The Blindboy Podcast - Sports psychology with Keith Earls and Dr Declan Aherne

Episode Date: April 26, 2022

I chat with Munster and Ireland Rugby player, and psychologist Dr.Declan Aherne about managing mental health within Sports. The similarities between art and sport, We also speak about the human condition in general Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Tug at the Candlemaker's lanyard, you wayward tanyas. Welcome to the Blind Boy Podcast. I have a unique podcast this week. Well, very unique for me because I'm speaking to a sports player by the name of Keith Earls who's an incredibly successful rugby player who plays for Munster, Ireland, the British and Irish Lions.

This is someone who is a legend within their profession. But it's outside my comfort zone because, as you know from listening to this podcast, I really, really know fucking nothing about sports. Like, I know so little about sports like I know so little about sports I know minus information like I not only know fuck all but I get things wrong so that's why I don't really speak to people who are involved in sports on this podcast it's why I haven't really done it up until this point because I'm scared that I'll say something so clueless that it'll be like embarrassing. So how did I end up with Keith Earls on this podcast? Well I did a gig in University of Limerick a couple of weeks ago in the concert hall and it was put together by

UL Student Life which is like the University of Limerick Student Union and they suggested to me why don't you speak to Keith Arles and I said no I'd be terrified I don't know anything about rugby I know that he's a legend but I don't think I'll be able to give give him the respect that he deserves for all he's accomplished because I don't really understand it and then they said to me well Keith is a rugby player but he's also been very open about his struggles with mental health issues. And so are you, blind boy. So maybe both of you together can speak about that.

And I was like, okay, that sounds like something I could do. But I was still a small bit nervous. So what I suggested was, which looking back now is absolutely ridiculous. But what I suggested was, which looking back now is absolutely ridiculous, but what I suggested was, I said, why don't, why don't me and Keith speak, but also there's like a psychologist present, or a sports psychologist present, so that the sports psychologist can act as a translator so if the subject of rugby comes up and i don't really have information at hand i can deflect it to the sports psychologist

and they will help me understand rugby through the language of psychology which i do understand so the university said yeah we can get youclan Ahern, who is a veteran psychologist, psychotherapist, has been a psychotherapist for over 30 years, and he's also a sports psychologist who has worked with Munster rugby players, including Keith. So then I said, yes, okay, fuck it, let's do it, let's do it. And you know what? I'm really fucking glad I did because we had the most wonderful, beautiful conversation and all my fears about interviewing a sports personality

while not knowing about sports, it didn't matter because we're humans. We spoke about humanity and it didn't matter that Keith Earls is a rugby player and that I'm an artist. it didn't matter that Keith Earls is a rugby player and that I'm an artist. It didn't matter because we're both people who care deeply about our respective professions. Both of our professions are in the public eye. Both of us are expected to perform and we found all these beautiful commonalities between art and sports.

And it then left me with this newfound respect and understanding for sports. Like for instance, Keith was describing, like in the position that he plays in rugby, he doesn't just like play alone. He needs to have a relationship with another player in a different position and both of them work with each other and I didn't have a clue about that but what it reminded me of was the relationship that a bass player has to have with a drummer. The bass player needs to listen to the drummer more than any other member of the band because the drummer keeps the beat and the bass player obeys that bass drum and if the bass player listens too much to either the band because the drummer keeps the beat and the bass player obeys that

bass drum and if the bass player listens too much to either the singer or the guitar player then he'll fuck it up and thinking about it that way made me understand rugby a little bit so i'm really looking forward to showing you this conversation one other thing i want to flag so because i have key thirls in this podcast going to get, there'll be a bunch of you listening today who don't normally listen to my podcast at all. And you're here to listen to me chat to Keith Earls. And that's absolutely fine. You're so welcome.

You're incredibly welcome here. But one thing I do want to make clear to you, I don't really do like standard interviews when I bring someone on to this podcast. I don't like the interview format where I simply bring someone on to this podcast I don't like the interview format where I simply bring someone on and ask them questions what I try and do is have a conversation I try and have a conversation that doesn't necessarily have a direction so if you're new to this podcast you could be listening to this and you'd be getting frustrated and you'd be

thinking why is the interviewer talking so much why is blind boy talking so much why doesn't he shut the fuck up and just ask key questions that's not what I do I want something that is different and a space where I can be genuinely curious with another human being

so what you have here instead is a conversation between an artist and a rugby player and us finding commonality in the simple suffering of being human beings. And I was so glad to do it because Keith Earls is an absolute fucking gentleman. And I shouldn't have been nervous at all. The fuck was I nervous about? We're both from Limerick City. We're both about the I nervous about? We're both from Limerick City. We're both about the same age.

We're both performers from Limerick City who've made names for ourselves outside Limerick City in our chosen fields. Why would we not get together and have a wonderful conversation? And not only that, we had such a lovely time that I'm going to ask Keith to go for a coffee when the weather is nice in Limerick. So I thoroughly enjoyed this.

I loved this conversation and I loved the experience of stepping outside my comfort zone. And for my listeners who might have no interest whatsoever in rugby or sports, don't worry because this is a conversation about being human. And for those wondering Jesus blind boy, you're from

Limerick and you know fucking nothing about rugby and Limerick is the rugby city you know nothing about sports what's that about? well what I always say to this is I just don't, I don't have the gift of appreciating sports it's not that I don't like sports I've tried all my life to enjoy it

that wonderful communal feeling of competitive competitiveness and whatever it is the crowd get from being a part of a sports event I just don't have it I don't have that gift and I'd love to have that gift because I see people enjoying sports as much as they do and I feel a little bit jealous feel a bit left out it's like fuck it I'd love to care about sports as much as they do and I feel a little bit jealous feel a bit left out, it's like fuck it I'd love to care about something as much as those people care about that rugby match on the television or that soccer match

on the TV and if you're interested in sports psychology there's quite a lot of interesting stuff here especially from Declan O'Hearn and I was fascinated with sports psychology and I could relate so much of it to my own job and I'm not even in fucking sports

Declan as a psychologist is quite humanistic, his background is in gestalt psychology and Declan as well, like quite a lot of psychologists is very critical of psychiatry and the diagnosis model of psychiatry so Declan expresses quite a bit of that

in here and I just want to point out one error that I make in this podcast I mention a psychiatrist that I had on this podcast before called Dr. Pat Bracken and I said that Pat worked in the Congo he didn't work in the Congo he worked in Uganda so I got that little bit wrong but if you hear that bit in the podcast where I speak about my interview with Dr. Pat Bracken about psychiatry, because Pat Bracken is a psychiatrist who's critical of psychiatry as well, just go back and listen to my podcast from 2018 called Dr. Pat Bracken. Also, Keith Earles released his autobiography this year called Fight or Flight, his autobiography this year called Fight or Flight which is about

his life, his life as a rugby player but also about his mental health struggles. So here's the chat that I had in University of Limerick with Munster and international rugby player Keith Earls and sports psychologist Dr Declan Ahern.

What is sports psychology? In one sentence? Pull the mic towards you there. Is that working? Is that all right? Do you want a one-sentence answer or an hour? We're here for fucking ages, man, so you can, whatever way you want.

I mean... So there's nothing particularly unique about sports psychology within the field of psychology. Yeah. It's applying basic principles that we apply in lots of other realms like clinical psychology the same types of things but applying it in a sports setting and to be fair you know sports psychologists are a luxury maybe for for most people that you know it's not something that everybody can indulge in

but you can do an awful lot of it yourself. Because psychology is a part of every athlete, regardless of whether they have a sports psychologist or not. Psychology comes into every single performance, as well as your kind of performance in this arena. It's the same principles apply. One thing I was wondering about sports psychology is, so here's this type of psychology that's applied to one job being a professional athlete but then I'm thinking of all the other jobs like working

in retail like that's very very stressful you know if you're working in Dunn's or something and there's people there all the time talking to you why isn't there like a retail psychologist or even but it's true lots of jobs are like sports is stressful in one specific way but then retail is stressful in this other specific way but even my own job like so i i'm a professional artist i perform i studied psychology years ago and so much of psychology that i studied i bring to what i do like, the toughest part of my job is being afraid of failing. If I'm afraid of failure, then I won't try. I'll procrastinate. I'll procrastinate very, very heavily.

