were terrible, horrible industrial slums. Disgusting places where there wasn't even footpaths in the Five Points.

You sludged around on black mud that was full of shit and the air was acrid with smoke from factories and it was full-blown horrible exploitative industrialism where people didn't have workers rights and you had a disgusting slum-like life where your body was slowly eroded by pollutants and industry and Irish people started to fetishize the memory of trees and meadows and green grass it's like Paddy's Day part of its iconography and its meaning comes from I'm now living in a polluted place where there's nothing but concrete and smoke and the beautiful green fields and the clear air and and the fucking trees are a memory of my past so i'm gonna latch on to that i think paddy's day in order to be a genuine force for good and change because the infrastructure already exists here we have this thing. That's celebrated all over the world.

And is green. Why doesn't Paddy's Day. Start to. Become more and more about saving the environment. Why doesn't Paddy's Day take on. Like it can still be fucking Irish. It can still be the Irish diaspora. But.

Instead of us celebrating. Our heritage. We're celebrating the future and the future is we need to do something about industry we need to do something about global warming here is this celebration that's rooted in the horrors of an industrial slum and trying to remember what trees were like take that and go in 50 fucking years this could be the world in 50 years we could be trying to remember what grass looked like because of desertification

this isn't sensationalism this is what science is telling us so why doesn't Paddy's Day do that the world over this massive 17th of fucking April the greenness that we're celebrating is, what can we do for the future? How can we stop the fucking, this happening?

Now my fear around that is, the Irish-American lobby is very powerful and stuck into industry and politics. And in order to have a decent conversation about the environment, as we've established before, 70% of the global warming issues are happening not because of you and me not recycling 70 percent is because of industry 100 companies 100 very powerful companies are causing the worst of the global warming Which is both terrifying and relieving. It's terrifying because it's like how do we let it get to that.

But there's a sense of relief because. To stop it looks somewhat achievable. To stop 100 companies is a clear goal. To make them account for what they're doing to the environment. So there's my hot take. Why doesn't Paddy's Day. Re rebrand itself you know take note of its past rooted essentially in a form of environmentalism and then take that going forward and go this is the new thing 17th of march the world world where's fucking green and politicians are held

to account and actual change has to fucking happen now i don't think that's too nuts i don't think that's too mad and there's also like i mentioned there if you know an inextricable part of the irish american experience is horrible acts of brutality against black people in amer America which is something that is shameful and embarrassing embrace it and go looking forward

you know if we have this darkness in our narrative and this darkness in our past how about we try and change that towards something positive and look at saving the fucking world and look at not utterly exploiting the fucking natural resources of Africa which is happening right now and contributing to

to the massive global warming that we're experiencing and the disaster that's around the corner so this is like a two part podcast this week in that the first half i'm gonna have my two little hot takes and then the second half i'm gonna go to an interview that i wanted to put out my second hot take which is not big enough for me to do a whole episode on but something that i've been thinking about before i continue as you know i care deeply about music i speak about music a lot on this podcast i try my best to make music incredibly accessible um for people who maybe have a passing interest in it

the next 15 minutes i'm going to get borderline very very nerdy with music to the point that it might even be selfish so if you're not mad about my music podcasts i'd go forward 15 minutes because i'm going to be going a bit deep into how music is critically received and how we read music in our culture and how we ascribe meaning to music um so it could be like me having to listen to someone talk about soccer you know not not everyone uh analyzes and cares about music the way someone like myself would some people just have it on in the background and that's fine you know that's fine in relation to a couple of weeks ago you know when i was speaking about the impact of the Prodigy, and I was talking about, you know, the Prodigy are massive, they're fucking huge,

you know, international band, especially for their live music, but I don't feel they get, they have massive commercial success and they're considered legends, but there's an extra level of respect that they're not afforded, we'll say for their songwriting, their creativity, their production, their innovation. I just don't think the Prodigy get that level of respect around that that they deserve. Another artist who I feel, and I only noticed this the other night is in the same kind of category is Enya right now Enya is

like she's massive like she's the second biggest Irish selling artist next to you too Enya's global she's fucking huge right

ubiquitous like in Ireland of, Enya's global, she's fucking huge, right, ubiquitous, like in Ireland, of course Enya's popular, but she's far more popular outside of Ireland, she kind of reminds me a little bit as well of, her success is quite similar to Mr Bean's, now I know that sounds utterly insane but let me explain like Mr Bean Mr Bean gets written off as not being very good it's not Mr Bean is very well written well crafted slapstick comedy and clever and it draws upon the traditions of clowning and all of this type of stuff so I've utmost respect for Mr Bean but Mr Bean also doesn't use any any words so because it doesn't use words massively popular around the globe and yeah similarly um a lot of the time she doesn't even sing in english so she's huge in like china uh parts of Eastern Europe, South America. Language barrier isn't a thing with Enya.

So there's no dispute that Enya is massive and hugely globally popular. But however, when you search again for people, like I'm talking music producers, journalists, making the serious, serious case for Enya as an innovator. That's quite lacking for the amount of sales she's had, for the size of Enya. The actual critical, serious respect for her work is kind of non-existent for someone with that many sales it doesn't exist

and i remember like i was only a child now but i do remember anya being in the charts like she was really treated as as cringe territory like really considered her music was considered unbelievably embarrassing like you wouldn't dream listening to Enya and it was seen as like like this embarrassing thing that Ireland exported and dumb foreign people have been tricked that was kind of the Enya narrative and it's completely and utterly unfair it's absolutely unfair um like okay one of the most obvious reasons that i can think of is is misogyny um the space within music criticism that allows for women artists to be considered genius and innovators like music in general is quite exclusionary of women but in the territory of genius and innovator women are very much written

out written out like i mean delia derbyshire who's delia derbyshire you ask like delia derbyshire is is she was making music in the 50s and 60s, a huge innovator of electronic music, like fucking ridiculous. The shit that Aphex Twin gets credit for in the 90s, Delia Derbyshire was doing that in the early 60s and it wasn't even viewed as music, you know. But I'll be doing a podcast on Delia at some point. Not taking away from Aphex Twin. Aphex Twin is a pioneer of electronic music but like i said before music is a conversation and Delia Derbyshire kind of started a lot of his sentences but i don't think she's spoken about enough so the other thing that i think why Eya doesn't get the the proper critical respect and respect

as an innovator is she was lumped into a genre called new age and new age it's it's not far off as a genre it's kind of like labeling something as novelty you know i spoke a few weeks ago about how i hate the term novelty novelty music it devalues the artistry of music to call something novelty new age is similar because when you call music new age it's music music in that genre is put forward as something that you don't listen to for pleasure you listen to it as a form of therapy that it's it's not aesthetic it's functional you know it's just someone farting away on a synthesizer to make something that makes you feel relaxed do you know so the term new age it's it's an unfair it strips something of its artistic and innovative value.

Because a lot of new age music, in fairness, it is actually just created from a functional point of view. It is actually just recordings of whales with generic synthesizers over them. A lot of new age music is that and the people who are making it aren't specifically looking for any credit. It's elevator music okay but Enya was consistently put in this category as well when she was being declared for awards she was put in the new age category and that that immediately strips value from it. It strips that critical value. Unfairly. Her music would have been...

Even South Park did an episode where they had Enya's music as the example of what it felt like to be old. And we associated her music with, oh, that's what old people listen to when they can't have any loud noises anymore. All incredibly unfair. Another close example as well. Vangelis.

