The Blindboy Podcast - Speaking to a Psychologist about Drug laws in Ireland

Episode Date: April 25, 2023

Part 1. I speak about about my NY Times interview and why I wear a bag on my head. Part 2 I chat with Dr. Sharon Lambert about the Citizens assembly on Drugs where Sharon was an invited participant. Drugs legislation in Ireland and what needs to change in guidance with safety and evidence Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Cry forth the bare-knuckle lollipop, you distant Vincents. Welcome to the Blind Boy Podcast. If you're a brand new listener, go back to an earlier podcast. Don't listen to this episode. We have a record amount of brand new listeners this week because this podcast was featured in the New York Times at the weekend. So if you're a brand new listener from the New York Times, don't listen to this episode. Go back to an earlier episode. You might be tempted to pick out an episode where I

interview a celebrity. That's not really what this podcast is about. I do that occasionally. But this podcast for me, it's auto fiction. I like to explore the podcast medium as a literary form through monologues that I write. So pick one of those episodes because this episode is an interview with the brilliant Sharon Lambert about Irish drug policy, which might interest you as a first-time listener, but really this one is for regular listeners. So I'm so glad that the podcast was featured in the New York Times. I know I speak a lot about trying not to pay too much attention to external praise. But I'm going to allow myself to feel proud of that. Not an ego thing. To feel proud of it for moments in my career where I would have really beaten myself up.

I've been professionally creative since I was fucking 17. I'm doing this a long time. I've had lots and lots of failures. TV pilots that never got off the ground. Stuff that never got commissioned. Scripts that got rejected. And in those times, I always thought, fuck it, will I give up? Maybe I'm not good enough.

Will I just give up? And these rejections would have always come from TV channels we'll say or radio stations or whatever the fuck we'll say the industry and when you try your best and you work real hard at something and you think that the thing that you've made is really good and it still gets rejected by

TV commissioners or radio commissioners or whatever that's really tough it's tough to maintain self belief after enough of those things and when I started this podcast in my bedroom as it kind of moved along my attitude became fuck it I don't need TV commissioners I don't need commissioners to tell me what I'm doing is good or bad just Just fucking do it yourself. Do it yourself. Put it out independently. If people like it, ask them to fund it. Just do it yourself. And I did. And it got featured in the New York Times purely because of word of mouth, no advertising budget,

nothing. I just showed up each week with this podcast did what I wanted to do made sure that I'm passionate each week that I care about what I'm making that I have full creative control and five years later it got featured in the New York Times and the reason that's important to me is because let's just say it wasn't this podcast wasn't an independent production. Let's just say this podcast was, I don't know, a little TV show I made on RTE or something I made for BBC. If something I made on one of those platforms ended up getting written about in the New York Times, which is one of the biggest newspapers in the world, if that ended up getting written about in the New York Times that would be a huge deal

in the industry that would be considered a massive deal I'd be offered 10 TV commissions to do whatever the fuck I wanted so I'm taking this bit of external praise on board not for my fucking ego not to consider myself better than anyone else or any bullshit like that just for younger versions of myself that was unnecessarily tough on myself. Just there was no need to be that hard on yourself.

Just because a pilot got rejected or a commissioner didn't like your idea it doesn't mean that you need to give up and you're worthless and useless and everything was all an accident up to that point. It's not true. And also I want to thank all of ye. Because there'd be no fucking podcast if it wasn't for ye listening.

If it wasn't for patrons who funded me. And for people who just listen to the podcast and then say to their friend. You should listen to this podcast I really like it. So thanks to all of ye. And I want to give a thank you to the journalist, Rachel Connolly, who profiled me because I've been a huge fan of Rachel's writing and her journalism for a few years now. So I was so excited that she was the one who was going to be profiling me. And also I'll give her a plug because Rachel has a book coming out, her first novel coming out in August called Lazy City. And I'm really looking forward to it because I've loved her journalism for ages. And also her background is in science.

She studied science. And I always welcome any novelist or writer who didn't study writing. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But a huge amount of new writers that come out now, they studied literature and sometimes it can feel a bit samey. So I'm always excited by any writer

of fiction who's coming at it from a different background. Something I want to address is in the New York Times piece they used my real name, which I didn't know that was going to happen and loads of people on Instagram and Twitter people who listen to this podcast were really annoyed about that

they were annoyed with the journalist and annoyed with the New York Times for printing my real name and I want to stress this shit just happens the journalist Rachel Connolly she was unbelievably sound, supportive. She didn't print my real name out of any type of malice. Neither did the New York Times.

The fact is, like, I'm not anonymous. Like, to be anonymous means nobody knows who you are. It's not possible to be anonymous and also operate professionally, by which I mean earning a living from what you do. I do gigs, I earn a living, I pay taxes, I take out insurance at gigs and stuff. I'm a professional, this is how I earn a living. So there's no way to do that while being literally anonymous. That doesn't exist. So because of that, it's easy for journalists to find out your actual name. And my name has been in the public domain since the days of the fucking rubber bandits years ago. So I'm not anonymous.

What I am is private. So regarding the New York Times printing my name, no one actually did anything wrong or bad. It's just how it rolls sometimes. How I generally conduct interviews is I wear a plastic bag throughout the entire thing. I refer to myself only as blind boy throughout the entire thing. And I hope that that then translates into the article just calling me blind boy. But the other thing is with the media and with journalists, I can't go to a journalist. I can't say to a journalist, can you not print my real name? Because that's actually quite insulting to the profession of journalism. You can't go to a

journalist and say, can you, this piece of publicly available information, can you pretend that doesn't exist please? So I didn't ask for that and I generally don't ask for that. The only time it's acceptable to ask for that is when it's part of a paid PR campaign. Like if I wanted to, I could be all over the newspapers and the radio next week. If I put aside a certain amount of money, give it to a PR company, and then that PR company is paying for me to be on the radio, on the TV and in the newspaper. That happens all the time.

Like if I have a gig coming up, like a big gig, and the promoter for this gig, like Akins or whoever, when I do Vicar Street, Akins might have money for PR and then they get me in the paper and it might look like an interview but really it's just an ad for a gig that's all it is even though it looks like an interview. In those situations you can actually say to the journalist we're paying for this here so don't use his real name. They can still tell

you to fuck off but the rules are different when it's PR. This New York Times thing wasn't that. This was the New York Times would like to do a profile on your podcast, which is an honour because that's the shit that you have to earn. But it also means the ball isn't really in my court to be asking, don't print my real name. So usually what I do, I just wear the bag throughout, call myself blind by throughout. In Ireland, most journalists go, he's blind by, let's just wear the bag throughout. Call myself blind by throughout. In Ireland most journalists go he's blind by. Let's just call him blind by. Like if it was Sting I'd call him Sting or Bono but with this article it's the New York Times. I'm not big enough. They're doing an article for an audience who've never heard of me going there's a podcaster over in Ireland who wears a plastic

bag on his head and he calls himself blind by. So we're going to put his real name in there. And that's just an editorial decision. Obviously, I'm not happy with that because I prefer the most amount of privacy that I can get. But no one did anything bad. This is just what happens sometimes. And the reason I'm saying it is because I saw a small amount of people coming to my defence online and going directly to the journalist Rachel Connolly as if she had done something malicious or tried to dox me. No, that's not the case. Even if she had wanted to not print my name, the editorial policy of the newspaper might have overruled that. So I'm saying that it's grand. Don't worry about it, it's fine. And please don't take up issue with the journalists

because she's someone I admire and respect. My actual name has been out there for years and I wouldn't be able to hide it anyway the second I start, like, earning money. Not in Ireland, anyway. I don't know how the fuck Banksy does it. And I know some of you are listening and you don't have to read the New York Times article.

You don't have to read the New York Times article. You don't have to read the New York Times article. Don't show me the hand that goes up Cormac the Frog's arse. I don't ever want to see that hand, you're thinking. Like I was talking to a man, a man in his 50s recently, and I was working with him, and we have this puppet in Ireland called Dustin the Turkey. He's a talking turkey from Dublin. He's like a national treasure. But he's Turkey. He's a talking turkey from Dublin. He's like a national treasure.

But he's Dustin. He's Dustin. He's a puppet, but he's not a puppet. He's fucking Dustin and he's a talking turkey. And this man in his 50s who I was talking to, he had worked at a live gig a few years back with Dustin the Turkey. And he wasn't even a fan of Dustin the Turkey.

And one day he walked backstage into the dressing room and what did he see? Dustin's limp body being stuffed into his suitcase and it broke his heart and he didn't even like Dustin it killed him he couldn't believe that Dustin was a puppet

he spoke to me about it like he'd seen a war crime so I understand for loads of you you're like no Blind Boy's not a real person He spoke to me about it like he'd seen a war crime. So I understand for loads of ye, ye're like. No, Blind Boy's not a real person. There's a man in Limerick called Blind Boy with a plastic bag in his head and once a week I listen to him and that's it. Shut the fuck up. And that's fair enough.

I remember when I was a child, actually. Dustin the Tarky. This national treasure Tarky that we have. This puppet. The puppet. When I was a child of about four, the Dustin the turkey puppet that used to be on TV, he had like a testicular flap of skin that used to dangle from his beak. And when I was a child, I used to get a gag reflex when I saw it.

I'd get a gag reflex when he came on TV. My ma used to have to pull me away from the television in case I puked on the carpet. And then they removed the testicular flap of skin from his beak. And then I was okay with dusting the turkey. So now I'm going to expand upon, because I have to do this about once a year on the podcast for new listeners or whatever, or wondering why am I even talking about this? Or asking why do you wear a plastic bag in your head and collars have blind by anyway? Why can't you just take the bag off and just use your normal name? Is it not easier? So let me just speak about fame. Now anytime I say that I'd like to speak about fame I get a little bit embarrassed because it sounds like I think I'm way more famous than I am. I'm under I like to call interrupting your carvery fame. By which I mean, if you're

out on a Sunday having a nice carvery lunch with your family, you've got your roast spuds and your roast beef and your gravy and you're there with your brother, your sister, your ma, you're having a lovely Sunday carvery dinner and then I walk past and you're there with your brother your sister your ma you're having a lovely sunday calvary dinner and then i walk past and you stop eating your calvary dinner you look up slightly go to your sister or brother and say that's your man there um he just sang about a horse or something and he's mentally ill is it i don't know yeah fuck it that's mad I didn't think and then you get back to your carvery lunch and that's it

that's how famous I am and then maybe after 20 minutes when most people at the carvery have done that just simply paused their roast beef

looked up and acknowledged maybe after 20 minutes two people might come up to me and say can I have a selfie? I don't really know who the fuck you are, to be honest, and I'm not that familiar with your work, but someone said you're kind of famous, so can I get a selfie just in case? That's how famous I am.