So every day I have to overcome the fear of failing. And how I've learned to overcome, I won't say overcome, how I've learned to battle the fear of failure is I'm only afraid of failing if my self-esteem and identity is attached to being a good artist. So like that short story I read there, you know, I'm currently writing a new book. The toughest part about writing for me is the fear of, oh, fuck, what if it's shit? What if today I don't perform? What if today I sit down at the page and what I write is terrible?

And my mind will start saying things to me like, oh, it was just a fluke. Anything you've done in the past that was good, it's just a fucking fluke. You've really found out now you're a piece of shit you're fucking useless and these are the type of terrible thoughts that would go through me so that's exactly what happens in sport

that's what I'm guessing the exact same thing, Keith I'm sure would agree that's what will go through the mind of a player before they go out in a match as well am I going to make a bollocks of this your identity Keith, your identity and your self esteem so as a professional rugby player like

there's Keith Earls who's on TV, who's on the pitch, who has all these expectations and then there's just Keith the human being and how do you separate those two things and how did that go for you I struggled with it at the start

like I think I only found my identity in the last couple of years Yeah, I struggled with it at the start. Like, I think I only found my identity in the last couple of years. You know, especially coming from Limerick, coming from Munster, you're surrounded by your people. It's not like playing in any other club. It means so much more to us. And, you know, I was a 24, like I was 24-7, like a Munster rugby player. And and I was like you said there who who the fuck is Keith Earls yeah so I took away and go on that journey and figure out what I wanted I was around a lot of big personalities um when I came into the monster

scene that just thought completely different to me and I felt like I had to act like them and I felt like I had to do things they'd done and I hid away myself and then I forgot who I was and then I'm stuck in limbo land and I was like Who am I? And when you said there You've only started to discover who you are now, right? What what was the beginning of that journey where even to say that is fucking massive, even to be able to say to yourself, fuck it I have an idea who I am, you know, and it's a lovely feeling. What started you on that journey, that particular journey? Yeah like the biggest thing in 2013 I was going through all

these mad, mad behaviors and like my partner at the time would see it, my father would see it, my mother would see it. What's a mad behaviour? Like, crazy thinking, like going off, like, I could do random, I remember I arrived on, when I first became a professional rugby player, I arrived on up to

my father's house in a Range Rover. I was like, look at this dad in this class, and he goes, you know what you can do with that no you can fucking return it like I'd real dislike impulsive fucking decisions so no no like I'm like I like I'd know like I think it's something I didn't I do it straight away and then I'm like oh my god what am I after doing yeah no like of I've gotten a lot a lot better at it. And I went and I spoke to a psychologist. I spoke to...

Like, I was reading it. Like, you know, I was always reading ups and... Why am I so mad? Why do people think I'm a weirdo? And then I went and I spoke to a team. He was in the coaching staff. I knew he had mental health issues. I went and I spoke to him.

And I asked him, what should I do? I went down, didn't went and I spoke to him and I asked him what should I do. I went down and I spoke to a professional and he told me what was going on and he put, I know Declan will probably speak about it more, he put a bipolar label on it which made sense. I was a bit relieved but I didn't understand. I just accepted it and I knew I had something but I didn't understand. I just accepted it and I knew I had something but I didn't know why. Is bipolar the one where you can go through periods of being

very excited and impulsive and then followed by a deep depression and it goes in those cycles? Yeah, yeah. A lot of mine, the manic's weren't, it wasn't manic it was bipolar too. If Dick wants to speak more, it was kind of like those times I just feel numb, like no feeling. And then, yeah, you said just feeling low as well, like, you know, and, you know, I just didn't know how to deal with it. Like, you know, just a vicious circle and, you know, catastrophic thinking. And if you're feeling numb, Keith, would doing something like buying a Range Rover,

would that be a way to try and feel? Yeah, I'd try. Yeah, you'd look for something to get you. I remember I was in St. Thomas sitting down having sushi one day and I felt numb. And we were going on tour to Argentina like two days later and I was like, I don't want to feel like this in Argentina. I'm going to go on the piss and have the crack. Yeah. But I woke two days later, and I was like, I don't want to feel like this in Argentina. I'm going to go on the piss and have the crack. Yeah.

But I woke up the next morning and I was like a million times worse, and I pulled out of the tour. Are you fucking serious, man? Yeah, yeah, because I'd come off, like I'd been given medication for the bipolar. Oh, fuck. I was delighted I got diagnosed, and then I took the medication. I was like right

I'm gonna get better here and then like as I started doing all my research. I was like this fucking medication I don't want to be honest. I went off it cold turkey All the numbness and everything started coming in then I started going drinking trying for trying to find yeah happiness true I said buying a fucking Range Rover points doing something mad like you know Cuz drink is a terrible fucker for that, because the thing with drink, drink can bring you close to, it like replicates emotions.

Do you know what I mean? And what's your relationship with substances in general? Did you ever find yourself on top of it, drifting into addiction territory? Addiction, for me as well, doesn't have to mean your life is fucked from drink but for me addiction even if you have a drink because you're trying to solve an internal feeling that for me is enough to end it like in my own life like i i love having a couple of cans

right but if the reason for me having a couple of cans is i feel shit today so cans will make me feel better, I tend to not go near the cans. Then I investigate, hold on a second, what's going on for me here? And once I go there, I don't want the cans anymore. The only time I enjoy cans is as a reward. Yeah, I agree with you, yeah, and that's where I got to. And look, thankfully, no, I didn't.

I probably got addicted to finding out how to make myself better. Fair fucking way, yeah. And that's the way my addiction went I went on this mad journey of finding like you know natural like my diet like a great work I fucking love bread work you meditating I meditate I do breast work like Wim Hof yeah yeah yeah and you go into the cold as well do you yeah I call showers yeah um but you know I say you have to like being you know it's all right doing it for a week like you're being consistent is a thing I'm doing I'm doing work with um Ron O'Brien he's he's here he's uh uh breed waves some some of the buzzes you can get from breathing like the consciousness is is is insane like you know and

i suppose i said that was my addiction was how to beat bipolar naturally because i didn't like medication and and that meant going around asking for help anyone in every sort of field that was was the healthy way of doing it you know and declclan right so Keith spoke there about um diagnosis like so like even myself recently I've received an autism diagnosis and that's real difficult for me at this stage in my 30s to all of a sudden I've been given a new word to describe something I knew my entire life but at the same time it's difficult my identity It's like here's a label now your your your autistic or your bipolar It's a tough one What are your opinions now as a professional as a clinical professional around diagnosis?

Well, I'm professional I'm just my professionalism on the line but by saying that a lot of it is a load of shite, like I say. A lot of... You know, a lot of those labels... And some diagnoses are useful. Yeah. So the diagnosis of autism, which I'm very familiar with, and, you know, it's very common,

is, as I was speaking to you earlier about, is just a neural diversity it's just a different wiring system yeah and if you can imagine if everybody in in this building was autistic it would be the norm and we wouldn't have bright lights and we wouldn't have loud noise yeah we'd survive it would be fine we'd create a society that would be suited to that so that's a very different diagnosis than talking about a diagnosis like bipolar which is a psychiatric label that's used. Autism is a... That's not psychiatric no? It's more neurodevelopmental problem is what we'd call it. You know, the psychiatric labels are the ones I have

difficulty with and I've shared this with Keith which is that they really don't serve an awful useful purpose and for all of those people who read Keith's autobiography, he gives a perfect example, if you read the book, of why he might feel the way he feels without ever having to put a label on it. So what we're talking about there is like a trauma-informed model. So could you speak about that so, Keith,

if you're speaking about like, you can look at points in your life where you might have witnessed trauma or trauma was a part of growing up and this is part of your story yeah it's quite similar to yourself like in my household I would have grew up with an unbelievably paranoid father but he was paranoid because of where where I was growing up where I was living my Ross when I got to a certain age like the crime was crazy and like a a lot of things. There's a story in my book, it was a beautiful summer's day. Myself and my cousin, we had my pool table out in the back garden, like just plain pool

and we heard a shot. We ran out to the porch and we were looking and we were just seeing a fella standing with a balaclava on and he's standing there and there's a group of lads and they're running and we're like oh my god what the fuck and that was the fear like what happens if we were playing soccer where we usually play soccer but then the following morning my father went out to start his van he was parked and he just started a new job he started his own business as a floor fitter and he went off to head off to work and the van wouldn't start and he'd started a new job. He started his own business as a floor fitter. And he went off to head off to work

and the van wouldn't start and he lift up the bonnet and there was a light coming through, a bullet had hit his van and the car wouldn't start. That fucked his day for going to start his day. So was your dad saying, don't go out and play soccer in the field because there's a risk of getting shot? Yeah, my father is often,