Vangelis is somebody who would be considered new age but managed to cross over. Vangelis did the soundtrack to Blade Runner and some other films. But Vangelis is rightly seen as an innovator and a genius and a pioneer of electronic and synthesized music he you know brought real orchestral symphonic energy and moods but he did this with synthesizers in the late 70s and early 80s so deserving of the not only huge sales but actual critical respect from both music journalists and people who make music and you does not get that i why not she deserves it like she came from you know an irish traditional music background with Clannad in the 70s and then said fuck that and ended up on on

this route that no one else had done like we speak about someone like uh Tom Waits Tom Waits would have done something kind of similar but even when you put it against Enya there's no comparison like Tom Waits started with a a jazz tradition and then in 1980 with swordfish trombones fucked off in another direction and did this very creative new thing similarly Frank Zappa I I think like critically Enya does need to be placed in a Tom Waits and Frank Zappa territory. Horslips are another example. Horslips are a 1970s Irish heavy rock band who took Irish traditional music and mixed it in with heavy rock and in fairness to them that was original and that was pioneering. They wouldn't have a fraction of Enya's record sales but they would have a lot more

artistic they would be considered to have a lot more artistic cred they would be viewed with a more critical eye than Enya Enya took fucking Irish music and she came from a very deep tradition but mixed it in with ambient electronica

before that was even cool before it was even a thing so there's another kind of case for that argument um if you're a music head now listening to this you're probably shaking your head massively or you might agree with me i don't know but how when you like she was using keyboard she was using synths like uh she was using yamaha dx7 and all that and one of the juno synths which are rave synths and she was incorporating this into irish irish traditional mystical music that's an insane level of vision and an insane level of courage

of vision and an insane level of courage and yes it was commercially fucking successful but it needs an like you know tom waits is commercially successful too so is frank zappa not not to the scale of enya but they also are allowed to be considered innovative geniuses who you know were ahead of their time who used like again take it back to afx twin you know afx twin gets huge amount of praise deservedly so for electronic innovation where's any praise for electronic innovation? You'll find one or two people if you Google it. But when you compare the level of praise that she gets as an artist, critically, nothing to do with sales, as an artist, when you compare that against the amount of sales that she has,

it's practically non-existent. And fucking Brian Eno. You know, I'm not shitting on Brian Eno. Brian Eno is deserving of the credit he gets for innovation. But Brian Eno is someone as well who unapologetically released music for airports. You know, straight up. It's like this is functional music to make people feel relaxed in airports. And then everyone sucking his dick is a genius.

You know, that's new age to an extent. It's like, here's some functional music. And Brian Eno gets the respect. I just think that needs to be... Someone needs to be out there singing those praises right now. There needs to be a reassessment from a technical production creative and artistic point of view for this irish fucking artist who created her own genre and again it's it's like abba it's it's it can be hard to go like with abba it's hard to go back and listen to ABBA with fresh ears even though ABBA are so

important to modern pop like modern pop we said the roots would be more town and the Beatles as such now by pop I mean bubblegum radio pop music which unapologetically just wants to be really catchy okay so the beatles are one really important group in that respect and so are uh motown diana ross and the supremes uh fucking martha reeves and the vandellas anything written by holland dozy or holland i think was the team in Motown that established the catchy and the Beach Boys as well let's not forget about the Beach Boys that established we'd say modern pop a catchy hook verse chorus verse maybe a middle eight but then ABBA came along in the early 70s

and what they brought to pop music was the idea of multiple hooks and now a hook is the catchy part in the song that you remember what abba did abba said okay the beatles might have two hooks in their music or the motown might have three abba were like fuck that let's have eight let's have eight hooks let's have multiple parts of the song that are really catchy. That's now the norm in pop music. Pop music that's written by the likes of Max Martin. Like, you know, Ariana Grande. Lady Gaga in particular.

You listen to a Lady Gaga song, you'll find five or six separate bits that could almost exist as their own songs because they're so catchy and so ABBA are incredibly important now they do get a bit of respect they do get a bit of respect from songwriters in that respect they do get a lot more respect than Enya would get we'll say but it can be hard to listen to ABBA because the music is so overplayed and we're so familiar to it to go to ABBA's music with fresh ears and extract everything you know about them and all the cultural connotations that you have and to actually

just listen to the music to do that is just like fucking hell this is genius Enya is the exact same and it was difficult for me to do because like i said i grew up in a culture where enya was considered embarrassing useless music and it was spoken about as if she's tricking the world and we should be embarrassed by it so to sit down and listen to enya with fresh ears and actually go fuck me did she just take irish music and mix rave synths with it and sometimes she's not even speaking in english she's got her own language going on this is her own genre and to take it back to just to how how genres and labels are used within music to either as codified words that add or take critical value new age is a term that

takes critical value from music it means music that operates on a functional basis novelty similarly or not even novelty comedy comedy music is a bad word when you hear this music is comedy music we think oh it's just there to make you laugh uh that's a function therefore it must not have value artistically as as music but when you say music is satirical this satirical music then you can go all right it's probably really artistically strong music um and it's got satire. But I don't really see a difference between comedy music and satire other than the label.

Similarly, new age music. The appropriate, the term for new age music that has, we'll say, critical rigor would be ambient music. So if you call something ambient music, then it's allowed to be cool then it's allowed to have credibility and artistic value but you say new age music and it it stops having

critical rigor anymore any of stuff why is it called new age and not ambient because if you look at the ambient music that she's clearly gone on to influence um fucking Radiohead stuff after KD um I would imagine a lot of AFX Twin stuff is Enya influenced especially the the earlier ambient works that AFX Twin did I hear a lot of Enya in there who else Boards of Canada you know they're an ambient group would have huge artistic credibility most definitely influenced by Enya. Grimes I hear a lot of Enya in Grimes even though she's not ambient but she would use elements of it. Ambient music has got a new credibility and respect these days I think in particular how because we listen to music through Spotify. And people search Spotify more for. Moods than genres.

People will throw on a big load of fucking ambient music. Either to calm down. Or to study. Or to relax. And in 2019 this is okay. It's not. The credibility isn't stripped. In the way that New Age was.

So look. You know you can disagree with me me I'm not saying you have to know going like any his music in the same way that you might like the prodigy or a fixed twin taste is subjective but you know innovation and creativity they're not subjective they're objective and you know you will find people you know you're going to find people in the know who will actually be going yeah any any is a creative innovative genius i've known her all along and you'll find one or two critics also making this case i'm not saying it doesn't exist but i mean what are her sales I think she sold 30 million albums okay

30 fucking million albums that's it's Michael Jackson territory it's huge 30 million albums sold versus the amount of people actually crediting her

as an innovative genius that's the problem you know 30 million albums a handful of articles actually discussing her artistic innovation that's not acceptable

I don't think that's acceptable personally moving on so like I said two part podcast this week going to be very long if you've been listening from the start you could have gone forward an hour if that's what you wanted to do if you just wanted to go straight to the interview it's it's a podcast you see so it's your choice you don't

like it this is probably going to be three hours long possibly about that i'd say if not a little bit under you can listen to it by yourself across a little bit under you can listen to it by yourself across a couple of days you can listen to it in one or you can skip the first half and listen to what you want it's a podcast so you have complete control or autonomy so we'll do the banjo pause so that i can insert the on april 5th you must be very careful, Margaret. It's a girl. Witness the birth. Bad things will start to happen. Evil things of evil.

It's all for you. No, no, don't. The first omen. I believe the girl is to be the mother. Mother of what? Is the most terrifying. Six, six, six. It's the mark of the devil. Hey!

Movie of the year. It's not real. It's not real. It's not real. Who said not real. What's not real? Who said that? The First Omen, only in theaters April 5th. Will you rise with the sun to help change mental health care forever? Join the Sunrise Challenge to raise funds for CAMH,

the Center for Addiction and Mental Health, to support life-saving progress in mental health care. From May 27th to 31st, people across Canada will rise together and show those living with mental illness and addiction that they're not alone. Help CAMH build a future where no one is left behind. So, who will you rise for? Register today at sunrisechallenge.ca. That's sunrisechallenge.ca.