Pathetic, cringe, Irish fame. But I don't have to deal with that. I don't have to deal with that, because I wear a plastic bag in my head. So do you know what I do? I walk into the carvery. No one knows who the fuck I am. I sit down, get my carvery lunch like a normal person. And if I talk to anybody, it's because I know I'm in real life. And my plastic bag protects me from that. Then you've got real fame. Then you've got Paul Meskell fame. Paul Meskell walks into a carvery, the carvery has to be shut down. Paul Meskell is here, Paul Meskell.

Everyone's ringing their friends. Now everybody's dinner is ruined because Paul Meskell is here and no one's able to eat their dinner. So what does Paul Meskell do? Poor old Paul Meskell can't get any fucking carveries. Paul Meskell, if he wants a carvery, has to go for wherever famous people eat Carvery's.

So now Paul Meskell is in the really expensive, famous person Carvery lunch place in London, which I'm sure exists. And no one gives a fuck who he is because everyone's famous. But then Bob Dylan walks in. And Bob Dylan is so famous that he's even famous amongst famous people.

And this is actually from a real Dylan quote. Because Dylan is making Barack Obama and Joe Biden uncomfortable famous. That's how famous Bob Dylan is. But Bob Dylan said that the loneliest thing at his level of fame is that even when he goes to the place with famous people and like Jack Nicholson could be there, fucking Helen Mirren, Martin Scorsese, Dylan is so famous that even in those places he says everyone eats their dinner differently. Everyone eats. Martin Scorsese eats his dinner a little bit differently when Bob Dylan is in the room. So I'm under no illusions.

I know what my fame level is. Disturbing your fucking carvery in Tarlis at a pub. Fame. Or fucking being in Aldi and you see me and go I don't know what the fuck he is or what he does. I think he's half famous.

I'm going to move closer to him so I can see what type of deodorant he's buying out of curiosity and I might take a photograph of it so my plastic bag and my name Blind by Ball Club it gives me privacy privacy

not anonymity privacy the other thing with me I literally do not give a fuck about fame now the thing is that can sound like I'm trying to be mad cool. I don't give a shit about that. I'm so cool. I don't give a shit about fame. No, literally, I give so little of a fuck about fame that that position is one of the things that got me diagnosed as autistic you see it's actually

normal it's a normal thing like when I just said there I go into a carvery and I might disturb a few people's dinners most people would go so what what's so wrong with that why do you need to avoid that would you not actually like that is Is that not nice? It's normal. It's a normal position to want to walk into a restaurant and for everybody to look up and go, there's that guy. And for people to look up to you and for strangers to hold you in esteem

because they've seen you on TV or something. That's actually a normal thing to want. Like not only is it a normal thing to want, our culture is built around it. Fucking reality TV, influencers, Instagram. To achieve fame, no matter what the level, simply for strangers to know who the fuck you are and to pay attention.

This is normal to want that. And when I say normal, what I mean is within neurotypical society, this is quite neurotypical behavior, these hierarchies of people. When you're neurodivergent, in particular on the autistic spectrum, the part of my brain that should be excited by that amount of attention, it's not there. I don't really have that. I don't instinctively respond to social hierarchy. I can see social hierarchy. I observe it. I witness it. But the little kick of endorphins that you'd get when a famous person walks into the room. I don't get that. Similarly. The kick of endorphins.

Like when I have my bag on. So when I put my plastic bag on. And then I walk into a room of people. And everyone there goes. Oh my god it's blind buy. And everyone's body language changes. And people look at me differently. I don't really respond to that as.

Positive input. It's quite. It's more stressful than anything. And I certainly don't go, this is great. I fucking love this. This is amazing. I go, okay, I'm in the room now and the bag is on my head and everyone knows who I am. And a bunch of people are going to come up and talk to me and that's absolutely fine. And I'm going to have loads of fun while I'm doing this, but I'm really glad that I can take this bag off walk back into the room and no one knows who the fuck I am I'm really glad that I have that because really what I'd like to do is to be kind of on my own to be nice and quiet and to speak to a small amount of people and when I speak to this

small amount of people I want to I want to speak about things I care about I want to speak about ideas with this person, not necessarily small talk, which can be a bit difficult for me. And the thing is with not seeing social hierarchies, if you're neurodivergent, it can be a blessing, but it can also be quite negative. For instance, if I worked in a company, let's just say I had a regular office job and I worked in a company and there's hierarchies within that company you've got your team leader middle management and then you've got the fucking boss I can see that that hierarchy exists but I'm liable to walk up to the boss the top person just to walk up to them and start talking about the history of door handles and I won't change my body language my

tone I won't speak to that person the way that you're supposed to speak to a person who's above you I'll speak to him with human respect and empathy because I'm a nice person I'm a decent human being but I won't engage in the game of speaking to someone who's senior to you. Now that can go, that can be good and bad. If this person really wants to be spoken up to, if they need people to be subordinate to them, to speak to them in a certain way because they have seniority and I don't do that,

then they're going, who's this cheeky fucker who's this little shit who thinks he can just walk up to me the boss and start talking about the history of door handles that shit will get you in a lot of trouble and it got me in a lot of trouble in school or sometimes it can actually go quite well for you that boss might have a bit of humility about them and they may not actually like the fact that people lick their arse or that people speak up to them or present themselves as subordinate they might not actually like that and when someone speaks to them as an equal as a human being they respect that some people are like that like in my current job. Sometimes that's an advantage to me.

I'll give you an example. Like Graham Norton. Was a guest on my podcast about two years ago. Now he's really famous. Graham Norton is really really famous. And he interviews really really famous people. And Graham Norton didn't really need to come on my fucking podcast. He didn't really need that.

He's more famous than needing to come on to my podcast to promote his book or whatever he was doing at the time. Graham Norton came on to this podcast because he wanted to. And the reason was, I was at some party about four years ago. So I'm with the same agency in London as Graham Norton. So I was at a party for my agency. It was a Christmas party, which meant that some of the clients,

I'm a client, and then like all the agents, we were just there having drinks, eating sausage rolls in this big function room. And then Graham Norton comes in and then everything changes. It's like, oh my God, Graham Norton comes in and then everything changes it's like

oh my god Graham Norton is here fuck me he's so famous I didn't think he'd even show up to this party wow and now the whole room is different because Graham Norton is here now I'm there at the party I don't have a bag on my head now I know who Graham Norton is I know that Graham Norton is mad famous I understand all of this obviously but what doesn't happen to me is I don't instinctually, I don't get a rush of endorphins by his Graeme Norton-ness. I don't change how I eat my sausage roll because Graeme Norton is in the room. So I ended up just, I don't know I walked up to him. And spoke about the history of Protestants in Cork. And we ended up having a wonderful lovely conversation.

And had great crack. And then we ended up like hanging out the whole night. Just talking and having. Because he's a lovely man. Other people then started asking around the room. Who the fuck is that guy talking to Graham Norton? He must be somebody. Like no I'm nobody.

The thing is Graham Norton's an actual decent person. And the fact that I just walked up talking to him as a lad called Graham from West Cork, and that I wasn't, my eyes didn't agape because of his Graham Norton-ness, and I just spoke to him like a human being. We had a lovely night. And then when it came to me asking him,

here, Graham, will you be on my podcast? Even though you don't fucking need to be. You don't need to do this at all. He was like, absolutely, of course I would. I love chatting with you. So that there is an example of how, with say, my neurodivergence and not seeing social hierarchies

can be beneficial to me. I could have walked up to some other famous person. I could list out a couple. I won't do it. I could list out a couple of real famous people who I went up and spoke to about the history of door handles or whatever and I got a media cold shoulder. Who the fuck are you that you think you can walk up and talk to me? Do you know who I am? Do you know who I am? You can't just walk up and talk to me. I'm mad important. So some people really like this. They like these mad important so some people really like this they like these hierarchies other people are like this is part of my job and I don't really like it

when people treat me differently so why am I talking about this yeah I literally don't I literally don't want notoriety or fame not on a not an emotional level is what I mean I don't emotionally need it I don't get endorphins or a positive kick when it happens notoriety and fame for me are a consequence of my job

what I want is to make art that I really care about I'm driven 100% by the work is to make art that I really care about. I'm driven 100% by the work. I fucking adore writing. I adore making this podcast.

That's what drives me 24 fucking 7. I love it. And the only way I can do that all the time is that if that's my job, if that's how I earn a living thing is the only way to earn a living from that is if you put your creativity out there in the form of art in whatever form it takes you got to put it out for public consumption in in the sphere of entertainment entertainment. And a consequence of that is you get notoriety. And I also understand notoriety is something I need in order to keep doing the job. So regarding, we said this getting featured in the New York Times, like do I get a big kick of endorphins from that? Do I get the feeling of,

oh my God, I feel amazing. I feel on top of the world. I can't believe I'm in the New York Times. Goodness me, genuinely, no, it's not a feeling. It's much more of a cognitive thing. Getting featured in the New York Times for me, really what it comes down to is, A, I recognize that, yes, it is an achievement. B, for me, it just means more listeners.

It means that loads of people in America have read this article. A small percentage of them are now going to check out this podcast. And now that's more people who will listen to this, tell their friends. And that means more time for me to do this as my full-time job so that ultimately I can keep going. I can keep going creating every single day and if I need to think about the history of door handles for three days solid I have the time and space to turn that into a piece of writing that I can put out as a podcast. That's what it means to me. That's why that's important.

