The Charlie Kirk Show - Charlie Debate Throwback: Charlie on the Bible

Episode Date: February 28, 2026

Charlie was the rare conservative pundit with a deep expertise on the Bible and what it says. Over and over, he fielded questions that sought to box him in on abortion, immigration, and more using the words of the Bible. And over and over, Charlie skillfully answered using rich understanding of Scripture. This episode compiles a highlight reel of Charlie's best Prove Me Wrong answers involving Biblical argument on hot-button issues.   Watch every episode ad-free on members.charliekirk.com! Get new merch at charliekirkstore.com!Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

My name is Charlie Kirk. I run the largest pro-American student organization in the country fighting for the future of our republic. My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth. If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're going to end up miserable. But if the most important thing is doing good, you will end up purposeful. College is a scam, everybody. You've got to stop sending your kids to college. You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible. Go start a turning point USA college chapter. Go start a turning point you would say high school chapter.

Go find out how your church can get involved. Sign up and become an activist. I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade. Most important decision I ever made in my life and I encourage you to do the same. Here I am. Lord, use me. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go.

The Charlie Kirk Show is proudly sponsored by Preserve Gold, the leading gold and silver experts and the only precious metals company I recommend to my family, friends, and viewers. So my stance today is on immigration. I think that immigration contributes a lot to America. So my parents did come here legally, and they right now are in the process again, and it takes a long time.

No, they came here legally, like they came with their visa, and now they're renewing it, and it's a different process right now. So I'm really religious. I'm Catholic. My parents grew up that way. And in Matthew 2, 13 through 15, it talks about how Jesus had to flee Nazareth, or no, Bethlehem, sorry.

He had to flee because someone was going to die. And they were looking to kill him. And he had to flee his own country and leave everything behind because the angel spoke to Mary and Joseph that they should leave. So a lot of people do that. That's why they immigrate to the United States. A lot of people have to leave everything behind because not everyone just wants to pack up all the things and leave.

Right now I personally would hate if I had to sell my car, my house, leave my parents, leave my friends, and leave everyone. So I just want to know what your stance is on that, just because in the Bible it talks about that. Right. So first of all, Jesus actually didn't emigrate. He stayed within the confines of the Roman Empire because Egypt was actually under Roman jurisdiction. That's a separate point. But there are plenty of verses that says you should welcome the stranger, and so I will grant you that.

I guess the first point I would have to ask is, should immigration always benefit the home country? I think so, yes. And that is one thing that I looked into. So there are immigrants right now working here, correct? and they get some of their paycheck cut off, right, because of Social Security and all those benefits. But they don't get those benefits because they're illegal immigrants. So do you mean legal or illegal immigrants?

That distinction is very important. Illegal. They don't get those benefits. So let's just be clear. If they have a Social Security number, how'd they get that? The right way. They stole it. You don't get a Social Security number as an illegal period.

It does not happen. They stole it. So that's an act of theft. So they stole an American Social Security number. security number to be able to work here, which drives down wages, which drives down opportunity costs. But even beyond that, we just have to look at their action. They were not invited to come to this country. They broke in line. They cut in line. And we should not reward line cutters or border jumpers. We should reward people like your parents that actually came here legally

to this country. Yeah, I understand that point. I really do. But sometimes people generally need to leave their country. Because in like my mother's case, for instance, there was like a terrorist attack on my family. And that's the reason my mom had to come. And thankfully, she did get it immediately. But now I've heard of so many stories where people have to wait like 10 years, 20 years, even 30 years. Like my grandma right now is trying to get the process. And thankfully she is now. But it's taken her about 10 years now. And she makes enough money in her country and she just wants to come here as a tourist. That's the main reason. And I do understand that I think that my main point is how we should implement more money into the immigration system. Because Trump's zero

tolerance policy, that just felt cruel because there's a lot of people here that are doing well and zero tolerance. They just had to leave the country. I feel like that was infamined of him. Yeah, but it's not their country, though. And that's the, so let me just, here's a, if I went to Mexico without being invited or allowed and I took a job and the Mexican government found out, what would the Mexican government do to me? I'm not sure. They would send me back to America. And why was the reason you left the U.S. first? So reason, that's an interesting thing. Is there ever a legitimate reason, in your opinion, to commit a crime?