The mid-roll fucking adverts or whatever they're called for Acast. So here's the banjo pause. There you go. Not one mistake this week um right also this podcast is supported by you the listener via the Patreon page patreon.com forward slash

the blind boy podcast if you enjoy the podcast if you like it it's supported by you you are the patron of this podcast by subscribing to the patreon giving me the price of a pint or a cup of coffee once a month you are supporting my life essentially you're supporting my existence that's that's my wage i know how much money i get every month now for the first time in my life as a professional artist which is a fucking amazing feeling it is an incredible feeling

I feel like I have a job do you get me? I've always had a job I was an artist but you don't know where your money is coming from you could get a nice paycheck this month and wait six months for the next one and

not have any freedom to buy something nice for yourself because you're going get a nice bit i got a nice bit of money this month better squirrel it all away or pay the fucking electricity bill i definitely can't uh you know fucking buy a few pairs of jeans or some shit like that so thank you if you're a patron thank you you are fucking changing my life um it's a soundless basis everyone gets the same podcast you don't have to be a patron if you don't want to some people do some people don't god bless you so let's move on to part two of this podcast, which is a live podcast that I did in the Sugar Club about two months ago with two guests, Elie Kaziambe and Michelle Darmody. Now this podcast is about direct provision. Direct provision is like, it's a human rights abuse as such that's kind of being carried out in Irelandireland uh for the

past 20 years it's not spoken about really in the media uh people in direct provision aren't really given a huge amount of representation in the irish media it's something that's swept under the carpet in my opinion it's it's this generation's magdalene Laundry so I brought onto the podcast uh Ellie Kiziambe is she herself is has been living is living and has been living in direct provision for over 10 years she's the first person in direct provision who'll be running for local election Michelle Darmody is uh a chef and a food writer and she's doing a PhD on food I believe but Ellie and Michelle Darmody created an organization called Our Table which it aims to raise awareness around direct provision using food and they're a pair of legends and just give it a listen give it a listen this

it's important stuff and we had good crack as well what is the crack how are you getting on um can you be mind the keep the microphones close if you can. Okay. Hello. Yeah. So, if you could introduce yourselves, first of all. My name is Ellie Kishombe. I'm an Irish asylum seeker woman, so I moved from Malawi, I should say so. And I'm almost a decade living here in Ireland in direct provision system my name is Michelle Darmody I'm a food writer and I've always been interested in using food

as a way to communicate and I think it's just something that we all have in common and we all eat every day so like I'm doing a PhD now looking at food so writing about food so exploring food in all its different capacities. So can you tell us what, like from the start, what our table is and how it began? I said it started in 2014, 15? 14, end of 14. Yeah, we meant end of 14, yeah.

But in, for the lads to know, to know in, for the lads to know, to know, in direct provision, the people in direct provision can't cook their own food. Yeah, so I think I should best start that part. So I moved over here almost a decade ago to seek political asylum. So I'm coming from Malawi where my family, I'm coming from a very strong political family. Where is Malawi in Africa? So Malawi, it's Southern Africa, Mozambique, Zambia, Zimbabwe, South Africa going up there. So when I arrived here in Ireland, I was accepted to enter in the country.

So maybe I should just give two definitions of refugees and asylum seekers. So a refugee is somebody who they've been come over to any country that they've been assigned from where they're coming from, like Lebanon, Syria, Eritrea, Congo, Rwanda, as program refugees. So when they're coming here, when they are coming to every country, which is a country which they might feel safe, they are already programmed. So they are already given the title as a refugee so they are allowed in their country straight away.

So an asylum seeker is somebody that you found yourself a formal of how to travel to get to the safe country that you are going to go and when you are upon your arrival you can be accepted to enter into the country. So when you've accepted to enter into the country, you ask for asylum.

And if you've accepted, they let you in the country. So you live in that country from one or two days or a week. In Ireland, it takes up to, now it's a 19 year system, so 19 years now. 19 years. 19 years, yeah.

And how long have you been in direct provision? So I've been in direct provision almost 10 now. Yeah. So the system was started in 2000, and it was just started by a temporary measure to accommodate asylum seekers when they were coming here in Ireland. Because I think in the early 90s, late 90s,

Ireland didn't see a lot of people that were coming over to Ireland because I think in the early 90s, late 90s, Ireland didn't see a lot of people that were coming over to Ireland to seek asylum. So they didn't even have that fear of how they could make like a place for the people that are coming in to stay in there. So what they did in I think around 1999, 1997, 96, 97, they saw a lot of numbers of people which were not too many.

So when they saw the numbers, they figured out, okay, how can they make it better for the people that are coming to find a temporary accommodation while they are seeking for a longer term accommodation for these people that have entered into the country. So for my 10 years living here in Ireland and for somebody who also I'm an activist I'm a human rights activist and I think Ireland has a thing that they're not prepared they're not ready of when and what and what if so I think that was just like okay we just get this thing and we bring these people and leave them there and it's done. I sure it will be grand.

And it's done. We're all good. We give them lasagna, cod or, and yeah, they're good. Yeah. I think that was it. So, and then after like, I think 2000 and then the numbers started growing. So in that, you know, like this system was planned when there was what happened and what if. So I think they're lost in the way. A really quick temporary solution is consistently being used as a long-term solution, and that's not workable.

It is a long-term process, and I think they actually don't know what to do now. And we are at the point point of whereby. I think the system needs to go and we need to find ways of how people can be accommodated because as we see now with the climate change and the change of environment and people are living every day and

we're going to see a lot of numbers and with Brexit and a lot of things going on in the European Union, there'll be a lot of stuff that's going to affect it. And I think now, me as an asylum seeker and as also a migrant, I feel like Ireland, we are at a really good place that if we can find a solution to the problems that we have now, we won't become bad as the way England has or America has.

And I feel like it's a duty for us as, you know, this generation to not let it go beyond us. Because if we let it go beyond us, then we're going to have a problem, and it's going to be us, our children, and our great-grandchildren. Because these people who are lined up now that they started this system,

they won't be here for another 50 years. So we have to think about us. So could you mention to the audience some of the restrictions that are put on the life of a person living in direct provision? Yeah, so when I arrived there at the airport, I seeked asylum and I was

accepted. So I was taken into a Baseskin reception center, which is in St. Margaret's Road. That's where everyone who seeks asylum, you know, they are there to... It's a process system which takes from one to two weeks or to four weeks. So when you are there, you are taken into this place

where you find many other people coming from different areas and you share a room, and it's about one to four people, four beds in that room. So you live with people from different from a different country. Sometimes even people that you don't even speak many languages, same language and some of them that maybe they don't even

understand English. So that's the setup. And then you go in the morning, you go get your breakfast and then you come back at 12. You go back maybe sleep or watch a little bit TV and then you go back and you have lunch. And then you go back maybe sleep or watch a little bit of TV, and then you go back and you have lunch. And then you go back again at dinner time, and you get your dinner, and you go back.

So while you've moved there, then you are taken into another center that's going to be your home from that day to 10 years, to 12 years, to 15 years. So you are moved alongside other direct provision centers. As I'm talking now, we have 39 direct provision centers, as they've said, because the numbers have risen since after the Brexit, and we have a lot of numbers coming here to Ireland. So now the centers are growing up. And you've also heard what's happened in Shannon and what's happened in Donago. These are some of the problems.