I used to hang around my like i don't my wife since i was 12 so i used to go up to woodview sounds like you've had a wife since you were 12 yeah yeah but like i lived my ross here and then there was nesting's tom in college no school yeah then woodview was here so i'd often be up in woodview with edle and my father'd pull up in the in the car and he'd make me change my clothes because he would have seen one of the one of the gang members in the same hoodie as me or someone with a hoodie he used to say I used to wear a baseball cap um I used to be like if he see me wearing it he'd go mad like he he was complete and it was understandable like you know we, I grew up with fellas who've been murdered, and it's like, you know,

and that just got me into that thinking, all constantly negative thinking, and like he was going around blessing himself a hundred times, and if he banged his elbow, he'd have to bang his other elbow, so I couldn't, there was a stage there, I couldn't go to bed without turning the TV on to number three, because I think something bad was going to happen to me. But someone call that OCD but you're going sure I learned that from my dad yeah exactly and that's why I know I've wrote in the book that you know being diagnosed with

bipolar I'm not convinced yet yeah I'm not convinced yet and like Declan says because the journey I've been on the addiction I I've been on to try and get better, you know, there's times, like, I know, like, when I do, obviously, rugby, the ups and downs, that's the only reason I'm staying on the medication at the moment. But when I come off it, when I retire, I'm going to come off it because I know, I've figured out now what my triggers are.

it because I know I figured out know that what my what my triggers are and I figured out I know when when I start eating shit food you know when I start going for certain things I'm like okay things you this is the earliest little signal yeah yeah exactly you need to pull back or I might just ring someone I said man what do you think it is or like you know I'd ask for advices does this sound normal to you you know so it's my biggest thing is I'm not I'm not scared to to ask someone if they think I'm mad or I'd make a phone call before making a decision so you will have a thought will come into your head that you'll think this is irrational and this is a this is a trigger that I'm going down this certain path

yeah so you might ring someone up and say, does this sound mad to you? And if they say, yeah, it does, Keith, then you go, right, okay, I need to have a bit of self-awareness around this. And that's what I've found. That's my way of, as Declan says, whatever you have is find a way to live with it

and ask for help. And it's weird. My wife can see it in my eyes now. I look at her and she was like, she can see when you're, okay. Yeah, yeah, like in the book, if you read my book, like my parents came up with a nickname, like I've another ego, Hank. So growing up, like, you know what I mean,

myself and Irene. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I remember watching that years ago and then my parents would see all my behavior and I'd do something like when I was younger, like fucking,'t know I'd be acting the Megan at home or I'd be chanting to my parents and they're like I'd be chanting to Hank or Keith yeah that was a that was that was a funny they thought it was a joke but then they were like stuck in my head like there is two people in her maybe like you know um yeah so but the interesting thing is is that like psychiatrically

your diagnosis would say that like the things that you're doing like the wim hof method um i'm guessing you do a bit of mindfulness as well do you yeah it would say that that doesn't work but you're actually going hold on a second this actually does work for me yeah and i went on that journey blind by where i know i've seen people might give up. I give up on it. I know about it a while, but I give up after a week. I give up after a month. And I just sat down one day and I'm like, right, I'm going to give this six months.

Because if you're going to the gym, you're not going to get fucking muscles in a week. You know, it's going to... Exactly. I was never convinced. I used to be saying, you're all liars. Yeah. Like, you're all liars.

I'm not going to get better here. Like, you're all liars. Like, you're all liars. I'm not going to get better here. Like, you're all a pack of liars. And then I remember one day, like, my nutrition was great. Like, all my mindfulness, my visualization, my rugby. And I know it sounds like a lot. But I remember one day I was just like, I haven't had anxiety. I haven't had crazy feelings in a long time so, and that took like I used to do journaling, I used to run with Paul O'Connell and he'd tell you every

night before bed, every morning I'd wake up and I'd be writing stuff like you know, I will be the best rugby player, I will be this and I'd write a gratitude list of like Was that helpful? Oh look, very helpful, my self-talk. I was burnt out from talking to myself. That's the fucking thing, because when you have that depression and anxiety it's all this voices inside non-stop this negative and then when you fucking open up, when you write it down, it's out of your body and it's there on a page and especially if the thought that you're thinking is

mad, once you see it there you go that's fucking mad if the thought that you're thinking is mad, once you see it there, you go, that's fucking mad. Yeah, yeah. Fuck is that? I've been entertaining that for a while. It's like the phone call, you know, like, you know, I ring it, like, someone I trust. It's just like hearing it from someone else,

you're like, yeah, that is mad. But it's like your mind is going to believe you no matter what you're saying. So, you know what I mean? I spent a long time, first thing getting up in the morning, I was like, today is going to believe you no matter what you're saying so yeah I mean I spent a lot long time first thing getting up in the morning I was like today is going to be a great day do you get up in the morning and you make a little choice of today is going to be good yeah I'm sure you have everyone has this decision yeah you have a decision you're either you know you're gonna

like say that you're gonna wake up with a negative talk or you're going to be a positive. And, you know, you have a decision. Someone can call me a dope, or I have a decision to get angry or I can just say, that's their opinion. Because that's interesting because one thing I struggled with a lot over the pandemic is,

I wake up in the morning and sometimes my first feeling will be dread. Like I open my eyes and I'm overwhelmed with a feeling of everything's awful, everything's terrible. And if I entertain that, there's no evidence for that feeling. It's just all it is is an emotion.

If I start, the first thing my brain will do then is I've just felt immediate dread now that I've woken up let's think of all the reasons why it's true and I'm searching around for them and how I always stop that every morning when it does happen

compassion for my two cats so I get up out of bed I have two cats out the back garden they're stray but they're not they're called Silk and Thomas and Nappertandy and one of them is deaf. And a brother and sister, and one of them is deaf. And his eyesight isn't great either. But they're good cats. And I wake up, and I'd be feeding these negative emotions. And now all of a

sudden, I've got these two gorgeous little cats and I have to feed them and their needs and their happiness depend on my ability like they can't eat if I don't feed them and that one little act of compassion because the thing is with mental health issues it can be very fucking selfish you're thinking about yourself it's you can because you're you're threat you're at such a high state of threat your empathy isn't great. You're not thinking about other people. And animals, I always find, are a great one for that with me. Even rubbing their little heads,

seeing how happy they are to get their food, that brings me down now to the point where that dread that's up there, I'm now thinking rationally. Because that's when we were speaking there about the journaling. When your mind has got negative self-talk all day you're also you're not using all your brain you're only using that part that's thinking of threat and when you do that you can't think critically about your emotions but the journal and seeing the words they're writing it down you kind of calm down a bit and

you can you can intellectually see, oh, this is fucking ridiculous. What am I thinking this for? You know? Have you anything to say about what me and Keith were chatting about there? Absolutely. I could speak forever about what you're saying.

I'm sitting back there just being inspired by what you're talking about. And what really encourages me is that the two of you are talking about mental health issues in really constructive useful ways all right rather than us getting hung up on labels and diagnosis you're talking about the real life issues that we have to deal with for two men to be here talking about these things like 20 30 years

ago that was not permitted you know so I'm really encouraged by the way in which you're doing that and that all the things you're talking about I can tell you as a psychologist are dead on so don't worry you know wondering am I doing the right thing I mean and I'll have to put my hand up and say yeah I'm a Wim Hof as well and I'm doing my mindfulness because they're the most important life skills you can learn um you know and things I know you're big you like CBT work and you're talking about the kind of cognitive stuff that's very very useful as well but the only label the only of cognitive stuff, that's very, very useful as well. But the only label, the only diagnosis that we all have to live with is that we're human. That's the only one that I'd be really interested in.