No. Well, then the reason doesn't matter. Because under that, say, so can you rob a bank because you wish you had more money? No, you work harder. Then why doesn't that moral standard apply to immigration? Because the system isn't doing its job. That's why I think we should implement more money. Because there is some people, like I do get it.

You know, some people come here, and then I do admit some of them commit crime, but not all of them. No, no, but they're all criminals if they came illegally. That's the distinction. By definition, they're breaking federal law, 8 U.S.C. 13, 12. Just their presence here is against the law. Would you be okay welcoming and 500 million people into America? That's why we should implement the system to understand each person's case. Do you think 500 million people would be too many people?

500 million? I don't even think that would fit the United States. I agree. And that's the point, is that if everyone all of a sudden declared that their life was in danger, we'd have to let in, like, all of Nicaragua, all of Honduras, almost all of Venezuela. The standard all of a sudden starts falling apart. And we find that people lie about this, they deceive it.

Here's my perspective. Why don't we try to empower those people to make the countries they're coming from greater and stronger else this problem will actually never be fixed at the root level? Does that make sense? It does make sense. And I wish it was that easy. So for instance, I am part Peruvian and in Peru. So they were having a presidential election.

And the president who was going to win was better for the country and would help out a lot more. But since it's corrupt, they made the other president win. They sent him death threats, nearly almost killed him. He had to fake his death and leave and they jailed her. They jailed her completely and they let the guy win. That is why it's corrupt. It's hard to fix a country when there's no help towards it. So Peru was.

They were rooting for the good president. They were rooting to build their system back up. But the other president, it was rigged. It was completely rigged. So does it make it better or worse if millions of people leave that country? For Peru? Can you, like, what do you mean by leave? If three million people left Peru, does Peru get greater or weaker?

Stronger or weaker? Neither. I mean, it's in a weak state right now. I mean, it's pretty obvious. I'm trying to even say that mass immigration is bad for everybody. It's bad for America and it's bad for the country that people are leaving from. The only difference is that they send back American money through remittances that actually subsidize this entire thing. Let me ask one final question. If somebody comes into America without invitation and they are illegal, what do you think the penalty should be?

I think it's humane to look at their case and why they had to leave everything they've ever known. We believe that we should send them back to their country of origin. I just want to make one more final point. So I do understand that, but my final point is that do you agree that we should implement more money to the immigration system? No, I think we should have no immigrants in the country for the next 10 years. We have way too many people in this country. And I'll prove it to here in California. Your hospitals are overrun.

Your schools are overrun. Do you guys agree that you have a crowded state right now? We are a... California is a cluttered state with social services that are being strained. And we need a pause on all immigration, in my opinion, to metaphorically digest the major meal that we just ate. Or else we are going to have a... major assimilation problem, cultural problem, cohesion problem, all sorts of issues.

And I know this is a provocative thing to say, but immigration is something that you use as a way to benefit the homeland. You don't have to have immigration. But just as an example, my parents came here, like I said, legally zero dollars, and they have benefited so much to the country. They have made so much like hundreds and thousands of dollars. Praise God, that's the American dream. It is, and it's just like a hard thing to do. And I want American boring young people from UC Riverside to also have that American dream and not have to compete against foreigners for that.

Thank you for your time. Can I say one point? We have a long line. Thank you. Really quick, though. Okay, again, what is it? Sorry. Okay.

I understand the American dream is hard. My parents, my mom was pregnant, working two jobs one day, and she sacrificed everything, and now she has more money than the average American. Praise God. That is the American dream. Thank you very much. It's hard work. Thank you.

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Again, that's 833-850-2229 or click on the pre-born banner at charliekirk.com. I want to talk about the debate of abortion. So I know that it's something very controversial. Some people are pro-choice. Some people are pro-life. Before I start, I want to make sure that I understand your opinion fully so I don't take, you know, what I've heard online. What is your stance on abortion? Life begins at conception. Okay. So where do you, so conception, so is that when sperm enters the egg? Is that during? When new DNA is formed. Okay, when new DNA is formed. So the egg by itself you don't think is anything. Sorry? The egg of a woman by itself, do you think it's anything? Well, it's something, but it's not a life, correct? Okay. That's, okay. So my question is when you talk about abortion and why you