And then the people close to me, my family, they're going to be the ones who'll have to come to me and go, wow, this is a really big deal. The New York Times have featured your podcast. That's huge. Would you not have some celebratory drinks? Would you not celebrate that? How do you feel? Do you not feel amazing? And the truth is, no, I don't feel it. I don't have such an endorphin kick that I then translate that into needing to have celebratory drinks. You're going to have to remind me to do that one. My endorphins will kick in when I start thinking about the history of door handles. I actually don't know anything about the history of door handles other than a little voice inside me is saying well you've mentioned it four times now in this podcast so I probably am going to

start looking at the history of door handles because I guarantee you I guarantee you there's something mad interesting in the history of door handles. There to be there has to be and I'm glad that that's my job because if I was working in in like I said an office where my job has nothing to do with door handles I don't think I'd be able to switch off to thinking about door handles part of myself because that's where my joy is that's where my fun is that's what drives me not being held in high esteem by loads of people. Instead that's something I recognise as being quite important so that I can do my job. This is why the fuck I have a bag in my head. This is why I wear a bag on my head. So that I can live a nice quiet normal life and focus only on the work and exercise boundaries around my privacy and the spectacle of fame because here's

the thing with fame or notoriety it's a fucking spectacle and when I have the plastic bag that's the spectacle I get to hold up that plastic bag and go that's the bit that's famous and what I mean by that is do you ever see like the voice actors for The Simpsons? The human beings who do Bart Simpson's voice or Homer's voice and you see them on a talk show and you look at them talking and it's like, I can hear Homer Simpson. I can hear Lisa Simpson. But I don't know who the fuck you people are.

And it feels strange. It feels odd. It feels discordant. That's because the spectacle of fame isn't those people. It's their voices. But the spectacle of the fame, the thing that we idolize and look up to, that's a yellow cartoon. So by having this plastic bag in my head, that's the spectacle. That is the spectacle. That's where the fame fame is and when the bag is off I'm fucking nobody I'm no one

and that's how I want it it's how I like it and it's very very very important to my mental health and my emotional resilience or else I just give the whole thing up and go and work in a job that doesn't provide me with meaning

and that doesn't fulfill my curiosity to escape all that and I'd rather not do that I love my fucking job I love this so much I don't think I'm ever going to stop being creative professional I'm never going to stop being creative but I just I want to I want creativity to be what I do for a living. And I accept that notoriety sometimes is a consequence of that. And I like to control my privacy around those consequences. And this makes some people really angry. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't be on fucking TV and then expect people to not know who you are.

You can't do this. But here's the fact. My plastic bag doesn't help my fucking career. It hinders my career. It's ridiculous. It's stupid. Most media don't know what to do with me. Is he serious?

Or is he taking the piss? Why does he have that stupid bag on? But yet he's talking about serious things. I don't know what this is. I don't know how to categorise this. I don't like it. And in my job, I regularly don't get opportunities in my job because of this fucking bag. Like, I don't know, presenting a documentary about art history.

Like a big documentary about art history. The paintings of Caravaggio. The people making these documentaries, the channels that are commissioning them, they go through their list of people and they go, how many entertainers here do we have who are actually academically qualified in art history and also are able to present TV and be funny?

There's only a small list of people and my name comes up every single time. They're not giving me that job. They're not going to do a big budget art history documentary with some cunt who's got a bag in his head. They want this to be epic. They want this to be serious, to be solemn. The bag is a distraction. So for people who are saying he can't have his cake and eat it too, I'd be doing a lot better in my chosen profession if I didn't insist on wearing a plastic bag in my head at all times. Even my book company are like,

we're really trying to get people to take you seriously as a short story writer. You see, you're writing these stories and you're asking people to take the stories seriously, but you happen to have a fucking plastic bag in your head at the same time and this is quite difficult. This is quite difficult to sell to critics. Any chance you'd wear a more formal mask

or take it off there's some seagulls it's that time of the evening where the yeah it's late evening here in Limerick and the seagulls are having a little roar

that means there's a storm coming look I love I love I love creating art I love it so much

I love doing this job. I just want to go to Aldi and I don't want to have a car full of people driving past and screaming out of the window and giving me the fright of my life because they recognise me from an internet clip. And I'm going to keep trying to maintain that balance for as long as I can.

And the way you do it is by controlling the spectacle and maintaining that boundary of privacy like some fucking podcasters or reality tv stars they just let the media 100% into their entire lives they'd be there posting on instagram about a new kitchen that they got they let every single thing about their lives becomes part of the spectacle and part of the entertainment. And then that means that it's a free-for-all for the media and for people online to comment about every aspect of their life. You gotta be built for that shit.

Those people are built for this shit. This is what they're doing. They crave and actively enjoy that type of attention. They really love it. And I'm not criticising them. If that's what they love and that's what gives them a sense of meaning, fair fucking play to them. Not everyone wants that. Not everyone likes it.

I'm regarding my name going into a fucking newspaper. I don't give a shit about that. That's Bart Simpson's voice with no face. What I don't like, and what I would actively fight against is the media trying to take photographs of me without my fucking bag. Because to publish that and to make the spectacle of my notoriety, my human face, that would cause me real life harm. If you're thinking really? Come on. So what? Some people see you out in public and they recognise you. So what? That's grand for you. I'm Nora Divergent. Different set of rules. And if I say I don't want to willingly put myself in a situation where I'm going to be recognised in public when I'm trying to live my normal routine based life. If I request that and set those boundaries I think it's only fair for it to be respected. If influencers

are like here's every single detail of my private life for you to comment on and to write articles on and it's going to bring me sponsorships and attention that's a contract that they're engaging in there with the media but if someone else says no none of that that's also a contract that has to be respected and i'm recording all of this what date is it it's saturday the saturday the 22nd it's last saturday you're listening to this on wednesday and i'm pre-recording this because i'm going to canada i've two gigs in canada so i'm pre-recording this on saturday and i know that on Monday morning because Sunday is a slow day for the news, on Monday fucking morning my phone is going

to be hopping with all the radio stations and newspapers going blind boy would you come on for about five minutes and talk about the New York Times mentioning your real name and explain to people why you wear the bag in your head no, and even better, when they're doing all those fucking phone calls,

I'm going to be in an airplane. I'm going to be above the Atlantic Ocean on the way to a different country to do my gigs. So thank fuck. Because I saw one of the tabloids already commenting on it, commenting on that thing within the New York Times, my real name being used.

They published an article about it, so I know that by Monday, I know the radio stations and the newspapers that are going to try and contact me, so I'm going to be in an airplane, not answering my phone, and anything I'm saying about it, I'm saying on this week's podcast,

which is going out on Wednesday, and I don't want to sound in any way ungrateful at all, I'm so fucking happy to have been featured in the New York Times and so happy for all of ye for making that possible

it means the absolute world to me it's just the reason that that means the world to me is different to how it is expected of me

to be excited about it the reason I'm saying that is that tabloid who reported on me having an issue with my real name being in the expected of me to be excited about it. The reason I'm saying that is, that tabloid who reported on me having an issue with my real name being in the New York Times, there was a tone to it. And I knew that the tone that they were posting was, ungrateful little shit is in the New York Times and he has a problem that they printed his name. And that's a common thing I see.

Some people are real angry with me for having a plastic bag in my head. And that anger, sometimes it stems from a jealousy. They're not jealous of me, but some people can be like, you have that thing that I want. I'd love recognition. I'd love to be in the paper. You have that. And you don't want it. And this makes me angry.

You're ungrateful. I'm not ungrateful. I'm unbelievably happy and appreciative. I'm grateful that my work is in the New York Times. My work is in there. I'm okay to want my work in the New York Times but also not want me, my name because me didn't do anything

so if you're getting annoyed with a person because they want to try and maintain privacy while still putting work out publicly just don't assume everyone is neurotypical I understand some people would really really really love notoriety of any description some people would really, really, really love notoriety of any description. Some people don't. Some people legitimately, genuinely don't.

And I'm one of those people. I think people who want fame are mad. I think people who want fame and notoriety are fucking mad. Like imagine neurodivergent people made the rules of society. And not neurotypical people. So you live in a society and most people are neurodivergent. The people who want fame are then the mad ones. Imagine I was a psychiatrist and I'm like,

all right, okay, you were at a carvery, was it? Okay, and you saw Paul Meskell. And what did you do when you saw Paul Meskell? You went up and asked Paul Meskell for a photograph you do when you saw Paul Meskell you went up and asked Paul Meskell for a photograph why did you do that because Paul Meskell's famous you really admire and look up to him and you found yourself getting uncontrollably excited when you saw Paul Meskell and why did you want a photograph with him to you wanted a photograph with Paul Meskel to put on your Instagram to show other people because this then would increase your status within a hierarchy in the eyes of other people, yeah?

I'm going to diagnose you now with level one neurotypical disorder. Oh, you've put yourself in debt because you've purchased a BMW that you couldn't afford. Why did you spend 80 grand on that BMW when you couldn't afford why did you why did you spend 80 grand on that BMW when you can't really afford it and get that huge loan from the bank you'd like your neighbors to see the BMW and to think more highly of you within this structure and status there's you see a hierarchy of people and you'd like to be at the top of that and owning a new BMW communicates higher status to your neighbors is that it but now you've put yourself in debt wow I can see that creating a lot of stress in your life I'm going to diagnose you with level one neurotypical disorder

and you're going to need a lot of support because you seem to think that the world revolves around different hierarchies of people and you must compete within that. And just taking it back to when you met Paul Meskell there in the cavalry, what did you speak to him about? Oh, you don't remember because you got really, really excited. You felt a rush of emotion because you were beside a famous person and you couldn't speak properly because of this rush of emotion.

And were there no door handles to talk about, no? You didn't speak to Paul Meskell about the history of door handles. And how many door handles were in the room? Are you interested in the history of door handles? Not at all. That's strange because what's normal in this society is to be very, very, very interested in the history of door handles for no reason. And to see Paul Meskell as just a human being called Paul who's in things that are on TV. I can see how difficult it would be for neurotypical people like you to live in this neurodivergent society.

I'm just doing a little thought experiment there. Me explaining to a fucking psychologist how little I care about fame or social hierarchies got me diagnosed with autism autism neurodivergence it's just a different type of brain that's all it is a different type of brain and if neurodivergent people were the majority something like a cavalry needing to be shut down because Paul Meskel walks in that would be considered, that would be considered mad. That would be considered too far. But it's not. It's not. It's actually quite acceptable to become extremely overstimulated

in the presence of famous people or when access to fame might even be in discussion. It's also completely normal to buy a fucking car for a hundred grand, even if it puts you in debt, to impress your neighbors and maintain some type of social hierarchy that's all normal stuff doesn't look normal to me that looks insane my brain doesn't reward me for that stuff i don't get rewards in my brain for that stuff i get rewards my brain gives me rewards when i think about I bet you the history of door handles would be really interesting

if I looked into it or I don't know the fucking guitar solos of Frank Zappa that's what gives me rewards I hope all this that's a rather extravagant explanation that's my yearly explanation as to why I wear a plastic bag in my head

my yearly explanation and I hope that one made sense it's time now for an ocarina pause. That was 40 fucking minutes. It's time now for an ocarina pause before I get on to part two of the podcast. Which is a conversation

about drugs laws in Ireland with Dr. Sharon Lambert who's a psychologist who works in trauma. So that's in part two. I'm going to... Here's the shaker pause. You're going to hear an advert for something. On April 5th...