And dealing with what you lads are talking about now is being human and dealing with human issues. And we all have to struggle with that. There's no magic formula to fix that. And there certainly is no pill that's going to start it out for you. And one thing I'd like to ask you too, so when diagnosis has happened, like something like bipolar, right,

I think of the DSM is used, the Diagnostics and Statistics Manual, and I'm assuming this is something you're quite critical of, and it's something that, like I'm not in a position to be critical about it because I'm not an expert, but we are talking about a fucking checklist. That's ridiculous.

And the human personality, individuals are too complex sometimes to fit this checklist of six points. Look, it's... I'm trying to use nice words now, right? But DSM is a diagnostic and statistical manual for psychiatric diagnosis. The first one was brought out about 70 years ago,

with, I think think maybe 80 or 90 disorders it's now up around 350 they've discovered up until the 70s like being gay was in this was considered a mental illness that was being diagnosed like you know it's it's it's antiquated it's it's not relevant it doesn't apply like the stuff you're talking about is what's relevant unfortunately and i say this with the highest respect for so many of my medical colleagues, but psychiatry needs to come of age and realise that this DSM is a load of rubbish.

It doesn't help anybody. And all it does is promote this diagnostic model that is driven by a medical and dare I say it, pharmaceutical business. That's the only basis behind it because there's nothing else that they have to offer. And that's a controversial one to do. It's a controversial

position to take to be Well I know I've got my ass kicked over at many a time. Of course yeah. But I put my hand up and I say if I don't say it who's going to say it? Because there's not many people you know I'm over the hill now I don't have to worry anymore about somebody sacking me from a job or anything but you know there's a real life issue here about how we deal with mental

health problems and we've got to move on from from labels diagnosis and in particular dependency on the pharmaceutical industry are you familiar with a fellow called dr pat bracken i am indeed yeah so pat bracken is someone i've had on this podcast, right? Yeah, good guy. He's a psychiatrist, and he was also the head of the Irish Psychiatry Society, but he's very critical of psychiatry. And some of the fucking things Pat was telling me was fascinating. He's dead on. He's dead on, yeah.

One of the things that changed Pat's mind about psychiatry was he was sent, he went to Africa right to to help child soldiers who were in the Congo I believe and these are kids of about 13 who at the age of maybe six or seven were given guns and had to kill people deeply deeplyized children. And Pat was sent over as a Western psychiatrist with a team of psychiatrists to help them. And what Pat found was Western psychology just didn't fucking work because these kids come from a completely different culture that isn't rooted in Western ideas. So no amount of his techniques as a psychiatrist could help these traumatized kids. But what did work was when these kids engaged in rituals that were specific to their

culture. So whatever rituals, dances, things that had value within their culture, when they engaged in this, then they started to see healing and started to see them not being defined by their trauma. And that's what made Pat skeptical of, hold on a second, this psychiatry shit, what's going on here? And another fascinating thing that Pat Bracken told me, he said that something like schizophrenia, right? So with schizophrenia, it's where you can hear voices

and you hear voices in your head. And Pat said that in cultures such as our culture, where we say that this is a bad thing, to hear voices is a terrible thing and this is an illness. In those cultures, the people who hear the voices, the voices tend to attack them. They tend to be terrifying voices that they need to escape. But there are cultures where hearing voices is considered a gift. So this is a gift from God and a person who hears voices is a special person in this community. And the people who hear those voices tend to hear voices

that aren't threatening. And they still hear voices, but they live lives with meaning. Do you know what I mean? It's the rules of society that define whether it's bad or not. And I always found that absolutely fucking fascinating. And they've tried to develop in Western culture, there's now groups set up throughout the UK and in Ireland hearing voices.

Hearing voices. To go, I am a person who hears voices, I'm not medically... Take the fear out of it. Yeah. We're going to have a small little break from the interview now for the ocarina pause this is where if you're a new listener to this podcast i play a little ocarina which is a type of south american whistle and i do this because an advert is going to play i don't know

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Either monetarily or simply by sharing it on your social media or leaving a comment or a like or a review now back to the interview where we speak about the experience of flow in sports and in art i'm gonna ask something now sportsy because this is an interesting one because i, because I'd never heard of this, but someone asked, can you speak about the dreaded yips? Now, yips to me means, it's just a limerick-specific word for ecstasy. But it says, yips.

I recall reading that this sudden inability to perform previously well-practiced skills can be very complex on the psychological level and treatment typically involves clinical sports psychology therapy so i'd never heard of that but i know that as writers block i'm a professional writer this is what i do i've have fucking two bestsellers i've proven to myself i can do this but i can get myself into a fucking situation where i can't write, I can't perform, and I'm telling myself that I'm useless, despite all external evidence. That's creative block. This sounds like sports block. Have you ever experienced that?

Yeah, I did, and it nearly ruined my life because rugby meant so much to me, and, you know... What's that like? What was that like? I felt degraded like it was just shit like at training all week I'd be incredible at hunting the lads doing mad stuff at training and then you go out in the game

and then you're said they're catastrophic thinking they're like there's times there like in World Cups that all I do is catch a ball and score a try and it fucking hit off my finger and sometimes what I've learnt in life

is acceptance is massive for me I've accepted that I'm going to have I'm going to play a shit game I'm going to have a shit week but I'm going to have a shit week. But my biggest thing is my preparation. I can accept if I prepare for a game

and I tick all the boxes and I can look myself in the mirror after a game, but I've had a shit game, I can deal with that. I know the yips is kind of more around kind of maybe golf and you know tennis or something but the yips to me is that negative thinking and a lack of confidence and you know no self-esteem and not being able to handle

pressure like you know a basic catching the ball which you could do with one hand which are always closed in earlier training and you can't do it in front in front of a crow, but my big philosophy in life at the moment has been accept that shit can hit the fan. You accept that you have to suffer to get somewhere good. One thing I'd love to ask you as well, Keith, is do you ever experience a thing called flow when you're performing as a sports person? It's like, so for me as an artist, right,

flow is essential to my job. So if I'm sitting down to write a story, it feels as if, so I'm in this intense feeling of concentration with utter bliss it's the greatest feeling in the world wonderful concentration I'm kind of not thinking I'm like a pure beam of energy and if I'm writing it doesn't feel like I'm coming up with ideas it's as if I'm sitting in a cinema and a film is made just for me and something's being revealed to me and that for me is flow and if i can fucking do that i'm at the top of my game do you experience that as a sports player yeah yeah i do and but i i can't tell you how i feel or i can't it just um there's times in games where i've i just can't

explain how i've done i've done that and so you've looked back at yourself going who the fuck is this yeah i was like how how did that happen yeah you know it's it's weird and i know it's a state of flow because i know it's the flow but you know that's that's the biggest thing we're all trying to access the state of flow but your state of flow is also accompanied by adrenaline yeah like i'm sitting on my hole with a laptop you're fucking so it must be different there's extra chemicals involved like you know mine is very relaxing yours is yeah adrenaline there so you're when you experience flow you don't know what's happening yeah yeah exactly have you left the pitch though like has your consciousness kind of left or are you focused you like there's the ball i'm getting it yeah there's why excitement excitement to get the ball but then as I said, I don't know how you access it and it's like you there, it's like, oh, was that a fluke of a game? But you're

just going into a different state and trying to access that state every game would obviously be unbelievable. But yeah, I can't describe sometimes i do things i'm like people think oh that's class and i'm like i've no idea how we've done that or best the best way to develop flow is doing the things that both of you practice is mindfulness because flow is about being in the here and now yeah i've studied that with people like sanyo sullivan michael johnson tiger woods they all give descriptions of being in the flow. If you read what they say, they're always going to be saying, I'm in the here and now.

I'm fully present in the moment now. And that's what the flow is. So the more you can practice your ability to do that, the more you don't have any, like you were saying, there's no thinking going on. No. Because you're just in the moment.