think you so why you support it why you don't support it sorry why you don't support it what do you use as your evidence you use scientific evidence do you talk about the bible do you use both mainly scientific and self-evident reason okay so are you someone who's a follower of the bible i am but that's not relevant to this discussion but we could talk about it if you like i find irrelevant because when i'm going to talk about abortion there's there's quotes in the bible that i think support pro choice in my opinion. Exodus Exodus 21, 22 through 25,

when men strive together and hit a pregnant woman so that her child come out, so miscarriage, but there is no harm to the woman, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as a judge and to determine. But if there is harm to the woman, you shall pay life for life, foot for foot,

burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. So I know that that can be interpreted different ways. The Bible can interpret in many ways. There's different types, different interpretations. But this says if a person causes a miscarriage through a woman, that they will pay for the abortion. So they will pay, another one will punish them. That is not what this law says. But let me just ask, are you a Christian? Yes. Okay. Then continue. So do you believe in the inerrant word of God? Yes. Okay, good. Yes. So it says that as the woman's husband shall impose on him and he shall pay as the judge is determined. So the judge is determined and it's talking about the husband so therefore it's talking about a person, not God himself, not his judgment. So it's saying if someone has an abortion, we have the right to choose what to do to them. But didn't you say it was a miscarriage, not an abortion? It says when man strived together and hit a pregnant woman, so that's causing her to lose the baby. That's a,

outside cause. Outside cause. Therefore, it could mean abortion. Because some people find that aggressive abortion is through violence, such as hitting, because not everyone has access to medical abortion. Was it the intent for them to kill the baby?

It's unclarified, so that I cannot tell you. However, what I will say is that it says that it's the judges determine, the husband determines. So, God's not making the choice for us what to do with the person who does that to someone's child does that to their own child. But it does say that if the woman is harmed, her herself, not the child, then they are liable

by God, their life for her life, their foot for her foot. So what I'm saying is if somebody needs an abortion for health care, let's say a woman's baby's not going to make it. And if the baby stays in her womb, she will die. And they refuse her an abortion. They refuse her that health care and she dies. Should the doctor be liable under God? First of all, those instances don't happen.

So let's just be clear. No, see, you guys are so propagandized by this. That only happens in a very rare case of the breaking of the uterine wall. So it does happen. But no, but where the baby is already dead, and that's the point, is that the baby is already dead. That's a removal of a carcass of a baby. That's also still medically an abortion. No, it's not.

No, it's not. A removal of a carcass of a baby is not an abortion. Those are two technically different things. It is not a DNA. It is not. A DNA is something completely different. But then if you want to talk about scripture, do you think we are bound to all 613 Levitical laws?

Yes, if you're a follower of the Bible, you cannot pick and choose what you follow. Oh, so do you eat kosher? You cannot pick and choose. No. Well, I thought you were bound to all 613 laws. I'm not perfect. I'm a sinner. Everyone here's a sinner.

Well, are we bound to it? Do you think Christians should eat kosher? If you choose to follow the Bible, you cannot pick and choose what you follow. Of course, but we do believe in a new. covenant. So there's three types of Old Testament laws, right? They're ceremonial, they're civil and moral. So ceremonial laws we do not honor. Civil we consider moral we absolutely do. Why do humans decide what to follow when God's the one and it's God's word? It's not us. It's not human. So Paul actually authored in the book of Colossians. That's a human. Right. Inspired by the Holy

Spirit, which wrote the Bible. The ordinances of Moses are nailed to the cross. Secondly, Christ our Lord repeated nine out of ten of the nine out of ten of the ten commandments. And he said all the laws of the prophet hang upon the two teachings of Leviticus 19 and Deuteronomy 6. But now I equally have to challenge you with scripture. In Luke 1, when Elizabeth came in contact with Mary and both were babies, what did it say that John the Baptist did? I cannot tell you that. He leapt. Okay. Do non-babies leap? And the question, I'm going to be honest. Isn't it a baby then worthy of protection if they're leaping?