So when you are there, you're taken to outskirts of our island, and then these centers are set up like the old hotels or the convents or the army camps and stuff like that. So you live there, and you live in a room. So if you have small toddlers, like kids, and then you live with these kids in a room so if you have like small toddlers like kids and then you live with these kids in one room like we're you're talking about a hotel double bedroom so you live there basically from you know that day you get in there and um you are the little things that they've changed recently but before uh when you're alive there you are not allowed to go for third-level education. Kids can go to school up to live in set, but you're not

going for third-level education. And not only that, you get 29 euro a week, and you're not allowed to cook. Basically, you don't have, like, any... Are people allowed to, like, cook in their rooms? Are they allowed to, like,

buy a toaster? No, no, you can't. Because actually, if you're single, like when I was coming, I'm a mother anyway, but when I was coming, I come here by myself because I had to leave first. So as you're single, you live with other four people. So you can imagine if everyone wants, if I want to cook food from Southern Africa

and somebody wants to cook from Nigeria and somebody wants to cook from, you know, it's going to be chaotic and it's just a small room. So you don't have that chance of cooking in there. And even if you're a family, you're not allowed because there's no cooking facility, you know, like the way the hotel room is. It's just like a bed

and the toilet. So you don't have a room to make food there. So there's nothing. It sounds as well to me like a system whereby adults are treated like children. It sounds as well to me like a system whereby adults are treated like children. It's very hard to live in direct provision, mainly for somebody who

you have your independent, and I think also I want people to start understanding that become a refugee or an asylum seeker, it can happen to even somebody like you. Irish people did move and went to America, Australia, another country through the famine time. So it doesn't even really need that it has to be somebody that, you know, walks

from the Irish show with no shoes. I'm coming from a very strong political family. And I have to be honest with you, I grew up in a very good childhood that even now, I wouldn't even see myself like what I've been, you know, what I've been through. But unfortunately, I lost my parents and I lost many members of families through the struggles that we went through, and coming from where you're coming from when you're involved in politics, there's so much frustration that... Yeah, so why

did you seek asylum? No, I seek asylum because of political reasons, and I lost my dad, I lost my uncle. My father was somebody who viewed politicians, and my uncle was a vice president for the opposition party. And even through that, me, myself, I grew up in this blood,

and then I started becoming very, very active in politics and being angry for what I've grown up seeing. So those are the reasons. And as maybe you followed me here in Ireland, I'm a very opinionated person, so that's me. So if I was in Malawi, it couldn't end up really well.

I would have lost my life because I've lost many people and some of my friends. So that's why I had to leave and come to Ireland. So Michelle, when did our table come about? You were a food writer. Were you a cook as well? When did you then start... When did Our Table come about? Like, what's... You were a food writer.

Were you a cook as well? Yeah, I have run food businesses for the... I suppose the last 12 years, and I had heard about direct provision and kind of learnt more about it, and I suppose the idea of cooking kind of really resonated with me because that's something that I do every day. I love to cook, and the idea that you couldn't sit around a table

and share your meal with your family. You know, if you have children, you can't cook and teach them the traditions that, you know, from your own country, from your own family. So that had just really upset me and it really annoyed me, among loads of other problems in direct provision.

But that was the one that really resonated with me. And I approached the Irish Refugee Council and just suggested that, like, I've worked in food businesses in Ireland and I would love to try and do a project around food and using food as the connection with people. And also I think food, it was a really good way to bring empathy into it and to bring solidarity.

Irish people in the wider community could really relate to that one particular idea. So I went into the Irish Refugee Council and Ellie was interning there at the time, so we just clicked and started chatting. And at the beginning we went five or six times to this kitchen out near Rathmines and we just cooked, we just brought loads of vegetables and fish

and no it was different mainly women actually from direct provision came and chopped and cooked and it was just really emotional, it was really simple and just people who hadn't been allowed to cook for so long and suddenly there was a bag of. It was really simple and just people who hadn't been allowed to cook for so long and suddenly there's a bag of vegetables from your own country and we just shared recipes and chatted.

From that then there was loads of discussion about this could be used as awareness building. So for me it was really the idea that we can get the message out there through food and through a nice story and a gentle story that maybe a Saturday newspaper is going to talk about this idea that we're all cooking together where they might not talk about the harsh realities of direct provision quite as easily so from that we did a two-day event in the project art center in Temple Bar gave us just free space they're amazing they said use

our space for whatever you want so we did we did a two-day pop-up and we kind of expected I don't know 50 people to come along we didn't think and then about 300 people literally came through the door on the first day we were just sitting there going oh my god

luckily we did enough food and everyone just sat and it was a bit donation based people could leave some money donate and we got some media involved and just got the conversation started about the fact that people

are not allowed to cook in direct provision and from that I think we kind of all got really energised and then decided to do a longer version so we did three months again in the provision. And from that, I think we kind of all got really energised and then decided to do a longer version. So we did three months again in the Project Art Centre, and that was much more about training.

So we used the space. So there's also the problem when you leave direct provision. I mean, Ellie's been particularly active, but there's a lot of people who maybe don't have the energy and the ability and the resources or the courage to go out. So a lot of people mightn't have worked. They just haven't. They can find yourself in a state of limbo

after six or seven years in a system that's so demeaning. And we were trying to provide a space where people, if they were interested in the catering industry, could come and learn. We did barista training. We did health and safety training. We did different training within the space. Really safe space.

Everyone got paid a living wage, and people could work and just learn from that experience. So that was the impetus for the three-month project that we did. And then from then, Ellie's been really taking over the mantle and working loads at the moment, using the kitchen and the basement of Christchurch Cathedral. They've been really generous and just given that kind of open space to use and making hot sauces and doing loads of different projects.

But generally, the idea is using food as a solidarity conversation. Is it food that's available for sale to the public? Those projects were, yeah. Yeah, so that's available for sale to the public? Those projects were, yeah. Yeah, so that's where we've grown now. So we like social enterprise at the moment, yeah. And did you find that like... Because one of the things that you were speaking there about direct provision is people from different parts of the world, so you can't speak necessarily like i've

heard that in different direct provision centers there's new almost languages farming because there's so many people with different yeah different language we have over um i don't have facts on that but i can just assume that maybe we have over people that speaks 20 languages so we are very very different diverse of people I think like how the food broken down in our table in a relation of integration and also the people from direct provision before I met with Michelle so we were doing like a bit of work like gardening and stuff like that trying to bring asylum seeker and also like I've been very very much active like what Michelle said and

I you know like it was just coming here and then tell the story and sometimes you cry because you are carrying a lot of baggages and you bring ten people that I have different traumatizing stories but then the food thing it really changed that the way people saw us. They saw me differently. They didn't see me as somebody who come with that story that was really strong. And then we end up like, I'm going through a problem. Because everyone is going through hard stuff.

And no one don't want you to go there and to traumatize them again. As much as we have so much going on. So I think food kind of like gives us a therapy that, you know, like we'll cry but then we'll be like, you know, the food is nice. But at least we're crying on the other side. So it was very good. It was really great. So that's what our table did.

So it wasn't like cutting the placards, like taking the banners at the Justice Ministry. But now it was food. And it was food in spaces whereby people didn't even expect an asylum seeker to cook food. Because this

is one thing I wanted to, is there would be people in direct provision who are dealing with trauma from what they escaped, and then on top of that, the trauma of the existence of being in direct provision and not having a sense of that this the trauma of the existence of being in direct provision and not having a sense of freedom or a sense of place is do you feel that their mental health is adequately provided for our

other mental health services within direct provision you know like the host system it's a sham right's nothing right about it. And the whole language barrier, it's another problem that even I myself, I speak good English, but I can't take 12-hour conversation with you. It's going to overwhelm me. So you're dealing with somebody that has limited understanding of English. It's a big problem. That itself, it's a mental health issue, right? Before even that mental health problem comes in.