So flow is mindfulness. They're coming from the same skill set, basically. So the more more you can learn to be mindful the more you'll be in the flow flow does feel like when i meditate like when i meditate and i really get into that space which is mindful like that and another question i must ask you about your experience of flow on the pitch do you know that the the negative things that come in when your mental health is at you, thinking about, for me it's usually worrying about shit that's happened in the past or worrying about what might happen. And when you're in a bad mental health state, that tends to be how we go about our day and you miss the present moment completely. Like one of the shittest feelings in the world is

I might wake up and I'm either worrying about the future or worrying about the past, and I look at my watch and three hours has passed. Do you know what I mean? And it's like, what a fucking waste of time. And it might as well have felt like 10 minutes. But when you experience flow,

I bet you none of that is there. Yeah, no no you're right because and that's what I'm trying to say with the yips like there would have been a stage in my career we have certain moves

when we're on the pitch and the move might be created to put me into space but I would be thinking you're going to fucking drop this ball you're going to drop this ball don't drop this ball

or it could be now I know literally nothing about rugby so you mean that yeah so we could someone's over there I'm going to push the ball up that way

he's going to be there and then it's going to arrive at Keat yeah exactly they'll hopefully score the try and I'm like I'm thinking negative

I'm thinking about so I'm thinking of the past knock-ons when I dropped the ball I'm thinking about them I was like this has happened to you before you're going

to do it again or I'll be like don't fuck this up now but when I'm the last couple years now we'll like say if a scrum has happened the lads are pushing and I'm on the wing scratching my arse and I might have 30 seconds I'm just literally thinking about my my breathing now you know as hard as it is and it comes with practice I'm just trying to like block out block out everything in the crowd even though you could be getting abused or everything like yeah yeah yeah and you can hear

them like yeah yeah exactly but that's not nice man that's like being on twitter except you're in the middle of a game yeah yeah i remember i was playing an ulster one time one thing freaked me like all abuse in the world you can take but someone I remember roared out in the stand that goes Earl's you've got butter on your fingers and I was like oh my why didn't you just abuse me you know I'm like fucking I looked up I'm gonna drop the ball like my hands are greasy it was weird but yeah I got into a good place where now I'm you'll see it now with rugby teams you know after a try or something break in play, we all come together and we'll take two deep breaths. Because if you're concentrating on your breathing,

and Dec, I don't know, he might agree with me, if you're concentrating on your breathing, you can't think about anything else. And as well as that, when you're breathing like that, you're literally allowing more oxygen into your brain. Your brain is functioning better. When I was first. When I was 19

and a professional first told me, when I first started getting panic attacks when I was 18, 19, I didn't know what they were. I was just like, three times a day, I think I'm dying. Because that's what it was. And I thought I was the only person in the world as well getting it, which was worse. It's like, I can't go to a professional and tell him that I think I'm dying three times a day. They'll think I'm mad. This is just me. And then I went to, I was going to the art college and we had free psychotherapy there. And I went there to a counselor and they said, oh, that's called an anxiety attack.

That's the fire alarm is going off, but there's no fire. And all he did was teach me. He said, when you're in a state of anxiety all the time, your breath is really shallow. So you're breathing from up here. And I noticed I was like all the time. And all he did is he showed me, put your hand on your stomach and as much as possible, when you breathe in through the nose. And he said, feel your stomach expanding

and I'd never done it before in my life and as soon as I started doing that my anxiety was down by about 70% I was giving myself drugs that are free in my body, that's basically it, the medication was there present in my body through breathing and it changed everything for me

It sounds so simple isn't it? But it was wonderful to discover that it was so simple, doesn't it? And it is, but it was wonderful to discover that it was so simple because it made anxiety feel normal because that, like,

if the solution, I won't say solution, but if something that alleviated it greatly was as simple as breathing, then I knew I'm not a freak.

This is part of being a human being. Panic attacks are something everybody gets and it's just a part of being human, but panic attacks are something everybody gets and it's just a part of being human but we don't talk about it because it's terrifying and a little bit embarrassing and that's the only thing so if breathing was the alleviation to it it must be normal well hopefully we're making progress blind boy i mean we we're now running meditation classes

in primary schools out in my primary school every child in the school does meditation. Every year of every class is doing meditation. That's incredible. So from a very young age, they're learning that, oh, I can breathe. And they have their little breathing exercises and they do this like, and they love it. They soak it up because they know it's so natural.

So you missed out, we missed out on that maybe, but hopefully the new generation will catch up. I unfortunately got, what was I doing in school at seven? A nun took me aside and got a jam jar. I was being bold, right? I was seven. I wasn't being bold. I was a child.

I was a child. I shouldn't even say that to myself. I shouldn't even say I was being bold, you know what I mean? Because I was a child. I was doing whatever felt right at that point. And someone called that disruptive. But a fucking, a nun got a jam jar full of water and said to me, that's your soul. I went, all right. And then she went to a fucking pot of dirt, a pot of dirt and threw it in there and said, that's your soul now because you've been bold all morning. And she said, that's not

going to be clean again until you make your first confession in March and then she told me what a confession was and I'm like you want me to get into an upright coffin with a stranger and tell him secrets but I didn't have any I'd say I'd have been better off I got a bit of mindfulness rather than the soul shaming and one little question for you keith right when you're out on the pitch i'm learning about sports now i'm pure curious about sports do you know why i see i'm scared limerick is so rugby mad and i know so little that i'm at the point where i don't want to be in a pub going is that a try? because I'm at that level but I don't want to do it because people think I'm taking the piss

but something I'd love to know is so you're out there and you were describing there when you're not being mindful, okay you're losing the run of yourself your negative thinking is starting to come in, right now that's going to be apparent in your body language

is there someone who has your back there? Is there some type of coach who's watching you and they're like, Keith's head has gone up his arse and they can tell and they help? Yeah, no, we've got each other now on the field, which is something we wouldn't. So your other rugby players, your teammates, would be looking at you and say...

Yeah, so I'd often say with the position I play in the wing I'd be linked with my full back and like midway through the game I'd be like man I'm so not I feel like a bag of shit and again it was like nearly asking for help and he'd chat through it like man

we've done this plenty of times you know it's your ego, or it's, just fucking, chill a bit, like, or he'll say, I've got your back,

don't worry, don't worry about it, you know, and that's, and that's something, where we've got into, like, we're on the field,

killing each other, and we're playing with each other, but, we have these, that's a lot of compassion, and empathy, yeah, we have,

and, the big thing, the big thing for us in rugby now is we're showing vulnerability. Like, you know, a lot of the teams I play on with, it's all about being vulnerable now. Be yourself as fast as you can. And that's how we can all trust each other.

As opposed to pretending. Yeah, yeah. And when the shit hits the fan, and I know about you and I'll come over to you and I'll say, blind boy, you feeling all right? And then you'll go no man I feel like shit and I'm like it's alright man I feel like shit too and we'll get through it together

so there's another person on the pitch and you and that person almost have to have this relationship and that's your linebacker you said it was yes fullback I'm sorry lads but it's all a communication thing. Communication, like rugby,

things can be easier when you communicate. So when you're feeling shit, you communicate. It helps. And the stuff that's on the field, they're starting to relate in different ways. Because what it's reminding me of is because my context again is art but like in a band the bass player and the drummer have to have that

relationship so the bass player is playing bass but if the bass player isn't listening to the drummer and the drummer alone they have to look after each other and if the bass player is listening to the singer the bass player is fucked and if the singer is listening to the bass singer has to be listening to the guitar, because that's the melody.

So that's what I'm fascinated about there. It's the team element of it. Because there's creativity in sports. Like, I just don't understand it. You know what I mean? Hold on a second now. I've got some good questions. Keith, if the money was right, would you play for Leinster?

Not a chance. I'd cut both my legs off. Actually, on that subject, one thing... So the one thing I do know about rugby is Limerick is very unique in that rugby is a working class sport in Limerick. Whereas if you say you like rugby up in Dublin, it's very, very, very posh. And even at Cork, it's kind of posh as well, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. What was that like as a rugby player to be like, I'm not from a posh background playing in places

but it's posh as standard yeah so I used to like underage like Irish schools and I'd go up and I'd play for Irish schools or Munster schools and I'd go up and I'd be like, why are these fellas talking like that? I was just like, I wrote

my book like I had serious imposter syndrome like I was like what is going on here? These people are so different, and I didn't feel worthy because their confidence and stuff, I didn't feel worthy. When I started to make it with Ireland, you're going, you're meeting all these people, and I was like, yeah, imposter syndrome.

It was bizarre, really. I'm still not comfortable in it this is a question for you Declan can you ask Declan what preventative measures does he think athletes should be taking both before and after their careers to protect their mental health

actually that's one both before and after after is what I'm fucking interested in and this could be one for yourself as well we talked about it there myself your identity After is what I'm fucking interested in. And this could be one for yourself as well. We talked about it there. Myself and Keith had talked about it earlier. Your identity.