I suppose? Yes. And it was the Greek word brefos, which literally means baby, intentionally used throughout. Hold on. In Jeremiah, it says, I knew you before you were in the womb. In Psalm, I think, 139, it's one of the most intricate verses about the detail of our formation process as human beings. And finally, because of science, because of biology, we know that human life begins at

that spark of new DNA and God says do not murder and it's incumbent on Christians that therefore protect that life. Okay. So my biggest question is I'm not saying that all abortion is valid. I feel like that's up for everyone to decide. But in the most, even if it's very small percentage, in the very small percentage that a baby is alive, but it has to be aborted for the sake of the mother, what do you think is the right thing? C-section. What is a C-section? A C-section is when you cut a mother's stomach away. Why don't they do that? that instead of the abortion? Because it could be equally as dangerous. Wrong. It's much safer than an abortion and quicker. Do you have evidence? I mean, yes, it's self-evident. Can you tell me? I mean,

again, there's plenty of people that are in medicine can tell you, but like, to be very clear, think about it. Every hospital is equipped to do C-sections. You have to go to a specific place for an abortion, and a C-section, one-third out of everyone in this audience was born by C-section. C-section, C-section save lives, they do not terminate lives. And so when they say, we must abort the baby, thanks to modern technology, that's actually a false choice, you could take the baby out of the environment and try to save its life as a cesarean section.

What if when the C-section happens, the baby's not able to survive on its own no matter what? Okay, well, then that's a separate circumstance. It's like saying if the baby has a heart attack after the C-section. That's not a reason not to terminate it. What do you mean? You have to give everybody a chance at life. You don't kill the baby in the womb just because you think that it's going to, well, it could hurt the mother.

You take it out of that environment. Okay. But what I'm saying is if they take the baby out and they know it's not going to survive regardless. How do they know that post-22 weeks? You don't know that. There's miracles that happen every day in the neonatal. In the neonatal intensive care unit, there's miracles that happen every day in NICUs. And I agree.

There's definitely, they don't know 100% for sure, but there's definitely probability through some. science through biology, that they know, hey, this is more likely going to happen. We don't do morals on probability. I'm not saying it's morality. I'm saying probability of a baby is going to survive or not. It doesn't matter. You don't terminate a life based on a probability of survival. Oh, you do? Interesting. You guys murder people based on probability of survival? Interesting. So somebody on a ventilator should just be murdered? I mean, it's such incredible morality. Would you keep someone on a ventilator for the entirety of everything else then?

It depends. There's two different things. There's no more and not yet. Once you reach the level of no more human interventions can improve this person's life or bring them back to a full life, that is a separate moral decision than not yet. When a human being is at not yet, which they are in the womb, you must do everything you can to make to make sure they get life. When a human being is at no more, it's a completely separate moral dimension and decision to make. No more and not yet are the ways to look at pro-life decisions. Does that make sense? Yes, that makes sense. Well, thank you for debating with me. Thank you very much. Agree to disagree. Hi, folks. Andrew Colvett here.

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He is the founder of an organization called Atheist for Liberty. He is openly conservative, but he's mostly interested in atheist activism and normalizing atheism in all sex, including the conservative movement. He seems to be under the impression that a lot of conservatism, including you, are more hesitant to work with atheist organizations. Is there any truth to that? Yes and no. I mean, if you're an atheist and you want to be part of the conservative movement, go ahead, but you must be an honest atheist and acknowledge that morality is definitionally subjective without a belief in God. You cannot be an atheist and believe in objective morality.

It is an impossibility. And true atheists will acknowledge us. At some point, you have an ought claim. Well, things ought to be a certain way. We as Christians are we that believe in the divine. We have is claims that murder is wrong, whereas an atheist will say, well, murder ought to be wrong, because you can't have an objective definition if there is not a divine eternal power over you. So look, if an atheist wants to fight alongside of us to end abortion or to try and end the mass occurring of our kids that's called gender affirming care, if an atheist wants to march alongside of us to say no men and female sports, they're more than welcome to be able to do that. But atheist for liberty is an interesting phrase because I don't believe you can have liberty without God because liberty is not man's idea. it is God's idea. That's just my own personal belief, and it's also the belief of everything

that built this nation. But yes, I know a lot of good atheists. The question, though, is how do you know they're good? It's because you're appealing to a moral authority above just the secular, material realm, one that is transcendent, we would believe, given by God. Well, I don't believe in objective morality. I do know there are plenty of atheists who are moral objectivists. Are you an atheist? Sorry to interrupt. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. So let me just, can I ask you a question? And I don't mean. I know this is your first time at the mic, so I'm just going to try to be tender in doing this. So you don't believe in objective morality, right?