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leave a review tell a friend word of mouth share the podcast on your social media. You know the crack. Have I gigs to promote? I'm not going to promote gigs this week. I'm technically in Toronto right now, which means it's too late to talk about those gigs.

And I don't, I don't, let's just not promote gigs this week. That's grand, I can do it next week. So, second part of the podcast. In Ireland, we have we have drugs laws that centre around criminalisation. We have quite outdated

drugs legislation in this country that actively harms people and criminalises people. We don't have a health-based approach to drugs in this country, whether that be cannabis or opiates. So in Ireland what we're having at the moment is what's called the Citizens' Assembly on Drugs.

I'll try and explain this as simply as possible. Imagine it's like jury duty, except it's about drugs. It's like they try and get a group of people that represent everybody in Ireland and then present to them evidence and questions and findings and expert witnesses about drugs.

And then this citizens' assembly deliver a report to go, having heard the evidence, we think that drugs should be legalised in Ireland, or we think it should stay the same and all drugs should be criminalised. The findings of this Citizens' Assembly is brought to the government and to the legislators, and then technically the government would go,

OK, well, the Citizens' Assembly said that cannabis should be completely legal, but maybe heroin should be illegal. And then technically the government should go, well, then let's make that happen then. We had a Citizens' Assembly. We listened to the people. Let's do that so if that's what people want. Technically, that's how it should work. So this Citizens' Assembly is happening right now.

It's incredibly important for the future of drug laws in Ireland obviously I would like to see sensible drug laws that are informed by a health led approach, something that prioritises safety

and is caring, rather than just fucking everyone in jail and calling them criminals so I've brought onto the podcast Dr Sharon Lambert And is caring. Rather than just fucking everyone in jail and calling them criminals. So I've brought on to the podcast. Dr. Sharon Lambert. Who's been a guest on this podcast. I think twice, maybe three times so far. Sharon is a psychologist.

She's a researcher. She works in the areas of trauma. Drug use. Homelessness. She is an expert on the impact of drugs on Irish society. And she was asked to speak before the Citizens Assembly last week, the Citizens Assembly on drugs. So I'm going to speak to Sharon now about what was it like being asked to speak for the Citizens Assembly and to give her really informed research-based findings and opinions on drugs in Ireland and on drug use. So here we go, here's the chat with Sharon Lambert. So Sharon, you were asked to speak before the Citizens

Assembly, which is a, that's a huge deal, it's a massive deal before i even ask you about it how did you feel being asked to speak at the citizens assembly ah god actually i had two feelings the first was obviously that you know you've just said it there's a huge weight attached to it yeah because i have worked not obviously i work in a university now and a lot of my research is on this um so i'm deeply kind of connected to it. And it's really important to me. But before I worked in a university, I did work in a lot of different community settings.

So people know that I worked in an addiction service, but maybe people don't know that before I ever be, you know, became a psychologist, I was actually a youth worker and I was a community worker. So this is something I've been hoping for for a very, very long time. So it was a really big deal to be asked and it felt like it was a huge weight because I didn't want to let anybody down.

But another feeling that I had before I went was I was nervous about that, but I was also nervous about trusting the process. And just, I'm going to say to the listeners that this because there's people outside of ireland the citizens assembly is it's it's an assembly on drugs that engages citizens to discuss drug policy with the hope of potentially changing some laws in ireland around drugs and that's what the citizens assembly is and we did it before with the the referendum to repeal the eight with abortion there was a citizens assembly before that so a lot of people are very

hopeful that here's our chance here's the chance to be heard for a wide group of people to say we want change in drugs legislation and then for the government and the legislators to listen and actually change it. But that's what the Citizens Assembly is. So you were there, as you said, all day listening to what was happening at this assembly. What were your thoughts there? Yeah, so the Citizens Assembly, like as you said, we've had some before. The other one we had, of course which was a quite a historic outcome was the the marriage equality referendum and you know so so you have gay

marriage in ireland now and uh we were the first it says that there are loads of countries that have that we are we were the first country where it was the citizens of Ireland who decided that as opposed to, you know, somebody coming along and saying, you know, this is what we're doing. So that's the whole thing. So, you know, I suppose with the Citizens Assembly, one of the things about it is like, it's kind of a bit cynical because I was saying, you know, they pick these hot topics that they don't want to make the decision themselves because, you know, it might impact on who's going to vote for me the next time. So there's a little bit of me kind of going, I don't know, why don't you just make evidence based decisions and get on with it?

And this has been your work. The other thing I was thinking, too, from your point of view, this has been your work for years. And now it's like, here's your opportunity to actually be heard and go, this is what I've actually be heard and go this is what I've done in my work this is what I've seen I've seen the impact of legislation on drugs on human beings and this is what I have to say I was never more nervous about anything I have done professionally than speaking at the citizens assembly because I will never have a bigger opportunity to make impact on policy. I do research all of the time

and sometimes people read it and sometimes they don't, you know. And, you know, I'm a bit of a dose. I'm always complaining on the media and stuff as well about policies not being evidence based. But, you know, this was such a huge opportunity.

So I really wanted it to be great. But I was really nervous because, you know this was such a huge opportunity so I really wanted it to be great um but I was really nervous because you know sometimes when there are different aspects of the state that I have interacted with where I have felt disappointed afterwards and I said you know I'm really nervous about this so I wasn't speaking until the afternoon but I had the opportunity to be there all day and I I took that because there have been other citizens assemblies and I'm aware of them, but I didn't really understand the mechanics. And I thought I really need to know how this is working. So this is our third time doing a podcast.

And I actually turned up with notes today. I normally just wrap up a movie and me docs. Right. But I want to get this right because it's really important because I was very, you know, I had a bit of skepticism. Like I have a fear. My fear is that maybe

the Citizens Assembly is performative. It may make us feel as if, oh, they're talking about change. But it's like, are you going to fucking actually change now after the Assembly?

Well, mine was, you know, who's going to have the ability to speak that was what mine was about and what voices are heard and things like that so so they were the things i was worried about so i in terms of i'm going to bore people now but i'm just so excited about the actual process so um 99 people uh members of the public are invited to participate in the citizens assembly and you have these and you know i hope they won't be insulted but they're they're kind of like statistical policy geeks like they get really excited about um how do you get 99 people that represent yeah i'd love to know that so they you know they go well 50 of

the population are women 50 are men and you know then you have other people who might be non-binary or transgender so you look at all of that and you say right you know you need this then you have urban rural you have people with disabilities you have people from ethnic minority groups such as members of the traveling community and and then you have people who have positions on this issue so you have people who would be very strongly you know in favour of decriminalisation and legalisation

then you have people who say oh my god don't even go there that sounds terrifying and then you have people who go yeah I don't really know anyone who's taken drugs and I don't know anything about it. So you could have some lad called Declan who drives a bus, who's never even seen a giant. And now all of a sudden they're asking him about drugs. Yeah.

So what they want to do is they want to say this is we need to have people who represent the citizens of Ireland. The things I'm going to go straight into the things that I was worried about before I went. I'm going to go straight into the things that I was worried about before I went. Things like, you know, blind boy turns up and he says, everyone who uses cannabis ends up with a mental health problem and it's really dangerous. And it's actually, you know, as you know, because you know a lot about it, you know, there's loads of nuance about that. So I was saying, what if somebody comes in and they say something like that something inflammatory yeah you know what's it and and maybe he you know maybe you wrap it up in a few statistics as well to make it look

you know really because you can you know any study that i look at in in relation to drug use i can take statistics out of that and i can present it in a whole range of ways so i mean sharon very easily i within two sentences i can present alcohol as something that utterly destroys your life or i can present alcohol as something that gives you a good night yeah so that very worried me that you know how do you get the nuance off it's not as simple as when you had your opportunity to speak what what points did you raise? Because, like, you're trauma-informed, you're someone who's worked in services, you'd have a view on drugs that would be similar to mine. Like, I'm quite, I like the Portuguese model, for instance, or something similar to it. Like, what points did you bring to the Assembly?

So I was on a panel discussion. It was hosted by Dervyn MacDonald. It was called a Fireside Chat, which was interesting because in every other Citizens Assembly that has gone in the past, what you've always had is people coming in doing a presentation. They'd never done anything like this before. But that sounds like a podcast that sounds lovely that sounds conversational it was conversational and the reason why they did that was because the the morning was all about the statistics you know here's okay statistics at

a european level at an irish level and bearing in mind that you have such a mix of people in the room you have to start off at the beginning. This is what drugs are. These are the different types that are available. Wow. These are why people do it. So, you know, there was a lot of heavy information. So we talked about, you know, trauma and poverty and the things that lead to dependence.

So 90% of people who use drugs don't end up in difficulty, but then you have this 10% who do, and for them, life can be extremely painful and chaotic, and it's extremely difficult for their families and their communities. So I suppose some time was spent on that, and there could be some criticism as to, well, you're talking about 10 sharon where's the rest of us the ones who like to sit at home in our pajamas on a friday night and and you know consume cannabis and eat a bag of maltesers so so that will come there will be you know a lived experience session which is the next session in may which will cover everybody and you know i mean and you're going to get someone going i took acid and it changed my life like that type of lived

experience you're going to get someone like like the people who i had great crack with mdma uh cannabis is wonderful for my experience of living like are these will these people speak and get to speak on that level my understanding is is that every aspect of taking drugs is going to be discussed at this assembly, not just... So there'll be someone going, I also get terrible anxiety from cannabis and this doesn't suit me at all and I wish I never did it. There will be. So what was discussed was the fact that people use drugs and that some people use drugs and have a positive, it has a positive feeling for them. Some people use drugs and it ends up with negative consequences for them. And all of those voices are going to be represented at the assembly. So perhaps maybe people who were watching our session, the fireside chat session, you know, if you are one of those 90 you might have felt well you know i don't know if

he talked enough about us now i did i did mention it i did say you know there are loads of people who use drugs and and you know there are some people who would argue that that's a human rights issue and that they should be entitled to and actually on sunday morning i watched the live stream of all of the sessions on sunday and one of the speakers that was there was speaking about human rights and they were speaking about how prohibition can be a human rights violation for people who do want to use drugs, you know? So, so when you get into, if, if, I mean, Jesus, some people who have severe dependencies on drugs and they get to a point

whereby if they don't if they don't have access to that drug they could die yeah yeah i mean well actually you know the only the only two you can die from from withdrawal alcohol and heroin no alcohol and benzodiazepines oh god i've heard that benzo withdrawal is absolutely awful well it can kill you so so withdrawal from heroin is extremely physically and psychologically painful, but it won't kill you. Now, I say that. Benzos is like Xanax and stuff, isn't it?