Like when you're not on the pitch anymore. A lot of that work has to be done well in advance before they retire. And Heath is already invested in his career post-Rugby. And I can remember Declan Kidney being a great advocate of that way back in the day when I was involved with Munster that he really wanted to make sure that all the the players were looking after their lives outside of rugby because there comes a time when you're no longer playing so that the the preparation is throughout your career that you're getting ready so that when you do hang up your boots

that there's more to life than just rugby and that's that's a big transition I mean there's a huge amount of work to needing to be done in helping people trans that transition, you know, in terms of their mental health. Because, and Keith was only explaining to me earlier like that, you know, as people here can imagine, like Keith Earls, you know, he's the superstar in Limerick. You know, but in a couple of years' time, when he's walking up O'Connell Street, guys will say, oh, is that Keith? What used to he do, do you know? will say, is that Keith? What used to he do? So for Keith, for Keith or for any guys who've been in that position,

your whole identity is no longer what it used to be. So there's a huge strain psychologically on your whole sense of self and your identity. And that has to be coached and nurtured over the, it's too late to start the day you give up rugby. You have to start long before that. So the whole thing is to make sure you don't over-invest in your ego.

Your self-esteem. Yeah, your ego doesn't get over-invested in your identity as a rugby player. So Keith has a balanced life, so everything isn't about the rugby. And so the person was asking, before, during, and after your career, you need to make sure

you have a balanced sense of yourself, that if you over-invest everything, no more than students in the university here, if they invest everything in their academic success, and the qca goes wallop up for example then they lose all sense of of self-esteem again because they've over invested in one aspect of their identity and and if you do that then everything balances on that and if that goes you're done left nothing so what what i do for that so for me obviously this plastic bag is a great fucking help this plastic bag is blind by then the plastic bag

comes off and tomorrow morning i'm arguing with the manager in aldi and i get to do that it doesn't become oh there's that prick man arguing about the size of the carrots i'm just i'm a nobody doing it and it's perfect and it works for me this bag is literally how I can separate my two identities and how I can not become the spectacle that I am on the internet or on telly or whatever and I've always

had a reasonable check on that you know but I forgot what I was going to fucking say now because I started thinking about fucking carrots and LD yes what I always going to fucking say now because I started thinking about fucking carrots and LD. Yes. What I always do to remind myself is... So, like, sometimes, like, if I do something and I get praise, it can be very difficult to not get that praise

and then go, you're fucking class, you're brilliant. Look at this good review you got. Look at these good comments. You're a great person now. I know that that's dangerous if I start feeding into that, because if I feed into the positive critique, I guess, then the negative critique hurts twice as much. So what I have to do instead is focus on what I call my intrinsic worth. So there's a worth inside of me and it's no greater or lesser than anyone else's worth what i always compare it to is um do you know the way all babies are class every single baby is

utterly amazing every baby is beautiful they all radiate with this wonderful perfect babiness that you could never weigh up against another baby it's just they're fucking class every fucking one of them they're amazing they're brilliant that to me is intrinsic worth all of us are born what that is really is what makes babies so class is it's just life all a baby wants is i want to feed i want to go for a shit and I want to have a cuddle or a laugh and if I'm sad I want to cry and that's it and a baby doesn't care about what anyone thinks of it a baby's not comparing itself to other babies a baby isn't thinking I'm gonna buy myself a nice class hat next week and everyone's gonna think I'm brilliant brilliant. They don't have it. It's pure, the ultimate needs that you have as a human being. And that's intrinsic worth. And every fucking single

one of us was born with that beautiful thing, right? It never leaves us. We still have that wonderful baby worth that you're born with. But what happens is then you get to fucking school, you're three years of age, all of a sudden you're comparing yourself to other children, you start to formulate a view of yourself, I'm better than that person, but I'm worse than this person, look at their class hair, look at their shit hair, and then the toxicity comes in, and then the negative emotions come in, then you start acting out with anger when you're feeling secure, but that little baby never leaves so that's what i always try and focus on i have this intrinsic worth that everyone has and it's no greater or lesser than anyone else and if i can live my day trying to get value from that no aspect of my behavior defines my worth do you get me so

that's one thing i really focus on to to be fucking human and maintain happiness, I suppose you'd call it. But I don't even believe in the phrase, can you be happy? I don't think happiness is a thing that you can achieve. Like if you say to yourself, if I do this, I will be happy. If I can just get this, I will be happy. That's harsh shit. I don't even think happiness exists. I think what I'm searching for isn't

happiness, meaning. If I engage in something that gives me personal meaning, part of that meaning is actually quite a bit of suffering and sadness. Like, what gives me meaning? Fucking writing a book. I love writing a book. But part of that process contains quite a lot of pain quite a lot of failure quite a lot of stress quite a lot of worry but when i get to the end of a book and i'm finished i feel really sad the end process of having it done or selling it that fucking feels like shit that actually feels empty it feels like death the joy is the process of doing it and that's not happiness it's meaning do you know what i mean yeah no i really i relate to that like it took me a long time to win win i was playing for i missed out in two championships with ireland uh they won it in 2014 and 2015 and

i missed it being injured but as you said said there, and then we won it, we won the Grand Slam in 2018 and I remember being on the field and I was like, this is what I've wanted and I've achieved it. And I feel empty. And I feel empty.

But what I loved was, I always promised my kids that we'd walk around the field one day with a trophy and that's what we got to do. But I felt empty that sometimes the journey is just the better part that's the journey yeah the journey as well it's not all happiness the journey is pain suffering rejection doubt sure that's what life is like I'm like convinced you you can't get success without

suffering everyone's gonna suffer no matter how happy you are how much money you have you're going to suffer it's one stage when you're when one of your cats dies you're going to suffer you're going to be sad like you know something small 100 million lads I fucking lost a cat lads in

2015 and I'm still not over it yeah yeah and everyone you know some people are better at dealing with suffering, like, you know, and sometimes, sometimes it's just all about the journey, all about the process, and sometimes when you hit your goal, it's kind of like, you're sad.

You're sad, because the thing is, sometimes meeting a goal that you've worked at reminds, it reminds me of death. That's what it feels like. It reminds me of this is the end, and I want to think about the next thing. But just on the subject of suffering, one thing I try to do is, I try to differentiate between necessary suffering and avoidable suffering, right? So, necessary suffering is is there is suffering in being

alive and that's so you're gonna get rejected you're gonna be disappointed by people you're gonna disappoint yourself people you fucking love are gonna die that's if you can't escape that lads every people you love are gonna fucking die and it's tough that's the unavoidable suffering of existence. I had my first panic attack thinking about that I was 12 years of age I remember I was in my primary school uniform and I was sitting down, I was watching

Hey Arnold or something on TV and I remember looking at the fireplace and my mother had a little little dog ornament and I remember looking at it and I'm like when I die I'll never see that again and then I was like oh my god when I die or my parents die ornament and I remember looking at them like my do you'll never see that again and then I was like oh my god when I die or my parents like I will never see him again what what's going on and next thing I just started yeah like when

you're crazy thinking like it's all bit sick thinking but like your parents die in the morning I know I think you've lost your father have you yeah yeah yeah like something you've been around so long, when you die. But that's the challenge of being alive. In 100 years time, or 200 years time, what were you like? That's what freaks me out. What I find with that is, so that's the suffering of existence that you can't avoid, right?