I personally don't. Okay. Was the Holocaust objectively wrong? Objectively, no, but it would have been better if it didn't happen because most people won't want that to happen. So that's where we are on different planets. And that's okay. I'm not trying to make fun of you. I'm trying to be graceful in the way that we're going about this. Do you think Hitler was objectively evil? No, because it's subjective. But I just hope all of you guys understand he's being an honest atheist to your credit

because as an atheist you're not allowed to say anything is objectively right or wrong. I come from a worldview that when you butcher six million people, that is objectively wrong no matter what. And it's a very important truth claim because when you do not have objective truth anchoring your society, then it becomes a power struggle. If you do not have truth, then power will reign. Whoever can get the most amount of power, then end. ends up having the most amount of say over society. We believe what is objectively right, true, good, and beautiful should be transcendent over society. Your thoughts. So do you believe

objective morality specifically comes from the Bible? Yes and no. It's in nature and the Bible explains nature. So objective morality can be discovered in many different cultures and societies pointing towards what we believe is the ultimate objective truth, Jesus Christ. C.S. Lewis explained this the best in his book, Abolition of Man, which is that almost every religion talks about a certain way to live, a Tao or a path that we should be on. And so more, more simply than just the Bible, we believe in what the founders believed, which is an ethical monotheism, that there is one God, he has a general way that he wants you to live. For example, murdering is bad, kidnapping is wrong, defense of the innocent, and we should do our best to try to

live alongside of that path. Okay, well, I think those are very interesting examples. You bring up the founders, you bring up Hitler, but Hitler was his help-proclaimed Catholic, and he called Nazism a Christian movement. Yeah, I would be careful saying that. He was not. That's okay. He called himself a Catholic. He specifically said in 1927, our movement is Christian.

They had on the belt buckles God on our side. Yet, they said to the almighty God. Atheists were not trusted to be in the SS. Even if I grant you that, despite the fact that he killed a lot of pastors and priests, and there, of course, you can pervert things in the name of God.

No one denounces that. Just as a side note, though, far more people died under the banner of atheism than Christianity in the 20th century. Mao was an atheist. Stalin was an atheist. Pol Pot was an atheist. Believing in no God actually led to the destruction and the murder of well over 100 million people. And that's fine. So, again, if atheists want to come alongside us as conservatives and fight for what is good, that is great, but I will never acknowledge that atheists can tell me what is objectively good.

They can only give me a preference. they cannot tell me what is right. And preferences eventually will lead you towards moral and societal decline. Okay, so I think you just listed a bunch of communists, and it's worth acknowledging the vast majority of atheists are not communists, just like the vast majority Christians are not theocrats who don't support the divine right.

It's also worth acknowledging that the founders were actually inspired by Enlightenment values, not by the Bible. America was founded as a second nation. We were the first, quote-unquote, Ghalis Constitution. Again, I've done this so many times, so I don't know if we want to waste our time doing this, but 55 out of 56 of the signers of the Declaration were Bible-believing church attending Christians.

Nine to 13 of the states of the time of ratification required a declaration of faith in order for you to serve in the states. We were our birth certificate, which is the Mayflower Compact, said explicitly, we are here to spread Christianity throughout the land. It was the first great revival that led to the American Revolution of Jonathan Edwards and Jonathan Mayhew and George Whitfield that preached all across the eastern seaboard. John Adams famously said the Constitution has written. solely for a moral and religious people. It's wholly inadequate for the people of any other. We were a Christian nation that was able to embrace the idea of a free society. God has mentioned four times in the Declaration of Independence. Not only that, Jesus Christ has mentioned in the

Declaration independence, where it says we appeal to the divine judge of the universe, which of course is a direct appeal to Jesus in the book of Revelation. Yes, they were rationalist enlightenment values that informed some of the founders, but it irrefutably was a Christian nation. Maryland was Catholic. Pennsylvania was Quaker. Almost every state had their own like specific type of Christian preference. The idea of an atheist or not believing in any God was an idea that was so foreign to the founders, even Thomas Jefferson, the great deist, he revered the Bible, albeit with, you know, some significant edits. However, the idea of believing in no cosmological or no axiological or no teleological or no ontological being would be a concept that our founding