So you're talking with somebody who, even on a language barrier, they don't even have communications. And these people that works through these direct provision centers, they have so much power. They have so much power that a guard in a direct provision center

can act like a minister of justice if you're not really careful. So these people are dealing with people that we have to appreciate that there are other people that they're so uneducated that they see an asylum seeker as somebody who

does not even have education, does not even have life. And on a white privilege card, they see this person as lesser than them. So, you know, like the way the administration intimidates people there, it's even a big issue. So food, to me, is something that actually can help, can enlighten somebody to see the world

in a very different way. Because we've seen a lot of people that, you know, people coming from Syria that they didn't even have language. We've cooked with the most amazing women that they've come and only what they know is food. The way they take food and put it in your mouth

and the way you've been nodding and liking that food, you see the change of environment. It's communication without language. It's using food as a language. Yeah. And do you find as well when you're working

with these other people with different cuisines from different cultures that these cuisines are intermingling into new dishes? Are they creating new dishes from it?

Yeah. Yeah, we had a real, well, a real mixture. Syrian and African have been our main kind of two

when we were at our table in the project. There was Hula, an amazing baker. She used to come in and do all the Syrian pastries and deliver them in. And then you'd have bajila, which are kind of like, I learned quite quickly, like a little falafel, but they're made of beans and they're crushed up.

So made similar to falafel. So you'd have bajila to start with and then these Syrian pastries all on the one kind of serving dish because that's what we were serving. So there was a real kind of amalgamation of different cultures and things that really worked. Like, it was just a really tasty and safe space.

And then we had really, really interesting people coming in and talking. Like, Nelta gave a speech, Colm O'Gorman, with Stephen Ray opened the project. So we brought all these different people in. So using kind of the space as an activist space for those people to talk and to give support to the project and then using again food was just a really easy way to invite them all in

come in, have dinner, have a chat, like talk to us about it and give us kind of a really good feedback and also what you have to know is food is culture you know you can actually know or understand people through food because if we can just lay like five different types of food here we can actually name where the food is coming from and like i i i okay yeah yeah like i'm fan

of cook i'm fan of cooking and from where i'm coming from we have different types of parties so like you know actually yeah that was a question because i asked the internet for questions and one question was what is the significance of food in Malawian culture? Yeah, so we have like wedding food. We have funeral food. You know, if I make here like beans and, you know, like cow intestines, which we call them. I mean, like we don't mess up with meat. So we eat from the toes to the head. Also, Ellie can't cook for like five people. No, Ellie can't cook for five people.

No, I can't cook for four people. I'm absolutely not joking. It's literally this pot of food. There's only about four people coming. But that's what you're saying you're used to. It's basically cook a big pot of food. Everyone comes and shares and eats together. I get mad cook for ten people.

I'm like, what do you want me to do in the kitchen? Because it's like, I should cut this cup kind of like this cup, like, you know, one, I don't do one, two. I do, I do cookies. Thank you. One question I had here was first off, like, what are the, a lot of people wanted to know, what can everyday Irish people do to either end direct provision or to help the people in direct provision?

That's what most people wanted to know. Lobby your politicians. And I think, guys, now we really have to say enough is enough. Because I know I'll be saying this and the government would not want you people to know that there are almost 200 people

coming into Ireland every day. And what you have to understand is we are living in one of the countries that has the human rights laws. So these laws protect people. So in whatever they can even lie to you, like, okay, there's nothing like climatically or demographic changes. These people are going to live here in Ireland.

And if we can't create a space whereby when people come here, we are allowing for people to be locked for 10 years. I mean, if you can just be locked for a month or two months, you become disengaging yourself to the society. So if we can let this government lock people for over 10 years and these people become very dysfunctional, what are these people going to do when they're going to be let in the communities after 5, 10 years?

I've been really lucky that, you know, I saw my time living in a direct provision seriously. And I have to be honest with you, it has taken me a lot of strength, a lot of strength to be where I'm sitting right at the moment. I've met amazing people. But it's not like everyone, other people maybe did not meet amazing people,

but it's how courageous you are and what strength do you carry. So like there's a lot of people that they don't have that much energy like what I have. And life is fighting. You can ask Michelle. Like every day I come with a baggage of stories. And sometimes like, how did I manage to get through today? Oh, I'm living.

That's what puts my like, okay, I still have life, you know. So if these people are going to live there for 10 years and then after 10 years come into our community, what kind of a community are we going to have? And that's something that should be scared, everyone. And by being scared with that, we really need to push the government to do the right things. There are many ways.

Ireland is a country that's just growing. At the moment there is a place for everyone. Not even only that, if they can let people, like the way I've integrated into Irish society, you never know how other people can actually do amazing things like what we've done.

One thing you have to understand is we also contribute to the economy. At the moment we have 15 people on our payroll. We've worked with more than 50 people as volunteers, right? And these people are carrying a wedge. That means they are moving on with their lives. They are not even stuck at all. There are a lot of people that have been educated through our table,

and they've gone along and do a different life. So if we can try to integrate people in this way and if we can allow people to give them independence, 10, 15 years from now, 20 years from now, we won't have problems that we are going to have two, three years from now. So we have to start lobbying our politicians and we have

to give them hard time. Ask them questions. What's going on? There are direct provision now that they can't name because of the issues that have been going on. I can't blame them for that if they decide not to say that. The centres now aren't... The Irish Refugee Council don't even know where the direct provision centres are at the moment

because of the fires. They're keeping their location secret. That's what you're referring to. Yeah, direct provision centres were attacked, firebombed. So now they're secret, that's what you're referring to. So yeah, there was direct provision centres were attacked, firebombed. So now they're secret, obviously. Yeah, which is kind of scary. Which you can't blame them for that, because these are people,

and you can imagine if that day there was 80 people in that hotel, what would they have been talking right now? Yeah. Yeah. Another way, sorry, just to interrupt, Massey is also would be kind of a good way to contact a migrant.

Massey, yeah. Yeah, so Lucky, K to interrupt, Massey is also would be kind of a good way to contact a migrant. Massey, yeah. Yeah, so Lucky, Kambule involved Massey. So they have representatives around different parts of the country in different centres. So that would be another way of... Yacht, at this point, there was an intermission so people could have a piss and a pint. And then we can back out on stage. One thing I want to touch on, because we didn't speak about it beforehand, right? But it's something to consider about the system of direct provision, right,

which is this is a for-profit thing, and that's what makes it really, really dodgy and dangerous, okay? So like we mentioned, in America, the prison system is privatized, so therefore it's in someone's interest to have a bunch of prisoners because they make money. With direct provision the taxpayer there's hotels

that fell apart in the Celtic Tiger and then conveniently these hotels that would have gone out of business and the owners of the hotels are all friends with politicians and Fianna Fáil and Fianna Gael and all this there are hotels that are raking in the cash

that have got full occupation all the time with direct provision and also with the homeless families who aren't being rehoused and are living in hotels. Aramac, the corporation that are providing the catering for

direct provision, sure of course they don't want the people living there to be cooking for themselves, because Aramac are raking in the cash, tax money, we're paying for it, to provide poor quality food for the people there and for them to have no autonomy. So it's...

There is a lot of people that if direct provision ends tomorrow, there are a lot of powerful people in this country who are out of pocket. Avoca. Well, as well, now I don't think there's anyone here who likes eating cheesecakes and admiring rugby players. But if you do enjoy cheesecakes

and possibly having an affair with a rugby player, Avoca is also owned by Aramac. with a rugby player. Avoca is also owned by Aramac. But that's something I wanted to touch on. It's, fuck that. Do you know what I mean? Seriously.

And as well, like I was saying, I was comparing it to the Magdalene thing. The Magdalene laundries are privatized too. Who played the game Mousetrap as a child? That was made in Ireland, in Magdalene laundries. Yeah. They went to the Magdalene laundries and said, we've got this game, it's got loads of small little parts. Can the women...