Here's the thing about that type of suffering. So my dad died when I was 19, no, 20. And it broke my fucking heart. But the amount of meaning that I got from his death. Do you know what I mean? From all that fucking pain and suffering i'm a i'm i am who i fucking am i'm a different human being because my dad died and i don't even believe in heaven or hell so i have to accept that he's fully gone but one thing i do believe in is rippling so my ma will

hear me talking on the radio or whatever and she'll say you sounded like your dad you sounded just like your dad so he's not dead like he is but his mannerisms his way of thinking his ideas they ripple and they live on in me they live on in my brother they live on in anyone he's touched so there's no so i get great meaning in that and it's shaped who i am but to the topic of unnecessary suffering that i was talking about so this is the necessary suffering of existence we can't avoid it necessary suffering is painful but it always has fucking meaning unnecessary suffering this is and so if I go for a jog I go for a jog up along the river behind the college two three times a week if I if I'm going for a jog and I brush off a plant that I have an allergic reaction to, right? So this brushes off my leg and it gives me a little rash. That impact is the unavoidable

suffering of existence. I can't avoid getting a sting off a nettle or a lash of a plant. That's the unavoidable suffering of existence. However, if I get home and I decide to start scratching at it, and now I have this wound from a plant, and I'm scratching at it, and now it's bleeding, and now it won't heal, that's the, what is that one? That's the avoidable, that's the avoidable suffering of existence. I'm creating that pain. A triggering event has happened, which is unavoidable. I'm creating that fucking pain. And it's the same with mental health. So if I get a disappointment in life, or if I get rejected by someone, and the meaning that I subscribe to that event, if the meaning to that is excessively fucking negative i'm scratching that wound i've now

created all that pain and the thing is with that pain it can be never ending and you'll find fuck all meaning in it if like if you're doing a fucking match and you make a bollocks of something and then for the next two fucking months all you're doing is thinking about i made a bollocks of this i'm a terrible person i this, it's going to happen again nothing good comes from that, it's fucking worthless shit it's weird

I'd be a fan of law of attraction, I'd be a fan of you're going to think negative, it's going to happen and that's why I'm all kind of in 2018 um I did a bit of work with Keith Barry you know it was easy and I know I did a bit bit of work with deck but I did a bit of work with Keith Barry like I didn't know how to visualize

you're all like is this hypnosis stuff no he didn't hypnotize me he was just you know it was it was again it was breathing and then I'd visualize and I'd visualize games I'd visualize getting man of the match I'd visualize lifting trophies and 2018 was the best season I've ever had in my life and I'd and I spoke to Keith about it and I told him he's like why would you get like to get out of this personally um I'd visualize myself getting player of the year for Munster visualize myself getting player of the year for Munster, visualized myself getting player of the year for Ireland. At the end of the season, the two of them things happened. But people might think it's mad,

but maybe when I was writing it or I was thinking about it so much that my behaviors were just guiding me that way rather than law of attraction, you know what I mean? That's where I go with it because I feel a similar way. I don't go full law of attraction you know what i mean but that's where i that's where i go about it because like i feel similar way i don't go full law of attraction but when my mental health is in check like here's the big one for me so if i let my mental health go to shit right and an opportunity comes so the thing with my job like i'm self-impled everything is about opportunity i'll get a phone call do you want to have a go at this if my mental health is bad and i view the world from a threat point of view i'm going to turn it down there's lots of opportunities will come to me if my mental health

is bad i will say i won't be able to do that no no no if my mental health is good then i'll say fuck it yeah i'll give it a. What's the worst that can happen? And when I do that, all of a sudden opportunities come and I'm taking them. I fail. I don't give a fuck about failure because my self-esteem is in check.

And all of a sudden success has happened out of that. But if I'm in a bad way, I can see myself. Self-sabotage. Self-sabotage. I can either self-sabotage or I can try my best and it depends on where i am from it from an emotional point of view that's why there needs to be an art

an art psychologist that's why there needs to be a psychologist for artists but i don't think there's enough money made by artists for the government to start going. It's the same principles, whether you're an artist or a rugby player or whatever you are in life, the same principles that apply. And what you've been describing, even when you talk about babies, earlier I was just thinking, well, the difference between a baby and people here, for example, is that they don't have an ego. So the ego is the big uh the big elephant that we all need to deal with and so and it intrigues me because the ego our perception

of self our perception of ourselves no the ego is basically that part of us that makes makes meaning and purpose in our lives yeah so we develop it over time but the ironic thing about our ego is that we start off with no ego we have our aid we develop over 10 or 20 years we develop a really big ego and lo and behold when we get a fully developed ego what do we have to do we have to let go of our ego so it's this it's it's very ironic it's very cruel twist of fate but the only way you can progress and mature is letting go and they're the moments you've described is where your ego doesn't come into it then you can progress and mature is letting go and they're the moments you've described where your ego doesn't come into it then you can move on but people

get too attached to their ego and if they do that they get stuck but the little baby has no ego and that's why they're so just comfortable at ease in the world and the idea is to try and get back to that state having come through this whole journey of growing up I have three little girls at home

and like we were talking about babies there, and he goes, whether I play a good game or a shit game, I walk home. And they don't give a fuck. And they don't give a shit. They're just like, they're hugging me. They love me no matter what's going on. And I'm just dead to them.

You know what I mean, Dev? But part of your journey and my journey as well is so they're your little daughters right but also little tiny keith was that as well and for little tiny keith to also give big keith the hug going and give a fuck if you're in monster rubbing give a shit man you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah no yeah and that's what all of us have to do and i have to go to little tiny blind boy to go and give a shit about your books and give a fuck do you know what i mean and that's the that's the wonderful journey of life i think the inner child and the inner child that's where playfulness comes from like when i'm writing and i describe

that feeling of flow that's my inner child that's me when I was two playing with Lego and I didn't care about whether it was good or bad and when you're out on the pitch at the top of your game, I'm guessing it's the same thing it's your little child inside going I fucking love movement I love this, something about this is crack

and I don't care if it's good or bad and then lo and behold you do something good it's like when you're playing soccer or playing rugby when you're young like up until I was a professional and even my first couple of games with Munster it was some crack

I was like this is some crack that's what I want to ask you and then it's the interference of having a shit game and then the media are coming after you and then you're like this is ruining my life this is shit crack so i'm guessing with yourself so when i was we'll say three or four i started figuring figuring out i'm handy at drawing i like music i'm guessing for you you're three four you start learning how to walk and run and it's like this is crack soccer whatever you're doing outside in the field this is

unbelievable crack and i love it is that true yeah yeah it is and so at what point of that at what point in your career do you have a bad game or whatever and then all of a sudden you start to experience feelings of i am a bad person yeah i'm a bad game when i became a professional rugby player yeah like as I said there the whole way up I remember playing schools in the Senior Cup like in Toman Park when you're 17 18 and there's a couple of thousand people there

and you're all week you're like I can't wait for this, absolutely can't wait for this and then you go on and you're playing for Munster in Toman Park, something you wanted to do all your life and you might have had a bad game and the media are coming after you and next thing you're playing for Munster in Toman Park, something you wanted to do all your life, and you might have had a bad game, and, you know, the media are coming after you,

and next thing you're in the cubicle before kick-off thinking, I wish I was in Benlanti there with the boys, fucking hanging around, fucking drinking cans or whatever. And that's happened. I've went out, I've had... Freedom and fun and playfulness is going on when you become professional. You're worried because everyone in the audience is, everyone watching the game is going to have an opinion and you're going to get their opinion,

like whether it's abuse on the sideline. And, you know, we talk about not looking at social media, but it's going to get there somewhere. Someone will send on a WhatsApp, look at that fella's after saying about you. Leave me alone. I don't need to hear what people are saying about me online. Yeah, exactly.

And like I played, like I was 21. I was quite young. I went on the Lions Tour, which is the best players from the four countries, England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. And I went on that Lions Tour and it was the best and the worst thing that happened to me. I went out my first game. And I mean to say, if you have seen someone, I had the worst game in my life.

I was playing for the Lions and I was like this is hell. Then the media come after me and then it was just a downward spiral and I hated rugby for years and it was like that year I couldn't get out that thinking that you know, I was't get out of that thinking that, you know, I was always stood out my whole career, like as a young flag coming up through, and even my first season at Munster, and then that Lions tour, that one game, like derailed me for five or six years.

I didn't know how to manage my emotions. Fuck me. And I had a rugby, and it was to that point where I talked to my father and he then, my wife said, I'm giving this up because this is ruining my life because of who I play for. This thing that I love is now a source of pain. Yeah, it's because I care about Munster so much, I care about Ireland, I just, I can't get away from it and it's not enjoyable anymore. And where are you now with that shit when you play?

I don't care about it anymore I don't care about rugby which is weird because rugby is what I do it's not who I am I prefer to keep the human I stopped caring about rugby no it doesn't mean I always put in the effort.