fathers are not just fine form. They would find it extraordinarily dangerous. Why? Because the French revolution was happening simultaneously as the American Revolution, which was explicitly atheists. They actually recreated their own gods and had, they said, we are going to appeal to what? The God of Reason. And this is my final contention, is that when I talk to atheists, the French revolution is a great example. They literally tried to change the Gregorian calendar to a 10-day week. They went in prison, people of faith. They put priests in jail, all these different sorts of things. They said, we are going to appeal to the God of Reason. Well, how did that work out? It worked out with the guillotine and the slaughter of tens of thousands of people. The French Revolution was one of the

greatest disasters in human recorded history. Contrast that with the American Revolution. Why did the American Revolution create the greatest nation ever to exist in the history of the world? And the French Revolution resulted in a lot of blood and even the killing of their own once leader, Maximilian Rubbed Sbeier. It's because we were anchored on Christian ideas. If you are not anchored on Christian ideas, then don't be surprised and all of a sudden there is no fruit to the harvest that you're trying to create. he ever stepped behind a microphone, Charlie understood something important. Leadership begins with learning. He didn't chase a diploma or a title. He chased truth. Through Hillsdale

College's free online courses, he studied the great works of the classics, the principles of the American founding, and the life-changing truths of the Bible. Those ideas didn't just inform him. They shaped his character, strengthened his convictions, and prepared him for the challenges ahead of one of the courses he took was the Genesis story taught by Hillsdale professor Dr. Justin Jackson. This free online course explores the relationship between God and man. What happens when that relationship is broken and the path toward reconciliation. It's a real college course, rigorous, thoughtful, and accessible to anyone willing to learn. You can take the very same course completely free. Grow stronger in your faith, gain clarity about humanity and your place in the world,

prepare yourself for a life with courage and conviction. Visit charlieforhillsdale.com to enroll today. That's Charlie forhillsdale.com. Learn deeply. Lead boldly. Carry it forward. I'm an atheist, so I disagree with your religious claims. Do you believe in absolute truth? I'm not sure you can provide me just positive evidence that there is absolute truth.

So the answer would be, I'm not sure. Are you absolutely not sure? I'm not sure if I'm absolutely not sure. See, this works if you say no, but it doesn't work if you bottom out in the I'm not, I don't know question. Right. No, but saying you're not sure. you are not even sure if you're not sure. So at some point you're just always have to make a truth claim, yeah?

No, you can just be not sure about everything all the way down. I don't see why you can't. And my answer would be, I think truth is instrumentalist in theory. I think it's a thing we choose pragmatically. For the purposes of discussion, I think you can say, yeah, I think truth exists pragmatically. Regardless of that, I don't see how you get to God. Are you alive? Huh?

Are you alive? I think I'm alive, yeah. Think you're alive? Yeah. Is the sun shining? I think it's shining, yeah. From my frame of reference, it is shining. Notice how none of this...

I mean, notice how you've gotten no steps closer to proving God. No, I'm asking questions, man. Yeah, okay. Yeah, but... Are you sure we did it? Yeah, I'm sure... Are you sure we didn't get close to God? I'm sure in the pragmatic instrumental sense.

How sure are you that we didn't? In the pragmatic instrumental sense, absolutely sure. I see truth as a utility. So there is a truth that's absolute? No, it's instrumentally true. But you just said it was absolute. No, absolutely sure. in the instrumentalist sense of the word truth.

This is a philosophical tradition that dates back hundreds of years, instrumentalism. Yeah, which of course we don't subscribe to. Obviously, yeah. So do you believe that murder is objectively wrong? Epistemologically objective or ontologically objective? Morally. See, you didn't answer the question, but...

Both, both epistemologically and ontologically. But for the purpose of discussion... Okay, so by what you mean, no, I don't think it's objective. Was Hitler a bad person objectively? No, if you mean by... By the way, by the way... Dude, dude, wait, wait, wait, wait. Tread slowly.

No, but he's being honest. At its core, atheists cannot say that Hitler was bad. Can I make the claim now? Notice who here is relying on feelings and knocked facts? Your argument is I feel that Hitler was objective. No, no, I know. No, no, you feel that way. Can you provide me evidence of how you know?

Can you provide me evidence that morality is objective? No, of course I can. Because... Well, first of all, morality is both reason and revolution. and it's built within to us that murder is wrong. Wait, okay. Where's your evidence of that? Wait, wait, I'm so sorry. That's a claim, not evidence. That's a claim.