Yeah, those kinds of things. Withdrawal, you have to, if you're using a lot of benzodiazepines tablets, you have to do, it is absolutely advised to have a medically managed detox because if you are using way more than you ought to be and that is recommended for a daily amount if you withdraw suddenly you can have a seizure and you can die and it's the same with alcohol if you withdraw those people need to be protected 100 Oh, 100%. Yeah. So with alcohol as well, if you withdraw quite suddenly and you are, you know, physically dependent on alcohol, you can get a seizure and you can die. So in terms of all of the drugs out there, they're the only two that can kill you. And it's interesting, they're the two that are not illegal.

Yeah. You know, so that's interesting. But yeah, so that in the fireside chat, we tried, you know, all of us are really passionate about different aspects. So it was a short enough time. We had a I think it was 50 minutes and there was four of us speaking. And I was very happy with it, though. I mean, there were things that, you know, when you come home, you say, oh, God, I wish I'd said this. But I have to forgive myself for that.

I had a small amount of time. oh God, I wish I'd said this, but I have to forgive myself for that. I had a small amount of time. But what I felt was, because sometimes when I go to things and I haven't said something, I say, oh God, why didn't I say that? I'm confident that somebody else will. You know, so I think it made it easier for me to, because I would have liked to have spent more time talking about those people who have a positive experience of drugs.

And of course, that's not what I do, because that's the other thing is when you're talking about psychology and psychiatry and medicine, when you hear us talking about drug use, and you'll hear a lot of people on the media, you know, over the next few months as well, talking about the harm associated with drug use use they are only seeing the 10 i mean if you're sitting at home and you're using drugs and you're happy with your drug use and you feel like it's not harming you or anybody else you're not going down to the doctor you're not going to the psychologist or the psychiatrist no one knows about you no no one knows about you and like the like people let's just take cannabis as an example the adult the professional adults of which there's fucking loads who have a joint and love it and get on with their lives they're not

roaring and shouting about it you don't hear about it the other thing the most for me because you know i'm all about social exclusion and poverty that's my my gig right so the the slides that actually stood out to me the most was in a presentation from two wonderful ladies from the HRB the health research board and they had presented the latest data in relation to drug use and alcohol use in Ireland. And what was, you know, amazing was there is exactly the same prevalence of drug use across every socioeconomic group. There's no difference. So poor people are not using... In Ireland. In Ireland, okay. People in

areas of economic deprivation are not using more drugs and alcohol than people who are very wealthy. We're all, all socioeconomic groups are all using the same amount. Wow. But the people who live in areas of socioeconomic deprivation are experiencing more drug-related harm. Wow. socioeconomic deprivation are experiencing more drug-related harm like if so if you live in an area that is is considered to be poor and how they measured it actually was not necessarily by area but actually on your if you were under 18 your parents socioeconomic bracket or if you were over 18 your own socioeconomic so what they found was if you were in the poor category you were much more likely to be diagnosed with this cannabis use disorder

or you're much more likely to experience drug-related intimidation of course yeah so i just looked at it and i thought have you any opinions on that what why would someone who's poorer what like i know i want to know that but why would a person who is is is suffering with say poverty why are they more likely to experience the negative effects of cannabis on their brain but he's are they experiencing more negative effects of cannabis on their brain something else so that's the question so for me it's about the relationship So for me, it's about the relationship and you've spoken about this, about the

relationship with the substance and what it does. So, I mean, if I go home this evening, and I won't be just in case anybody thinks I am, I will be standing at a soccer pitch with one of the children, and I'll be going to bed early because I have to be up early in the morning, but if I

decided I was going to go home this evening and I was going to consume cannabis, which I have to be up early in the morning but um if I decided I was going to go home this evening and I was going to consume cannabis which I won't be because it's not something you're supposed to do in this country but if I did decide to do that why would I be doing it so I might say you know oh I was on blind boy well done me I'm going to go home now and I'm going to have a beer and I might have a smoke or a cannabis cookie or whatever and I'm going to go home now and I'm going to have a beer and I might have a smoke or a cannabis cookie or whatever and I'm going to feel good about your accomplishments and have it as a little reward yes happy life if I go home this evening and one of the children says I need 10 euros for photocopying in school tomorrow and I don't have it and you have the shame of poverty and the stress of not being able to meet

my children's needs, and I decide that I'm going to consume cannabis, I'm using it and I need it for an entirely different reason. Wow. So if cannabis was the problem, why is it not having an equal impact across all communities? Why is money the buffer? Why is money the thing that stops you developing cannabis use disorder? So if you went back and you said, oh, the only other thing that somebody could come along and say is, oh, poor people are just not good enough. That's why they become addicted. poor people are just not good enough.

That's why they become addicted. And that's not true because there's absolutely no evidence to support that I am genetically different than anybody else. So, you know, so so we have to stop talking about drugs in isolation.

You cannot talk about drugs without talking about somebody's social context. Another point as well, just there on cannabis. So like I'm going to Canada next week to gig where it's completely legal, right? 100% legal. And I'm going to walk into a dispensary where it's like walking into a wine shop

and I'm going to get a joint and I'm going to smoke it. And I've done that before in countries where it is legal. And I've always had a wonderful experience with it and I've often wondered how much of that is because I'm like this is just like a glass of wine here I'm not going to get arrested I'm doing nothing wrong I'm not a criminal I know that what the person has given me in this lovely shop is exactly what they said they were going to give me and it's completely different experience to when I might have done it illegally here or I don't know what I'm getting or I'm afraid of feeling like a criminal afraid of of getting caught smoking a joint and then

you have a completely different experience yeah so like and we've talked about drug related harm there and you're talking about going to Canada. So one of the things I did bring up in the fireside chat was when we talk about drug related harm, we often talk about it from a medical or psychological perspective. But another drug related harm is criminalization. drug-related harm is criminalization yeah so you know if you get a criminal record as a result of your drug use that is also a drug-related harm because it impacts on your ability to have all of the opportunities so for example if you well if i'd have gotten caught years ago i wouldn't be going to canada now i was just going to say you wouldn't be going to Canada. So your career would be very limited. I remember it over the recession when I was in my early 20s

and every single person I knew was emigrating to Canada or Australia. The ones that didn't were the ones who got caught dealing when they were 17 or 18. And the ones that got caught dealing when they were 17 or 18 were also the ones that got caught dealing when they were 17 or 18 were also the ones who were from the poorer backgrounds where when they got caught, the judge didn't say, ah, they come from a good family. They got a sentence

and then they couldn't emigrate. Or also, I mean, if you were 17 and you have money and your buddy who's 17 doesn't have money and you both want to consume cannabis, one of you is going to have to, one of you might have the ability to pay for it themselves and the other one's going to have to come up with a way to to pay for it so um but it was you know that's one of the things we did discuss was about not having a narrow view of drug-related harm that criminalization is also

a harm and you know i was really disappointed in 2022. I thought we would have had the Citizens Assembly on Drugs last year, and Lin Wan was pushing really hard for it. And they had one in relation to the Lord Mayor in Dublin first, and I remember thinking, oh, who gives a shit about the Lord Mayor in Dublin? They had a Citizens Assembly

about whether there should be a Lord Mayor in Dublin. Directly elected Lord Mayor. Oh, for the love of fuck. Like, look, Blind a Lord Mayor in Dublin? Directly elected Lord Mayor. Oh, for the love of fuck. But I am, like, look, Blind Boy, people in Dublin might care about that, so let's... Okay, yeah, yeah, fair enough. We got one done in Limerick. We got a directly elected Mayor in Limerick.

I didn't care. I honestly didn't care because I just thought, Jesus Christ, there are people who are... There's more important things. Well, for me, this was, for me, drugs, drugs was more important. And I remember watching Lynne Ruan. She was speaking in the Senate and she was really trying to push for this one to be happening sooner.

And she got quite emotional. I was watching and I started crying as well. And I thought, you know, there are communities out there and people out there where this isn't just a citizens assembly. This is their all day, every day and the harm that's come from it. And the Psychological Society of Ireland in 2022, the president at the time, Vincent McDarby, issued a statement. And it was quite a strong statement for, you know, the Psychological Society of Ireland, which many people would maybe perhaps consider to be quite a conservative group. I think we're all really cool, but other people might think we're very conservative. So, you know, Vincent came out and he, you know, he called really

strongly and he said, you need to do this and you need to do it really quickly. And the Psychological Society of Ireland took the position that they do not believe that people who use drugs should be criminalized. Because when you have a criminal conviction, it can cause it has the potential to cause a lifelong stigma. And I'm quoting the Psychological Society of Ireland and that it creates exclusion from employment and other opportunities. So that, I guess, was one of the things I was worried about is are we going to be just focusing on the 10% where it's problematic use and then within that are we just going to be focusing on you know the medical psychological piece um and I felt like all of that was addressed in the first weekend I mean in in in as much as it could be it was that this is the introduction to the stuff, lads.

There's going to be all of these other sessions and you will have an opportunity to learn more about all of these things. And what I thought was beautiful about it is that it has, and I was talking to somebody about this at the weekend and they're saying, they said to me,

so you're saying they're kind of making it up as they go along because there's no invited speakers. And I said, no, that is not an accurate way to describe this. They could not, they could not decide on the programme until the citizens had all met together in one room because they are the ones who get to

input into the programme with advice from these other committees that have been set up so are you excited me yeah i'm very excited i i have i just have such a cynicism there's a cynicism in me about the irish political class i am excited about this assembly. What I'm wary of is will the outcomes of this assembly actually lead to real change?