I'm talking 1991, late 80s. The women in Magdalene laundries were working for no money to manufacture games that were being sold to us as kids. We didn't know. So that's privatised, the church making money. Like, fuck all of that. Let's end that, please. Thank you. Let's end that, please.

Ellie, I heard you have very controversial opinions about coddle. What about it? Look, I'm from Limerick. I don't give a fuck about coddle. I'm from Limerick. It's a Dublin thing. I respect it. Do you know, I would eat coddle if I could fry the sausage first.

It has to be boiled, yeah? It has to be boiled, yeah? So, Ellie, at the risk of turning the entire audience against you, please express your opinions about Coddle. So, I'm a Dubliner, you see. So, I... How do you see this is... Let's talk about the children in direct provision, children that are born in direct provision. There's now adults that are like 19, like 17, 18,

and they've known nothing other than direct provision. Is this correct? Yeah. You know, like there are two types of kids that they've grown, born and grown up in direct provision. So you're talking of kids that they've arrived here in Ireland when they were maybe from zero age to five. So these kids, that means, you know, like between age of three,

that's when you start trying to know things. Yeah. So these are kids that they've grown here in Ireland. So their young age and their adulthood, the life that they would know, they would know life in direct provision. Because I think, yeah, we have the 17-year-olds, 18-year-olds that they've grown and lived in direct provision.

Sorry. Oh, here's a good question that I was asked which country do you think has the best model for integration of migrants into their society and how difficult would it be for Ireland to adapt that model so who do you think is doing

a good job like we've seen countries like Switzerland, Italy where is this Switzerland, Italy. Where is this? Switzerland, Italy. And there's also one of the countries. Okay, I remember before that.

Italy, it's been exhausted with refugees and migrants because that's where the shows are. So if people are traveling through Libya and over the sea, they're alive in Italy. So there will be countries that have been exhausted, but they are really trying. Italy is using one of the models that I've also connected to other people that we are researching that might maybe actually help us.

So it's getting refugees into the country. To avoid leaving them in direct provision, they are being given accommodation in return of leaving those free accommodation while they are waiting for their cases, but also do, not community work, but being able to work.

So these people are sent into private and public sectors to work as builders, cleaners but while they're living a normal life and they get some vouchers to live a normal independent life by being able to go to the market and get ingredients because that

also it's one of the therapeutical things that we as a human being just to go to the market and get ingredients because that also it's one of the therapeutic thing that we as a human being you know just by going to the market and being able to source ingredients and being able to stand in your home even to make a decision that this is what i want to feed my family that's what we call a normal living so they're being able to be given that independence of living a normal life and on the other hand they're also contributing to the community. So by this period of time whether you are keeping these people for

one to ten years, these people they are already contributing to the society that when you give them their right to live in the country they won't even have any problem with integration. And Switzerland has the same model where they are integrating people by any problem with integration. And Switzerland has the same model where they are integrating people by providing them with jobs

and, you know, like a healthy living and a normal independent life and for them also to offer their services by being able to do a lot of work. So even if you are a professional, like maybe if you're an IT or a doctor, so you'll be working in a hospital by the day you arrive in the country. So that means by the time you arrive in the country. So that means by the time your case is being processed,

you know, you've already well integrated and maybe you've even upskilled in your education. So those are the types of the models that we need here in Ireland. And do you find a lot of people in direct provision who were doctors, highly trained professions, who are now, their skills are not being used? Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have. And another thing that I've noted, people who are coming from Sudan,

you know, like people who are coming from places like Sudan, Eritrea, there are people that have gone into the camp, some of them since they were young, some of them since they were born, so they are living in Kenya and Uganda. So those people, they've gone through education, although they were in the camp. So they come equipped, many of them teachers, many of them doctors. So if they find a chance of getting over here, they're already equipped.

Maybe the thing that they're lacking is to work on a professional level. So what countries like Ireland can do is to make sure that they give them that opportunity of upskilling their levels and integrate and contribute to the country.

There was a story about an asylum seeker in Wicklow who was a nurse. And when he arrived himself in the country, he managed to integrate himself. He went out and volunteered in the hospitals. He worked, he nursed people. And unfortunately, he was given a deportation. So he was not sure of what's going to happen to him. But because the laws in Afghanistan

says if you're being deported from wherever you're coming from, and on a political reasons, you are going to go straight into the prison. So he wasn't sure of his fate, and he was really scared that I might even battle it out, but I might be sent back to Afghanistan.

So that means I won't even live again. So it's better I should just live by myself, and at least maybe I can find other options of what I can do next. But he was somebody who really integrated really well, and he offered his good services, and the government didn't want to keep him. So that's really bad. One thing you said earlier that I hadn't thought of before

was indirect provision. You're directly provided food, no opportunity to work, no ability to gain wealth, essentially, because it's, what is it, 39 pounds a week? Now it's 21.60 euros.

The time I was coming, it was 19.10 euros. And so with that 19 euros, you're able to leave the centre during the day and maybe go to the shop? Yeah, but you can't do much with 19. Just think of the coffee and the pastry. And is there a curfew in direct provision? Yeah, there is, many of them, 10 o'clock.

Like, I'm living now in a direct provision center because I was living in city center, so they closed where I was living, which was a bit more independent living. And they closed it down, so now I had to go back. So I'm living near the airport, and that's behind the airport

it's called Brasseskin Reception Center and that's where I am but you know because I'm early I can get away with everything but I've seen a lot there yeah yeah but the thing that troubled me was,

it's like, if you have people being directly provided for for so long, it's like you said, you're setting those people up for failure if they then enter society. Which, that right there, that's systematic racism. That is the system of racism. That means the people who come out, they don't have the opportunity. They don't have

everyone else has a head start. Yeah, exactly. You can have the example between me and Michelle. I think me and Michelle, the time when we met, if we couldn't trust and learn about each other, we wouldn't even be here. And even like the

foundation that we have set up, it wouldn't even be where we are, which I'm even not hoping, but I know like 50 years now we'll be talking of something that is going to be a huge part of Ireland. So if we could have looked at each other like, okay, she's an asylum seeker, I'm a white privileged Irish woman, and

these are the examples. Thank you. I'm a white, privileged Irish woman. And these are the examples. And I think these are the examples that people, I mean, the people they should be looking at. And I was telling Michelle, like, I'm coming from a background whereby, you know,

my parents, my mom, she was a good cook, you know. My aunt who raised me after my mom's death, she was a good chef. And my aunt, she did a lot. And we were the first owners of the bakery in Malawi. So if she didn't believe that, if she could undermine me, I think we wouldn't even be where we are at the moment. But... And one thing as well I want to kind of promote is our table has now started doing corporate events,

like catering. Yeah. And any of ye, even if you had a 21st, you know, or if, you know, ye work in offices and things like that, if the office wants to get a caterer in, you can... Yeah. And that is a way for us to help the situation, to raise awareness, you know, so

definitely take that one home, and not just the people in the room, the people listening on the podcast on the internet. But do you want to speak a little bit about that, the way that you're expanding in that way? Yeah, so we are expanding that way.

You know, even where you are, if you have chefs, if you have managers, you can come and manage us in a few years because we are aiming to grow bigger. So what's happening now, we are now social enterprise, so we are corporate caterers. So we've been really lucky that we've worked with a big organization like European Union, and they also help us to cater. I cook for 500, don't invite me for 10, yeah?

Yeah. Yeah, so we do conferences, and, you know, like, there's a lot of stuff now going on about representative meeting, talking about the crisis, refugee crisis, not even a refugee crisis, but different type of events. So that's what we are catering. So we are all over the country, from Tiberi to Donegoro. And like in mid, end of February, we'll be in Tiberi for two weeks.