The emotional attachment. Yeah, exactly. The unhealthy emotional attachment. Yeah, exactly. The unhealthy. When Anthony Foley passed away in 2016, when he first took over, we had a horrendous season. We were just trying to qualify for Europe,

never mind trying to win it. And the abuse that man got. And then when he passed away like everyone would say it didn't really like rugby didn't matter like you know there's a wife and there's two sons after losing their father like rugby and even talking to paula connell now like it's irrelevant really in in real life rugby like obviously yeah there's people show you like livelihoods and stuff but yeah I just go now and as I said there if I prepare and I still play shit I can deal with that now like you know whereas years ago I just thought talent was enough I go and I play a shit game um and I beat myself up because I was like oh why did you you didn't need properly this week

you took a shock but I trained but if you can tick all the boxes, and then you go and you lose, then you can live with that, but yeah, it's not my life anymore, even though I'm still in it, and I'm enjoying it, but Keith Earl is the human, is more important than Keith Earl is the rugby player.

I'm going to open the questions up to the audience can we have the house lights up a tiny bit and we've got a roving mic you can pass the mic around if you like like a little collection box but you put a voice into it instead I have a question about breathing so all three of you mentioned

the importance of breath work so obviously in your personal life that's helped you but i suppose keith how has that helped you through sports but also how has that helped you mentally as well in both aspects yeah i've gone i've there's there's a lot of different breathing techniques i have a breathing technique for for when i'm training and i have a breathing technique for when I'm training, and I have a breathing technique for when I have anxiety, and then I have a breathing technique when I just want to be still.

Like last night, I did a breathing session, and I said to Blimey, the only way I could describe it is, you know, I don't know, like, it's a bit dark again. Like, I've watched two of my grandparents die, and, you know, when they give them morphine to leave them die in a relaxed state, but the nurse is saying, still talk to them, because you're conscious, I did breathing last night, and that's what it, that's what it felt like, it felt like, it felt like I was just being it. I wasn't even in my body. It was weird.

And I know I'm probably freaking people out. But when you go back and you do your research and you look like breeding thousands of years, it's trying to be all different kinds of breeding. Even the rosary, man. The rosary started off as nuns doing breeding exercises. It did? I don't know. Yeah. It did? I didn't know that. Yeah.

It's just different, like getting after different parts of the nervous system where you want to relax or get the adrenaline up. Yeah, it's the best thing I do. You're breathing. It controls everything. I'm definitely going to start. I'm like a breathing virgin in that I just do you're breathing it controls everything and i'm definitely going to start like i'm like a breathing virgin and in that i just do the regular breathing that i'm doing now and then like just basic meditation but listening to the two lads tonight like i'm going to start getting into more advanced breathing yeah and start breathing with my arse i mean certainly

it's and to keep it simple i mean the breath work is is so basic i mean first of all there's no one in this room that isn't breathing so we all have to breathe and it's a very simple thing i brought the corpse of ronnie drew with me but simple what they call diaphragmatic breathing it's just breathing into your belly it's just a simple little exercise breathing into your belly because most of us get panicked and anxious because we're breathing up here just even a simple thing of being able to breathe into your belly it's so basic and i'm surprised particularly asthmatics who never even learned to do diaphragmatic breathing but that's the one i said earlier you just feel your tummy expanding yeah but but what it does blind by the why breath work is central to all these different practices is because it it's the

one thing that's in the here and now all right so the there's the one thing you can be sure of if you want to be in the present moment is to check your breath because that's always present so that's why it becomes an anchor it's a place to come every time if you ever get panicked or freaked out by anything the one thing to come back to is your breath because it'll always be present you can't be breathing in the future in the past so that's why it works and so and it's part and parcel of all psychological therapies will you know they'll come back to doing good breath work and meditation i've been doing for 30 35 years and i i would say that it's probably the most important thing i've ever learned in my life what would you say to

someone someone who's never thought about breath work at all, and you're just hearing it here tonight, what would be a good first step? The first step would be one or two minutes of sitting and paying attention to your breath. Just notice that you're breathing. So basic mindfulness meditation, basically. Yeah, but mindfulness is breathwork. When you're talking about breathwork, mindfulness is central to that. Yoga is another evolution of that. Of course, yeah.

They're all part of the same system. You know, breathwork comes from, the whole focus comes from Eastern traditions. And yoga and breathwork, pranayama, ujjayi, all these practices come out of yoga tradition. And they're simply ways of coming into the here and now. And if we can all be in the here and now,

we'll be okay. It's to give it time as well dick isn't it like it's like going to the gym oh practice it's not you're not going to get better in a week 100 absolutely we i have people who'll say oh i did a mindfulness course yeah and they did it five years ago i'm saying yeah but what are you doing now if you don't i mean you know if you don't keep it up keep yourself no more than you know he keeps fit by keep training and then he can play but once he stops training his fitness is gone and that's the end of it you have to keep practicing

because a block sometimes when i when i speak to people who've had a go at mindfulness or meditation some people stop because they they hear people speaking about it and they like we'll be speaking about it and it sounds incredible you're like going fuck me give me some of that but when you go at it with that attitude as if it's a drug as if it's something you take often your first attempts are gonna like I guarantee you my first ever meditation I did not get to the place of mindfulness at best I would have achieved slightly better calm than being in a panic attack but it took time like going to the gym

it was about three weeks before I can meditate and get to that lovely calm space so you do have to build it up and if you begin doing it and it's natural to be thinking I'm shit at this, this isn't working that's actually the first barrier

and then the key is you're breathing and you go i notice that my mind is telling me i'm shit at this so i'm not going to react to this what i'm going to do is i'm going to notice it and it's going to pass me by like a fucking leaf on the river and then when you get to that that's when you get into that fucking mad can you know like i've experienced incredible stuff and i was meditating there down behind here down by the river and i'd been meditating for about three months straight and i came out of the meditation and woke up not woke up but it kind of feels like waking up and the first thing i saw was a nettle i've never experienced so much empathy for another thing in my life i saw this fucking nettle

and i felt like it was a brother but seriously that that's what it was able to do to me i had that little five seconds of a deep genuine understanding of everything in the universe is connected i don't know what it is but this nettle here is so, I love this nettle and this nettle loves me. And it was a beautiful thing to happen because I didn't control it. It just happened. And then afterwards it was just, it was beautiful. It was like how people describe ayahuasca or DMT or something like that. It's just, it happened in Plassey for five seconds without needing to take anything. So we're going to call it a night now, right? Thank you so much to my wonderful guests. night now, right? Thank you so much

to my wonderful guests. Thank you, Keith. Thank you, Declan. I want to... I want to thank Keith for your fucking, for your honesty. I was terrified of doing this tonight because like I said I'm like fuck it what if I say something like linebacking when referring to rugby which I did but it was wonderful that me

and you were talking about separate things but me doing art and you doing rugby we were like right in the middle it's the same fucking shit man we're still both following our passions and the challenges are the exact same. And then for Declan, fair play to you for just sitting back and being a psychotherapist. You just sat back and supervised. You're like, I'm not going to intervene in this,

which was absolutely beautiful because I wasn't expecting that. So fair play to Declan for that. That was wonderful. He was like everyone's granddad. Thank you. Thank you so much to Keith Earls and Dr Declan O'Hearn for that fantastic chat

it was gorgeous to step outside of my comfort zone to challenge my assumptions and to challenge my limitations

around something like rugby em I thoroughly enjoyed that so I'll catch you next week I'll be back with I don't that so I'll catch you next week I'll be back with I don't know what I'll be back with, maybe a hot take

we'll see what the crack is right now I'm currently I mean, I'm over in Spain writing, I have to get several thousand words from my head and put them onto a page which is something I thoroughly enjoy I'll catch you

next week, in the meantime enjoy the long evenings if you see a cat say hello if you see a dog rub a dog, rub a dog but only if the dog wants to be rubbed not like a strange dog, not like a dog you don't know

even though some dogs you don't know you reckon, oh I could rub that dog he looks like he's ready for a rub i'm always cautious around that so if you are going to be rubbing a dog know what you're doing but once you have been given that permission by the dog to rub him enjoy it enjoy that beautiful dog human connection all right I'll catch you next week. Rock City, you're the best fans in the league, bar none. Tickets are on sale now for Fan Appreciation Night on Saturday, April 13th when the Toronto Rock hosts the Rochester Nighthawks at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton at 7.30pm.

You can also lock in your playoff pack right now to guarantee the same seats for every postseason game and you'll only pay as we play. Come along for the ride and punch your ticket to Rock City at torontorock.com. Thank you.