Will the people in power, do they have to listen to this, Sharon? That's what I want to know. Okay, that's the only question. Jesus, you should have asked somebody else to come on because it's the only question I don't, I know that that was asked. It's advisory. I think this is really on because it's the only question I don't, I know that that was asked. Is it just that it's

advisory, I think this is really just that it's advisory. The government could probably still turn around, like if the outcome of this was do you know what, let's do it like Portugal, let's fucking legalise everything. Like, did the government then

Well they didn't legalise it, they decriminalised it. Or decriminalised it, sorry. Like if that was the outcome of this Citizens Assembly, I don't know, are the government going to go, okay, let's do this, I don't know. Well, you see, I suppose, look, the other way of looking at it, because I don't know the answer to that, but I can tell you if I was a politician and I was looking at this,

one of the things that happened with the other issues, which were quite hot potato issues, abortion, same-sex marriage, and a view that Ireland is a very conservative country. So let's be careful about what we're seeing, what flag we put our mast on. So, I mean, if it comes back that you have this group of people and i'm not going to preempt what people are going to end up deciding you know but but if you if i was a

politician and i saw all of these recommendations and i realize this is this is representative of what the public believe i would attach myself to it It would be the sensible thing to do because otherwise you're going against. And often actually. Yeah, that looks bad. We often actually and this happened with the others. People operate a lot in silos and we think, you know, we hang around with our own groups and we think, oh, we're really cool, but everyone else is not. not and what you found from the other things is actually there's a whole load of people out there who are interested in listening to to research to evidence to lived experience perspectives um and possibly i think because of covid we've become even more siloed and i think that that perhaps me made me more anxious as well um but I I sat there and

I you know I observed uh for the whole day and I did I did watch it online on the second day I planned to watch all of these online um and uh and I thought you know I feel really I feel really hopeful here and and whatever the will be, it will be really difficult to ignore them, I think. What I'd love to know is what do you want, aside from the Citizens Assembly, right? If you had a magic wand, how would you, within your experience, like to see drugs in Ireland and how they're legislated? I want to see policy that's informed by evidence and the evidence is that criminalising people causes harm. So i want to see policy that's informed by evidence and and the evidence is is that criminalizing people causes harm so i want to see decriminalization of of all drugs for possession

and then there's the legalization thing and i we spoke about this in 2020 didn't we yeah or whenever it was and at the time there were states that were just and I was saying look Blind Boy I don't know because the research is this is kind of new so I've been watching it In America like the legal states in America? The legal states so when we spoke about it in 2020 you asked me did I have

a position and I said I don't know yet so I was looking at that and I've been measuring that and you asked me my position in 2020 and I said I don't know because I think the research is not up to date enough and and actually in 2023 and I looked last night and in 2023 um the studies that have come out so far this year it's a little bit mixed actually um go on tell us so in some states so so one of the big things is is that when you legalize cannabis use there is a bit of an increase right so that's a novelty factor i imagine if that happened here as well people would say oh my god i don't have to

go to amsterdam i'm going to go down the road and then they might do it for a couple weeks and say okay i'm bored with that now i'm going back to you know sea swimming or whatever it is they do um so you have that kind of initial spike and then it starts to soften off again one of the things so often then when people are presenting the research they say oh look cannabis use has increased particularly in young people this is really scary but actually some of the studies i've been following and i looked at one yesterday which looked at long a longitudinal look at at uh at cannabis uses it was being legalized in different states and yes in young people cannabis use did increase but you know what decreased go on alcohol use okay so then you'd say to yourself right is this a good or a bad thing? Right.

So if you look at Professor David Nott in the UK when he was at King's College London and he had been. A very unfortunate name for an advocate for cannabis. Yes. But he'd been asked to look at the classification for drugs. So alcohol is much more harmful than cannabis so then you might say okay well if they're going to do something maybe cannabis is better than alcohol but then you will have people who will say they should do nothing right nothing you shouldn't do any of it it's really bad for you and that is true when you drink alcohol it is it is a carcinogenic yeah yeah it's linked cancer. When you drink alcohol, if you drink it a lot,

it might make you do something to hurt yourself or hurt other people or you might have an accident or an injury. If you smoke cannabis, smoking is bad for you. So presumably,

if you're smoking cannabis, you're adding tobacco to it and things like that, which is also bad. Tobacco is also bad for you. I'm going to ask you another question and this again is base again your opinion really your opinion because you're a psychologist and you work in trauma like would you like to see you're familiar with the work that's happening around the world at the moment with the use of psilocybin or MDMA in therapies, specifically with trauma. Would you like to see that happen in Ireland and for people to have access to that opinion?

There are already people in Ireland doing it. But not legally. No, I know. And I have heard them speak in public about their experience of it. I would prefer people to be safe. Yeah. So if, and I know you've had Paul Zinckley. Paul Litnitsky. Yeah. And now he's doing it clinically. But I know people in Ireland who go off to a retreat and do a mushroom retreat. And it's like, who's the person?

This person's a shaman. Who are they? Yeah. And that's for me. That's why I wouldn't do it. Because I'm like, this is just a lad called Niall with dreadlocks. Sorry, Niall. But I'd prefer if I could see some training here.

You know what I mean? And we had here in Applied Psychology in UCC we had a really interesting guest on who is looking at the use of this as well in the state so they had worked with a group of men who who developed

HIV AIDS at a time when that was a a fatal diagnosis. There was no treatment. And hugely stigmatized. And hugely stigmatized. And there was a huge amount of trauma associated with that because a lot of them died. So of the people then who survived, living through that stigmatization

and the fear of death and all of that thing was, what they had found was there was this group who were severely traumatized. So they did a study with them and he came and he presented that here, Joshua, Willie is his name.

And he was really interesting. So for the people who had participated in the study he he's based in the university of california and uh he directs the psychedelic research program there yeah so so what they had found was that um when they the people use the psychedelics that the experience was that they, it was, it was emotional. And some of that emotion was negative because it was bringing up, you know,

kind of trauma experiences, but then that afterwards, um, that they felt better. So, so, you know, and then those people are being followed up.

So, so what you're saying, you're, I know you're saying to me, Sharon, that's such a political answer. You're not getting to the point. So I am going to get to the point. And the point is, is that if you come back to me in two or three years time and you say, we have this body of data now, Sharon, that shows that this particular thing is an effective

treatment for people who have experienced chronic trauma, who where nothing else has worked or actually this is just what they want to do. And we can do this and say that they won't experience harm and we can do it in a really safe way. If you're asking me, would I support that? Absolutely. I get you. You don't form opinions unless you have data and evidence.

I'm a researcher. Yeah. Yeah. I can't make a cake. i'm going on vibes you know no i'm going on vibes i'm going this looks great loads of people are but i i don't have like you're going that's fantastic blind boy but i want to see some data i want to see some studies i do because there are things in the past that perhaps i've gotten excited about and then when i've gone looking a bit further i I've gone, oh, I don't know now.

Because 50% of the people who did that, I'm not talking about drug research, but other things. 50% of the people who did this said it was amazing. And 50% ended up with a really adverse experience. And then I would say, how do we make that safer for everybody because it can't be that 50 50 you know so um and not yet because when you're a researcher you just end up that's where your head works so I could meet you on the street and you could say you know isn't that a lovely view and I would say not because I'm a psychologist and people might think I might say because I'm a psychologist and I'll say, why?

Why is it a lovely view? Not necessarily. People would say, oh, because you're a psychologist, you always overthink things. And it's not actually. It's because of a researcher. And you can go to a researcher anywhere in a university and say that. And they'll go, why? What specifically?

So that's what I'm always thinking about is show me the data and how long has it gone on for and and with the data who is presenting it yes who is funding it uh i can read a study and say i think sometimes actually when i read some of the cannabis ones i do get a bit frustrated when they talk about um that's what i want to ask you about because i have seen now i can't remember the exact association or the names right but in the irish media in the past three years i've seen groups of i think they're irish doctors i don't know as a psychiatrist i think they might be irish doctors and they have come out and said cannabis is dangerous and it creates psychosis and they're very vocal about this and i've always wondered like what's their deal you see you know what i'm talking about aren't you

i do know who you're talking about yeah so there's lots of different groups in ireland who advocate for different positions and i know the group that you're talking about there so you you are right they are people who are doctors and psychiatrists so so you have to remember that your truth and their truth is different so their experience of people who use drugs are the people who come to them in difficulty um yes that's the you know so if i'm working in an a and e on a saturday night okay you know my experience and my truth of drug use is not going to be the same as yours. So there is that. And if you have a different truth and you're listening to other people's experiences of

what do they see and what do they perceive, then I guess you could get annoyed. But that's why I like the citizens' assemblies because everybody will get their truth spoken. And then the citizens will have to weigh up all of those different perspectives and decide, you know, what's the deal here? So there are people... So are you saying that maybe maybe those those doctors are because

even my own doctor Sharon my own doctor when I was doing a checkup asked me do you smoke and I'm like no I don't and then I said I'd have a joint now and again and he straight up said to me don't go near that cannabis stuff that that will have you in severe mental distress and he was really strong about it like and are you saying that these doctors maybe they are seeing a lot of people presenting with cannabis psychosis or they're seeing things that happen to people like this because of cannabis and this is coloring their their view and they're not maybe looking at the data the way that you would as a researcher well you know it's there all day

every day and i mean i have worked i worked in in in the community in an addiction service nobody came in to us and said hi sharon i'd like an appointment because i smoke cannabis and it's great crack can we chat about it nobody ever came to me with that because let's be honest people there are people in the country and like they smoke cannabis like anytime i mention it online someone will come to me and say that's great blind boy that you like cannabis however my brother's fucked and my brother smoked joints and now he's not the same and that's anecdotally a thing that i do see yeah Yeah. I don't want to ignore it, but I'd love to know more about it. And what you said earlier is real interesting,

that it tends to present with people who have more socioeconomic challenges. Yeah. So they experience the most harm. So you're going to have people who have different experiences. So the 90% of people who use drugs the group of people who who are kind of using drugs the most actually is students so um and a lot of them do that during college and then they go away and they they get a mortgage and then that's the end of all of that so um but then you do have this group who experience very

significant harm but they are this they are that 10% of people who use drugs. But, but as I said, if you work in a service, you don't see the 90%. So you, your, your view of drugs is that this is terrible. And why in the name of Jesus would anybody want to do this? Because you're seeing, like even, I'm getting to the age now where I'm seeing lads who I knew when I was a kid and now they're street drinkers, if you know what I mean. They're on the streets, they don't have a home and they're drinking the can of cider all day long. And these are, I'm like, I remember him when he was a kid every single one of those lads had a very very very tough childhood none of them were like me

where they had opportunities and a loving family these were all lads who since I knew them had it fucking tough but I love cans as well I love drinking cans I love having a bit of wine but I'm not out on the street

you know what I mean because it's when you drink or you when you go to Canada and you smoke that joint you're doing it because it's a treat or a reward you're not doing it because it's a treat or a reward. It's a reward. You're not doing it because

you are experiencing such emotional pain that you cannot survive in your own head and you cannot function without it. Because I had the privilege of, I can emotionally regulate because from a very young age, I knew that I was loved and I never had to doubt it

and it's not even just you know that people are in it's poverty the stress of poverty there's loads of different things and when we talk about trauma actually sometimes people view trauma as as interpersonal as something that somebody does to another person and actually there are lots of different types of traumas so racism community trauma community and racism discrimination poverty and medical illness and medical injury in relation to the cannabis and psychosis so in relation to psychosis in general actually one of the biggest predictors for psychosis is trauma now not everybody who has psychosis has experienced trauma we know that that is one of the biggest things that causes it

um and then if you think about where somebody says drug-induced psychosis so i've done research with people who are experiencing homelessness some of whom who have been diagnosed with drug-induced psychosis and when i have spoken to them they have used drugs a lot. They have also experienced a lot of trauma in childhood. So how do I know which one of these? I can't separate them out now. That was Gabor Mate's finding. That's what changed Gabor Mate. When he, as a doctor, was on the streets of Vancouver

dealing with people with addiction. And then he went, but every single person with addiction here also has quite a bit of trauma too. But every single person with addiction here also has quite a bit of trauma, too. Not everybody in addiction has experienced trauma, but certainly a huge amount of people have. A huge amount, of course. Yeah, a huge amount.