So if you have an event, you can invite us to come and cater for you and not only cater for you but also we have a spot in Christchurch so you can also book us and if you want an event we collaborate with the Christchurch Cathedral and we can set you up there, we have lovely pictures we have

on our website we have our table dabbing as a Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, so you can follow us through there. And the food. Um... One thing I would like to know, though, is, like, you and the other people

making this food and selling it, are you entitled to earn money from that? No, no, no, no, no. So I would say because Michelle went to school, so I was kind of there now that I've been leading this. So I'm a volunteer CEO, yeah? I own a dealership. You know?

Yeah, so I do all this. For me, I do all this on a volunteer basis. But for the rest of the staff, they're on a payroll. They're on a payroll? Yeah. Okay, good. We have, yeah. And we do everything by the books. We pay tax, you know.

We don't do anything. We pay tax. We pay all the necessary bills that the setup has to make. So... Before I take audience questions, tell us about... Sorry for not asking you nothing.

Ellie can talk. She's well able to talk. That's how our marriage works. It's the dynamic. That's the dynamic. Sorry, Dickland. But you've now recently... You're running with the Social Democrats.

Yeah. Very Democrats. Yeah. Very recently. Yeah. You are the first ever person in direct provision to be going for a political thing. Which is amazing. And can you imagine, like, just think of someone like Daniel O'Connell, what he would think of that, you know what I mean? He'd be 100% behind us.

Tell us about that. Is it fun? Is it exciting? Yeah, it is exciting. There is a momentum building out there. Like, I was launching my campaign yesterday, and I got messages, and it really made me cry for people that are abroad, and I'm talking of Irish citizens. And there was a woman who actually touched my heart. She said she left between 2010 and 2011.

And by reading my story, it would be the time that I was coming here. And she left through the recession times. And she was like, I left Ireland because I never felt like home. You know, like everything was falling apart. And I'm also happy to know that the time when I was leaving home, somebody was coming from somewhere to make Ireland home. And I've been following your story. And to be aware where you are going, I hope you make it to the council.

But, yeah, the reason why I decided to do this, because I've been working with another good friend of mine, Councillor Gary Gannon. So, like, I didn't... He's a good lad. So, I, like, he... I mean, I've been really, really lucky. Like, the way we've seen...

Like, me and Michelle, we are more than these co-founders of our table. Like, now we are sisters, and we have, like, a few other friends that are behind us, and that's even how Gary Gannon has been. So, you know, one thing that you have to understand for the marginal problems in a social society that we are going

through right now is people that just want to feel heard. There is a lot of people that they have so much that they don't want to share with anyone else. If we can't do these things by ourselves, there will be a problem.

So like for me, being in this activism that I fought from the grassroots and even just chanting of ending direct provision, and as even you can go on an Irish party manifestos, there isn't a party that has strong policy

on migration or refugees and asylum seekers. So even if I can just be standing here and even talking about these issues, it won't mean anything. But, you know, like going this way, I'm going, it's nothing about us. Without us, we have to be there. We have to sit there because even our stories are not being told exactly the stories are supposed to be told. And there is a lot of, imagine Irish children

that are born in LOE 19, which I am. LOE 19 is my home. I've lived in Ashes Key for over five and a half years. And, you know, like, I'll get to know the roots of there. And that's how I felt, like, the way I felt directly. Because this is home, and I have to create a space whereby my children, my grandchildren, my great-grandchildren

they are going to live without prejudice without fear of being in Ireland and without being segregated but as a country that their grandmother fought for it and fought for the safer place for everyone. So that's what I'm trying to say. Yes.

And it's North Inner City Dublin is the constituency, yeah? Yeah. North Inner City, okay. Yeah, North Inner City, yeah. So North Inner City, yeah. How do you, like, just as you mentioned there, you know, no party has a proper kind of speaks about direct provision. Like, someone asked, like, do politicians even visit direct provision centers?

I've never seen any. It was a working group set up. Yeah, there was a working group. It's not been followed. Judge Brian McCormack, which I really applaud him, that he did a great job. He's the one who led a working group that I was part of, the asylum seekers, that we also led the asylum seeker movement. And there was

about 200 and, you know, 30-something recommendations. But out of that, we haven't even, there is a little movement in it, there is a little change, but we haven't even seen anything. There's been a paper drawn up, but very little of it. Yeah, but it very much said it. As you can see what I'm telling you

I'm a volunteer director. I can't actually earn a wage but I'm the old system. But you can imagine that people like me we are not entitled. We are not allowed for that regulation to be able to work. So you can see how crazy the system is. Yeah.

I'm going to put the mic out to the audience, lads. Any questions? This gentleman here with the fetching ear separators. What do you think of his jersey? What do I think of your buddy's jersey?

Tell us about your buddy's jersey. I'll let him tell you about it. It's lovely. Go on. Tell us about your buddy's jersey. I'll let him tell you about it. It's lovely. Go on, tell us about it. Right, so actually, the point behind this jersey... Sorry, I'm not staring at one there. You're grand, man. Right, so the point behind this jersey,

the fist is held in solidarity, held in the air for the movement. 10% of the profit of this jersey goes toward direct provision. Funny enough. Who is the soccer team? You're the Bulls. The Bulls, okay. Can I ask everybody here to join me in it?

When I say fuck, you say Rovers. No. Fuck. to join me in it when I say fuck you say Rovers no man fuck fuck I wasn't about platforming that man but fair play to fair play to Boz do you know what I mean

10% of their t-shirt is it goes to is it Massey it goes to or who is it, do you know? I'm not too sure. I think that's the Massey symbol on the jersey anyway. Okay.

Fair play. Fair play. Any other questions? Yes. Hi. It's not really a question. It's just more of a statement. Oh, for fuck's sake, no.

Sorry. Sorry. Can, it's just more... Can you shape, get your statement right and shape a little question mark at the end. Okay, I'll try my best. It's just a statement of admiration. You come across with such strength and power and I think you're doing such good work and I just want to congratulate you and keep doing what you're doing. And my question is any next

future plans? Yeah, so I am going into politics so you know where I'm heading, right? Watch this space. Thank you. Anyone else just raise the old hand, preferably in this direction because poor old Just raise the old hand.

Preferably in this direction, because poor old Alice has the microphone on. Yeah. No, my question is more on the call to action. I, lucky enough, I know Ellie, so I picked her up, and when I went to pick her up on the... And when I went to collect her, there was no...

Hi, Tony. How are you doing? Her location didn't exist on Google Maps. And what we thought when we looked at it, it said all of these chalets are here, all of these reception centres here, and they didn't exist. The question is really, Ellie, what's

the call to action for the people who are here when they leave here tonight? Because they know you're going home there tonight. This is what I'm saying, that, you know, like it's not easy to be Ellie Kisyombe and to come from where I'm coming from. Like now, Tony, you are here, so you are dropping me home, because I've been like thinking like,

huh? So, you know, so this is what happens me home. Because I've been thinking, like, huh? So this is what happens. So when I come in this audience, I try to act a little bit posh. You know? Like, forget from where I'm coming from. And then as the time starts slipping off like this, I'm like, oh, my Jesus. Please, God, save this hell out of me. So, you know, like, this is what I'm saying,

that, you know, like, it's not even right the way we are being, like, pulled or housed. It takes me 10 minutes to walk to reach to, to get a bus to come to city center, a place whereby,

you know, you are in the middle of nowhere, and at least I'm close to city, but like other centers, if you can go to Mill Street where I live you can walk from here up to maybe O'Connell Bridge you know and that's where you start seeing

houses that okay there are a few houses over there so that's why I'm saying you have to lobby your TDs and ministers and how many people they shouldn't be kept this way. Yeah, I mean, lobbying the politicians also, we were saying earlier on,

like there's been two amazing referendums in this country and so much young energy and people really stepping up for what they believe in. And I think that can be harnessed, like that energy that's come out over the last few years. And I think people now really found like that their one vote made such a massive difference. And I think if you use that vote against your politicians,

if you go up to your politician and go, guys, we don't, this is not in our name. We don't want this to happen. That will make change. They need your vote. You're their employers. You're their employers. And can I tell you something, lads?