Okay, we could spend multiple hours, but in the Western tradition... So notice how you're saying by tradition, by those standards, these are all claims of non-truth value. Hold on, yes, they are. We believe that truth was revealed to us. We believe, claim. By God, hold on. But let me... You can keep on interrupting us.

Okay, keep going. But let me prove to you how silly your viewpoint is. Okay. and how self-evidently wrong. Okay. Is it objectively wrong to... When you say objective, what I mean by objective, once again, once again...

Dude, can I ask you something? No, no, no. Notice how you still haven't given me dispositive evidence and morality's objective. You're merely saying, my answer is, I feel that way. Sure, I feel that way. That's all I can know. It's objectively wrong to the laws of nature.

What law of nature? The self-evident nature of existence. Where is there proof that it's self-it? Show me the logical proof that it's... self-evident. Okay, it's in your reason that God gave you in the consciousness and the soul that you have. Prove that God gave it to me. Okay, but again, your existence is proof of that. Again, we can get back down to the first principles of this, but again, but you don't want to because you know it doesn't look good. No, it looks actually really good because built within, built within, again, interrupting does not make you right. But you keep repeating your point. I get your point. No, I don't. So let me ask you a question in closing.

Since you can't objectively say that Hitler was bad or that child. Is wrong. So how did the universe come into existence? I don't know. Okay, but science says that it was a big bang or a beginning point, right? Okay. So using logic, which you believe in. Is this the Kalam cosmological argument? Well, hold on.

Again, you keep interrupting. Using logic, if space, time, and matter had a starting point, then logically, shouldn't something outside of space, time, and matter have started those things? How do you know that cause is personal? How do you know that cause is worth praying to? Hold on. That's not the question. Wait, wait, okay, sure, there is a cause.

Oh, that cause is God because it's outside of space-time and matter. Wait, wait, no, no, no. By definition. You believe in different things about God. You think that God is personal. That's not what we're debating. No, we're arguing about God. We're arguing about Christian God.

Yeah, religion. Hold on, no, no, we're not debating it. We're debating whether or not there's a God or not. No, the Christian God. I said religion, that you're a religious person. You're a Christian in nature. You follow a religious tradition. Calm down.

You said you're an atheist. Wait, no, God historically, Aquinas even defines it this way. It's a personal god. You still haven't gone to me to prove that it's personal. I'm happy to get to that. Okay, then get to it. Look, here's what I find with atheists. They don't want to worship or acknowledge God

because many atheists think they are God, and you embody that really well. I didn't know you were a mind reader, Charlie. This is news to me. It's not a mind reader. I can tell by your behavior. I will say this. I hope that you give your life to Jesus Christ.

I hope you do. I hope you can find evidence. I hope you can find evidence. You know what's interesting. There is evidence. There is evidence that Jesus... Hold on. Last thing.

Do you believe Jesus Christ was a real historical? historical figure. Yes. Do you believe that the Gospels are historically accurate and we can prove them with archaeological evidence? Some parts are, some parts are metaphors, some parts are allegories, some parts are literal. It depends. Some parts are attempts at history.

It depends which book or gospel. Using rational analysis, why would the disciples lie about the resurrection of Christ? Okay, we can talk about this. People, they can be mistakenly wrong about it. So they would be mistakenly wrong up to the point where they get marty, burned, burned, and crucified? The whole point of being mistakenly wrong about something is you believe it's true. All the way up until the point of death?

The whole point of being mistakenly wrong about something is you believe it's true. I just want to make sure I understand your position. Your position is that the 12 disciples who knew Christ best saw him die, and then they all believed a mistaken conspiracy for the rest of their life. All of them together as a conspiracy. Yes. Yes. There is no first-hound account from the 500. The Gospels are all written by these people. People have died for crazy claims in the past that we know aren't true.

These are all facts about history. Correct. Okay, one of the Gospels was written by one of his closest associates, Matthew the tax collector. Luke was a fact fighter that was hired by... No, I didn't say the Gospels weren't written by them. I said there's no evidence from the 500 that he appeared to. There's no first-hand accounts. Again, that's not correct. Thank you for your time. We'll get to the next question. Okay, you can not answer. We will pray for you. Thank you. For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.