And it's the same with psychosis. And I remember, you know, sometimes when you talk to people, particularly people who are not everybody who's homeless has experienced trauma, because, of course course the profile of homelessness has changed so much in Ireland of course like if you looked at you know 20 years ago people who experienced homelessness would have come from terrible you know adverse experiences not you know that just oh sometimes oh their their parents didn't care about them it's much more complicated than that and um and then they'd say you know I'm really struggling with the mental health kind of angle because when I go in all they want to do is talk about my drugs and alcohol and nobody wants to talk about and they'll name something. And I'm not going to because people can imagine what it is, but it's horrendous. Of course, that the worst thing that somebody could do to harm you as a child. And they're like, I can't get somebody to talk to me

about this because they keep going on about the drugs and alcohol but you'll find that that that awful thing that happened to them happened when they were six or seven and when did you start using drugs when I was 12. Is this the dual diagnosis thing as well Sharon is getting into that territory yeah whereby if you have a mental health issue, but then you also have addiction, access to services becomes almost a catch-22. Oh, yeah. So if you're, you know, going to mental health services and you're using a lot of drugs and alcohol,

you'll be sent to addiction services. And if you go to addiction services and your mental health is really quite chronic and complex, then they would be very concerned about that and they might want you to go back to mental health. So I think... i think mental health won't take you if there's a smell of drink off you yeah so you know i spoke uh i think we spoke about this before because i did a project on on the impact of drug-related deaths on families and my phd student who's coming towards the end of his phd has followed up on that work and looked at in much greater detail with a number of different

groups and uh and and actually one of the things that was common when you were talking to families was just not being able to get the right service actually I would ask everybody so so Derek Quigley was a beautiful young woman who who had mental health difficulties and um she also had substance dependence and she died and she died six years ago and her death is considered a drug-related death and her mother Aileen Malone wrote an article in in hot press a couple of weeks ago yeah but I also heard her on on a radio show on on Matt Cooper yesterday she did an interview with matt cooper and i listened back to it last night and uh i think everybody should listen to it so she talks about the fact that her daughter you know would have had a you know a bit of anxiety and things

like that mental health you know not kind of chronic mental health but then started using drugs and and whatever that did for her it worked and then her drug use became became really you know dangerous for her and it caused her a lot of problems and and and she died and Aileen has you know lost, lost her beautiful daughter, beautiful, talented young woman who wrote poetry and was incredibly creative. And she's deeply invested in this in a way that I can never be. And, you know, touch wood, I won't be because this happens to lots of families. Yeah. families yeah and i think you know she spoke about what she what was needed for her beautiful daughter and what it was was she did not get the right service at the right time

um too many closed doors and then because drug use was criminalized um she felt that that made it a little bit more unsafe um for her daughter I really you know people should listen to that that that interview I found it I've heard Aileen speak before in different places but there was something about last night I don't know maybe it's because it's on the back of the citizens assembly and I'm feeling quite emotional about that process and really wanting it to be successful and there was something last night that really I I sat there for a long time afterwards thinking about her words you know the I'm going to ask you one last question Sharon and this is so we've spoken about drugs right but also the other impact of drugs is

is the policy around drugs the war on drugs What damage have you seen the war on drugs do in Ireland, in your work? The war on drugs disproportionately impacts socially excluded groups. So the war on drugs, and I haven't coined this phrase, somebody else says it's a war on the poor and a war on on on working class in a war if you go to america the war on drugs is primarily a war against black people yeah um in ireland it's a war a war against people in poverty so there are people who use drugs and there are people who get caught and there are people who have social capital and they will be able to you know undo some of the damage of that by having access to the financial means to pay people to help them and all of that kind of thing and then you will

have people who who won't and they are more likely to be criminalized and and vicky conway um who who was an amazing lecturer and researcher in the in the law in law in ireland and and vicky died um but she's she's a voice actually that i think will be missing because uh her area of expertise was a was a you know really around how we police different groups of people. And not just policing as in policing on the street, but actually the policing in terms of criminal justice interventions and consequences in court. And there are people who experience more harms than others. It's not equally distributed harm from the criminal justice system, you know.

Well, that's look i remember growing up certain lads would get caught with a little bit of hash or whatever and if they came from what we call in ireland a good family you hear that a lot at a lot of sentencings or court hearings they're from a good family and this person who got caught with a bit of hash gets off with a caution but then the person who didn't're from a good family. And this person who got caught with a bit of hash gets off with a caution. But then the person who didn't come from a good family or came from an area that was stigmatised, they got the sentence. I guess it's about what you see in terms of potential.

So, you know, if a young lad is in front of you and he's doing really well and he says says after college after college i'm going to be contributing member society um so jesus i don't want to you know damage that any further and then you have some young person who you know this isn't their their first rodeo and they might have been in a couple of weeks ago for you know spraying graffiti on something else and you're like no i'm done with this lad um so there is that so the people who are already experiencing difficulty experience more and more difficulty which makes it harder then to get out of that cycle but I do think that that's changing you know I really do think it's

changing because people are talking about the social determinants of health. So poverty is a consequence for all sorts of challenges. I mean, in the last couple of years, I've spoken at the district court judges conference, the circuit court judges conference, I've spoken to the Bar of Ireland, I've spoken to the DPP about trauma, its relationship with addiction and its relationship with mental health.

If you told me 20 years ago that, you know, about trauma, its relationship with addiction and its relationship with mental health. If you told me 20 years ago that, you know, all of these organizations and various different organizations in Ireland would be interested in anything psychology had to say, because we're often quite separated as disciplines. And then when we are, we think it's because people don't care and it's actually because we're just all really busy sometimes and we don't talk to each other enough um and i think actually one of the things that happened with one of the positives of covid was the fact that i was certainly invited to more interdisciplinary things because of zoom because of zoom i was at things that I would never normally be at. I've connected with disciplines and groups of people I wouldn't normally connect with. And example there's a lot to learn from the legal perspective and and how do you decide what what ends up on the curriculum and and if there's

nobody working there who's from psychology or mental health or wherever how do you even know that it's important because nobody has ever told you it's not your lane so because we had all of these different conversations going on there's's people saying, God, this is really important. And I've learned things that are really important for me to know that I didn't know. So I think I'm kind of kind of softening a bit, actually, in my old age, blind boy. And I'm kind of saying maybe I was too quick to assume that people don't care and rather than oh look there are people who don't care i know that i meet them of course yeah but but there are also these these people who i would have thought oh why don't they care about this

it's not that they don't care it's because nobody ever gave them the information so i'm feeling i'm feeling quite positive about a lot of things and you know that that's a big deal for me because I'm a total, I'm like, do I, have you ever met anyone who complains as much as I do? So for me to tell you that I like to, for me to tell you that I'm feeling really positive about a lot of things is a big deal. Like, like my, you know, my psychologist regularly ghosts me like in reality because I think I depress him and he needs a break for a while and then he comes back again so I can't wait to see him again because I'm going to be like I'm actually really positive and then he might you know he might hang in there

with me but but I am quite a because I get tired I've I've often been burnt out really burnt out by by seeing the same things over and over again and nothing changing and I get really mad I get tired. I've often been burnt out, really burnt out by seeing the same things over and over again and nothing changing and I get really mad. I get really, really mad. This is a bit of light at the end of the tunnel here. 100%. And actually you know, last year I was very angry. Jesus, I was very

angry. Somebody should have done me a favour and closed my Twitter account. And I know you follow me on twitter i assume you you muted me because i was out of control i was so mad i was so mad right everyone was a bit mad on twitter over fucking covid though come here i was i was so angry because because people who had already been socially excluded were becoming more and more socially excluded and then people were burnt out from covid and i was like lads why does nobody give a shit about people anymore and then the people who used to care are absolutely burnt out and they don't give a

shit anymore either so now i'm just getting really mad and but that's the thing i found with covid sharon and we're only all kind of getting out of it now is I'm yeah I always look at COVID from the grief a grief perspective and one of the things with grief especially if it's someone close to you who dies like for me it was my father one of the hardest things about that is the people around me my brothers my sister my ma I can't go to them for support because that the person is after dying on them too. And COVID is a bit like that. Who the fuck do you talk to about COVID? Who do you say to, God, COVID was awful. That was terrible for me. Even when I'm with my therapist, I feel guilty saying, Jesus, that lockdown there for two years was awful for my mental health. Can I talk about

how awful that was? That feels difficult to do because the fucking therapist had to do it as well. Yeah. So that's real tough. And it burnt everybody out and everybody was burnt out. And how do you talk about a thing that, like I said it on a podcast a few weeks ago, if one person, just one person person had contracted this rare disease called COVID only one person

and they had to stay inside their house for two years and they couldn't see their family you'd be the most famous person in the world the entire you'd be on the news you'd be on the Conor O'Brien show

going my god and you had to stay inside for two years and you had to wear a mask and you had to distance only for two years and you had to wear a mask and you had to distance only you but because it happened to everybody we don't we don't reflect on actually that was fucking awful and quite traumatizing like if you i found if i if i even say i experienced a bit of trauma from covid people get angry you didn't have it as hard as me.