Let's get angry. You know, like, it's good to get angry in a very good way. We are game changers! You know, like, we are game changers! So let's do it. And remember... Let's do it. It's your tax money that's being used for this system,

this abuse of human rights, is the money that's coming out of your check without your consent. So use your consent and go, no, fuck off. No, end direct provision. Providing provision, but in the really, really basic way. Like the food, the nutritional value of the food is minimal. And that, I mean, you're talking about mental health issues. Like being fed fried food since you were a baby

to adulthood for some people, every single day, three meals a day, really, really bottom line food with very, very little nutrition, very little reference to culture or any kind of needs that somebody has around the table. Just what type of stuff? Like chips, chicken nuggets, lasagna?

It's kind of like junk foods, like chicken, chips, nuggets. I mean, when you're talking chips, you know there's, I'm a chef, so there's a few types of chips, right? Yeah. I mean, when you're talking chips, you know, there's... I'm a chef, so there's a few types of chips, right? Yeah. You see chips on a plate and you're like, okay, I'm getting chips. But, you know, these are just junk chips that have been there for ages,

you know, like frozen chips and frozen nuggets. This is food that, you know, it's being processed. You're talking about processed food. High profit margin on that food. Because of the fucking profit margin. It's a high profit margin on that food. Because of the fucking profit margin. It's a massive profit margin. To buy a big bag of frozen processed food and to throw it into a fryer

is way, way cheaper to produce than getting someone in to chop up fresh vegetables. So profit is definitely a factor in most cases. So someone from being a kid up to an adult with no autonomy or choice about vegetables, about things like that, it's like there's chicken nuggets.

One thing that came up, I remember one of the first dinners we did in the project and actually just, we were all sitting around chatting after and a lot of people who come from DP and choice actually was something that came up

and it surprised me. I hadn't really thought about it. Luckily, I haven't had the experience of being kind of handed one meal to eat every day and everyone was like wow because we cooked so much stuff remember that day there was like a whole literally a whole table if you see photos different completely different dishes and people from loads people from direct provision came and just ate with us and joined in the meal and everyone afterwards was like we could just choose what we wanted for the first time in years so you could come and fill your plate with whatever you wanted

that was on that table. And it didn't even resonate with me until after. I was like, oh, my God, wow. And they were like, mostly we're just handed a plate of food. Like, for three meals a day, you're just handed this thing. And the lack of choice and autonomy, and then obviously that filtering down to your child, that you don't feel like you have, you know,

the ability to provide choice to them is also I'd imagine I mean luckily again it's Ellie will tell you more but like that's a really really disempowering thing and the way like people get treated with that plate of meal and the way they can make you feel

small people just throw a plate and just go you know days without eating food because of the way they are. That's what I want to know. Like, even the staff that work in the canteen there, how are the staff towards the residents? And before I forget, can I tell you something?

There was a day, there was a day, you know, like, I've been like for five years, like, having independent living and being cooked for my kids and then I went there. So, the first week that I got in there, I actually got ill. I really, really got ill. So,

you know, when you're ill, there's food that you don't want to eat. You need a nice soup, a nice mash, you know. Better cooked, right? I could give you the recipe. Better cooked mash. So, you need that. So, and I wanted food. So I went in there and I was like, you know, guys,

yesterday I came in here, I found junk chips. Today I found junk this. And then, what are you cooking tomorrow? You know, this chef went and gave me a menu and said, you know what, I got this menu from RIA. So RIA is an institution that takes

care of people that lives in that center so you can imagine you are a chef because a chef you wake up in the morning and you order the stuff that you want to cook so you don't as a chef you don't even have that right to order the food that you want to cook so you are waiting for somebody who is an

IT person or administrator to give you the menu that you have to cook does that make sense? Yeah. So the chef couldn't even, aren't using their creative freedom if they wanted to. So that's how bad it is.

That's just, this is happening, lads. And it's not in the papers, it's not spoken about in the DAWL. Do you know what I mean? So we have to fucking use our agency. Everyone listening has the power to make a change. I mean, it's your... Let a TD know.

You're not getting my vote. What are your opinions on direct provision? Most of them probably don't have answers. Don't think about it. Because it's kept so far underneath the carpet. And what your buddy said up there, it's not even on Google Maps. What is the...

What can people do for entertainment in direct provision? What are people's hobbies? Can they play games? Is there musical instruments? What do people do in direct provision for entertainment? I mean, for themselves, they can't do anything because they don't have the facilities.

But if they can get help, like there's music, there is football, there is basketball, there's lots of stuff that can be done, you know, that can be clear. To volunteer organizations going in. Volunteer organizations and do that. And we know, like, there are other organizations that are helping out.

But, you know, like, we have not even in last year, we were saying, for the past two years, we were saying we have 5,000 asylum seekers, which I don't even think that we have 5,000 now it's even more than that so you know even the organizations that we have now at the moment as much as they are trying I don't think it can be

able for them to help everyone but if there are other people that they can volunteer and also other organizations that even can help out you know there is a lot of things that can be done like platforms like Our Table, you know, like setting up footballs, and, you know, hurling, and a lot of stuff.

Yeah, in Limerick, there's a... I can't think of the name of it, but it's a running organization? Yeah, the Sanctuary Runners. Sanctuary Runners. Yeah, there's a good few really, really good projects around the country, and it just does take someone just to... One or two people just to go in and do it. Sligo Global Kitchen got in Sligigo and they do some amazing work as well they in the model art center a few times a year they come and hundreds of people and they pick two countries so

they ask those people from direct provision just to choose two um two countries so it might be syria it might be eritrea and people cook loads people come together and cook meals from those two countries and just serve it to hundreds of people and there's always loads of music, there's all talk so it's a real information day and a food day and there is those different things going on around the country and it is just people reaching in and then other people reaching out and the two

coming together and there is so much energy there to help and I found that was one thing we were talking about earlier on that there was so much I think when we did the first AeroTable we were shocked at how many people walked in the door and said this is the first time we've felt our

ability to show solidarity, we didn't know where we kind of were getting annoyed at this and we didn't know where to voice that annoyance so loads of people came through the door to us and offered help, offered loads of different things and just saying you know we really really want to do something and we just don't have an outlet, so there is people like

we were talking about earlier on, Massey, Sligo Global Kitchen, Airtable, all these different things that people can just walk up, call them, just talk and say, listen, I have a few hours on a Friday I can teach a kid English I can do some soccer training I can do some GA training, whatever it is and like, there's definitely places

there you can go and help So thank you very much to my fantastic guests, Michelle and Ellie and lads fair play to ye if ye enjoyed tonight,

if ye left here feeling inspired, feeling angry, understand ye have the autonomy and the power to do something about this. Okay? Whether it's volunteering, whether it's using your votes, whether it's pissing off your TDs,

let's become the change. And thank you for coming here tonight. God bless. Have a bit of crack Thank you for listening to that I hope you enjoyed it I will be back next week

be compassionate to yourself be compassionate to your neighbours Yart. Rock City, you're the best fans in the league, bar none. Tickets are on sale now for Fan Appreciation Night on Saturday, April 13th, when the Toronto Rock hosts the Rochester Nighthawks at First Ontario Centre

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