Real anger comes up, which I know is trauma, but fuck me. I think for me as well, and this actually does link in with the Citizens Assembly as well, is that you can have a different way. Like one of the things that struck me. So if I take the fireside chat and you ask me, how did I feel at the start? And I said to you, I felt really nervous. Right. And there was loads of people presenting different presentations during the day. And I asked people, I said, how do you feel about being here?

You know, Citizen Assembly on Drugs has finally happened. And there were people who said, I really you know really nervous and like there's a weight the word weight was used a lot like there's a weight on me and that's the thing is depending on who you are where you're from or the work that you've done the issue will have a different weight so I'm really mad I might get really angry about something and somebody will say Jesus Sharon Lambert is a dose right yeah but it's because I'm not just thinking about policy or statistics these are people and I know them and or I've worked with them or their family members or whatever so so one of the things I think for a long time is I get really annoyed at how slow

progress is yeah and people will often say to me look you know change takes time Sharon and I go we don't have time people are dying people die you know this isn't a joke this isn't about time but but if I if I keep like that I'm I'm going to spiral out of I don't know all sorts of trouble so then you have to keep your own self-care and your own emotional boundaries and your own capacity to to emotionally regulate what i the analogy i often use for shit like this too is you know when you're on an airplane and you look at those what that what what do you do if there's an emergency on an airplane and the instruction says put your own mask on first and once you have your own mask on an airplane and the instruction says, put your own mask on first.

And once you have your own mask on, then you help the person beside you or the child. That's, you have to fucking look after your own boundaries and your own mental health because you're of no use to other people. You're not of any use to your community. And we're going to see this as the Citizens Assembly of Goresas as well. There were an awful lot of people who are invested in this process for different reasons and there are some

people who are living this all day every day and they're going to be you know they're going to say you're telling me that this is going to go on until october and then how long will it take to write up this and that and they will be really annoyed and I totally get that because the experience of or the consequences of drug policy or drug treatment or drug in terms of the legal side of it so all of those things impact on people in different ways and they bring up different responses and I think that's why you know during COVID I was getting really angry because there were groups of people who I would feel very close to who who were disproportionately impacted because they are excluded and they were becoming more excluded and I got really angry about that but when I went two things have happened that have have started to

make me feel feel more positive and one of those is the citizens assembly and the other thing is is because I have come out of COVID and I am interacting with other people from who are not like me and who are from different disciplines or whatever and I'm going actually there's really there's actually loads of really nice people and and I haven't seen that for a while so I have I have become much more I have become much more positive I'm you know I don't want to burn everything to the ground now there are things I think to be burned to the ground and should be started again but I like before it was kind of literally like, you know, all of it, get rid of all of it. But no, I can see the space now and I feel more tolerant about listening to other people's different views and things. So overall, I'm still going to be moany, right?

I'm not making any massive promises on that end. I think it's just part of my nature to be a little bit of a dose. But I care. Like, I'm my nature to be a little bit of a dose but um I care like I I'm going to tell you a sad story and then we have to say something happy because this is really sad so but I want to to give you an idea of the kinds of things that that that make me angry so maybe six weeks ago I was in Dublin and I was at a thing and i wanted to get the train home at 8 30 yeah and the last train to cork is 9 30 and i arrived at the train station at 8 31 so i'd missed the train and i thought flipping hell right so i was standing at the door and

i could see that there was a number of people who were experiencing homelessness outside the door and I was just standing there and I was watching and there was a young man and and he was with two older people and and it did feel like they were bullying him a little bit and I was kind of standing there and going how am I gonna you know manage this because I can't put myself in in danger and I don't know what's going on and you know how do I manage it but anyway they went away and he was there and he was very young he was you know possibly in his early 20s and uh I could see him walking over to people and I could see them turn their backs and I think that people have become desensitized to street homelessness because they're

seeing it a lot I thought this is really bad how can they turn their backs you know and I thought he's going to come over to me and he's going to ask me for money and I'm going to give it to him and he'll eventually make his way over and he came over to me and he said can I can I use your phone it's for a free phone number and I said oh do you need to ring what I call the bed line so that's where you ring this free phone number to get a bed for the night and he said oh no I've I've already rang the one in Dublin but you see in Ireland we have a centre of interest policy so in order to access homeless services you have to be from that place so if god forbid blind boy if you were homeless in Dublin tomorrow you're not allowed to access the services because you're

from Limerick so you need to go back to where you came from. So he told me where he was from and I'm not going to disclose that. And I said, OK, let's ring them. But his next difficulty was how he was going to get to that county because he's barred from the train station. And I said, look, let's ring them and see what we can do. So I Googled their free phone number and I was ringing them and I couldn't get through. And then the time was ticking by. And I had to get the 9.30 train because it is the last train of the night.

Right. So I said to him, I don't want you to think that I don't care and that I'm just abandoning you here. But I have to get the half nine train. There isn't another one. I'm going to go and get you some money um you know for a hostel for tonight and I want to you know give you some details with some people you can ring tomorrow so I went in and I got some money and I came out and I gave it to him and he started to cry and he said I feel really bad and I said don't feel bad

and he said no he said I feel really bad because I know I will spend the money on drugs. Yeah. And I said, are you, are you, I said, you know, are you, are you able to not use? So if you stop using, does it cause, you know, physical and psychological pain? And he said, I can't, I'm addicted. And I said, okay. And I said, I understand that. So I said, actually, I said, I'm giving you the money. And I said, what you choose to do with that, I said, is I said, actually, I said, I'm giving you the money.

And I said, what you choose to do with that, I said, is your your business. And I'm giving you the money. And I said, if you go to a hostel, great. If you don't, you know, that's your choice. I didn't ask you what you were spending it on. I'm not going to judge you. All I'm going to ask is for that you stay safe. You know, you stay really safe. And I asked him to go to a particular place as well.

And he started crying again. And he said, you're the only person who's been kind to me in weeks. And he kept stepping back from me as well. And I thought, why does he keep stepping back? Am I like invading his personal space or what am I? I was trying to think, what am I doing wrong here? You know? And I said, why do you keep stepping back?

And he said, because I smell. smell and i said you don't actually so you don't smell at all and then he said can i have a hug and i said of course you can and she was stood there crying and this isn't about oh sharon aren't you fucking great talking to yeah yeah because you know people put that stuff on insta i want to know about this is who we have this is who we have these are our people right but what you've done there is you you've humanized but wait till i tell you so you've humanized someone that people turned their backs to because yeah they turned their backs and and we hugged with two of us stood there and we were hugging and we were crying because i just wanted to bring him home and he was a beautiful young man and um i looked up at the time i said oh shit i have to go I'm really sorry I never said you know I'm from a universe I never said where I was from or anything never mentioned

anything and I I opened my purse and I lost my second ticket right and I said fuck's sake I've lost my train ticket and he shoved the money back into my hand and I said Jesus Christ don't give me that that's for you he said but you've no money where what you've no train ticket and I said look I said don't worry about it I said I can get another train ticket and I could see that he was worrying you know and I said look I said I work somewhere that are very understanding and if I explain to them that I've lost my train ticket they won't be cross and you know I won't get in trouble because you know I've lost my train ticket and I said don't worry about it everything's going to be fine and I could see he was still worrying you know that I might be in

trouble so he said what I could do is he said I could run in and if I jump the barrier they'll chase me and then you'll be able to go in through the barrier and they won't see I know and I said that is just the kindest offer I have had in such a long time and I said but I said I you're over worrying about this now and I said um I will not get in trouble if I have to buy another train ticket and he said I'm going to stand here so he said I'm not allowed in so he said I'm going to stand here and watch to make sure that you're safe yeah and I walked up through the barriers, I'm not allowed in. So he said, I'm going to stand here and watch to make sure that you're safe. And I walked up through the barriers and I'm going to get upset again. But anyway, I walked up through the barriers and I turned around and I look back and I could see him standing there and he was waving and he was crying and the tears were coming down his face.

And he had nowhere to sleep and his feet were bleeding because the shoes he was wearing were too small for him. His pants was falling down because the elastic was gone. And he was going to give me back the money that I had given him, even though he had nothing. He didn't even have a phone. And then he stood there to watch to make sure that I was going to be safe. And I don't know if he was safe that night because I don't know where he slept. Yeah. And I want people to know that when i'm angry about these things it's because that's why he's not any different than me he's not any different than me and uh and i i i just find that really difficult to to witness and i understand that people are getting tired of i've seen street homelessness it looks really chaotic you know people are angry tired of seeing street homelessness. It looks really chaotic. You know, people are angry and shouting and howling at the moon and doing all sorts of crazy things because they're really unwell.

But behind every one of those people is a beautiful young man like him. And I'm upset now about that experience, but it's not the first thing I mean I have experiences like that and I think why he he's he's I meet people like him all of the time beautiful human beings incredibly kind incredibly generous you know despite the fact that they have nothing they will do something for you and and I I hope that people will know, try not to get burnt out by homelessness because it could potentially get worse now in the next few months. Especially with the eviction ban. So that when you see people on the street, you don't have to stop and help everybody. But you know, every one of those people is a human being who is just like us.

who is just like us. But for me, I think the reason why I am so excited about the Citizens' Assembly on Drugs is because I witnessed 99 citizens in a room who are giving a huge amount of their time, huge amount of their personal time. They were engaged. They they were insightful they were careful they were you know just amazing to watch and you know some of them did ask questions where I would have had a different perspective but I could see that they were being deliberate in their question and and really thinking and I think

it's the first time for quite a while that I felt this is just such an amazing experience and it's a truly democratic experience and it absolutely has the potential to change policy and and i feel really really hopeful i feel really really hopeful i'm i will have periods of frustration because it will go slowly or i will hear people who will say things that i won't agree with but overall i i have never felt so positive about this space as i did i could not sleep saturday night i was so excited and it's I was so excited. And it's been an awful. I'm old. It's been an awful lot of times since I've been excited about anything. That's fucking that's fantastic.

Sharon. Actually, thank you so much for coming on, Sharon. Thank you for having me. Thank you to Sharon Lambert for that wonderful chat. I'll catch you all next week. God bless. rock city you're the best fans in the league bar none tickets are on sale now for fan appreciation night on saturday april 13th when the toronto rock hosts the rochester nighthawks at first ontario center in hamilton at 7 30 p.m You can also lock in your playoff pack right now to guarantee the same seats for every postseason game.

And you'll only pay as we play. Come along for the ride and punch your ticket to Rock City at torontorock.com. Thank you.